How many are off grid, full time residences? Solar and or wind?

[Thoughts-from-Jules]

We are looking at 20 acres property on a ridge top and we learned that power will cost between $14,000 and $45,000 to get to the property!  While we might be prepared to pay that lower amount we wanted to check and see what our options were.  The ridge top is in a wind zone 4 on a wind map and there doesn't appear to be any trees that would interfere that are over 20-30 ft tall (they are very scattered on the property).  I have no idea what that means in terms of capacity for wind power.  Anyway we are wondering what it is really like with solar and or wind power, what to expect in both usability and costs associated.  We live in Oregon, is there any tax incentives to help offset the investment?

My Dad puts up met towers for the large commercial windmill projects so I imagine with his knowledge we could erect a small tower no problem, it is just the kit for a windturbine we'd need. 

I have tried to research some about solar but I get confused with the technical data.  How far would $14,000 (that we would have paid to get power there) go in a solar system?  What kind of room is required to house the equipment and can it be set up say in a nearby shop and run to the house etc?  The house is approx 1900 sq ft and we will have a shop (we can run a generator for those larger powertools if need be though).

What kind of costs down the road can we expect?  How often do we need to replace batteries and other upkeep?  Any help and patience with my lack of knowledge would be great.

[Freeholdfarm]

Julie, I'm not an expert but I've been doing some research on this.  The main thing is to FIRST cut your power usage as much as you possibly can.  Then you can figure out how much power you will need and start sizing your system.  If the property you are looking at is in Eastern Oregon, what you will probably find is that a dual wind/solar system would be best.  I know here (close to Klamath Falls) there are times when we have a lot of wind, but it isn't consistent enough to be a sole power source.  The sun is *almost* consistent enough, but with a wind back-up we'd probably be fine. 

There are several really helpful books that I found at our local library -- look for the most recent publication dates, as our library still has some books on the shelves that are thirty years old.  I'm pretty sure the technology has changed a bit since those books were written!  I went in with almost zero understanding of the topic; after reading a couple of those books through at least twice I now have some idea what is needed to set up a system!  Still wouldn't want to tackle it alone, but would have some idea what the installers were doing and why. 

All that said, your budget and power needs will determine what you put in.  For myself and my DD, someday when we are able to build our own tiny little cabin, we'll only need enough power for a few lights, a well-pump, and a lap-top and a DVD player (DD has a little one that will run off the cigarette lighter in the truck).  So we could get by just fine with what they call a micro-system, which would only cost less than five thousand dollars (maybe a lot less, depending on what we started with).  That would include a couple of solar panels, a micro wind turbine, batteries, inverter, and a control panel (hopefully I'm not forgetting anything there -- I don't have any of the books at home right now).  You have a bigger family and are planning a bigger house, so would need a bigger system.  With a large-enough battery bank, you could probably use the wind-turbine to charge the batteries much of the time, and use a few solar panels to supplement when the wind isn't blowing.  Since you have some wind-turbine expertise already in the family, that might be the best way to go.  But I think that the wind turbines are a lot more expensive than solar panels, and also require more expertise to maintain and repair (and probably require more maintenance and repairs, too).  You'd need to sit down with someone who does this stuff for a living and have them help you figure out how to size your system.

Kathleen

[Thoughts-from-Jules]

I have been doing just that, thinking about our power usage, and I know for sure we need to reduce the load.  Where we live now our power bill says we consume approx 1800kwh per month.  There are a lot of things we could do here to reduce power like not using flood light style bulbs in the recessed lights (but you have to buy the special energy saving dimming bulbs and they are spendy.)  Then we were thinking it would be possible to go without a dishwasher (gasp) and then a gas stove and clothes dryer, what about a frig do those take a lot of power?  Is propane frig and freezer units a good idea.  I get a little nervous about so much being fed by gas because what if those prices hike up and we can't afford to buy hundreds of gallons of propane that we need to make it thru winter???  So there has to be that balance, where you go ahead and pay for the solar/wind upfront but don't have such high costs from then on for usage.....as you would with propane that you have to keep paying for as you use it.  Then a gas furnace for backup to the woodheat.

We'd have to reduce the amount of laundry we do by a long ways (yipee for me) and start drying more on the line as well.  Which we already do some in the summer.  I am prepared to make some changes in our usage for sure.  Design the house with alot of natural light and that will help a lot during the daytimes.

I did one calculator for solar power online and it said our system would cost $125,000!!!!  I am assuming that is all professionally designed and installed.  We'd have to throw ourselves into the research and try to do as much as we can ourselves to keep costs down for the installation and configuration.  That figure was for our current consumption without taking into consideration we'd be reducing our usage.

I figured we'd go with a smaller wind turbine for cloudy days when the solar doesn't perform as needed.  Then mostly solar (thinking most power will come from that), and a backup propane or gas/diesel generator.  That might cover it.  We already have a gas generator which would work for those times power goes out, it just isn't big enough to run a whole household.

Anyway there is so much info out there you don't know what to trust and how much is all fluff.

[Beavers]

I'm still in the off grid research phase like you.

I haven't read much good about small scale wind turbines.  From what I've read online, they aren't very reliable (they break down alot) and unless used in ideal conditions they don't produce much power.  The wind speeds to produce maximum power  are usually VERY high, and most locations don't have enough wind to produce much power.  

Solar seems to be much cheaper, less likely to break down, and is hands down the best band for the buck.

I just reread your post..1800 kwh per month!!!!   Making your own power is very expensive, if I remember correct it costs $2-3 PER KWH for off grid power, compared to around 10 CENTS per KWH to get it from the power company.   Just a really rough estimate, but $14k should get you only 450 kwh per month.  

I'm really not trying to bring you down...but going off grid isn't a way to save money.  Unless you are willing to make huge lifestyle changes, and give up a lot, then paying the $14k to hook up to the utility will be much easier IMO.

[MountainDon]

You already know there are two "first things" to do, they sort of go hand in hand. Figure out exactly what you need to power and how to eliminate waste. You can work from where you are in the existing house and make changes and see what happens. You can buy a Kill-A-Watt or similar meter and actually measure devices to see if they use as much as the label says or less. I have found things that use less than the rating on the label. There are many online calculators, some better than others. You can also try to think your way through and manually calculate. It's easy to underestimate if you are not careful though.

Switching major appliances from electric to gas can be done, but as far as I am concerned one must be careful about that. Depending on current and future costs changing to propane can end up costing more. There are propane powered refrigerators, but if you shop carefully you can find very efficient 120 VAC refrigerators. The propane refrigerators are very expensive when you compare equal sizes. One further note on propane refrigerators; I have read that some of the large ones do not cool as well as smaller ones. I believe peter nap decided two Servels worked better than one larger other brand.

We do have a Servel propane in our cabin. However, it is part time, and if it had been intended for full time use I would have preferred to put more money into PV panels and batteries and run electric.

There is an Off Grid power topic in the "stickies" in the General forum. There is also a newly added spreadsheet to calculate system loads, batteries and panels. It is, however, aimed at small systems in that there are only a dozen or so load input lines and panel calculator section is rather simple.


Wow! 1800 KwH per month!  That seems a lot. Here in our 1600 sq ft home we average 500 KwH a month but more in summer with the A/C. Electric cookstove, gas dryer and furnace. 2 adults who are not real good about turning lights off when not needed. That's about $50 a month average. Our natural gas bill runs an average of $35 a month.

Check  http://www.dsireusa.org/  for all energy rebate information.


I figure that to cover our existing use totally with solar it would cost about $35K for the equipment if we didn't have to or want to run the A/C in the summer. If we want summer A/C we'd have to make some changes all which would cost many more dollars.


Being electrically independent of the grid does not come cheap unless your use is minimal.


Oh, our cabin would have been on grid but for the fact that the power company wanted $55K to run in the power. Mandatory underground lines through national forest land.

[Thoughts-from-Jules]

Hmmm maybe we need to do an energy audit here!  This month was one of our higher energy usage months, normally it is down around 1300 but still that is high compared to what you all are talking about.  Beings we do TONS of laundry per week and we are terrible about leaving lights on (we like a bright house), we might not make good candidates for off grid!  DH and I did some more research and I just don't think it is feasible to do solar at this time, however we decided at some point if we want to reduce our power bill we can always supplement with solar panels as we can afford them.  If power is around $15,000 to run we will likely go ahead in that direction.   Now you all have me wondering where all that power is going!  We have energy efficient appliances and the house is well insulated and has new wiring.  We use wood heat and sometimes a gas furnace.  We do run AC in the summer.

Maybe the Christmas lights had something to do with December's usage?? lol

[MountainDon]

What type of lighting do you have? Every light inside or outside our home is either a CFL or a tube fluorescent with the exceptions of a fewthings like fridge and oven lights, a closet where the light is an incandescent but on a 5 minute maximum timer. Those all reduced our consumption. Halogens are better than plain old incandescents but not nearly as good a CFL.

Our furnace is a high efficiency model only a couple years old, which includes a high efficiency DC motor.

[Sassy]

Hi Jules (Julie?)
After we had moved up to our cabin in the mountains, I would spend a few days down at our house in the valley where I worked.  The power kept increasing on a monthly basis - I used very little, DH wasn't using the shop anymore, I couldn't understand why it kept going up.  I called the power company & they asked me to check the meter & give them the number it was showing.  I read off the 4 #'s it showed for power usage - they told me to go check it again, there should be 5 #'s - anyway, seems they were charging us for 5#'s, however that worked.  When they realized their error, they said they would correct it - credited us with about $600 (we probably had been paying $1000's extra for years) & my bill went to about a 1/3 from what it had been.    You might want to have your meter checked out if you can't figure out why the bill is so high.

We are off grid at our cabin in the mountains.  We have a wind generator that has NEVER broken down or given us any problem for the past 7+ yrs & we've gradually added to our solar over that same time to where we now have about 3300 watts of solar plus the wind generator (I think - Glenn's not here right now to correct me   )  We changed from a propane fridge to an electric last summer, we have a regular pump in our well, we have a 20 cu ft & a 8 cu ft freezer, a propane cooking stove & dryer, regular washer, our 2 laptop computers, lights, etc.  We heat with wood.  The weather here gets down into the 30's at night during the winter & over 100's on summer days.  We don't run AC, just use fans.  We are careful about turning lights off & doing the wash or running tools, equip when we are generating the most power.  We also have generators that we have to kick on at times when it has been overcast & no wind for periods of time.  Most of the time we don't even notice that we aren't on the grid except when the people from town or neighbors don't have power & we still do  

Glenn set up our whole system.  He does the maintenance, although I will check the batteries for water from time to time & fill them if they need it.  There's a certain amt of maintenance needed for the solar & also quite a bit of knowledge in setting it up.  Looks like you are doing your homework & good advice from the others.  

You can read about some of our adventures here  http://www.countryplans.com/underground.html  or http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=151.0

[suburbancowboy]

If it was me and i was looking at paying that much for power, I would definitively go solar.  Unless you are going to be up there full time I wouldn't worry about wind.  Usually as a rule of thumb if you have enough wind for wind electricity you don't want to live there because it will be to windy.  With the cost of solar going down it is the way to go.  I would also get a generator for those extended stays and cloudy days.

[Freeholdfarm]

Julie, you might think about making some major life-style changes, in order to be able to afford the off-grid power system, and then add to it gradually like Sassy was describing.  It's entirely possible to live without any electricity or running water (been there, done that, and my mother raised five babies while hauling water up from the lake and heating it on either a propane stove or a barrel stove).  It's not convenient, it's a lot more work, but it is possible.  So anything you can afford that's UP from no electricity at all will be a plus!  If you can look at it that way, instead of looking at what you'd have to cut that you have now, it might be easier!

One thing you can do for laundry is to make a sunspace where you can hang laundry to dry in cold weather.  I think the hardest thing to manage without electricity is laundry, especially when you have a big family.  Although, you can also thin out some of the clothes, and make people wear them more than one day unless they are really filthy! 

You would probably want to figure out how to do a solar water heater, with backup from your wood stove, too.  Hot water heaters are one of the larger power users.

Planning and building an off-grid house is a lot of work, mostly mental, but it's worth it in the long run when you don't have to worry about power bills coming in (and going up!).

Keep in mind, too, that the economy is likely to get a LOT worse over the next few years, so anything you can do now to make your family more secure in the future is to the good.

Kathleen

[Sassy]

Good ideas, Kathleen, glad you are back!

We started out without much of anything, plastic walls, dirt floors, wood stove...  we did have a small RV that had a stove, shower etc (part of a horse trailer). 

I'd hang my clothes out but the ground is so uneven & with 3 dogs & neighbor dogs, I'm afraid they'd take off with the clothes.

It's a little more difficult with 4 kids, btw, how old are they?  You could pretend you are camping    My parents took us camping all the time & we loved it (4 kids, dog & cat).  You're home schooling, so that helps.

Have you read Ernest T. Bass's thread?  He's part of a large family (he's maybe 19 now?) that is home schooled, they are off grid, built their own cordwood home & heat it with a "rocket stove" - very interesting & creative!   He's building a vertical log cabin right now.  That family is amazing!

[glenn kangiser]

Wind 100 feet up where the generator should be is about 3 times that on the ground so it may be good wind area and still not be too bad on the ground.  Home generators can benefit their owners even in areas that are not windy enough for commercial use.

Wind will assist charging when it is cloudy and at night or during storms when there is no solar power to speak of.  We have a Bergey XL1 and are very happy with it.  We are not in a great wind area but still have pretty good benefit from our generator.

I also recommend going solar and forget the power company if you don't mind learning about it and taking care of it.  Panel prices are way down currently.

Doing it yourself, 14000 could get you started on a pretty good system.  The savings from the tax breaks if available will likely be counteracted by the increased taxes for having the system.  Here it is mandatory to hook to the grid to get the tax breaks.  To heck with them I say.

Wind zone 4 looks reasonably decent.  http://www.solardyne.com/wizode.html

[considerations]

There is a lot to think about, and sometimes it is just downright confusing. 

But, I live (single-o) off the grid and have for 5 years now. Until very recently I only had 2 - 170 watt solar panels and a 250 watt inverter and 2 - 6 volt golf cart batteries and a 1000 watt generator running my 5th wheel using a propane rv fridge and a propane water heater, and an electric fence that encompasses about 4 acres. I had to run the gen in the winter for about 4 hours every 2 days.

I'm in the cabin now, its winter in western Washington and the days are short  and tend to be overcast.  So now I have a 2000 watt inverter, the same 2 solar panels (although clearly I need more), 6 - 6 volt golf cart batteries, and run the same gen once a day, or twice if needed. That powers my hotel sized electric fridge, a freezer the same size, all the computer stuff, a couple lights, the electric fence, and the occasional drill, sewing machine, or iron, etc.  My system is too small to operate without being tended carefully, but I can and will continue to increase its capacity. 

Solar panels have dropped to less than 1/2 the price I paid for mine 5 years ago, it makes me drool. There used to be, and may still be at least Federal tax rebates that were very attractive, like 30%. There was, and may still be no sales tax charged on alternative energy components.

I want to add panels up to 2000 watts, I want a small wind mill, and one more 1000 watt gen that could be run in tandem with the other or used as backup if one of them needs repairs or maintenance. 

Ok, that's a lot of words...what I'm getting at is a couple things.

I don't take for granted the power I can produce.  I'm a fiend about turning off what is not being used.  As time goes on, I'm learning what I really want to have and work toward increasing the system's capacity to accommodate the "need". By the time I acquire all of the electrical items and generating capacity I want, I should understand how much electricity an item either uses or produces, and I should know how to take care of it.

The other conclusion I've come to is that electricity is sort of like currency.  There are multiple ways to produce power, but if the power being produced is electric, then its pretty easy to find an item that uses it. 

That being said, I am planning for a propane stove, and a back up propane heater, but that is because I think the dollars and time needed to increase my power producing capacity to make it large enough to serve the needs of an electric stove or heater would be too high and take too long.  I do not want to wait that long to cook on a modern stove, so propane it is.

I don't even get to think about a dryer yet, there is way too much else to do first....(laundry mat about a mile away, and a clothes line take care of the issue)

So far I've spent on my system approximately the same amount i was quoted by the power company to bring the power in here, however, I don't get a bill from them every month.  Since November, I've spent about $90 on gasoline to feed the gen....and although I have to pay attention to the system and make choices, my power needs are being met.

Some or none of this may apply to your situation, but if you can spend $14K and put in an adequate power system that won't keep sending you a bill every month after the installation, I think it would be worth investigating.   Hope this rambling helps you consider the issues.

[MountainDon]

Glenn, I have not looked at the extensive list for CA state incentives, but the federal 30% tax credit is federal with no strings attached other than... systems must be placed in service on or after January 1, 2009 to get the 30% with no maximum limit. As well the home served by the system does not have to be the taxpayer's principal residence, which makes our cabin PV system eligible. Everything from the pole and panels, through the wires to the CC, batteries, inverter, lightning protection and the wire to the service panel is included. From the service panel on into the cabin is "normal" and does not count towards the tax credit. There is no mention of grid tie or not. You simply complete IRS form 5695 along with your 1040. IF you receive a grant from the state or local government that may have to be reported as income, but you still can claim the federal tax credit. The credit is good on wind as well as PV systems, grid tied or not.

Of course you must spend the money up front and then have sufficient tax liability to place the credit against.

Each state has an assortment of plans with an assortment of it's own if's and but's on their own plans. But the federal tax credit is very straightforward.

States may also rebate or exempt the state sales taxes on equipement. NM exempts the tax on PV equipment.

As for a homeowner being taxed for producing electricity I doubt that is a worry. But maybe that's just me.

see  http://www.dsireusa.org/  for all credits and incentives info.

[glenn kangiser]

You are more up to date on the fed stuff than I, Don.

In Ca. a copy of the Fed taxes are required to be filed with state so I am just assuming that if a form is filed for federal credit then state will get it and assess perpetual property taxes on the system.

 

[MountainDon]

Well, that does raise an interesting question. Does installing a PV or wind system raise the value of the property? If so, then I can see the county raising the appraisal value when they find out about it. It might take some counties more or less time than others, but they will find out. So the way I see it I'll take credits if the hoops are low enough or big enough to jump through easily.

We're still paying just under a $100 a year taxes on the unimproved mountain land. 

[Thoughts-from-Jules]

Wow so much great info!  We went up to the property again today. We had dense fog here and we were wanting to see if we would be above the fog there.  It was, barely!  It was also windy and bitter cold thanks to the wind chill.  Talk about chill you to the bone.  On the way into the driveway we encountered an ice lake 4" deep accross the road....from the snow melt during the day and freezing at night, we were able to chain up and get thru it but it was trecherous.  Then once we were up there is was beautiful, but it was apparent we'd need to build the road up quite a bit to counteract teh snow drift action and the ice build up from nearby springs running down the roadway.  So as DH is running thru the bid numbers as we drive along the road we are starting to realize it isn't just a matter of adding some finish gravel and a little fill here and there, it is a matter of raising the whole road bed 2 ft in some places for quite a ways.....and while my family owns a construction/excavation company that would still be considerable cost for materials.  We are going to invite my Dad up to take a look and see if he thinks we should take it on or if he has some good ideas for the project.

As far as power goes, still on the fence, keep thinking just hooking to the grid would be simpler but it sure is hard knowing you are spending a huge chunk of money to get the honor of having a power bill each and every month.  lol

So things aren't looking as good for the property at this point.  We are curently doing a cost comparison for building lower in elevation around our current town but paying more for land and up there where the land is considerably cheaper but you need more high ticket items to get it livable.

There is so very much to consider and weigh out, solar and wind power being some of them.

[firefox]

Hi Sassy,
     Have Glenn set up a close line that is 15' high between two trees,
along with some steps to a platform. Also a pully to hoist the laundry to the platform.
Bruce

[glenn kangiser]

I like it, Bruce, but I already have a lot of projects...

[firefox]

Why am I not surprised
Sorry, didn't think that one through.
Bruce

[Sassy]

Hi Sassy,
     Have Glenn set up a close line that is 15' high between two trees,
along with some steps to a platform. Also a pully to hoist the laundry to the platform.
Bruce

  Well, I did have a clothesline downstairs in the greatroom until we put the floor in - it didn't work too good in the winter, but the summer was pretty good...

[ak_rob]

After reading though this I see you mention water problems and a spring would hydro work?

[Thoughts-from-Jules]

The water issue with the ice dam is about 3/4 mile from our property, it is a combo of springs and snow melt then refreezing at night.  The spring box run off starts about 1/2 mile from the property.  According to DH who does estimating for a living for construction projects including road building, much of the road will have to be raised 2 ft and culverts put in.  It is all a little overwhelming at this point, but this is the kind of project my Dad loves to design and build, it just depends on is he has time this year.

I wonder if there being springs within that distance is a good sign for finding water more shallow with a well on our property?  I can hope anyway! lol

I will post pics of the ice issue and some more of the land.  It was sooooo cold with that wind chill but the snow had melted off since the last time we were there.

Here Dh is chaining up. 





See why I love with this property!?