septic alternative

[Chateau Prideaux]

What septic system alternatives are available?

I just ordered the 20x30 1.5 story plan and I'm building on a slope with continuous exposed limestone (Texas Hill Country) with little if any 'soil'. I use the term loosely as it is generally just small pockets of limestone silt that you could just as easily blow away with the next wind storm.

As you might expect any hope of an affordable traditional anaerobic system is lost as there would be no available leach field. In another area, where we've planned to build the final house, we have 2-3 feet of soil, which didn't pass perc and that septic plan calls for an aerobic system with sprinklers. The aerobic system will also cost about $12-15k and require a service contract.

I've thought about just tying the cabin into that system but it is pretty far away from the cabin site (400') and situated on the other side of the proposed main house. Plus the idea of trenching a 400' line through rock, makes reuse a non-starter.

I'd rather not incur the expense of a second aerobic system especially if it's going to end up being about 1/3 of the total cost.

Anyone have practical experience with alternatives? I figure that we'll plumb to split out the grey water for what few plants we'll have. I'm also going to have a rainwater collection system for the cabin, if that might have an impact.

I've heard about composting and incinerators, but I'd like to know whether there are some practical aspects of those systems that might make them less than ideal (odor, maintenance, etc.).

Finally, I'm building this cabin primarily for my Dad, as his travel trailer is just too cramped for long term living.

[glenn kangiser]

Well-- now if I'd of kept reading I'd have known where you were -- I forgot to say--
Welcome to the forum.

I think the system you mention is one like Daddymem is using in Massachusetts.  Cleans the water up almost good enough to drink. :-/  For a price.

[glenn kangiser]

There is a mound system -- don't know if they would go for it.  You'd have to haul in a bunch of soil.

[Chateau Prideaux]

Love the site, btw. It's reestablished my confidence that I can build a house.

I'd bought another 20x30 plan (for $600 ugh) off a plans site, with zero supporting documentation.

This forum really sealed it for me. Tons of good pics, lots of help. I've been soaking in the forums for a couple days, which is why I'm at work right now, trying to finish that which I'd put off in lieu of thoughts of building bliss.

Do you recall the name of the system Daddymem is using? If not I'll dig and link into this thread.

[glenn kangiser]

I think I can find it- If so I'll post a link here.

[glenn kangiser]

Here it is -- from "Progress Finally" in the owner- builder section.

Daddymem
God Member
*****


Ahmpit of the Cape,
MA

Posts: 866

Major Setback
Reply #55 - Dec 8th, 2005, 3:19am
Well, we have had a big setback.  It appears the Board of Health Regulations I have has a typo.  In my Town we need 150' separation between well and septic, not 100' like the Regs I have say.  So my submitted plans need to be modified.  Problem is, I don't have 150' from my well and the abutting well so our only option besides purchasing more land or clearing up the title for the neighbor behind us so we can get an easement there is to put in an Innovative/Alternative system.

I have chosen the AdvanTex system due to the small footprint and what appears to be high treatment with "low" costs.  Here it is: http://www.wastewatertechnologies.com/advantexax.html (Firefox didn't like their site, IE did)  I should get some design and price information soon.  I'm estimating $15,000 constructed...there goes the garage for several years  undecided  
Here is the State Approval letter for this sytem: http://mass.gov/dep/water/wastewater/w060156.pdf  
Here is a schematic: http://mass.gov/dep/water/wastewater/sfhdwg.pdf
I've seen this in person, it is very small, very sturdy, and maintenance appears to be easy.  Now I have to go out and get an operators license so I don't have to pay someone else to run it.
This weekend I will be adding the details to the plan and it looks like I won't have to modify it too much.  The BOH agent is being awesome.  It looks like if I get this in, he will approve it rapidly.  Let's hope this works.

[Chateau Prideaux]

15K... ouch, I might as well put in a second aerobic system (sprinkler) and water the rocks.  

[glenn kangiser]

Harry built his own system.  Let me find that,  Engineered and manufactured systems are scary.

http://www.countryplans.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1133585177/5#5

Try this - an engineer would have to design it but maybe you could build it.

[homesteadjourney]

Wow - $15,000 to dispose of something my body produces for free.  How about a composting toilet and a graywater distribution system to water the rocks?  Surely that would be less than $15K.  

At that price I think I'll head down to Walmart and buy myself a shovel for $15 and dig myself a deep hole.

Christopher

[Chateau Prideaux]

Wow - $15,000 to dispose of something my body produces for free.  How about a composting toilet and a graywater distribution system to water the rocks?  Surely that would be less than $15K.  

At that price I think I'll head down to Walmart and buy myself a shovel for $15 and dig myself a deep hole.

Christopher

Dude... it's Walmart, they're only $4.99, but you'll need 10 of them to get the job done.  

Depending on the solution, separate graywater is definitely an option. My original post was to get alternative ideas and hear about practical experience with composting and other options. Smell is my biggest concern and, on that point, I never trust the liter-ature (pun alert). To me it could just be a bunch of bad smelling hippies pushing humanure who can't smell the difference anymore.

No offense to hippies, I used to be one (well 2nd generation anyway). We were a bad smelling bunch.

[glenn kangiser]

We separate our graywater - run it to trees down the hill - no smell and no wet spot either.

[Amanda_931]

Composting toilets are nice--mouldering toilets work--see link below.

If well cared for.

You might need dirt to run the official humanure system, though.  Because that one requires setting for a year outside, Jenkins, in Pennsylvania, recommends four-six pallets to make the holding compost pile.  And he is one of the few people who think that urine can and should go into the compost pile.  

There are a handful of Australian systems around, though.  

Also, consider that the water that drains from your house may not neatly divide into toilet and grey-water.  For some people, including I think Art Ludwig and most of the official codes, only washing machine and shower/bath water count as grey, and for Ludwig, at least, not the former on days when you use borax or any kind of bleach, oxygen or chlorine.  Kitchen sinks are too apt to drain greasy water.  Which might not be a problem if you just tossed water onto the plants by the back door, but it would be if you had a grey-water system.   And you don't really need to add more wash water to your plants if you've already had a couple of inches of rain that week.  I don't think Glenn and Kathy have that problem.

Sunny John papers:

http://www.sunnyjohn.com/toiletpapers2.htm#Just%20what%20is%20a%20moldering%20toilet%20anyway?

(they are now recommending using redworms to speed up the composting--after you have filled one container, starting on another.)

[glenn-k]

When we first put it in I was told gray water systems were allowed here -- the neighbor in an expensive fancy house puts his down the hill also.  They have since changed to the fancier Ludwig or other type requirements.

There is never a problem or smell from either place.  Both places are situated in the center of 20 acres and both are on dry land - no streams - well water comes from around 300' deep fracture or more rising to 169' or so in the well - not much danger of any contamination in any manner.  We have an average of 2 to 5 feet of soil over 40 feet of clay (driller listed as soil) over bedrock per well log.

[Amanda_931]

For Ludwig, in any case, the problem is (so much, anyway) not contamination of the ground water, it's just straight out killing the plants, by watering them continually with greywater and increasing the  boron, say, content of the soil to the point where you can't grow much in it.  I don't think he thinks septic tanks are a problem with these compounds.  

And a very simple system would give you less trouble with grease in kitchen sink water than the fancier Branched Chain jobs.

So there may be thousands of people doing very simple greywater systems with no visible problems.

[Chateau_Prideaux]

Here's some links that I've found so far... I'm starting to like incinerators, small, compact low odor, no chemicals.

1500F induced sterility, just be sure to press the buttons in the right order. Ha!

fire good

http://www.wombatnation.com/essays/incinolet.html

http://www.epa.gov/owm/mtb/incinera.pdf#search=%22toilet%20incinerating%22

[Chateau_Prideaux]

Here's someone's very personal experience with an gas fueled incinerating toilet.

http://www.mv.com/ipusers/mvd/dragon.htm

Beware any experience that begins with this thought...  

"Being a little drunk and in somewhat of a playful mood..."

[Amanda_931]

Oops!

[jwv]

How about a Watson's Wick http://www.oasisdesign.net/compostingtoilets/watsonwick.htm ?  The other Oasis Design books are great for graywater information.

Judy

ED:  I fixed the link--thanks for alerting me, Amanda.

[Amanda_931]

In case the first link (I had to search and find it to get it to work--but I sure didn't see any difference when I pasted and copied) leaves you blank about what the thing actually looks like--here's a description in the way of walking you through making one.  And this guy is likely to use crushed limestone instead of pumice.

http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture/2002-October/016199.html

How about a sand filter for kitchen, etc. waste?  I run the washing machine and shower water through a tractor tire filled with sand.  (one sidewall cut off, cut side down)

A little bit here.  Most of what I've found in the past is for treating drinking water.

http://pasture.ecn.purdue.edu/~epados/farmstead/septics/src/page77.htm

[MB25ACRES]

I have to get my permit for my leech field before Jan. 1st after that it has to be a mound system they are saying 15000-20000 for the mound system has to be installed by certified contractor. I asked why they were going to mound and they said State of Ohio was mandating it. MIKE

[Pico]

Check out the Humanure Handbook, online here: http://weblife.org/humanure/default.html

[jwv]

Here's an interesting link with info about soaps, detergents.  

http://www.harvestingrainwater.com/greywater-harvesting/greywater-compatible-soaps-and-detergents/

This link seems to be s-l-o-w for me-but it does eventually load.

Judy

[Chateau_Prideaux]

http://www.owue.water.ca.gov/docs/graywater_guide_book.pdf#search=%22gray%20water%20retaining%20wall%22

Another good link on gray water system. Lots of diagrams and usage tables.

[jraabe]

Excellent PDF booklet on Graywater systems, Chateau_P!

I'm going to add this link to the Resource forum.

[Amanda_931]

Oh, Brad Lancaster is who wrote that page that Judy posted--it is from his web site.

He's got the newest and shiniest book(s--second volume late this year, His publisher Chelsea Green no longer listed the third, last time I looked there) on the subject of rainwater right now.

First book looks good on the subject of runoff and mulch basins, but the third was supposed to have the how-to-do-it stuff on using rain as your household water.  Now not due until sometime in 2008.  I don't think I can wait for it.