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General => Owner-Builder Projects => Topic started by: SouthernTier on June 04, 2018, 03:23:01 PM

Title: 22 x 28 in Western New York's Southern Tier
Post by: SouthernTier on June 04, 2018, 03:23:01 PM
Finally starting my build thread.  The more building I do, less time to type away at this computer.  But got to start sometime, because I really want to get everybody's feedback, especially from Don_P who has been so helpful so far, and NathanS who did a fantastic NY build.  And everyone else. 

As for the design of the cabin, see the design thread link in my sig.  I have made a few updates since last posting there, but you can get the general sense.

I actually started last fall, with just the foundation and septic.  I didn't want to start my thread then because I wanted to see if I made it through the winter OK.  I was quite afraid of the foundation freezing, especially with some very cold snaps we had in January (weeks around zero F), but it made it through OK.  I bought the wall cavity insulation ahead of time and laid it on the floor to be safe, not sure if that helped or not, but couldn't hurt.

Anyway, I contracted the foundation.  It was a stepped footer and way too many blocks to lay myself working weekends (although I briefly entertained the idea). 

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/bGj8XAwt7O6q2Q-fPGTq7uCsTq4vRElcQGUgOIgbo8bSewG44_IiReHE48kcTrIcRiC1zxvMmxDFXQ=w800)

I wanted to keep to code without any custom engineering required, and although I could have gone with larger blocks and more reinforcement, decided to stay with a max of 4' unbalanced fill, which meant a crawl height in the back, but full height basement in the front.  There is also the center wall to divide the two sections, and to provide a robust path for the center column to transfer its load to the foundation.  I also have a girder in the back, so provided for footers for two support posts in the back:

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/vMwBiTEaV02jRmhv4kcbbA0CKI0ec7CU92PXdh0P-rWnepUsEfGQkFaoa3ydWu2JZF7J7sloI3RKHQ=w800)

I needed to get the floor on before winter, so hear are some floor joist framing shots.  Discussion of the joist and sheeting locations here (https://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=12801.msg168078#msg168078).

Before I put the girder posts in:

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/INumvYCd0pXg3AAdQKKA37tY-FOtYhviekXqVKkPX7hGRFVc3KJu1b50DWEGpmSf4bwU1h2MlsjMVA=w800)

racing cold and darkness (was dark by the time I got all the solid blocking in:

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/B1gIsQ-zwIJtQnLz08kaTIi2zAlxTuLH_mmSq3Cjr33FdIZXx-2WumbWGjpKcMGgabPgU431NZjD0g=w800)

I got the sheeting on in the fall, but only temporarily with some screws (ran out of time).  I had to get that on to set up my winter protection scheme:

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/gB1M7NqakRjJX7o72STHYJHVi18Ed_ZSGXzSX_8T7rwghhm5SdL-4NJGOCc0-XxuWygPpDddX3PCiA=w800)

What I did was buy the steel that will eventually go on the roof.  I laid flat a bunch of sleepers (taller in the middle), laid down the steel, put a tarp over it (just to hold it down with guy wires - the steel did the water shedding), plus some concrete blocks.  Worked like a charm and kept the plywood dry.  I really would have wanted to use advantech, but decided against it due to the pesky 47-1/2" sizing.  The joists and blocking were all arranged for 48" sheeting.

Well, like I said, made it through the winter just fine, so took off the protection system, and glued and nailed the sheeting down.  That took a lot longer than I expected because I just couldn't get that damn PL400 out of the tube.  Was still pretty cold in April.  But I did finally.  I know a dancing-on-the-deck pic is de rigeur, but like most of you I'm not much of a dancer.  But I do play bass in a couple of rock bands, so I grabbed my "campfire" acoustic bass and got this (after a few tries) on the timer:

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/dmHJtT2tExuL2zd3noNFRs_uzAd259qd3vf4rHptY3fExMUugsp7SuKHFR0saSFBq89XScVV_Uk4Kg=w800)

Thanks all for the advice on the nails.  I went with the 0.113" pneumatic nails, but decreased the interval to 4" on edge, 8" on face.  The air nailer saves a lot of time, but means there is a lot of research involved in making sure my nailing patterns meet code, which are written for common and box nails.  I'll be having more questions on that as time goes on.

Started getting the walls up before the leaves came out (late spring this year).  The local lumber yard only had the 1/2" zip panels.  They say they are the same price as the 7/16", but of course that means 14% more weight for me to lift.  Oh well.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/2qZ5cHRdTMU3v5Rx3cdNTN0GQ0JR879YiGWyqLYvEAWyYnGuIutUjszXLF1jezlg6iMKkGMqsWqRPA=w800)

My excavator guy didn't finish spreading the topsoil last fall, but came out this spring.  That guy is awesome.  While he was out there, I had him dig the holes for the supports for the deck and porch.  I used those plastic spread footers even though I know from my not-to-code shed that drilling some holes would have sufficed (I have great rocky soil -glacial till - with good bearing capacity).

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/k5OYejKifTewaJd5s9wDcoM2m0tCftmPoX8rGSXACgBHJwDER5w-XaLcFX_LtLhedDPilL121vTG0w=w800)

The flags are the locations for the posts:

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/RxCeZQftv_lEd030ZNWLUHTOiNz_bio7UO_cJvwX0ja1Yv-yUYVi4fwb2IyvfzceXntRTIGBdMlPmQ=w800)

Got them in.  Was a lot of work.  Never ordered up a concrete truck before, but they came out great.  Bolts are dead-nuts on horizontally (I built a jig to hang off the walls with a plumb bob to make sure):

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/tZC9bVYvzWbQw9_oGxYtopdPWNcCar0dbUh5MTm88c18eL7sjQ5NynFH5rD-FSLxOl1Vugk6Cl1GjQ=w1200)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/bg6Eb8l78DSXW3lpmLUfeMbO5xPIK0Jt1pkgHn5cQptYk_2ddloEnJFLYUXRrqdpQE5ODpHxa0QlPA=w800)

I am doing this pretty much solo, so I got me some wall jacks.  Those things are awesome.  Also, to keep everything to close tolerance, what I did was put the two sole plates down on the long sides and made sure all the lengths and diagonals were spot on.  I screwed them down, and then for each half wall, put some beefy hinges between the floor and sole plates, so that when I tilted up the walls, they fell exactly, and I mean exactly, in place.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/ki_cmjjrwJ9k1WoD9Pvo9ei690rYdQIqXkSv5ldf7bavvKdxbMsdiTJDMaEO5y8Njf7PugoZGXwN6g=w800)

So I am more or less at this point now:

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/AFSGABybHSzg4FjxMVU4dj4Tl8Ddovch0q56-8SQ7nxC24eAy_ucnk6lk5yhFRtkGMDxkYvJZeiYDw=w800)

As I get ready for putting up the tall front gable wall (the front is a cathedral ceiling).  I ran a bunch of wind calculations, and decided (since I am overbuilding this anyway), to use a pair of 2x8 LVLs for the central studs (since I will have a ridge beam for the catherdral ceiling in front) which means 2x8 wall for the rest of the front as well.  I will also put an LVL "shelf" behind it halfway, as Don_P has recommended on some less beefy builds.  Probably overkill, but yeah, making sure this thing stands up.  Here are the front wall parts cut up and ready for assembly (minus the LVLs):

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/K_tZppVsd_h2WwBmLKq_YvIAgG4OsDBpM33NaHFO8KrsJfAl2FqvicrgUz4S62HBDld8wPvkRXQuiQ=w800)

My plan is to raise only a quarter of the wall at a time.  Actually just the two middle quarters.  That will be heavy enough.  Plus I have two helpers lined up to help me this weekend.  Then it will be off to building the loft and rear gable.

Any and all comments and suggestions.  Don't be afraid to tell me I'm screwing up.  I'd rather hear it from you all than the inspector later on!
Title: Re: 22 x 28 in Western New York's Southern Tier
Post by: NathanS on June 04, 2018, 05:07:04 PM
It looks great. That's no simple foundation, but fits the site perfectly. The crawlspace with slab could be a good place to put all the utilities. Then keep the basement as a workshop so you can get stuff done in the winter. You are in good shape to have everything dried in before it's cold again too. Looking forward to seeing more progress.
Title: Re: 22 x 28 in Western New York's Southern Tier
Post by: NathanS on June 05, 2018, 04:27:14 AM
I also just noticed the window bucks are set up for exterior foam, very nice. You'll have zero regrets there, definitely worth the added cost.

Are you planning to cover the inside of the foundation in foam board? I couldn't tell if you put foam under the slab - or if there is a vapor barrier yet.
Title: Re: 22 x 28 in Western New York's Southern Tier
Post by: SouthernTier on June 05, 2018, 04:52:01 AM
Yup, thanks for your advice about the thickness of the exterior foam.  I definitely would have screwed up without that advice.

I ran the rescheck program to meet code, and I really have a hybrid on the insulation.  By going with the full three inches of exterior foam, I only need to do that on the side walls.  The front wall will be 2x8's, but as is noted in my research, it is amazing how adding more fluffy stuff has very diminishing returns (in contrast to, for example, strength, which greatly increases with depth).  However, I meet code (through rescheck) with a combination of the exterior foam on the sides, just the fiberglass on the front and back, spray foam (yes, $$) in the ceiling, and also, yes, will add rigid foam to the inside of the basement.  Rescheck told me I had to do insulate the basement, and I was thinking of framing for fiberglass, but saw your helpful post to some other thread linking to an article about use of rigid foam so long as it was covered by drywall for fire retardant purposes.  So that is my plan for that.  The basement will be conditioned space for mold control, and yes, also for use as a work space.  I have some good friends that run an old house energy retrofitting business (https://begreenny.com/) and they really sold me on the benefits of spray foam for the ceiling despite the costs.  It will allow me to avoid having to build in an air channel between the insulation and the sheeting, which saves a step.

The reason I decided not to add the outside foam to the back and front (besides not needing it to pass rescheck) is because the overhang in the back is already small (I sized the roof to be exact multiples of 3-ft wide metal panels - including allowances for the extra inches for the last panel's overlap width and the raker parts) and in the front, I already have 8-inch walls, and I have a lot of windows and doors in the front.

I have been second guessed about the split level basement, and people have a point about it probably would have been a similar cost for a full basement.  However, if I was talked into that, I probably would have screwed up and not upgraded to 10-inch blocks as code would have required and then I would have been in trouble.  My plan is exactly as you describe it - crawl for utilities and the front as a workshop.  If this were to be a full time house rather than a recreational cabin, I might have done different, but I am happy with my decision.  Plus, being on the hillside, I may have invited a lot of water problems with a deeper basement in the back - but I'll never know.

I also have a quarter of the roof load (not to mention about a third of the floor load and some of the loft floor load) going to the middle of the foundation, so I that was actually my main impetus for that middle wall.  I didn't want all that on a single metal lally column.  That also supported (no pun intended) a decision to go with the two-level foundation.

I don't have foam under the slab, but they did put a vapor barrier over the stone before pouring the floors.

I haven't seen anyone doing those extensions to the windows and doors during framing, so I was a little worried that I was getting too creative, but I think it will work better rather than adding extensions later on.  It means my windows will be on the outside rather than in the middle  of the wall like yours.  Your approach is better from the potential leakage point of view.  But I think the at-the-outside approach will be easier to implement, and considering I am a weekend builder, I am going with the easier approaches so long as they don't compromise the performance.
Title: Re: 22 x 28 in Western New York's Southern Tier
Post by: NathanS on June 06, 2018, 03:38:07 AM
It sounds like you're on the right track to me. We hit hardpan, seasonal water table, at around 24" here... that was a big reason I did a slab. Most of our neighbors have water in their basement for part of the year... being my first time building I was very nervous about building under water.. so I skipped it. No regrets really, other than until I have a garage it would be nice to be able towork down there. And then I would have also been asking myself the same question about block thickness (8" are heavy enough), rebar reinforcement, core filling, as you. Anyway, I can completely understand your thought process.

Your plan for wall insulation sounds good to me. My two thoughts, which it sounds to me like you have already considered...

1) The surface of the sheathing in an 8" wall will be very cold without foam sheathing. More important than the interior vapor retarder, is air sealing on the interior wall. I would be careful to really seal everything up with gaskets and electrical boxes with caulking. You could consider flash+batt since the foam guys are already coming out.

2) The spray foam unventilated ceiling. I live in a colder area than you, and did not fully research hot roofs, but there is a limit to where they work.. I was under the impression where I am it is probably too cold. The surface of your roof will be warm when snow is on it... if it is above 32F you could end up with some ice damming. A lot of this concern also goes away with it not being continuously heated all winter.


Those window bucks will work great... just have to connect the window flange all the way back to the zip wall with water proofing. 6" Zip tape should take care of that. The stretch tape is really nice, you can just cut short pieces for all the corners. If you want you could also probably nail a clapboard on the head of the window buck so that it slopes outwards from the house.
Title: Re: 22 x 28 in Western New York's Southern Tier
Post by: SouthernTier on June 17, 2018, 05:31:36 PM
Sorry it has been a week and a half since you last post Nathan, but it has been busy.  My brother and son both came to town for a whole week to help me, and we got a lot done.  Haven't sat in front of a computer for a while!

First, I really appreciate your comments, and please keep them coming.  For the 8" wall, I would have to put full on 4+" foam insulation on the outside since (thanks to your previous comments in another thread), I understand that the outside foam has to be a minimum percentage of the R-value of the inside insulation.  That would be a lot of foam, which I don't want to do.  I will seal everything up well.  My understanding is that the R value of inside fiberglass really has diminishing returns and that going with an 8" wall is really not that different than a 6" wall, but I could be wrong.

As for the spray foam insulation on the ceiling, I will look into that again.  It is pretty cold here in the winter too (probably about the same as you). 

Where I left off on the build, I had the front gable materials cut and laid out.  I assembled the two middle quarters (the tallest quarters) before my two helpers arrived, and with their help, we got them up with wall jacks, with the jacks placed in the middle window holes.  Never could have done that without their help, since I knew I would run out of 16' 2x4 on the jacks before I got them 100% up.  That last bit is easy by pushing, though.  Here is my son working on joining them together after we got them up:

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/AR7RZFYW4alhvY1Xb7tZSSEjEjaBZMxhhqoFXTEhlC2j1Stm4CfSD0tbkBSnJ7GM_8ysiLvxEsPW6A=w800)

You can see the LVLs in the middle as I mentioned in an earlier post.  This is for wind load and what led me to a 2x8 wall.  Among the references I used was this wall design guide from Louisiana-Pacific:  https://lpcorp.com/media/1354/lp-solidstart-lsl-lvl-wall-framing-technical-guide-english.pdf  That guide only goes up to tributary widths of 48" but I will have more where the sliding doors and picture windows are, and with a 17'+ wall in the middle, I am right where the deflection starts to drop off, which is why I am also adding an LVL "shelf" tied into the wall behind this wall for added wind support.

I spent a huge amount of time thinking about the center column since if I ignore any tie-in effect of the loft floor (a conservative assumption but made anyway since I have two dormers which limits the tie-in effect) it could carry up to a quarter of the roof load, and part of the loft floor, for 12,000 to 14,000 pounds with the full snow load.  I figured I would certainly need at least an 8x8 at the bottom (if nothing else, to keep the force less than the compression perpendicular to the grain less than 300 psi (even though I used as little as possible wood with such an orientation).  Since this piece was so critical, I wanted to use an engineered lumber column, since 8x8 timbers aren't stocked and I just wasn't sure if I knew what to look for.  Well, it turns out the engineered lumber columns aren't stocked around here either.  While I was reading that LP guide I linked to above, it discusses the possibility of building up columns from the narrower stock LVLs.  This is something I hadn't thought of since it seemed like the advantage of LVLs was principally in the beam orientation.  However, this stock was available, and I decided to build up a 4-ply 2x8 column for the first floor and a 4-ply 2x6 column (more or less) for the second floor.  This is not a continuous column since it also supports the loft, and it was not possible (nor advised, I would think) to just bolt girders to the LVL.  That said, one of the plys goes the full length and ties everything together.

Here you can see the column, with the last loft joist sitting on the ledge between the 2x8 and 2x6 LVL stood on end.  The girder is a 2-ply 2x8 LVL - even though the wall under this girder is a load bearing wall, it has three doors going right up almost to the girder, so you could think of that as the header for those doors.  That is perhaps overkill.  The four plies were fastened together with 6-3/4 Simpson Strong Drive structural screws in accordance with their fastening schedule.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/kE4e39veK6WdrWJ-VQ8YK4DcTBMcw56Zqjkvjizk6eTUoJnWTozHwbHx-KMo57Y8JDLg8uclt55-Ow=w800)

So about those loft joists.  I posted this: https://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=12801.msg184944#msg184944 a couple of years ago about how for various reasons I wanted to have 4x6 joists, even though this means I may have a somewhat flexy loft floor (but it meets strength, shear, and deflection critieria a 19.2" spacing) - note that post from 2+ years ago says 24" but I shrunk it down to 19.2".  I had a huge tree cut down and had it milled into such material because you can't by non-treated wood that size.  I had the joists drying in a garage (stickered) and finally pulled them out.  Unfortunately, some were warped and I had to go with double 2x6's in for the section over the bathroom (which wasn't going to be exposed anyway).  It was great to finally cut them to size and install them.  I am going to eventually put T&G 2x6 in for the loft floor, but these pics with some wood just laying on them gives you an idea of what they will look like:

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/7hFsTozWYkQcyTRLQ_NvJLveB-h7Oyp7TGGY_NkSzI3-6LrR5EpqP5VfxSvVg7XIr64kfGCTTl5nAQ=w800)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/H2dU1kNwMf4V25zD67cjzFc6-zy9x8yY7UBPAyiVzld6Mu63N-Z8m7L63l5kwtpRYDPPldB4ukHpEg=w800)

As you can see we did some interior framing.  Overall, I was really lucky to have perfect weather for when my family crew was here, but we did have rain one day, so we worked on that interior framing and some other parts cutting under tarps that day.

My brother left a day early but I wanted to take advantage of the extra hands of my son on the last day, and we managed to get all the sheathing up on the three accessible walls (the front will have to wait for the deck), except the top strip which I want to hold off until I do the rafters.  I didn't get all the blocking in for full nailing, but can do that later - I wanted to take advantage of his hands and muscles while I could.  Here's where we left it (there are more windows in the back, just not cut out yet):

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/4gBOYplEmMZ8xtGLdnCO4UaNQgFgTFCLgCSwqwqIZ9AQeF04Z37-Kvnns5rMSMwIkS9gD6UYhwrEhw=w800)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_A0wvth-wbvtj-pEFFX578eQne4tpzdYvHO6Y1cD-WZ5CC0XhfZPSLfLx5rxNNePhhUbBP1GGASSaA=w800)

Here's a shot from the scaffolding looking towards the loft.  That is all the wood I had left, and aside from a couple of 2x10's (actually left over from last fall's floor joists) and perhaps a few 2x8's (will have to see once I get the front wall blocking in), I ordered pretty much right on.  The 8-ft 2x4's on the right are for more interior walls.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/7NJtmd7Yy05PlgZBplQVfTOrBOqILLP32_CPopZCA5NuJlHCfl9aLK3tOjsUjvCEQ7WN-wsfqGD1Kg=w800)

Here's a shot from the same location looking back where the wood pile was.  That was filled 4' tall a few weeks ago.  Still have the sheeting for the front there, however (the rough cut boards are from my milling operation that I had used to hold down the tarp).  When that arrived I was sure I ordered too much.  I guess I didn't!

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/q5DqUEnuImcNqihLw6c43H3OYlJFJWYgiUs_Q0WFAwcIHQ-Ouw3UK_UH5V2_IWndHF5rfa7XeotEKQ=w800)

All-in-all, a fantastic week with family working hard, cooking over the fire, haveing a great time and getting lots accomplished.  Next up is the ridge beam and the rafters!

Title: Re: 22 x 28 in Western New York's Southern Tier
Post by: Rys on June 18, 2018, 03:42:36 AM
Love seeing all your progress! It's really coming together nicely.
Title: Re: 22 x 28 in Western New York's Southern Tier
Post by: Beavers on June 18, 2018, 06:26:49 AM
Those loft joists look really cool  [cool]
Title: Re: 22 x 28 in Western New York's Southern Tier
Post by: seedspreader on June 18, 2018, 05:21:07 PM
Nice work! I'm in NWPA (Warren County).  Glad to see a "local" build!
Title: Re: 22 x 28 in Western New York's Southern Tier
Post by: SouthernTier on June 19, 2018, 06:17:32 AM

2) The spray foam unventilated ceiling. I live in a colder area than you, and did not fully research hot roofs, but there is a limit to where they work.. I was under the impression where I am it is probably too cold. The surface of your roof will be warm when snow is on it... if it is above 32F you could end up with some ice damming. A lot of this concern also goes away with it not being continuously heated all winter.


Thanks for the kind words everyone.  I accept negative comments, too, if anyone sees anything gone awry.  Better to fix it now.

As for the spray foam, I do have sufficient rather depth to do both the foam and put in air channels.  Does anyone know enough about spray foam (closed cell) to know if it can be applied after installation of air channels?  Can this be done or does the spray find its way into the channels?  I haven't talked to any foam insulation contractors yet.  If that is possible, it would be the best of both worlds with a cold roof and high-R insulation, just the extra cost and work of installing the channels and venting the eaves and peak.
Title: Re: 22 x 28 in Western New York's Southern Tier
Post by: NathanS on June 20, 2018, 03:14:10 AM
You are really moving fast. Those 4x6 joists look great.


https://buildingscience.com/documents/insights/bsi-046-dam-ice-dam
 (https://buildingscience.com/documents/insights/bsi-046-dam-ice-dam)

This is a good article about ice damming in cold snowwy climates. He says once you get to 50 lb snow load you really shouldn't be doing an unventilated roof. One of the examples is an R-50 roof in Vermont with ice damming... very similar to here.

The simple calculation would be snow having an R value of 1. On a 30 degree day with 12" of snow on the roof, total assembly is R-62. If it's 70F inside, the roof deck is going to be around (70-30)*12/62+30 = 38F, so ice dams will occur.

I don't see anything wrong with vent channels, pre-made or making them out of foam.. the main thing is making sure cold air gets in at the bottom and out at the top.

Practically all the roofs around here have ice damming in the winter. I'd be sick to my stomach to see that, once the house is done that would be such an awful, expensive, thing to try to fix. I have listened to a lot of people talk about how you can basically do whatever you want, and then peel n stick the whole roof... tell that to my neighbors whose shingles are starting to peel up on a 5 year old roof.
Title: Re: 22 x 28 in Western New York's Southern Tier
Post by: SouthernTier on June 24, 2018, 09:41:58 AM
Thanks Nathan.  This cabin is going to be so much better than it otherwise would be thanks to yours and others' advice.  I will either put in the styrofoam channels, or else build them out of 1x2's and 1/4" plywood.  I'd trust the wood channels to be better at keeping the foam out of the channel, but will have to compare costs.  Probably the same amount of work either way.

As for coming along fast, well, that is when I take a whole week off from work and have two helpers there full time makes things go fast.  But that isn't going to happen again, at least for a while.  Got swamped back at work after a week away, and this weekend is a washout.  The good news is that my tarp system works well now that I have a temp ridge beam up there.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/67ihiki3pmMfnNwID4tocakXPPFc2VNBKbSY9R95ODgxyKxIOejTXPL6y30iDJX6N5tLRAwUlo9-3A=w800)

I was there yesterday and there was a thunderstorm of biblical proportions, and except for some water coming in from the front wall (just has my old ripped tarp hanging in front of it), things were bone dry inside.  Had to drape that blue tarp over the wall to keep out water from the top sheeting-less strip, but then things were great.

Since this tarp situation seems to be working out, I am going to focus on getting the side porch built since the rafters continue out over that.  That way when I put the rafters on, I can to the whole thing at once.

Soliciting more advice:

I need to decide on what sheathing to use on roof.  The questions I need to decide on are (1) thickness and (2) material.

Thickness:  I don't know how much help I will be getting for getting the roof sheathing up there.  I plan on hauling the sheathing up to the loft, and then sending out the "holes" where the dormers are going (except of course, for the dormers' sheets themselves).  Still, it will be a heavy lift, litterally.  Table R503.2.1.1(1) seems to indicate I could go with 1/2-inch sheathing, even without edge support with my 24" spacing, and I may have some 1/2-inch panels left over from the wall sheathing.  Nathan, I know you put 5/8" on even with 16" spacing, so I suspect the advice is go with 5/8".

Material:  I am glad I am going with the zip system for the walls as I can't imagine trying to get tyvek up there by myself.  For the roof, I am not sure.  The advantage of going with zip for the roof is that it doesn't need the tar paper, but even if I go with the vents, I think at least one row of adhesive barrier would probably be needed.  Does the zip system really obviate the need for tar paper? 

Note, I am probably going to contract out the actual installation of the steel roof, mainly for safety concerns, and secondarily to make sure it is done right (although I have had zero problems with my shed's roof, but it was much smaller).  There will probably be a delay between when I get the sheathing on and when the roofer shows up to install the roof.  With this delay maybe it makes more sense to use the zip since I don't plan on putting the tar paper on myself, again due to safety concerns.

If I don't go with zip, would plywood be a better choice than OSB if there is an interval between the sheathing and the roofing?

Does the T&G zip cause those sheets to be 47.5" like the advantech flooring?  That could be a probably with my system designed for multiples of 4'

Thanks in advance for any and all suggestions.
Title: Re: 22 x 28 in Western New York's Southern Tier
Post by: NathanS on June 25, 2018, 07:33:09 AM


Thickness:  I don't know how much help I will be getting for getting the roof sheathing up there.  I plan on hauling the sheathing up to the loft, and then sending out the "holes" where the dormers are going (except of course, for the dormers' sheets themselves).  Still, it will be a heavy lift, litterally.  Table R503.2.1.1(1) seems to indicate I could go with 1/2-inch sheathing, even without edge support with my 24" spacing, and I may have some 1/2-inch panels left over from the wall sheathing.  Nathan, I know you put 5/8" on even with 16" spacing, so I suspect the advice is go with 5/8".

Getting the sheathing up there was an awful job. I used C clamps as handles. I put all the sheathing on alone, instead of dormers I had one rafter bay spaced at 24" for the chimney. Slid it out with C clamps for handles, and also clamped stop blocks on the fascia so that the first course would automatically slide into position. I nailed in as much as I could from within the attic, then climbed out on top to finish it off. The T&G likely did shrink the 48" to 47.5", if that's an issue. Without T&G I think you will need to fiddle with H clips.. I really liked that for such an awkward one person job it was one less thing to worry about.

Nothing wrong with going with the lightest stuff that is rated for 24" rafters.

I found the sheathing to be a lot more work, and similarly dangerous, to installing the metal.

Quote
Material:  I am glad I am going with the zip system for the walls as I can't imagine trying to get tyvek up there by myself.  For the roof, I am not sure.  The advantage of going with zip for the roof is that it doesn't need the tar paper, but even if I go with the vents, I think at least one row of adhesive barrier would probably be needed.  Does the zip system really obviate the need for tar paper? 


I put on ice and water shield, in retrospect it was unnecessary. In my bulk order I had included it (had it on hand, and figured why not) because I thought the code required it, but I'm pretty certain it's only required for shingles.

The ice and water shield was pretty grippy, but nothing is as easy to walk on as zip - a huge advantage. Also really easy to use the tape. And if you don't get the steel on this year, you can feel confident that tape can handle a NY winter... that is not true of any other waterproofing that I know of.

If you were installing an unvented roof, I would probably say to use ice and water shield. Ice damming could put the nail holes under hydrostatic pressure which might actually leak.

Quote
Note, I am probably going to contract out the actual installation of the steel roof, mainly for safety concerns, and secondarily to make sure it is done right (although I have had zero problems with my shed's roof, but it was much smaller).  There will probably be a delay between when I get the sheathing on and when the roofer shows up to install the roof.  With this delay maybe it makes more sense to use the zip since I don't plan on putting the tar paper on myself, again due to safety concerns.

If I don't go with zip, would plywood be a better choice than OSB if there is an interval between the sheathing and the roofing?

Does the T&G zip cause those sheets to be 47.5" like the advantech flooring?  That could be a probably with my system designed for multiples of 4'

Thanks in advance for any and all suggestions.

I thought Don P said that plywood edges swell faster than OSB now. I don't think that's an issue with steel roofing though. If you are going to have roofers do the steel, consider how much you are saving buy doing the sheathing yourself. It might not be worth it.

One last thought, if you vent using furring strips on top the roof, you essentially are building a lattice, giant ladder, to crawl around on. What Mike 870 did except without the insulation. If you go that route, that would be pretty safe/comfortable in my opinion.

Always wear a harness and make sure the slack is short enough that if you fall you will not drop over the eave.
Title: Re: 22 x 28 in Western New York's Southern Tier
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on June 25, 2018, 08:31:41 AM
I finally got the plywood sheathing on my roof this spring.  Like yours it has a 12:12 pitch and a loft.  I went with 1/2" plywood (technically 15/32") and had some help.  For my project I would have been better off with Advantech, the plywood has been exposed to the weather much longer than I wanted.  But it's holding up fine.  I may have saved a few bucks going with OSB but the sheets are heavier.  I built a poor-boy scaffold to facilitate the work and reduce potential falls.  I also agree 100% on wearing a harness.

(https://i.imgur.com/jOlQpSc.jpg)
Title: Re: 22 x 28 in Western New York's Southern Tier
Post by: Mike 870 on June 25, 2018, 01:52:58 PM
I don't have too much to add here.

I did not find installing the metal roof all that difficult, just time consuming.  I would say if you hire it out, do so because you are able to make good use of your time doing other tasks, not because it's an overly difficult job. One helper is needed to help get the sheets up on the roof.

If you decide to do it yourself, screw/nail on plenty of 2x4's to walk on in smaller sections that you can then remove as you work your way across your roof installing the metal. Be careful, take your time.  And yea wear a harness, I should have done that.  I have a video on my metal roof install on my build thread.  My roof is also 12/12 but I have all that gridwork to stand on. 
Title: Re: 22 x 28 in Western New York's Southern Tier
Post by: SouthernTier on June 25, 2018, 05:50:31 PM
Getting the sheathing up there was an awful job. I used C clamps as handles. I put all the sheathing on alone, instead of dormers I had one rafter bay spaced at 24" for the chimney. Slid it out with C clamps for handles, and also clamped stop blocks on the fascia so that the first course would automatically slide into position. I nailed in as much as I could from within the attic, then climbed out on top to finish it off. The T&G likely did shrink the 48" to 47.5", if that's an issue. Without T&G I think you will need to fiddle with H clips.. I really liked that for such an awkward one person job it was one less thing to worry about.

Nothing wrong with going with the lightest stuff that is rated for 24" rafters.

I found the sheathing to be a lot more work, and similarly dangerous, to installing the metal.

Good advice.  I think that is some of what that "building alone" book says, although I still haven't got my hands on my own copy of that.  Your comment about the roof sheathing vs. the steel is similar to Mike 870's.  I plan on putting the sheathing on myself since as soon as I remove those tarps, I plan on getting rafters and sheathing in as quickly as possible.  It is not always possible to have outside contractors work "on demand" (unless you want to pay extra).  There would then be a delay (but not over the winter) before I get someone to put the metal on.  I always figured the metal would be harder because with the sheathing you can at least nail rows of 2x4's to it for support, but you can't do that when laying down a 16'-long piece of metal.  Also, there is a little more room for margins of error with sizing and placement with the sheathing compared to the metal.  Like I said, I did the metal (8' pieces) on my shed (8/12 pitch), and it turned out great, but I felt that was the limit of what I could do effectively.

I put on ice and water shield, in retrospect it was unnecessary. In my bulk order I had included it (had it on hand, and figured why not) because I thought the code required it, but I'm pretty certain it's only required for shingles.

The ice and water shield was pretty grippy, but nothing is as easy to walk on as zip - a huge advantage. Also really easy to use the tape. And if you don't get the steel on this year, you can feel confident that tape can handle a NY winter... that is not true of any other waterproofing that I know of.

If you were installing an unvented roof, I would probably say to use ice and water shield. Ice damming could put the nail holes under hydrostatic pressure which might actually leak.

Good advice.  I will probably go with the zip panels (still scratching my head on the thickness) and skip the ice shield with the possible exception of the change in pitch going from the roof (actually about 10.5 on 12) to the porch (4/12) where there may be some snow buildup and there is a break in the metal

One last thought, if you vent using furring strips on top the roof, you essentially are building a lattice, giant ladder, to crawl around on. What Mike 870 did except without the insulation. If you go that route, that would be pretty safe/comfortable in my opinion.

Always wear a harness and make sure the slack is short enough that if you fall you will not drop over the eave.

The vents will be below the deck, so Mike 870's technique wouldn't apply.  I have a harness lined up to borrow and a good rope.  I used to do some rock climbing back in my younger days so I am used to roping up.  I just to make sure I never get lazy and leave too much slack.  And I won't.  On a similar note, I promised myself never to make a saw cut or blow in some nails without my safety glasses.  Sometimes I can't remember where I put them down and was tempted to say "just once" but then remind myself that "just once" is all it takes.  Same will go for the harness and the rope length.
Title: Re: 22 x 28 in Western New York's Southern Tier
Post by: Don_P on June 25, 2018, 06:06:39 PM
I use 5/8 to give the roofing fasteners more to bite into and osb, it's flatter and I've had fewer problems with it than ply. As osb has gotten better in quality it seems the quality of ply has gone down. The titanium or Grace synthetic "tarpaper" is good stuff, I've had it exposed for as much as 6 months with no problems. If I don't have help I've leaned a 2x 10 or better up against the loft from the main floor and build a "shelf" on it up at about 4'. Screw that "mule" to the loft. Lift the sheets up onto the shelf 4 or 5 at a time then go up and pull them up to the loft. I'll stand them up between rafters poking out. With one foot on a toeboard and one on a rafter you can bend down low and grab a sheet, pull it up out of the hole swing the tip down till the lower end clears the rafters, pivot and plop it onto the rafters. Slide it along them until over your spot ant slide it down into the clips, I'll usually angle a bit and work the clips in one at a time as I slide the sheet down into place. Standing seam is no clips if you go that route. A ridge hook and ladder is the way to install metal, Just slide it along the ridge beside a sheet at a time. I wrap the hook in an old T shirt and do the same to the ladder near the bottom and work the last sheet on top of the metal.
Title: Re: 22 x 28 in Western New York's Southern Tier
Post by: SouthernTier on June 29, 2018, 09:27:00 AM
Thanks Don and Nathan.  Those descriptions sound like a great approach to getting the sheets up there, and will try that.  Hopefully I can get some help.

I think I will go with the 5/8", especially with the 24" spacing, probably T&G if the lumber yard has it.  I will probably put ice shield just at the edge of the non-porch side and at the slope break on the porch side.

Does anyone have any suggestions for what vent product to use at the peak?  Searching, I saw a product called Coravent (http://www.cor-a-vent.com/) but I am sure there are others.

While I still wait for my ridge beam, I am going to start working on the porch, since the porch rafters go out over that.  Supposed to be 90s all weekend, so not ideal for working, but I knew that would be coming.

Another question: Recommendations for flashing material for porch and deck boards?  I am calling the covered (and screened in) deck the "porch", and the open deck the "deck" but both will be built in accordance with code requirements for decks, and as summarized here (http://www.awc.org/pdf/codes-standards/publications/dca/AWC-DCA62012-DeckGuide-1405.pdf).  Apparently aluminum isn't recommended with treated wood due to the galvanic reaction.  Or at least with some treated wood.  The lumber yard quote says the treated wood is "MCAG TREATED #2 YP".  Can I use some sort of tape for the flashing, as I can do for windows?

Actually, that reminds me of another question.  Nathan, you suggested I use the 6" zip tape between the sheathing and the extended window framing.  Is this the product you were referring to: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Huber-6-in-x-75-ft-ZIP-System-Valley-Window-Door-Flashing-Tape-5017124/206605060  ??
Title: Re: 22 x 28 in Western New York's Southern Tier
Post by: NathanS on June 29, 2018, 11:38:20 AM
The two vents I saw stocked in stores were either plastic or a thin foam material. I used the plastic, and was happy with how it installed. The foam stuff seemed really fragile. buildingscience shows diagrams of using rigid foam to make spacers and then a sheet to form the vent channel. I am not sure it's worth the extra work and cost.

On my balcony I glued tar paper in between the pressure treated sleepers and flashing. For some reason I thought galvanized steel couldn't touch PT, but aluminum was OK. I am not sure if I should have done that or not.  ;D

That is the tape I was talking about. I also mentioned the stretch tape - it is worth the expense and special order. Just cut small pieces for all inside and outside corners. I would also think about flashing the entire inside of the buck as well - definitely the sill and jambs.
Title: Re: 22 x 28 in Western New York's Southern Tier
Post by: Don_P on June 29, 2018, 01:49:34 PM
Aluminum and treated is the no-no. I've not seen galvanized flashing with much zinc protecting the steel so don't care for that. I tried the tarpaper barrier till an engineering professor mentioned that I was probably just making a damp galvanic layer similar to a battery... so I've gone to vinyl, not loving it as it sure isn't crisp and clean bends but it is the state of my art at the moment. Copper would be the best but expensive.

 Late for this but I put a treated rim joist wherever there will be a porch or deck ledger just in case water gets behind the flashing. There is a crew working on my clients home right now, friends of Redover's in fact. They had a rough week. They were replacing a rotting cedar deck. There was no flashing at the deck ledger and it rotted the rim joist, subfloor, sole plate of the wall and the joist ends, major screw up! I've been involved in another job like that, very disheartening, thousands can turn into many thousands in a couple of hours when you are tearing off the old deck and reveal the damage.
Title: Re: 22 x 28 in Western New York's Southern Tier
Post by: SouthernTier on June 30, 2018, 06:08:15 AM
Thanks Don.  Wasn't familiar with the vinyl flashing.  Sure enough, that's what is available:  https://www.lowes.com/pd/Union-Corrugating-10-in-x-50-ft-Vinyl-Roll-Flashing/3359584  Something like that, right?

I recall this earlier post of yours (don't know how I would have gotten this cabin built without your advice!): https://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=14783.msg192973#msg192973  which shows your recommended flashing scheme, showing flashing between the ledger and the rim joist (yes, too late to put a PT rim joist in).  In that post, you say the flashing between these two boards "can be a rubber membrane, metal, tarpaper at min."  I assume I could also put the vinyl there, too?

Nathan:  Thanks for the heads up on the zip tape.  Looks like this is the 6-inch stuff I should get:  https://www.homedepot.com/p/Huber-6-in-x-75-ft-ZIP-System-Liner-Stretch-Flashing-Tape-5017123/206605061 or maybe one of each.
Title: Re: 22 x 28 in Western New York's Southern Tier
Post by: Don_P on July 01, 2018, 04:07:58 AM
Yup, that's the vinyl. If you have access to a metal brake it will brake just not a crisp as metal. I've used it in both places noted on that drawing and have also used ice and water shield on the lower 3' of wall as the flash and the vinyl just for the counterflash over the ledger. The last house I ran treated 1/2" ply sheathing up 2' then osb from there on up.
Title: Re: 22 x 28 in Western New York's Southern Tier
Post by: SouthernTier on July 08, 2018, 04:25:08 PM
Thanks again for all the help.  Got most of the "porch" up this week, so ready for the rafters once I get the ridge beam.  Pics first:

Here is using the laser level that Nathan recommended.  Great recommendation!  Using the minivan as a tripod.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/q4JX38EP3U3MQdBAaZtZ1Z0vMgB68WGYscxXS4fjC2pjw2yEIy1teBZWZ7A-5OubHp7se74Ef0TUTA=w800)

Really worked well to get the wood level considering I was working with sloping ground.

Hopefully not any fatal flaws in this, but I came up with a design that staggered the seams using treated 2x6s to build up the columns as a way to avoid having one 6x6, then a platform, then another post, etc.  Seemed to me that introduced a lot of hinge points.  A draw back of built up posts is rot between the boards so I applied a stain to those surfaces before building them up.  I think it came out really well.  The far ends of the joists are supported by a combination of a 2x6 and 2x8, although these are not nailed together.  They sit on the 2x6 and are end-nailed to the 2x8.  Each span is only 4 feet (this is because this will be screened in and I spaced the columns for common widths of screen materiaL) so this combination should be sufficient.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/f-VM3UFLltNCNtIl7PonGczCaGp0OD_GF2Hk3qzWTHDwKuiJSX74EKCM_yA2Q48TJiiE2H_7YSKnug=w800)

Today I finished the upper portions, putting 4x4s on the small shelf and spanning the top with 4x6's

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/m1NQl4MNLZUngi2joe4HURH6RWFnWXA_o_aHuqd32NNvrQgm54MP6eqPdfzeIgD6MQyPLycoUsKRHQ=w800)

In the first picture, you can see the flashing I put behind the ledger board.  I used this  (https://www.lowes.com/pd/TITE-SEAL-Self-Adhesive-Waterproof-9-in-x-33-ft-Rubberized-Asphalt-Roll-Flashing/3055549)rubbery material, two courses since it was only 9" wide.  Haven't applied the vinyl flashing yet as I am holding off putting down the floor boards for now.  I don't have access to a metal brake, so not sure how I am going to bend that and have it stay while I apply it, but will figure something out.
Title: Re: 22 x 28 in Western New York's Southern Tier
Post by: SouthernTier on July 11, 2018, 10:54:25 AM
Although getting the ridge beam is the current rate limiting step in me getting and installing the roofing material, I actually still haven't decided on the sheathing yet.  I will go with the zip system, but I still am grappling with the thickness question.  I like Don's suggestion about having more bite for the nails with the 5/8", but not sure if that is as important with a metal roof compared to asphalt shingles.

Doing some research, it appears that the 1/2" is truly sufficient, if not "best" for my application.  It is APA span rated 32/16, and according to this Huber document http://www.fransyl.com/DATA/PRODUIT/PDF_en/1034_1_en~v~ZIP_System_Roof_Support_Informations.pdf it can handle up to 75 psf at an L/240 deflection, although any deflection is just into my air channel.

Additionally, Huber says that the H-clips are not required for the 1/2" panels, according this document: http://zipsystem.com/assets/user/library/Tech_Tip_-_Do_I_Need_H-Clips.pdf   That doc also has loading info and uses an L/180 deflection critierion, giving a maximum loading of 93 psf.

So right now, I am thinking of going with the half-inch. 
Title: Re: 22 x 28 in Western New York's Southern Tier
Post by: SouthernTier on July 16, 2018, 03:12:53 PM
Well, I got to the lumberyard, and at the last second, I said "self, don't skimp on anything", so I went with the 5/8".  Of course, it wasn't so much about skimping as it was about hauling more mass up to the roof.  But I will get it up there somehow (probably Don_P's method).

So all the roof framing material is ordered.  It will be a relief when that is up there.  Then the exterior foam and windows (close to placing that order, probably a combo of 100 and 200 series Andersens) and I will be dried in.

On to the next question.  I will definitely be incorporating the air channel into the roof.  Below that I am going with closed cell foam.  I originally spec'ed (and had my plans stamped with) 2x12 rafters in anticipation of fiberglass fluffy stuff, but now I will be doing the close cell after doing all the permutations of reschek to get my cabin to pass.

Because of the expense, I was thinking (because I have the rafter depth), to go with the last approach outlined in this article:  http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/musings/how-build-insulated-cathedral-ceiling  except also adding in the air channel. The image from that article I am referring to is this one:

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-iIBLIidNzH4/W00zg_KkKXI/AAAAAAAAJIY/-Q-fgvevgRMfReDoKMYroEWj5lCfZ6J8ACL0BGAYYCw/h232/Flash-and-batt.jpg) (Again, but with the air channel above)

I was talking to a friend whose business is old building retrofitting for energy efficiency (and actually used to do closed cell foam themselves before deciding to sub that out) that realistically, despite what the code says, there is diminishing returns with any insulation depth (sort of the opposite of wood strength which disproportionately increases with depth).  I could save a lot of money by limiting the closed cell to about 4" and then adding in fluffy stuff made for 2x6 walls. 

Thoughts?  Is that article on point?
Title: Re: 22 x 28 in Western New York's Southern Tier
Post by: Don_P on July 16, 2018, 05:36:26 PM
I didn't read the entire article but I did get to the point I was looking for, a failure a friend had. We call that approach flash and batt. The insulation contractor was hired to do both the sprayfoam and the batt insulation. He had said he would spray one day and batt the next. My friend came to work the next day and said the insulation guys had done it all in one day. This didn't allow him to check their foam work. Then we made the fatal mistake. We assumed they had done a proper job and installed the T&G ceiling that weekend. Several weeks later they moved in and trouble began. Water drops began appearing at the lower edge of the T&G. He removed a couple of the lower boards and the batts were wet. The ceiling had to come down, the batts and then check the foam. Yup, they had skimped horribly and then quickly covered their work. The inside face of the foam was below dew point and it condensed moisture then dripped through the batts. It took some arm twisting to get the insulation contractor to do the right thing, sort of. He came back out and resprayed the ceiling. We insisted David take the day off and babysit them. Sure enough in private conversation his employee had been given different instructions than what was agreed upon and didn't know better, he did after that although they are no longer in business, small towns are not the place to do that. So yes I do agree with that part of the article, pay attention to your zone and be there, absolutely be there, with your straightend coathanger with tape at the agreed upon depth and thump their work often with it. If you can't afford to take a day off to be there I'd say you can't afford to risk it, go all foam.

I think that was a rant  :D
Title: Re: 22 x 28 in Western New York's Southern Tier
Post by: NathanS on July 16, 2018, 05:38:38 PM
I am not too familiar with rescheck, I wound up doing everything in excel. What an impact air tightness has... not to mention the importance of thermal bridging from studs and windows. U-factor is a better measure but I guess builders don't like decimals.

I would think the assembly R-value of the flash+batt would be around 40, just batt around 35, and batt+2" of XPS 45 - cheaper than flash+batt but more work and time. The flash+batt would also be air tight. Ceiling air tightness is critical because of buoyant hot air.


I have not had a good experience with Andersen windows. I have at least one that leaks some how, and when I pulled it to figure out what was going on, I leaned it upside down and water poured out of the miter joints. One of the few benefits of how slowly I've been building is that I've gotten to stair at rough sills for close to 2 years now.
Title: Re: 22 x 28 in Western New York's Southern Tier
Post by: NathanS on July 16, 2018, 05:42:06 PM
Don also makes a good point, if the foam is going to be the condensing surface (relying on it for your air barrier) keep a close eye on the spray foamers. 4" of foam should be adequate.
Title: Re: 22 x 28 in Western New York's Southern Tier
Post by: SouthernTier on July 17, 2018, 08:56:54 AM
So yes I do agree with that part of the article, pay attention to your zone and be there, absolutely be there, with your straightend coathanger with tape at the agreed upon depth and thump their work often with it. If you can't afford to take a day off to be there I'd say you can't afford to risk it, go all foam.

I think that was a rant  :D
Thanks.  I would definitely take the day off and be there when they do it. 

The problem with being an owner-builder contracting out part of the work is the contractors know you won't be a repeat customer.  But for this work, I would use a contractor that does regular work for this company: https://begreenny.com/  I know both owners well (ironically through completely different circumstances) and would let the contractor know that's how he got picked, so hopefully he would have a good incentive to it right.  But, as they say, trust but verify. 
Title: Re: 22 x 28 in Western New York's Southern Tier
Post by: SouthernTier on July 17, 2018, 09:11:48 AM
I am not too familiar with rescheck, I wound up doing everything in excel. What an impact air tightness has... not to mention the importance of thermal bridging from studs and windows. U-factor is a better measure but I guess builders don't like decimals.

I am pretty sure that rescheck is a U-factor calculation.  It more or less does the calculation for you, without excel.  You enter in the dimensions and types of the surfaces/windows, the U-values of the insulation and the doors/windows, and whether you have continuous coverage (e.g. with external XPS, etc.) to negate thermal bridging.  According to this link (https://www.energycodes.gov/adoption/states/new-york) passing in rescheck allows you to not follow prescriptive insulation requirements in NYS.  Although of course you would still want to follow prescriptive elements where they relate to condensation.


I would think the assembly R-value of the flash+batt would be around 40, just batt around 35, and batt+2" of XPS 45 - cheaper than flash+batt but more work and time. The flash+batt would also be air tight. Ceiling air tightness is critical because of buoyant hot air.

I wouldn't be able to fit R-35 of batt into the 2x12 rafters, especially with the air channel, which is why I looked at the closed cell foam.   I calculated that the closed cell foam would be about $16.15 per "R" for 100 SF (installed), whereas the batts are $2.50 - $3.50 per "R" for 100 SF (I would install these myself).  So opportunity for substantial savings.  Since it would be drying to the interior, would that mean I would use unfaced batts?

I have not had a good experience with Andersen windows. I have at least one that leaks some how, and when I pulled it to figure out what was going on, I leaned it upside down and water poured out of the miter joints. One of the few benefits of how slowly I've been building is that I've gotten to stair at rough sills for close to 2 years now.

Deciding on the windows has taken up way too much time, and you never know what you will get.  I was comparing Pella, but it just seems like Andersen had more exactly what I was looking for.  On line reviews are worthless since many of the complaints you read are probably due to poor installation.  I doubt that was the problem with yours looking at your build.
Title: Re: 22 x 28 in Western New York's Southern Tier
Post by: NathanS on July 17, 2018, 10:22:33 AM
I had the exact same experience with windows, I just got sick of it. At one point I remember reading about hardware breaking within a few months on triple pane ($$$$) windows and just ran out of steam. You are spot on with reviews too, it is so hard to tell what is real anymore... the layers of marketing on the internet is something else.

The most noticeable issue with the windows is they have a ton of side to side play - probably 3/8-1/2". It is so bad that on some of the windows the springs will come loose when you open them. Also, the smaller windows will sag crooked when opened. The material the 100s are made from is rigid and not something that can be shimmed out.

Anyway, I am trying to stop this from turning into a full blown rant but believe me, I have a long list of what is wrong with the windows, and that company, that I wouldn't wish on anyone spending thousands of dollars.

One of my neighbors down the road is a retired log home builder and carpenter. After I told him all the problems I've had, he told me he had quality issues with them too, and that Marvin makes a better product. Might be worth looking at those, I wish someone told me that before I bought mine.

I don't think the kraft facing would hurt anything as it still allows a lot of water vapor to pass through it. You could also then staple the paper to the rafters so that it stays up, otherwise you have to use those long metal pin things to hold them up. I have no regrets using rock wool - that would stay up by friction alone.

Title: Re: 22 x 28 in Western New York's Southern Tier
Post by: SouthernTier on July 17, 2018, 10:41:31 AM
Do you have the 100s or the 200s?  For the double hungs, I was planning on the 200s.  Same with the slider door.
Title: Re: 22 x 28 in Western New York's Southern Tier
Post by: NathanS on July 17, 2018, 10:55:56 AM
100s, which are single hung.

For doors I just bought the in-stock stuff at Lowes, which the quality seems fine for what they are. I think the 100 sliders were like $1100 a piece. Eep.

I was more upset when this all first happened because even though they are 'budget' windows, $5800 was still a lot of money. I think they will do fine for 10 years or so. I did install all the trim and around the windows with screws and made everything easily removable. Some day I'd like to make all the windows myself.
Title: Re: 22 x 28 in Western New York's Southern Tier
Post by: GaryT on July 18, 2018, 07:41:08 AM
I have installed many Marvin windows over the years - both replacement and new construction; they are top shelf.  And you do pay for that quality.
Gary
Title: Re: 22 x 28 in Western New York's Southern Tier
Post by: SouthernTier on July 23, 2018, 10:55:36 AM
Got all the wood for the roof except the ridge beam (coming this week).

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pPWZpjTYYuhMZ27IHhixLQx48S8jMfSSm2xfnDhKlAPS2kF2FQ-fHy0YrrTZX5Kdcul_5GS5jjiluw=w800)

Moved that pile (plus one more) of 5/8" sheathing into the cabin.  That was as hard as I was expecting it to be, but still glad I went with that thickness.  So about 1/3 the way to the roof (second third is up to the loft, last third is out onto the rafters).  But I figure that first step means I can get it up there eventually.

I will have to recruit some folks to help get the ridge beam up there.  I was looking into getting the guy who worked on my basement to load it up there with a material lift, but he must  be too busy and I don't want to pay the "too busy" surcharge to get him out there.  The lumber yard did drop off the 9.25" LVL that I am putting up as a "shelf" to brace the front wall.  That is 22' but they sent me a 25' (must have figured no sense chopping of 3').  I easily carried that myself into the basement for storage.  So I figured each ply of the beam, each of which is only 70% more mass, could be handled by a 3-4 man crew with a block and tackle.  We'll find out.  In the meantime, I double checked that everything was level and ready to go for the beam - it was (the column cap will be moved over a tad - I was mainly checking levelness).  It checked out with the laser level, too.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/yFQbWQxzsliZYRxQ38QFwEvpD6Mo7-Kj9v3nsaRpxl0kosPFtgl_vJ5VB8sAFP1dLOkBRIG8poxR2Q=w720)
Title: Re: 22 x 28 in Western New York's Southern Tier
Post by: SouthernTier on August 22, 2018, 06:10:37 AM
Making progress on the cabin if not on updating my build thread (which is the correct order of priorities  :) )

Got the ridge beam up with the help of three friends.  The beam was two 14" wide LVLs, each 28' long.  Couldn't have gotten those up without help.  We slid one end up to the loft, and rested it on some blocking or headers.  Then used a rope and two pulleys to raise up the front gable end.  Each required one final push to get them over the notches and the Simpson Bracket on the post.  Glad to get that part done.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/TWyfjDCLizeERwhf1Gx189HJFqxGI4A9zGj0Vi9XEpirD4xSNbcdLSpwFTWr6NeY9HFJOyibNNunDg=w800)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/NyTIbfo1U9a-xCc3BnMqtsoq6QwUpACo_OvfeC_B6Ur2nsEafxV-HJ7Rs97qUvXmLM9JXtz7t5HUfA=w800)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/GsGktdKQuU1MDuA5pLYd5MNHCs91KIbNmYnuliUkO-yiOizTklFI8iD8U-8V8SXMsMQR6-kAL8YW_Q=w800)

All ready for the rafters.  Got most of the main ones up; was fortunate to have another friend help with that (one of us on each end of the 16' 2x12's).   Now working on the lookouts, then will do the roof sheathing.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/JEmWg3j-FReXW5SYeUzWoTU53QusIRr13Gh4tonthh_IG25WeycnezhEZW_apageM_9EwnFGc9Qf0Q=w800)

The tarpage you see on the left is where the shed dormer goes on that side.  Going to build the dormers after I  get the sheathing out there, feeding out through these "dormer gaps".

You can also see in that last photo the sideways LVL "shelf" I installed across the front gable for added wind support.

So you all are looking, anybody have any resources I can peruse for planning the lighting for the cabin.  I will have the electricity coming in soon.  If I like the electrician doing that, I plan on asking for a quote for the rest of the wiring (I know lots of you do 100% of the construction, but I plan to sub out the electrical, plumbing, heating, and the roofing; day job and other commitments are just too busy).  If I do that I need to get him a scope of work to bid on.

If I google "cabin lighting" I get all sorts of stuff for millionaire's big bucks ski chalets with deer antler chandeliers and stuff which isn't what I am looking for.  So if any have some pictures of lighting you've installed for smaller scale cathedral ceilings and rooms with exposed beam/joists, let me know.

I  am actually in someone else's cabin right now and I like their lighting on the cathedral ceiling - indirect with the light going down the sides. 

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/wDMtj8E12pMKrSP2M06GRk1eS2v3SEOHK9Y0w7HsQnvgMv6mOPf2fbyftUxsNNRBebMidhHEJKRFsA=w600)

I'll have a flat section like that at the top once I put in my collar ties.  Might be a pain in the but to change bulbs, though.

My wife was thinking  of just going with lamps, but that takes up floor and end table space.  But who knows
Title: Re: 22 x 28 in Western New York's Southern Tier
Post by: SouthernTier on September 22, 2018, 06:22:35 AM
OK, making progress but not posting much.  It was great taking that one week vacation in that other cabin with the light picture I posted above, but it took some time away from building.

I am trying to get to full dry-in and am getting close.  Cutting to the chase, I have most of the roof sheeting up and have started on the dormers:

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/LoffV5OM5cxtX3t5SdWuqJSigRsqTVcJ-690po639kpNo9GCFVq3S8pEizEP78_79IN8kkGLrNj_TQ=w800)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/qTg50U5vL_j6ClrFxabRxeLwAL9KdXiKGlUBkTf2N-25GFOAbFd3GYnnCc1jTEZQZjjHu75N590hsQ=w800)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/0WQyJb9-E-AOBPa-Goz7pt5RWzPvLREPVZ8ji30K0BcZilYV_visEU92-jfZxZEfuReKVIChybij0Q=w800)

After I got the rafters up as described in my last post, it seemed (to some at least, not really to me) that I should be getting the sheeting up right away (friends at work would ask each Monday, "got the roof up?").  But I knew the porch rafters and the barge rafters/lookouts would take some time.

The lookouts took a whole weekend.  The back wasn't so hard since they were shorter and I had the (temp) loft floor to stand on.  I actually built most of them first and then installed them into place (luckily my wife came to check out progress late Saturday since that was definitely a two person job).  The front one was much trickier as I had to build that in place, high up, and without a floor to stand on.  Technically it is not done since I need to face nail the barge rafters onto the lookouts (they are just temporarily connected now via toe-nailed screws) as there was no way I could get to the other side of those rafters until I get my deck made.  Pics:

Back:

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-zidt4IsIa0k8nRPdItLDPmDJ-O0hGGrcZCkjdYd9VEigMLbAgUkYeTh7rJ4SBv1I8I8XTAMxWaUrQ=w800)

Front:

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/XeqpddxUUgtTJQ7KDPVFm8zXh-L2bvs9-EGUxUYuozOqDoB90d_VUIINyNhFScP4aR2WseCydVbUdg=w800)

Then I had the ends of these barge rafters to detail, which I did in conjunction with putting up the porch rafters.  I took this shot showing just how complicated that gets:

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/oBfNITwnc3w2b5vLtBR8lqMDVIx3_EPdtfHS0JIl2ugs6-XX6QfB8eclD9xH7fxNspoeEB3mS1TcTw=w800)

That's the front corner on the porch side.  That's before I added more straps tying the porch rafters to the main rafters, making them parallel to the porch rafter.  that is Four straps, plus structural screws in the the top, some nails, and then the "blocking structure" I put between each rafter.  Normally you would block with a 2x8 or something, but because the porch rafters meet higher up on the main rafter (I did that so that each roof plane is exactly 12 feet, simplifying sheathing, and allowing a full 4/12 pitch to the porch roof) this would have been 20" tall of solid blocking.  So I built a square of blocking to which I will nail 20"x22.5" OSB on the outside.  I left 2" gap at the top for the air channel for the cold roof.

Getting the 5/8" sheathing up to the rood wasn't nearly as hard as I was expecting.  I had tried getting one up to the loft before just after hoofing all 46 sheets into the cabin for storage under the tarps.  However, I think all that hoofing was why I had nothing left to move them any higher.  Once I was fresh, I could easily push them up a ladder to the loft, then slide them out the dormer holes.

Next steps are to finish the dormers and then getting the foam insulation on the sides so I can get the windows in.  Then do the front deck so I can finish sheathing that wall and get the windows/doors in there, too.  Then I'll be dried in. (yeah, I have to zip tape the walls, too; keep putting that off).

A few questions for the experts out there:


That's it for now.  Back to work.
Title: Re: 22 x 28 in Western New York's Southern Tier
Post by: NathanS on September 23, 2018, 06:12:30 AM
It's looking good. You will have it winter ready for sure. The issue that starts to creep up at the time of the year is the dew. I remember finishing our roofing and only having 2-3 hours of dew free time on the north side of the roof per day. That was late October. I actually didn't get the mudroom roof done sometime well into November.


My opinions on some of your questions -

One thing about polyiso is that it derates in cold weather. In 0F it might not give you much more R-value (if any) than XPS.

Curtis Lumber had 1.5" XPS. Their prices were a lot worse on foam board than the Lowes generic, though. They price matched for us since we bought so much.

You are going to need some kind of temporary washer to hold the insulation up. Even those plastic roofing nail washers would probably hold until you get the furring up. I feel like I've seen people use those before.

I did not tape my insulation. My water and air barrier were the zip. I think it's redundant to tape the insulation if you already did the zip.

The snow on the mudroom roof thing... my drop is further than yours  - close to 6'. It is also over a living space. You could probably try calculating a worst case scenario and see if the rafters are at risk of breaking. I erred on the side of caution. A couple more rafters were cheap and it really wasn't much labor.

For the diagonal on the siding, I don't see any issue there either. That's how all gable ends finish. If the angle is too steep for a miter saw you can make a circular saw jig by screwing two boards together to make an X at the proper angle. That is how I did all of my gables.
Title: Re: 22 x 28 in Western New York's Southern Tier
Post by: SouthernTier on October 09, 2018, 06:44:15 AM
Holy smokes, Nathan your reply is dated September 23 and here it is October 9.  Sorry I did not pass along my thanks for your in put earlier.  Been extremely hectic but making good progress racing the end of the season.  Got just about all the roof panels on.  Here are the latest pics I have, but I've done more since then:

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/B0eq0GfqRILLrvj27-IrFRGf14PtVrDOBhLC8rjra93N7t46xrEyQw793cJRrA79PktJa3crLp72Pw=w800)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/muvcGr3JyHwI-fkodF-C-LydIYUCmhbQqoTvSF9dvYWfwq7Axb7CHBNxctmQM2Uw3Y1cyWHRehCgrQ=w800)

I've actually got the dormers pretty much done now, and yes, made progress on the tape on the walls, too.

As I mentioned above, I an chickening out about putting on the roof metal (fall danger),  and more importantly I want it done right as after the foundation, a good roof is probably the most important thing.

I am talking with contractors now.  I had been thinking of putting in the air channel just below the OSB/Zip (well more than thinking, that is the plan) and then nailing the steel right to the OSB.  One contractor I've talked with said he would recommend putting down purlins over the OSB, and applying some sort of "bubble wrap" insulation between them.

It seems to me this wouldn't make much sense if I am going with the vent channels under the OSB.  It would just be insulating something I am trying to keep cold. 

Any thoughts?   Would it make sense to do this rather than the air channel. 

I have to admit, I wasn't really planning on using purlins.  But if I ask the opinions of the pros, I don't want to dismiss either.
Title: Re: 22 x 28 in Western New York's Southern Tier
Post by: Don_P on October 09, 2018, 03:19:01 PM
That is not your roofer. You should put tarpaper or some form of slip sheet under the metal, it works with temp swings. I believe in sealing the roof to the deck using the precut foam seals from the supplier. I consider what you've done so far more dangerous than the metal, and you will be up there siding after. A ridge hook and ladder moving ahead of the metal and then on it with rags duct taped to rub points at the end sheets and when you are siding. But, if something doesn't feel good don't do it.

I usually run a "faker" rooflet across the lower end of the dormer, it ties it in better in my eye. This shot shows one and how I do it. Scrap ply cut to the shape forms a rigid shape, I then nail 2x to that to give nailers. Premade on the ground. There is a 2x4 cutout bottom rear so they just sit on a 2x4 ledger on the wall and the rest of the back has a flatways 2x4 to provide wall attachment.
(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftimbertoolbox.com%2Fcp%2Fpentroof.jpg&hash=9e8631fa5fbcbd66fa7571b780ae6fbc)

Title: Re: 22 x 28 in Western New York's Southern Tier
Post by: SouthernTier on October 09, 2018, 03:28:20 PM
Thanks Don. 

I didn't think it made much sense to put purlins on the deck if I have an air channel underneath it.  If that is what he wants to do, then I will pass on him.

He suggested 100% ice shield too which seemed excessive if I have the air channel.  Was going to just go with one row on the porch-less side, and maybe two rows from above the pitch break to below the wall on the porch side.

Was definitely thinking of putting in a faker like that, too.  Thanks for confirming my thoughts.

Yeah, siding those dormer walls....  ???
Title: Re: 22 x 28 in Western New York's Southern Tier
Post by: NathanS on October 10, 2018, 02:49:36 AM
I agree with Don.

Just about everything that roofer wants to do is wrong. Also, there are no circumstances that I can think of where bubble foil is not a complete waste of money. A radiant barrier requires an air gap, it stops working if it gets dusty, and the air bubbles are not as good as insulation.

I wish I had bought scaffolding to run the length of the eave on my house. It would have made everything go a lot faster.

I liked doing our metal roof, and I am not a fan of heights. You do get comfortable up there, and it is not hard to put a metal roof on the right way. ABC roofing has awesome installation manuals. A harness is a necessity, and always keep the slack tight enough that if you slide you don't go over the edge and dangle.
Title: Re: 22 x 28 in Western New York's Southern Tier
Post by: Don_P on October 11, 2018, 04:05:40 PM
With black timberlock screws you can run a 2x8 or better horizontal off the gable wall at some height convenient below the eaves and extended out 3' or so. Run a 2x post down at the outboard end and put a cleat on the post under the 2x8. Do the same out the window and off the far end. Between them attach a block to the wall into a stud and make a couple more supports. screw X bracing across several poles. Screw planks down and you are scaffolded. If the end posts extend up they can form a guard and curb.
Title: Re: 22 x 28 in Western New York's Southern Tier
Post by: SouthernTier on October 12, 2018, 03:16:48 AM
Thanks Don.  Good suggestion.  I recall Chugach Tinkerer doing something similar for his roof sheathing.
Title: Re: 22 x 28 in Western New York's Southern Tier
Post by: SouthernTier on November 03, 2018, 11:17:27 AM
I've been busy as usual, so haven't been updating much, but here is the latest.  I actually got an opportunity for a new day job which I took.  That means I will have less time to work on the cabin and will have to sub some stuff out, but I am getting close to getting dried in.

I have a love/hate relationship with dormers.  These took way longer than I expected them because they are so complicated, even though they are just shed dormers.  That is the hate part.  But I really enjoyed the intellectual challenge of figuring out how to build these.  I think they came out great.  Here is the "easier" one (the south side).  The north side was harder because it had a main roof pitch break along the sides since the porch rook started higher than the dormer.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/mIcbfC5dl2hy7K4WfAMW9haY22SMHwBKCFBnst9Ceq4l3heISnbvkaALaZkn5SVDAbE_ORnmZO8EOA=w800)

I just framed the side walls with 2x4s because of my design to not have to cut lengthwise any of the roofing panels.  Since I will have ceiling spray foamed, I will get these side walls foamed as well to get sufficient insulation.  The wall with the window will get the same 6"batt + 3" exterior foam board.

Speaking of which, I have a question.  Here you see the other side of that wall with and without the foam board:

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/g8yyhv3U-8BrcoLsJ3gHDqvN-bWkXFC1Oo6WbJ55L5rreyz8hLBMnHFSX8UvQgVyx1uB0jSoTCZw_A=w800)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/2Q6FS0lLQt1eyWiDGhkksTvLwcoZUbHsyGU17bNV_9CModGiSJp2LHtfQpwuzNSYmibRZ_fm__WRNg=w700)

Question:  I put the foam board up here first because I was thinking that the metal roof flashing for that wall to the roof would go on there.  However, now I am not so sure.  Since the foam boards aren't taped, but the Zip panels behind them are, perhaps the metal roof flashing should go zip panel-to-zip panel?  Opinions?  If I flash to the surface of the foam boards, water running down the rain screen will still get directed out, but any that gets behind the foam would have nowhere to go.  I will have all seams between foam boards covered with furring strips, and I suppose I could tape these boards as well, but would be interested in hearing your opinions.

Don:  You can see I implemented your advice on the short "fake wall"  Thank you very much for that suggestion:

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/ROByX4uD-_AomiQcbo472_QXZR1EvvioTUj6NUhOz0Ru7cVzcF5Hb5_nwPdkonIYbzXRkhQmLSPLrA=w800)

Started the deck.  I need that done to get the rest of the sheathing up on the front gable.  Not to mention the windows and doors there.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/0mWa2Z_IIH2V-6JjvTmyRkd_H0bGYwQlrMQzm_odpopYXPvtWKt6pGJpyzCmZTfhRvPjsn8EVYmJ1A=w800)

One last shot of the north side:

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/MHkcsX0l33F5oTwVZ1bxecA2D7CaCgsfweVZzKSl3pb2YsL7dC_Qc_ITgpAnnuA8mR75Z-AIDO4UtA=w800)

I didn't have much luck getting other roofers to take a look at this project, and I am running out of season (it already snowed once).  I might end up going with that roofer I mentioned earlier, but without the bubble wrap since that makes no sense for a cold roof.  I have talked with them some more and have gotten good references.  But they really say that the purlins (with the air gap underneath) is the way to go.  I have heard others say they do things similiarly around here.  The cost for the purlins is negligable in the total price, so I may just go with that unless you know of any reasons not to put them there.  They are warrantying the roof, so I don't want to instruct them to do anything besides what they normally do and risk voiding the warranty.
Title: Re: 22 x 28 in Western New York's Southern Tier
Post by: SouthernTier on November 11, 2018, 12:51:14 PM
Some updates.  Pictures first.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/eARokZh6eabR2clkjexae9xS8zMODfCVEy6G4bnSgKlXqhj3JlJd7lW5guDN0muD-QMZeIPgicH2VA=w800)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/XSmcjUbqrdDBu1vNF605RKSO6uKU5y0Zkpt4zlTJ137ox3xhpyUSpMfi6XEDZbrA1jGzjZ37mJQaPQ=w800)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/YNAvuAYSLavYhAYmFb-EYfSgCfmqdzdUNteCrIB96BE1ZKWWM3EpmpXMuaEU8Tno8NRNGYU0HNTcKw=w800)

As I mentioned in the last post, I hired out the roof installation, mostly because of running out of time and not trusting myself to get this done right.  As you can see, racing the weather.  Some more snow is in the forecast next week, and they have been good about getting out there when the weather allows. 

I will be focusing on finishing the deck so I can the last panels up on the front gable.  I was hoping to do that last weekend, but I had to return the generator and while the power was supposed to energized, it wasn't.  You can see the panel on the front of the basement.  Hopefully next week I can plug into this.  That will be nice.

After thinking about the flashing issue for the dormers, I had decided that I would need to remove the foam and have the roofers flash to the zip panel underneath, but when the weather had an opening, they dashed out there before I had a chance to talk to them (which overall is a good thing because of the weather - if we delayed the roof may not have gone on at all this fall which would have led to bigger problems).  Since the dormers are small, I plan to tape up all the seals along the polyiso panels, including at the top.

But I have a question on installing the windows where I had exterior foam (note, only doing exterior foam on the side walls in order to pass rescheck).  I was planning on installing 1x6's around the bucks so that that flange of the windows was installed along the same plane as the furring strips.  However, the more I think about that, it could be a problem.  Even if I flash the top of the 1x6, it would still allow a pathway for any water that got behind the foam panels to potentially work its way between the 1x6 and the buck, and only the buck would be fully flashed to the wall. I suppose I could flash the backside of the 1x6, installing it before I put the foam up, but that would be hard.

Opinions?  I can still remove those two 1x6 frames I have around the dormer windows before I put the windows in there.

Separate question:  the "design for code compliance" guide for decks (https://www.awc.org/pdf/codes-standards/publications/dca/AWC-DCA62012-DeckGuide-1405.pdf) says that diagonal braces only go out the out-most posts, and are actually prohibited for the posts in the middle.  Does anyone know the reason for this? 
Title: Re: 22 x 28 in Western New York's Southern Tier
Post by: NathanS on November 11, 2018, 01:57:11 PM
The roof looks nice, I'm sure it's a relief to have that done. Based on October and November (so far) it seems like it's gonna be a damn cold winter.

If I understand the window question right, it sounds like ideally you would have brought the window buck extensions out another 3/4" installed the windows, flashed everything, then butt the 1x6 up against that?

If it was me, I would remove the 1x6, cut the foam back a bit, (edit, forgot the most important bit, extend the jamb 3/4") install the window, tape the window flange to the window extension, the tape extending all the way back and connecting to the zip wall, then I'd put the foam and furring strips back on.

On the dormers since I think you're talking about making the foam the water barrier, you could remove the 1x6, install the window, tape the flange to the foam.
Title: Re: 22 x 28 in Western New York's Southern Tier
Post by: akwoodchuck on November 11, 2018, 02:32:28 PM

Separate question:  the "design for code compliance" guide for decks (https://www.awc.org/pdf/codes-standards/publications/dca/AWC-DCA62012-DeckGuide-1405.pdf) says that diagonal braces only go out the out-most posts, and are actually prohibited for the posts in the middle.  Does anyone know the reason for this?

This is what I found on it...(which I also call b.s. on) :
https://www.structuremag.org/?p=11302
Quote
Diagonal bracing can contribute to the stiffness of the deck and, therefore, cause additional lateral loads on the posts. Since center posts receive more vertical load than corner posts, additional lateral load can cause overstress. For this reason, DCA 6 does not show the use of diagonal bracing on center posts.
Title: Re: 22 x 28 in Western New York's Southern Tier
Post by: SouthernTier on November 11, 2018, 02:41:59 PM
The roof looks nice, I'm sure it's a relief to have that done. Based on October and November (so far) it seems like it's gonna be a damn cold winter.

Agree.  Another artifact of me doing the build this year.   I posted earlier (https://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=14507.msg195138#msg195138) how the town I am building in got more rain this summer than any other in Western NY (by a full inch!).  And then yesterday, the newspaper ran the story "Winter shows up ahead of schedule"

If I understand the window question right, it sounds like ideally you would have brought the window buck extensions out another 3/4" installed the windows, flashed everything, then butt the 1x6 up against that?

Not quite.  The 1x6 is (currently for the dormer) attached straight to the bucks.  That is the 3/4" extension.  I was going to install the window on that.  But I've changed my mind based on my thinking today.

If it was me, I would remove the 1x6, cut the foam back a bit, install the window, tape the window flange to the window extension, the tape extending all the way back and connecting to the zip wall, then I'd put the foam and furring strips back on.

This is what I'll do.  I only have to take the second of two 1.5" foam layers off, since the tape along the buck already extends about 1.5" from the wall.  That should be easy to do.

On the dormers since I think you're talking about making the foam the water barrier, you could remove the 1x6, install the window, tape the flange to the foam.

For the dormers, I will probably do both.  First extend the tape on the buck to the flange, then after reinstalling the top layer of foam, add another layer of tape connecting to the foam.

I was just concerned about the windows being too recessed, but that really isn't a problem.  I know yours are recessed about 3 inches. 
Title: Re: 22 x 28 in Western New York's Southern Tier
Post by: NathanS on November 11, 2018, 03:38:13 PM
Recessed windows does mean jamb extensions...

after I posted I tried to edit - what about extending the jamb out an extra .75".  You'd be glad when it is time to do siding that you don't have to do the jamb extensions.

This was a pretty terrible year weather-wise. We were getting snow on April 30th.. I was hoping it would balance out with a decent fall, but as soon as Oct 1 came we went straight from the 60s to the 40s.

And it has been unbelievably wet over here too. Our fields are like a swamp, but as of today it's been so cold I think it's starting to freeze up..
Title: Re: 22 x 28 in Western New York's Southern Tier
Post by: SouthernTier on November 11, 2018, 03:51:51 PM
Recessed windows does mean jamb extensions...

after I posted I tried to edit - what about extending the jamb out an extra .75".  You'd be glad when it is time to do siding that you don't have to do the jamb extensions.

I see what you mean.  Will have to give this some thought.

This was a pretty terrible year weather-wise. We were getting snow on April 30th.. I was hoping it would balance out with a decent fall, but as soon as Oct 1 came we went straight from the 60s to the 40s.

And it has been unbelievably wet over here too. Our fields are like a swamp, but as of today it's been so cold I think it's starting to freeze up..

Yeah, the reason that electric isn't energized is because the utility came out with the wire, transformer and everything, but the only access to their pole (which is on my property, about 20 feet in from the road) is to cut over from my driveway (distance less than 100') as there is a ditch and tress right at the road.  Normally not a problem but right now it's a swamp.  They will have to come back with a piece of equipment with a track.
Title: Re: 22 x 28 in Western New York's Southern Tier
Post by: SouthernTier on November 11, 2018, 04:58:39 PM
Did some more searching.  I found this detail:

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftrailmap.us%2Fwindows.jpg&hash=b4e60bfd3d3f75dc4b7cc9fb3023c7a3)

from here: http://www.solaripedia.com/files/1004.pdf

That is pretty much as I have it so far, with the built-in bucks reaching as far out from the zip panels as the insulation I plan to add (3" in both cases).  This author doesn't look like he used jamb extensions (although he says that now does "innies" like you did Nathan and adds the extensions there), but on a photo on page 6 of that PDF it sure looks like he has the bucks extending one furring strip length farther out.  If I did the 3/4" extension, I am scratching my head on how I would install the furring frame around the window after the fact.  Nothing to attach it to except the OSB 3" behind the foam.  That was what my frame you can see now at my dormers was for, but I didn't think through the flashing.
Title: Re: 22 x 28 in Western New York's Southern Tier
Post by: NathanS on November 11, 2018, 05:18:37 PM
Oh yeah, the "REMOTE wall," those guys know their stuff. Don't think anything's wrong with it as long as the window does extend .75" past the flange.

If you did extend the jambs 3/4", you should have king studs next to the window that you can use structural screws to attach the furring strips.
Title: Re: 22 x 28 in Western New York's Southern Tier
Post by: SouthernTier on November 11, 2018, 05:36:44 PM

If you did extend the jambs 3/4", you should have king studs next to the window that you can use structural screws to attach the furring strips.

Well I overthought this since I had years to design it before I started building.  What I did was get a 2x10 board and then cut down its width above and below the window to 3.5"  So no king stud next to it.

Doing the math, 9.25" - (5.5" stud + 0.5" OSB) = 3.25" so I would just have to extend it by 1/2" to make it flush with 3/4" furring strips over 3" foam.  I will probably just do that and then figure out about the frame.

I suppose I could put 1x4 furring *inside* the wall next to the window framing, and then attach the outside furring frame with 4.5" structural screws.  They'd only bite 1-1/4" into solid wood (1/2" OSB + 3/4" inside furring), but that should be enough for those frames.  The vast majority of the furring strips will bite 1.75" into the studs using 6" Timberloks (neglecting the loss due to the slight upward angle).

The good news about all this, though, is I can get the windows installed now before I put the foam boards up.  That will move up the official dried in date.
Title: Re: 22 x 28 in Western New York's Southern Tier
Post by: Nate R on November 11, 2018, 05:59:42 PM
Just wanted to say thanks for documenting this build so well, AND your thought process as you move along. Good to see what you're thinking about and what decisions you're making along the way.

As I prepare for a planned 2020 build, with a fall 2019 foundation pour, I see a lot of similarities!  ;D 
Some time to plan yet for me, and as I think through some of the details, seeing some of what you've decided to to really helps.

Windows: As you mentioned earlier, I had similar frustrations with trying to decide on windows. My wife's request to have a dark color inside and out, and push to go with a prefinished interior window and jamb have swayed me towards Marvin's Integrity All-Ultrex (Fiberglass) line. Not cheap, but not the worst. For recreational, should be good enough, right?  :D

Title: Re: 22 x 28 in Western New York's Southern Tier
Post by: SouthernTier on November 12, 2018, 03:57:24 AM
Just wanted to say thanks for documenting this build so well, AND your thought process as you move along. Good to see what you're thinking about and what decisions you're making along the way.

Thanks.  But my build and my documentation can't hold a candle to NathanS's project and documentation.  I hope you've read through his topic.  I go back and refer to it all the time.
Title: Re: 22 x 28 in Western New York's Southern Tier
Post by: SouthernTier on February 27, 2019, 07:00:03 PM
Been a while since an update.  I started a new job last fall which really took up a lot of time, especially since the timing was somewhat informed by something really big they had me do all December, and after that got over I got a nasty cold.

But good progress.  Still not 100% dried in.  Just have to finish the blocking at the eaves and get the slider doors in.  And as you can see the roofing contractor only got about 95% done before the snow set in.  Pics:

From the back:

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/nVqO4HVABzoQCEyM3M66IrNNVDpSMFRE9sfFWICcXd4UovH3ThYM6C29-iQz8P5gg98RbF4ZR78EiGhZpvqkHrYXgATN1rXQcBUGVnoBcBpt9dCKIZnmGDCxVAdb1lvzJq0Rtxrl0MzwBL6ueQKeR5ABZdN3QXd0UYWK-sOkO42izU9iub23Vud5ob6F6Gr3RmSHxkZp-PTz02HDrzYBScYzAcSt2BqCma5okUdo99mcRdicBb3kEL5qV2XEHCbPh2kGC-0RsHTOcM35KA-clh5uxozkdL4ebsyibNX3EA_RaN_Q1TocD_ByXxhmOCs77FBzH2OMK7Fe37KvAHLSwoUiH7VRUQ4zB0KEgGTF4esOiHhzhbxvp5rzIvY6TIFmrxqFbfAWZwcehK1-49WFwR1n4kIX7p9kNBMdw2KK7kHfqBjgzJdSQQj0du36vrUmZ4Fz-AK9I1w1gdlpsL6qX54QjXMOkR0-9kGhL0YeZgLXVCa4Ud5hMVd2joaYEGwAzeRtVedIhA67PHJVbb1xVYhfPSs1FbWdNjbOol0hfALpcJWBpXUmmMA2ylbjUF6dBtAsZQYvj8xOVo3zrnkeMGVLmlBufZUwIODNWzs5htBeGFlok-HK3cUD_em0kAdi2-pEEFigT2LeL5ET3-VPLLBXkFsH_kQl1mJVREmnLP8mr_AVjkFqnSQerCoIKT3d-lHM2Mh1R34lmdHXgciY6BNK=w800)

You can see I have all types of windows - casement for getting the egress size without a huge double hung, awnings for the dormers, and double hung for the rest.  So far no problems with the Andersen windows, but I would say this:  for the double hungs, we went with the 200 series, but for that small window on the back (bathroom) had to go with the 100 series because that was the size that fit (did the rough openings before deciding to upgrade to 200 series).  There was definitely a step up in quality from the 100 to 200 that wasn't noticeable in the showroom.  So I am hoping to have better luck than Nathan with these.

The front:

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/XOPsE1pZIXpuwazCfjBItK3rGON9sqc8EzKPUDghycfvMDrSqZAvNbTMgIGQQ8iAZdPYlzV0RxSjrSbiOJh0U5inGEaJTvsZ83fpiACG6X1Mbk1CcdqtXRNBUKCLE1kJT9bbpQhfLoPdueUwMLQSIKJ7RkcPcsmJzv2bF_l-fgll4szLOTPe1Q4OUAvm5tD4gs-tMuWpQwTdxtfpjgB3Dpgnkh9XVd9nXvDu8At2PkG41-SNgaB49n-3bxUjKJyv3ySPNJgNVH0npYyVGbVLed3gpU8VQZ1xrCgXL-r0l5mwSyjkXyIOUvzJUXYfcaXNi2mgYjTUikGNO_-4Su6OVsjFWOvzY1sE-5c4KhE8Ooi5BKsYNfuk_x_S6SkkQX46LB2ecDUCCoW0VfiQgg1fyBD9BERyS_zmYwhgB3s3bULqtoe7iPHZ-Q7Hi-ZgMVtdTlo7gj8DkuVgEy_pMrEdCZYZNYTwjRfxtrrFjmjSVQgDbRKddo5gpScWqY4F1ynLdpYxXKKsnDsoigK5hjW0LxbURMMG4cOHbRTVl5izoTi4eV8JNPMxsMepjxOMqI4eEvDkjixDPPhqedSQ5DVDkxq5vUDzL1NxUra6b7LkWByBTjOdZNoDwuHdOGKQvKsWylR0Al1-nOyfL7ELpNrHNhEuA9mzQFBl1th8TiFXmMeaB8AAu09SrAlyOZHqCrOc0WbusKEhgnMsKyVuc-avQVTe=w800)

As you can see, I have my 3 inches of external foam board on the north side.  I need to add it to the south side still.  No foam board on the front gable as these are 2x8 framing and with rockwool insulation in there will get to R30.  No foam board on the back either because I am easily meeting code with rescheck without it (just the R-19 fibreglas inside).  I know some will say I should have put some furring strips for a rain screen on for these gables, but for the front, it would just drain onto the windows or doors except for the shear panels on the sides, and the back is pretty much out of the weather with the steep hillside and trees behind it.

Here are some shots of foam before and after the furring strips.  As you can see, I will have some limited conductive heat loss since I had the rafters still out 3" - I did that so that they wrapped over the top plates rather than just sitting on them, so I could fasten them better.  Not sure if that was an issue or not, but that's what I did.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Hkr0KcTqa07Z_Qotx9CwNwPqMcC4_gI9ZtA3KiF8EUT1Q14gCnu2mr5dJJTArsUBDKRLM8QfJPL7uMrmZtf1cW4artyjUAZ7C5IE4Mm4cO4AldwPitUrxKdgNJyAkm8KrmhepmN6D7h3pEkDT49Gfc5Sc9HM7c2PzFUmyBIozEADUvSXIN4P_jUVcYjO13JS36ACEyVQTjbPj53g0eMIk-WqEpbUG_PdZ7Dw0NFkQQcNmwNi8BDl7B2sKI_cjtF01zJOyW5H6SQ1Kw2lnL7paFloQVhMkFdfvV8Bqh-uXB2oq53Jl53un1f-0YXk-McLXehq1bB5rw-9ggY3wxUvQcuhJ5xoFeZdX7_a_P9Q937BTFDvKR1sp37pybVj59a2VWqjOgMEzy_fXtd0g3DyMhvUXFabaXlDZM70W7qgomBgARfT8WCmGiYSS3YE8cQQ9HO3DmqOZ0zA0rgcPQcAypXROFfUSLqluCLbrwKorSpbBK6HzIML0wWavyBvOrvQT4ys4QEtC4qxphcFuDzuf4FL_ipbKQtVPyteCEgAzdmzbUYZfrAGIJstbNx5_NGcADIgSk2_R6eVMXjfHtvHi1EMemKLBf5MRphw2X9Ut_hlAVHDYfO4rUPMtaVjUroDPHQq8j8OdrmykPRkm-lGbSJVyNjFGZ_GSbnUf_VHVLDPq4BHq1FOrCgDloxGRotSW4AM3US-bA_h9qT83b0NUjlY=w800)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_41-667hM0f2-yl9PtosLGop7UmlcjV_Vit8nvUHDr-9a1Q-nwosANXQwG4LUyBqcgAT1p6NRxkViOAUBrfswBhFxO6LkhsU5MB_isALrOrFmRo5DV339jagoT12LdLpFFC0LpeZ7fmzWGFGH5iCwN5mSOj_hBsgV1o01V552vR7Lzz02dvYR73scqMmt-Vc5JPNMYyBlnAUBhQi6sCZOuJXH2zO9h2p5oy66i7wb21rgCgGQyX_260QRkmYVM5hEmjIUu04catu8wxu-WQtcLYBWJQVS63D5H5Kw-b6CdI7167LcEMy8BifR10113XDpk0cbzFFcJV6BJQkZkOw2FGAnYCJTqff7ckYUFq5rioytePaVdfU14s_4F7VmKie_d_5oDDO4pKcd6kitZmCoF4lGxakGaaUJLNLCurxNumXsHc05pURQK0aL2vqc92g7_5JmW6R2jTELRSzDCf3DwWgHO2t4VFa1Vlx6MdpXG-wX0QH0JbmozbjAajh-Cy1gqY8rx8m0UMBRSpzJgIeOlsnHQo0GleaqyJhRp57Qs_MVo4NyBDvB-eUNd_PTZQFiH9XxiA_oWCCABFhnY6ZhccbA2rJ-qRbgrNxs5Gk6HlPofzxbc-IT8idWwiOZ04J9RGyJUm7E2gUFaKKCMbxpczNLdyBQ-p5ARtZUSWFkj9mm6IzvN2OkL3tYfbvKGpkAQuvvZlLIfm9jKUvB8wXIz9E=w800)

More before and after:

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftrailmap.us%2Fshed%2Fbefore1.jpg&hash=8b3ee3794ba4226b961a9374c994d301)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftrailmap.us%2Fshed%2Fafter1.jpg&hash=cc38634e28b66f202bd0ad1940add1d6)

So question time.

As you can see, a big part on the to-do is getting those slider doors in.  The main reason they aren't in yet is they are so heavy.  The delivery driver and myself could barely drag them into the basement, and doing that hurt my back bad.  I need to recruit a crew to help me haul them up to the deck.

I haven't finished the flashing yet for those openings, although you can see I have bottom flashing in (Zip stretch tape).  However, in doing my research, it seems like I would really do well by putting in a PVC rigid pan with positive outslope.  I was thinking something like the jamsill (http://jamsill.com/).  Has anyone used something like this?  Worth it?

Then there is the issue of size.  Here is the drawing from Andersen for the slider door:

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftrailmap.us%2Fshed%2Fdoor.png&hash=0ce83dea753e1f920fe81b86d96771dd)

So it looks like the door is 5-1/8" (or maybe 5-3/16" - about the same) wide, but 1-3/8" sticks out, so really the width is only 3-3/4".  Am I reading that right?  I ask because it seems like the standard pre-formed sills come in 4-9/16" and 6-9/16" widths.  That's what Lowes carries.  And those are the series that Home Depot has for the brand they carry (suresill). 

jamsill makes a 3-5/8" size, but I don't know where to find it.

Anyone have any experience with this?
Title: Re: 22 x 28 in Western New York's Southern Tier
Post by: Don_P on February 28, 2019, 02:33:06 AM
No experience with it but it gets good reviews. I've bent flashing and used flex tape. On moving heavy sliders I've pulled the panels I can and carefully moved the frame then reinstall the panels, but yes many hands makes light work.
Title: Re: 22 x 28 in Western New York's Southern Tier
Post by: NathanS on February 28, 2019, 06:17:31 AM
Your place looks great, everything is clearly well thought out. That was a great idea to use casement for the egress, I wish we had done that as our covered porch roof is going to need a pretty low slope to fit below our egress windows. I hope you have better luck with Andersen than we did, the 4th window just stress cracked a few weeks ago and they won't cover labor anymore. Not sure if I mentioned before that the one window I pulled and reflashed poured water out of the top miter joints when i leaned the window forward. Not good - you really want to flash the hell out of those rough openings.

I would flash the entire rough sill, jambs and head with tape, and then use a rigid flashing over top that. I rented a metal break and did it myself. One issue with aluminum is that it is so conductive it sweats a lot during the winter, I don't think the finger jointed jambs are thanking me for that. I think positive slope to the outside and backdams are also a great idea.

Lately I have thought in a perfect world I would flash all rough openings all the way back over top the interior surface (drywall, wood) and put trim over that so that if anything migrates inward I will see it.
Title: Re: 22 x 28 in Western New York's Southern Tier
Post by: SouthernTier on February 28, 2019, 10:36:34 AM
Thanks Don and Nathan.

I ordered two sets of the 3-5/8" Jamsills direct.  They were very helpful.

For the windows, and the one (conventional) door (that door is located under the porch roof, but have been building as if it weren't), I have been putting the stretch tape along the bottom edge, and then the regular Zip flashing tape along the rest of the bottom edge.  For the sides and top, I have just been flashing the edges (one layer of the Zip tape).  After I install the windows with the side/top caulking and screws, on the sides I have a single row of Zip flashing tape on the sides over the nailing fin and onto the zip panel, but on the top, I first put one row in L-shape fashion on the top of the brickmould and then over the screws in the nailing fin, and then a second (flat-wise) row over that, covering where the nailing fin is and extending to the sheeting above.

This is for flush-mounted windows.  For the ones that butted out for solid insulation, I flashed all the way back around the butt:

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/H_LJY8QyvdH9MUFUGhK3qUNDKxJQV1N0lJTe4HBt5b46z117w8SZBcIqxznWCYjdt0jBSmhCigcigulpFpensmQS-sMZKTk-Kl9LJFD0Lx_pAzSseBHFxSSCubHvqHljfMeIwJkdpwtGpy7AJkGSIP8aQNnICtq2Gh4t365KMFWIsQoZC4n4pSES8G96XxFg8FldE_VHLB5wy7CnnrvbOLA0Ct09A0WquZA7vLHqEVhK2dZ-1q_M3FDD1MBIoTizBaKkpVbY_mxdSkDCE9dD41TwoVmO76nkhyXq7mH_H52r572qzymCmJqaNgbVrLgngsZmsH5sH6UgUlmBhQEUo0Qj3DRgR-LNwzFy1gkd2oZwCpZIrEXnWRMOmJYqkA1pc9rWKAOc-4eCKhiT70ENlVTVpYSACE_YD860j2GjuBRgjWkNG8TE67BLPPha1RUs8MEycHUBliUHeF7X0bQnnJYuNP135HGAnCRhvesQGlu1wbzbkuGJWPRfvf0CtQLgRin8szmzyEmYVemFIUpu6vb6LjgIQ3aMhlHt2kLfmxVLJZDd-n0CxW-gWIS7YyI9i1Po_bA7YghHcDzJ6tvAjdPnEpKmiYVqPqdOkeH2eI91Ld0bpUP9n7nKxpND7JVOnP7KoMRDoYuIaN_qAJzEIeiAE78eGJbOkEnGqu0pZAatuEP8Z_V5R9Vlk0-wIG-RsXtaHwOeEwitz1m0LypqjttJ=w800)

So I kept the WRB behind the foam.

The Andersen instructions say to install a drip cap, but I can't seem to find them.  I think they put that in their instructions so they have an excuse to void the warranty if they leak.  I figure the first row of tape along the top of brickmould serves that purpose.  No one will ever be looking down onto the brickmould.

That said, for the sliders, I am thinking of building a short overhang above them.  Not only would that keep some water off those doors, but it would put a place where I could put some lights facing down above the doors, as well as some speakers for tunes on the deck.

Any tips on size and construction techniques for a short overhang hung off the wall?

I searched for "brow roof" and this is the closest I came up with:

(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/43607068_1080798848746825_3121069566256480256_n.jpg?_nc_cat=110&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=7a57f3902967c287524dd7a72ca3ec58&oe=5CE126C3)

But I don't want to necessarily tie it into the eaves on the side because, well, I can't as it too low.

Just trying to get some ideas on aesthetic slopes and how far to stick out. 
Title: Re: 22 x 28 in Western New York's Southern Tier
Post by: Nate R on February 28, 2019, 05:47:38 PM

I ordered two sets of the 3-5/8" Jamsills direct.  They were very helpful.


The Andersen instructions say to install a drip cap, but I can't seem to find them.  I think they put that in their instructions so they have an excuse to void the warranty if they leak.  I figure the first row of tape along the top of brickmould serves that purpose.  No one will ever be looking down onto the brickmould.



The Jambliner looks interesting....new to me.

As I've been browsing windows, I've seen drip cap sometimes as an option from some manufacturers when you spec/build/price the window out. Glass options, grille options, etc, and it will sometimes be part of the trim options. (Like jamb extensions.)
Title: Re: 22 x 28 in Western New York's Southern Tier
Post by: NathanS on March 01, 2019, 08:42:00 AM
Your windows are so well protected by overhangs you could leave them open in a monsoon and not a drop will get inside.

Extruding roll flashing through scrap pieces of plywood or wood has worked well for me. You could do that to make head flashing, then cut to a couple inches longer than the window to fold over the jambs.

I am curious about what you come up with for the small roof over the french doors. I have thought about doing that over one set of ours for extra protection.
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