Certain to Stir Up Controversy...

MountainDon · March 02, 2009, 02:46:00 AM

I see that the Georgia Bureau of Investigation has arrested four members of a Georgia based group called Final Exit Network. They are charged with assisting suicides. The group dispenses advise to people wishing to end it all. Their focus audience are those living with terminal illnesses, not those who are depressed over being jilted by some boy/girl friend.

I know that some folks are going to be upset by this. Some folks religious beliefs will be telling them that taking one's own life is wrong and that assisting another is a grave sin. I believe it is a matter of individual choice; if one is living with a terminal illness. I'm thinking things like untreatable cancer or other conditions where death is more than likely to occur within the foreseeable future and where a person's quality of life is reduced to a point where they no longer wish to participate. I'm not talking about people who might be depressed for any of a million possible reasons. Depression can make one feel there is no point in living, but most often there is an underlying brain chemistry gone wrong condition that is making the person feel that way. So I'm talking about people who are living with conditions that are too life altering for them to want to bear.

Personally, there are certain physical conditions that I currently believe I would rather not have to endure. If/when they occur I might have a change of heart. I won't know for sure until that point is reached, but I would like to have my options open.

I'm sorry if I've upset anyone with this topic.

Article on the Atlanta arrests
http://www.ajc.com/services/content/printedition/2009/03/01/suicide0301.html

Article related to the above
http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/stories/2009/02/25/ted_goodwin_2006.html

Making Choices About the Final Exit at religion online
http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=566

Euthanasia device
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthanasia_machine

http://www.assistedsuicide.org/

http://www.assistedsuicide.org/farewell-to-hemlock.html

Excerpt from the book 'Final Exit'
http://www.usatoday.com/life/books/excerpts/2007-04-05-final-exit_N.htm?csp=34

Squirl · March 02, 2009, 09:04:21 AM

I do share your opinion Don. I have seen people suffer in life that I would never wish on anyone. They died anyway. Sometimes I wonder why we give animals a more humane exit from this world than we do people.

March 02, 2009, 10:23:36 AM

It's a good topic Don. I think the reason it upsets people is because they don't want to face their own mortality.

It's something I have mulled over for years and after seeing people close to me wither to nothing close to the person I knew, finally die in bed after days, weeks or months of unconsciousness.

I made the decision to NOT live beyond my time. Hopefully, my end will be natural and swift, but when I can no longer walk in the forest, It's time to move on. I have no intention of being a burden on my wife or children.

My mother literally willed herself to death. I watched her deteriorate physically, then mentally and the last straw was when she was forced into dialysis. She went in for two treatments and after the second, she talked to me with more sanity than I had heard for years. After a long chat, she said, "That;s the last time I'M GOING TO THAT SHOW"! And it was.

MountainDon · March 02, 2009, 11:23:17 AM

Quote from: peternap on March 02, 2009, 10:23:36 AM

My mother literally willed herself to death.

Both our mothers (K and I) basically did the same. It took weeks for them to finally pass away.

StinkerBell · March 02, 2009, 12:54:13 PM

I have always had mixed feelings about this. I see this completely different then the abortion issue. I do like to draw the distinction.
I can actually argue both sides of the issue.

March 03, 2009, 12:16:51 AM

I fully support people who are in full control of their faculties to decide about this issue for themselves.

I don't want anybody telling me what I need or can do at that point in my life.

I don't think it is right to force anyone else to do or believe what I believe, and I expect the same courtesy.

sparks · March 03, 2009, 01:10:09 AM

One should die proudly ..........

sparks

rwanders · March 03, 2009, 01:15:13 AM

Does anyone else find it rather odd that the Supreme Court finds that killing an unborn baby is a protected right but, no such right exists for any other person to end their life? That, in most states, you can be forced to participate in an abortion but, in the same states, you can be prosecuted for assisting any other person to end their life? That it is ok to kill a perfectly healthy baby but, assisting another person, sick, suffering and nearing the end of their life is a crime?

Ain't it strange???

considerations · March 03, 2009, 02:19:54 AM

"Does anyone else find it rather odd..."

No.

I fully support women who are in full control of their faculties to decide about this issue for themselves.

I don't want anybody telling me what I need or can do at that point in my life either.

I don't think it is right to force anyone else to do or believe what I believe, and I expect the same courtesy.

March 03, 2009, 03:52:51 AM

Considerations----actually, I agree with you---it's the intellectual inconsistency I find to be strange. However, I guess we have to keep an old legal saying in mind--"Reason cannot upset the law however the law can upset reason." Some say a mark of high intelligence is the ability to hold two rationally opposite thoughts or beliefs simultaneously. Perhaps I am not smart enough to do so

Sassy · March 03, 2009, 04:09:45 AM

I worked in ICU for several years... often saw people who were essentially dead, kept alive on machines - a machine breathing for them, medications that would increase their BP by constricting their peripheral blood vessels (that would sometimes cause gangrene in the toes & fingers because there was no blood flow to the extremities & they'd turn black); gastric tubes, dialysis, arterial lines, other central lines that monitored central venous pressure; fluid boluses to keep the blood pressure up to where the pt was blown up like a balloon, the skin is weeping & peeling, the scrotum looks like a cantaloupe - I could go on but will spare you

Families will insist on doing EVERYTHING when everything that they are insisting on is only prolonging their loved ones death - basically torturing them.

I believe you should keep a person comfortable by medicating for pain, doing interventions that relieve the problems like preventing bowel obstruction.

When there is a possiblity of turning around a person with an acute problem, by all means do "everything" but don't keep flogging a dead horse, sorry, when there's no hope...

That's my opinion having seen some pretty awful things. But then I've also seen some wonderful turn-arounds but very rarely on someone who is already terminal.

That's why I started advising people to make sure they completed "Advance Directives" telling people to think about what interventions they would want done in what circumstances & for how long. It's difficult to think about but easier before you become a vegetable.

I don't believe in euthanasia but I also don't believe in prolonging the death by torture.

BTW, I think the unborn should be allowed to make the choice of whether to live or die when they are old enough to make that decision. Not killed as a helpless baby in the mother's womb.

peternap · March 03, 2009, 07:03:33 AM

As usual, Sassy put it into proper perspective....

I was afraid this would lead into abortion. Since it did, I'll add my 0.02. I am adamant that abortion is wrong. That it is nothing short of murder.....BUT, I am also not arrogant enough to expect MY feelings to be adopted by everyone and I respect their RIGHT to make their own decisions.

Sassy mentioned making advance preparations and this is something we've discussed in the past. When my Father in Law had a stroke, he had a living will but no one could find it. Since My wife was the closest relative, she had to make the decision to pull the plug. It was not easy and she decided to wait a week. This did not make other members who wanted to inherit his money, happy. Things were said that week that split the family in two and to this day, neither has spoken to the other side.

My solution has been to make two identical living wills and power of attorneys and sign each one and have each one notarized as originals.

One is in my wallet and the other is in the safe. Inside every helmet I own is a sticker saying that directives are in my wallet.

apaknad · March 03, 2009, 08:09:35 AM

i agree w/you 100% sassy. i also think a woman is the one who should have complete control of her own body just as anyone else has. no one has the right to tell anyone else what to do w/their own body.
that being said, if you want to abort your baby then you must get their permission.
dan

Terry · March 03, 2009, 08:50:18 AM

Quote from: Sassy on March 03, 2009, 04:09:45 AM
Families will insist on doing EVERYTHING when everything that they are insisting on is only prolonging their loved ones death - basically torturing them.

I believe you should keep a person comfortable by medicating for pain, doing interventions that relieve the problems like preventing bowel obstruction.

I don't believe in euthanasia but I also don't believe in prolonging the death by torture.

BTW, I think the unborn should be allowed to make the choice of whether to live or die when they are old enough to make that decision. Not killed as a helpless baby in the mother's womb.

I agree with you Sassy. I too worked in ICU for many years and saw the exact same things. It is hard for the families to let go of their loved one. When the doctor told me that my dad was dying ( hemorrhaging of the lungs), I asked him to please not let him suffer, so he was given comfort care and medicated for his pain. He died peacefully with the family around his bedside.

I've also seen families at the bedside, their loved one taking their final breath, and fighting over who is going to get the diamond ring their loved is wearing.

March 03, 2009, 10:58:23 AM

On the subject of family members faced with dieing loved ones... My father in law went through months of a prolonged death because one child of his could not believe he was dieing. He did not want to "disappoint" her. Her "love" for him made him rescind his health care directive and so some how he clung to life from October to the following February, fitted with a feeding tube and O2 for most of that time. I suppose that was a bad decision on his part, but I'm certain he would not have changed his mind if he had not been under such loving pressure. Maybe not; right now we don't know. He could not do a thing other than blink his eyes or wiggle a few fingers. He was 86 at the time and had suffered a torn aorta. A surgeon "heroically" saved his life, but he never recovered from the event. No doubt the records do show the surgery as a success, because he made it out of that hospital and into full time nursing care.

Sorry for rambling, but I still get upset when I think back about those months. It got to where I could not bear to visit if that person was going to be there at the same time.

Anyhow, today's paper had a brief note about a couple foind dead and dieing in their home. Looks like a murder suicide. The article mentioned that the woman had a long term illness. Maybe she wanted to die and that was the only out they could see. There's no more details than that, so there's some guessing. But if she was terminal and suffering she should have had a legal way out. My Opinion.

A last note, as well as the health directive one should also have a power of attorney for financial affairs, one that kicks in only when you become incapacitated as determined by at least two medical doctors. And have a second or even third person listed in case the first one is unable to act. Ditto that on the health care directive.

considerations · March 03, 2009, 06:21:09 PM

"Perhaps I am not smart enough to do so"

Hardly, you are a sharp cookie. And I didn't answer very well. This does stir up controversy. You can all hate me or condemn me, but I've had an opportunity to carefully and first hand explore both issues in depth..as they apply to both myself and my immediate family.

If people don't believe in abortion, then by all means, don't have one. Just don't expect that this is the right answer for every person in the country. It's not.

As far as the right to die with dignity, I can only imagine the horrors of some "extraordinary measures" in an ICU.

But even in elder care and terminal illnesses that are managed at home, there are plenty of people who would rather slip away than be bound to a bed, incapacity, pain, and yet feel bound to this existence by law, societal "group guilt", or family members who through sheer force of will bind them to long and needless suffering. Sometimes a person is just "done", and I think it is good to respect that.

I thing I've learned is that no one really knows how they are going to feel about or act in a particular life changing situation until they are personally facing it.

apaknad · March 03, 2009, 06:38:43 PM

no one hates or condems you Con...you are a valued member and your insight and wisdom is always taken into, well...considerations

Sassy · March 04, 2009, 01:41:30 AM

I've been in the midst of fighting families while taking care of their "loved one." Some wanted to keep the person alive so that they could keep collecting their pension, others thought it was the right thing to do. It was sad to see these people fighting at such a time - one side would be asking me questions, talking about the other side & visa versa, so I know what you are saying, MtnDon. That's what made me start stressing the advance directives - so that you have in writing (and should also be discussed with those that need to know) what you want under certain circumstances. The majority of people need the doctor or nurse to explain what is happening, what the options are, what the outcomes may be. Since it has been mandated that doctors talk with their patients about advance directives, I think the docs feel a lot more comfortable doing it.

My mom decided she didn't want anymore surgeries - was on oxygen at home & was very weak due to the poor condition of her heart, but she was where she wanted to be. My dad didn't want any surgery or chemo for his esophageal cancer & he also died at home - he had all the family around. Everyone is going to die sometime - in our culture it is fought against - maybe because a lot of people don't have any spiritual beliefs? I still don't believe in euthanasia but there were a couple times when I gave pain meds or anxiolytics to an anxious person, I know it hastened their death. I remember one in particular - he had end-stage lung disease, only had hours to live more-than-likely & he didn't want to be on a ventilator. He was getting terribly anxious - I gave him a very small dose of ativan per the doctor's order - he relaxed & within an hour he was gone. The family was there, I'd gotten to know them over the past few days & we were able to pray & cry together.

As far as unborn babies - I think that the cavalier manner in which a baby in the womb is treated - something to discard if it's inconvenient or to do experiments on has led to a callousness towards life. I can understand the desperate situations a woman could be in or the total upheaval of a persons life an unwanted pregnancy & child could cause but there is something unnatural about a mother killing her child. A know animals will do it if they think they are in danger, but I think it seriously injures a woman psychologically when she kills her unborn baby. There are a lot of studies out showing women who have had abortions as having a higher rate of depression & PTSD.

The saying "every baby a wanted baby" hasn't panned out either. There is more child abuse than ever, more foster kids, even though millions of babies have been aborted... My sister volunteers in a crisis pregnancy center & does ultrasounds (free) to pregnant women - they also counsel the mothers, help them with finances, find homes for adoption if they don't want to keep the baby, teach parenting skills & give spiritual help.