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General => Owner-Builder Projects => Topic started by: alcowboy on October 22, 2008, 10:03:56 AM

Title: Alabama 20x30 1-1/2 Story
Post by: alcowboy on October 22, 2008, 10:03:56 AM
Hello, my name is Scott Gleaton and I live in Chambers County Alabama. I have finally settled on how I want my cottage to look. Included here are my rendetions of the floorplan, pending whether or not my view of floorplan will work based on construction methods. This is why I am posting this long before I get started building in hopes that someone will point out to me if everything I am planning will work or what changes should be made. The process of getting to this currently floorplan has been long. I actually had a small bath in the balcony but opted to remove it. I have also started looking into the use of pocket doors on the interior instead of the traditional hinged doors.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi370.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Foo150%2Fsgleaton%2FJSGleatonMainFloor.jpg&hash=5c638393ff50b7c666c74e51a23dc5a38d3fc783)
The main floor space.
(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi370.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Foo150%2Fsgleaton%2FJSGleatonMainFloorDollhouseView.jpg&hash=16c27755f49c8206fccc44bcbf62c010c33f0954)
3D of the Main Floor
(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi370.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Foo150%2Fsgleaton%2FJSGleatonBalconyfloor.jpg&hash=60ca1997f024ab3132bc4b5abd0d88f49919a3b4)
Loft area with an additional balcony over the kitchen area.
(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi370.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Foo150%2Fsgleaton%2FJSGleatonBalconyfloorDollhouseView.jpg&hash=d7ef555ada45d3666336e210cfa50ecc5911d321)
3D of the Loft/Balcony
Title: Re: Alabama 20x30 1-1/2 Story
Post by: Redoverfarm on October 22, 2008, 01:18:49 PM
Scott you give up too easily. Make the 2nd floor bath work if you really want one.  I put 1/2 in the cabin loft because it would be nice in the middle of the night rather than try to manuver a set of stairs half asleep.
Title: Re: Alabama 20x30 1-1/2 Story
Post by: glenn kangiser on October 22, 2008, 01:53:41 PM
Be sure to read PEG's info on pocket doors here for the best ways to make them work without problems.  A search should find them.
Title: Re: Alabama 20x30 1-1/2 Story
Post by: ScottA on October 22, 2008, 03:41:48 PM
I went with a pocket door too. Something you don't see every day and a real space saver. Plan looks good.
Title: Re: Alabama 20x30 1-1/2 Story
Post by: alcowboy on October 22, 2008, 05:17:57 PM
I thought about going 10' ceiling height over the kitchen, master bed and master bath with appx 3 ft knee walls up top. I think that would mean using 2x6x14 for the outside walls.  Will that give enough room for full bath w/ tub upstairs with tub being along interior wall? If I can get away without a dormer doing that would be nice, but should I need one that would be okay too but with one on opposite roof line for balance. What do you think redover? I have purchased my plans just waiting for them.
Title: Re: Alabama 20x30 1-1/2 Story
Post by: MountainDon on October 22, 2008, 05:29:47 PM
Think about how much the pocket door will be used... will it be opened and closed several times a day? If so I believe PEG's recommended brand would be worth seeking out. IIRC, the brand is Johnson, uses metal framing. If you don't go with that at least get the best wood type you can, 4 wheels per roller unit.

Those of you with sharp memories will realize I didn't go with that myself, but in my case the door will likely not be opened and closed very much at all. Probably mostly only when company is present.
Title: Re: Alabama 20x30 1-1/2 Story
Post by: Redoverfarm on October 22, 2008, 05:35:35 PM
Scott is there any particular reason for a tub and shower.  They are killers when you talk 1/2 stories.  Could a half bath suffice.  All you need is about 3 feet wide of minimal headroom.  This could be done on the sidewall by putting the toilet facing the sink on the high part of the bathroom.  The entry door could be set to that front wall mid center of those two appliances.  The area toward the slope of the roof could be built into closets or storage. 
Title: Re: Alabama 20x30 1-1/2 Story
Post by: alcowboy on October 22, 2008, 06:12:33 PM
Scott is there any particular reason for a tub and shower.  They are killers when you talk 1/2 stories.  Could a half bath suffice.  All you need is about 3 feet wide of minimal headroom.  This could be done on the sidewall by putting the toilet facing the sink on the high part of the bathroom.  The entry door could be set to that front wall mid center of those two appliances.  The area toward the slope of the roof could be built into closets or storage. 
John I like that idea! No, no reason for tub or shower except for possible non-existant company.  ;) The more I think about it the more I like the half-bath idea! What should the room dimension be?

Don I have already taken note and bookmarked Amazon for those kits. Appx $60 each - not bad.  Looked on Lowes and Home Depot - no kits. Will the have the doors?
Title: Re: Alabama 20x30 1-1/2 Story
Post by: MountainDon on October 22, 2008, 06:26:57 PM
Lowe's and HD sell the pre framed door pockets... the wood ones, not the steel. At least no steel around here at those box stores. Our Lowe's carried a couple quality levels. I bought their best; I don't recall the price with certainty... $65?   ???   That's without the door, but with all the hardware and pre-framed. All the hardware except the door pull/latch, that is.

The door is a standard 1 3/8 thick door. The lighter the better for smooth roller action/longevity.

We're using a hollow core slab and may stain it to match the cabinets.  ???  ...about $32 for the door IIRC
Title: Re: Alabama 20x30 1-1/2 Story
Post by: Redoverfarm on October 22, 2008, 06:44:34 PM
Scott I couldn't give you the exact.  I will measure mine tomarrow and let you know what I have.  Of course it would depend on the roof pitch you have to how far away from the kneewall you would have to go.  I have a 10/12 pitch and it is set on a 16' wide room. 

This is one view

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi220.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fdd161%2Fredoverfarm%2Fhightop%2F100_1957-1.jpg&hash=174fc806b08a7100c185dcc9044f6c9da810002e)

Another view

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi220.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fdd161%2Fredoverfarm%2Fhightop%2F100_1953-1.jpg&hash=ad00a4a1521486b18dcc5ddf8fd36feb80c5ef3a)
Title: Re: Alabama 20x30 1-1/2 Story
Post by: Redoverfarm on October 23, 2008, 01:24:28 PM
Scott your PM messages.
Title: Re: Alabama 20x30 1-1/2 Story
Post by: PEG688 on October 24, 2008, 06:35:32 PM

 Scott if you want to C&P my PM over to this thread feel free. As you may have noticed once you send a PM you no longer have it , so I don't have the one I sent you , I should have done the C&P before I sent it.  On the old forum we had to delete our own sent PM"s this one must just take care of that for us.  ??? Thats what Glenn told me anyway a while back.

   
Title: Re: Alabama 20x30 1-1/2 Story
Post by: glenn kangiser on October 24, 2008, 07:23:56 PM
I think you can modify your preferences to save all of the old messages if you check the right place-- I have an outbox with tons of messages in it.  I think there is still a copy of the stone tablets from the mountain in there. ::)
Title: Re: Alabama 20x30 1-1/2 Story
Post by: alcowboy on October 26, 2008, 11:59:04 AM
Hey gang! I have been doing some reading in the recommended books Mr. Raabe told me about. I have discovered something but not sure which route to take now. In reading on foundation types I have become split between treated-wood pier foundation and concrete block foundation, using 8x8x16 block.
In consideration of the types of foundation I will need to be able to a) keep costs to a minimum and b) be able to work on a very erratic schedule due to money restraints. Also, I noticed the book states 8x8 PT wood posts. Is there a problem with 6x6 posts?

If I were to go with concrete block I would like to use the rough-faced block as I think they provide much better asthetic value than do the plain block so that would need to be a consideration also.

I also need to get some help with figuring enough block to use for the 20x30 foundation at a height of appx 30"-36".  (hoping that will provide sufficient crawl space) I will be doing my foundation, whichever it may be, without grading the area since I do have money considerations.

Another thing in all of this mess of questions, how many piers would I need within the foundation for floor support?  I am sure most of this may be addressed in the plans but I have not yet received them and studying away here trying to absorb all the information I can so that I will have a very good working knowledge of what the heck I will be doing when I do get going here.    :-\   ???  [whew!]
Title: Re: Alabama 20x30 1-1/2 Story
Post by: glenn kangiser on October 26, 2008, 12:08:08 PM

John is pretty quick about getting the plans out so it shouldn't take long.
Title: Re: Alabama 20x30 1-1/2 Story
Post by: Redoverfarm on October 26, 2008, 04:46:09 PM
Scott you have threw out a mouthful.  There will be a good bit of difference between the type of foundation.  If you go with a perimeter block foundation you will need a concrete footing to lay your block on.  Unless you are very talented in masonry I would suggest this be contracted out. In regards to the # of block.  Is there a frost depth in your area?  The top of your footing needs to be at that level and there is where you start laying your block.  Figure from that height in 8" steps and that will give you how many courses of block it will take to get to the level of your floor joist.  So if you go with 48" that will be 6 courses.  Multiply 6 X the run on each of the four sides. OK you have got 100 feet total run. Divide that by 16" and that will tell you the number of blocks needed to go all the way around your foundation. Once you get that multiply by the number of courses and that is the number of blocks. If block always figure on the even 8" increments so either 32" or 40".  Confusing you more if you are set on 36" it can be done with a 4" cap block as your top course on 4 courses of regular. 

If you are trying to cut cost "split faced" block is not the way. They cost more and cost more to lay.  They have to be laid from the back side of the block rather than the front edge. If you are going to fill or grade the area then maybe regular block on the first few courses then split faced on the area to be seen(last couple course).

I think alot of your questions on the piers will be addressed in the plans.

There are also other pier options available.  Block piers & Sono tube.

Title: Re: Alabama 20x30 1-1/2 Story
Post by: alcowboy on October 26, 2008, 05:48:21 PM
The info I can find says frostline of about 10"-12" so I presume a footing 18" deep would suffice. Would a ballast trench type footing work (trench filled with something like pea gravel or crushed rock). I do not have code to abide by in my county but would like to follow code as much as possible.
Title: Re: Alabama 20x30 1-1/2 Story
Post by: Redoverfarm on October 26, 2008, 06:04:30 PM
Scott if the frost line is 10-12" then a 8-10" deep footing would suffice if the top of the footing(concrete) is 12-14" below the top of the ground. 

I would not attempt to lay block on gravel.  Too unstable and it will settle once weight (structure) is applied.
Title: Re: Alabama 20x30 1-1/2 Story
Post by: alcowboy on October 27, 2008, 03:46:49 AM
Ok thanks! IE: What I am hearing here is that it would be more feesible for me to do PT posts instead of a concrete wall due to money restraints. The reason I am saying this is the time, effort and costs involved in having to outsource for footing and laying of block.

How, the heck, did they do this in old times where I see field stone set as foundation pillars covered with a mud/plaster type mortar? I have seen tons of majorly old homes done in that fashion and they seem to hold up (not that I intend to attempt that). They did not, or so it seems, go through the trouble of footings, etc.
Title: Re: Alabama 20x30 1-1/2 Story
Post by: glenn kangiser on October 27, 2008, 05:25:50 AM
In the old days they did that because it was a natural resource, a  local building material, and everything was probably brought from the site or nearby.  A bit of settling or change here or there was not a problem to them. It was shelter.  Also a master builder there likely knew exactly what to do and how to do it so that it would be successful. 

With the advent of codes and corporate produced tested stamped and government prescribed house building methods, cronyism by the designers and inspectors - all of the good ol' boys, to be sure all get a cut of your money, sadly much of the knowledge to make it successful is lost.

It is possible with study of the old ways you could reverse design their methods as many are doing today, but if you miss something, one corner of your house may fall to the ground as your pile of rocks topples down.

What we have gained from the modern more expensive methods is consistency in successful building of foundations such as the cheaper post and pier that will likely stay together with no problems if done properly.  No chance of the pile of rocks toppling over if you don't know how the old master builder designed, plastered and possibly reinforced the piles to make them stay.  Nothing to stop you from using them as infill between parts of the modern proven system though. :)
Title: Re: Alabama 20x30 1-1/2 Story
Post by: alcowboy on October 27, 2008, 06:25:58 AM
I guess that is why I say more people need to go against the grain. Too much GOVERNMENT involvement in our daily lives. Anyway before I REALLY get on my soap box...

Thanks for the info! I am really learning a lot from the forums and all you great people who have gone before me in building your very own homes. I anticipate learning much more from everyone and hope that by spring 2009 I will be able to really start contributing to the group with a hopefully nice ground breaking for my very own home.

All I can say is WHEW! My brain is spinning like a greased wheel right now. Between learning how to build and green power etc my brain is going 90+ MPH. But that is the only way one can learn and expand their mind.

It is amazing how much you people know and how refreshing it is to know that there is still the spirit of "neighbor help neighbor" out there. We need more of it and I am afraid will be forced back to the good ole' days of yore. Especially with what is happening daily now.
Title: Re: Alabama 20x30 1-1/2 Story
Post by: alcowboy on October 27, 2008, 09:57:17 AM
I can consider myself stupid now! I have been way over thinking my foundation thing here. Yes, you are correct in that I should put a concrete footing before blocking. However, by the same token I have been over thinking the PT post-n-pier foundation too. I have been thinking I need to do this or that or entirely something else when, in fact, the simple nature of the PT pier post is to dig a hole large enough to accommodate the post  with enough room to put crushed rock (known as crusher run) or a concrete footing in the whole. DURH! Just like putting up fence posts stupid (<<ME)! I will take criticism if I am still wrong - which I am apt to be wrong anyway.  d*  ???
Title: Re: Alabama 20x30 1-1/2 Story
Post by: glenn kangiser on October 27, 2008, 06:55:08 PM
I think you are getting close. :)  Glad you enjoy the forum.  We all teach each other and the sharing of different experiences and methods can save us all time and money.
Title: Re: Alabama 20x30 1-1/2 Story
Post by: alcowboy on November 02, 2008, 09:03:27 AM
I have decided on 6x6 PT post piers. I went researching information and pricing today and have a few questions to be sure I am ok with what I am thinking before actually starting on the foundation.
Title: Re: Alabama 20x30 1-1/2 Story
Post by: glenn kangiser on November 02, 2008, 09:30:43 AM
I think the total 14 would be pushing it unless you might go with scissor trusses and there wouldn't be outward forces on the walls.  I guess you don't have much snow load there though.  John or PEG are the ones who know this stuff though.  I'm just making barely educated guesses.  Also the cut ends would work for fire blocking which you are going to need anyway.

I have seen John say to stay with the 6x6 posts in the past.  Remember that they are foundation grade treated - not the lighter stuff.

10 x 10 is not very large compared to most piers I have seen.  You may have settling problems with that small of support.  Check everything over well on the foundation page of your plans and see what all of the notes tell you.
Title: Re: Alabama 20x30 1-1/2 Story
Post by: MountainDon on November 03, 2008, 03:42:26 PM
Footings are usually 16 x 16 and deep enough to be below local frost depth. * inch thick with either a  X  or  #  rebar arrangement set in the concrete.

If the 14 footers are a dollar less than the 12 footers, I'd buy them (grade, etc. being equal) and cut them to 12 feet.
Title: Re: Alabama 20x30 1-1/2 Story
Post by: alcowboy on November 04, 2008, 06:00:36 PM
Much to learn! Much to learn! (reminiscent of Speedy delivery! Speedy delivery!)

Anyway. I am probably overthinking this but can't find my answer anywhere. Once I have my 6x6 posts in the ground and plumb, in putting the ?sill? beam (6x6 around on the top of the posts), how should this beam be attached to the posts and more specifically how do you marry the corners since the posts and the beams are 6x6?
Title: Re: Alabama 20x30 1-1/2 Story
Post by: Redoverfarm on November 04, 2008, 06:21:59 PM
Check out "Simpson Strong Tie"  fastners.  They have a variety to accomidate various configurations and sizes.
Title: Re: Alabama 20x30 1-1/2 Story
Post by: MountainDon on November 04, 2008, 06:25:05 PM
Here's one way to do it... follow the link, and scroll down a picture or two. They're not great detail pictures but should give you the idea. Those are Simpson T-brackets, one on each side in the final configuration. I also trimmed the built up beams after they were assembled on top of the posts, and after being secured to the posts. This is a 4 layer beam (4 - 2x)

http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=2335.msg60954#msg60954

You can also find Simpson post top brackets that have flanges that fit around the post and the beam. I did not use them as they are usually sized for planed finish sized lumber, where 6" becomes only 5 1/2"  example below...

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.strongtie.com%2Fgraphics%2Fcategories%2FAC-post_caps_bases.gif&hash=ec8c271c4a636c246261a015e7deaf1514a5444e)

http://www.strongtie.com/products/category_list.html
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