Bldg Codes: lay low or consult lawyer?

RRS4727 · November 20, 2011, 03:42:16 PM

Long time "lurker" and finally registered to get some input.

You have some great info!
I want to build a cottage on our property (1 acre long/narrow, already has house, but when family & friends visit, they visit in droves - seems cheaper than an addition)
350-500sf.

I searched the building codes in our area (Wisconsin vacation area)
In calling someone at the county about a "workshop" he said,

Under 18 ft high (no problem)
Under 1,000 sf. (no problem)
No habitable dwellings - running water, etc. (problem!)"

However when looking at the codes, they seem to conflict.
If it is a home studio:
XXXXXXXX County Zoning Ordinance 59 August 8, 2000
(l) Sanitary facilities shall be provided per county and state sanitary code requirements.

(9) Home offices/studios. The use of a dwelling unit or accessory structure for a home office/studio shall be clearly secondary to the residential use of the property and shall not change the property's residential character. The following shall apply:
(a) Home offices/studios shall not require a zoning permit.

HOWEVER, If it's an accessory structure:
"3.12 Accessory structures. Accessory structures are permitted subject to the following:
(1) Permit required. Accessory structures shall require a regular zoning permit except: (.....doghouses....fences, birdhouse, etc)

(2) Living quarters prohibited. Accessory structures shall not contain living quarters.
(g) There shall be no water service, sanitary waste disposal, or electricity connected to the accessory building."

Hmmm. I don't want to be noticed, but I don't want to have to tear down the project after it's done.
I'd get a permit - I'd be too worried otherwise.
Any hints?

MWAndrus · November 21, 2011, 05:09:32 PM

I would try to get a copy of all codes and read them for yourself. Don't take some guy on the phone's word for it. We are also from Wisconsin, and we ran into issues with the county people miss-reading the codes. Also, one other thing to keep in mind is local town codes. I was under the impression that because Wisconsin had a Uniform Dwelling Code that all of the codes would "Uniform". Then I spoke with our building inspector and found out that the town that we live in has more strict codes.

I would talk to the building inspector for your area. He is going to be the guy that is most familiar with code in your area.

November 22, 2011, 10:10:20 AM

Ditto on talking to your inspector.

They typically have no sense of humor and the "ask for forgiveness instead of permission" can put you in a world of hurt.

John Raabe · November 22, 2011, 10:32:04 AM

How are local builders processing their buildings of this size? Go to the local lumber yard and ask for some builder referrals for a small house of the size and type you envision. Call up two or three and talk to them about your project. You will soon find out what goes on at ground level. You may even find someone you want to work with later on.

h0rizon · November 22, 2011, 12:52:50 PM

Just my two cents, but as written per your post,

Quote(l) Sanitary facilities shall be provided per county and state sanitary code requirements.

Quoteshall be clearly secondary to the residential use of the property

I would interpret the former sanitary conditions to be satisfied by the primary residential building having proper facilities - thus the Home studio does not need to have waste facilities installed. IMHO a "home studio" could be your place of work - such as if you are an artist, carpenter, etc. Don't really need living quarters in a workshop.

I ran into the same thing when I called to my local inspectors (NY). I wanted to build an apartment in the garage or a 'builders cottage' to live in while I build the main house. This was fine, until the main house was built at which time I would have to physically rip out the plumbing and bathroom.

But again talk to your inspector

November 22, 2011, 01:16:22 PM

Am I missing something here? You state you called the country and inquired about a 'workshop'. However you want to build a dwelling. Why ask about a workshop when you want to build a tiny house? I am not following your reasoning here.

My area workshops are AG exempt in most cases. And if not used for habitation nor commercial, that is a whole other world. You go in, you show a drawing of what you want to do. This can be hand drawn. It must show dimensions including elevations. He runs some calculations, red lines your plans Walks over to the file cabinet and hands you a packet of paper on AG building construction. Goes over what has to be done with you or your builder. The inspector or county engineer makes a copy. You walk out the door after paying the clerk a fee for the building permits.

Buildings of habituation and commercial WOW whole other world. They must be professionally drawn on substantial paper. Areas of high snow load and wind load have to engineered and stamped. Just to get to the plan review is large. I tried to run one of John Raabe's small house plans through and one from another sites both failed without engineering of course. I did not want to invest in engineering on a small builders cabin while I built the house. Both would have to have been worked up and redrawn and would have had most likely $1000 to $1500. When we are already double that or more on the house engineering.

Side bar: He really would not look at the one from the other site. He was interested in John's. He never really gave me a no! But never gave me a lets do it either! I went off on another project and never really pursued it. We just figured we would live in the old fifthwheel while we built the house. I need to go back over there next month or after the first of the year and get a building permit on a home that is under review. I might run John's by him again then and see what he says. And build a small guest home as we build the house.

But then I guess nothing says your guests can not unroll their sleeping bags out in the 'garden shed'. And nothing says you can not have a port a potty next to it and a close by outdoor kitchen like on a deck or patio. Which is not bad in the summer time but winter time in the great white north is a little brisk!

Keep us informed!

Native_NM · November 22, 2011, 03:07:13 PM

How many nights per year do you anticipate it will be occupied?

muldoon · November 22, 2011, 03:08:00 PM

I do not have much to contribute here, however in general I will only offer that anytime you get a lawyer involved - you should expect that the lawyer is the only one going to be happy with the outcome.

RRS4727 · November 22, 2011, 11:54:43 PM

Quote from: muldoon on November 22, 2011, 03:08:00 PM
I do not have much to contribute here, however in general I will only offer that anytime you get a lawyer involved - you should expect that the lawyer is the only one going to be happy with the outcome.

Good reminder on the lawyer - they'd be the only happy ones (no matter the outcome)

Quote from: rick91351 on November 22, 2011, 01:16:22 PM
Am I missing something here? You state you called the country and inquired about a 'workshop'. However you want to build a dwelling. Why ask about a workshop when you want to build a tiny house? I am not following your reasoning here.

Buildings of habituation and commercial WOW whole other world.

Actually, I didn't want to bring attention to any potential project. I want ummm....a "studio" that might occasionally be used by my family when they visit from out of state. Having a bathroom in the middle of the night....yeah, that would be a lot better than having to find their way through a little dark woods to the house.
I don't want to bring up a "guest cottage" because I'm afraid that would shut things down VERY QUICKLY.

Quote from: NM_Shooter on November 22, 2011, 10:10:20 AM
Ditto on talking to your inspector.

They typically have no sense of humor and the "ask for forgiveness instead of permission" can put you in a world of hurt.

Yeah, I heard one person got in a feud about boundries and had to tear out and move a very long driveway over 2 feet. No asking for forgiveness. Not so much with the sense of humor.
I've seen some....unusual...decision making when deciding who can build what and who cannot. (very small tourist town/area with some vested interests)
In the past, everyone & their brother could put up a cottage in their back yard to rent out. I have NO interest in renting a cottage and I think that's their concern. Our property is not "grandfathered" to do that.
Luckily our lot is all wooded and very private, so it's a little easier.

A small cottage, excuse me, studio (300-500 sf) just seems to make a lot more sense than adding on. Most of the time our space is fine. When kids come w/families and Numerous Small Family Members (NSFM for short;-) everyone is tripping over everyone. The people are one thing, but all the stuff....that's why everyone would like some space.

Quote from: John Raabe on November 22, 2011, 10:32:04 AM
How are local builders processing their buildings of this size? Go to the local lumber yard and ask for some builder referrals for a small house of the size and type you envision. Call up two or three and talk to them about your project. You will soon find out what goes on at ground level. You may even find someone you want to work with later on.

That's a GREAT call - I can contact the local lumber yard. Small, small "studio". Sometimes, once they find out this is a vacation place, they put you in the "You get to pay too much club".
We needed to fix a retaining wall with HUGE boulders (no way could we do this - needed equipment), the difference between 2 quotes was 4 $figures vs 5 $figures!! Luckily we found a rouge guy who was irritated with local govt and to show them, he actually gave us a decent price.

We're goin up this weekend. It's Deer hunting in WI, so I don't know if we'll be able to talk to anyone.

Bonus- our local Technical College sometimes works on projects supervised by journeymen instructors - last year they built a small log cabin a company moved up north to use as a small office. We can do a lot, but ..... I have to check that out as well.

November 23, 2011, 08:36:57 AM

As mentioned, it will depend on Cty. and even town. I'm building in Price Cty. you can have an outhouse there. Vilas Cty. probably not, Onieda maybe as they are on and off in a pissing contest with dnr. It will depend if they just use state code, or add their own. Also get code book, as building inspectors have a habit of interpreting code differently.
Eric

rick91351 · November 23, 2011, 02:20:44 PM

I understand you seem to want to do something under the radar. But have you just came out and asked, "If I built, what is the costs of my permits? If built, what is my tax liability? Hey if it is affordable that is so much better than trying to hide something. It really eases the tenseness of what your are doing.....

Be aware that it is not the county building inspector or tax assessor that will find you in most cases. Guess who? It is your neighbor two roads over that sees something going on. They are the ones that turn you in. We got a real wake up last year. We built a 50 x 26 shop in the hills. All permitted, all above board. Truss package arrived and we swung them up and nailed them off. They are secured and braced off. Next day planing and zoning and the building inspector show up not together but a couple hours apart. Not for an inspection, but we were turned in for code violation. Someone claimed we were building a building with a residence over the shop. Our permits did not allow such.

I said I must have POed someone. They said no we get two or three of these on every building we permit, we get two or three for every building that is not permitted as well. People drive by and see something new and they can not wait to call attention to it. More or less they claimed, that the people are real eyes and ears for compliance.

So where did the rumor come from? Most likely because I had a set of plans such as they described. I had dropped them off in a public place for some other people that were wanting to build something like that up there. It is a two car garage with a real neat living area above. So someone put two and two together and decided that was what we were up to. NOT!

Clearly no room for living quarters but was turned in anyway.