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Irregardless of your religious belief I think there is a lot of truth to what Ben Stein from CBS has said.

I apoligize for the length but it is worth reading.



The following was written by Ben Stein and recited by him on CBS Sunday Morning Commentary.

My confession:

I am a Jew, and every single one o f my ancestors was Jewish.  And it does not bother me even a little bit when people call those beautiful lit up, bejeweled trees, Christmas trees..  I don't feel threatened..  I don't feel discriminated against. That's what they are:  Christmas trees.

It doesn't bother me a bit when people say, 'Merry Christmas' to me.  I don't think they are slighting me or getting ready to put me in a ghetto..  In fact, I kind of like it  It shows that we are all brothers and sisters celebrating this happy time of year. It doesn't bother me at all that there is a manger scene on display at a key intersection near my beach house in Malibu   If people want a crïeche, it's just as fine with me as is the Menorah a few hundred yards away.

I don't like getting pushed around for being a Jew, and I don't think Christians like getting pushed around for being Christians.  I think people who believe in God are sick and tired of getting pushed around , period.   I have no idea where the concept came from that  America is an explicitly atheist country.  I can't find it in the Constitution and I don't like it being shoved down my throat.

Or maybe I can put it another way: where did the idea come from that we should worship celebrities and we aren't allowed to worship God as we understand Him?  I guess that's a sign that I'm getting old, too.   But there are a lot of us who are wondering where these celebrities came from and where the  America we knew went to.

In light of the many jokes we send to one another for a laugh, this is a little different:  This is not intended to be a joke;  it's not funny, it's intended to get you thinking.

Billy Graham's daughter was interviewed on the Early Show and Jane Clayson asked her 'How could God let something like this happen?' (regarding Katrina) Anne Graham gave an extremely profound and insightful response.  She said, 'I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but for years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives.  And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out.  How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand He leave us alone?'

In light of recent events... terrorists attack, school shootings, etc.  I think it started when Madeleine Murray O'Hare (she was murdered, her body found a few years ago) complained she didn't want prayer in our schools, and we said OK.  Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school.  The Bible says thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor as yourself.  And we said OK.

Then Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they misbehave because their little personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem (Dr Spock's son committed suicide).  We said an expert should know what he's talking about.  And we said OK.

Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves.

Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it out.  I think it has a great deal to do with 'WE REAP WHAT WE SOW.'

Funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the world's going to hell  Funny how we believe what the newspapers say, but question what the Bible says.  Funny how you can send 'jokes ' through e-mail and they spread like wildfire but when you start sending messages regarding the Lord, people think twice about sharing.  Funny how lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene articles pass freely through cyberspace, but public discussion of God is suppressed in the school and workplace.

Are you laughing yet?

Amen.

Thanks for posting that Red! 

-f-

This is a good story.

I try to think of the scriptures as more than what most people would call them, "just a book of old stories" and try to think of them as a very insightful guide to life. 

I wonder what the scriputres would say if they were written about people in our time"

"And behold, it had been two-thousand years since the birth of their Lord, and the people did cast him out of their hearts.  They became a pridesome people, for they worshipped the makings of their own hands more than they did their Lord.  And behold, their lives became exceedingly sore and they did contend much one with another.  And behold, they did not prosper in the land for the space of many years."

I agree with some of his points. About him being a Jew and not minding Christmas trees. Being tolerant of other religions and not having to give up saying Merry Christmas id one is a Christian.

I don't agree that Godlessness in schools contributed to the Katrina disaster. I don't think God spends much time managing the weather because of something we did or did not do. He didn't have much lasting success with that way back. Earthquakes, floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, lightning strikes that cause fires are all natural events. Crap happens.

At the same time I believe there is a God. I just don't think he micromanages things like weather related events. I believe that if one believes in their God, he will assist in ways, but we have to make good choices in order to receive the blessings. All the while, keep an eye cocked to the weather and don't build in low lying coastal areas, or on fault lines, or in river flood plains. Give your kids a spanking when they're small and deserve it; don't beat them though. Teach your kids the 10 commandments. Believe and live the 10 commandments.

This is simply my view; and sometimes confusing to me.

I hope that makes sense.

The bible gives a great guide on how to live a good happy life. Things go wrong when people start to ignore it or they warp it for personal gain.

Examples:

-Don't kill
-Don't steal
-Don't cheat

Its not asking alot, but it seems so hard for some people.

Seems to me, most of the God believing folks I know are tolerant and not too pushy with their faith. All of the atheists I know are determined to convince everyone there is no God.

What MountainDon said!!!

Quote from: MountainDon on December 22, 2008, 09:19:36 PM

I don't agree that Godlessness in schools contributed to the Katrina disaster. I don't think God spends much time managing the weather because of something we did or did not do. He didn't have much lasting success with that way back. Earthquakes, floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, lightning strikes that cause fires are all natural events. Crap happens.

I agree with you. I think sometimes people only feel like God is on their side if nothing bad happens to them and they get everything they want.

I try to remember that a heaven wouldn't have any significance without a life on earth.  Can't know what hot is unless you have felt the cold.

Well said.  :D :D

Boy John.....Couldn't you have picked a deeper subject? ???

I agree with most of what he said, don't know about other things, and might agree with Don except I'm not smart enough to be sure.

I was raised as a Christian in very rural areas. First a Lutheran, then a Methodist then Episcopalian...which I still am. In the hills as you well know, people are a lot more tolerant than elsewhere. I had a Jewish family live near me and I didn't understand there was supposed to be a difference until I was in my mid teens. To this day, we are still good friends.

There is so much about the bible that has been selected, misinterpreted and just ignored. I supposedly should hate Muslims because they are heathens. I missed that somehow because in the Koran, there is God....our God, just as the Jews worship the same God. Even among Christians, we can't decide if Jesus was a man or God himself.

There are a lot of Jews I dislike...gee....there are a lot of Christians I dislike too. I like to look at the person, not the religion.

I agree with  Wildbil...If we all lived by TEN simple rules as they were intended, we could toss the rest of the Civil and Criminal code in the trash.

Now Don said:
I don't agree that Godlessness in schools contributed to the Katrina disaster. I don't think God spends much time managing the weather because of something we did or did not do. He didn't have much lasting success with that way back. Earthquakes, floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, lightning strikes that cause fires are all natural events. Crap happens.


I just don't know. I expect he is right but I wouldn't discredit some Divine slight of hand either.

What I can tell you is that I have always known I was being cared for in some way. No matter how bad things got or how dismal my prospects were, I knew I would be OK and before the roof fell, something would always happen, sometimes a series of things that were so unlikely to occur, it was nearly impossible....and I would be OK. That's financial, emotional, physical...every part of my life has been guided in one way or another.

It would take a full page to list the times I should have been dead or close to it, but was pulled out by some fluke. It would take a lot more pages to list the times I should have gone broke or didn't know where the family's next meal would come from......

So who knows? Katrina, etc could be by design.

I'll let greater minds work on that. Simple faith, a sharp knife and  common sense, has always worked for me.

Quote from: MountainDon on December 22, 2008, 09:19:36 PM


I don't agree that Godlessness in schools contributed to the Katrina disaster. I don't think God spends much time managing the weather because of something we did or did not do. He didn't have much lasting success with that way back. Earthquakes, floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, lightning strikes that cause fires are all natural events. Crap happens.

I think that maybe you misunderstand or maybe I did. The Godlessness in school is two fold in his meaning. One is that We have indeed asked or have told God he can not be in School, and maybe that is why we have things like Columbine and other school shootings  and why it is easy for kids to kill each other without it bothering their conscience. We have taken God out and with Him some  key commandments, and what is the core to what a decent society is. If you take out Thou shall not Murder, Thou shall not steal, what is really left morally speaking to teach in school? Schools go on how they need to teach morals, so where do they come up with what morals are? The point is when you ask God to go away and he does why are you surprised? So I do not think He was saying that because we Kicked God out of schools He sent Katrina. However what exactly is HELL? It is place without God. Something to ponder.

Now with that said, was Katrina a punishment from God? I do not think it was. Why do we continue to build in areas that we know nature makes strikes at? You have those who will continue to rebuild on a hillside in California that ever few years slides. We can not even somehow collect the power of a lightening strike, yet we build below sea level at the sea coast where we know Hurricanes have hit and will continue to hit in the future.


Hey, what do I know? I could be all wrong, some what correct, mostly correct but rarely 100% correct. heh

But if you read the bible and take it to heart there are many incidents where the wrath of God included disasters.  But then again you have to believe the bible was the written record.  If not then I guess you can draw your own conclusions. 

Our founding fathers had alot more spititual belief than the present.  Thus so that they seen fit to include "In God we Trust".

Quote from: Redoverfarm on December 22, 2008, 10:31:35 PM
But if you read the bible and take it to heart there are many incidents where the wrath of God included disasters. 

There is always a fore warning to allow for repentance.

Where's my popcorn?

I don't think the above quote implied that God managed the weather to smite New Orleans, although from what I remember of Bourbon St, he would be more than justified  ;D.  Bad things happen all the time to good people, and yet God does not intervene.  I think that the above quote was pointing out...."why would God intervene to stop this from happening?"  (You know, sort of a situation of omission)

My personal belief is that God does not take requests, except in very, very rare cases.  I try not to pray and ask for things.  I try and just be thankful when I pray.  I'm not always strong in that practice though.

I think that there are a whole lot of Christians in the world who are in much, much worse lives than I am.  I bet that many of them are praying  and living very Christian lives, and yet their conditions of existence are miserable.  Why would God allow such a thing to happen? 

I suspect that those in need are placed as a challenge to those of us who have some surplus.  I think that our reward will be based on how we respond.  With regards to the "widow's mites" I could be doing better in that aspect. 

Scripture continually points out how those who are miserable / poor / downtrodden / etc. will be given a more prominent position in heaven... "last will be first".  It's easy to be happy and holy when you have a comfortable income.  Maybe God prepares additional blessings for those who are challenged now and still live their faith.  Maybe we'll know sometime.  Part of me wants to know, part of me is worried I won't make the cut. 

I do agree with the above quote implying that we are hypocrites.   We live hedonistic lives, and then wonder why God does not bail us out.  It shows in the way that we raise our kids too. 

-f-

Quote from: NM_Shooter on December 22, 2008, 10:43:23 PM

Scripture continually points out how those who are miserable / poor / downtrodden / etc. will be given a more prominent position in heaven... "last will be first".  It's easy to be happy and holy when you have a comfortable income.  Maybe God prepares additional blessings for those who are challenged now and still live their faith.  Maybe we'll know sometime.  Part of me wants to know, part of me is worried I won't make the cut. 
-f-

Interesting, I have always understood that scripture to be about those who have received Him or the gift of salvation last will be first. Not about what Christian is given more comfort and or blessings here on earth versus their counterpart. Thats if that is what you meant.

Quote from: Sonoran on December 22, 2008, 09:52:46 PM

Quote from: MountainDon on December 22, 2008, 09:19:36 PM

I don't agree that Godlessness in schools contributed to the Katrina disaster. I don't think God spends much time managing the weather because of something we did or did not do. He didn't have much lasting success with that way back. Earthquakes, floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, lightning strikes that cause fires are all natural events. Crap happens.

I agree with you. I think sometimes people only feel like God is on their side if nothing bad happens to them and they get everything they want.

I try to remember that a heaven wouldn't have any significance without a life on earth.  Can't know what hot is unless you have felt the cold.

Conversely, I believe life on earth is just a big test to show how much you love God and want heaven. Biggest difference between here and paradise is pain and suffering. When something "bad" happens to us, (since everything that God wills is good, even if we don't perceive it), how are we going to react? Are we going to curse God for "hurting" us, or are we going to love Him all the same and accept whatever comes from His loving hand? I believe God has complete control over every physical occurrence, and that everything works together for His plan of salvation. The only thing He does not control is the intention with which we carry out our physical actions. Our "free will" is ours. If a guy punches you on the street, as far as we are concerned the punch came from God's hand and was meant to hit you right where it did. On judgment day, you will be accountable for how you reacted to the punch, and the attacker will be judged by the motive with which he punched you. Of course, there are a million variables as to why one person might be more accountable for sinful actions than the next, but that's not for us to judge.

So basically, holy people are just as susceptible to natural disasters as unholy, maybe even more so. :) More good comes from sending "evil" to an upright person who will respond with acceptance and offer it back to God for his salvation, than from having an evil person just perpetuate a sin that was committed against them and seek revenge. They would keep passing sin around, while we could be a "ground rod" for God, so to speak. :)

Anyway, that's the way I've been taught to see it... take it for what it is. ;)

I believe God created us to have fellowship with him...  but free will is necessary or we are just robots...  if you believe what the Bible says - Adam & Eve thought maybe God was holding out on them when He told them they couldn't eat from the tree of good & evil & went ahead & ate of the fruit & thus knew both good & evil...  their relationship was broken with God, who is perfect & just.   But even in the beginning, God planned a way for that relationship to be restored - since we, as human beings, can't seem to live perfect lives, He gave his Son to take the penalty for our own rebelliousness - but we have the free will to accept that also.

We live in a world that has evil in it so therefore we will all be affected by evil in some way, even when it isn't our fault.  Someone is killed by a drunk driver, homes are destroyed by floods, a loved one suffers from a horrible disease, leaders bankrupt our country & instigate unending wars - I think God allows certain things to happen at times to help us learn lessons in life - the Bible says that "we will have troubles in this world" & "the testing of our faith makes us perfect" .

There are natural laws that God has put into place - the "reap what you sow" someone mentioned earlier.  And as others stated - if we build in a flood plane or on a cliff or use improper building techniques, hey, is that God's fault?  I also think that He reaches into time & space in miraculous ways sometimes to touch us in special ways but that isn't the norm... 

When everything is based on "situational ethics" which are taught in school - what's the bottom line?  What is TRUTH?  Pontious Pilate asked that of Jesus Christ.  That's what each person has to find for themselves.  I DO believe there is TRUTH.  The Bible even says that "the TRUTH will set you free."  So just like the song Bob Dylan wrote several years ago  "You've got to serve somebody - it may be the devil or it may be the Lord but you've gotta serve somebody"

BTW, I like Ben Stein - did anyone see the movie "No intelligence allowed"?  About intelligent design vs evolution?  He brought up a lot of very good questions...

I generally try to stay out of conversations like this. d* d* It is soo... easy to take religious thought and beliefs too seriously. Then, pretty soon, heads are flying off and wars are raging over one or another faction of a long dead feud. If there is a God worthy of the name, this is not what He wants done in His name, I'm pretty sure of that.

Here is an interesting blog that has an actionable idea or two that might shed some light here:

http://www.cabinetforum.org/index.php/blog/41/

"I have this crazy theory that when we die, heaven looks like YouTube."

We have a lot of level headed people here and hopefully they are able to converse about this in a calm and peaceful way, wishing the best for all good people around the world, Insha'Allah.

Allahu Akbar.  :)  Peace and respect for life of others to all....

 I

Quotealso think that He reaches into time & space in miraculous ways sometimes to touch us in special ways but that isn't the norm... 

Interesting, Sassy. I have always consider God outside of Time itself.

Well, I guess the most significant event that broke through time & space would be the coming of the Messiah!   :)

I don't think this conversation is getting out of hand.  And I think that it is good if people take their religion seriously...but being serious does not have to include going to war with someone because they do not agree with you.

I do not think God would want that either.  But I do think that he would want people to keep him in their minds, think about him, discuss his teachings, and his existence in their lives.

You guys are all so rad!  Although my house is cold, my heart is warm after reading all of this.  Don't take what I say here as pushy, I just don't know any better way to say the facts as I see them, than the same way I would that 10x10=100.

      Of course God isn't within time, he is time.  He is all things, and none at the same time.  He shepherds us as any caring father would, and in so doing allows us to turn from him without ever losing his love.  The strongest of foundations, are those that have fallen, and been rebuilt, because we are afraid that they will fall again, so we put extra rebar in.  We are meant to question, and to ponder, for it is written, "seek, and you shall find".  There are only two commands given, which must be followed, because all others are dependent upon them, "love the Lord your God with all your heart, and all your soul, and all your strength", and the other, "love your brother as yourself". 
      My biggest challenge in raising my children, is teaching them the value of mercy, and compassion.  That those are the real riches of life, are things that many forget.  Of course it pains God when we suffer, but I do believe that society pushes him away too much.  With that said, we can never get him further than arms reach away.  Take Jonah, who tried to run from the Lord, or Jacob, who wrestled on the shores of the river Jabbok.  Or Peter, who denied Jesus three times, and became the rock upon which the church was built.  God never leaves us, but we blind ourselves to his face.  We harden ourselves to his touch, until doubt becomes the seed of suffering, oppression, greed, and ultimately doom. 
    To live in the Kingdom here, that is the gift and freedom Jesus spoke of.  The point at which heaven and Earth collide, that is the goal in this life, and it happens all the time.  Whenever your smile transforms the frown of a stranger, miracle; a soft touch, word, or prayer, that restores hope to the heart of the hopeless, miracle; a baby's first cry, and breath, miracle; a person who's heart is torn, restored by love, miracle; talking about God on a building forum, around the water cooler, to a complete stranger, or someone who struggles from great loss, miracle; he is with us always, and we with him, even if we don't acknowledge it.  We are granted everything we ask for, that is good, and necessary.  Many times, we think that because we aren't given that present we really wanted, or we don't win the lottery, or our child's cut isn't healed with a kiss and a prayer, that our prayers aren't heard or answered.  But just as we laugh when our children ask us if they can just have marshmallows for every meal, so does our Father laugh when we expect only yummy things from life.  Even death, though sad for those who remain, is not a bad thing.  "blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted". 
     "blessed are the poor, for theirs is the Kingdom of God," and "it is easier to pass a camel through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of heaven," are not warnings against money, or praise to those who don't have it (or a knock to those who do), but instead drive at the core of the Kingdom, that interdependence of people, and love of God, are crucial to the very fiber of existence.  With enough money, you don't need help, without help from other people, you lose sight of the one in whose image we are made.  The reward of living life the way God intended, is the very thing that was taken from Adam and Eve, the tree of life.  If we give up the knowledge of good and evil, and simply do as God suggests (not our free will, we always have that), we enter the Kingdom, here.  We find heaven, here.  We are returned to the garden, here.  And we find peace and harmony, here.  Then, when our bodies return to dust, our spirit passes not to another place, but remains within the Kingdom.  Live every day like Sunday. 
      Rejoice and give thanks for every day, as if it is Thanksgiving, Christmas, or Easter.  You are all so precious, to God, and to me.  No words can truly describe the glow I get when reading discussions like this.  I am a great big windbag, who types fairly well.  Thank you for putting up with me all these years.

As with the rest of our members on this forum - as mentioned in the article John posted, Jens, it is good when we get together and share, give and help one another without expectation of repayment.  It all comes back if you do good.... or bad....

I'm sure God smiles with the good and frowns on the bad...

Love your enemies-one of the most powerful tools that any man can possess. You can stop wars, change the direction of anothers life, change the culture of a nation. Its a hard concept for humans who have been told that their race needs to compete for resources their entire life. We need to debug our minds and realize our lives would be better with less things, more respect, forgiveness, understanding, and friends. Notice I left out knowledge. A good education can provide lessons on good and healthy living, and sometimes better and safer ways of doing things. Too much knowledge can create doubt, fear, and the eventual thought that man is more advance than to believe in God.

Knowledge and spirituality are linked, that as one increases, the other decreases, to where we become, "like one of these little children".

Quote from: Ernest T. Bass on December 22, 2008, 11:04:16 PM


Anyway, that's the way I've been taught to see it... take it for what it is. ;)

I think you've been taught very well.  Kudos to your teachers.

-f-

What a great community we have!   :) 

As for knowledge - the Bible does state that the people will always be following after knowledge but never finding the truth... 

For me, once I became a believer in Christ, so much more understanding opened up to me - coming in faith in the simplicity of a child, but becoming "wise as a serpent, gentle as a dove."  I find that I'm not afraid to examine what is going on in the world or look at myself & all my weaknesses & fallibilities...  it's also given me the desire to study other religions & beliefs so that I might better understand where other people are coming from - then I can hopefully intelligently communicate with them.  That's what Jesus did... he met the people where they were.  Also, the Apostle Paul - when he went to Athens, he discussed philosophy & spoke about the people's "unknown god" ...

At my work, I am with people from all over the world - doctors & nurses who are from Russia, Ukraine, India, China, Philippines, Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, Canada, Australia & yes, a few from the USA  :D - they are Muslims, Hindu, Seiks (sp), Catholics, atheists, agnostics, humanists, Buddhists, homosexuals, protestants, holy rollers, you name it. It is important to be able to communicate with everyone - not to lose my own beliefs, but to be able to share them as they share their own.   When TRUTH is spoken, it will go to the heart & speak to anyone who is truly looking for it. 

Amen Sassy.  The heart of all religions is love and tolerance.  My how so many around the world have strayed.  I sure do wish we had gotten out there to visit you guys when we were living in Santa Cruz.  Maybe one of these days we will make a trip out there, and stop on our way through.

That would be wonderful, Jens!  We'd love to have you & your family visit.  I have 2 sons - one almost 30 & the other 26 y/o;  Glenn has 2 sons 36 & 32 I think (he doesn't even remember how old they are) & a daughter 26.  We'd have to get everyone together, I think you'd like them. 

My feeling is that I do not argue (I will joyfully discuss and if I know the person well enough debate) Biblical teachings. For me it is not worth arguing over non salvation issues. I may not agree with another persons insight on a passage, but I always take it to heart, cause ya never know! I believe in God and that the Bible is the inerrant word of God. As for religion itself, I am not religious in the traditional understood sense. I have a respect for the RCC as I do the Methodist. I may not agree with them but I do see how some of their conclusions came about,  even if I do not agree I ask myself, is this a salvation issue? If it isn't then grace comes into play for both sides of a disagreement. I do not agree 100% with my Pastor or my Husband. But I do love pointing out to the Hubby he HAS to LOVE ME, when I do not have that same requirement.... heh

Here folks, I see courage.  Thank you for speaking your mind.  Hardly anyone does any more.  Some social things are indicators that we have too much time on our hands.  If we all toiled from morning till evening tending our gardens and animals to keep food on the table, we'd have precious little time to care what the next guy believes.  Hold your beliefs, let them guide your lives, live, work and be happy.

Merry Christmas.

Bill Houghton

I have a friend who says that while most people refuse to discuss politics or religion, he believes that those are just about the only important things to talk about.  I like to argue politics, but I don't argue religion.  I can't decide if I am respectfully tolerant of other's religious beliefs, or if I am just a wimp  :D  Maybe a little of both.  I like hearing what other folks believe.  It helps me get an angle on my own religion. 

-f-

Well I didn't want to insight a riot but thought this was important enough to capture God in the holiday and apparently it has attained that goal.  It also sort of tells me the kind of people that visit this great site.  All good mind you.  They say that you never know a person until you learn what they stand for.  God Bless You and Merry Christmas.

Thanks Red, God bless you too.  Religion and politics are my two favorite topics, because they are generally the things that most people are most passionate about.  When two or more can have discussion, or even debate, yet not argue (in the sense that one has to be right) about the issues and their beliefs, that is when the true magic of this human experiment happens I think.  BTW Stinker, I am not into religion in the least either, but love God, and our church...heck, anywhere that people truly rejoice within their hearts!

I think I have said it before already, but I will say again, you guys are all so awesome! 

Yep, there's a great bunch of folks here... A thread like this shows that everyone takes their faith seriously and really thinks about it; and that's all that matters. As long as you are always seeking the truth, you will find it. Like mother Theresa said, "If you are a Muslim, be a good Muslim. If you are Christian, be a good Christian."

Before we invaded Iraq, I had little understanding of or respect for the Muslims.  It was only after I came to see how we were treating them like dogs to be slaughtered that I began to study and understand them.  Of course they kill our soldiers.  They are fighting for what they see as an invasion of their homeland.  We want oil , power and Haliburton no bid contracts.  No need to try to justify it by hiding behind some later made up semi-just cause.  People and families are dying here.  To see how concerned we are about seriously helping them Google Abu Ghraib.

It was during the Rummy "Shock and Awe" -- or the "Aw Shucks" as some call it that I started reading Riverbend's Blog.  I received personal replies from her to my e-mails sometimes even as her home city of Baghdad was being pounded to rubble.  She has American friends....still.

She Finally had to leave and went to Syria and hasn't updated since last year.  She had lots of Christian friends before the invasion, and I read of her disguising one of her Christian girlfriends as a Muslim so she could get out of the country unharmed.  She said that car bombs were pretty well unknown there before the invasion.

I watched her go from imitating a western way of life, listening to western music, and loving it to losing so many of her relatives to the occupation that she did not like us so well at the end. 

She's not mad at you and I but at politics, greed  and leaders -even their own criminal puppets- and the situations that have caused the loss of her home and loved ones.

4-23-04 Her reply to me after I told her we had missed her ...  She hadn't updated for a long time.

QuoteDear Glenn,

Thanks so much for your words. It means a lot to have so many people concerned about my well-being. I can hardly believe it sometimes. I will try
to write more often but sometimes it can be so difficult doing something as
trivial as blogging when the world seems to be going crazy outside of my
window.

Thanks again Glenn... hope you and yours are safe and happy always.

Regards,
R.

Damn, She's a real person and a seemingly nice one at that.... World going crazy outside her window... yes , I guess constant bombings, shootings and home invasions could be a little distracting.  River was an IT Computer professional in Baghdad prior to the bombing and writes in great English.  I encourage you to check out some of the archives of her blog.  http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/

I do not agree with all of their beliefs except to be good and I do not expect them to agree with mine.

What I do see is where religion and politics have been used to help business, power and greed destroy the citizens of the world to the best of their ability, as long as there is power to be gained and money to be made or populations to be destroyed.

Many may pray for good things and their families at this time of year, but for me ... if I pray, it will be for Riverbend and her family, and the Iraqi's this unjust war has destroyed, killed  and displaced, along with my concerns for the rest of my friends and their families.  They are people too.

My point is that while most of us are safe and fine here, our families are all well.  We have plenty to eat.  We are grateful, happy, etc.,  that is all fine and dandy.  Seriously good. 

It's just that by way of association and our implied agreement with our governments wars for oil, greed and power, our standing by as they make their surgical strikes without our agreement.  Our CIA plots to overthrow governments - stir up the people and start wars for others to kill each other or their leaders.  Yeah, a nice clean surgical strike is the story they tell to we, the sheeple.  Surgical all right.  They just removed the body parts of a bunch of real people....implied to be with our approval and by association, with the approval of a Christian nation.

The short ending to my comments I guess, is, Would my God approve of what is being done in his name, and am I responsible for the actions my leaders carry out in my name, again by association? 

I hope not, if I don't agree with their policies. 

I want ALL citizens of the world to have a Happy New Year and peace with their families, together in one piece, no matter what nationality or religion, whether or not they are sitting above a large reservior of oil, whether or not a large American corporation profits from it's and their exploitation.

I know.  It's been this way since the beginning of time.

Just a good time of year to think of them too, eh? :)

It's a scary world. I for one feel lucky to have been born in the relative safety of the USA. That could all change at any time though. I'll take what I can get. I don't see us as having any real enemies, only those we create for ourselves.

That is the way I see it, or those who are created for us or created and blamed on someone else, as the case may be.

Here we were having a nice little discussion about our personal religious beliefs. We have had an assortment of beliefs stated with some divergence of opinion. We all agree there is room for differing views with a predominant theme of "Peace on Earth, Goodwill to Man" and "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". I really appreciated several of the views expressed; I liked them all, but thought a couple were outstanding.

Then along comes a post that drags the Iraq War into it; CIA plots, Haliburton, and so on. We were talking about personal religious beliefs, not about the ethics of war as waged by one country on another. Not even close to the same topic. This is one time I believe thread drift should be voluntarily restricted to be closer to the original thought, or at least to the thought line that has been developed by the previous topic contributors.

Maybe that's just me and my old fashioned, sometimes simplistic way of looking at things. Not everything the USA does is evil, corrupt or self serving.

Let's enjoy and celebrate Christmas and reflect on the true meaning and leave bashing to another topic.

Opinions may vary...

Merry Christmas!

Merry Christmas MountainDon! :D

Sorry, Don but the way I think, the main topic directly spawned my reply after a couple other replies kind of sent me in that direction. :)

I was probably a bit out of line as I thought it was open for replies from all beliefs.  We were earlier acknowledging Chanuka and Ben Stein stated he was a Jew, and of course I have Jewish ancestors, so along with other beliefs I though it only fair that we acknowledge the Muslims -- the good ones, just as I will leave the Crusades out of this and the radical Christians who we don't want to be associated with I assume.

The main heading -- Where Do You Stand? and after the quoted Ben Stein article ... You Stated,

QuoteI agree with some of his points. About him being a Jew and not minding Christmas trees. Being tolerant of other religions and not having to give up saying Merry Christmas if one is a Christian.

This made me think of what it was like to be Muslim -  (I am not-but I think of opposites many times when I think of things) and how we have been taught in the last few years that they are enemies of Christians.  Most of them do not feel that they are.   I don't even know a lot of their sayings except their greetings such as  Insh'alla.  Kind of like If God wills --

Seems you did not want to hear my opinion or take on it  n* 

You stated,

QuoteHere we were having a nice little discussion about our personal religious beliefs. We have had an assortment of beliefs stated with some divergence of opinion. We all agree there is room for differing views with a predominant theme of "Peace on Earth, Goodwill to Man" and "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". I really appreciated several of the views expressed; I liked them all, but thought a couple were outstanding.

Censorship - voluntarily? -- guaranteed - I censor myself more than anyone here,  but this seemed on topic and of value. 


Interesting that Muslims are reaching out to Christians and wanting to get along.  As  of last year, they sent a Christmas Greeting. 

QuoteLeading members of the group also plan to meet various Christian leaders at conferences planned over the coming year, so a network of Muslim-Christian discussions should develop. In his letter, of which I have obtained a copy, Prince Ghazi urges the Vatican not to want to make the best the enemy of the good. Dialogue is important, he argues,

    "even if it transpires that there are differences between us in the interpretation or comprehension of the text of this letter... These differences themselves are presumably also a matter for discussion between us, and should be an occasion for mutual respect and celebration, and not divisive disputation.

    "We, like you, also consider complete theological agreement between Christians and Muslims inherently not possible by definition, but still wish to seek and promote a common stance and cooperation based on what we do agree on."

Is this not also about religion and where we stand -- I feel all people of the world should get along and not be coerced into fighting and killing each other.  Is this not the spirit of the season?

Quoting the original Ben Stein article,

QuoteNow we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves.

The above what brought me to the CIA plots, Oil, Haliburton, Iraq and so on. 

Seems greed, profit and power is the cause of so much killing that that the loss of conscience and not knowing right from wrong is being ingrained in our children. 

Do we teach our children to lie -- do we teach them that it is OK?  Do we confuse their thinking so that they don't know right from wrong?  Do we teach them about Santa Claus?

That is also where my mention of the Surgical strike came from.  Loss of conscience.  A surgical strike.  Sounds clean.  Smart bombs.  Even better.  Collateral damage --translated (dead civilains) Does this explain anything about where their conscience has gone? (getting to the original topic, which I quoted above).

Quoting again from the original Ben Stein article,

QuoteProbably, if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it out.  I think it has a great deal to do with 'WE REAP WHAT WE SOW.'

and then your statement, Don,

QuoteLet's enjoy and celebrate Christmas and reflect on the true meaning and leave bashing to another topic.

It seems the original topic was actually more about being nice to everyone to improve our world and see why it is the way it is... not just the Christian world , but the whole world.  The main topic heading about where do You stand seemed to apply directly to the poster of a reply.

It seems that limiting it to only the feel good fantasy and Santa Claus white lie, would be limiting it to less that the original intent of the topic and posted Ben Stein article.  True we may not want to hear my reply as it is not an ear tickler, but I do like to face reality rather than deceive myself. 

No hard feelings... just my honest response, and Happy Holidays to all of my friends here on the forum... seriously. :)

I agree with you Glen, that it was not entirely out of bounds to bring up the things you brought up.  Yes, nobody likes to hear that kind of talk in the middle of all the warm and fuzzies, and I don't think it was quite as on topic as the thread has been.  I wouldn't call it off-topic though.  This is not a guarded, personal thread IMO, but a discussion, and as discussions do, it has moved to another point worthy of discussion. 

I think that war is abhorrent, period!  I think that violence is detestable, period!  With that said, I have felt extreme anger toward someone else, to the point that the only two ways to deal with it were to let it go completely, or to end up in jail for the rest of my life.  I chose the former.  While I don't agree with war, or the reason that we are over there, I have had too many friends involved in it to not have the utmost respect for their professionalism, courage, and patriotism.  Yes, I said patriotism!  To fight for our country, and to take orders from our leaders, I regard as patriotism, regardless of agreeing with the reason (most of which the public will never know). 

A teenage boy was met at his house by a friend of his before school.  Before he walked out of the house, he walked up to his mother, who was passed out on the couch.  He took her shoes off, lifted her feet up onto the couch, put a blanket on her, kissed her forehead, and told her he loved her.  On their way to school, his friend asked him why he not only loved her, but tolerated her, "ever since your dad left, she's been out every night!  Everybody in town talks about her, and the things she does.  She is always drunk, she barely takes care of you, and everybody knows shes been with more men than I could even count."  The boy stopped walking, and with a straight face that showed neither anger, or offense, but frustration, he answered his friend.
      "She goes to work all day.  When she gets home, she pays the bills, and then she goes out and does what she does.  I am in no way proud of the things that she does, and I know that she gives me a bad name by her actions.  But at the end of the day, I know that she needs me just as much as I need her.  I know that she has kept me safe all of these years, and that if I were threatened in any way she would be there for me.  And if that is not enough, I love her."

      maybe that story doesn't make much sense to you, but that is how I feel about our country.  I don't agree, but I still love what we stand for.  Freedom, (although that gets very muddled at times), not just for us, but for anyone bullied who can't defend themselves.  I too know personally people from Iraq, as well as other war zones from the last 40 years.  They have all told me horror stories.  No matter the motives, whether I agree with war or not, we do stand as a voice for the voiceless, and pacifist or not, whether truth or lies, if we are helping people I will do my best to be positive. 

       But who is to decide whether or not we are helping people?  Most people probably think that it would be a big help to our kids, if we were forced to get cable TV, and video game machines!

Merry Christmas, happy chanukah, and God bless all of you.

Glen, if that was thread drift, thank you.  Does it still count as thread drift though, if people respond?

Sorry Don, and others, had to back up my boyyy!  Because, "he's a rebel and he'll never ever be, any good.  He's a rebel cause he never ever does, what he should...."

I thought the original topic was about God and about how we in the USA had removed his presence from our schools, our government and our lives. Second to that was the thought about how parents don't discipline their children and teach them values in order to have them "grow" a conscience.

I'll admit after reading Ben Stein's article my mind snapped to two religions, Judaism and Christianity, because those were the two Stein mentioned. I left Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Confucianism, Druidism, Native American Spirituality and dozens of other religions out in the cold. Sorry. However, any of those believers are welcome to jump in.

Anyhow Stein was talking about Jews and Christians. Those are specifically mentioned by Stein. And he was talking about America and why, as stated above, we in the USA had removed his presence from our schools, government and lives, and then wondered why things had gone to hell.

You ask if we teach our children to lie and confuse their ability to know right from wrong, by including Santa Claus in our celebration of Christmas? Sure Santa has no religious significance, but he's been a part of the western world's culture for centuries. I'll bet that virtually everyone with a Jewish or Christian background believed in Saint Nick for at least a few of their young years. Some of us figured out the Santa myth on own own, some had siblings break the news, some parents had to be the bearer of the "bad news". Some of us probably cried at the revelation. I seriously doubt that this belief in Santa has caused anyone to lose or not properly their conscience. Not believing in your God has a lot more to do with conscience.

The topic "Where Do You Stand" invites anyone to come forward and state their religious beliefs, add their thoughts to why has religion left the fabric of everyday American society. That's what folks were doing. It would be interesting to have a follower of Islam contribute, but there so far haven't been any.

In his last paragraph Stein begins, "Funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the world's going to hell..."

I believe we can discuss that thought, and include the beliefs of Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, etc. in the discussion without getting into historical events like the Holocaust, the Inquisition, the Crusades, Mayan and Aztec human sacrifice, the Roman persecution of Christians, the Massachusetts Witch Hunts, the Mountain Meadows Massacre, Islamic jihads, of the current the Iraq War. Adding those to the discussion does nothing but inflame feelings and adds nothing constructive.

Of course, as always, opinions may vary. That's fine. That's America. At least we are still free to express opinion. Sometimes I'd simply like to not stray so far from the topic as introduced.

That's all I'm going to say on this. I have no desire to engage in a Flame War.

Actually, I find it kind of amusing that we are arguing over a thread drift in a religious beliefs-orientated discussion. ;D I would have expected more conflict over scripture interpretation or something... :)   

It's all good, people... thanks for all of the replies.  Sorry I have to bow out for a bit but broke my computer power cord and hope to fix it.

I'll see if I can find a Muslim, and not just me who has observed them a bit-- may take a bit.  Best to all.

Here I go with my unpopular stance.

My hubby and I have had made the choice not lie to our child about Santa. I could never understand as a child myself and find it even more confusing that a society participates in a lie. How can I tell lie to my child  that their is a santa, not only lie to him but it seems the western world will help me lie to him. To have him discover that santa is lie. How do I then tell him that you are right there is no santa son, but God exist. How would/could he believe me when I tell him about God? Especially when western society has already decided that God is not even welcomed in our schools.

I know this is a very unpopular view, I have even been told I am unamerican for this view and laughably been told I was unchristian.

I agree 100% Stink. Great analogy w/ God vs. santa. We have a zero tolerance policy in our family when it comes to lies, including the adults. :)

I guess two people can read the samething and derive two different meanings.  I for one only found one meaning in Bens article.  That being that we have removed God from everywhere except our hearts.  There is no mention of him in any public place in society except for church.  The children are not taught then 10 commandments because they do not appear anywhere except in the bible.  They are not learning it in schools.  I think when he(Ben) was stating that "We reap what we sow" was that by our actions to take god out of our schools and the public we are now paying the price for his absence.

I guess some see it differently than I but to me it is clear.

Thanks John, and very true.  I also always liked Ben Stein.  I always try to look at things differently and find that knowledge and understanding may come of it.  I try not to specialize but to get a better look at the whole subject.  Not saying any other way is wrong though.

If more people went by the ten commandments, there would be few problems.  I am not saying I am for or against church or religion.  I am saying I am against religion for profit or forwarding of a man's ministry over that of God's.  I feel we are all insignificant and no man is above others.

I have tried to contact some Muslim friends from the net for comment.  Can't promise anything.

I will take God at his word.  Of men I am not as trusting.

Stink, I agree with you 100% on your Santa policy. :)  ... however all may do as they wish and I will not think less of them... it is the way they have been raised.  Seems hard to break away from traditions and beliefs you grew up in, eh?

Andrew, My uncle and most relatives in Oregon were Catholic.  I did not agree with all of their beliefs but respected them for being good upstanding people. 

One uncle undertook to populate Oregon on his own- Uncle Gilbert had 9 kids I believe.  He was  one of my favorite uncles and his kids were some of the best.  They homesteaded similar to you.  I still remember the cream separator, banty chickens, Fourth of July, chores and the always worn to a frazzle tired look in his eyes, but he always had a kind word for us kids.

Jens, thank you  - you are right... always the rebel since I was born - always taking a diverging view and hoping to stimulate good discussion, networking and sharing of knowledge and even a bit of twisted humor.  My own grandfather (mom's dad) called me a spoiled brat.  My.... how things change... heh

For those of you who celebrate Festivus, I hope to stimulate airing of grievances.

Oh -- BTW, I got my cord repaired... [waiting]

All interesting post. I for one like when a topic runs a muck. How much can be posted on the same subject after it has been up for days anyway?I also like that the forum hardly has any censorship and the folks on here keep it clean.
Lets not forget this is a building forum.

Later,W

We have kept the Santa thing going with our kids.  I have struggled with the same difficulties, as far as the God/Santa thing, but then I look back at my childhood, and that of friends and family.  The Santa thing had nothing to do with my spiritual journey, that happened on its own and was inevitable IMO.  On a larger note, the Santa thing has more to do with hope and giving, I think.  It has been twisted by commercialism, but I think that deep down the reason that Santa is such an enduring figure, is that we are reminded of love, reward for good behavior (parents need to use that part more, us included), and the Christmas spirit of making people happy.  That last part, unfortunately, is the part I was reffering to as being twisted, to where it now means piles of gifts. 

We bought/made two things for each of our kids from us.  Santa gave them each two little things.  We are not big on big gifts, but try to keep it about the spirit of giving, which seems to show up in the fact that our children love to give things to people.  The two oldest, have decided to give their $5 they got from Great Grandma, to a fund our church is building to buy a cow for a village in Haiti.  We have been very blessed to have such selfless children, who truly understand the joy of giving.  I don't personally know of anyone who's ability or willingness to believe in God has been effected by believing in Santa.  It seems that kids genuinely accept the things their parents say as truth, so if we say there is a Santa Claus, and there is a God, they believe.  When they stop believing in Santa, that doesn't mean that they question everything you ever told them.  After all, they would end up thinking that they won't really get hurt if they fall out of that tree, or that car runs them over.

Plus, I am Danish, and Santa is a Scandinavian.  I haven't told them that Valhalla and Thor are real, but there is no counterpart for Santa...except maybe Hanuka Harry!

Merry, Christmas, officially!

"Life of Pi" just read it. If you want a great story with a great religious theme, please read. If you like tigers, please read. ;)

No offense at all Jens, but if Santa is presented as truth and the kids are taught that, then comes the time when they are older and they are finally allowed to know that Santa is a lie, he is not real -- he is a made up story from dubious sources of the past...

What about God.  We tell the kids the Bible is his word.  He is the Creator.  The kids come to believe all of the stories....they grow up and then Santa turns out to be a lie....

Are we not teaching them that black is white and white is black and causing some of the confusion with God?

Quote from: StinkerBell on December 24, 2008, 10:34:20 PM
My hubby and I have had made the choice not lie to our child about Santa. I could never understand as a child myself and find it even more confusing that a society participates in a lie. How can I tell lie to my child  that their is a santa, not only lie to him but it seems the western world will help me lie to him. To have him discover that santa is lie. How do I then tell him that you are right there is no santa son, but God exist. How would/could he believe me when I tell him about God? Especially when western society has already decided that God is not even welcomed in our schools.

I know this is a very unpopular view, I have even been told I am unamerican for this view and laughably been told I was unchristian.

Wow Stinkerbell, I really respect this decision you made. When my kids were little I didn't really see this as a lie; but now I do and if I could do it over I would do it a lot different. My kids turned out great nonetheless; even though I lied to them about Santa, the tooth fairy and the Easter bunny, etc.

Santa Claus. The Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy, Frosty the Snowman. I recall as a child lumping them all together with other mythical, magical creatures and stories as Peter and the Wolf, Hansel and Gretel, Peter Pan and so on.

Quote from: glenn kangiser on December 25, 2008, 11:58:42 AM
No offense at all Jens, but if Santa is presented as truth and the kids are taught that, then comes the time when they are older and they are finally allowed to know that Santa is a lie, he is not real -- he is a made up story from dubious sources of the past...

What about God.  We tell the kids the Bible is his word.  He is the Creator.  The kids come to believe all of the stories....they grow up and then Santa turns out to be a lie....

Are we not teaching them that black is white and white is black and causing some of the confusion with God?

As I said, I don't remember correlating the two, or feeling misguided or lied to in terms of Santa or any of the fairies.  The doubt that I had about God came much later in life than any of the other figures, and had nothing to do with my Mom.  I can only speak for myself with regard to this, but I don't recall hearing about anybodys faith in God coming into question because of Santa Claus.  There are a great many figures that our parents tell us about when we are children, and when we are children we believe, but as we stop believing because we see Mom put the stuff in our stocking, our money being exchanged for a tooth, etc, they do come clean and say that it is just a tale to make kids happy (or other reasons).  I have yet to hear from a single person in my life, that when they questioned the existence of God, their parents responded in the same way.

It is still lying, and tale telling, but my point is that I don't think it is damaging to a child.  I think the damaging part of childhood has more to do with impressing upon them the "necessity" of material possessions, not letting children suffer hardships, hiding natural parts of life (even as simple as birth, life, and death), and not stressing compassion and mercy.  That is the knife that cuts through the fabric of our society.  The fact that from a young age we are inundated with such an astonishing amount of media telling us what is needed in this life, and how to succeed.  How you need to keep up with the Joneses, and get more, more, more, and it doesn't matter who you screw over in the process as long as you succeed. 

As Jesus said to the Pharisees, you miss the larger picture.  I would much rather teach my kids about love, kindness, and giving, by telling them a tall tale about a fat man from up north, than release them into the world without a sense for those things.  That would be a greater disservice than lying to them by telling them Santa is real.

One thing I forgot above, God is the only one of the figures mentioned who has documented proof, in multiple religions, multiple regions, and throughout history.  God is not something you have faith in.  God is not something you believe in.  You have faith, and believe in things that you have no proof of.  You must KNOW God...IMO.   

Quote from: Jens on December 25, 2008, 09:00:19 PM
I would much rather teach my kids about love, kindness, and giving, by telling them a tall tale about a fat man from up north, than release them into the world without a sense for those things.  That would be a greater disservice than lying to them by telling them Santa is real.

Well, we have nothing against tall tales and fictional stories with good morals; they make great family time! But why the need to stress that Santa really exists? Why not let 'em know right off the bat that its just a story? I never felt like I missed out on anything... My parents were taught that Santa was real when they were young. My dad says that he felt cynical of everything that his parents told him when he found out otherwise... I guess it can vary from kid to kid.

Some Santa believers who later came to know God in their lives weren't necessarily brought up in a very Christian home, so faith in God has nothing to do with their parents teachings.. Don't know if that applies to anyone here, but I'm sure it is often the case. 

If seriously confronted, we would tell them the truth.  We would pull them aside, so as not to ruin the illusion for everyone else.  I think it is a fun, and healthy (or at least not unhealthy) thing for kids.  Most people I know are cynical anyway.  I think that has more to do with the person, and other outside influences in their life, personally.  Please keep in mind too, that I am not trying to argue a point for the sake of argument, or changing anyone elses point of view, just stating the opinion and thoughts of a simple man.  In modern society, I think that we focus too much on the periphery, instead of taking care of the center.  This includes some psychoanalysis.  I think that much of the time, people end up believing what a "professional" says they believe, and don't examine things enough for themselves.  I have seen it with many of my friends.  Their ideas about what is wrong with them change depending upon which "doctor" they are seeing, which drug they are taking, etc.  I wasn't around 100 years ago, but I don't think that we would be hearing discussion about the harmful nature of Santa.  The more important matter, is whatever we are doing to make our children think and feel what they do, or rather not think or feel, needs to change if we are to have hope of restoration as people of God. 

BTW, I'm pretty sure that at least our nine year old already knows, but is playing along with the ruse because it is FUN. ;D  I did the same thing, and have never lost enjoyment with the Santa thing.  Maybe I am just more simple minded, or liken unto a child than most, I don't know.  I think that it would be very interesting though to find out when commercialism first started to take Jesus' day away from him. 

I sat my older kids down many many moons ago and told them they came from a dysfunctional family. If the understand and accept it now they will be saving them self thousands of dollars in therapy bills when they get older.

We are all on a dysfunctional forum.There now we can all save money by not needing therapy[cool]

To tell you the truth I think the forum is therapeutic.

And moderators you have my permission to fix my spelling anytime,Whitlock



Done...  ;D

Everyone has dysfunctionality in some way, some hide it, some flaunt it.   ::)

Thanks Don!!! I guess some of my dysfunctionality is spelling d*
and hanging out with Glenn heh

[rofl2]  I'm the only thing keeping this world together-- I am the hub --- ask Sassy... [waiting]

... and Stinky loves me for it as I make her feel normal... ::)

" 'Life of Pi' just read it. If you want a great story with a great religious theme, please read. If you like tigers, please read. "

Seems everyone passed over this comment as not having anything to do with this conversation? This book basically teaches us that there is truth in every religion and that God can speak in different languages as to reach more people, languages to God being religions to us.

As for Santa, I have never once associated Santa with God. Truthfully, you can teach your kids whatever you want and try to have them follow you beliefs. My parents force-fed me the catholic faith my entire young life. I went through a period where I was annoyed to hear anything about religion, faith, God, Jesus and openly mocked people around me who believed in such things. Eventually I came back around and now regularly talk to God in prayers, although I still don't attend church. I feel a good parent will sit their child down when they are old enough and say:"look child, this is what I believe, this is how I interpret my faith, this is how others interpret their faith. You are free to explore and learn what you feel is right." Don't worry, once you tap their interest and provide a solid role model, God will take care of the rest.

Quote from: wildbil on December 26, 2008, 10:02:07 AM
My parents force-fed me the catholic faith my entire young life. I went through a period where I was annoyed to hear anything about religion, faith, God, Jesus and openly mocked people around me who believed in such things.

Unfortunately, this is how my Mom was raised as well. She hated the Catholic faith because of having it forced down her throat by her parents and crabby nuns at a Catholic grade school... Sadly, many Catholics are like this. They go through all the motions to satisfy their conscience and have absolutely no heart. Think, "lukewarm"... In many ways, they are also hypocrites in what they preach vs. how they live their lives. Many Protestant Christians have much more spirit and true charity.

When my parents married they decided to settle on a faith to raise up their children in. They had no idea what religion was "right for them", but they decided on anything BUT Catholicism. Their search is another story, but it was thorough and God-inspired. I don't want offend anyone by rambling on about why all the different Christian denominations got the thumbs-down, but they ended up Catholic. :)

I just wanted to point out that you're not alone when it comes to resentful cradle-Catholics, wildbil. Satan has certainly made it hard to find the truth under all the surface gunk.. We feel that the Church will be much smaller and much holier in the near future...

And, not to belabor the topic of Santa, but it seems to me that he is the driving force behind the commercialization secularization of Christmas. I don't know if kids were taught that Santa really existed 100 years ago, but even if they were it wasn't so grossly blown out of proportion like it is now. Even atheists can now celebrate X-mas, because Santa and stuff is all that the holiday revolves around.

I'm not pointing fingers at any of the good folks here. I know that it is all innocently done in fun and I'm sure that Santa isn't the primary focus of your Christmas. But, in the big picture, I feel that Satan, I mean Santa, is society's biggest tool for pushing Christ out of Christmas.

I'd better shut up now... I like you guys all too much to argue with you. ;)

You are a well spoken young man, Andrew.  I always value your thoughts. :) 

Still hate that stupid smiley? hmm  I forgot the word you used. Dorky? heh

Ahh.. He's not too bad. :) Keeps the mood light and helps prevent flame wars. ;)

Hmmm... I was born a Catholic, raised a Catholic, Confirmed a Catholic, married a Catholic and am repeating the cycle with my own kids.

I also believed in Santa, Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy.  Never once did I doubt my parent's teachings about God or my religion.  Maybe it was because about the time I was astute enough to figure things out, I was old enough to understand faith? 

BTW.... I still believe in Santa. 

Merry Christmas!

-f-

I missed out on a lot in this forum but I read something that I liked.  It was about Patriotism...serving your country whether or not you agree with what they are fighting for.

I started thinking about the whole idea of God being taken out of the schools and how people transfer this to the idea that our society is degernerating.  I just want to say that I think there is a difference between believing in God and teaching things that are moral in school.

Just because people take God out of school doesn't mean they are teaching the kids to "sin" or be immoral.  The whole idea becomes difficult because it is hard to know whose is what. Maybe I'm wrong, but the God that's being taken out of schools is generally considered a Christian God. But does that mean that if teachers are not allowed to allude to the idea of "God" they are not longer allowed to teach kids manners and moral living?

Quote from: Sonoran on December 26, 2008, 08:00:32 PM
I missed out on a lot in this forum but I read something that I liked.  It was about Patriotism...serving your country whether or not you agree with what they are fighting for.

I started thinking about the whole idea of God being taken out of the schools and how people transfer this to the idea that our society is degernerating.  I just want to say that I think there is a difference between believing in God and teaching things that are moral in school.

Just because people take God out of school doesn't mean they are teaching the kids to "sin" or be immoral.  The whole idea becomes difficult because it is hard to know whose is what. Maybe I'm wrong, but the God that's being taken out of schools is generally considered a Christian God. But does that mean that if teachers are not allowed to allude to the idea of "God" they are not longer allowed to teach kids manners and moral living?

The question then becomes, where do teachers get their information on what manners and moral living is?

And the thing that really gets tricky is...who is to say what is right and what's is wrong?   

It's all a matter of opinion and I don't think anyone will ever be satisfied with what is going on in school. 

Even setting all "moral" issues aside, let's say everything is worked out perfectly so everyone is happy with what their children are exposed to at school, which I feel is impossible.  Then I start thinking about the novel "Brave New World" by Aldous Huxley and can't help thinking that we are all just monkey's being taught how to push a button.  Is that really a good thing?

Tangent:

What is moral, what is right and wrong, what is "good living"?  It all really is opinion. I used to say that I would love to live back in the 1800's.  I liked the idea of being able to be with family.  But people say that it's "bad" because you do not have any "modern comforts".  Why would you want to do hard labor your whole life?  For me, I would do anything to be with the people I love.  I feel like the idea of "good living" has shifted from family affairs to money. 

So the whole idea of "where do you stand?". 
The whole idea of opinion of what is good and bad:  I think things get picked apart so much nowadays.  There is a lot of bickering and fighting over what we believe.  I believe in doing the best with what I am given and I will do my best to be happy even if schools are teaching that Saddam was an angel of God, stealing is good, beating people up with pillows is an acceptable behavior...I will still hold onto my relgion and practice it to the best of my ability.

Quote from: Sonoran on December 26, 2008, 08:53:51 PM
And the thing that really gets tricky is...who is to say what is right and what's is wrong?   

I believe in doing the best with what I am given and I will do my best to be happy even if schools are teaching that Saddam was an angel of God, stealing is good, beating people up with pillows is an acceptable behavior...I will still hold onto my relgion and practice it to the best of my ability.

Good for you now but what about the next generation and the next.  A constant down spiral will eventiually bring you to the bottom.  I often think what this world will be once I am gone.  What will my children have to face or their children if we last that long.  Personally IMO there has been that downward spiral since the courts have removed the only thing sacred.  Somebody to look up to , to give examples, a set of rules for humanity.  You can't say that we have that now.

I am probably far from perfect but I do guage my life and the manner that I represent myself based on the way I was tought which was formed early on by my religious up bringing. This was handed down from my parents who also inheirted it from theirs in which God, the Bible and the Ten Commandments place a crucial role. 

Another Tangent:

What would it be like if everyone lived up to the Ten Commandments.  I am sure that the Goverment would have to find other ways to aggrevate the public.  But then again if they were to adhere then their would be no need.   

One thing that is very admirable to me about Islam, and Judaism, is that their followers are identified by their faith.  It is who they are.  Maybe not all, but a great many.  When I say that it is who they are, I mean that everything they do has basis in their religion.  In their spirituality.  Things are thought of, not just in the context of national law, but spiritual as well.  That is powerful stuff.  There are still a great many atrocities, but if there is one thing history has told us it is that there are people who just plain don't care what the law is.

I think that children in school should be taught about religion.  Not one, but all of them.  I think that they should be taught the codes of ethics involved with each, the historical and sociological influence of each, and the basic tenets of each.  I think they should be allowed to learn about spirituality, and make up their own mind.  You can push people toward things all you want, but most of the time it works better to simply show them the paths, and let them make up their own mind as to which one they will take.  You can try to point them in the direction of the one you think is the right one, but in the end they are going to make up their own mind anyway.  With kids it is usually not what you try to get them to choose. 

BTW, my background...Catholic family, great aunt Marie is a nun, my mother was confirmed at the age of 8 (I think), because she learned to read by reading the gospels.  I was baptized Lutheran, because my parents were not married in the church, so they couldn't christen me Catholic.  Went to Baptist Sunday school for a while.  Catholic high school for 2.5 years.  Didn't really believe in God from probably 10 or so (when I started to think too much about it), until about 20.  Have always loved religious study, and discussion, and learning about why people think what they think.  My path eventually led me back not only to God, but to Jesus as well, through many signs, and a vision.  The weekend after my vision, I got baptized, and haven't been the same since.  I feel like I have returned to my childhood again, and it feels amazing (although my body still feels 70 some days!)!

Somebody said something about God talking to people through different religions, and in different languages, I agree.  I think that if you know God, you know God, period.  Doesn't matter if you are Christian, Muslim, Harri Krishna, or what.

And I have seen hypocrites in every denomination, and religion, it definitely isn't anything new, or going away any time soon.  Beware the yeast of the Pharisees. 


"And the thing that really gets tricky is...who is to say what is right and what's is wrong?"
Pretty sure that one goes to God.
Sonoran...I still believe in Santa too. 

I just can not subscribe to the many religions same God. A God of this religion is the same of the God of this opposing religion. That for me makes the Bible a history book and  not the inerrant word of God. I believe the Bible is the inerrant word of God.

No with that said, I am a very very strong believer in Free Will and that people have a choice to follow this, that, or nothing.

Well, the idea that I'm trying to present and to get people to consider is that what is happening is bad, from our point of view. And I know that sounds horrible.

We say that the world is getting worse because people are losing morals that we hold as precious.  Just like we say that it would suck to live in the 1800's.  Someone from the 1800's may disagree with you because he is perfectly happy. Or we say that we are better off than people from other countries...but typically the only way we are better off is because of money.  Imagine a man who is a sex addict, does drugs, has murdered a few people...he may say "man I live so much better than poor starving children in Africa"...but those kids may say, "I have a good life because I am with an honest family and I follow their teachings."

So, WE say that "a constant down spiral will eventually bring you to the bottom," speaking in terms of society, but it is only the bottom because in our minds, it has gone a direction that is not pleasant.

I was using this idea and also thinking about taking "God" out of school.  They are taking out the belief in a God but that does not necessarily have to mean that they are taking out his principles.  The ideas of not committing adultery, murdering, or lying is typically common practice, regardless of whether or not you believe in God.  

But the issue is Sonoran, that the 10 commandments have been removed from schools. Not allowed.

Quote from: StinkerBell on December 26, 2008, 10:12:17 PM
But the issue is Sonoran, that the 10 commandments have been removed from schools. Not allowed.

So does that mean that schools are teaching kids to do the opposite of the 10 commandments?  Or by not teaching them anything concerning the 10 commandments, allowing their parents to teach them what is good, and through default allowing the children to eventually learn for themselves what they feel is right and wrong?

Quote from: Jens on December 26, 2008, 10:04:26 PM

"And the thing that really gets tricky is...who is to say what is right and what's is wrong?"
Pretty sure that one goes to God.
Sonoran...I still believe in Santa too. 

Personally, I go to God, and I believe in Christ's teachings.  But I don't think that means that other people should have to also. Let them choose for themselves. And if society does things that our different than what I view as right or wrong, I will continue to go to God.

Quote from: Sonoran on December 26, 2008, 10:15:16 PM

Quote from: StinkerBell on December 26, 2008, 10:12:17 PM
But the issue is Sonoran, that the 10 commandments have been removed from schools. Not allowed.

So does that mean that schools are teaching kids to do the opposite of the 10 commandments?  Or by not teaching them anything concerning the 10 commandments, allowing their parents to teach them what is good, and through default allowing the children to eventually learn for themselves what they feel is right and wrong?

What I do know is schools are teaching our kids at age 12 they can get condoms at the school nursing office. That they have rights, including to fail if they so choose.  They are taught that people do not lie they just have a different reality.  I also know they are not being taught reading writing and math. If they did Microsoft would not have to look to India and other countries for educated staff. Bill Gates has donated millions upon millions of dollars in Seattle  schools over the last two decades and it still has not yielded him a person to hire.

I think we need to ask our selves who is teaching our children? Do the teachers care about our children or is it just a way to get a pay check?
Who pays the teachers?
IMHO I will answer this. The goverment is teaching our children,teachers are govermental employees that get payed from tax money.
In all my years of school I only had one teacher that I could say cared about me on a personal level.

Most of us as parents let the schools and TV rase our children. Nowdays both perants have to work to keep the house hold running.
As perants we have to go out of our way to make sure we give our children the values they need to become responsable adults.
This is not up to the teachers that could care less about our children.

Bye the way Sonoran is one of my sons and his mother and I are very proud of him!

As you should be, whitlock.  I have known about a half-dozen teachers personally, and they are all in it to try and help the kids, because they know public school is pretty much a joke.  In contrast to you Whitlock, Only a few of my teachers through school seemed to not be in it because of a genuine concern for children, and teaching.  Even the ones that seemed horrible, were actually incredibly intelligent, and loving, and were trying to help us realize our potential.  Of course that is something many kids don't want, so they get the label of a horrible teacher.  The funny thing is, most of them know the kids don't like them, and they don't care, because they are confident that what they are doing is right.  Talk about teaching how to stand up for your morals!

"I just can not subscribe to the many religions same God. A God of this religion is the same of the God of this opposing religion."

I don't think there are any opposing religions, I think that there are different ways in which God reaches out to different people.  IMO, all of the Christian denominations are different religions, because they teach people much different things.  All religions that teach people about one God, who not only created all of existence, but also care about it, are the same faith, different religion.  Same God, different way of thinking and interacting with him.  I think it quite logical to conclude that if God created all of existence, if he cares about it, if he can love each and every one of us regardless of our sin, that he would use the best method he could to get in touch with his people...all of them. 

The Jews are the chosen people, always have been.  They were chosen since Abraham, to show people how to live as God desires us to live.  Unfortunately, a great many of them refused, from the beginning, but God knew this would happen and had another plan which would bestow a great blessing upon the Jewish people.  To have the human embodiment of God's perfection born into their ranks, to come to them first, offer salvation to them first.  Jesus' message they saw as combative, however, and contrary to their teachings and beliefs.  They could no longer hear God the way he was talking to them.  Jesus and his apostles came as a way for God to get in touch with all of his children, who he has not reached yet.  The message continues to change some, to reach a different audience, just as Jesus' stories changed to apply to different people.  And in the same way that you must speak the language of whomever you are talking to in order for them to understand you, and you must change the story so that it makes sense to them, so must you sometimes change the circumstances of the religion, so that people may get to know you.  Not everyone learns the same way.  Somebody earlier said that religions are like languages to God.  I think that is the right track. 

Here is something that may freak some of you out, and get you spitting and yelling...you ready?  God does not care one bit about or for religion!  Religion is something invented by man to increase his power and wealth.  God cares about each one of you, individually, and collectively.  He cares about our relationships with him, and eachother, and about our salvation.  Salvation is quite a universal concept around the world.  It may not take on the same form for everyone, but Christians have fought over the nature of it since the beginning just within their own ranks. 

QuoteI don't think there are any opposing religions, I think that there are different ways in which God reaches out to different people.  IMO, all of the Christian denominations are different religions, because they teach people much different things.  All religions that teach people about one God, who not only created all of existence, but also care about it, are the same faith, different religion.  Same God, different way of thinking and interacting with him.  I think it quite logical to conclude that if God created all of existence, if he cares about it, if he can love each and every one of us regardless of our sin, that he would use the best method he could to get in touch with his people...all of them

.

The differing ways of worship in the Christian religion is not the same as different religions. For example, the difference between a Catholic and a Baptist is ways of worshiping a God who sent Jesus Christ as His Son and our Savior. On the other hand, a Christian understands Jesus to be the Son of God who died on a cross and was raised again, and salvation is through grace (this is the 'loves us regardless of our sin' you talk about); whereas a Muslim believes Jesus was a prophet, and the way to God is to make Him happy with our actions. Only one can be correct (but both can be wrong). To suggest both ways lead to God, suggests God is an inconsistent liar who toys with us. If God does exist (and it sounds like you believe He exists), it is important that we discover the truth about God - whatever and wherever that truth may lead to.

Before I bow out of this thread I want to thank everyone for the discussion, but I feel that it is time to leave because *I* feel this is bordering on blasphemy and *I* in my passion in this area may unintentional flame some one or any one. 

Love You All......xoxoxoxoxoxoxo






*I* = My sole feeling and not me speaking for anyone but me. Hope that makes sense....

QuoteHere is something that may freak some of you out, and get you spitting and yelling...you ready?  God does not care one bit about or for religion!  Religion is something invented by man to increase his power and wealth.  God cares about each one of you, individually, and collectively.  He cares about our relationships with him, and eachother, and about our salvation.  Salvation is quite a universal concept around the world.  It may not take on the same form for everyone, but Christians have fought over the nature of it since the beginning just within their own ranks.

Absolutely the same as my opinion, Jens.  Last night I posted a similar expanded statement of my own but removed it.  There is not a God endorsed religion mentioned in the Bible. 

Men only hang on Bible words and mascots to divide and get money for their own causes or splinter groups.  This actually takes people away from parts of the Word that they don't understand or agree with, but generally causes the leader or group to amass wealth.

The only requirement I have seen is "Where 2 or 3 are gathered in My name - I am there" - as a minimum I'm sure, but he did not have a large revenue generating entity in mind and in fact threw the money changers out...

You have conducted yourself quite well, Stink, (I am familiar with your passion for the subject) and we love you too... lots--- little computer generated entity that you are....  :-*      :)

But we know that you are real... We have seen the curlers.  [shocked]

Stinky, I know you are not blaspheming, and I do not see how educational discussion could cause you to commit it. 

You have to present your views so it cannot affect you.  You just need to keep a level head and try your best to influence others in a kind tactful way.

Neither you nor anyone else would flame here -- you know that. :)

We seem to be doing quite well on sharing views. 

I was born into the JW's  and don't highly recommend that although most of them are good people. 

Getting out is rather traumatizing but well worth the trouble. 

As with other religions -- they have their truly evil ones and hypocrites -- even in God's eyes. Child molesters and law breakers are generally handled only internally and are not turned into the government authorities so as not to shed a bad light on the religion.  True - they are only a very small part of the religion - I'd say under 2%, but they have their own internal judicial system and consequences.

I, being banished from the club, still have a few genuine friends and relatives there... many only care on the face and show their true colors when the chips are down.

I was taught there that all religions are bad except theirs,  but in the end had to include them into the bunch as it is true in Jens' statement above.  General concepts are mostly good with enough bad ones to pull you away from God's word itself - like any commercial religion. 

I'll plainly stick with God and his word with no twisted interpretations by any "Religion".  [shocked]

I'm with you Stink,Pass the popcorn please ;D

I am with you Stink.  "Time to &%$$ on the fire and call in the dogs."  Save our energy for a bigger fight. The nice thing about conviction.  It never leaves you.  God Bless All.     

Quote from: Jens on December 27, 2008, 09:29:02 AM

Here is something that may freak some of you out, and get you spitting and yelling...you ready?  God does not care one bit about or for religion!  Religion is something invented by man to increase his power and wealth. 

I thought Jesus organized a ministry throughout his whole life.

Do you think that God wouldn't care about a Church that did not operate to increase the power and wealth of the people in charge?  A Church that didn't have a paid clergy, I should say.

for me, I am much more interested in my relationship with god and jesus directly and not in any way particularly interested in the building many go to on Sundays.  Yes chuch is mostly a good thing, great for building communities, helping others, learning from others .. but as a conduit to god, well not so much for me and my family.   I'm sure others would disagree with that and thats probably a good thing as well. 

My wife and I will teach our children not just about god and morality, but how to think for themselves and not blindly follow anyone or anything.  I want the schools to teach my children science, math, english, basic right/wrong/social skills.  Aside from that, I trust their interpretations as much as anyone elses .. ie I dont.

heh

I don't think I am the one bordering on blasphemy....


People tend to say I flame them when I talk, bad habit being direct.

Glenn, I do understand your view about organized religion. I also see the other side of the Church. It cost money to operate, the lights, the building, and even toilet paper. I also understand when churches grow and then somehow become a mega church. I truly believe the bigger the church  the harder it is to maintain it's grass roots effort. Corinthian struggled with some of the same issues we have today. So it is not new stuff.

The one thing that I truly appreciate is "Free Will" my only job really is to make the introduction to God/Jesus not my job to convict a person to believe. So if someone declines my introduction that is fine. Live a Godly life (to the best of my ability) make an introduction, that is how it is suppose to work imo.

Look at what I did, I lied. I said I would not post anymore...

I am a bad bad person. I will surely burn!

heh





(of course it is all glenn's fault)

Stinker, I am not worried about blasphemy, or about any inflammatory responses.  I seek the truth in things, and trust God to put my heart at the top of the list of considerations, not my words.  People often take things that I say wrong, but I guarantee you that if we were face to face I would be as calm in this discussion as if we were talking about what the weather is like.  Other peoples thoughts, beliefs, and reactions to mine don't scare me, or worry me.  Many eyebrows raise from the things I say, but I feel some of it (maybe not all) is necessary to further thought of the subject and get us closer to our collective goal of being closer to God. 

Sonoran, Jesus sent his apostles to tell everybody his gospel about the Kingdom.  I don't think he ever wanted a religion founded on him.  Jesus was a proud Jew, but simply saw injustices everywhere and couldn't stand it.  In everything he preeched was the message of freedom, not restriction, which is what most religions would do to us.  That freedom must be exercised within the confines of God's law though. 

Islam is an Abrahamic religion, just as Judaism and Christianity.  To say that one knows God, or the true God more than another, is to discount the others as being false.  But how can they be with the same God as the root?  So why can't other religions have the same God as well, event though we may not be aware of it?  If they don't call him Yahweh, does that mean he is not the same God?  Even the word God, is just a name that humans in their weekness, have given to grant tangibility to the intangible.  Names correllate with physical things.    Grace is awesome, but grace without acts, is empty existence, ingrateful existence.  I Don't discount Islam, or any other religion, just know what I have found to work for me.

Shalom.

Glad you're back Stinkerbell.

Jens,

After placing my hand on my head and rereading your post (3 times and I think you made one of my hairs go gray! heh). I think, I understand what you are trying to say. It seems (I can be wrong) that you are trying to justify that all roads lead to God. I do not subscribe to this, nor does imo the Bible.

Jesus was more then a proud Jew (this I am still pondering, the proud part) he is the son of God, if you subscribe to that then he was sent as a sacrifice and not just a man who saw in justices. Jesus message was not about freedom, as a matter of fact he re enforced God's laws (see Mat 5:29-30 for example). Jesus reminds us of balance. Spirit of the law instead the legalism of the law, balance and grace. I am still pondering in my mind what you mean about "grace is awesome, but without acts, is empty existence" I think I need more information on what you are trying to convey.

Once again let me say this is all my opinion. I am not hear to tell others (except maybe glenn) they are wrong and gonna BURN. :heh
Only cause that final decision is not mine to make!

JN 14:6 [Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the father, but by me]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hello everyone, I've read only the last 2 pages  on this topic,and have gone against my better judgement and decided to post something.
I can see were its getting more heated up as you go. this is a great discussion, but i've found sometimes,its better to agree to disagree and remain friends.
I have been a christian fo going on 17 years, and currently attend a southern baptist church, of which ive been serving the lord as a deaconfor about 14. but still dont think I have enough knowledge/understaning/ memory to argue over issues. the best thing we can do is study gods word(the holy bible),pray for others to accept it as truth and attempt to plant a seed( and if possible, harvest for the glory of the lord), and leave the rest to his holy spirit.  God bless.
                                                                                                                                                   Darrell 

Stink, you always hurt the one you love.... [waiting]

I am currently searching in vain for asbestos Underoos... 

I wonder if they have them in Spandex.... hmm

Kids... don't try this at home...

I think everyone here is doing a great job of expressing their opinions and getting an understand of the issues out to where others can see them.. without killing each other.  If you don't chat as --here-- how can you communicate your feelings or concerns to others?

Except you, Stinky....... I can already feel my buns getting toasty... anybody else smell hair burning?  [scared] [bbq]

MY EYES! MY EYES!

I AM BLIND!






I will never ever forget the image of glenn in spandex underoos.....

Sorry, Stink... I had no pockets in which to carry my belongings... man these things are tight.... Where's a full length mirror when I need one.... oh --- there....

I see what they mean when they say that some people just should not be allowed to wear spandex....

Oh and a little hint guys... the potato goes in the front -- not in the back... d*

Quote from: glenn kangiser on December 27, 2008, 01:34:07 PM
I'll plainly stick with God and his word with no twisted interpretations by any "Religion".  [shocked]

Only problem with that is, after trying to interpret the Bible alone for awhile you basically end up with your very own "Religion". Hence the 30,000 different protestant denominations...

Quote from: Sonoran on December 27, 2008, 03:04:29 PM
Do you think that God wouldn't care about a Church that did not operate to increase the power and wealth of the people in charge?  A Church that didn't have a paid clergy, I should say.

"A prophet is worth his wage...." ;)

Quote from: Jens on December 27, 2008, 07:31:13 PM
Jesus sent his apostles to tell everybody his gospel about the Kingdom.  I don't think he ever wanted a religion founded on him. 

What about Matthew 16:18? "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church."

I think that anyone who is trying their hardest to be a good person, even if they don't even know about God, can be a saint. BUT, religion makes it a lot easier. We're all driving to the same place, but the Church is a map, so to speak. Lot's of churches have different pieces of the map, and they all claim to have the whole thing. :)

I simplify it to the two greatest commandments and let the secrets reveal themselves when the time is right --- no need to push it - I can't speed things up. :)

A church is not a building but simply a group of people - still no denomination as I see it. hmm

.. the bus could go off of the road but the guy in the VW might just manuever the turn..

Just different thoughts, Andrew and of course I value your insight.  You should feel sorry for Sassy... she has to deal with me nearly every day.. rofl

For a topic everyone is scared of this one sure is getting a lot of traffic... :)

What makes you think the guy is in a VW and not on foot? ;D And yes, a bus could certainly go right off the road if God isn't driving... :)

I will never eat a potato again.

[rofl2]

Sorry, Stink -- that was part of an old bad joke.

Quote from: glenn kangiser on December 27, 2008, 10:42:39 PM
 

I wonder if they have them in Spandex.... hmm

There you go talking about spandex again Glenn ???  Beginning to think there might be more to you than meets the eye.

Quote from: devildog on December 27, 2008, 10:02:12 PM
JN 14:6 [Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the father, but by me]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
I must apologize for the baiting on this.  I was actually kind of curious how long it would be until someone brought this up.  If these words of his are taken only at face value, then nobody who came before Jesus shall have reached heaven.  But scripture tells us otherwise.  The beginning of John says, " in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God, he was with God in the beginning.  Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."  And later, "The Word became flesh, and made his dwelling among us...only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."  (TNIV, John 1:1, 1:14).  Yet we are taught that there were some chosen to go with God.  But Jesus spoke in parables much of the time, or if not full parable, at least indirectly.

If Jesus is the Word, and was there from the beginning, and all things were made through him, then he is perfect peace, and love.  Not just the kind of peace you get when two armies stop fighting, and not the kind of love that humans share, but the same peace and love that we had when we were in the garden.  Wholeness, perfection, God among us, and with us...in short, I'll use the word shalom.  The law is also called the Word, and so we may make a correlation there as well (may, you don't have to).  Jesus in fact said himself, "I have not come to abolish the prophets and the law, but to fulfill the law."  Jesus is shalom, Emmanuel.  To have the harmony with God, not simply to believe in him, but to know him.  That is what Jesus offered, and continues to offer to this day.  Because in Jesus, we may be reborn of the spirit.  We can reach that place where God's plane of existence, and ours overlaps.  It is here always, but through the teachings of the Christ we are to more easily recognize it.

There are others who knew the Word, even before he became flesh.  Abraham was summoned by God, not the other way around.  But he believed in God, for it is written, "Abram believed in the Lord, and it was credited to him as righteousness."  Gen 15:6  Credited to him as righteousness.  Grace granted, given by God.  Not waiting generations for Jesus to grant it to him in the flesh.  Notice here too, that Abram didn't do anything to receive righteousness, but for to believe in the Lord.  Elsewhere in scripture, Jacob wrestles with the Lord.  Enoch and Elijah are taken to the Lord.  Neither of them had ever heard of Jesus.  

And the name Jesus, means God saves.  "Nobody comes to the Father except that the father saves?"  I wonder if that could be a different way to read that.  These are all things that I struggle with.  I don't let them worry me, or consume me, but I wonder.  I for one, do not think that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Elijah, etc, on up to Gandhi, are not with the Father in the happy hunting ground, simply because they never heard, or didn't ascribe to the gospel of Jesus as given in life.  And I don't think that one can simply say they accept Jesus and be saved, any more than you can say you are going to kill someone and it is done.  There is no ladder that leads to salvation, but there is a difference between truly accepting and making oneself a follower/deciphle, and just saying I do.  

"It seems (I can be wrong) that you are trying to justify that all roads lead to God. I do not subscribe to this, nor does imo the Bible"

Not really what I mean, but close.  We are all trying to find our way back to God, to shalom, but we all take different roads to get there.  He moves us toward his Kingdom in different ways.  And speaks to us in different languages.  I do not know enough about eastern religions to quantify this with any proof, but I do know that in some of them they search for enlightenment.  That enlightenment, I believe, is communion with God, transcending existences.  It is when the body and spirit become one, although they are still separate, (much like God walking the Earth, or at least the closest thing for us to that).  Not making oneself like a god, but coming into closer relationship with the Word, with all of creation.  I do not think that all religions lead to God, but I believe that one can get to God without religion at all.  Adam and Eve didn't need religion, neither did Noah or Abram, they needed God, and He them.  He still needs us, just as we need him, and that is one of the reasons to send Jesus.  To reconcile, to teach, to expand awareness beyond Judaism.  But yes, sometimes I think he speaks other "languages".  

"grace is awesome, but without acts, is empty existence"

It is not enough to believe, yet disobey, to be a planted seed, that does not grow, to receive grace, without extending it.  We must do these things to have communion.  We must love regardless of receiving it in return.  Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, but not with inactivity.  We must not be ungrateful.  

Jesus strove to proclaim our freedom from man, from physicality, from the pain that is sin, and the traps that lead us away from God.  You are correct though, that freedom exists within the Law, and within the Word.  Indeed that freedom is both those things.  The Pharisees were blind guides, who simply wanted more, more, more.  The more that they wanted however, is not the more that God cares about.  And that is the pedestal, I fear, that we see clergy (not all) climbing up on top of.  Even Peter struggled greatly with money and power when the church was in it's infancy.  Jesus washed the feet of his apostles to try to impress upon them to be humble, to be a servant, not a lord.  I could go on more about clergy, but I won't (lest ye be misled, I do care a great deal for the clergy, but have difficulty still).

That is all I will write for now.  I am sorry for the length, but trying to answer the questions well enough that you understand where I am coming from.  Probably didn't do it! d*  If you wish, I will bow out of the discussion.  I am enjoying it, but would like to hear more thoughts from others as well.  And I don't want to offend too much.

QuoteThere you go talking about spandex again Glenn

Sorry, Jens.... We have a lot of bikers here on Hwy 49  --- It is a constant reinforcement of a bad image...

QuoteBeginning to think there might be more to you than meets the eye.

You've never seen me in Spandex.... [scared]

Truth be known I don't have any ---

...couldn't find my size... d*

sorry, posts happened while I was typing, so I'll just say these two things,

1.Glenn, you are sick, very sick indeed.

2.I was taught, in Catholic school, by a nun, that the church is, "the family of God on Earth", but not religion.  The same nun also said that "there are Godless people who go to church twice a week, and people full of the spirit who never do."  We don't need the church to be with God, but I think sometimes we are a part of the church without even knowing it!

3.you are very sick glenn...

Sorry, that was 3.  

May God bless all of you, and I bid that you find shalom.

I'm afraid there is no cure, Jens.... :-[

....durn it.... got me again - both number 1 and 3....  Must get on CP forum for therapy...... :(


Seems that so many are headed to the wide path of religion as the way rather than the narrow gate of non-government registered non- commercial religion.

"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it."

I wonder about the above verse along with this...

22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'

23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

Seems we can't take  the leaders of a commercial religion at face value and follow unquestioningly in light of the above verses.

Just my thoughts ...

Seems the small path is the way to go... hmm

Quote from: muldoon on December 27, 2008, 03:25:24 PM
My wife and I will teach our children not just about god and morality, but how to think for themselves and not blindly follow anyone or anything. 

This is tricky because,  if they learn how to think for themselves because that is what you tell them to do...

Muldoon, I'm not saying this is bad, I agree with you.  It's just funny because if they think for themselves because you tell them to, then they are not thinking for themselves.  Just a funny...I don't know...paradox is the word maybe?  But a necessary one.

Not if you only instruct them in the art of thinking for themselves.  

Give a man a fish and he eats for a day.  Teach a man to fish and he eats for the rest of his life.

Question Authority.

Teach a man to fish, and he'll get drunk in the middle of a lake. 

It isn't enough to just teach him to fish, you have to teach him to bait the hook, cast the line, reel the fish, clean the fish, cook the fish, etc, etc.