Iran War Already Begun?

[MountainDon]

Peg..... .. I know you dislike the UN...

Just to comment on a small portion of what you had to say....

I believe the present day UN has outlived its usefulness. For one... too many of the member countries who would impose their will upon us and the rest of the world, claim to be democracies, but in reality are often very much less than true democracies. (What most folks think of as a democracy are usually republics, like the USA, but that's another story.)

There are 192 UN member countries. Depending on who you believe, the number of countries that are true democracies is 89 at the most; probably many fewer. I don't want those countries adversely impacting my country of choice. Less than one half of the countries and less than one half of the world's people are free, according to Freedom House  http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=15  
As far as I'm concerned NONE of the countries listed as "not free" or "partly free" have an business telling a "free" country how they should go about their daily business.

Looking at the so-called :"free" countries, there are many I would not choose to live in over the USA, because they are too socialist.

No matter what you may think of the present US government,  the USA is still the best country in the world to live in. In my opinion.

BTW, The UN inspectors (in Iraq) only got to see what they were allowed to see.

[glenn-k]

No matter what you may think of the present US government,  the USA is still the best country in the world to live in.

That would have to be -- In spite of the current administration and what they are doing to the country.  Freedom is really gone now if they have any reason to not want you to have it.  

Even war heroes have lost their freedom to the current administration and their police state laws.  We have freedom as long as we don't want to go anywhere.  The TSA has made me a prisoner here- I will not subject myself to the idiots.  

Korean War hero branded a terrorist by draft-dodging Shrub

[MountainDon]

#6: Yes not finding those weapons was a mistake either in not getting to them in time , or by us , US , making it up . Where his cem weapons when is also a issue , I think Syria , but I have no proof , or they are still burried in some sand hill.

You do have me on this one , so I say yup without those weapons we US have really srewed the pooch, but the world , IMO is better off without ole Saddum , he was pretty dumb to push it to the limit with the weapons inspector if you ask me , which you didn't , but thats my .02 cents on it.

#7: Well Israel isn't to happy Iran is processing  weaps grade plutoium , but hey they're just Jews so they are the ones who should be driven into the sea. Right?? And I don't believe you can show where any Jewish politcal lead has expressed that stance , but I know I can show  a few Arab's leaders who have.

#8: I don't think Bush wants a war with Iran any more than I do , but he does want them to lay off the weapons grade stuff , as do I. But then again that's just my opinion , YMMV.

Well, I think Syria is in deep doo-doo on this. I believe they either have the missing WMD or know about them.

The world is a very confusing political place, but I do believe that the formation of the country of Israel was the correct thing to do. Israel is a free country, surrounded by non-free countries.

As far as Iran goes, nobody here really wants a war with them, but they are not acting like "good world citizens".

[benevolance]

Why was putting the jews in Israel a good thing...knowing it would cause war and instability???

Several other options were on the table...In Africa south America...better land...More territory, natural resources...Less resistence from locals...

But they put the jews in the one place that would create the most upheaval and problems...

Perspective is a powerful thing and the media reports what governments want them to report...The winning side of a conflict often gets to say who is the hero and who is the war criminal.

No matter what Israel puts itself beyonf condemnation...For breaking international law...For settling disputed lands...For what they do daily to refugeees that they displaced....And for having nukes and refusing to allow the rest of the world to inspect their weapon facilities.

Any resolution to put pressure on the Israel is always vetoed by the USA....So there is no chance ever that Israel has to be accountable for their actions. As an ally of the USA and the USA having veto power....Israel can do as it wants

And if another country in that region gets agressive they face invasion or sanctions....

Despite what many people still believe...The UN did not come out and say that they were not allowed to inspect and search for weapons in Iraq....

One part of the process is to update intelligence....It is not all about finding nukes...that is a bonus...

one of the biggest attributes to being allowed to go into a country is that you can make detailed notes take pictures so that you can have accurate accounts of everything in the country in terms of capability to manufacture goods. When Iraq allowed inspections to happen they allowed the whole world to monitor every aspect of their economy and the information gathered would allow the world to gauge the capability for Iraq to produce weapons for years and years to come.

And the reports from the Inspectors was not that they were only allowed to go to a few places....There were seven teams flying where they wanted in teams of helicopters...Fast moving highly mobile scattering the whole country...Checking every kind of factory....Medical agricultural...chemical...If there was a chance the factory could make a weapon or a component for a weapon it was being examined.... They were updating lists and checking off potential sites to produce things that could be dangerous.

This is what the UN was doing when the USA invaded....

Like Saddam or hate him...Co-operation with the rest of the world was happening.....He was a bad man....I shed no tears for his death....But to kill thousands just to remove him.....A complete waste of human life.

If you remember the UN had to pull dozens of inspectors from Iraq before the invasion....Because there were all kinds of teams doing what they were supposed to be doing...

Also if you remember there was an offer on the table for Saddam to go live in Saudi Arabia or Egypt... They did not want Saddam to die they were not itching to execute him as a war criminal...They just wanted control of Iraq....Access to the oil and the ability to extract the wealth at the expense of the local population.

[benevolance]

oh and another thing....Peg talked about weapon grade uranium

Iran has 3000 centrifuges for enrichment...They would need something like 60,000....So it would take at least a decade to get that many centrifuges online

Iran is only capable now of enriching uranium to 3%..Which is fuel grade....Weapons grade is much much higher...And currently not something Iran is even capable of...

Another important thing to consider is that if The world allowed Russia to finish building the Nuke power plants in Iran...They would be using up their enriched uranium in the power plants... And the whole process can be monitored...

If there are no sanctions...And inspectors are allowed in...The UN watchdog can go in and monitor every aspect of enrichment... Meaning someone can be there 24/7 to monitor how much uranium is enriched to what level....etc...

the UN watchdog has put seals on Iranian containers of uranium....And Iran allowed the uranium not to be touched for a year and a half...While the rest of the world talked about making it feasible for Iran to give up nuke power.

I do not blame Iran for saying after a year or so....Well if you are not going to give us cheap abundant power for our exploding economy and population...We need to keep going on making nuclear fuel.

At that point the tactic changed from...Stop enrichment or face sanctions...Not stop enrichment and we will negotiate a deal that will ensure your energy needs are met.....The world lead by the USA has said that no negotations will even start until uranium is no longer enriched...

According to international law It is not illegal to enrich uranium if you allow the UN watchdog to have access to facilities and to inspect the process....which Iran has been doing....So they are not violating the terms of the non proliferation treaty.

So there has been a lot of sandbagging by the US government...And they truly have little to no interest in working this out...offering Iran a solution to their energy needs...Or ending this peacefully.

In North Korea there was at least some effort to resolve the crisis...North Korea could get two light water nuclear reactors to generate electricity...And on top of that they would get subsidized fuel oil.... Light water power generation is inferior to heavy water power generation....But heavy water reactors create spent fuel rods that can be used for nuclear weapons

Iran has not been offered anything substantive to abandon Nuclear Energy.... We expect Iran to use all their oil and gas for power generation....We here forget that it is about their only abundant valueable resource for Export....

I cannot Blame Iran for wanting cheap abundant energy in the form of nuclear energy...So that they can sell their oil and gas to the west for incredible profits

[MountainDon]

Why was putting the jews in Israel a good thing...knowing it would cause war and instability???

Well, my recollection of history is such that I believe the Jews had and continue to have as much right to be there as the Arabs. The area abounds with Jewish history.

YMMV

As well Israel is the only democracy in the middle east. That to me says a whole lot about their neighbors.

[benevolance]

Don

Nobody disputes the fact that the bible tells about Israelites... the promise land...The return...

this would be great if the land was vacant....But it was not....It is an atrocious thing to remove people from the land they are living on against their will... to round them up and kill any that oppose...To force them into Syria, Jordan Egypt or into the sea....

What really appauls me the most is that they would treat another group of human beings this way immediately after the holocaust.... I guess they are basically saying it was okay for the Germans to take their lands wealth and kill whoever they wanted among the jews?....Because that is what they did when they left Europe for the middle East

Democracy is overrated when you have right wing nut jobs like Bush in office...

[MountainDon]

...the promise land...

Democracy is overrated when you have right wing nut jobs like Bush in office...

It was the beloved UN that originally decided on the plan for the State of Israel.

As far as democracy being overrated... it still beats all the alternatives that have been tried over the ages, some of which continue today; communism (China, Cuba), dictatorship (N. Korea and also communist), theocracy (Iran, and a republic as well for what it's worth), socialism, sultanate, totalitarianism, or anarchy to mention but a few. Try living under any of them and see how much you'd like it. There are faults with any of those. Not all democracies or republics are equal or as desirable to live in either.

The various forms of democracy may not be perfect, and you will not find anything that fits all people to a T. However, democracy does have tools to provide for change within the bounds of law. Even if it may take 8 years, it is still possible to make some changes. Much easier under a democracy/republic than under governments run by the likes of Hitler, Stalin, Saddam, the Arabian sheiks, Castro, Hugo Chavez, the list goes on ......) Under those types of rule the only effective tools are the ones with firing pins. And that's only if you and I, the common man, have access to them.

[benevolance]

Don
Israel was an idea conceived and passed through the UN... As long as There was a Ally to the West in the middle east...Britian France and the United states could be assured control over the Suez Canal

This is why The middle east was selected as the Jewish state

If Tomorrow a country submitted a proposal to set up a state say the territory of Arizona...For Russians....Do you think that the people living in Arizona would just stand up pack their gear and leave?

Of course not.....And neither did the millions of palestinians that were living in what is now Israel.

So no matter the historical context...It cannot be argued that it was right to put those people to the sword to create the Jewish state.

I support democracy....However after the last 2 elections in this country I am very skeptical on how much freedom the people truly have when it comes to who runs the country...

China seems to be figuring out a way to make communism work...And for years so did Russia...Until we did everything we could to cut the legs out from under them to dissolve the USSR

Democracy is not the be all end all... Any system of Government can be horrible (see Bush, George W.)...Even Democracy

[fourx]

Democracy is a term often raised to justify the worst excesses of Israeli apartheid, but really democracy is a movable feast, and the shouting matches which pass as parlimentry debate in the Knesset along with the surprisingly high percentage of the members being investigated for corrupt conduct at any one time is apt to give democracy a bad name- although the raft of debt and nepotism riddled democratic hellholes in Africa seem to have done that already.
I don't call having your crotch snuffed by a drug and explosives detecting police dog as you walk onto a railway platform, or being liable to a fine or imprisionment if you don't vote being democratic either, but both are the norm in supposedly democratic Australia.

[Sassy]

It may be too early in the morning for me to get into this discussion  :-/ but - I think others have said this before on this forum - democracy is often just "mob rule" whereas our country was founded as a "republic"...  

In the Bible Yaweh promised the Israelites the land "if they were faithful & followed His commandments" - He also spoke of a "new covenant" throughout the Old Testament - which was the promise of a "Messiah" - the Jews are still looking forward to that Messiah... whereas the "Christian's" believe the Christ was the Messiah.

But, putting that aside, the covenant was contingent on obedience & following Yaweh's commands - which, I don't believe the "nation of Israel" has done - from what I have read, the "Zionists" have a mostly secular society & even faithful Jews speak out against what the Zionists are doing.

So that leaves the question - have they re-occupied according to Yaweh's commands or have they done it according to man's will & desires... so many in the Western "Christian" world think they have reoccupied the "Promised Land" - but have they?  

A really good book, which I've mentioned before is Light Force by Bro Andrew (he smuggled Bibles into communist Russia & East Germany for years) Bro Andrew now brings the gospel of Christ to both the Palestinians & the Jews, works closely with the Palestinian Christians in helping them both physically & spiritually & sheds a whole new light on the atrocities that the Zionist Jews are pouring out on the Palestinians.

The Bible also speaks of great judgment on the nation of Israel through "Assyria" because of the apostasy & disobedience...

Regarding Iraq - I was speaking to one of the doctors - he's actually Pakastani & a also a Muslim - he made the remark that the Shi'ites & Sunnis have lived peacefully together for centuries - yes, they have their squabbles, but on the whole they get along, even inter-marry.  He says the real battle is against the occupying forces - that the media misleads the public on what is really happening in always referring to civil war...

[Sassy]

BTW, I took care of a young veteran - 23 y/o the other night - who had served in Iraq - had traumatic brain injury from an explosion - anyway, having lots of grand mal seizures - trying to get service connection for the injury so that he can have some kind of income for he & his wife - has been trying to get it for 2 yrs since he was discharged due to the injury...

sad...  he'd had 2 seizures at home while taking a shower, came by ambulance & within 5 minutes of getting to our ER, had another one... multiply that by 1000's of our young veterans & troops; then multiply that by 10's of 1000's to reflect the injured Iraqis - so unnecessary, so tragic.  I felt so sorry for this young man & his wife (don't know if they had any kids).  

[benevolance]

the world is a small place. When Israel takes from the palestinians... and places them in refugee camps...It is hard to sit there and listen to the BS excuse for the actions...."that this is the land promised to us by God; therefor this is the right thing to do to these people that were on the land"

Murder is still murder... theft is still theft....Greed is still Greed....All sins... Funny they are mentioning God....They will not be seeing him when they leave this realm :-/

[fourx]

Two questions, Benevolance and Sassy- do you think that the Israeli occupation of Palestinian land, mainly that portion occupied since 1967 which seems to be the main blockage in the peace process, and US funding off it, is behind most terrorist acts directed at the US and it's supporters?
And the second is, are there any Muslims in the top ranks of the US Government?

[Sassy]

fourx, I couldn't really say on either - except that recently Condi Rice swore in someone who used the Koran instead of the Bible.  I think there's the "globalist" agenda & there's the Muslim & "Christian" agenda.  

I believe that God, according to the Bible, promised the land - lots more, in fact, to Israel - but it was totally conditional.  They were to treat their neighbors as themselves, & also, there is a lot said about the "alien" among them - if the alien wants to live with them & follow their God & laws they are to treat him with respect & kindness, because they were once aliens.  If the Israelites were disobedient, they would bring a curse on themselves & lose the promised land.  So, there is a lot of responsibility on the part of Israel to abide by the commandments.  But then, if you believe the Messiah has already come in the person of Jesus, then the Jews who reject him have totally missed the boat & the old covenant no longer applies as it was replaced by the new covenant.  The old covenant was by works, the new covenant by faith.

There are evil men who have infiltrated all gov'ts & religions - so I'm not surprised when any of them come up with terrorist attacks or despicable behavior.  Jesus warned that in the last days, men would be lovers of themselves & not care about their neighbor, God, country or the earth...

In the Old Testament, God also blessed Ishmael & Haggar (his mother) as they, too, were of Abraham's seed.  God does not leave anyone out - but when Mohammed wrote the Koran (Qua'ran) it was because the Jews disdained his people & ostrasized them - there is always the choice of reconciliation with God but the Jews, by their behavior, totally tried to block Mohammed's people, so a new religion was born.  There's a lot of similarities but there are distinct differences, also.  Allah is considered merciful, but distant & it is all on your own shoulders whether you make it to heaven/paradise or not, it's the same for the Jews, but true Christians have a mediator who took the punishment we deserved on himself, so by faith, they accept that.

So, I probably didn't answer your questions, but I answered from my world view.  

[fourx]

And a very interesting answer it was, Sassy. I live a short plane flight from the largest Muslim nation on Earth, Indonesia, and have spent a lot of time there, as well as Malaysia. In all parts of both countries except Bali, Islam is the predominante faith and the majior basis of everyday life, and I have to say that without exception the Muslims I have lived and worked with there and in the rest of SE Asia are the nicest, most easy-going and least fundamentalist people you would ever want to meet.

[Sassy]

I work with doctors & nurses from all over the world so am fortunate to learn about their cultures & beliefs - I also do a lot of reading on what others believe...  

here's some stories from a different perspective...

Five Christians Charged with Blasphemy - Voice of the Martyr  Sources
Five Christians have been charged with blasphemy under Pakistan's blasphemy laws 295-A and 295-C, in Toba Tek Singh, Pakistan. Daniel, an 11-year-old Christian boy, refused to play with his Muslim friends, resulting in them beating him. When Daniel's family confronted the attackers, the Muslims called the police and made a false report saying they had blasphemed the name of the Holy Prophet. Now Daniel's family-Rashid Masih, Salamat Masih, Sahba Masih Motta, Bao Masih and Sheela Masih-is living under threat of attack by Muslim extremists. The Muslim family told other Muslims at a religious gathering that the Christians had disgraced the Holy Prophet, tore a holy sticker and beat it with a shoe. This has led to tension in the city. Christians in the area fear Muslim extremists will attack the family. There was fear there would be attacks during celebrations leading up to Easter Sunday. If convicted under blasphemy laws 295-A and 295-C, the family faces three years imprisonment, a fine and the death penalty, or life imprisonment and a fine.

LIAONING PROVINCE  On March 14, local police arrested 54-year-old house-church leader, Gu Changrong, in Fushun City, Liaoning Province, after she shared her faith with the secretary of the Communist Party in her village. According to China Aid Association (CAA), Yu Mingfu called the police and accused Gu of "poisoning Communist Party members with the Christian message." According to Gu's relatives, she has been sentenced to one-year of re-education through labor for "using evil cult organizations to obstruct the exercising of state laws." The family has not received a formal notice of her sentence since her arrest, according to CAA. Gu is serving her sentence at Ma San Jian Labor Camp, which is known for its harsh treatment and torture against thousands of imprisoned Falun Gong members.

Pastors Arrested VOM Sources
In the city of Varanasi, Rajendra Chawhan, a pastor and evangelist, has been working to reach non-believers in an area outside Varanasi. He has been holding prayer meetings that have grown to more than a thousand believers and this has angered radical Hindu groups. The pastor has been arrested and beaten several times. Following a recent prayer and healing service, Pastor Chawhan was beaten by Hindu extremists and taken to the police, who arrested him. This was the sixth time he had been arrested. Some Christians went to jail to protest his arrest and were beaten by extremists, while the police turned a blind eye.

So, persecution happens everywhere...

[MountainDon]

It can sour one's views on religion at times.  

To reply to fourx's ? re muslims in US gov'mnt... there are no significantly placed members that are muslim. The was that recent case of controversy over the swearing in on the Koran, but that's about all I'm sure of.

[benevolance]

Well

I truly believe that Israel has tarnished the Image of the USA to the rest of the world....

When the UN put the Israel partition to the vote in the late 40's...Every Country in that region voted against it...But only a few countries have vetos... So the bill passed and Israel was forced down the throats of all the middle eastern countries.

of all the poor african nations where people starve to death and disease runs rampant....Guess what country has gotten more aid and money from the USA in the last 60 years than any other....yes you guessed it: Israel.

Israel could not wage war in that area and win without Military support and monies from the USA...

Kind of like when the southern states decided to break free of the USA when Lincoln did not even try to win a  southern state and still became president....The Middle east felt like they had no say whatsoever in their own affairs...There was clear unified adamant rejection to the creation if Israel by everyone in the region...And yet despite this unity there was nothing they could do to stop it..

Which is why the initial war broke out when Israel made a declaration of Independence to the world....And after that it has been a land grab by Israel ever since...

Jimmy Carter has spoken out against Israel for 30 years...because years ago he worked for a couple of years on the Camp David Peace proposal...And he has clearly stated that Israel in no way shape or form has ever tried to live upto any of the conditions of that accord.... Doing so would be giving up key pieces of land and water rights...

In fact if you follow the history of battles in the region there has been a clear agenda from the Jewish Side...Secure the water...a vast portion of the water for Jerusalem is pumped from the occupied territories into Israel...

Agreeing to release the occupied territories would mean giving up scarce plentiful water in the west bank and Israel is in no way prepared to do this... This occupation is more about water resources and continued expansion into the territory by settlers even though it is a direct violation of international law...Something that warrants heavy sanctions from the world (but the world knows sanctions will never pass because the USA has Veto power and any bill proposed to sanction Israel gets vetoed)

Israel always talks about security....They have American Planes tanks and ships...They have nukes...There is Zero chance that they could ever be run over by their enemies...In any major offensive if Israel were in trouble of being overrun by enemies the USA would just come in and wipe out any threat to their Ally in the Middle east...

They would cite the need to protect a democracy....or whatever and they would come in...

So hell yes the world loathes us for Israel...Israel does not have to follow the Geneva Convention and the US veto power protects them from punishment...Israel continues to expand their borders at the expense of millions of refugees... There is plenty of reason for bitterness and resentment...

Water is scarce in that region and refugees are forced into Syria, Jordan and Egypt....Creating havoc and problems in those countries....So all nations in the region feel the burden of the Israeli expansion.

It does not take a rocket scientist to see all those people living in Squalor and then seeing generations of radical religous zealots prepared to do anything by any means to bring about change in the region...Even if that means strapping dynamite to their chest and jumping on a bus filled with soldiers or jews or Americans...

It is horrible and almost unspeakable...But we can see clearly why it is happening.

[Sassy]

Iran releases video of British soldiers while in captivity http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=5f9_1176075119

[Amanda_931]

More land promised?  It might have to be another planet.  So we can try do the same things there as we have here, from IIRC  Old Testament days on.

[Sassy]

http://www.wethepeoplefoundation.org/UPDATE/Update2007-04-15.htm Who & What is "Israel"?  I think this sheds a little more light on what I was trying to explain earlier...

[benevolance]

A great site!

I got into a heated debate with a hardcore baptist a few months ago over Israel...He said the creation of Israel was the work of God and the fufillment of biblical prophecy....I said it was hogwash and nowhere in the Bible was it okay to rape pillage and murder other groups of people in the name of God....

I totally agree that the word Israel like the word Income have been hijacked and changed....So that we will not oppose how we are taxed and where our tax dollars go....

the frustrating part is that according to the constitution there should be a way to stop this outrage.....I am skeptical that anyone can stop the federal government from doing what they want....

we joke about the black helicopters....But it is no Joke...The USA is very much a police state in many ways and the Governments ability to crush any of us like a bug is very real....

Make too many waves and you drown :-/

[Sassy]

 Bush sanctions 'black ops' against Iran

"The CIA is giving arms-length support, supplying money and weapons, to an Iranian militant group, Jundullah, which has conducted raids into Iran from bases in Pakistan," the London Telegraph  reported yesterday.

Jundullah is a Sunni Al-Qaeda offshoot organization that was formerly headed by alleged 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. Even if you believe the official story of 9/11 to the letter, the fact that Bush has personally authorized U.S. support for this group completely dismantles the facade of the war on terror.

[glenn-k]

Many in the rest of the world refer to it as AlCIAda.  We have to create our own bogeymen so we can call them whatever we want.  So there.  It helps to keep our citizens scared so we will approve anything our gov. wants or at least sit back on our laurels and let them "protect" us.