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General => Owner-Builder Projects => Topic started by: NathanS on May 13, 2016, 07:04:09 AM

Title: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on May 13, 2016, 07:04:09 AM
Last fall we bought the 2-story universal plans and have made a few modifications. The biggest change has been adding an 8x12 mudroom to the entrance area. I am planning to do most of the work myself, the exception being the excavation and sitework. We are also going to have our excavator do the flatwork - our house will be a slab on grade.

Here is our basic layout. The bottom edge of the plans face south. I am moving the mudroom door entrance to the north wall of the mudroom. The hallway between the mudroom and kitchen will be a pantry that extends under the stairwell.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F7KGvQoI.png&hash=32f9621632d528c945181038fbaed57a)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FldKKOVS.png&hash=dd16e5673aa634cf9667fe295f87acda)

Here is a view the property facing south - the house will be relatively close to the shed I built last fall. We have 24 acres, 10 in hardwood and 14 in field. We've also got a nice stream that separates the north field (where pic is taken) and south field. We are surrounded by 1700 acres of public land. It is a very peaceful place. Remarkably electric is available and it will cost $437.25 to hook it up to the house.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FblAq8XZ.jpg&hash=3a979be60937dbd7317e580bc52beb3d)

Here is the excavation. We had a relatively dry April, but you can see that the deepest corner is seeping some water. Go figure we got 2 inches of rain the next day, and are getting more rain right now. I ran string and got things pretty square and level, but I decided that forming and pouring the footing by myself is not a one man job. It has been too much for me to keep up with the mud and water that is leaking out of that corner. I called the excavator and he will be doing the footing for me. The high water table is one of the many reasons we decided to not do a basement.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F3YfvoHo.jpg&hash=d11ef8712c0957ea08d0593ffbfecc87)
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: LegionFarms on May 13, 2016, 10:54:17 AM
Looks great! I am excited see your progress!
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on May 16, 2016, 06:21:40 PM
Quick update...

The footing is done. When I stopped by they said the lines I ran for layout were level and square, so at least I was on the right track.

There are 2 #4 rebar in the footing. Hoping to get started on the block later this week. The plan is to lay 6 courses of 8" block then backfill inside and out, put in lots of insulation and pour the slab.

By the way, the furthest pile of soil you can see is the beginning of our leach field. We have about 2 feet of top soil and then hard pan.. which is why any water that gets in the trench stays there. A leach field requires 4 feet of soil. In NYS if you have less than 2 feet of top soil things get very expensive. It's against the law to build a house without an engineered septic system.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FxKl3jWG.jpg&hash=759dd92af81d4f66795c8fc0bb49345f)
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: nailit69 on May 17, 2016, 01:46:50 AM
Looking good... those are some serious footers.  What about your vertical bars?  Will you roto-hammer them in after you lay out your walls?  Around my neck of the woods the inspectors like to see them tied into the footing... we used to just wet set them but we're not allowed to anymore.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on May 17, 2016, 05:17:55 AM
Thanks for the input nailit.. I am going to drill #4s @ 48" OC once the block is laid out.

I have been a little on the fence about doing the verticals.. we will only have 1 foot of unbalanced fill.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: LegionFarms on May 17, 2016, 07:21:21 AM
When I look at foundations, footings, etc. they always seem like they would be too small for what they are intended for, but when the building goes up it always works out and I am amazed! I am not much of a visual person as I am a conceptual person.

Good job!
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Don_P on May 18, 2016, 04:47:27 AM
My wife cried when she saw our footings (man down!  :D)... I drew another floor that night, which I don't regret in the least, but, now I remind the owners that they are comparing it to the great outdoors for awhile. The feeling changes as it closes in.

That wouldn't get verticals here, or just a token few. I would use clean gravel to backfill the interior. Edge insulation is very important. At 1.5" of foam on the edge I can feel the heat wicking out 2-3' back into the room on a cold day. I had run xps from footing to top of slab but later removed the section between ground and bottom of siding when I saw tunneling beginning. I wrapped the remainder in flashing at that edge, anyway a poor detail, think that area through it can be a serious heat wick. I've never hooked up the radiant but the tubing was cheap enough to put in there prior to pouring.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on May 18, 2016, 05:17:28 AM
Don that sounds similar to what I'm planning... I am putting 4" of XPS under the slab and 2" on the inside edges (slab will be poured in a basin of insulation). I wanted to miter the top edge of the insulation because I'm already going to have a problem with the edge of the block sticking out inside of the 2x6 framing.

I had been thinking about popping the block walls out 2" in all directions but I really don't want to have to cut all that block. I want to keep it simple. I also want to keep the slab exposed at least for a few years.. we have a lot of massive Ash on our property and I daydream of using it  for a flooring when the borers kill it all.

Also thinking I will run pex in floor with no plans of ever hooking it up.. since it's cheap :)

I did not want to run the exterior insulation subgrade because I am worried that it's going to act as a conduit for ants. I am considering doing 3" of Roxul comfort board on the exterior of the house. Not cheap but I think that is the most resilient insulation out there. Rock wool is the only thing I trust under ground long term.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on May 23, 2016, 01:29:47 PM
Making progress on the blocks. Rechecked for level and square after laying the corner for the third course and have stayed very accurate.

This is my first time doing block work.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FquViKAd.jpg&hash=16b5b415b1285377d3f4b4d1e93c60de)
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on May 25, 2016, 04:41:42 AM
I'm closing in on the half way point for laying the blocks.

Can anyone recommend a waterproofing for the the foundation walls?

The slab is going to have poly underneath it, and that vapor barrier will connect to the sill sealer.. so we shouldn't have interior moisture issues even if the walls weren't sealed. Still, I'd like to at least cover the exterior of the walls in addition to running a foundation drain to daylight.

There are a lot of paint on products that claim they are rated for below grade exposure.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: pmichelsen on May 25, 2016, 08:37:37 AM
I've used this in the past when doing foundation work: https://www.whitecap.com/shop/p/basf-corporation-masterseal-hlm-5000-roller-grade-5-gal-51677002 followed by a dimple board.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Adam Roby on May 25, 2016, 08:49:00 AM
I wouldn't rely on "waterproof" paints.  There are elastometric asphalt emulsion membranes designed for waterproofing foundation walls and other structures, and the dimple board mentioned is also good to help divert water downwards.  That would also mean you should consider a french drain around the base of the foundation to give that water an escape route away from the foundation.  Consider also grading the surrounding area afterwards so runoff goes away from the foundation, and any downspouts dump far away as well.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on May 25, 2016, 04:14:44 PM
Yeah the paints (drylok) didn't sound right to me. Thanks for the input. It looks like I can order that BASF stuff online.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Don_P on May 25, 2016, 04:50:13 PM
It should require at least a week of accelerated weathering including various soaps and solvents and it should be able to find places where you have no idea how it crept to or it isn't any good.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on May 25, 2016, 05:04:15 PM
Don, I don't understand what "a week of accelerated weathering including various soaps and solvents" means?

Do you mean like field testing a product in the worst possible conditions and seeing if it passes those tests?
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Don_P on May 25, 2016, 05:20:49 PM
You should look like a Br'er Nathan by the time you crawl out of the hole, that's a sign of the really good stuff  ;D
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on May 25, 2016, 05:33:44 PM
hahaha Tar baby
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on May 26, 2016, 05:11:27 PM
Making progress..

Building inspector stopped by this afternoon. He was happy with how everything looked and said he started out as a brick layer. I thought that was pretty cool.

He thought tar would be fine for the walls.

For parging it looks like just make sure the block is clean, make it a little damp and trowel on some type S?

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FXYF8pis.jpg&hash=c8227899c55aaa3dbb679af2428e4c5e)
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Don_P on May 26, 2016, 06:05:26 PM
 I prefer to go as dry as I can to reduce shrinkage cracks, you'll find what works. When it is thumbprint hard I take a slightly damp sponge and smooth the surface. If it is going to show it usually takes 2 coats to keep the block grid from telegraphing through. Lime can make it stickier but it weakens it too.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on June 01, 2016, 04:21:47 AM
Only one course left.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fz0vlCRR.jpg&hash=90305a37856f7caa95b226a220aa3d28)

I found some old 90s block laying tutorials on youtube that really helped me out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAlJ_8zMxlQ

Also this guy Mike Haduck has a lot of great 'how to' videos on masonry in general.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1By4oBZiv9u8qnkcdCgdqw

One tip for newbies like me, even when you're laying block to the line you should still check for level perpendicular to the line. I didn't do this on a few courses so some of my blocks are about 1/16th out of of level. Can't really see it, but if you run your hand down the wall you can feel the edge of the block here and there.


When I was laying out everything for square, I took every single triangular measurement I could take.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FF2Kqng1.png&hash=d12e7abb185f9bc4800dc1474d64e61e)

I was satisfied within 1/8". When laying the corners I confirm the top of each course is plumb, level and in units of 8".
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: azgreg on June 01, 2016, 05:33:36 AM
Looking real good Nathan.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Don_P on June 01, 2016, 03:32:01 PM
Save the address of that pic and post it often  [cool] (include building dimensions on that sheet as well). I really appreciate it when the designer includes that page, although you can do the math in the field with a calculator you aren't going to do it all. With that sheet prepared ahead of time you are much more likely to get it right.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on June 02, 2016, 08:20:15 AM
Thanks Don and Greg. I printed out several copies and during layout, and on the 3, 4, and 6 courses I wrote down the actual measurements along every diagonal. I never needed to make any adjustments because I was able to keep the corners very plumb. I thought it would be cheap insurance, though.

All measurements for 6th and final course are within 1/4 inch. I walked around with my 4' level to check how close I am to 48" everywhere, and I'd say I'm +/- 1/8". I'm satisfied.. it's probably more straight than any of the lumber I'll be working with.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on June 05, 2016, 06:08:22 AM
Finished laying the block on Friday. Hard work, but went surprisingly fast. Two weeks prior we spent the day squaring the corners, then that Saturday we layed two blocks in every corner. I also did not work every day.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fj3MVu42.jpg&hash=211f5ca3745379aff98bd7f76576b9ed)

Anyone have suggestions on what to use for core fill? Have been reading up on it, and as with most things masonry, it's a little cryptic.

ASTM C476 is the standard specification for grout. The paper itself is hidden beyhind a paywall. But I found other sources that say it is really just a watery concrete mix. 1 part cement, 2.25-3 parts sand and if you want to make coarse grout you would also add 1-2 parts crushed stone or pea gravel. The standard calls for at least 2000 psi.

Seems like the simplest thing to do is buy premixed concrete and make it a little runny. I need to fill at least 8 cores to a depth of 4 feet. At .13 cu/ft per core .13 x 6 = .78 cu/ft per core fill. Lowes has 50lb bags of 4000psi concrete on sale for $1.89. Two bags would give me .76 cu/ft if I didn't mix it runny, so with the extra water I should easily get a core fill per two bags. So we're looking at about $3.78 per core fill.

Any opinions?
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Don_P on June 05, 2016, 04:40:42 PM
That would be fine. The grouting codes are kind of hidden in the wall chapter (if you can't find something look in that chapter for whatever reason  d*) Check around R609
http://codes.iccsafe.org/app/book/content/VA/2012_VA_Residential_HTML/Chapter%206.html
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on June 05, 2016, 06:08:45 PM
Wow, thanks Don, I must have read the foundation wall section 3 times looking for the grout specs. Never thought to check the (other) wall section.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Don_P on June 06, 2016, 01:59:36 AM
If I had a dime for every time... I wish there was a quick cross reference sending you there.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on June 09, 2016, 02:57:19 PM
Haven't had the greatest weather for the past few days. Finished parging today and also got a bunch of dampproofing up on the dry stuff.

Did an ugly job when started parging.. by the end I was pretty good at it. And my wife is even better.

The top foot will get a stone veneer. We have a bunch of nice old stone shale walls on the property. My masonry blades go right through it so we could do some kind of a dry stack veneer.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F3QhU3D7.jpg&hash=225652d403da3e507818cc98fd427e6e)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FNse39TZ.jpg&hash=3239958e6db8f0ce31ead23443fc9b6f)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F5rDxsXZ.jpg&hash=6ef33ea72d97e7afefa55059edc4e5eb)
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: nailit69 on June 10, 2016, 01:52:30 AM
Will you fill the cells with concrete or leave them hollow?  I filled mine but I wanted it to be "Built Ford Tough"  ;)
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Redoverfarm on June 10, 2016, 02:54:27 AM
The biggest culprit in parging block is the block will wick most of the moisture out of the mortar.  To combat that use a garden sprayer and mist the block first then parge. Same goes for when you lay the stone.  I normally parge the area where the stone is to be laid and then lay your stone upon that.  Some use a rake and scratch the surface to give divots for the adhesion.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on June 13, 2016, 11:53:57 AM
I core filled the corners and am also core filling + rebaring the spots beams will be supported by posts. Also throwing in a few rebar here and there just for the heck of it. The foundation is going to be filled with stone on the inside, so there will only be 1' of unbalanced fill.

My excavator stopped by today to let me know that the town offered to drop off fill (sandy top soil) since they are redoing and grading the sides of our road. I can't believe it. Unscreened topsoil is $20 a yard here.

Backfill should be done early next week.

I have been mixing everything by hand. I used that cement mixer in a few pics for 4 bags and then it stopped working. Not sure if it just needs a reset or what. Probably have mixed 60 or 70 bags with another 20 or so to go. A few people 'warned' me of how unpleasant tarring would be. They must not have done much masonry. I could tar all day.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on June 17, 2016, 09:03:49 AM
Well the walls were finished earlier this week. The inspector stopped by yesterday and was happy with how it all looked.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FeIti44h.jpg&hash=5d99219a63dce2cc79816e0dcbc9213f)

Tried to make sure all the bolts will not hit any studs and would be within 1' of corner or end of sill plate as well as <=6' on center. I realized I made one mistake on the 22' wall - I don't think I will get any plates longer than 16' so needed two bolts close together where the two pieces of sill join.

Hopefully working on the plumbing drains next week.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on June 22, 2016, 07:57:38 AM
Pictures don't really do justice to how much dirt the town dropped off. 23 dump truck loads (edit: 35 loads now, more than in the picture). Two rows wide all the way from SE corner up to the the SW corner. Looks like sandy loam to me. One pile had a little hardpan in it probably from digging out a culvert.

It is hard to think what the odds are that right as I'm finishing up the foundation the town highway super asks my excavator if I want free dirt from the road they are redoing that we happen to live on. I think we are looking at $5-9k of top soil if you were to buy it and have it delivered.

Edit; Town has delivered 40 loads and offered to deliver roughly 40 more. I called my septic engineer who also works for the department of transportation. He said the shoulder material is really nice stuff and to use it for building up our leach field. He said take everything they want to drop off. Pretty awesome.


(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F7t1ciuZ.jpg&hash=5847df3fba64fa2e6457c82aed169432)
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on June 28, 2016, 01:10:15 PM
Ok a couple updates. Pretty much done the backfill. The inside was filled with stone which will not settle like filling with dirt would have done. The town has dropped off over 40 loads so far. My excavator said they are bringing another 40, so that will get graded when the leach field gets done.

I ran 2" thick XPS on the inside of the block down 4'. I wanted it on the inside so that there should be no risk of pests tunneling through it. I think it is virtually impossible to protect subgrade foam on the exterior of a structure. Worse, if they are tunneling through it, they are secretly headed towards your framing. I only get one shot at insulation. Hoping to go overboard on it throughout the whole build. I have it in my head to burn 1 - 1.5 cords a winter.

We also ran 4" corrugated drain pipe on top of the footing, and down the hill to daylight. I used the loader on my tractor to dig through the 4-5 feet of dirt the town dropped off. My excavator dumped stone on and around the drain pipe. Feel good about that.

The grading looks awesome so far. Our excavator really knows what he's doing. One of my 'dreams' with doing the slab is to be close to grade outside. Being able to step right out onto the ground instead of being 3-4-5 feet up in the air on the deck is something I really wanted to happen. That dirt is also going to be great material for an apple tree or two, and some hardy kiwis... well all kinds of stuff.


(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FXv9mw2M.jpg&hash=66772f4e6d68869124753b95798f2955)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FsgiO1Lf.jpg&hash=1d11d355984803a66bfc4b6693d861e3)

We also have the well line dug - the excavator ran a 2" poly sleeve up for us so that we can just feed the line through that. I am intent on installing the pump myself this weekend with a few helpers. Local plumbing supply quoted about $900 for a 3/4 hp franklin electric pump with poly line, pump wire, torque arrestor, pitless.. the whole works. All high quality parts, a little more expensive than Lowes but much higher quality. I don't want to be pulling that thing in the winter.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F6Mo8S9c.png&hash=ae74dc82fcd6847ef67b5845ddc0dd4d)
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Redoverfarm on June 28, 2016, 02:14:35 PM
Nathan I take it that you are going with standard floor joist from the presence of the J bolts.  Just wondering about your drain & water lines.   ???  Meaning the crawlspace will be filled and the need to preform maintenance on those will be limited.  Maybe I am missing something, overlooked in an earlier post or you have already discussed it.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on June 28, 2016, 02:52:58 PM
We are laying down XPS and then pouring a slab on that. The excavator is going to trench out where i am running drain lines tomorrow. The walls will have the sill plate built in with PT lumber.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Redoverfarm on June 28, 2016, 03:26:14 PM
We are laying down XPS and then pouring a slab on that. The excavator is going to trench out where i am running drain lines tomorrow. The walls will have the sill plate built in with PT lumber.

OK I remember the conversation now.  http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=14337.msg187216#msg187216

 
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on June 28, 2016, 03:47:33 PM
Yeah I ended up not doing that above grade stemwall for a bunch of reasons.

This article about aging masonry buildings helped convince me.
http://buildingscience.com/documents/building-science-insights/bsi-095-how-buildings-age

"If you donít do the water control and you insulate you are basically euthanizing your building."

I think a rain screen will perform better than that stemwall would have. And I need to be certain to have a drip edge that keeps water away from the 12" of exposed foundation.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on July 04, 2016, 02:33:15 PM
Dropped the well pump. Went down 200' and used a Franklin Electric 3/4hp pump. We should have good pressure. It was a relatively simple job and a good way to save $1500 - 2000. By using poly pipe it was not heavy.

Unless my math is wrong, 193' of 1" pipe should hold a little under 8 gallons of water. That is 65 pounds. I would guess that pump with wire and pipe is another 40 or so. So maybe 100-110 pounds if the pump ever needs to be pulled (excluding the T-tool). With someone to handle the pipe as it comes out, I am pretty confident I could yank that sucker out.

Also want to mention I was most concerned about drilling through 1/4 inch steel. I used my cordless drill with a 1 3/4" bi metal hole saw. I sprayed oil every 30 seconds or so and went slow. I had no issues and broke one tooth on the bit. The 4 amp battery still had 3 out of 4 bars. Was not a problem.

From the pump to the house we put the poly pipe and the UF wire in corrugated piping. We are 4' 8" below grade at the pump. Where the pipe enters the house on top of the footing we are only going to be 3' below grade. For the entire 50 foot run we put 2" of XPS that is about 16" wide on top of the piping. We should have no risk of the waterline freezing.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fei79NBn.jpg&hash=7cfa630a9c89348b03104c1a72ac2a21)


We started on the sub-slab drain plumbing today. We have it mostly sorted out. I kind of diagrammed things out on our plans. We decided to upsize the pipe almost everywhere. Also we are opting for the 'pure' PVC, and not foam core, since this is going below a slab and I hope to not need to jackhammer anything out...

We used masonry line blocks to run string to start lining things up. The only thing that has to be exactly right is the toilet stub out.

I have found "Plumbing" by Rex Cauldwell to be the best book I've used. "Plumbing a House" by Peter Hemp has some nice information on sub-slab plumbing like wrapping cardboard around the toilet stub out. Most of the books are a waste of time, telling you to pay plumber to do everything except the most mundane tasks. I find a lot of building books, in general, read like they were edited by a lawyer. Taunton Press (fine homebuilding) usually has good stuff.


(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FbqAyC3c.jpg&hash=119654179a3f32709e15f9ad459def63)
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Redoverfarm on July 04, 2016, 04:04:14 PM
Nathan you have two critical connections in concrete and the plumbing.  The toilet yes is one being that the flange only should protrude above the concrete.  Anything more and you will have to build up the floor or set the toilet upon a slight platform.  The second is the shower drain trap.  I would suggest that you form out an area below the floor for it to set in.  If you are using a compression shower drain fitting you will need to allow for that as well as a short piece of pipe to reach the trap.  A lot of precision there in elevation to make everything line up.  That why I suggest a formed out box to give you some wiggle room. 
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on July 04, 2016, 04:19:09 PM
Thanks for the continued input Redoverfarm. We are going to do a tiled shower on the first floor, so I am planning to build that up with mortar. It should give us a little wiggle room on the drain location as I will slope everything to it with a trowel.

My brother in law is a plumber (unfortunately lives 5 hours away) and suggested boxing out the shower drain if it was to be a tub as well.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on July 08, 2016, 04:44:06 AM
Plumbing is approved. Time to start throwing the stone back in and prep for slab which we should have poured next week. Can't wait to let the sawdust fly.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FdodnoIb.jpg&hash=a28dbd762c8c1a2b5c90c3d239fd8501)
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on July 08, 2016, 09:15:39 AM
My limited tile experience and knowledge says that the drain traps for shower and toilet should be packed with sand rather than gravel, then slab over that.  Is that a common thing or a bit of folk wisdom I picked up?
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on July 09, 2016, 03:21:45 AM
My main concern with the DMV plumbing is settlement. I made sure everything was at least a strong 1/4" slope. I taped a 1" wood block to my 4' level, and a .5" wood spacer to my 2 footer.

Also wanted to account for 'adjusting' the stub outs to plumb/correct location. I'm not concerned with stone crushing the PVC. That stuff is strong. The 4" is rated as well casing.

All that said, this was my first time doing any plumbing.  :)
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on July 11, 2016, 03:41:53 PM
This made for a long day. Leveling all that stone within a 1/4 - 1/2" was a real pain in the ass. The best thing to do was screed the stone with a 4' level.. not fun kneeling in stone, then getting up to shovel the pile out of the way.. rinse and repeat for about 12 hours.

Also I am doing 4" of XPS under the slab. We have about $1900 in foundation insulation. Walls will be getting 2" of exterior insulation, and the attic is getting R60. I am using zip wall as the air barrier. As long as I don't end up with any unfixable drafts, I hope the house should heat on around a cord of wood a winter. For ancillary heat I am going to put in a ductless minisplit. I have done some basic thermal performance calcs and am coming out with 16000BTU loss per hour at 68F interior and 0F exterior design temp.

A lot of people don't understand why we aren't building a basement, and this is one of the reasons.

Also forgot to mention I beveled the edge insulation at 45 degrees. Circular saw is the way to go on that.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FoMrv8L1.jpg&hash=acc180793b66b00faaee42742b4fc0fc)
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on July 15, 2016, 12:18:12 PM
Slab's poured. It looks really good. They put on some kind of a sealer that will degrade over the next 30 days to help with curing. I will keep putting water on it over the next week or two. We got some showers this afternoon and it brought the temperature down to around 70, which is great.

Put 3 #4 rebar going each way in the footings for the floor posts. It took about 10 yards of concrete to do the job.

Also forgot to mention we made a radon vent. Under the slab, bedded in the stone is 4' of perforated 4" pipe. We drilled holes in left over PVC. Then it T's up into a 3" pipe. This is cheap insurance against something that can cause lung cancer.

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Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Don_P on July 15, 2016, 05:00:32 PM
Always feels good to get out of the mud  :)
Your 10 yard comment brought the background of a phrase to mind. The capacity of a conventional concrete truck if slam full is "the whole nine yards". But... back in the real world, the truck can only run up these hills and keep its load with about 6 or 7 yards.

LOL, as soon as I posted that... I've heard another source of that phrase, back in the day a formal gown took "the whole nine yards"

They must have been of traditional build
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on July 16, 2016, 03:26:39 AM
Yeah it feels great to be done with the mud and stone. It's also a relief to have so much time to get the house dried in. We put a lot of money into this foundation but if something ever goes wrong I won't feel it was because we cut any corners.

I probably need to cut control joints in the concrete. The guy told me that 3/8 - 1/2 inch would be deep enough for a 4" slab. Seems like with all things masonry, everyone has their own way. The guy who did the slab said he'd wait till Monday so the saw doesn't pull any stones out of the slab - making the joint look messy.

The other thing I'm thinking about are the french doors - the east wall we decided to switch from a single door to another french door. We are definitely going to live directly on the slab for a few years, but if we ever put down a hardwood floor we are supposed to put down furring strips, then the flooring. This would interfere with the doors opening. We could always put tile where the doors open, I guess. I don't like the idea of framing the doors 2" or so up off the ground. The only other option I can think of is outswing doors. Not concerned with the mudroom, that will always be a (muddly) slab.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on July 24, 2016, 06:23:44 PM
Got the exterior first floor walls up. Only have phone pics right now, but framing is going well. Hopefully will have some more pics soon. Mostly following how Larry Haun lays everything out. I love that guy. Will plumb corners then straighten walls and put up the sheathing to hold everything in place.

The second floor deck has an LVL that runs the length of the building. I picked up some rough sawn hemlock 6x6 posts from an Amish saw mill that will support the LVL at the two corners of the the stairwell. It looks like I need to put in Simpson post bases. They make some concealed brackets that look decent. I thought that other option would be to just stick #4 rebar into the slab and drill a hole in the posts (slab is thickened and reinforced with rebar where the posts go), and sit it on there that way (with poly in between slab and post). I can't really find anything in the code on how this should be done. Of course Simpson says your entire house needs to be put together with their brackets, and that includes the kitchen sink. Anyone have opinions?

The other thing is that since the posts are true 6x6 the one piece Simpson post caps wouldn't fit up top either - also the LVL is going to be doubled up to 3" or 3.5".. can't remember how thick they are. It will be 34' with no joints over the posts. Joists will be attached with hangers so the LVL should be locked into place pretty well.

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Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Don_P on July 25, 2016, 02:51:58 AM
It never hurts to vertically tie everything down. At a certain point the walls would have to leave to uplift interior posts. At which point there are bigger fish to fry. I've also fabbed knife plates similar to the t-rex plates recently linked to in Chugiak Tinkerer's thread.
Look at the end grain of hemlock carefully for shake, separation between rings. Being a slowpoke it is pretty common for it to get soil borne bacterial infection that breaks down those layers... just one more check while grading that species. One of my logger friends called one day to ask if I needed any wooden culverts. Apparently he bought a stand of shakey hemlock  d* I do like the wood, just a check.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on July 25, 2016, 06:35:04 AM
Thanks Don. I will closely check for shake.

It's nice to know that if I anchor the posts down, those and the sill plate will still be there after the rest of the house flies away. :)

I have another question for anyone reading. The LVL is going in the floor deck, with 2x12s attached by hangers. Unfortunately the LVL is 11 7/8 and the joists are 11 1/4. A 5/8s difference. It seems like the thing to do is notch the double top plate 5/8 an inch to line up the LVL with the subfloor above. I'd also have to drop the two bathroom walls by 5/8 an inch. The living space would get trimmed out with hemlock to match the posts to hide the LVL.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on July 25, 2016, 08:32:43 AM
Thanks Don. I will closely check for shake.

It's nice to know that if I anchor the posts down, those and the sill plate will still be there after the rest of the house flies away. :)

I have another question for anyone reading. The LVL is going in the floor deck, with 2x12s attached by hangers. Unfortunately the LVL is 11 7/8 and the joists are 11 1/4. A 5/8s difference. It seems like the thing to do is notch the double top plate 5/8 an inch to line up the LVL with the subfloor above. I'd also have to drop the two bathroom walls by 5/8 an inch. The living space would get trimmed out with hemlock to match the posts to hide the LVL.

I may need more caffeine to get my brain on step, but I don't quite understand the situation.  You are hanging joists off the LVL, but they are aligned flush with the bottom of the LVL rather than the top.  Is that right?  If that is the case, why not raise the joists by 5/8 inch and have everything level?  The sub-floor would then go over everything, including the LVL.  Assuming the joists are resting on the first wall top plate, you could use a 2-1/8 by 3-1/2 for the second top plate to raise your joists by the needed 5/8 and flush them up on top with the LVL.  I'm only basing this on my very limited experience but I think the sub-floor being one continuous diaphragm would be a good thing, stiffening the structure much better than if there is a split down the middle.

Edit: Hehe, re-reading your post and I understand a little better.  Delayed caffeine reaction I guess.  I would do as you suggest and notch the top plate by 5/8 inch so that the LVL drops down to flush on top with the joists.  If that poses too many complications with the existing walls then running a strip of 5/8 plywood to raise the other top plate could work.  Or just use 11-7/8 rim board and have it match the LVL.  You'd have to hang the joists at the other end though.  Of all your options a notch seems the best.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Don_P on July 25, 2016, 05:32:55 PM
One more option, LVL's come in 11.25" as well, you can also rip an LVL (which you cannot do with solid sawn dimensional lumber) IF the size is then adequate. I have raised the lvl and dropped the joists as well. If preserving the entire floor diaphragm as a unit is critical, attaching blocking to the lvl and sheathing in each joist bay would provide the required edge blocking to do that.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: nailit69 on July 26, 2016, 04:58:10 AM
One more option, LVL's come in 11.25" as well, you can also rip an LVL (which you cannot do with solid sawn dimensional lumber) IF the size is then adequate. I have raised the lvl and dropped the joists as well. If preserving the entire floor diaphragm as a unit is critical, attaching blocking to the lvl and sheathing in each joist bay would provide the required edge blocking to do that.

I was going to suggest the same thing.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on July 26, 2016, 07:44:21 AM
Thanks for all the good suggestions. The lumber yard originally quoted an 11.25" LVL to go with the 2x12 joists. When I went to finalize the order they said 'oops we only stock 11 7/8.'

Materials is the same story over and over. All these articles and research about best practices and building methods but the materials are never available. It is kind of hilarious that the building science people will espouse the cost savings in having only a single top plate and then recommend rock wool exterior insulation and liquid flashing products. Only place I found exterior rock wool it was about 3x the cost of polyiso. Putting R-12 rock wool on the exterior of my house would probably cost more than paying someone to spray foam the whole house 5.5" thick. Liquid flashing is like $250-300 for a 5 gallon bucket. And you better order that stuff a few weeks in advance if you want to use it, cause no one stocks it.

Tyvek drainwrap is another one. Sales lady said it's not even worth quoting it because it's so expensive.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on July 31, 2016, 04:17:17 PM
Corners plumbed, walls straightened, sheathing up. About ready to start the second floor deck. I picked up some 5/8s advantech to raise the top plate to make the joists even with the LVLs. I wouldn't have minded a 1/8" gap on the 34' LVL, but I also have a tripled up 12' LVL going over the mudroom - and that will be the edge the floor deck in the bedroom. Don't want that to be goofy.

We used EDPM gaskets everywhere the zip wall does not butt up against another piece of zip wall as part of our air barrier strategy. It may have been overkill because I am thinking about using a peel n stick product (Carlisle CCW 705 w/ primer) to flash the bottom of the zip wall to the foundation. It just seems like a bad idea to leave the edge of the OSB exposed down there.

BTW we left the studs at a full 8'. It's going to be miserable to drywall but will but will look really nice to have an extra 5" of headroom downstairs.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fp2n8vkH.jpg&hash=5ec7e2d689ba89e22a1415d40495ddca)

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All our plumbing drain pipes were perfect. Not bad for our first time doing it.

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Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Don_P on August 01, 2016, 03:59:04 PM
You can get 54" sheets of drywall, or, wide baseboard. A 3 piece base with 1x8, base cap and base shoe was very common back in the day.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on August 04, 2016, 12:41:30 PM
Sometimes a little work looks like a lot, and a lot of work looks like a little.

I got both of those 36 foot LVLs up into position by myself. Was a lot of work and took some physics. I was able to use the loader to lift one end most of the way, but had to build scaffolding and flop 2x scraps over to hold the LVL as I lifted 1-2 feet at a time on each end.

Once they were up there and lying on their sides, in order to rotate the 250ish lb LVL up on to it's edge I clamped a 6 foot 2x scrap perpendicular to the beam and was able to easily rotate them onto their edges. Gotta love torque.

You can also see we have a tripled up LVL that spans the mudroom. That does rest on top of one of the bathroom walls, but that wall is not technically load bearing. Although I am confident that you could drive a dump truck across the slab considering it is resting on stone and then hardpan.

Also, thanks Don P for all the great advice you have given.

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Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Redoverfarm on August 04, 2016, 02:19:56 PM
It is amazing what you can accomplish when you work by yourself.  Just have to figure a little. ;)
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on August 04, 2016, 02:55:47 PM
Redover, it sure is. So satisfying to accomplish this kind of work.

Also what kind of levels do you guys use? I am about to buy a set of Stabila 196 which as far as I can tell are the best levels made.

https://www.amazon.com/Stabila-37816-48-Inch-16-Inch-Aluminum/dp/B0000A9918

I did pick up some made in USA levels but I think they suck. I think they have been ok for framing the first floor, but I don't really trust them. Larry Haun has a cool trick to make crappy levels work for plumbing walls, but it seems like a stupid thing to skimp on.

I've also got an older level - exact level co. made in New Jersey (something like that) aluminum level that belongs to my dad. That one seems way better and made me realize the ones I bought are junk.

The Stabila are supposed to be super accurate, and (from memory) I think they throw out 85% of their bubbles because they are so stringent on the quality. Also being aluminum they should be able to handle being dropped occasionally.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Redoverfarm on August 04, 2016, 03:55:31 PM
Maybe I am old fashion but I have two wooden 4' levels.  Both of which have brass edges.  One is a Mayes and not sure about he other one.  The Mayes is USA made and guaranteed for life.  Then again I have a 2' Stanley aluminum which has been dropped probably one too many times but like the old watch saying " Takes a lickin and keeps on tickin".  ;D I usually test it on top of my 4' level after a fall and seems to be ok.  I would say a good quality namebrand should suffice.  Just stay away from Plastic ones.

Here is a little link that may help you decide.

http://www.bestconsumerreviews.com/levels-reviews/
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Don_P on August 04, 2016, 04:10:33 PM
You're quite welcome, and you are doing a great job.
I've turned a whole lot of levels into rebar so I buy them at the building supply. I do buy good heavy ones and check them before buying, then whenever suspect.

I have two I've saved that are bent like skis... and they still read pretty good  :D
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on August 08, 2016, 11:11:31 AM
I bought a new box of 16d sinkers and they are total junk. The last box was made in Vietnam, this one in Malaysia. They were Grip-Rite from Lowes.

The old sinkers were about the 3.25" they were supposed to be and the new ones vary in size from 2 3/4 to 3 1/8. The first time I thumbed one out that was 2 3/4 I thought I accidentally mixed in an 8d. But, the new nails were covered in rust, so I went back to the box and quickly noticed the problem. Nail width was less too.

Nail on the left is Vietnam made, the nails on the right are a random group from the box.

I'm sure Grip-Rite senior management are patting themselves on the back over this cost saving measure.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F4uRAdHU.jpg&hash=04823a11b1a62ab81cafb66390a24c59)
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Redoverfarm on August 08, 2016, 12:15:41 PM
"Sometimes you get the bear and sometimes the bear gets you".  Definitely be making a trip back to Lowes.  Also would be sending an E-mail to Grip-Rite (customer support) and let them know.  Shoot they might even give your money back now that their cats out of the bag.   ;)
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on August 12, 2016, 12:03:36 PM
Yep, returned them and sent a message to Grip Rite. Haven't heard anything back. Staying away from their products from now on.

Floor deck is almost done now. It was a lot of work getting those 2x12s up there. I have a ton of big clamps and spreaders now, and man are they great for straightening out lumber. You can do it with wood blocks but it's such a pain you'll find yourself settling for a little less over time...

The Simpson hangers were a bear to nail in by hand - I was bending nails left and right because the LVL is just a lot more difficult to nail into than real wood. We needed that beam to be in the floor deck, so I have no regrets. If it was going in a basement I'd just let the beam show and run joists over top.

The advantech sheathing - including the tongue - was a hair under 4 ft so I had to add blocking to the one end of the floor. Thought that was kind of dumb..

Also I used DAP sub floor glue which is like a spray foam type product. That stuff was pretty miserable to work with. By the third can I had the hang of it but I found it more work than just using PL400 in a caulk gun. Supposedly contractors like that stuff though. If you use it be careful with the cap, and if you're not spraying it immediately put the plug in the hose or it will start to clog within 5 minutes.

We really love how the slab came out, leaving that as our finished floor with no stains or anything else on it.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FZJFkMfd.jpg&hash=12c5baebd73f0135aeb34fee964b6272)

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Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Redoverfarm on August 12, 2016, 01:35:49 PM
I believe when I used Advantech they recommended a polyurethane glue.  Pretty messy as well and the only thing to clean it off was Acetone.

I would at least seal the floor.  I didn't and everything that was spilled onto it stained it.  It's actually very porous despite it smooth looking appearance.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Don_P on August 12, 2016, 07:22:38 PM
This is probably not a big deal here but something to remember for others planning more than anything. Floor sheathing is about 3/8" undersized because of the T&G. The minimum ripped width of sheathing is 16" wide. Millions of homes have that 4" strip. The rim is the "boundary element" of the floor diaphragm. It is one edge of the wide thin beam that the floor creates. With that 4" strip that edge of the "beam" is essentially missing and the rim is not really well connected. I save the cutoffs and rips from sheathing and use them for stairs, gussets, etc.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on August 13, 2016, 02:30:20 AM
Thanks don. I was about 1.5 inches short. I added blocking to that edge of the rim so the 4 foot sheet could get nailed off at 6" increments. I just need to cut a 1.5 inch spacer for the second story walls to sit on.

I figured with the blocking it would be as strong as if I landed on the rim.

Also I measured the sheet from edge to tip of groove  could have sworn it was less than 4 ft including tongue. I didn't hammer the tongue in flush, left 1/8 gap. Probably a little more sometimes.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on August 13, 2016, 04:41:39 AM
I believe when I used Advantech they recommended a polyurethane glue.  Pretty messy as well and the only thing to clean it off was Acetone.

I would at least seal the floor.  I didn't and everything that was spilled onto it stained it.  It's actually very porous despite it smooth looking appearance.

I didn't actually look at what advantech recommended, probably should have but too late now. The foaming stuff is supposedly really strong. Last night I capped it and this morning it will barely come out from being clogged. Frustrating but we are basically done with it now.

We will definitely be living on the subfloor for at least several months so I will look for a sealer. Thanks.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on August 15, 2016, 11:17:49 AM
I have a new question, this time about wall bracing. The code is extremely complicated.

We are going to be installing an upstairs balcony that is cantilevered out around 4', and inset around 2'. I purposely made it possible to sheath 24" inches in from the corner (would rather it be 18"), because I wasn't sure if the code requires that all corners be braced under the CS-WSP (continuously sheathed wall structural panels)... of course next to an 80" vertical opening it looks like I need 32" wide panel to count as braced (no modifier factors applied).

The inset portion will be framed diagonally (pics below), and it kinda-sorta-seems like the diagonal portion of that wall counts towards the braced wall requirements. There are also 'simplified' methods (hah yeah right) that seem to imply that you take your total wall length, and based on geographic location, roof height, etc etc etc, you figure out how much total braced wall you need that is over a certain width. If I am right about that, then it's no big deal, there are plenty of wide sheathed sections on every wall in the house.

I know there is also 'portal bracing' that would require extending the header well beyond the trimmer and driving a ton of nails into it through the sheathing. Seems like that must be for squeezing out extra bracing on garage door walls that have very little bracing section to begin with.

I think I'm worried about nothing but just want to double check with you all in case I'm missing something.

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Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Don_P on August 15, 2016, 04:24:02 PM
I'll try to find more info but my knee jerk reaction is that neither the balcony or the 45 walls matter in the bracing scheme. the opening can be in the corner if you want, you need to run a drag strut, collector... uhhh top plate over to a braced wall section within X number of feet (12'? confirm). I think you are fine. That looks like a leaker.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on August 15, 2016, 04:47:28 PM
Thanks Don. Just got kind of lost in that bracing section so thought I'd throw the question out there.

Balcony is going to be the most difficult detail on the house. It will get positive drainage, back dam, peel n stick and other flashing.

http://buildingscience.com/documents/building-science-insights/bsi-093-all-decked-out

This balcony should allow us to warmly sit outside on frigid, sunny, winter days. I think that is worth the extra effort.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on August 18, 2016, 11:05:31 AM
Put together most of the windows for the second floor. Will have to take some pics soon. Probably won't get a chance to raise the walls till next week.


Thinking about roof framing. Don, I want to do what you showed in this post for my gable overhangs.

http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=10283.0

Code only specifies up to a 1' overhang.. I was planning on 2'.. actually have enough metal for 2' 8" i think. Could be talked down to 1' 6" or so but man I want more protection than 1', will be less than that with rain screen, 2" insulation and then siding.

We are in 50psf snow load with the typical wind design speeds. Going either 9-12 or 10-12 with standing seam panels, likely no exposed fasteners. Would require some really strange conditions for snow to not quickly fall off the roof. Despite the rest of the house being 24" OC the rafters are going to be 16" OC 2x10s. I did that to save some weight while working alone. That does mean if I went to 2' I'd only have 16" inboard and then 24" outboard. That seems like it breaks a few cantilever rules.

Also noticed that the 2' overhang the code allows at the eaves is along the rafter, not horizontal from the wall. That's a weird one to me. Lower slope roofs can have more overhang even though they're more susceptible to uplift.

Don would you talk me out of an overhang that big or suggest any extra metal strapping to hold things together?
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on August 18, 2016, 02:49:10 PM
I've also been planning on 24" rake overhang for my build.  I had assumed since 24" eave overhang was OK that it would apply for the gable end too.  Just goes to show how essential it is to read the entirety of the relevant code documents.  To go beyond the prescribed overhang you'll probably need an engineer to sign off (assuming you are under a jurisdictional authority).  Seems like time to bust out the Toolbox calculator and look at cantilevered beams.

For the IRC, which I am going by, the 24" for eave overhang is measured from horizontal, not slope distance.  Your code may be the same, it's worth double-checking.

Edit: With regards to the 16" rafter spacing, can you drop the first rafter down and run your outlookers over it to the next rafter, giving you 32" inboard?
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on August 18, 2016, 04:01:47 PM
Aside from asthetics there is no better way to keep the rain away. More than a few times, I've felt some of the prescriptive codes make a building less durable or safe.

Today I was framing up the 3x5 egress bedroom windows, and from memory I think the bottom cripple is 18.5". Less than 2' off the floor to the bottom of the window. That seems way more likely to be dangerous to a child than a window that doesn't meet egress requirements. Honestly someone that can't fit through a 3x4 window is going to reach terminal velocity before they hit the ground anyway.

I was thinking another way to reinforce the lookout would be to install an upside down joist hanger on the inboard side. Could even double up the rafter so that you could use common 10d nails.

Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: jsahara24 on August 18, 2016, 04:31:27 PM
We are in 50psf snow load with the typical wind design speeds. Going either 9-12 or 10-12 with standing seam panels, likely no exposed fasteners. Would require some really strange conditions for snow to not quickly fall off the roof.

I've been following your thread and you've done a great job!  In regards to your comment above, I see you're from upstate NY, I have a cabin in the tug hill area and two winters ago it didn't go above freezing for the entire month of February and the snow piled up on the roof.  I had about 3' or more compressed snow on the roof and it didn't shed it until it warmed up in early march.   I have a metal roof with exposed screws, 9:12 pitch, 2' overhang on the eave and 18" on the gable.  This isn't normal, but you never know. 

Good luck on the build, keep the pictures coming!
Jason
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on August 18, 2016, 04:38:03 PM

For the IRC, which I am going by, the 24" for eave overhang is measured from horizontal, not slope distance.  Your code may be the same, it's worth double-checking.

You are right about the 24" on the eave measured horizontally (from 804.3.2.1.1). But this diagram from 802.7.1.1 is either drawn wrong or the code is just contradicting itself.

edit; ive been reading this some more and I think the 12" rake overhang from 804.3.2.1.1 is actually for steel framing. Sometimes I search pages for key words because the sections are so big. maybe for nominal lumber the permitted cantilever is 24" at the rake too.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcodes.iccsafe.org%2Fapp%2Fbook%2Fcontent%2F2015-I-Codes%2FNY%2F2015%2520IRC%2520HTML%2FImages%2FCh_8_Fig_R802_7_1_1.jpg&hash=51dd47fd0f4059c4d2144896cedc9e15)
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on August 18, 2016, 04:40:48 PM
I've been following your thread and you've done a great job!  In regards to your comment above, I see you're from upstate NY, I have a cabin in the tug hill area and two winters ago it didn't go above freezing for the entire month of February and the snow piled up on the roof.  I had about 3' or more compressed snow on the roof and it didn't shed it until it warmed up in early march.   I have a metal roof with exposed screws, 9:12 pitch, 2' overhang on the eave and 18" on the gable.  This isn't normal, but you never know. 

Good luck on the build, keep the pictures coming!
Jason

Thanks Jason I appreciate it. That winter I remember some areas the snow drifts were taller than my truck. We get a little lake effect down in Chenango but it is nothing like up your way. Even Hamilton gets a lot more snow than us. I am ready for some cooler weather, the heat and humidity this summer has really started slow me down. It is hard to work a full day.

Is your gable framed the way Don suggested? You make a good point, whatever I do I should not expect the snow to shed itself off.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Don_P on August 18, 2016, 06:21:44 PM
Whoa, 5 replies while I was noodling around, well, one more  ;D

If you have gutters or vents, etc in the lower portion of the roof sliding snow can be an issue. Very often I hear the argument that the roof will self clear, then they realize they need to keep the snow up there, so think that through. Strange conditions only need to happen once, I've had 3' of snow stick to one of mine at 12/12 with exposed screws.

For the rake overhang check the WFCM pg 65 table 2.2C. It is an uplift table but is for 2'.
 I'd skip a rafter and go 2 bays inboard. You can furr down the underside if it is cathedral. Pg 174&175, same tables in the prescriptive section, again set up for 2' rake overhangs. Can you give me a cite for the 1', I don't recall that.

At the eaves... I have serious problems with the entirety of IRC 802.7 and did my best. AWC's engineer and I went a couple of rounds starting in person and continuing by email before he shucked me off on an intern. An engineering professor did not disagree with me. This is a bearing similar to the cut end of a stud, not a notch and the 2' limit is arbitrary. They have a thinking problem IMO and have yet to explain their thinking adequately. Now that I've vented  ::), the inspector has to follow the rules. Work around, bobtail rafters with scabbed on cantilevered tails, 2/3 in 1/3 out... clear it with inspections first but I've done this as an engineered detail several times when exceeding stock lengths. If you box out a level soffit to form a rigid triangle their argument starts to become absurd. I am not your inspector though, clear anything that is outside of prescriptive.

Don't forget to block the seams on your wall sheathing before you zip tape. I've been blocking it seems like forever, sheathing, wainscot throughout needed it and for grab and towel bars in the baths. I need to talk to the cabinetmaker about his needs as well. I love blocking  :P 
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Redoverfarm on August 19, 2016, 02:32:37 AM
Nathan if you go with exposed fasteners on your metal might I suggest what I used on mine.  They are pan head with the torx inset in the head.  They are less prone to collect what ever needs to slide off the roof like hex headed screws.  They come in colors the same as regular fasteners.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi220.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fdd161%2Fredoverfarm%2Fhightop%2F100_4792-1.jpg&hash=1e563eda1f2680489eff461578a1e32c) (http://s220.photobucket.com/user/redoverfarm/media/hightop/100_4792-1.jpg.html)

In addition I used a ice/snow guard ( Witches Hat )to prevent the gutter from being torn off by sliding snow.  It still allows melting snow and water to exit the roof. 

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi220.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fdd161%2Fredoverfarm%2Fhightop%2F100_4790-1.jpg&hash=e94efa001ad27e8f886f06b635c86a65) (http://s220.photobucket.com/user/redoverfarm/media/hightop/100_4790-1.jpg.html)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi220.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fdd161%2Fredoverfarm%2Fhightop%2F100_4799-1.jpg&hash=e218dec5ce83687300559a5a227eb55a) (http://s220.photobucket.com/user/redoverfarm/media/hightop/100_4799-1.jpg.html)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi220.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fdd161%2Fredoverfarm%2Fhightop%2F100_4797-1.jpg&hash=06f5f5f7994725f0b1d4e5c94007c392) (http://s220.photobucket.com/user/redoverfarm/media/hightop/100_4797-1.jpg.html)
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on August 19, 2016, 02:42:03 AM
Thanks for the great info Don. I was wrong about the 12" rake - I was accidentally looking at the steel framing section. It looks like the code book is pretty silent on rake overhang for lumber. The codes have been getting the best of me on some of these details lately.

Relieved to see provisions for a 2' rake overhang. (in WFCM manual, which is approved by code in section 3 for anyone reading)

If my brain is working right this time, it looks like they're saying the max overhang length of the outlooker is half the total outlooker length. So If I want to overhang 24" my 16" OC rafters get in the way a little bit. If I step the first one back 24" I am still within the code because the 2x10s rafters actually are rated to span 11' 3" @ 24" OC. I could still double that rafter up to give it a little extra strength.

Don If I skip the first rafter and span 32" inboard are there code provisions for this? Hard to imagine anything wrong with that if I double up the rafter. Also seems like this follows cantilever rules better.

Also thanks for the reminder on blocking all the gaps in the sheathing. I don't think I have seen that in the code either. I know that it's a big deal in California to do that, but thought out east we didnt need to block everything.

I am glad I am doing a relatively simple build. It is funny that switching from 24 OC rafters to 16 OC rafters has implications on overhangs. You just don't know what you don't know. Although I do know there is a lot I don't know.  ;D
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on August 19, 2016, 02:47:02 AM
Nathan if you go with exposed fasteners on your metal might I suggest what I used on mine.  They are pan head with the torx inset in the head.  They are less prone to collect what ever needs to slide off the roof like hex headed screws.  They come in colors the same as regular fasteners.


Thanks Red. Since I ordered a standing seam roof, they come in 16" sections. One side gets pancake screws, and then the other side snaps in overtop - leaving nothing exposed. When I ordered the roof, I thought I was going to have exposed fasteners at the eave edge and at the rakes. But, I was just looking at the order the other day, and it looks like they are sending me the stuff to do it with no exposed fasteners. THis means the gable trim gets pop rivets, and the panels at the eaves actually have the bottom 1" of the panel bent 180 degrees and tucked underneath a flange.

I like those screws you showed more than the hex screws (used on my shed). Do they have a rubber washer on them?

Side note, I was so surprised by how inexpensive the roof was. this is for the 34x20 + 8x12 mudroom. The quote for the standard panels was $1800 and for standing seam we paid around $2800. That includes all the trim and even the fasteners. ABC roof has a branch in Utica.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Redoverfarm on August 19, 2016, 03:05:02 AM

I like those screws you showed more than the hex screws (used on my shed). Do they have a rubber washer on them?


Yes they are identical in thread and gasket like hex head.  They have proved themselves being close to the woods with pine needles and leaves wanting to hang up.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Don_P on August 20, 2016, 03:00:47 AM
Data dump  :D ( you know, the entire codebook was about the size of the wall bracing section when I started. I can't imagine trying to grasp it coming into it now. Large sections of it have slipped from my ken. I'm not sure the level of detail has helped)

Quote
If I skip the first rafter and span 32" inboard are there code provisions for this? Hard to imagine anything wrong with that if I double up the rafter. Also seems like this follows cantilever rules better.
Nothing called out that I can recall, but if you space wider than 24 you're off the span tables, a double there would get you back to the intent.

 R602.10.3
Quote
Only braced wall panels parallel to the braced wall line shall contribute toward the required length of bracing of that braced wall line. Braced wall panels along an angled wall meeting the minimum length requirements of Tables R602.10.5 and R602.10.5.2 shall be permitted to contribute its projected length toward the minimum required length of bracing for the braced wall line as shown in Figure R602.10.1.4. Any braced wall panel on an angled wall at the end of a braced wall line shall contribute its projected length for only one of the braced wall lines at the projected corner

See R602.10.7 case 5 for braced wall end conditions for the balcony... I called out 12' the other day, it's 10'

I'm looking for blocking requirements in the footnotes, not finding it, I think technically you are correct, it is not required... its a good idea, greatly improves shear and keeps the edges flat over the long haul. Aside, do not glue wall sheathing. It reduces ductility and transfers too much lateral to other connections. The prohibition is for seismic but generally not a good idea.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: jsahara24 on August 22, 2016, 02:39:05 PM
Thanks Jason I appreciate it. That winter I remember some areas the snow drifts were taller than my truck. We get a little lake effect down in Chenango but it is nothing like up your way. Even Hamilton gets a lot more snow than us. I am ready for some cooler weather, the heat and humidity this summer has really started slow me down. It is hard to work a full day.

Is your gable framed the way Don suggested? You make a good point, whatever I do I should not expect the snow to shed itself off.

I framed my gable with purlins every 2' up the roof hanging over 18".  then I tied in my fascia board and put short 2x8s every 16" between the last rafter and the fly rafter.   Has been holding up the last 3 winters.   

I've never seem so much snow as up in the tug hill area, deepest I've had it was abiut 42"-48" without drifts.  Think you gotta head out west to compete.   Chenango seems to have some pretty good elevation which lets you hold onto your snow. 

The heat this year ia killing me, I live in PA so its even worse down here.   Its bad when u need AC up at the cabin, at home I think my ac unit finally got a break for the first time since mid July today. 
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on August 23, 2016, 02:02:06 PM
Thanks Jason. Our property is at 1850ft. Pretty high for the east coast.

And thanks again don. I am building a better house because of all the great input I am getting.

On wife phone so don't want to type too much. Got the north and south walls up. The triple 2x12 over 9 foot header was a doozy. We used 2x4s screwed in and hanging out the wall with a 2x12 screwed on about 6 feet out from the wall as a counter balance. Only way wife and I could lift it without buying a wall jack or something. Went up just fine with the counterbalance.

Here's what it looked like after raising the wall.
(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FiZuvhQA.jpg&hash=5eae44ba66a2d9dd998bee4e8a49be09)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fxl7pQOn.jpg&hash=fdbb14ff527b51b020b3ae102a6577a6)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FchGUoIg.jpg&hash=8cead78b75358dd49f0f88fa459125aa)

Want to make a joke about the ultra safe egress window that a toddler could easily fall out of. But seriously. Lots of dumb codes, this might be the dumbest yet. Rough sills 20 inches off the subfloor. If Jabba is a guest during a fire were in luck.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F3JfVSVL.jpg&hash=616f9a496b95aa77f040860283c76017)




Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Don_P on August 24, 2016, 03:24:50 AM
You're quite welcome, and thanks. I was on a car forum looking for advice the other day and one mechanic's signature line said "believe it or not I'm trying to help you", had to chuckle.

Remember if you put in a guard on a window it should be easy to clear from the outside coming in and from the inside coming out. Our guys can clear but it isn't always them first. We used to talk about the intent more than the letter, but we used to build for a different crowd.

 The low header?
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on August 24, 2016, 03:56:23 AM
Stairwell window. Landing is a little under 5 ft below. Code said at least 36''. Wanted to be able to see that window while sitting downstairs.

Also wanted to ask specifically for blocking for sheathing edges could I use 2x4? Thinking about thermal bridging
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Don_P on August 24, 2016, 05:30:04 PM
I use 2x4's flatways against the sheathing. The 2x dimension makes for easier nailing through the studs or toenailing from block to stud. Functionally a 1x would do the job if you can figure out how to hold it in place while getting the nails from sheathing into the blocking. I usually put 3 nails per bay from each sheet edge into the block, 6 nails in each bay total, center then halfway each side of center.

A friend (who co'ed a 2 year major remodel today woohoo) and I were talking about that this past week. We were both working on old 2x4 frames doing blocking for sheathing then blocking for interior wainscoting. I ended up with one wall in a bedroom that only has 1/2" of insulation space between blocks  :P. The sprayfoamers will never get that filled and it isn't good to begin with. I'll catch those with can foam before they come in but I'll have a strip of about R5 on that wall. When I started I could see through that wall in places though so it is an improvement over what was there.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on August 29, 2016, 01:25:27 PM
Glad I asked about the blocking because it's going to make it go a lot faster.


Decided to jump straight to the roof while the weather is good. Had some help getting the joists into place, then the wife and I set the ridge board and put up a few rafters today.

I was going to do a 9 12 but man as soon as I saw how high I was going to have raise the ridge I chickened out. We are doing a 7 12.. and no small part is because the bottom of the ridge is about 4' 10" above the attic joists. I built a shed last fall with a 9 12 and I couldn't walk on it because it was so steep. Will always have a harness on, but I am thinking I'll actually be able to stand on a 7 12. We'll find out over the next few weeks.

At the lower height raising the ridge was a breeze. We slid one end into a saddle, raised the other end into an 'open saddle' and then screwed on a piece to lock the ridge in place.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FQskAsXS.jpg&hash=2d422aee1f24a6256f7cdc67d722e2ba)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FDBhMg2K.jpg&hash=253f4551acad7cff50315f2c1997483a)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FCq3f0tB.jpg&hash=8f1958bb156f7df28672031d7685ead8)

About 2 weeks ago we saw a monarch cocoon on our downstairs ceiling. This weekend we saw it before it flew away. Really awesome. Not sure I'd say we have a lot of monarchs, but we see at least one every day. I think prior to having this land I hadn't seen one in years.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FZN1WDQR.jpg&hash=ad55336da7ea11a153342e565ed7abf2)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FkcGVet3.jpg&hash=d07c9fb3abfca4da5a2a2af393be3b3b)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FhsHZLge.jpg&hash=7d893ba232cad40eb3992b5d0639fefd)

When I was a kid all I saw were monarchs. Not too many anymore. We'll wait till they're gone before we bush hog the fields.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Don_P on August 29, 2016, 03:21:30 PM
My wife's comment was "whoa that's not a milkweed, who says they're picky  :D"
I consider an 8/12 about the max to walk on, but if you get going you sure aren't going to stop on it. The conditions of the moment determine traction, yesterday or an hour ago doesn't matter. I've stuck to a 10/12 just fine and slid down it minutes later after 3 drops hit it. I was drifting on wet galvy tin on a 3/12 porch this morning. By 9 it was a sidewalk and by 2 it just didn't matter, I was a crispy critter and came down to work on other stuff. It's looking good. Be safe out there.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on August 30, 2016, 06:01:06 AM
Starting to think about the mudroom roof. Before doing this roof I am probably going to use it as a platform to get sheathing up to the gable roof, so it's still a ways off.

The mudroom will get a shed roof that butts up to the second floor wall. This would require a ledger board that supports half of the roof load, unless I'm mistaken. The tripled LVL was sized to take half the load of the shed roof, so we should be good there.

What is the best way to attach the ledger to the studs? Or is there an even more direct way of adding studs into the current stud bays to directly bear down onto the LVL? That seems better than relying on lag bolts, but I haven't found a whole lot of information on this. Any recommended reading?
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on August 30, 2016, 02:00:57 PM
Your inspector might treat that like an exterior deck attached to the wall, which as I understand things have recently been subject to a lot more stringent requirements for attaching to the wall.  The 2015 IRC has exterior decks in Section R507 (http://codes.iccsafe.org/app/book/content/2015-I-Codes/2015%20IRC%20HTML/Chapter%205.html), although it assumes the deck is at floor level and you are attaching the ledger to a rim joist.  I think I would go with Ledgerloks or similar over lag screws, at least two per stud.  Multiply the shear capacity of each screw by the number of screws and it should exceed the design load for the ledger.

Did you take into account the lateral load the shed roof will be putting on that wall?  You might want to throw some sister studs in there to stiffen the wall.  Would also give you some additional anchor points for the ledger board.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Don_P on August 31, 2016, 01:11:33 AM
Sorry to be slow, I was working on restocking a cane mill, with a 6' black snake up in the rafters watching us work half the night  :D

It isn't defined in the code that I know of but we usually ledgerlock a ledger over the sheathing into the studs or blocking in the wall. If the loads are looking worse I'll skip the ledger, punch through the sheathing alongside the studs and nail the rafters to the studs then fit cripple studs under the rafter down to the plate. I guess my breakline is up to about an 8' span I'll ledger, if it's longer I'll find a stronger way to support it... that is armchair engineering, give 'em time I'm sure it'll get a paragraph one day. Think about sliding snow impacts from above. I don't really see that much lateral, the main loads are vertical the way I'm seeing it. Do run ledgerlocks high and low no closer than 2" to an edge. If the ledger connections are high only it can split the ledger and drop the assembly. When you punch through the wall, air sealing can be an issue if it is a vented assembly, be neat and caulk the penetrations.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on August 31, 2016, 05:22:48 AM
Thanks both of you.

Don I grew up in Maryland right by the Appalachian trail.. I don't miss the black snakes. They are aggressive compared to the milk snakes and garter snakes we have on our property. Your signature should have a tip jar or something, the information you provide is invaluable.

The span is going to be 7' 6.5". I think I was on the right track with cripple studs basically creating a deep beam. If I go that route caulking the exterior rafter penetration and then spray foaming from the interior would make me feel pretty good.

Both attics will be ventilated.. leaning toward gable vents with a continuous soffit vent to create positive pressure which is what Joe Lstiburek says is best.


Completely separate topic - I used regular nails to attach the PT sill to the studs and didn't know until just now that the new chemicals they use may corrode the nails over time. Looks like I need to toenail the right nails in place all the way around the first floor.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Don_P on August 31, 2016, 09:57:21 AM
Bummer, yes, easy enough to renail now. That probably isn't an issue since the plates are dry service and current ACQ isn't the same as the first generation stuff which was eating metal like crazy. Still easy enough to be safe.

I keep the door open in the shop in summer and the bat population was exploding in there, so much for wishing for a control... or, be careful what you wish for  ::). There are quite a few in the sawshed, we kind of have an agreement worked out. I like them there as mousers but they can't be startling me while I'm sawing.

Tip jar is cool, send it to John  ;)
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on September 05, 2016, 02:35:20 PM
Worked hard this week. Just about time to run the ladder framing out for the overhang. Went with Don's recommendation of going in 32" for the cantilever. Those rafters will be doubled once I through nail the ladders into place.

In the center third of the house one rafter is 24" OC (still well well well within snow load w/ 2x10 #1 SYP) so that we have some wiggle room running the stove pipe straight up from our wood cookstove.

I did a lot of this work alone, but my wife was just a huge help over the long weekend. Only reason those rake walls are done because I could call measurements down while I sat on my butt and nailed.

"Working Alone" is a great book, I used his method to easily set rafters into place alone. They were not light, many of them well soaked after sitting out for the last month+. It was pretty hands free once in place. Sometimes you gotta walk the joists, lift the rafter, and beat on the block to get things as close as possible. After moving thousands of pounds of lumber, I'm pretty sure there's no such thing as 'just right', but I got everything pretty dang close.

Rake walls are 2x4 @ 16" OC. A few reasons, one I could put a an extra ceiling joist right on the top plate and then screw down some temporary OSB as a work surface, two it is easier to wrestle 2x4s straight and a lot easier to lift into place, and three we had extra 16 footers.

Oh and I left 24" in the center for the gable vents because I'm not sure what we're putting there yet. Didn't want to have to tear anything out if we end up with something wide.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FF7aje7w.jpg&hash=14b5ff3a0b3345ea055ee323c6e3c82d)

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(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FVlPCEPH.jpg&hash=db260c5a4b62e029df5813a991ce2093)

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Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Don_P on September 05, 2016, 05:18:48 PM
While you were up there calling down measurements, we call that "grab a perch and holler". It can be used as a directive, as in "I'll cut you climb", or as an insult if someone is being lazy "well just grab a perch and holler"  :D
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on September 08, 2016, 07:32:24 AM
A lot of the overhangs are framed out, but was ripping some wood today and my circular saw died. I have those M18 corldess Milwaukee tools, they are China junk. My cordless angle grinder also died after probably 30min - 1 hour of use.

I need to buy a new circular saw, I would take any first world country, but it seems like everything is made from slave labor now. Wish I had time to find an old USA saw that was just used by a homeowner.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on September 08, 2016, 08:08:06 AM
Probably plenty of old cordless tools that qualify and you could find with a little patience and perseverance.  The big question is what condition would the batteries be in?  Old NiCad batteries can have an amazing life span if treated well.  Could an old Makita or Dewalt be retro-fitted with modern battery packs?  Rhetorical question, I guess.  I don't have the answer.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Don_P on September 08, 2016, 10:22:23 AM
I've not run cordless saws, if you go corded I use the Makita's, good power to weight, price, etc. Switch failure is the most common problem.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Redoverfarm on September 08, 2016, 12:18:05 PM
I've not run cordless saws, if you go corded I use the Makita's, good power to weight, price, etc. Switch failure is the most common problem.

I second the Makita. 
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on September 08, 2016, 12:29:15 PM
Thanks everyone. It was just frustrating at the time because it pretty much burned the day.

I bought a 6.5" cordless Milwaukee and already sent the other saw out for warranty.. should be back next week. So I'll have two now and you know "two is one and one is none."

Still have my neighbors generator so I could have gone over to corded, but I'd need a good extension cord and it is really nice to not bother with a cord while up high.

I also have a lot of money in all these lithium batteries...

I did take a peak at the cheaper corded saws and yikes.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: pmichelsen on September 08, 2016, 02:55:24 PM
Corded I run a worm drive Skilsaw and cordless I run the Milwaukee that just crapped out on you. In the 10 years I've been running the Milwaukee, I've never had issue. One tip is to run a thin kirf blade, seems to make the batteries last a little longer.

Sorry yours didn't last, nothing more frustrating than having an essential tool like that crap out in the middle of a job.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on September 11, 2016, 08:14:43 AM
The 6.5" cordless circular saw is getting the job done. It is not a brushless motor and is not as strong as the 7.25" saw that broke. Only really noticeable when ripping 2x stock to width. The other saw should be back by the end of this week. Also I find Diablo blades to be head and shoulders above the rest. I had to use some Lowes carbide tip for a few days and they were awful. Diablo blades are still made in Italy.

Waiting for paint to dry on the fly rafters and fascia. All sides primed and painted.

I'm planning to add a 'dummy' rafter tail once I have the fascia installed, otherwise just about ready to start sheathing. The plan is to lift sheathing through the stairwell opening, and then up to the roof where I have the 24" opening. I can build some staging up there so I can rest panels on the roof and slide into place.

I want to buy an aluminum pic/plank/staging with a couple ladder jacks as a 1 person movable scaffold. Lowes and homedepot both have a 14" x 16' 500lb plank for around $250, but it would take a month to ship. The only thing they have in store is 1 person 8-13' telescoping. Haven't had any luck on craigslist either.

Anyone have any other suggestions? I don't think pipe scaffolding is a good option for me. It would be hard to set up alone and seems very expensive.

Also our stove pipe arrived with flashing kit. I'm going to install that as soon as enough sheathing is in place to do it - but I should be able to stand on attic joists while working on it.

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Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Don_P on September 11, 2016, 04:04:16 PM
It's looking very good. I can actually one man pipe scaffold easier than ladder jacks and trying to get my 16' walkboard up on that solo. Don't care for telescoping boards. I was 5 bucks up on the back of the house recently and will need to build a double tower 4 bucks high on the front this week and drag the 16' up between them. But from that stable tower it isn't too hard solo with a piece of rope to bring the board over. With ladder jacks another person carrying up their end of the walkboard is just about necessary. The ladder jacks are faster and easier to move around though. I still have 6 or 7 sets of pump jacks but rarely use them, they are another way to go... just about need to have 2 people or rigging gets slow.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on September 12, 2016, 04:03:49 AM
That's good to know on the scaffold. I figured I could lean one end of the plank on a ladder jack and then walk the other end up.

I still probably have somewhere around 2-3 weeks on the roof (hopefully), then it's going to be wall sheathing, windows, exterior insulation and siding. I am not doing all that window trim without something to stand on.

The siding itself will be white pine, semi transparent stain covering all sides and cuts.

6" pine lap is like .44 cents a foot. I asked about cedar and it was over triple the price  [shocked] Can't be spending like 8 grand on siding.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Redoverfarm on September 12, 2016, 04:15:05 AM
It's looking very good. I can actually one man pipe scaffold easier than ladder jacks and trying to get my 16' walkboard up on that solo. Don't care for telescoping boards. I was 5 bucks up on the back of the house recently and will need to build a double tower 4 bucks high on the front this week and drag the 16' up between them. But from that stable tower it isn't too hard solo with a piece of rope to bring the board over. With ladder jacks another person carrying up their end of the walkboard is just about necessary. The ladder jacks are faster and easier to move around though. I still have 6 or 7 sets of pump jacks but rarely use them, they are another way to go... just about need to have 2 people or rigging gets slow.

I still like scaffolding.   Yes a little harder to set up with one person but the added stability and mobility is worth the time.  I only have two walk boards but I try to set the two sections of scaffolding close enough to reach from one to the other.  All in all by moving laterally I get 18' of work surface.  I can usually find some additional 2X material to span the scaffolding which acts as staging while moving the sections to the top and eventually as part of the work platform. 
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on September 12, 2016, 02:28:45 PM
Good to know.

Today was frustrating.. we were told by the salesperson and when we called Cabot that we should prime before using the solid oil based stain.

The dried paint peels off from a light fingernail scratch. Said forget it and cut some more rafters and put em up there. This set us back several days. Wife stained them everywhere after they were installed, except where the lookouts are attached. After the salesman sold it to us, wife noticed it said something about not using oil based stain, but when we called Cabot the lady said the label is confusing but solid oil stains should still be primed. Obviously that is incorrect.

When this stuff happens it's not even about the money, it's about the lost time.



Then on a completely other note I think our Subaru is dead. I hate that car. The awd is nice but i swear it's one thing after another with those cars. Need to get a Ford.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FtVLZAqK.jpg&hash=a85273d4f67d94bcacc56eb93a6a46fc)

my life, a series of clamps and jigs. two wooden jigs made from scrap, clamped to the outlookers, then two c clamps as handles on the rafter, drop the rafter into the jigs, the clamps keep the rafter from sliding onto the ground. competely hands free. I would prefer to do it this way even if I had helpers, I really hate rushing because I'm worried someone's strength could fail.

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wife taking care of business
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Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: azgreg on September 12, 2016, 03:13:12 PM
That's a great shot.  ;D
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: GaryT on September 12, 2016, 04:46:31 PM
I'd say you are a lucky man.
Gary
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Don_P on September 13, 2016, 01:49:31 AM
Wow, agreed. That is better than anything posed and painted by the dutch masters  [cool]

Finishes... the bane of my existence, I had to resand a hardwood floor after following the salespersons advice. The manager was in real danger, over a can of finish and a few lost days. One of life's lessons, not a pretty moment. Over pine, if you have carpenter bees, the finish needs to be tougher than they can bite through or they will bore and nest.

When I have to lean a walkboard on a ladder jack and lift the other end it is easy to shove the unmanned ladder. It needs to be lashed well or have a body on it, the ladder jack will rotate the ladder off of a couple of nails and it is easy to get into trouble. My wife can carry up her end but it is not good, lifting the plank around and over the jack requires good strength and control, a dropped plank between ladders would not be good. If you go that route just stuff to think through.

I've recently had to tear down the top of one Honda CRV and replace a burned valve, adjust the valves on the other and since I got good did the valves for one of the ladies down at the country store, all had tightened an exhaust or several and were ready to burn, a very expensive repair in a shop.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on September 13, 2016, 05:32:40 AM
Yes the wife has been just an awesome partner in all of this.

I really didn't think about carpenter bees, was more concerned about peeling paint in a few years. In that regard would very much prefer fading of oil stain over the peeling of acrylic.

Ok noted on the ladder scaffold.

This place on craigslist is selling used scaffold for around $100 a set. I could stomach buying 4 of them. The eave is around 20 ft above grade all the way around the house.

http://binghamton.craigslist.org/tld/5763384116.html

Worst part with the car is diagnosing the problem. And I just don't have time for it right now. I saw oil leaking into the spark plug tubes so I changed valve cover gaskets and thought that fixed it, but nope.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Redoverfarm on September 13, 2016, 05:43:49 AM
Good buy but that is what is referred to as Mason scaffolding.  Not the most friendly when you need to adjust the wallboard.  Only has one position and that is the top.  Regular has intermediate height locations.  If it were me I would keep looking.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on September 13, 2016, 06:03:39 AM
Red is that the 'ladder' scaffolding? he has that too I think.

Ladder Frames:
- 5'w x 2'h - $75/set
- 5'w x 3'h - $85/set
- 5'w x 4 1/2'h - $105/set
- 5'w x 5'h - $115/ set
- 5'w x 6'4"h - $115 - $125/ set


Total novice with scaffold obviously.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Redoverfarm on September 13, 2016, 06:27:16 AM
Not sure of the exact terminology but on each piece you have 1/2 is open and 1/2 has a ladder configuration.  Probably Google and get what I am referring to.  Sorry I am on iPhone and it is a learning process in itself for one that has never had before.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on September 13, 2016, 06:35:24 AM
Hey no problem thanks for helping.

The ad had pics of different types of scaffold he has. I think the kind you're suggesting I get is this, just trying to make sure. (pic is from the ad)

(https://images.craigslist.org/00s0s_jYgqZSeeOV6_600x450.jpg)
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Redoverfarm on September 13, 2016, 07:59:41 AM
Yes that is it.  I think you can visualize by looking at the two types what I was referring to on the height adjustment.  Just make sure when setting it up to keep the ladder on the same side as you build higher.  If not you will have to climb it like a squirrel.  ;D

Make sure that the braces are included.  Mine are 1-1/4" angle iron.  Some may be 3/4" conduit.  I like the angle iron because it is stronger. 

You might check to see if he has any walk boards as they can be pricey if purchased separately.  Mine are Aluminum/plywood and 7'3" long with a nonskid adhesive .  Although a long walkboard is nice to bridge between two separate bucks unless you have an extreme long working area you can achieve 21 feet by erecting two separate bucks and bridging the center with the shorter walkboards.  Another advantage is that you can use two shorter walkboards side by side on one buck to give yourself a larger working area where as the longer walkboards are designed to reach from one buck to the other and cannot be used on one buck separately.

Depending on your the levelness of your ground you might find a use for wheels which will let you roll the completed scaffolding down the line without disassembling it.  Just don't use cement blocks laid on their side to support the bucks.  They are fine if you set them as you would laying the block and then use 2X material on top for the bottom to rest on.  I have seen a couple cases to where they were erected on blocks lying on their side and bust throwing everyone and everything off.  Not too bad at one buck high but at 4-5 bucks serious complications usually occur.  :(

I have included a site that you can use for price comparison.  Shipping is probably not included though.

http://www.scaffoldmart.com/

Well now you have Scaffold 101.  Just some things to consider.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on September 13, 2016, 02:18:36 PM
That's great information, thank you. I'm going to keep my eye on craigslist and hopefully pick something up in the next few weeks.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Don_P on September 13, 2016, 03:10:35 PM
Grab the yellow ones, that is Bil-Jax brand 5x5's, 3/4 conduit X braces... but I actually climb on them too so strong enough. That is a very popular brand so more parts around and easier to find more that matches up. The slide catches are fast and easy to use. Chexk that you get all the top pins and that the brace slides and pins are undamaged. Look the welds over. Look for bulges in the pipes... believe it or not if the bottoms get packed with mud and the tubes fill with water it can split the pipes when it freezes, I've got several decommissioned ones I limit to one high that a mason gave me. Either store them up on boards like he has or I usually store them on their sides on boards. If you get walkboards check them for rotten decks and bent parts.

Ditto on the blocks on their sides, lots of folks have learned that the hard way. I try to keep decent scraps of wood, timbers and lvl around for leveling. As long as I'm being a nanny, don't extend boards out into space... or be mighty careful if you do. I walked onto a site one morning for my first day helping an owner builder. It was obvious he had fallen when I got there. An overhanging board and he walked out on it. We started calling and found him in the hospital, lucky to be alive.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: GaryT on September 14, 2016, 06:02:56 AM
Whenever I've needed scaffolding, I rented it (a place in Albany, NY...I bet most cities have rental places like that...all they do is scaffolding).  Wasn't sure how much I needed; the guy just said to me, "where do you want your feet?  I'll put you there.)   I've so rarely needed it that renting was easily the best bet for me.  Just a thought.
Gary
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on September 14, 2016, 03:28:13 PM
I didn't give a whole lot of thought to renting. I think I'll need it for around a month this fall, then potentially next spring for any finishes that weren't worth doing right now.

My exterior has more steps than some - it will be windows, 2" exterior insulation, vertical furring 1x3 to create a rain screen, then will be pine lap siding. Also the window trim has to be extended out a few inches, not a huge job but an extra step.

I got the first row of roof sheathing up on the north side of the house today. Over the 38 ft I worked myself about an inch out of square on the sheathing. Oops.

Roofing is damn hard work. If I hadn't laid all that block and done all the framing beforehand, I don't think there's any way I'd be able to push and pull that sheathing up there. But it's coming along. Before I go above the first course of sheathing I want to put the drip edge on. I want to do as much work as possible before all the sheathing is on. Really considering even starting to put the metal on while I still have access to attic joists. It's nice to have the flat surface.

It's surprising what you can get used to. I guess I don't like heights, but it just stops bothering ya after being up there a little while. I did the hike, in Zion natl park, called Angel's Landing. Always think how the heck did I do that? One foot in front of another.

I think the key to all this stuff is one piece of sheathing at a time, one board at a time, one nail at a time. People love talking about drywall or this or that, but you have to block them out and just pound one nail at a time.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Don_P on September 14, 2016, 06:32:26 PM
Aside,
All that matters is that one blow, driving that nail
Apologies for butchering "Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance"  :D

Annie Dillard wrote about splitting wood. It took her quite some time of hitting wood with a maul before she realized the "target" was the maul driving through the wood.  There is a different vision going on.
You can hit a nail or you can Drive the nail, its fun when they are driving.

I'm kind of down to tapping on them  ::)

We rented enough scaffold to do a slow job and I started buying it. If you look at long term maintenance and have the storage room I'd get what looks like 6 sections if at all possible. The roof will go easier if you can go ahead and get it sooner than later. Looks like $800 for the bare scaffold, count on ~1200 lightly fitted out... then see what rental would run. I like having it around but its one more chunk of metal in your life.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on September 16, 2016, 10:01:44 AM
One thing at a time...

Do need to post an update on the problems we've been having.

Cabot made good on the stain. They are refunding us the solid stain and the primer, plus giving us two free gallons of stain. They basically covered the wood we ruined - that's pretty awesome. The last person my wife talked to said she wasn't surprised the primer caused curing problems, and that they generally don't recommend any primer for ANY oil based stain. She said they were going to review the initial recorded call with the first rep to make sure that person knows to not tell people they can use primer under oil stain.


The Milwaukee saga continues.. they returned the tool unfixed. Note said to send the batteries in for testing. No way.. the batteries work fine on all the other tools. My wife called customer service and the person said we should have done a better job describing the problem... ?!? Wife called back and demanded a manager, and now they might ship us a new saw. Either way once I have electricity I am going to search the internet for old made in USA tools. IMO stay the heck away from the new Milwaukee stuff.

I recorded the saw before I sent it in. For anyone interested.. even though it fully revs half the time, once you put it in some lumber it will bind up almost immediately.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cEw-2DIjKQ

I'm not sure I mentioned I have a cordless angle grinder that also died after about an hour of use. And honestly, the new 6.5" circular saw makes a weird wobbling sound when running too. Doesn't inspire a lot of confidence.

Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Redoverfarm on September 16, 2016, 11:12:05 AM
I hesitated to say anything about the primer but thought to myself that it's stain not paint.  Anyway it's good to see the company making good on the product.  Not so much with Milwaukee.  Generally most bigger company's are good standing behind their products.  It does seem that the representative that you are talking to has a lot to do with the outcome of complaints.

Just today I contacted Moen about a leaking bathroom faucet.  Most likely a cartridge.  No question asked and they are mailing a replacement.  That thing was installed in 1996.   :D

Just from the video it sounds as if it is the brushes are not making contact. 
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on September 16, 2016, 02:05:21 PM
Wow, lifetime warranty. That is really worth something.

Yeah Cabot's got my recommendation after that. The can does kind of say not to use the primer before oil stain, so they could have just said we didn't follow directions.

The saw is actually a brushless motor, so that is not the problem. The manager just called my wife back, they are going to ship us a new saw. That is a huge relief. She has more of a backbone on this stuff than me, I probably would have given up after the first rep blew me off.

Jig for dropping the fascia into place. The C clamp acts as the first resting point. Can never have too many clamps.
(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FF0q5K1P.jpg&hash=fbcc31c6489bc417652d25e2e86e59da)

Both eaves done.. this is the worst of it. Constantly leaning out to move clamps and boards that act as a 'stop' for the sheathing. Right at the end I pinched a nerve or something in my rib from leaning on it so much. Not to mention I was leaning on blocking cut at a 30 degree angle to allow for a 2" vent channel. Now I can slide the boards out there and rest them on the one below. The sheathing I am using is T&G, which means I don't need to use the H clips. Also wondering if, like floors, the T&G makes it as though I am actually blocking every joint in the sheathing. Should make for a strong roof, especially @ 16OC.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FNXMl2tR.jpg&hash=7b2cdf1739d4ed62ca579627d5880457)

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I love the generous overhang. It was a lot of extra work but it should really go a long way to protecting the house from the elements. I think that it makes houses look a lot nicer too.

Before any more sheathing I want to put on the drip edge and the first roll of ice and water shield. Planning to do 2 strips of the ice dam stuff. Had the metal roof delivered today.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Redoverfarm on September 16, 2016, 02:31:28 PM
Good news on the saw.  Hopefully you just got one that was built on Friday evening or Monday morning.   ;)

On the sheeting overhang I am sure you measured & figured twice but sometimes a little extra is too much.  Meaning with the facia board and drip edge you don't want it too long or the water will overshoot the gutter if you are installing some.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on September 16, 2016, 02:46:40 PM
The sheathing doesn't hang out beyond the fascia at all. That's what you mean right? If anything, the sheathing is actually a little short of the end of the fascia.

I am not going to have time to do a gutter this year. I am a little on the fence about it. I kind of want to watch the bottom of the siding to see if I am getting splash back, if so, I think it's time for a gutter. Seems like in my climate there is a big debate about gutters. Some people say they're a problem with all the snow.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Redoverfarm on September 16, 2016, 02:53:52 PM
I had always heard that 1/2-5/8" was adequate with a drip edge.  Just make sure the water will make it past the facia face.  Yes gutters can be a problem in snow regions but for people that have basements it a must.  I put ice guards on mine to keep the sliding snow from tearing the gutters off.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on September 16, 2016, 03:08:46 PM
Eave trim came with the roof I ordered. I am not sure how far the drip edge sticks out, but I was just planning to install the trim itself flush with the fascia.

They actually suggest screwing the eave trim into the fascia.

Just planning to follow the instruction book. We technically got the exposed eave trim, with a cleat to install the standing seam panels concealed at the eave. I was thinking about not screwing the eave trim into the fascia at all, and if it actually does get rickety in a storm deal with it then.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FSXQWqN0.png&hash=0a94d80c9dac0bbbb0721d8b314c79b4)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F6F3t4Ho.png&hash=9b1fe0c4a553707d843d8d434f9aa1c2)
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Don_P on September 17, 2016, 04:17:28 AM
Did you get the eave trim (exposed) or drip edge trim with cleats (concealed). The concealed method works good with standing seam. It does take longer at the bottom edge but not bad. Look around at existing work, on the bottom edge of the standing seams we usually bend a tab of the outer standing seam over the end of the completed seam to hide that edge and the sealant. That tab will, present itself, as you snip the metal to form the bottom bend around the drip edge. A couple more snips and you'll have that end cap. The bottom rake/eave corner is where the wind gets to most roof materials first.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on September 17, 2016, 01:16:01 PM
I have an offset cleat only for the the standing seam panels. The eave trim is the exposed fastener type, but I was thinking to not screw it to the fascia. A professional roofer did a bunch of videos for this panel company, and he didn't fasten the eave trim to the fascia.. not sure if you have an opinion on that. This kind of stuff is really hard to explain by text.

I understand what you're saying about bending  the extra edge of the seam to conceal that opening.

I figure at the least I can always screw it in next year if it's taking a beating. On my shed, I never fastened the eave trim or gable trim to the fascia/fly rafter. They haven't moved or bent at all..

Trying to summarize my plan at the eave - it is not quite like either picture I posted. I have a cleat that will allow me to install the panels in the concealed fastener method. The eave trim is the same as the exposed fastener picture, but I was thinking about deviating from that in NOT screwing the trim into the fascia, and only screwing it into the the roof sheathing.


Was really windy today, but my wife and I were able to move all 16 remaining full panels into the attic so they can just be slid out onto the roof once the weather is nice. It went WAY faster and more easy with her. One of those jobs that is way way way more than twice the work alone. Sliding the sheathing out onto the roof is not bad, and mostly goes as well alone as with a second person. Also I don't need to be setting up any more jigs to hold the sheathing in place, which is great. The exception to that being that towards the end I'm going to ahve to nail some 2x4s in out there and slide a bunch of sheets out at once before finally closing the roof up. I am not dragging any sheets out over the eave. That would be a real pain.

Also I spoke with my neighbor and he is letting me borrow his scaffolding. He has 5 sets. Really awesome.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Don_P on September 17, 2016, 02:37:03 PM
There ya go. Plenty of guys around here have found the best of both worlds is if I own the scaffold  :D. We all loan scaffold around the neighborhood to whoever needs it at the moment. I've had 3 other guys stuff and mine set up at once before. A couple of bucks left the job yesterday to put up a sign over the weekend.

I've omitted fascia screws before on those kinds of trims and gotten away with it. In the big wind, who knows. It gives you more gutter options if it isn't screwed yet.

I can usually bring the upper rows of the roof with me to the point that I only need to get a few sheets out at the end. I usually just spike them to the roof with a 16 into the framing till I need them.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: dablack on September 19, 2016, 03:24:27 AM
That is great news on the scaffold.  I'm going to be ordering mine before too long. 

House is looking great!

Austin
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on September 20, 2016, 01:41:07 PM
Thanks Austin. Yes, it is awesome to not have to buy or rent scaffolding. These kind of costs can really creep up. A good 28' ladder, $300. Quality ladder stabilizer/standoff $85. Ladder roof hooks, $50. Didn't need em, but the feet levelers can run $100.

Tools can be pretty expensive, and very frustrating when they don't work well. I also just ordered a ton of metal/tin tools for installing the roof. Left and right hand snips, $35. Duckbill snips $33. Seaming tool $30. Pop Rivet gun $35. Turbo shears (drill attachment) $50. Well, the list goes on. But as much as possible I am getting made in USA stuff.  A couple things are Taiwan because I just had trouble justifying certain items that will likely be one time, or not many time, use.

I was in a pinch for some 8d nails, I had buy Grip Rite - but get this they had a couple boxes made in the USA. And the quality is fantastic.

I took a few days off, but put on the first course of ice and water shield on the north side of the roof today. Still getting some sun hitting there, which is good. That stuff would have gone on easier with a second person. I wound up with a few wrinkles. One of them I think I'm actually going to cut out and patch. I can't imagine anything would telegraph through the metal roof, though.

After that I put on the second course of sheathing on the north side. That went well, and I have to say T&G is actually way easier on a roof than on a floor.. 'cause gravity.

Also I finally tried out the zip tape, I went ahead and taped the seams under the ice and water shield. That stuff was actually a pleasure to work with. Because it is pressure activated you can lightly tack the start of the strip, then pull it to length and get it squared up, then go back and adjust where you started.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on September 22, 2016, 12:38:40 PM
Some overdue pics, kept for getting the camera and the wife is out of town with the smartphone. The flippy phone isn't much of a camera.

The trick with the ice and water shield (alone) is probably a max length of 14 - 16 feet. Snap a chalk line, then get one edge lined up on the chalk line, and tack it in place with an awl, then unroll it with the backing still on, and at the other edge get everything tight and as line up as you can, then start peeling the top half starting there, work way back to awl and you have just peeled something with no lines in it.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FeL6a7ST.jpg&hash=2ce62a36c646b11a5183ba4983aed053)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FrqRZnW3.jpg&hash=3d780c08d6713316c9c4c3c3b7baa1d6)

Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on September 25, 2016, 01:54:38 PM
More progress. The rest of the sheathing should be a victory lap, and not much tape to put on. Should be on schedule to start the metal this week. Feels really good. I actually have grown to enjoy being out on the roof. It is interesting the way building a house prepares you for the next step. Laying the block gives you the muscle for the walls, the walls and floors get you ready for the tougher framing of rafters, being in the attic gets you acclimated to being up high.

I try to call it like it I see it on all the materials and tools I've been using. I have been really impressed with Huber products. The roof is T&G zip system and has been great to work with. T&G is actually a lot easier to work with on a roof than a floor. And frankly I'm glad I wasn't fiddling with those H clips up there. The tape has been easy to put on. Way easier than tar paper anyways. It's also a fantastic surface to walk on out there, you can be fairly certain you aren't going anywhere. The ice and water shield is also a good surface to walk on. The Ice and water shield is a butyl based adhesive, so we terminated the top edge with the acrylic based zip tape. Butyl based tape should always terminate with acrylic.

Another note, the zip system wall sheathing has a slightly oval edge on the long side - which acts as your 1/8 inch spacer. So you can just rest one board on top of another instead of trying to use nails to get your space correct.

On top of all that it is warrantied for 6 months of exposure, and likely could handle a lot more than that based on some of the stuff I've read. The glue they use to manufacture the OSB must have come a long way from when people used to complain about the edges swelling after a single rain. Something to really think about when building a house yourself. If you're not done in time for winter the sheathing could handle an entire winter of exposure.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FZOp0xsN.jpg&hash=f0cc90885e8de6e63d2a70d7fe57bf8f)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FCa57tgH.jpg&hash=ef22ea8a5763e9ef5f24d4c0ba57fff9)
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on September 25, 2016, 04:04:33 PM
Thanks for the thoughts on the Zip panels.  I've been thinking about using them ever since I learned that my local lumber yard stocks them.  Your eaves and rake look great, exactly what I want on my cabin.  I'm sure you mentioned before but what's the pitch on your roof?
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on September 25, 2016, 04:14:54 PM
The pitch is 7-12. That was a story unto itself. I even cut 4 rafters for 9-12 but as we were lifting them into place we realized that was too dangerous for us.

I'm going off memory for this, but 9-12 @ 20 foot span was about 7' (to the bottom of the ridge, 8' to the top) above the attic joists. Lifting a 2x12 that high from the joists was not fun. I have a thread for the shed I built last fall, and that was 9-12. That was not walkable at all with tar paper on it. I think you could shimmy around on the zip boards, but you would really need to have 2x4 nailed in all over to stand on. Don P said his walking limit is 8-12, and that sounds right on the money. 7-12 is very comfortable for me. I have spent hours out there and feel good about it. My wife and I both are always harnessed in, and the harness is always set up so that if you fall you don't drop over the eave. I drew out 6-12, 7-12 and 8-12 after feeling uncomfortable with the 9-12. Honestly, I chose 7-12 because it put the bottom of the ridge at shoulder height.

Some of this may change for a 1.5 story with a steep pitch because you can run a ladder right up along the roof from the ground. But again, the proper way to do a roof like that is with a beam, and getting that beam up there alone is a task.

Seriously, something I have learned with regard to design, is don't forget you have to install. I know I will manage, but I have a TON of 5' wide windows to put in soon. That is at least a 2 person job, whereas a 3' wide window you could probably solo.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: pmichelsen on September 26, 2016, 05:37:30 AM
The ice and water shield is also a good surface to walk on. The Ice and water shield is a butyl based adhesive, so we terminated the top edge with the acrylic based zip tape. Butyl based tape should always terminate with acrylic.

One thing I found while installing the Grace on my roof was that, it is very easy to manage and install when the temps are cool, but once the sun activates that adhesive, forget about it. And that goes for walking on it as well, once that stuff had baked in the sun for a bit and you tried to walk across it, it would slide around on you.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: dablack on September 26, 2016, 06:57:14 AM
I couldn't walk around on my 8/12 pitch roof.  It freaked me right out!  Once I got the grace triflex (synthetic tar paper) up there, it was much better.  The triflex has way more grip than OSB and I could scoot around on as long as I was laying flat or on my side.  The jeans and the triflex really stuck!  One afternoon I was out on the roof and felt great.  I had put down two courses of the triflex and was sitting on those while I worked on the 3rd.  The sun got low and the roof got a little dewy up there.  Under where I was sitting was dry but then I scooted over!  Opps!  Found the end of my rope with a quickness!  I'm always tied off so I can't slide off the roof.  It was too slick for my tennis shoes too.  I had to pull myself up with the rope. 

Just cause you can walk on a 9/12 roof with asphalt shingles on there doesn't mean you can walk on a 8/12 roof when you are building it!  Next one I build (if ever) will be 7/12. 
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Don_P on September 26, 2016, 08:14:06 AM
Really, there is no safe pitch... you're on a roof. The onlt thing I can say about walkability is all that matters is the conditions in that spot at that moment, one step away can be sawdust, spilled chalk, water or just a glazed spot. I've walked the osb fine on an 8/12, stepped onto the mineralized ice and water and was drifting on the rolling granules, I was really wishing I had an old foam cushion about then.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: pmichelsen on September 26, 2016, 11:38:13 AM
One thing that (even though I made fun of him for buying it) really came in handy...my buddy had one of the little Milwaukee electric blowers that we frequently used to "remove the ball bearings" from the roof.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on September 26, 2016, 12:42:06 PM
Yeah, I had to trim a few panels when they were on the roof - I worked from the outside in, and found myself an 1/8th to 1/4 off a few times. The sawdust is a real danger, ball bearings is a good way of putting it. A leaf blower is a good idea.

My number one priority is safety when up there. Everything else is secondary, when I'm nailing a sheet in I am thinking about where my knees and feet are, and making sure I don't have slack in the harness.

Don I can't imagine sliding down the roof knowing I'm headed for the ground. I'm guessing you have fallen more than once. It seems like people I've talked to do that do it for a living have all fallen. Not so much if, but when.

Took today off, extremely windy, a big storm is moving through pretty much the whole east coast. I got a chance to try folding one of the standing seam panels - I had a 3 foot sample piece from before we placed our order. Came out good and was easy to do.

I think I will actually install the final strip of sheathing as I am putting the metal down, that way I have easy access to the attic the whole time, and I can tie off to ridge/rafter instead of needing to screw the roof anchor in and out a bunch of times. I have thought about installing a permanent stainless steel roof anchor at the ridge. It would poke out under the Z-trim at the ridge.

One of these that bridged ridge..for some reason all that I can find is zinc coated rings though..
https://www.amazon.com/Miller-Honeywell-RA40-Permanent-Stainless/dp/B000LESLR4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1474926480&sr=8-1&keywords=stainless+steel+roof+anchor
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on September 29, 2016, 04:36:23 AM
I'm lucky that a professional roofer made a bunch of videos detailing how he installs the roof we are using. He also did videos directly for ABC metal roof on youtube if anyone else wants more resources.

This is the greatest tip ever - how he joins eave trim - or really this works with any piece of metal that has a hem/drip edge in it. Skip to 1 min 56 seconds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIC-7Jb8mTA&t=1m58s

From ground level it is really hard to even see a seam. On my shed I had just overlapped panels, and it's fine, but not nearly as clean as this.

We were able to install all the eave trim, and the cleat at the bottom of the roof that the standing seam panels fold under. We also put in one panel just so we could see how it looks. We are really happy with it. Unfortunately, I didn't notice until just now we don't have the proper fasteners for the rake trim. Sales lady said they should be here today or tomorrow. I wanted to install the rake before I put on a bunch of panels so I had good access with my harness on.

The cleat metal was unbelievably floppy. literally impossible to even pick it up without it folding on itself, then imagine carrying it up a ladder. It got nice and bent up, but it should still work just fine at holding down the 16" wide panels at the eave.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on October 01, 2016, 01:11:35 PM
Had some better weather today and got a bunch of panels and rake trim up. Love how it is turning out.. hard to take pictures that do it justice. Really happy we spent the extra money on the standing seam. The cleat on the bottom is a little fussy but worth it to have no exposed fasteners on the eave.

Very rewarding to see a little bit of the final product. The burnished slate roof color goes really well with the blue trim.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FCyauDMV.jpg&hash=0a828d4634e1e73c7a8c9cf9357f27e8)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FtGckQ5R.jpg&hash=a03b54f8b16182024eeddd71592ebaa4)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FOz1VCQU.jpg&hash=7845ecd145fe30db190cdbde81f111ab)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F44wG8oX.jpg&hash=9f8c3d28b9acdc505d4ca4b919f38344)

Found a couple pics from up on the roof.. my wife is usually the one taking those, as I don't normally bring my camera up there with me.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FVjnLS7r.jpg&hash=6c458e6e0c5355dc5917b5caad1e6ccc)
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Redoverfarm on October 01, 2016, 02:03:20 PM
Good choice on the color.  I put that up as well.  Sort of a break from the red.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on October 07, 2016, 01:41:40 PM
Thanks Redover. Yeah not sure how green and red became stock metal roof colors? We love the burnished slate.

Making progress on the panels. The cleat at the bottom that you put the folded panel under has been a bear a few times. I have gradually increased my bag of tricks, and it seems to be going well every time now. My wife has been on the roof screwing in every panel on 12" centers. We are exactly at the half way mark at 29 panels.. she has been a beast. This is not a one person job. I carry the panel up the ladder, and we attach a C clamp at the top so she can help pull it up. I get the cleat adjusted just right and we hit the seam down with our palms. She screws the whole hidden edge in. Awesome. Can't imagine how much more work this would be if we couldn't walk the roof. Very happy with 7 12 pitch.

My parents came up and we have been able to get a ton of sheathing up because of it.

On the south side the next panels will have the ice/water guard/flashing for the stove pipe. So that will go a little slower, but I think I have a good plan. Shingle style, and the bottom lip of the panel that rests on top of the standing seam will get the "Z Trim" and appropriate mastic tape. Basically going to treat the bottom edge like you treat the ridge.

Oh and we had our excavator out - he did all the grading and septic in one day. We have a nice big level area on the south side of the house with just one step down to earth. Something we really wanted.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F91jlIQf.jpg&hash=2410228e430fe838f59fbbc1f6eee05c)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fq2xTxBP.jpg&hash=998bb2aaf004bd1fa1f671a276e775fe)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FqcYlqRF.jpg&hash=c85192489eb1d2c369993d81cf5ded18)

The ridge is getting pop rivets. They are invisible from the ground.
(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FY0OZKFD.jpg&hash=7652124a195496353c7947c2892270ee)
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on October 08, 2016, 09:34:31 AM
Starting to block up the sheathing edges on the first floor now too. We are going to tape up the zip, and I am intending to just do the siding in the spring so I don't rush it. Too many important details.

One thing I'm thinking about - the big balcony opening on the second floor is about 9' 1" wide - framed with two trimmers and two king studs. Roof length is about 14'. We have about 4.5' of header bearing on that built up post, and really add in another foot from the other side to be conservative. 14 x 5.5 x 50lb snow load and we are close to 4000 lb of snow on each post for design reasons. Not including dead load there.

I know I need to put posts on the first floor underneath to help carry that load. Do I need to calculate all this out or is there a prescriptive table? It seems like 3 studs would get the job done. Not sure if I should do 4 and be done with it. Or stop being lazy and get out the calculator.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Don_P on October 08, 2016, 11:04:54 AM
The IRC girder tables, chapter 5 I think, give number of jacks under a girder or header that will work up to max stud height. That will probably be one king and 2 jacks, 3 ply. Doubling the king is good though. I think there is more in both the WFCM and WSDD manuals. At a built up 6x6, I'm not worried about buckling, I suspect a 3 ply would be more than fine below but once you ask, your mind is saying something, it would be worth checking. WSDD I believe has column load tables as well. There is a column calc on my site and I think medeek has one too
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on October 09, 2016, 03:35:51 AM
Thanks Don. I am not sure if I was clear on what my concern is. I know that the opening itself is fine - I already installed two jack and two king, which I took directly from either the code book or WFCM.

My concern was what happens when those loads are transferred down to the first floor. Should I put studs directly below? Attaching pic to hopefully clarify. I haven't found anything in the code or WFCM that directly addresses this.

Maybe that means I am worried about nothing (again  ;D)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FR9CKWoq.png&hash=69ea5c13bf09c629f4be100b7f7bc400)
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Don_P on October 09, 2016, 04:22:51 AM
I was the one being unclear. You do need to follow the load path down to ground. The floor should be blocked solid under the posts. There should be a stud pack under that, directly under the posts above. Since we've just created a stiff column, assume it will take the entire... lets call it 5,000 lbs from each post. I'm just throwing numbers at it, check your conditions.
http://www.timbertoolbox.com/Calcs/columncalc.htm
Inputs;
96
5.5
4.5
325
1.4
5000
Notice the column retains about 95% of buckling strength at those dimensions and height. The plates need to be capable of taking ~200 psi, they are good for ~325 psi so all is good. If you drop to 3" wide, 2 ply, it makes it, but barely on several counts.

I think the tables is WSDD will give you official backup for inspectors if needed. I haven't delved deep, it starts on pg 210 of my old copy.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on October 09, 2016, 12:28:36 PM
Thanks for the help Don. It looks like 3 ply is good to about 7600lb and 4 ply is good to about 10100lb in this scenario.

Is WSDD (Wood structural design data?) now called NDS (National Design Specification for Wood construction)?

In hindsight the WFCM is a much better framing resource than the code books. I have not used NDS or WSDD at all though. I don't see WSDD or NDS referenced in Chapter 3 of the code.


Separate topic - We started installing our chimney pipe today. Only got the through floor box installed. The instructions call for #8 x 1/2" self tapping stainless steel screws to attach sections of stove pipe together. Could not find self tapping anywhere, so thought I'd just predrill the holes. I'm thinking the screws need to be hand fastened? My drills were stripping the threads off the screws (!). Also I really don't like the phillips head. I've virtually never stripped a square head, but feel like I'm always fighting with the phillips.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Don_P on October 09, 2016, 02:09:18 PM
Go to chapter 44, referenced Standards. Under AFPA, the NDS (National Design Specification for Wood Construction) is listed. It is sort of the "parent" document that many others expand upon. There is also a list of code sections where a referenced standard is mentioned. It also lists the WFCM, Wood Frame Construction Manual.

I'm surprised, WSDD isn't referenced. I believe it would be respected. All of those documents were prepared by AFPA. You can find a copy of WSDD on the right column here;
http://awc.org/codes-standards/publications
That looks like it is the same as my paper copy. On pg 204 read the section on built up columns and the reduction to use.
Notice how both the WFCM and the WSDD reference the NDS... that is where the engineering "rules" for wood construction are laid out. Broadly, if something references that it is based on the NDS an inspector will respect that.

I'll go to school on you, my client ordered the chimney last week.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on October 09, 2016, 02:37:37 PM
I have been going to the WFCM for everything I do since I was trying to understand the proper way to do roof overhangs. Also then went through WFCM to double check the walls and floor are correct. It is a much more concise manual then the code book.

Sometimes I think if I were to start learning from scratch again, where would I begin? Not sure I know... something may have been lost when things went from master builder that did the whole house, to a million sub trade specialists that know their thing and not much else. Seems a little worrysome to to turn a plumber loose on the framing. Or even not having an idea of where drains are going while you're framing. Then again maybe the carpenters do know that.

This can all be very hard to navigate. The balcony is my magnum opus.  ;D Knowing it will need all sorts of special attention. You have no idea how glad I am that we chose a simple build.

Reading the stove pipe instructions, that first floor box is to be held in place with screws or 8-d nails. They say rated to hold 60ft of stove pipe. I went with spiral shank 8d knowing it would be carrying some weight. All the instructions say - to be installed by stove pipe specialist - so you probably shouldn't list to me :D
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on October 10, 2016, 02:01:43 PM
Drew up my basic plan for the shed roof and looking for any input from anyone.

Discussed much earlier in the thread, I do not want to do a ledger board, and would rather run the rafters into the second floor wall of the house. Would plan to cut little blocks/studs at the 4 - 12 pitch, with a top plate resting on those. The rafters would then rest on that.

I excluded the blocking at the top and bottom between the rafters in the 3d images to keep the pictures as clear as possible.

Sort of thinking of this as a floor, just at a slight angle. Only other thing I'm thinking right now is that I could double up the top plate that the rafters rest on. Also should probably add the little 4 - 12 studs at each end of all the wall stud bays to help secure the rafter top plate.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FnXJp3x6.png&hash=95eba5bf56e4e496ac477695da110e57)

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(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F5EKcu4d.png&hash=339c2c43db2163eca5f2ef06d9e27593)
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Redoverfarm on October 10, 2016, 04:40:50 PM
You would have more wall penetration and less insulation value.  If you choose this option I would add blocks to keep the rafters from wanting to roll. 
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on October 10, 2016, 04:49:41 PM
Thanks. Yeah definitely will be blocked at top and bottom of rafters. I don't like the idea of the the ledger board because snow from the gable will land on this roof occasionally. Screws holding everything in place makes me nervous. This is 50lb snow load and we are up on a mountain - potential for more I think. I could probably put 4" of foam board on the exterior of this area to make up for thermal loss.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on October 11, 2016, 09:10:58 AM
Looks well supported.  Run that blocking about an inch proud of the top of the rafter and flush with the outside wall, then you'll have something to nail your sheathing to.

Using Don_P's toolbox, a 2x10 rafter in SPF #2 grade can carry just over 1,000 lbs.  At 16" on center that works out to about 105 psf.  That would be more than enough for a gable roof, but as you said this roof could take some snow load from the main roof.  Having Doug fir #2 gives you another 500 lbs load carrying capability.  Not knowing what the actual snow load might be, were I in your shoes I'd try to get up to 1500 lbs per rafter, or add more rafters.  Especially considering that a sliding drift of snow will have some impact when it hits the shed roof.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on October 11, 2016, 12:18:07 PM
Smart thinking on the blocking.

I already installed my joists @ 16" centers.. a little late to step down to 12" OC. Once a nail is in an LVL.. it ain't coming out. I did take Don's advice and predrill my nails this time for the joist hangers. What a difference. I wish I knew that before all the pain and suffering. Other side note, been awhile since I did simple framing like that, and amazed how much faster I am now. Knowing exactly what to do before you start.. must be 2-3 times faster. Also comfortable tight rope walking on top of a 2x6 plate now which I wasn't before.

I also already have 2x10 #1 SPF on site for the rafters. That 100 lb snow load I am good for, I figured double the code would be more than enough. Hard to think of stepping up to 2x12's right now. That much snow and I'll have to rake it off anyhow because I have a window that will be something like 2-3 feet above the top of the shed roof.

Which calculator did you use to come up with those numbers?

Other unrelated note.. the standing seam roof is much slower going than a typical exposed fastener roof. Tons of extra steps. The ridge is a real chore, involving many many steps. Not to mention that pop rivets are a lot more fussy than screws, and you really need to check every rivet to make sure it properly engages the custom fitted metal Z trim that gets mastic on top and underneath and then fastened to the flat portion of the standing seam panel. Oh yeah, and then you also caulk the vertical seams of every piece of Z trim. On my gable roof that is 116 caulkings. Freakin roof.

Also straddling a ridge for an hour or so my knees feel how a 90 year old must feel.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on October 11, 2016, 04:46:41 PM
Nathan, I used this calculator for the beam:  http://www.forestryforum.com/members/donp/beamclc06b.htm

Just plugged in the rafter dimensions and kept upping the load until it showed failure.  Now that I think about it I was keeping dead load at 20% of live load.  Should have kept it constant.  Assumed 10 s.f. for the tributary area for a rafter, so 100 lbs dead load.

Total Load on Beam(pounds)    1700
Dead Load on Beam (pounds)   100
Span of Beam (inches)   90.5
Width of Beam   1.5
Depth of Beam   9.25
Select Species and Grade #1 SPF B+S

PASS | PASS | PASS

170 psf seems like it might be enough. :)
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Don_P on October 12, 2016, 03:58:57 AM
That is a heavy timber calc for timbers 5x5 and larger. It uses different, lower, base design values for many species.
Here's one way
go to the simple beam calc at timbertoolbox.com (my bandwidth  ;)). You can input design values directly. Do all your adjustments for snow, repetitive member... plus impact.

Figure trib area and snow load for the roof above. Dump that entire load times 4 (WHUMP!) for impact load on the snow landing zone of the rafter. Where it hits is a big part of bending moment.

Go to the beam design equations,awc's DA6, find the simple beam equations and use the equation to find max bending moment at any point along the beam. Apply the impact load to that spot and find max moment in the beam. You can continue longhand from there or use equivalent load by going back to my calc and play with load until you get to that max moment in the output. Now check your dimensions at those adjusted design values and moments.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on October 12, 2016, 05:28:20 AM
http://www.timbertoolbox.com/Calcs/ddsimplebeam.html

When I enter info and click show result I'm not getting any results. Tried in Chrome and Firefox.

I'll think about this more tonight, but the point load is going to be something like 1.33*50*14*4 = 3733lb which I'm guessing is impossible to pass with anything but steel or unobtanium?

Across the 14ft shed roof that is a 40,000 lb load which is like designing a roof for an old growth tree to fall on it.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Don_P on October 12, 2016, 06:40:05 AM
Yup, I'm getting a bug in that one too, click the simple beam calc to its left, you'll need to hand input the design values based on adjusting for impact, I think a 60% increase... wood can take a hit. You're impacting close to one end, the moment won't be as bad as I think you're thinking.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on October 12, 2016, 09:24:20 AM
Good morning gentlefolk,

Don, thanks for pointing out the difference in the two different toolbox calculators.  I take it the formula are the same but the engineering properties in the dropdown are different based on joist vs beam dimensions?

I ask because I get the same results from the two beam calculators
http://www.timbertoolbox.com/Calcs/beamcalc.htm
http://www.forestryforum.com/members/donp/beamclc06b.htm

Using the same numbers I mentioned in my post from yesterday, and using the engineering properties from the dropdown species selection for SPF #1, the uniformly loaded beam calc has a max load of 1701 lbs.

Just to be sure, I also plugged those in to the manual entry beam calc at FF Toolbox at http://www.forestryforum.com/members/donp/beamclcNDS2.htm and get the same results.

To use these tables for figuring joist or rafter loads, I should probably use a manual entry one and plug in the manufacturer numbers for the grade and dimension of the lumber, right?  If that is the case, I've looked up some specs.

Source  Grade  Fb  E    Fv 
Canadian Wood Council   (http://cwc.ca/wood-products/lumber/visually-graded/design-values-for-canadian-species-used-in-the-u-s/spruce-pine-firs-p-f/)  SPF #1 or #2 2x10    960    1.4    135 
NELMA   (http://www.nelma.org/wp-content/uploads/DesignTables_Softwoods.pdf)  SPF #1 2xAny    875    1.2    135 
NELMA   (http://www.nelma.org/wp-content/uploads/DesignTables_Softwoods.pdf)  SPF #2 2xAny    775    1.1    135 
WWPA   (http://www.wwpa.org/Portals/9/docs/pdf/dvalues.pdf)  SPF #1 2xAny    875    1.2    135 

Using 875, 1.2 and 135 for Fb, E, and Fv I get a max load for the 2x10 #1 SPF with 90.5" span of 1650 lbs.  Slightly less than the 1701 lbs but not by much.

However those values for Fb in rows 2, 3, and 4 are for any 2x dimensional lumber.  The design value adjustment (http://www.wwpa.org/Portals/9/docs/pdf/adjust.pdf) for a 2x10 is to multiply the base Fb by 1.1, which yields a 2x10 Fb of 962.5.  That looks to be the source for the CWC value in row 1 of 960.  Assuming I am doing this right, I would then plug that value in to the beam calc and get a max load of 1819 lbs.

I'm working my way through this stuff, so tell me if I'm on the right track please.  There is a load adjustment factor for the duration of the load in this document (http://www.wwpa.org/Portals/9/docs/pdf/adjust.pdf).  For an impact the factor is 2.0, so in theory the rafters can withstand a force of 3600 lbs that lands in a WHUMP from the roof above.  The seven-day factor is only 1.25 though, so unless the 3600 lbs (per rafter) slides all the way off it could result in damage to the structure.

Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on October 12, 2016, 10:00:54 AM
Replying to myself here, actually reading a little more slowly and carefully.  The WWPA adjustment page (http://www.wwpa.org/Portals/9/docs/pdf/adjust.pdf) is very helpful.  So for a uniformly loaded set of rafters one would start with the base engineering values, which for most SPF is 875 psi for allowable fiberstress in bending (Fb), modulus of elasticity (E) of 1.1 million psi, and allowable horizontal shear (Fv) of 135 psi.  With a nominal depth of 10" the adjustment factor of 1.1 is applied to Fb, resulting in a value of 962.5 psi.  Because the rafters are repetitive, applying the adjustment of 1.15 bumps the Fb up to 1106.9 psi.  The duration of load adjustment is then applied.  For snow accumulation over the winter, a factor of 1.15 is applied.  This results in a Fb of 1272 psi.  Following this method, each rafter can support up to 2400 lbs for two months.

For an impact, the adjustment factor of 2.0 is applied to the size-adjusted values, resulting in an Fb of 1925 psi and Fv of 270 psi.  I don't think the repetitive factor is applied.  The maximum uniform impact load for each rafter is then 3630 lbs.

Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on October 12, 2016, 12:37:32 PM
Just got back from cutting lots of metal so haven't had time to process everything.

But I should mail you both some fine upstate NY beer for all the help.

Will do these calcs but if 2x10 @ 16" doesn't pass it actually may be cheaper for me to double each rafter, or every other, instead of stepping up to 2x12.

Also used metal scraps to mock up my chimney flashing.. looks like rain tomorrow but hopefully doing that on Friday. Really glad I physically did a mock up because my original thought process was wrong.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on October 12, 2016, 04:19:22 PM
Chugiak I doubled checked numbers straight out of the NDS book. Identical to the numbers you used.

http://www.awc.org/pdf/codes-standards/publications/nds/AWC-NDS2005-Supplement-0905.pdf

pg 35
SPF (Southern)
Bending Stress = 875 = Fb
Modulus of Elasticity = 1.2 = E
Horizontal Shear = 135 = Fv

pg 30 has the adjustment factors you used from WWPA.

Repetitive Member = 1.15
10" nominal thickness = 1.1
Load durations; 2 month (snow) = 1.15, impact = 2.0

Everything same as you so far.

So for my max allowable impact calculation those factors get applied to -

Fb = 875 * 1.15 * 1.1 * 2.0 = 2213.75
Fv = 135 * 2.0 = 270 (not clear that the horizontal shear is supposed to get the impact adjustment?)

With the 2 ft overhang on the gable, the snow would fall around uh.. 32" from the edge?

So using Simple beam with a concentrated load @ 32", it looks like it is good for 2289lb in point load.

Gable roof is 14ft long. with 50lb snow load. So we do have the 14*50*1.33 = 931lbs Don mentioned quadrupling (!) this number to 3724 lbs.

2x12 is good to 3386lb

Double 2x10 passes the bending test to over 4500lb, fails deflection at that amount but don't think that matters.

I am a little skeptical that we are treating sliding snow (even if some ice) the same as a solid object.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Redoverfarm on October 12, 2016, 05:00:20 PM
[quote

I am a little skeptical that we are treating sliding snow (even if some ice) the same as a solid object.
[/quote]

You have to keep in mind that you are going from a 7/12 roof to a in your words "Sort of thinking of this as a floor" so the snow will slow or even stop on the lower pitch.  If in fact the addition was a continuation of the main roof the majority would probably slide off.  A lot depends on several factors.  Type of snow, heat from the sun, inside temperature penetration to the roof, outside temperature and roof pitch.  My roof is 10/12 transitioning to  3/12 and when it does slide don't be in front of it.  It had slid out into the yard some 15-20 feet one year. 
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Don_P on October 12, 2016, 05:46:14 PM
I've never checked this but am seeing a need to learn more about it.

The math is the same for both calcs, those dropdown lists in the calcs make things easy in one regard and limited in another. Steel, another elastic material, uses the same equations, the section properties and the design values, two sets of variables, change quite a bit.
http://awc.org/codes-standards/publications/da6

This calc will do the point load where the snow lands coming off the overhang above;
http://www.timbertoolbox.com/Calcs/AnyPtLd.htm
The equations in that graphic are what the calc is using, that is from DA6, the people who write the NDS. That is all those calcs are, most of them are just DA6 written in javascript so I wouldn't make dumb longhand mistakes.
Anyway, that will give the point load moment.
I'm not liking the output at all, it seems over the top... and I'll blame my 4x fudge factor for impact. I'm going from a comment, that needs nailing down. Using 3724 lbs and dropping the snow 2' out and coming up with a max moment of ~5473 ft-lbs

We also have a uniform load moment from the snow that is on the lower roof to begin with.
Using this calc
http://www.timbertoolbox.com/Calcs/beamcalc.htm
With a static, uniform, load of 466lbs I'm getting a 440 ft lb moment
When you look at the moment diagram for this beam it is a nice uniform curve. Max moment on a uniformly loaded beam is in the center. The area of concern is at about the quarter point. Brutally basic, the moment at the location of impact is about half the max moment... call it 250 ft-lbs, it is a curve.

Add the moments at that location 5473'# + 250'#= 5823 ft-lbs at the point 2' out on the rafter.

You can go back to the variable location point load calc and start upping the load until the max moment reads about 5823 ft lbs to get a solution to that combined loading scenario. I'm close calling the point load 4000 lbs. ... but I'd like something better for the impact load adjustment factor.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on October 12, 2016, 05:59:54 PM
Thanks Don. That helps tie things together for me. I wasn't quite sure how to back into the combined static load and point of impact load. Makes sense to me now.

What I mean when I said I'm skeptical of treating snow the same as a solid object is that I can drop 15 lbs of snow on my head from 10 feet up and just be cold, but if I do the same with a bowling ball.. well see ya later.

I think this is getting into force of impact physics. It's like a car buckling in a crash makes it safer, similar things are going on with the snow I think. When the front of the pile is stopped by the roof, and so on, it's not transferring the weight all at once.

It looks like 2x12 @ 16" would pass bending if the point moment was 4000lbs
(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F6Z4pbqD.png&hash=4e3fd6af3a174fb105aa0fcb702993e1)
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on October 13, 2016, 07:14:57 AM
I'm enjoying digging into the nitty gritty details of the beam calculations, but I don't want to derail the discussion from Nathan's issues.  One of the unknowns at this point is what the design snow load will be for each of the roof sections.  It may be worth the effort to delve into the ASCE publication on wind and snow loads, because it applies several factors to the ground snow load to arrive at a roof design load.  I'm working on a calc sheet for my cabin that goes like this:

pf = 0.7 * Ce * Ct * Cs * I * pg 

where
The ASCE is very proud of their publication and would love to charge you $165 for the 2010 version, Minimum Design Loads for Buildings and Other Structures (ASCE/SEI 7-10) .  I managed to find a version of the 2002 online and if you google around you may be able to get it, in whole or part.

My final roof load is 31.75 psf, reduced from a ground snow load of 70 psf.  The wind exposure, thermal regime, and roof pitch and material all contributed to a reduction of my snow load.  My roof is just a simple gable and your main roof will probably have a similar reduction.  The shed roof is a whole other matter.  It wouldn't surprise me if it ends up with an overall factor greater than 1.  I think before you go much further it is worth your time to get a more accurate estimate of your two roof design loads.

Edit: Here's an article on changes in the 2005 version that adress unbalanced snow load and sliding snow.
http://www.awc.org/pdf/codes-standards/publications/archives/AWC-ASCE7-05-SnowProvisions-0607.pdf
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on October 13, 2016, 09:39:38 AM
The ASCE is very proud of their publication and would love to charge you $165 for the 2010 version

 rofl

It is strange to me that some code - or more, the sources of the code, are behind a pay wall. Had a similar experience recently trying to look at some diagrams for the British Columbia code.

I do appreciate all the input. I was at the house earlier, and added up how much 2x10 stock I have left, I think I have enough to double all 8 rafters. That would give me a max moment @ 24" of 7891 ft lbs.

Wound up with a lot of extra 2x10 because when I did my estimate for header material I assumed every window needed a double 2x10, which was actually only necessary for the 5' windows. Going out and buying 8 2x12's would cost me probably another $160'ish.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on October 15, 2016, 12:56:51 PM
Making progress on the roof. Hopefully done soon. I am having the windows delivered on Tuesday.

Flashing the chimney was a not fun. All of our chimney parts are "Ventis" (made in Scranton PA) and seem like really high quality. Everything stainless steel. The flashing seems a lot nicer than what I've seen in stores. The top side is triangular and slides underneath the panels. Making sure those cuts were accurate was very time consuming and difficult to do. I chose to do everything as in place as possible because it's less chance to make a mistake with a tape measure. Anyway, the flashing is basically installed shingle style. I cut the off the roof seam on the bottom edge of the flashing and caulked the inside, and made folds with the metal to keep the rain out. All edges of flashing boot sealed with mastic/butyl tape. 1" wide, good stuff we've been using elsewhere on the roof. Also used polyurethane caulk as a backup in a few areas.

Additionally, hidden on the inside of the flashing I made all my metal cuts 1" small, and bent them upward. If any water somehow gets in there it will have a hard time getting down the chimney opening.

Anyway, that made for a long couple days. Chimney itself goes together very easily. At first I thought no screws were included, but I found them in the bottom of the boxes. The included self tapping screws worked like a charm. The chimney extends about 2.5' above the ridge. We had to install a stabilizer since we have about 7' of pipe above the roof. That was not a bad job.

No good detail pics up on the roof because it's just too much work. Hard to describe how to do some of this stuff by writing. Doing all the standing seam panels more than prepared me for the job though.

As long as we don't get rained out, tomorrow we have to do the main stack vent and radon vent through the roof. I really don't like poking holes in this roof.. it should be a lifetime roof, and the boots especially will not last that long. I think it is what it is though. Was thinking about wrapping the pipes in copper but frankly I don't have time for that right now. I want to get this roof done.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FOOVvVPX.jpg&hash=39049826c3afd3e583dd36c9d8e27520)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FFszWfkK.jpg&hash=6e1509461494df26dd222f7c7e47e891)
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on October 16, 2016, 09:16:09 AM
...
(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FFszWfkK.jpg&hash=6e1509461494df26dd222f7c7e47e891)

Gorgeous!  This is a great place to take photos from.  Were I in your shoes I'd probably be swooning every time I saw the place from this perspective.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on October 19, 2016, 03:14:55 AM
Thank you Chugiak. Yes it is unreal we built this place. And I do spend a lot of time just staring not believing it.

Step back to the calculations we've been doing for the shed roof. I made a little bit of a boo boo. My 2x10 stock is southern yellow pine. I looked up on the NDS sheet... it's got like double the rating of SPF.. and all other species. It's got it's own section.

Fb = 1850
Fv = 175
E = 1.7m

I ran some numbers, not in front of me right now, but I think the 2x10 SYP @ 16" is stronger than the 2x12 SPF @ 16". What! It looks like it passes the bomb falling on it test without needing to double rafters.

This is a whole new can of worms, and I started to plug things into Don's calculator.. but we are going to go try and finish this dang roof today so it's got to wait till tonight. But, why are the NDS #s so much higher for SYP, but the span tables in the code not really any different, and sometimes lower than other species?

I remember reading (I think from a post Don made here once) that SYP got derated a few years ago. The NDS tables are from 2005. That probably has something to do with it.

edit

http://awc.org/pdf/codes-standards/publications/nds/AWC-NDS2015-Supplement-ViewOnly-1411.pdf

2015 values are lower
fb = 1500
fv = 175
E = 1.6m
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on October 19, 2016, 11:23:20 AM
Hey that's great news!  When the numbers are in your favor it's not a boo-boo, it's planning for the unpredictable.  :)

When you run those calculations with the 2015 SYP, make sure to use snow loads that are specific to your roof.  The ASCE 7-10 applies a standard 0.7 factor to the ground load because roofs don't collect as much snow as the ground.  Additionally there is a roof slope factor based on the thermal properties as well as the roof material.  The bottom line is your main roof snow load will likely be about 50% of the ground load.  This means that a slide-off event that dumps on the shed roof should probably be based on that design load.

I'm exploring snow loads because I'm in a 70 psf ground snow load area.  I stumbled onto this page that looks like a college engineering class: http://www.civil.utah.edu/~cv5450/roofload/SNOWLOAD.htm
It's a helpful tutorial in navigating the ASCE 7 material.  It illustrates unbalanced snow loads well, and there is this gem about secondary roofs:

Quote
Sliding snow will reduce the load on the roof of origin, but can impose significant static and dynamic loads on a lower receiving roof. Ansi standards prescribe using the entire snow load from the upper roof to adjust the value of the lower roof and defines no distribution of the load on the lower roof.

If I had a structure like yours I would calculate the snow loads for each roof based on uniform snow load.  I would then calculate the load for the lower roof by adding the weight of all the snow from the main roof that will land on the shed roof.  Just the static load, I'm still puzzling out how to do a dynamic load calculation.  I'm also grasping the nettle of the different load durations and how to add them together.  I know Don_P has explained it but it's taking a while to crack into my thick skull.  Finally, I would look at prevailing winter wind direction and make some assumptions about unbalanced snow loading and work up some worst case scenarios.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on October 19, 2016, 12:52:15 PM
Yeah, I got mixed up but after examining all of my lumber, it looks like only the 2x6 stock is SPF. All of my 2x8 - 10- 12 are SYP. I did know this when I was designing my floor and gable roof. I just forgot. The span tables for SYP are kind of middle of the road in the code book. That's why I was so surprised to see that the NDS book seems to put it far ahead of virtually all other lumber..

Thanks for the additional tips, I need to reorganize later and double check things, but for Don's calculator we sort of added in the shed roof snow load to the point load calculation. It probably isn't perfect, but I feel pretty comfortable with it.

Huge relief today... we finished the gable roof. That was one heck of a job. Especially with fall here in force.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F2mYaIh0.jpg&hash=5809ea2a60f389b4f44784071be9be29)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FG9znrWb.jpg&hash=e934643253be211ec32264f6685695f5)
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Don_P on October 19, 2016, 06:51:59 PM
Those pics really show the changing light this time of year, pretty neat. Our mountaintops might get a dusting by the end of the week. I'm plugging holes and hoping to run some heat at work this winter.

When you look at a code table that includes several common species, or when you look at a species combination set of design values in the NDS supplement, the lowest strength species controls. 

Within a species and grade, when the third party grading agencies audit member sawmills they check the quality of the grading. Periodically they pull samples and break them to make sure the wood is up to the design values we are using. When they get some low strength breaks it is reported back to the ALSC that oversees all the grading agencies. If you are on grade and breaking low, the resource is changing. The forest products labs gets involved and they all look to see if indeed the timber resource is changing. In the case of SYP after the first report they broke a whole lot of wood, decided just that, and settled on the current numbers. This prompted scrutiny of the western woods and the reports came back earlier this year with no changes needed. Southern pine is largely a plantation tree now where western woods are still mostly naturals. They made a thinking error on the plantation, biggest and fastest isn't necessarily best. Trees have a lag time after the learning is done. If we alter our practices the timber will likely get back the previous numbers. Really a good stick now is as good as it ever was but they claim I can't see what makes the weak ones weak (that is a whole nother topic  ::))

 We typically frame with SPF unless we need the strength of SYP. To continue to have that higher strength option our local lumberyard sources #1 SYP. Dougfir is also in that range.

The big snow here some years ago, collapsed part of the grocery store, the roof at Nautilus collapsed, broke a gas line, then the roof left again, also splayed our roof a bit. We were gone building, there was no heat on, and from our neighbors description we were holding ground snow load, which was beyond design load (mother nature doesn't read the codebook for weather advice). It is not uncommon here for people to install snow guards after losing the gutters once or twice. The logic then can go from, this roof is going to clear, to, this roof is going to hold the snow. I let the engineers tease out those details and am conservative when I design.

Chugiak, good catch, load duration... you cannot add the different duration adjustments. From appendix B in the NDS, pick the shortest duration load and its load duration factor. So for this, impact with a load duration factor of 2.0. You cannot then multiply that sum by 1.15 for snow. Duration of load adjustment for connections cannot exceed 1.6.

To properly adjust the base design values the load duration factor Cd is multiplied by Fb and Fv but not E. That sum is multiplied by the other adjustment factors... wet service factor (E also if you are using green lumber, E is only adjusted for moisture and incising), then for Fb the result is multiplied by the size factor then the repetitive member factor. There are actually 8 possible adjustment factors for Fb but these are the most commonly used.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on October 20, 2016, 05:41:55 AM
Thanks for sharing all the knowledge Don.

That is interesting on why SYP was downgraded a few years ago. I know very little about wood grading - I read a bit about it in "A Timber Framer's Wokrshop" and I pretty quickly realized that for this project I just need to stick with the tables.

The span tables gave me no appreciation of how much stronger SYP is than other species. More in terms of the amount of weight it would take to break. SYP has a lower modulus of elasticity than Doug fir, which would be why it spans a little less in the code (so, SYP flexes more than Doug Fir). But just looking at ability to carry weight before breaking - SYP can span over 20% more than Doug Fir in the example I created.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on October 20, 2016, 11:32:18 AM
Hey that's great news!  When the numbers are in your favor it's not a boo-boo, it's planning for the unpredictable.  :)

When you run those calculations with the 2015 SYP, make sure to use snow loads that are specific to your roof.  The ASCE 7-10 applies a standard 0.7 factor to the ground load because roofs don't collect as much snow as the ground.  Additionally there is a roof slope factor based on the thermal properties as well as the roof material.  The bottom line is your main roof snow load will likely be about 50% of the ground load.  This means that a slide-off event that dumps on the shed roof should probably be based on that design load.

I'm exploring snow loads because I'm in a 70 psf ground snow load area.  I stumbled onto this page that looks like a college engineering class: http://www.civil.utah.edu/~cv5450/roofload/SNOWLOAD.htm
It's a helpful tutorial in navigating the ASCE 7 material.  It illustrates unbalanced snow loads well, and there is this gem about secondary roofs:

If I had a structure like yours I would calculate the snow loads for each roof based on uniform snow load.  I would then calculate the load for the lower roof by adding the weight of all the snow from the main roof that will land on the shed roof.  Just the static load, I'm still puzzling out how to do a dynamic load calculation.  I'm also grasping the nettle of the different load durations and how to add them together.  I know Don_P has explained it but it's taking a while to crack into my thick skull.  Finally, I would look at prevailing winter wind direction and make some assumptions about unbalanced snow loading and work up some worst case scenarios.

Your comments got me digging. I follow what you're saying about the actual snow load on my roof is probably closer to 50% of ground snow load.

I also found what the engineers use for an additional 'sliding snow load on adjacent roofs'

Sliding Snow load = 0.4 * flat roof snow load * horizontal distance from eave to ridge of upper roof

flat roof snow load = 0.7  * ground snow load * exposure factor * thermal factor * importance factor

For my roof; exposure factor = thermal factor = importance factor = 1.0

Finally,
flat roof snow load = .7 * 50 = 35

So,
Sliding roof snow load = .4 * 35 * 12 = 168


Then, to apply this to the lower roof, the 168 psf gets distributed over a distance of 15 ft from the upper roof eave, and if the width of the roof is less than the 15 ft, the sliding load gets reduced proportionally. My lower roof has apx a 1 ft overhang + the 8 ft span = 9ft If I measure horizontally. If I measure with the roof it would be 10ft. I also think I am supposed to exclude the 2 ft under the eave from this calculation. But since I'm not sure about some of that, I'm going to be conservative and say my lower roof is 10 ft wide.

So the proportion then becomes 168 * 10 / 15 = 112

Then 112 / 10 = 11.2 psf is the sliding load. I could be extra conservative and now not include the 2 ft of roof under the eave and do 112 /8 = 14 psf

14 psf is such a tiny number compared to the ground snow load of 50psf. This was really surprising to me.

Something else interesting, they do not mention or attempt to account for the initial thump of the snow falling.

The sloped roof load is a reduction on the flat roof load. But I think it's not necessary for me to finish the calculation.

If I use Don's calculator to find my max roof load - Uniformly Loaded Beam Overhanging One Support. Using the numbers from SYP #1 - and even excluding modifiers for snow load and repetitive members, at 2x10 #1 SYP each rafter can carry 319lb per foot. Adjusting for 16" OC that is 319 / 1.33 = 240psf. Weight of the sheathing and standing seam should  be less than 3 psf.

Unless I am messing something up big time, I think that the 2x10s are already way overkill. Not even worth calculating the roof snow load to add on to the measly 14 psf from sliding snow.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fj2UKtMh.png&hash=910337f3cf48ec34ecb1de0638b529e8)
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on October 20, 2016, 01:31:46 PM
I don't mean to be a Debbie Downer, but I think you may need to adjust your calcs for Fb.  It looks like for a 2x10 the max allowable fiber stress in bending is 1050 psi.  Table 4B in the supplement is for 2"-4" thickness, and the width rows are for the rafter depth.  Thus a 2x10 is down in the 10" wide row.

On the up side, if you plug in a 1.15 repetitive factor you're up to 1207.5 psi.  For looking at snow load you can further apply the 1.15 for two-month duration loads, resulting in a Fb of 1388.6.  Running a normal beam calc on a 96" span I get a max rafter load of 2475 lbs, which works out to 232 psf. 
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on October 20, 2016, 01:51:08 PM
 ;D Thanks for the correction. I did take the numbers from the wrong section.

Still trying to find some more information on snow impact load.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on October 20, 2016, 02:17:17 PM
...
Still trying to find some more information on snow impact load.

It looks to be too variable to design for.  A major variable seems to be the amount of ice that has formed, which seems all but impossible to engineer for.  In my recent searches it seems like the strategy is to put snow guards on the roof to prevent sliding.

http://www.poa.usace.army.mil/Portals/34/docs/engineering/MP-01-5663,%20Minimizing%20the%20Adverse%20Effects%20of%20Snow%20and%20Ice%20on%20Roofs.pdf has some general guidance on the adverse effects of snow and ice.  Me, I'm glad I have gable end doors and will be sure not to park a snowmobile under the eaves.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on October 23, 2016, 11:23:34 AM
After 3 days of heavy rain, we got a chance to start the mudroom roof. Was very windy today - gusts around 40mph. House was completely steady even without having finished sheathing, so that was nice. It has been so windy for the past 3 days most of the fall colors are gone. Winter is knocking.

Decided to double the rafters on the mudroom. We had exactly 16, and they would otherwise just sit around for a future project or get diced into blocking.

Awesome to see this roof take shape. I think it adds so much to the house.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FQtTPBQp.jpg&hash=6b60d3d1767b4dcb18df04a722d04e81)


The grading around the house is a great starting point. This was a real test.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FfAouJMl.jpg&hash=020150280e19cf0dd75201875d55e569)
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on October 26, 2016, 12:23:42 PM
Getting some snow tonight and tomorrow. Been a marathon trying to get the roof mostly waterproofed. I have a ~2ft strip at the top that is still open, because I need to do the air sealing on the rafters still. This strip is fully under the gable overhang, so hopefully not too much will get into the house anymore.

I forgot to take a picture of where the rafters punch through the wall. It is a monstrosity of lumber. Every stud bay has a cripple stud on each end, and then a double cripple under each double rafter.

The one barge rafter running wild still needs to be detailed, it will wrap around the corner of the house and that little portion of the mudroom roof will run up that wall a bit. I think that is the nicest way to tie the roof in with the house and make it look integral.

I find the 7-12 gable and 4-12 shed look really good together.

I also spoiled myself and finally bought Stabila levels - a 2 pack of 48" and 16" off ebay was $99 delivered. They are awesome and will pay dividends for leveling windows, plumbing doors, and just all the finish work that will begin soon. I did check a bunch of windows and door jambs and it would make you think I know what I'm doing.  ;D

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FuaKZp0O.jpg&hash=2a41fe93594d19c0170696b4ddf8eae3)

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Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on October 30, 2016, 11:32:34 AM
Shed roof is sheathed, both gable ends are just about finished too. Just have the <2ft strip at the top of the north and south walls, and 1pc on each end of mudroom wall. Glad I don't have to carry any more big sheets up the ladder. We did clamp and rope the big ones, my wife sitting in the attic helping to pull as I pushed. Even just for the extra stability and holding them as I changed positions.

If you don't like heights don't build a 2 story house.

By the way, want to mention again zip system/Huber. The rafters were very quick to air seal because they make a stretchable flashing tape. It's not cheap, but I don't think you could properly air seal some of these penetrations without it. It was probably 32F when I was sealing everything up, and it stuck tenaciously. All the straight edges I used regular tape, and then for wrapping the top and bottom of rafters I used the stretch tape. It came out great. Before drywall and insulation I will caulk/sprayfoam the interior of those holes as a backup. Since the rafters are all double I do need to get that seam sealed from the inside.

We are probably 80% finished doing all the blocking for the sheathing, but probably only 30-40% has been nailed in from the outside. I wish I had 9ft panels and did them vertically. I'm guessing the blocking will also require a lot of custom fitting of the cavity insulation, which I have decided to spend more and go with rock wool. From what I read it is more possible to install it without lots of voids.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FZG6oCdV.jpg&hash=356fdebe033f61f3fea9b1dc33604ed3)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FE9b6wdM.jpg&hash=b08f30617d756a863363bad344bc75bd)

We have nice weather this coming week, even if some showers it will be warm. Last week got really nasty.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F9j5bcg5.jpg&hash=7032997ce3491d4db398faa7bab217dd)
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on November 06, 2016, 01:48:06 PM
Been really busy. Finished framing out the upstairs interior because my brother in law drove 5 hrs to wire our entire house this weekend. What an unbelievable help, and he made sure we didn't do anything stupid. He also told us about generator ready electrical panels, so we got one of those. When we lose power we can flip a switch and run a section of our panel off a generator. Something neat for the future is that the 50 amp plug we are going to install could also be connected to an inverter.. that runs off batteries.. that runs off solar or wind or some combo. Something we can grow in to.

Framing the interior was absolutely miserable. I had to sledge hammer every single wall into place because of the deflection in the 19' 1" span of the attic joists.

Ran conduit up to the peak of the house and fed the service wire through that.. barely got it through. Dawn dish soap as lube finally did the trick.

He also helped me carry the huge windows upstairs, which was an impossible job without him or another guy..they are too large/heavy/awkward + ladder for me and my wife alone. For the 5040 we also loosely tied a rope around them so my wife could keep just light tension to give a little extra stability while we climbed the ladder with 2 hands on the window and an elbow on the ladder... yeehaw. Will finish flashing the jambs and head this week. Also in addition to flashing the rough sill (with stretch tape.. yes that stuff is so amazing) I flashed the rough jamb. Also I installed a piece of bevel siding on the rough sill to give positive slope to the exterior. If the windows leak it should be very difficult for them to find wood to rot.

I will take more pics this week, it has been so much work lately haven't felt like picking up a camera after working so fast. It will actually slow down a little bit now. Although our wood cookstove is being delivered this week and at 800lbs that will be a joy to get from the road to the house.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FEi8AY8f.jpg&hash=0d7669857611bb505da1850bb405caaf)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FbG2zluO.jpg&hash=64b41bd23801094a0f318dd37409b9a6)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Ffc21I9w.jpg&hash=74b740925c715c14e44bf5bfe6def33d)
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Redoverfarm on November 06, 2016, 03:07:56 PM
Stove shouldn't be a problem with the Ford tractor until you hit the doorway.   ;)
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on November 06, 2016, 03:24:49 PM
I'm worried that the stove won't fit in the bucket. I almost almost bought a fork attachment for the loader but was worried about fitment.. I think I will have a lot of use for those forks but it is also hard to spend money on something like that right now.

This is our stove - but it will be crated.
(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcookstoves.net%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F05%2FKitchenQueen_4_wm.jpg&hash=795efc9bca79d65630b3a4d8d7631b37)

My neighbor is letting me borrow his flatbed trailer and some dolly type wheels. We were thinking we could have the freight truck lower the stove onto the trailer, and he could probably just use his pallet forks to slide it onto the trailer, or i could winch it. Then drive the trailer to our french door opening, jack the pallet up with my car jack and then push it onto the slab.

Open to any ideas.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Don_P on November 06, 2016, 03:42:00 PM
That's a beauty. Planks, pipes, plywood and come alongs have moved a lot of stuff around here.

With that grade around the house you could build a couple of very tall sawhorses for scaffold.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Redoverfarm on November 06, 2016, 04:16:29 PM
I'm worried that the stove won't fit in the bucket. I almost almost bought a fork attachment for the loader but was worried about fitment.. I think I will have a lot of use for those forks but it is also hard to spend money on something like that right now.

This is our stove - but it will be crated.


My neighbor is letting me borrow his flatbed trailer and some dolly type wheels. We were thinking we could have the freight truck lower the stove onto the trailer, and he could probably just use his pallet forks to slide it onto the trailer, or i could winch it. Then drive the trailer to our french door opening, jack the pallet up with my car jack and then push it onto the slab.

Open to any ideas.

The more you use your tractor the more you will learn on how to use your tractor.  Use 2" rachet straps and lift it with your bucket. Not exactly sure how far you are taking it but if it is being unloaded onto a trailer just a short distance you can just tram the tractor with the stove right up to the door.  Just build you a temporary platform to sit it on at the door and then with careful thinking you can use the bucket to push it inside.  PVC pipes (broom handles in a pinch) and plywood make a pretty good dolly.   ;D
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on November 06, 2016, 04:25:35 PM
You've got me thinking now. Thanks.

I do have ratchet straps. Get the bucket up around it as tight as possible, ratchet'er on there and giddyup.

One thing I'm worried about is pulling back on the bucket lever and the rear wheels lifting off  ;D. That has happened more than once with a full load of stone/and or dirt. I know, put weight on the 3 pt hitch, but I don't want to spend time on that right now while I have a house to weatherproof.

I have a healthy amount of concern. I feel confident that with the problem in my face things will start aligning. That has happened many times on the house. I couldn't say exactly how to set a rafter, or a 20 ft 2x12 ridge board, but with the problem in your face you can very quickly start eliminating the things that won't work, and you're just left with things that might work.

Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Redoverfarm on November 06, 2016, 04:37:48 PM
You've got me thinking now. Thanks.

I do have ratchet straps. Get the bucket up around it as tight as possible, ratchet'er on there and giddyup.

One thing I'm worried about is pulling back on the bucket lever and the rear wheels lifting off  ;D. That has happened more than once with a full load of stone/and or dirt. I know, put weight on the 3 pt hitch, but I don't want to spend time on that right now while I have a house to weatherproof.


Wasn't quite what I had in mind.  Let the stove dangle below the bucket.  Run your rachet straps under your stove on the two ends and up over the bucket with it curled down. Give your self 6" or so between to avoid damage to the stove top and your bucket.  Lift your bucket and up goes your stove off the ground.  If you need a little more height then curl your bucket back.  The lip on the bucket will give you extra lift.  If it is too much weight then it is a short journey to level ground.  Find what ever you can to hang from your 3 point hitch bars to give you some weight.  Not knowing what is available you can use concrete blocks to start with. 
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on November 06, 2016, 04:41:25 PM
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Have plenty of straps and a nylon sling that I bought for skidding logs.

Glad I don't have to get the thing up a flight of stairs.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on November 08, 2016, 12:40:58 PM
Stove's getting delivered some time tomorrow.. can't wait to get that in the house.

I installed almost all of the metal on the shed roof today - just have to do the endwall and small piece of sidewall trim. 4-12 12' off the ground is way easier to work than 7-12 25' off the ground.

Wanted to post some pics that I hadn't had a chance to take for awhile too.. will take a pic of how I am flashing the windows at some point too.

Electrical drop from where the service will come in
(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FwjNEmpu.jpg&hash=577e9911bcf61f949ff8bf22e7a214d6)

Stretch tape.. this stuff is amazing. Corners and round edges you kind of otherwise would need to caulk.. We popped conduit through the wall for future garage, barn, and hot tub. The hot tub is my idea, no.. demand.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FobJ6FNJ.jpg&hash=f3502ca5a4c5ed17e2acd0ba75de1a0f)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FWRgAtlA.jpg&hash=4970e4c4c982e7e2ebffe5245f78d7f8)

Our electrical panel.. the bottom portion can be run off on site power with the flip of a switch.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FnDKoYci.jpg&hash=0d949fc8f817b7b2a525837e8321392e)

For the 4-12 roof, because of the lower slope I am doing a backup flashing sometimes called 'bread pan' flashing. The top edge has a vertical fold so that anything water that gets past the z-trim and butyl tape will still have a lot of trouble getting into the wall. I will take some pics of installing the end wall trim too since it's easier to take the camera around with me now.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fp8yF3oq.jpg&hash=04dee0de00cf37ee4525359ab081ae65)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F3cubVmX.jpg&hash=c66ebc889d6bd972cdb9a7e767ff31a4)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FFHzTRfu.jpg&hash=ccaa690402d385b8a50e4dd3273792e3)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fz9qYRoA.jpg&hash=594c11f650a2d3c8553e4baf3f1d7e86)
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: azgreg on November 08, 2016, 01:52:30 PM
It's looking fantastic! That mud room really breaks up the profile nicely.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Rys on November 09, 2016, 06:55:24 AM
Have been really enjoying following your build.
Would love to see pictures of the inside as well!   :)
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on November 09, 2016, 12:31:48 PM
Thanks Greg and Rys. I will get more pics of the inside - I actually took a few of the upstairs but my fancy camera is not wide angle enough to capture the rooms very well. The plans have changed a little from what we first posted back in May. Upstairs, we actually forwent the closets in the 2 spare bedrooms and just framed a straight wall. Luckily we live in an area where for some reason antique furniture goes very cheaply - so we are going to purchase armoires instead of framing permanent closets. We made this change after drawing lines on the floor back in August. The rooms are a lot more flexible without losing an entire wall.

Here's the upstairs rough framing, have to use your imagination a little bit. Also note the walls are not completely plumbed up yet, I didn't have time with doing the electrical so fast. Everything is very close, though.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FKqlk1C3.jpg&hash=f318edb914f218fb733f0a7d108058e7)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FqU7GH1H.jpg&hash=d1a6a6239dbe82a2bd88a35493f2b626)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FZ7LOUnj.jpg&hash=c5efd4c8dcd41c31bae97257c8ced62d)



The stove delivery went great. The slip had shipping weight at 1000lbs , but I think it was somewhere around 850-900 in reality. Not sure. The delivery guy got a tip, he showed us how to use straps to hook the pallet in the bucket. I probably would have spent all day dragging it on the ground. Took Redover's advice and put 5 blocks on the 3 point hitch. You can see how loaded the front tires were. This is one tough tractor.

The stove is beautiful, completely hand made right here in the USA. After folding and cutting metal roof for over a month I at least have a little more respect for how talented the craftsman who made this is. We envisioned this stove as the center piece to the downstairs, and it will fit right in.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F0UKb84P.jpg&hash=36711d66778e0490d905a90836b26e1d)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FvQSnn2X.jpg&hash=6905e63e4e8979f74d5cabf1b17a24d2)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F4EutxUQ.jpg&hash=52cfd6606d095a894ad64b8a4f8aa1fa)
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Redoverfarm on November 09, 2016, 03:25:49 PM
Glad things worked out.  You might consider putting a carrier on your 3-point hitch.  This was actually a tarp rack on a tractor & trailer that I modified.  Anyone who welds can probably make you something similar.  Handier than the pocket on a shirt.  I use mine to carry all my tools when fixing fence, chainsaws and gas cutting firewood.  Before I would load it all in the bucket and when I got to my project and needed the bucket I would have to unload everything before I could use it.  In your case you can stack ballast to keep the rear of the tractor down.   I know you have a full plate now with the house but you might keep it in mind later.  Just something to make life easier.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi220.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fdd161%2Fredoverfarm%2Fscenes%2Fcountry%2520plans%2F100_4055-1.jpg&hash=5f13fd50d8d0fcacceda8ce022199b2d) (http://s220.photobucket.com/user/redoverfarm/media/scenes/country%20plans/100_4055-1.jpg.html)
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on November 13, 2016, 11:58:12 AM
That is a nice carrier, I like that idea Redover. Don't like sitting tools on the ground or against the tree, easy to lose stuff that way.

The windows are all in. Still have to zip tape most of them, but this week will be finishing up the sheathing, blocking and taping seams. Next Monday the doors are being delivered. I want to have metal - likely copper - sill pans w/ back and side dams formed and in place by the time they get there, so hopefully the doors can be put in quickly.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FE76VtbP.jpg&hash=fd45ebd2dc93ba67f083f3145398bfc7)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FidQZyCs.jpg&hash=00b0a8625571a56c36384e18106a3c1e)

Finished the shed roof too. Tried to keep that tape up pretty high because the siding will sit up a few inches leaving that metal flashing exposed. Hard to get pics of the little corner that wraps the house because of the angle of the sun. Was very careful to make all metal cuts shingle style when at all possible.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FEpeBjCs.jpg&hash=e523e819a15acfb389e1b1377dcb3420)


Almost forgot, this is how I flashed the rough window openings.

A piece of beveled siding nailed to the rough sill to create a positive slope to the exterior. The stretch tape is really nice because you don't need to make any cuts in the corner - which is where the water damage will happen first. Also, you can stretch/press the tape into the corner. Also taped the rough jamb as an extra precaution. I added an extra .5" to my vertical RO - that was actually probably a little more than I needed for the 2x4 windows as the piece of siding is not nearly that wide where it rests. I used composite horseshoe shims for the window to rest on, had to double them up for the nailing flange to find purchase on the window head.

Larry Haun made my life easy, all the window RO were so close to level we didn't really need to do any shimming or adjustments.

Also I went with stainless steel screws. We are planning to order some eastern red cedar from Maine.. delivered for around .73 cents a foot which isn't that much more than pine, and about half the price of western red cedar. Anyway, cedar reacts poorly with galvanized.


(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fwv1BIzI.jpg&hash=7e1e5d5e758fe96ea98b9a95e9cc13d2)

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Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on November 27, 2016, 10:05:44 AM
Was able to get a whole lot done before and as the weather has been turning. We got over a foot of snow last weekend.. the afternoon before it all started it was 70 degrees. We were able to get everything taped up, but had to wait for doors to be delivered.

For doors, we went with the 'in stock' big box store doors because they are so much cheaper than custom doors. We only paid 1600-1700$ for 3 french doors and the mudroom door. A single custom french door, we were quoted something like $1200-1300. Although I think that may have included storm doors.

To make 2x4 doors fit in 2x6 walls properly we removed the brick mold. Next spring I will just extend the jams and head to meet with the trim. The interior will also require a bit of customization because the inside edge of jamb is flush with the rough framing. So I will I will have to hold the drywall back a little and box that out with trim. The plus side to doing it this way is that the door threshold is probably about 5.75", and that means that it covers they entire rough sill. A perfect fit in that regard. I don't mind the extra trim work, but I can see how just purchasing custom 2x6 doors would be cheaper or roughly the same price if the labor is not your own.

The snow is great. Complete dead silence and solitude up on the mountain. Doors will be painted to match the windows, hopefully later this week we are supposed to have a few nights above freezing.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FnBV5IwU.jpg&hash=fdce250455c015fe510cac27ea47d2bb)

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I rented a metal brake from HD tool rental to make sill pans for all the door rough openings. In addition to the metal pan flashing, the entire rough opening was taped. If these doors leak I've done everything I could do to prevent them from rotting the framing.

The inset balcony required special attention, the door sits above the floor and I also framed it on a slope. The zip sheathing should be a very durable waterproof surface.

Also, to get the french doors up stairs we had to winch it up the stairwell opening. That was interesting.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FeEbq7ya.jpg&hash=f506346ad7e47d518b5d384ac5004369)

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Downstairs

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Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: HappyOne on November 28, 2016, 12:22:35 PM
Looking wonderful :)
Would love to be at that point in the journey .....  :-[
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on November 28, 2016, 06:10:20 PM

...

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FI2UZ3fa.jpg&hash=9980213c328b1c1d967aa07935bf990b)


Between the eave flashing and the balcony sill you've become quite the artist.  Maybe your street handle should be Flashmaster N!

I think the first photo in this post says it all.  Still some work to do but look how far you guys have come.  Well done!
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on December 05, 2016, 05:25:39 AM
 :) Thanks. Yeah, I have gotten comfortable working with metal. Honestly it is probably less fussy than wood because everything is actually straight. We have been getting little snow showers all the time, and it quickly becomes evident why you should install those metal sill pans - snow will sit on the door threshold then melt that same day. I will eventually tape every nail on that balcony too, but will wait until I'm about to install the finish flooring, which I think will be tile... considering actually running tile out onto the cantilever too.

We had a sunny cold day yesterday - and the balcony worked just as I hoped. I got that radiant thermometer at a farm show for a few dollars - it is really entertaining and sometimes useful.

I could comfortably sit on out there in a T- shirt.
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I also have had a few small fires in the woodstove. The draft works just as it should, even with the house being more or less the same temperature as outside when starting the fire, there is no smoking in the house. Only problem is I don't have much firewood processed, and what I did process has gotten rained/snowed on. In the next few weeks I'm going to cut down a standing Ash as those can be burned green. I'll lean a sheet of durock behind the stove before doing any big burns.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FhcXiKn3.jpg&hash=cdcdfa1245109b10b8b8d0e7531923e5)

Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Starvin on December 05, 2016, 06:48:11 AM
AWESOME stove!
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on December 07, 2016, 05:46:03 AM
Thanks Starvin... seems to be a really well made stove.

In other exciting news, we passed our rough in electrical inspection yesterday, so hopefully the power company can hook us up before Christmas.

In our area, we have one inspector for everything except electrical and septic. All the people we have dealt with have been totally reasonable.. which is invaluable. With a lot of this stuff I think the inspection only goes as well as the inspector wants it to go. The electrical code in particular is pretty ridiculous.

For final framing inspection I think all I have left is collar ties in attic, hurricane straps on rafters.. also going to strap the outriggers, the last big bit of rough framing is the stair case. I am going to see if the inspector minds if I start insulation now, though.

I am really tempted to put the hurricane straps on the inside of the house. Sick of being on a ladder in this weather. My only concern is it will make it difficult to seal the drywall to the double top plate for our air barrier.

Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Don_P on December 07, 2016, 02:23:40 PM
I've run them either way but technically they are supposed to be out on the sheathed plane. Check with the inspector before putting them inside, some do fail for that.
I usually do the stairs when I'm alone on a rainy day, then I wonder why I waited so long.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on December 07, 2016, 03:37:31 PM
Good info, thanks Don. I was going with figure 3.2k in WFCM. That does however shows the truss to the top plate then the top plate to stud.

I talked to my code guy today about insulating before final framing and he said go for it. I went for all rock wool including attic. It cost about twice as much as fiberglass but I think there are a lot of benefits to this material. Fireproof, mold and water repelling. Maybe biggest is that it should be possible to install to the spec of r23 in the walls. Ceiling is getting two courses of r30 for a total of r60. Exterior of walls getting r13 in the spring.

edit1 Starting to read a little more on the hurricane ties. Timberlok 6" screws can apparently replace them. Still need to a do a little more homework on this, but certainly would be nice.

edit2 http://www.fastenmaster.com/resources.html Going to the "Timberlok Rafter to top plate" pdf, one of those screws gives 620lbs of uplift resistance. My roof is 16" SYP rafters, 20 foot span - could bump it to 24 to include the overhangs even at 130mph winds my uplift is only at 386 or 442. Seems like this could be a nice, lazy, warm, non-slippery, way of staying inside and also getting around my worry of messing up my air seal.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on December 12, 2016, 05:08:18 AM
Do you guys have luck with the pre-manufactured rafter vents (any icicles on eaves)? buildingscience.com says you should really have a 2" air channel. That would pretty much mean ripping 2" insulation spacers, then ripping 1" insulation to 14.5". When blocking the rafters I left a 2" space.. even ripped it at the 7-12 angle.

I should probably just build the vents. We are below recommended temp for most adhesives at this point though.

Finding some spec sheets that look like the pre-manufactured have a 1.4" gap - that's a little better than the 1" gap I thought they had.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Don_P on December 12, 2016, 02:55:39 PM
I've never had a problem with the manufactured rafter chutes.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Adam Roby on December 12, 2016, 03:21:53 PM
I saw one place where the home owner installed them using staples that were about 1/2" too long and the tips were all showing out the top of the roof through the shingles.  He eventually had to bite the bullet and replace all the shingles...  just a heads up to consider, sounds obvious but it only takes a momentary lapse of judgement and you only realize when you are already done.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on December 12, 2016, 03:44:44 PM
Yeah, I was overthinking it. I took a look at the foam ones today and will look at the plastic ones tomorrow.

Adam that is something that had crossed my mind already. Sick to my stomach would be an understatement if I shot staples through the standing seam roof. Queezy just thinking about it.

Roxul is installing well. It is easy to cut it around obstacles and create cuts to wrap around the wires. It is slightly wider than the stud/joist bays so everything is held in very securely by friction.

It is really irritating my skin though. Any part of skin not covered itches and almost feels sunburnt until the following morning. Getting too itchy is what makes me call it a day.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on January 12, 2017, 02:30:16 PM
Happy New Year. Hope everyone is enjoying winter and doing well.

We're still finishing up insulation, but making steady progress. We were gone for a few weeks over the holidays, and I am finally mostly recovered from my annual dose of daycare superbug.

Winter has certainly arrived, although today we got up to the upper 40s, and it looks like we might get a streak of 40s next week too.
(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F7TL8VBa.jpg&hash=fb0ba5bbcb4d6c2659ef752f8a346979)

Downstairs insulation. You can also see my makeshift heatshield for the wood cookstove. I use a radiant gun thermometer to keep an eye on everything, and have never seen any dangerous temps anywhere.
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The attic is R-60. Criss-crossing the insulation. I am being extremely meticulous, especially at the eaves where i am making 7-12 cuts and installing the insulation on the top plate in a slim strip to guarantee I don't have any gaps or accidental compression. The east side of the attic is mostly done, and the sound deadening effect when the rain hits the steel roof is pretty impressive.
(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FpF3LVX1.jpg&hash=54ddf8d1a755976b77768626807f2c0f)

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I thought I'd snap a few pics of the woodstove too, the firebox is massive. Cookstoves are EPA exempt, so there is no air tube at the top of the stove for secondary combustion. The stove is extremely air tight, though. I have been getting some really good burns with just junk Aspen/poplar that is a little too wet around 18-20% moisture content. Once the attic is sealed off and the house is more heatable, I can't wait to see how it performs. Also my 10 yards of concrete slab is fighting against me right now, rather than acting as sort of a thermal mass flywheel.

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The oven is porcelain, and the bottom part slides out so you can put it in the sink to clean it.

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Once the insulation is finished, I still need to install the stairs, and then do the rough in plumbing. Both should be straightforward. I have spent a lot of time preparing for drywalling. I am planning to use drywall clips at most corners/ceiling area that don't have adequate support - creating floating corners to help eliminate cracks. My lumber supplier does carry 54" drywall, so I will be able to use that to have only one horizontal seam on my walls. Also have been researching how to float butted seams with a 'buttboard'. Not sure I will be able to find the real product around here, but fine homebuilding has a DIY picture on how some guys do it. I also found on a drywall message board a professional said that he will use a table saw to rip OSB boards at a ~5% angle to create the slight drywall depression at the butt joint.

Best resource by far is Myron Ferguson. His old 90s video is better than the new one. His newest book has plethora of information. I have yet to read a bad Taunton Press book. They are the best. If anyone has drywalling tips or suggestions feel free to say.

I almost forgot, we also have power now. I installed one GFI plug and picked up one of those construction light stands. It's awesome to have light now. And with heat, I am not limited to daytime hours anymore.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Redoverfarm on January 12, 2017, 03:25:43 PM
They have came a long way designing wood Cookstoves over the years.  I can't believe the size of that firebox.  The 1926 model I have is only 8WX10HX16L.  The load door itself is considerably less than that.  I don't know how they cooked with them but they did and did so well.  I would imagine that they spent more time just adding wood than they did cooking. 

If I could get this snail motivated internet to improve I would post a picture.

Finally.  If you look at the upper left door that is the firebox load door.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi220.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fdd161%2Fredoverfarm%2Fhightop%2F100_3273-1.jpg&hash=f07f9a6a09fc70c8ce5569ecd50c1318) (http://s220.photobucket.com/user/redoverfarm/media/hightop/100_3273-1.jpg.html)
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on January 12, 2017, 03:48:56 PM
The only thing I've done so far is heat up coffee.

I have read that the cookstoves are more forgiving of temperature variation when baking. We won't find out until early spring or until next fall though. Using one of those woodstove temperature gauges near where the flu exit is, when I am running at around 500F, the oven usually hovers around 325F when shut off.

Your cookstove is a beauty. I love those old ones. With that size of a firebox they really are just for cooking. Are you planning to hook it up to that flu? It actually looks like the cooking oven on yours may be a little bigger than mine.

I have found with this stove,  if I load the fire box right - open the built in damper and light her up, the stove can climb to 500F in 20-30 minutes. Once the chimney is up to temperature, close the damper. Once the wood is burning good, I have a top and bottom vent on the firebox door I can start to shut down. It is surprisingly forgiving. I figured out the other day if I really want to go nuts I can open the ash tray door and firebox goes absolutely crazy - almost frightening. The stove used to come with another air control underneath the grate because the stove is designed to be able to burn coal. The body is all 1/4 inch steel.

I have already learned a lot about it, but I think I still have more to figure out.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Redoverfarm on January 12, 2017, 04:02:12 PM
I haven't actually baked anything but have used the cooktop several times.  The warming ovens are really nice to keep things warm.  Never had an occasion but once to use the water jacket.  It definitely will be a learning curve trying to prepare a complete meal and maintain the constant temperature to bake goods.  My grandmother did it everyday of adult life and never complained.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Don_P on January 13, 2017, 03:40:40 AM
I had one similar to John's, it got in the way in the kitchen so it went down to the shop before it got in the way there. I did bake biscuits in it and cooked on the top a few times. They are a pain to keep in wood, glad it was part of my Dad's chores and not mine!

Be careful with that roaring, ash door open burn... It doesn't take as much as I thought to really warp steel  d*. I was working on an antebellum log house years ago. Folks stopped by and some had stories. One lady came by and introduced herself. Her family had lived there. One morning her father had lit the cookstove and didn't realize the water jacket had frozen overnight. With the outlets plugged and a fire, it made steam and killed him. The heat exchanger was already burned out in mine, if you go to use one make sure to flow check it. I like the idea but potential steam scares me.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on January 20, 2017, 01:21:34 PM
Finally just about done with the insulation. Been crawling around in the attic running my vent lines for the past few days.. not fun. The rest I'll at least be standing upright.

I should be able to install the stairs next week. I do have a question about U-stairs. I want the landing to be flat and rectangular - I don't want the upper set of stringers to land on the landing.

I think I have two options here, but don't know how the pros normally do this -

1) cut the bottom of the stringers flat, and use joist hangers to to the hold the bottom of the stringer. I think I would then need to double the rim board of the landing so that I can use 16d nails to hold the stringers in.

2) Build the landing as an L shape - so that the upper stringer bears down directly on the landing, but the finished area is still rectangular. This would be more work to frame, but not much. Also I still have a little PTSD from driving all those hangers into the LVLs.  :D

Otherwise, the plan is three #1 SYP 2x12 stringers for each section. Stringer length should be less than 7 ft.

Thanks for any input.

Here's a picture of the area I'm talking about.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FH0WKDrx.png&hash=39a64ef7bbd76382709d6ecda7f4bb03)
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Rys on January 22, 2017, 07:54:48 AM
Will be curious to see which you go with. I'm trying to figure how to fit a u stair into my 1 1/2 story build so I can access the basement as well.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on January 22, 2017, 03:34:11 PM
Yeah, working out the details now. i might actually have to put a stair step on the landing. my walls are 8' 5 1/8" instead of the standard 8 ... add on a 2x12 floor, 3/4 inch subfloor and 3/4 hardwood floor upstairs (slab as finished floor downstairs) and i have too much total rise for 13 stair treads.

The other thing that i need to be careful on is that code wants 36" net tread width, the rail is sorta excluded but i think i need to measure from the inside edge of the balusters.

No regrets on taller ceilings, but there always unintended consequences to every little thing you do.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Rys on January 22, 2017, 03:38:14 PM
I'm still in the planning and I'm already doing a lot of head scratching!    ???


Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on January 22, 2017, 03:39:39 PM
Most of my hair's gone at this point.  ;D
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Don_P on January 22, 2017, 07:02:00 PM
Stairs will do that  :)
Where you have the red circle above, I've drawn a level line the width of 2x4 or 6 and cut the bottom of the stringe level then build a wall that height under the stringers outside of the platform framing. I line up the studs with the platform framing and cleat pieces of ply across them to knit it together.

I start all figuring from top of finishes and then work mt way down through the material thicknesses to arrive at the stringer layout. Remember the flooring on the floors and landing is usually 3/4 while the treads are usually 1-1/16 thick... but check all the materials before working.

Yes the walking surface and walls need to be 36 or wider, the rails can encroach into that space.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on January 23, 2017, 03:03:30 AM
Thanks Don.. the wall under the stringer is simpler than extending the landing under that portion.

We do need that extra stair, it actually looks like we can extend the lower half of the U flight one extra stair - the bottom stair will protrude around 2.5" in front of the hemlock post. It might actually tie together pretty nicely that way. Also raising the landing another ~7.5" does not get to close to the lowered stairwell window. I think we will go with that instead of a step on the landing.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Don_P on January 23, 2017, 02:25:31 PM
I'd make sure to put a nice curve on the projecting bottom riser and tread. Somebody I know real well curved the tread on the projecting bottom tread but squared off the riser underneath it. I've He's stubbed his poor toe on it more times than I he can count walking by in the dark d*
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on January 24, 2017, 06:06:20 AM
 :) If you knew my wife you'd say to make it out of foam. We have single hungs instead of casements because outswing windows are a multiple times a day head hazard.   ;D
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on January 29, 2017, 02:53:58 PM
Been wrapping up lots of odds and ends. The insulation is basically done - we have to position a few pieces in the attic, still have to run our upstairs bathroom vent out - and wrap it in insulation. Pretty quick job.

The big one for the past few days was all the plumbing drains and vents. Our upstairs bathroom toilet had to cross through a bunch of joists and 22 around the stove pipe - luckily 2x12 can suffer a 3 5/8 hole in them.. there is no wiggle room for getting anything wrong though. I probably spent 2 days thinking about it, 1 day laying it out and a half day double checking before I started drilling. Glad I did, it came out perfect.  Everything runs from the slab up and out the attic at this point. Also includes a 3" radon stack vent that went through a couple joists.

Today I was doing layout for the staircase. Used my plumb bob to transfer the stair opening to the slab, and took my exact floor to floor height measurement. This kind of stuff takes a long time with primitive tools. The slab is not perfectly level, but dang close. I wanted to be positive that my floor to floor measurements were the same - or i accounted for any differences between the U stair landing and the upstairs. That is a tricky measurement to take. I was about to break out my clear hose for water level.. and had no water.. considering melting snow on the stove. Then I broke down and bought a Bosch plumb/level laser. Wow that thing is awesome. It turned 1 hr job of transferring the stair opening to slab to 5 minutes. Seems like a game changer. Transferring the landing height from below where the upper stringer terminates is a simple fast job now.

I checked the level line from the laser level (which is automatic) against my 4' stabila level and they were identical. I think this tool could make a whole lot of finish jobs easier. Antique doors that need finish jambs and head probably wouldn't be too bad with this rig.

Anyway last comment about the stairs, everything I have read and watched says divide out your total rise to get your riser height, then round to the nearest 16th.. well this can cause a pretty big compound error over 15 risers.. 1/4-3/8" by the time you get to the last step. I am thinking to round each riser to the nearest 16th, giving 1/16th of variation every second step or so. Maybe thinking about this too much but uneven stairs are no fun to walk.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Ff808YAY.jpg&hash=9c0e7087cd80f4def56b7d76c9b461f2)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FILJc7aU.jpg&hash=6c34378cfd801c9c309c174e5df0f1d7)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FMriu74J.jpg&hash=6aa2e9d220698c92186a40894f193aaa)

Finished insulation. Highs in the 20s or low 30s and lows in the 10s, usually around 42 inside in the morning, have 1 fire to bring it to the mid 50s. Still losing tons of heat through ceiling without an air barrier. Really happy with performance so far though.
(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FN1uRVfm.jpg&hash=2f9fc38bcd7944a195d246117e6a6d9c)


Laser level sitting on the ladder.
(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FHmW653v.jpg&hash=5f447f481dd5a720012eda84497a0573)


Here's my stair calculation I was talking about.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F9XShvsG.png&hash=a2a361076dfc1c711c5fc7b2f63fb03c)
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Don_P on January 30, 2017, 04:39:37 PM
Sweet, I got the pinpoint version of the same laser, a friend got the crosshairs.. much better.
It looks like you figured it out, the elevations come from where you land on the concrete, it may not be in plane with what is above. Make sure you are calculating elevations from finished surfaces. I'm assuming nothing on the slab.

"Stepping off" with a square (and hopefully a pair of square nuts) is one way to do stairs or rafters, it is prone to cumulative error, especially if you are rounding. Use a knife rather than a pencil. I like that you understand to use the cumulative numbers. The ones that will be of most use is the cumulative hypotenuse (stringer) numbers. I prefer the innermost corner points of each step running up the stringer. You can then use a straight snapped line on the stringer up the inside notch corners rather than following an edge which now doesn't have to be perfectly straight.

You can get the hypotenuse length per step using Pythagoras , square root of (rise squared + run squared). Have the cumulative sequence of that in hand when you layout. Layout the first step using your square. Measure perpendicular in from the edge to the inside edge of the step. Go to the top of the stringer and measure in the same amount. Snap a line and layout the sequence up the line from that first step inside corner. Now make sure the square layouts hit that corner, you may need to shift the square up and down the stringer to get first the rise then the run to intersect there. If you are following me and if you are having to shift, this is not of concern, it is showing the factory edge is not perfectly straight.

Master class, following that logic, you can shallow up the line preserving more unnotched stringer. Move the line say 1" closer to the upper edge of the stringer. Now you'll really need to slide the square, with square nuts riding the edge of the board, back and forth to hit the inside corners. The notches will not come to a point on that top edge there will be short sections of the factory edge in that last little bit of the outer corner... you don't need that corner, your stringer just got 1" deeper, major.

Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on January 31, 2017, 04:23:21 AM
Don.. that is an awesome way to do it... I was on the right track with actual cumulative riser, but the actual cumulative hypotenuse is much better. I don't think I would have gotten that, at least not in time for my stringers - haha.

Makes sense to leave an extra ~1 inch of unnotched stringer too - whatever is going on at that outside corner is irrelevant for making your rise/run marks.

Once the stringer is in front of me it will probably fully click, but along my straight line I make my marks for cumulative hypotenuse (inside corner of rise/run intersection). If I connect the dots with the rafter square, and make sure my run is always 10" that would guarantee the rise is correct. I think I follow what you're saying with the rafter nuts - my rise and run could be set exactly correct, but because the edge of the stringer is deformed, I may have to mark the rise, then slide the rafter square up or down a small amount to mark the run. And then between marking the rise and run for a stringer with no outside corner intersection you would need to slide the square for each individual rise/run.

edit: I did a stringer like this today. It looks like everything came out just right.

Kind of hard to explain, just making sure I understand the square nuts to speed the process up. I know I could technically put the rafter square at 10" for the run on one inside stair corner, then pivot the square until it intersects the inside corner below. Just would be a little more time comsuming that way.

I have read a few stair making books, and watched some videos.. I have not seen it put this way anywhere and this seems like a more intuitive way to me. It also will produce the most accurate steps possible. And especially on long straight flights it seems like a good idea to leave a little extra stringer for that span. The most recent stair book I read suggested using LVLs for stringers - that is a really expensive way to do it.

Thank you for sharing this.

The laser.. I was using it today and what a time saver and accuracy improvement. And especially working alone, sometimes you need a third hand even without holding the level. There's no going back now.

Also did want to mention the stairs are being planned for keeping the slab as the finished floor. If we decide to put down hardwood in the future it will screw up the bottom step. I did frame out french doors on a 2x so that there was space for a wood floor. It is what it is.

Also yesterday never got above 19 or 20 and one big fire took it from 42 to 62. House is performing pretty awesome I'd say. I think the slab temp is finally rising and helping to hold/release heat at night. Will have to shoot the temp gauge at it today.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Don_P on January 31, 2017, 07:08:36 PM
 [cool]... I've never been able to explain that to someone without showing them before.
I can't remember if I mentioned it here. I cover the stringers with 3/4 ply for subtreads and risers glued and ring shanked on then glue and screw the finish risers and treads on from the backside wherever I can reach. I usually apply the subtreads and risers to the bottom, top, middle and then fill the rest. This lets me crank the stringers into line better. I then have a solid temporary set and a good base to work from... of course account for those thicknesses when laying out.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on February 01, 2017, 04:15:31 AM
That sounds like a nice way to beef them up. I already cut a stringer for the lower flight. I think all I'd have to do is take another 3/4" off the bottom if I do that. I had been planning to put on temporary treads until after drywall at the least.. but realistically I will not do most finishes until we are already living in the house.

It also sounds like you do not cut a housed stringer. With finish treads glued and screwed in place, and the subtreads things must stay together pretty good? I will not lose any sleep if a couple years down the road there is a seasonal crack between the tread and skirt board, but would be nice to not have that. I had been intending to leave a 1.5" (2x spacer) or so space for drywall and skirt board, then to butt the finish treads up against that.

I was also just planning on using a hanger board with as many 16d ring shank as I can reasonably put into each stringer and then to the rim joist. Also if my foam glue isn't shot from yesterday I will probably put some of that on there. Do you think there is a better way to do this? Guessing build walls whenever possible? I probably could actually do that, but I am trying to not lose too much space under the stairs as it is going to be a pantry and storage area.  I haven't been too concerned with this set of stairs. Because of the landing I am spanning <5 ft with each stringer. If this was a straight flight I would have done the 300lb point load calculation.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Don_P on February 01, 2017, 07:34:21 AM
Just in to check the dog between pours. Yes 3/4 off the bottom, 3/4 off the upper back for the riser padding. Well nailed ply hanger is fine, deduct for its thickness. A strap hanging from the rim and then under the stringer is another. Yes a 2x4 flush to the outside bottom of the stringer against the wall, slide the stringer to the wall scribe the bottom on the studs, slide out the stringer and nail the 2x4 to the studs, slide stringer in and nail to 2x4.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on February 01, 2017, 02:13:10 PM
Thanks again Don. Looks like everything fits really good - I did take your advice and leave the stringer with an extra inch of depth, so the outside edge of my rise and run do not intersect on the lumber. Really like that idea. I guess I should trim 3/4" off the top plumb cut of the stringer. I had planned to add a sub-riser on that one too, but I guess it is pretty redundant with the hanger boards.

Finally remembered my camera today and took pics of the process, but left the camera there when I returned tonight.  d* Will post them tomorrow hopefully.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Don_P on February 01, 2017, 06:29:58 PM
I've never mortised the skirts for the risers and treads on this type, that is certainly a fine way to do it. I block the skirt zone and run them then with scraps of plywood and the screwgun mock up perfect templates for each stair. That will open more gap than the housed stairs. That is a plywood jig and a router, not bad, I do that with timber stairs.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on February 02, 2017, 01:15:10 PM
Ok got some pics of the stairs..


My rise and run is in the neighborhood of 7 5/8 and 10". Set that on the square, marked on stringer. Took a square and measured in to that depth then subtracted 1" from that. I went to the other end of the board and measured in that amount, snapped a chaulk line.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FLf08rlt.jpg&hash=95ee1945e60a61ef12ccd9b9881cbe35)

Then using a tape measure, and in my case I have a tablet with spreadsheet for my actual hypotenuse measurements, and mark them down the stringer. Double check, then triple check measurements if something was wrong on the double check. You can see I had to scratch one mark out.
(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FuPX7KZX.jpg&hash=87b2fc693f98a41024f4beddefc3617e)

Here is the interesting part, to get the square to intersect with the actual hypotenuse marks, you have to slide the square up and down the the stringer to get your intersection. Intuitively, if you forget the rise and run numbers, and think in terms of the rafter square creating plumb and level lines I think it makes sense.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FTcOoq3Z.jpg&hash=6b57b090fa4569bc214bf6fd619fb20a)

Flipping the rafter square over shows from hypotenuse mark to hypotenuse mark I have my correct rise and run. And you can see the missing corner that does not effect the strenth of the stairs.
(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FZ7GqdCI.jpg&hash=4b378bb982a91d77aef569ff9f0da47a)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F98dSuEl.jpg&hash=d538b313cb98a1d378124b15a0d685ee)

Doing a dry fit. I left an extra 3/4" on the subfloor which I cut off once the stringers were attached to the hangerboard. Right now the extra 3/4" is still useful for making sure my overall run is correct.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F3DULFbI.jpg&hash=ee4d426e390bf4a285133e61f8047017)

Making sure my rise from landing is exact.
(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FCjnfDaO.jpg&hash=b710f316df1153eebf5526b7382d4f38)

Upper stringers mostly installed.
(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FyPrzfSy.jpg&hash=680da6418f3b829c459d31fdadec2369)

Still need to build the wall under the lower part of stringer, but for now I put a bunch of ringshank 16d through the rim board into the stringers.
(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FWXvsqAK.jpg&hash=f5de58e425a9122044edabfa6bd01cb3)

The lower stringers are not in yet, just wanted to see how they will look.
(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FMwobHwk.jpg&hash=84ff35d82c30a28f2c779ab96efc60f8)

The extra stair step because of our 8' 5" ceilings is actually going to end up being a good thing. The space underneath the landing will make a great storage area, Good space under the lower flight of stringers too. Under the second flight of stairs will be our pantry.

Just want to thank Don P again for awesome insights on creating strong accurate stairs.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Don_P on February 02, 2017, 03:54:47 PM
 [cool]
I love it when a plan comes together  :D
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Rys on February 04, 2017, 09:32:37 AM
Love all the detail you and Don_P show. Very informative.
Can you tell me what your stair footprint is?
Thanks!
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on February 04, 2017, 02:31:43 PM
Thanks Rys. I got walls built and set the lower stringers.

The rough opening width is 6' 7" wide. The depth (from upstairs hallway edge to exterior wall) opening is 8' 3.5". The 6x6 posts are a little narrower than the 6' 7"... ah I can't find my note with that measurement it might be like 6' 4" which is pretty tight but as posts it works - it will be code legal but I am glad my entire opening isn't that width.

If you have to follow the IRC stair code be careful of making these dimensions too tight. You have to allow space for drywall and skirtboards - on one side of the stairs that would shrink the width by about 1.25" - on both sides now we're talking 2.5". If you had all sides of the U stair walled up you lose 5" if everything is tight tight tight.. now if you intended to frame your rough opening at 6' 7".. some of your lumber is a bent here and there, or you just wound up .5" off you gotta get everything perfectly centered..

If you don't have to follow code my personal opinion if you needed to make rise a little higher than 7.75" and the finished width a little less than 36" you'd be fine. I have walked up the bare stringers and even 7 5/8 rise 'feels' shallow - it's nice, but I am wondering if the code is a lot more strict than what most pre - IRC houses have. I am leaving the the living room side open (railing). Hopefully I can snake furniture up there ok. Sure is interesting how those manufactured circular stairs are exempt from all the rules that you have to follow if you are building them yourself.


I got the lower stringers set and walls built. By the way I had to switch from a powder actuated concrete nailer to tap cons. The nailer goes in fine to mortar/block but the second one I put into the slab created a little crater. Might have something to do with how polished the top of the slab is.
(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FRffA9u4.jpg&hash=6f9bcfd4be2866a981682df67f095355)

Might be kind of hard to see, but in between the center wall I built and that stringer I nailed a 2x spacer so I can slide my drywall and then skirtboard down in there. Then when I put on the finish hardwood treads I can butt them up against the skirt board to hide any gap.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FV46eezq.jpg&hash=bb7c330cd875e3363e6cc7410e71ddd7)

We are also running the pex water lines. We went with the expansion fittings and are doing just an old school trunk and branch system. It was about $300 than rigging up a manifold and I wasn't too keen on drilling a dozen or more holes through the LVL. If we used the "Viega" system, with the manabloc and crimp fittings the cost may have been more doable for home run. Either way our runs are quite short base on our small house and I hope and don't think we will be waiting too long for hot water upstairs. Downstairs the shower should almost immediately get hot water.

Trying to get everything lined up for drywall delivery this Friday.

Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on February 12, 2017, 07:25:12 AM
Still doing lots of odds and ends... in good shape though. Once I was sure that all my clearances were good on the stairs, they went together very quickly. I believe smallest to largest rise is within 1/16th.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F1b1fVgD.jpg&hash=5775620e058879ec0e96828198a8120f)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FIvbF3aj.jpg&hash=1d4ab637c26e2b168b095dfa84a49a00)

I got the drywall delivered on Friday. The little Ford tractor saved the day again.. I plowed a lane to the french doors for the fork lift to roll right up. It was 9F when I started it up by the way... really impressive. Because our ceilings are around ~ 8' 5" we bought a bunch of 54" drywall that just fit through the opening without having to turn all of them on end. The upstairs balcony would have been a good entry point for a boom truck, but it was broken down. Which meant we had to carry all of our drywall upstairs through the stairwell. My parents helped me get everything upstairs.. these were not 4x8 sheets either. Lots of 4.5 x 12, 4 x 14, 4 x 12 and 4 x 10. Not much 4 x8 at all actually.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FIoR8X8J.jpg&hash=e927849eb3e7e3c449e3a8cb7ad18f5b)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FYZTY36f.jpg&hash=95134d6b5a8091ff613670385fd3a257)

You can also see we bought our upstairs tub already. I want to plumb that before doing the downstairs drywall so I am not plumbing it blindly from above. The American Standard steel enamel tubs are really nice and affordable. They feel like cast iron without the weight and cost.
(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FJTTtJnD.jpg&hash=6e77d0a484abbe0181ebfdd51ee65e59)

Drywall lifts are surprisingly inexpensive, you can get them on ebay for $125 to your door.
(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FEhSHwt5.jpg&hash=0809fb8070c3aa02bc366b56125297a1)

The downstairs also got furred out on 16" centers. This helped minimize butted seams and the 1/2" light weight stuff will stay straighter than if I did 24". The LVL was also in the way of the drywall.
(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F8G8qiym.jpg&hash=0839e1c22934be8ee0e5503b2387749d)

Just a few other thoughts.. Myron Ferguson has the best drywall information I could find. Again published by Taunton Press.

I used my house plans to come up with my drywall layout/estimate.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FDfAWHO3.png&hash=26e9b85e61e84e3a8f5b15ac0baf7a79)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FHNBR8Kh.png&hash=93ec22e7a0e7e638a98607c893ea1e40)

 Also you see no plastic on the walls or ceilings. I think plastic is a really terrible building material, and am avoiding it in the walls by putting in >11.25 R-value exterior insulation. On the ceilings we were able to get vapor retarding primer with a permeability of less than 1.0... which meets the code. It is not has harsh as plastic though. Condensation in the walls happens by air movement, not by diffusion. Air movement could cause some water to get trapped if you have plastic in your walls. I think this building practice started in the 70s and inertia is a heck of a thing. Plastic has no capacity to store changes in humidity, whereas wood can absorb lots of water before you start seeing water actually condense on it, and cause mold or rot.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Rys on February 12, 2017, 10:12:13 AM
Since progress!
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on February 27, 2017, 04:21:20 PM
Been hanging lots of drywall. Can't imagine doing ceilings without the lift. Especially those 16 footers.. they bend so much I think you would need at least 3 people - one to support the middle to lift them that way. The other nice thing with the lift is that you can get everything centered - doing that while two people are holding a panel up would probably be pretty tough if you don't do it every day.

Drywall router is also another must have for doing a whole house. Not just for electrical boxes, but it also can be used to cut open all your windows.

Some exciting news is that before putting the drywall up one of the building inspectors stopped by and approved plumbing, framing and insulation. So all I have left is final inspection. That feels great.

For drywall - my downstairs interior is about 19' 1" which is too long to run without a butted seam. I staggered the seams - which I now think was unnecessary, with the plan of 'floating' the joints and creating a board to pull the drywall upward to create a slight depression. I really did not like the idea of trying to use mud to hide the bump - an additive process to hide a bump just seems like trouble.

Anyway, the first board I tried didn't work - I used hardboard on the edges which is 1/8" thick - this created way too deep of a depression. If it was 1/16" it might have worked.

This one didn't work:
(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Faemk1YF.jpg&hash=e8cb6d1f3884ed848921deb07d4537f8)

Instead I used my table saw to rip 7/16 OSB to 7" wide. Then raised the blade to 3.5" and set it to a 3 degree angle. With a featherboard I was able to rip a depression into the boards that worked great.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FIoBNA7e.jpg&hash=fd0737caa063d861521ec8d32e5cf1ee)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fq9JBkyk.jpg&hash=d5aab7c291408e8e17aa675de3314688)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FK7bjudf.jpg&hash=3725d2b57a125a8f1e4414429741888c)

This is what I mean by 'floating' a joint - the edge is in between furring strips (or studs, joists, rafters). Unintuitive, but in the land of butted seams this is supposed to create a stronger joint that is less likely to crack or 'ridge'.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FMwa0TXz.jpg&hash=c864f7f432780c9bde160154382686cd)

Attached the board - screws every 4-6 inches.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FQ93tBQW.jpg&hash=6a8053074f939aa4feddca8d85ed2ef6)

Using the lift to do the work

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fv9gNQIU.jpg&hash=deed23f62f860c287d80d017aff501c4)

I took a few pictures of the joint - hard to get a good one. The depth is similar to the tapered seems on the long edges of drywall, but it goes out wider, so it will require more mud to make level, but there should be no bump (if I am any good at mudding).

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F00clkzS.jpg&hash=ddffea2b05efee610a41ec4ac6946070)

The angle of the light is exaggerating the depth in this picture - but you can see it is quite a bit wider than a normal tapered joint.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FFYYmh67.jpg&hash=d67592ecec643923079e2ee28941c819)

I was able to take a picture of one through down along the furring strips to show the back side.
(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FSWsaWAJ.jpg&hash=0c024b8092a0e0baf54f1dc9a30137ed)

Some other progress pictures. The 8' 4.5" ceilings do feel noticeably larger than a normal house. Really glad we did that. The 16' piece of drywall that goes around the stove pipe also goes around the plumbing bulkhead, and the stairwell post. That was a heck of a thing to cut, and again to slip it into there without a lift would have been impossible without damaging something.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FEZcnb2H.jpg&hash=75ccb765d0384235063097f9f73de464)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FKFDnIWc.jpg&hash=344dc8a5088121506f81b97abbd3a73e)

Anyway I thought that the butted seam thing was pretty cool. Still a bunch more to hang before I start mudding. Winter is breaking already which is pretty weird. Haven't even needed a fire half the time for the past week or two.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: dablack on February 28, 2017, 04:38:26 AM
Looks great!  It shows how an owner builder goes the extra mile for his own house.  There is no way a drywall crew would have taken such care. 

Also, I don't know if you are done with insulation or not, but between the window and the framing (on the inside), I sprayed the low expansion spray foam.  It really made sure the windows are air tight in the frame.  I got a thermal camera and took pictures of everything.  That little area of foam made a big difference.

thanks
Austin
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Rys on February 28, 2017, 05:46:32 AM
Looks great!
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on February 28, 2017, 06:23:29 AM
Thanks Austin and Rys.

My mentality for the whole build is that if something doesn't come out right, or if I ever have trouble with something, I don't want it to be because I cut corners. So far, if anything breaks, if the house sinks into the ground, the roof collapses, the drywall is wavy, the plumbing leaks, I will at least take solace that I did everything I could to prevent it.

We have been doing so many different tasks lately it is almost impossible to mention them all.

I actually did pressure test my water lines despite it not being required by code.. the expansion pex did leak in a few places, I do not know if 100 PSI air pressure leaks would translate to water leaks, but I wanted to know before closing up the walls. The plumbing supplier warned  that expansion pex can leak if you expand it at low temps (I think we did a few joints when it was 40s F inside). Anyway, I put my heat gun on the joints that leaked and watched it with my radiant heat gun thermometer to make sure I didn't take it over it's heat rating. The heat 'activated' the pex A memory and stopped all the leaks. Been holding around 100psi for close to a week now.

I am planning to seal all the window gaps, did a few of them then ran out of foam that day. That's another one.. the 'great stuff' foam is the best type I've used by far, but whatever it gets on, it does not come off. Once cured, it is hard and durable - the stuff that looks like shaving cream is all flaky after curing. I don't trust that. Once you open the can, you have to use all of it.. it clogs up really quickly. I still haven't learned my lesson to always wear gloves when using that stuff.

Another one while I'm thinking of it, the 7-12 roof with standing seam sheds snow better than just about any roof I've seen around here. Even the 4-12 on the north side is dropping snow just about as fast as my 9-12 ag metal shed roof. My only regret is that I should have just popped the plumbing and radon vent out the gable wall.. I was concerned about following the code to the letter, but I think my code guys would have had no problem with me doing that.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: dablack on March 01, 2017, 05:07:19 AM
We obviously don't have the same snow issues as you do, but since I was going with a metal roof, I didn't want to need to go up there for some time.  I have zero roof penetrations.  The big septic vent goes out the gable end.  I can't remember the details right now but I THINK as long as it is a certain distance from any operational windows or doors, then it is fine by code.  Going through the gable end eliminates the expensive roof gasket stuff and an obvious leak point.  Also, like you said, for you northern guys, it isn't in the way of shedding all that weird white stuff.   I will warn that before I got the cover on it, a bird did try and build a nest in there. 

Austin
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: UK4X4 on March 04, 2017, 12:59:24 AM
All my vents exit the gable ends too and passed inspection, but again no windows close on that end of the house.

Definitely better than having multiple perforations and leak paths.

Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on March 06, 2017, 02:33:21 PM
Yep, no disagreement here. Smart way to do it. I was a little concerned about smell, or that radon is more dense than air and that if a window is open having any issues.

Anyway, still hanging drywall. Lots of progress, less to do than has been done.

Spending more time thinking about finishes. If I can figure out the logistics, I would like to tile our balcony. I ordered the TCNA handbook, which I think is sort of the tiling equivalent of the wood frame construction manual.

Anyhow, a cost saving idea I have is to cut stone from our property in to tile.

Diamond blade goes right through this stuff. I think it would look awesome in the end. Last summer the stone I used for fire rings turned orange after being heated. That could be interesting too I think. I think this shale is basically compressed and/or heated silt.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FAr7UY6B.jpg&hash=c46a87e81aa17d48fedcbc75e64400b1)
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on March 06, 2017, 06:07:07 PM
Tiling with stone you quarry yourself would be simply perfect.  I have a vague recollection of you discussing the tile before.  Did you beef up the balcony joists to minimize bounce?  That slate tile may need a floor deflection of no more than L/720.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on March 15, 2017, 04:32:32 AM
The joists can handle the L/720. Thankfully #1 SYP 2x12. They are on 24" centers so the tiling book may suggest some reinforcement between joists - but on the inset portion of the balcony I believe my sloped sheathing already accomplishes that.

The tiling book was a good purchase, it is good to see all the schematics rather than trying to apply principles. It looks like because my upstairs bathroom is on 24" centers they want me to put down an additional underlayment, which is probably fine because I want my tile to be relatively level with the wood floor I put down in the hallway (thinking wide plank pine?).

We got over 2 feet of snow yesterday, and a looks like another 3-6" today. What a storm. It's good knowing that the roof can handle several more feet no problem.

The drywall is nearly finished, mainly just the bathroom, and small odd shapes in the upstairs hallway, bedrooms, and the area under the stairs still needs to get framed. Almost ready to try mudding.

We ordered all our breakers. In NYS someone convinced code enforcement that 'arc fault' breakers are necessary. The breakers for our small house cost $750. According to an electrician I talked to, unless you have aluminum wire in your walls and you put in new boxes made for copper, arcs are a virtual impossibility, and that some kind of lobbying probably was going on to make this a law.

We have done a great job sticking to our budget. Things average out when you estimate generously and then add 20-30%. But we have spent about $3060 on electrical - no labor in that. Still have to buy fixtures and plugs etc. Another $2264 on plumbing - still need the pressure tank but have the hot water heater. This does not include well pump - which the well stuff - excluding drilling (again no labor costs in any of this) we are at $1342.

Stuff that goes in the wall and ground that you will never see... over $6500. That number is close to what we spent on lumber excluding sheathing I think. I also have no idea how you would make any of this stuff cost less, I think these are pretty much fixed expenses in any build with 3 bedrooms and 2 baths. Makes the idea of trying to save money by building your house on stilts seem silly.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: pmichelsen on March 15, 2017, 05:06:51 AM
Arc faults for outlets is a NEC requirement, so don't feel too bad.

Thanks for posting those numbers, I'm trying to budget for an addition to our place and that gives me a ballpark.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: jsahara24 on March 16, 2017, 04:13:34 AM
We ordered all our breakers. In NYS someone convinced code enforcement that 'arc fault' breakers are necessary. The breakers for our small house cost $750. According to an electrician I talked to, unless you have aluminum wire in your walls and you put in new boxes made for copper, arcs are a virtual impossibility, and that some kind of lobbying probably was going on to make this a law.

I hear you on this, I am building north of you and our inspector quickly informed me that the regular breakers weren't going to cut it.  What I find interesting is I went to lowes to purchase my breakers and they only have 1 or 2 arc fault breakers hanging up on the wall.  The majority of the breakers they sell are "not in compliance", frustrating to say the least.  The arc fault breakers add up quick at 45$/piece!  Seems silly to me......

Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on March 25, 2017, 03:18:04 PM
Drywall is hung and all the seams upstairs have been taped, and I have started the second coat on a bunch of it.

Just want to throw in my 2 cents out on taping. There is a lot of information out there and everyone has their own way of doing things. Maybe this will help someone in the future when they are doing their research.

It took me awhile to filter through everything and finally figure out these basic important concepts.

There are 3 types of joint compound most people use.

1) Setting compound. It comes as a powder in bags. I've only seen it available in setting times of 20, 45, and 90 minutes. It is the strongest type of compound, even the 'easy sand' stuff you do not want to have to sand at all. I am pretty sure setting compound is actually just plaster.

The next two are 'drying compounds.' If they start to get thick you can add water to thin them out again. They will last for like 6 months in the bucket. Everything is marketed as 'all purpose' but most stores actually carry two types.

2) Taping compound. Should come in a green lid. Taping compound has a lot of glue in it, and is hard to sand. Way easier to sand than setting compound though. This should only be used to bed paper tape. It needs to be thinned down to cake batter consistency to ensure it 'runs' under the tape so you do not get any bubbling.

3) Topping compound. Should come in a blue lid. It has much less glue in it, is easier to sand and shrinks less. You should use this for everything except bedding the tape. This should not be thinned down with water if possible, so that it shrinks as little as possible.

Prior to taping seams, any crack, hole, or damaged area over 1/8th inch or so should be prefilled with either topping compound (if allowed to dry 24hrs) or setting compound.

Next would be the tape itself. Paper tape vs mesh tape. Paper tape can be bedded in taping compound. Mesh tape has to be bedded in setting compound. Some people claim that mesh tape is easier, and maybe that is true for small jobs, but I really couldn't imagine taping an entire house with setting compound at this point. Paper tape creates a stronger joint. Mesh tape is mold resistant.

I picked up a $40 drywall banjo on amazon which was a great investment. It made taping go really fast, and more importantly guaranteed there was an adequate amount of compound under the tape. I have had no bubbling anywhere.

Finally, once the taping is done... time for the second coat, which is the fill coat. I thought I was going to be a hawk and trowel guy. I am not a hawk and trowel guy. I have a 14" beveled/curved trowel that was just too cumbersome for me. I could make it work, but it was way more effort than using a wide blade knife. I also was dropping as much compound on the floor as putting on the seams. After half a day with the trowel, I switched to a 10" knife, and I think I am about 3x as fast with the knife and mud tray. Also getting more consistent good results with the knife. Some of my trowel seams will probably need to get filled in a bit more once dry.

Beyond this it is really just getting the feel for tapering/feathering the edges so the mud runs clean to the drywall, and then trying to get things as flat as possible so you aren't sanding too much. 3rd coat should mostly be a skim coat to smooth out tool lines and other imperfections.


Also want to mention I used vinyl corner bead. I used spray adhesive on the corners and bead, then stapled them in place. I am happy with that decision.


Couple pics
(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F66eAFJj.jpg&hash=c498123404a94d2a354f40b5a0d8f13c)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FHfnLqPu.jpg&hash=b9cc9a1ff7f45800be1f70afa0ed9d48)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F2wCrcRV.jpg&hash=8916c4377ba9e7d7c7704702096b6493)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fr8wg6GJ.jpg&hash=ea7efa1e4a9ccef4fd961025635d739b)



Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Ozarkhomesteaders on March 26, 2017, 06:09:55 AM
Hey your build looks great so far!!  Had to get a chuckle from your drywall finish experiences,  however from your pictures it looks great for a first timer.  I have finished drywall for a number of years now and I thought I would tell you how I do things real quick.  Might help may not. Your are correct about the mud color and buckets and to use what for what.  I only use green and blue mud, I use 4",6",8"10" and 12" knives with pan.  I always thin my green mud down.  Consistency is personal preference I like mine a little on the thin side, just because my wrists have taken a beating over the years and I have got fairly good at keeping the mud off of the floor. I ussually tape and coat with green mud.  I always run all butt joints first, then flat, then all angles.  I run the mud out from under the tape with 6" knife on butts and flats 4" on corners.  When I 1st coat I use a double 8" knife on butts and 10" on flats.  Once again I do all my butts then flats, angles, and bead in that order.  When I 1st coat angles I do one side at a time with 4" knife,  so that when they all meet in the corner none touches the other if that makes sense. When I second coat I use blue mud and I do thin mine a little and add a touch of dawn dish soap to my mud.  The soap helps with air bubbles.  Once again same procedure butts,flats,angles,bead,  I use a double ten on butts, 12" on flats and 4" hitting the opposite side of all angles.  When I run all my flats and butts I lay a full bead of mud on the whole joints feather top, feather bottom, getting the mud line close to the center of the joint then run down the flat of the joint.  I always pole sand (gets it flat) then sponge sand all.  I know this is a crude explanation of one way of doing it,  however it gets me by and hope it can help you a little during your process.  Only time and experience can cut down of the sanding :P... 
Once again your process looks great and I am looking foward to seeing more of your progress. 
BTW sanding is SO much fun,  probably on of my favorite life experiences.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on March 26, 2017, 02:36:03 PM
Ozark that is a great explanation. Mostly similar to where I am finding myself now. I actually picked up a 12" knife today to complete the collection. Nothing worse than doing any job with the wrong tools.

I'm going to dry adding a little Dawn to the mix tomorrow.

Good explanation on the orders too. I am doing my corners one side at a time. When I started coating I did a little bit of everything at once so I could see how it looked when it dried.

I did start messing around with sanding a bit today and it looks like my first coat is pretty close to flat, nothing horrible to sand so far. The temps in the house are a little low right now - falling to mid - low 50s at night, so some stuff from yesterday is not fully dry today. Once this snow melts a little I have my eye on some standing deadwood. We are getting a little low on firewood.

Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: TwoBeagles on March 26, 2017, 04:36:30 PM
Your dry wall looks great. I just finished a drywall project and the one part about sanding which can be the worst is the dust. I used one of the Hyde vac sanders with a shop vac and the dust was very minimal/ next to nothing. Great results for $30 investment.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on April 03, 2017, 03:06:41 AM
Making some more progress. Difficult to stick to just one thing at a time. The electrical is pretty much finished and everything works. Really starting to feel like a house. We just put up construction lights and cheap exterior, but it is really awesome to be in there at night. I got 1 coat of compound on everything near a switch or box, may need to pull the lights down here and there while I'm skim coating everything, not a big deal.

Walking in the mudroom door

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FeFC8CIr.jpg&hash=2e7d5ea8d0f584fabb75b7082413e9f5)

electrical panel. again, bottom portion is generator ready with a plug run outside. this could also later be hooked into a battery bank and solar system. i think within a few years the lithium battery bank pricing may be in line with generator pricing.
(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F2RnOf8M.jpg&hash=e5ae15b5bafcd033b33ba29f1f538145)

hot water heater. in our climate (cold water) it will heat up to 3 gallons per minute, which would be 2 showers at once. the brand is stiebel which it sounds like is basically the standard in europe. we will install a loop to flush it once a year with vinegar. as long as it doesnt get clogged up people say these can last for up to 30 years.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FYKDc6YX.jpg&hash=8ed876c1e3ee5850ca3cb98199eba181)

utility wall
(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FwdJgXPk.jpg&hash=e0d7c67af50b21ed32d74d3a273cc08e)

under stair pantry

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FYamWWZh.jpg&hash=2dcb370a2b75782002994395a60eafe6)

can see that i left two stair treads exposed to build shelving into the stairs.
(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fwv7cohV.jpg&hash=0f60bd96bb5a61bbf28c03bdac9df0b0)

really starting to feel like spring, some other updated pics of downstairs and lights
(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FyiHVchi.jpg&hash=662c5013fd859f7b367432e45f42e010)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FzvMMDLT.jpg&hash=e301a7285e14fcbb757fc6d194f360f0)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FW772P6j.jpg&hash=94962d6988f7c53cdd2f0514d576f3ae)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F9qNIhta.jpg&hash=918c6dc5317b0c65633543a49757e999)

I need to retake these outside shots with my good camera

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FhWIebVF.jpg&hash=d0940c41d41dee5f250a90433ba05d18)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F3QhpTCd.jpg&hash=2f501e3bda1223735810dc9e048566cc)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F02V8WMB.jpg&hash=fa2ae6af993b8aae4deb53b0eb571d2d)
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Rys on April 03, 2017, 03:18:13 PM
Looking good!
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Don_P on April 03, 2017, 04:25:49 PM
Allright! Gettin down to the short rows  :)
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Ozarkhomesteaders on April 03, 2017, 04:34:56 PM
Looks Awesome, Great Progress [cool]
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on May 04, 2017, 12:36:50 PM
Thanks for the feedback, like to hear it's looking good.

I am sanding now, things seem to have come out nice. Drywall does go slow, but we have also had a lot of other stuff going on lately, although it looks like I should have plenty of time to catch up over the next few weeks.

We already primed the two small bedrooms. I will post more pictures soon of high quality, but I haven't wanted to bring my good camera in the house because of all the dust. I should probably sell the thing, I never want to bring it anywhere cause it cost so much.

Most time consuming part of mudding is definitely the inside corners. I ended up using a 4" corner knife so I only needed to put on one coat. Running my hand across after sanding it feels very smooth with an occasional slight imperfection, I don't doubt a second skim coat would smooth it out but I am planning on crown molding. Flats got 2 coats, first with a 10" then a 12" blade.

Very pleased with the floated butt joints on the ceiling, they did require a bit more finesse than a regular flat seam because the depression in the drywall is not so clearly defined. I hedged my bet and offset the seams, but I would recommend to just run them all in a line if you float them as it would be easier to mud that way.

Pantry and the reveal for the wood posts at the stairwell were a little extra work, they came out good though. I will not need to trim anything out.

These pics are a little older, you can see where the drywall gets to the stairwell it came up about 4" short. That was easy to hide with corner bead / inside corner mud.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FX9LXaE9.jpg&hash=a4a0e99440444e9c4e8d0f1ad4f589b5)

You can see I left some drywall off because I slid boards across the stairwell as scaffold until I was finished and mudding the stairwell ceiling. It was convenient.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FJhuKCCd.jpg&hash=387eeb88c14b9ff4082f6f5622a33b0a)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FLBKo67J.jpg&hash=727746aa09edbe72c4c8b55ebf9bc56e)

Inside corners after sanding
(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fp0ZRxRB.jpg&hash=d70b673d67b6b0b63e6f72d65656337d)


I've been using a rafter square, both 16 and 24" sides to determine if I need to sand anything off. I am mostly satisfied within 1/32". I haven't needed to add any mud anywhere except for little voids or 3 way inside corners. For the most part hasn't required too much sanding either, still a messy job.
(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F64qcCFj.jpg&hash=d7151feaeec718a6749a335d21bd1fc4)

Some pics from today, taken from tablet...

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FPGehTJH.jpg&hash=f7f41d624ec3c6dad08399ca14b0023c)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FiBx9K2h.jpg&hash=7c5b617a68999cb5f9c36c60a08d97a3)

Here is the drywall reveal. I used a combination of plain old vinyl corner bead (cut the one edge to about 1/2") and J-trim. Really happy with how it came out. These areas do take longer because of all the prep work. I didn't want to have to trim everything out though.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FAZ5uBrS.jpg&hash=de7698bd95e70ce9be4da2a34337be4d)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FcDOLZzD.jpg&hash=6753439a9efc26e35a2f2880756e9b1d)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F1XuceG2.jpg&hash=b66382488cf6106032c0f78b178ce6bb)

Learned a bunch of tricks on the way, almost too much to mention. But if anyone has any questions about tips or tricks I'm happy to try to answer.



If anyone made it this far, I have really been thinking about siding a lot. Determined to go with wood, probably white pine. I want to stain it semi transparent. Most north east states banned the good stain because of VOCs. There are a few counties in Vermont about 3 hours away that sell the good stuff -TWP 100. A lot of guys say this is the best. Anyone have opinions? I will drive for the stuff.


I also think I found the saw mill I want to use for all the wood finishes. They can do Ash stair treads for $4.27 per foot, damn good price if you ask me. I think they have a ton of it right now because of the emerald ash borer. I might use it almost everywhere in the house.

They also have unselected white oak flooring - I am not sure how knotty that would be, might look pretty cool. I was thinking that could be a pretty cool alternative to tile in the upstairs bathroom. Just put some tar paper under it. White oak heartwood is just about the most rot resistant wood there is.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Adam Roby on May 04, 2017, 03:39:17 PM
Looks really good, congrats on a job well done.  When I drywall, I tend to skimp very light coats and let it dry, add more and let it dry... I try to sand the least amount possible just because I hate sanding.  Takes FOREVER to finish a patch, wouldn't be very useful to do an entire house like that I suppose.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on May 05, 2017, 03:10:21 AM
Thanks Adam, I think in a lot of ways that is how to do it. I would say most of my first coat on the flats was a little bit concave, so on my second coat I was still bringing things out to level. I think that the professionals can get the first coat level and are using the second coat only to remove blemishes. It is hard to say though. After drywalling the whole house I have been inspecting drywall jobs (probably look like a nut job) and even the professionals leave plenty of imperfections.

The other critical thing is to completely feather your edges so you don't have to sand out any drywall to mud ridges. Tool marks in the mud are really easy to sand out though, so in awkward spaces or if you don't mud a seam in one continuous stroke it isn't a big deal to leave some marks.

Something that isn't talked about at all in the trades is the fact that nothing is perfect. Carpenters talk about perfect 90 degree corners, or perfect plumb, level and square. Well when the mud is put on, the only thing that corner isn't is 90 degree. I think it's all about knowing how to hide imperfections. I still haven't found a straight piece of wood.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on May 07, 2017, 04:43:58 PM
Pretty awesome to see paint on the walls. We are primer + 2 coats of paint everywhere. The walls only have 1 coat of paint so far, it already looks great though. So far my seams look like they came out good.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FC8guFAH.jpg&hash=adeb1a53986b64f3be43a55a86e44242)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FflxJ5Xa.jpg&hash=7a034f51f264c22561619677b9f8cd27)
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on May 23, 2017, 07:19:08 AM
Been working on the bathroom and tying things in. We also had an extra hand so started moving furniture in. Getting ready to call the inspector for a temporary occupancy.

Also just to mention my hatred of Milwaukee tools has increased, my drill died while mixing thinset. The thing was hardly ever used, expensive paperweight at this point. Frustrating when I ask to borrow my dad's 40 year old no name drill that still works the same as the day it was bought. Adding it up, saw broke, angle grinder broke, drill broke. Only one left is the impact driver, I will put it out of it's misery soon.

Another thing, as helpful as the Bosch plumb/level laser was, it is already not working right, it pretty much shuts itself off as soon as you turn it on. Another $150 paperweight.

Here are some progress pictures.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FTM4sKKl.jpg&hash=bd402b5e94148b0653f09f829641fc58)

Last time I was able to use the laser - made sloping the bottom of that cubby fast work, but there just is no excuse for a tool to wear out so fast.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F71m33B0.jpg&hash=bd187a6cfeb7e7f665a101b4ed758f5e)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F1Fkrch7.jpg&hash=80c452a3913e00e7ec206870801f6286)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FgS0zmkK.jpg&hash=e704a943350f7dd60a0c19bd37683f4f)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FfhjPMgV.jpg&hash=342cde95b479a27cbe9ba968f32be2ed)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FkSCcUpb.jpg&hash=7fac7ed363bf199f83ef0b03bd52e6c4)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FkreSRyf.jpg&hash=77a147cda7d6901167305d297e7af56d)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F4geBa3X.jpg&hash=6f3bf0ec29dc69aa46c68ed949a5a204)

Pretty much a standard pressure tank install - before getting to the T I put on a check valve. When I was air pressure testing the lines I had teflon by itself, and pipe dope by itself leak. I have been doing 3 wraps of teflon and then pipe dope on top and nothing has leaked since then.
(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FpUHMrpz.jpg%3F1&hash=1603c62927806b64b81045ddb57d3ff5)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FufuWDyz.jpg&hash=2035bb48397f7fe193f4f4f799dcf512)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FUYSlrKh.jpg&hash=6c5d56934ebf2ce4ecff317d82e9b73f)



Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: jsahara24 on May 24, 2017, 09:12:13 AM
Great progress, wish my spackling came out half as good! 

Question for you regarding electric, were you required to pigtail wires for your outlets or could you feed the next outlet in the circuit from the outlet itself? 
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on May 25, 2017, 06:02:20 AM
Thanks.

As long as there were only 2 wires in the box we didn't pigtail for plugs. The main thing with plugs was that they had to be tamper resistant, and the outside also needed to be water resistant. Most of the stuff at Lowes does not meet the code. It was actually really hard to find tamper resistant + water resistant. I am pretty sure that is the kind of stuff that would have kept us from passing final electrical. Also the exterior plugs had to have the massive caps so that you can use them during a hurricane...  d*

For final inspection he mainly was tripping all the circuits and adding up the number of plugs etc. Never pulled out a tape measure or anything.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Rys on May 25, 2017, 06:13:59 AM
Really coming together.
Love your TV stand.    ;)
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on May 25, 2017, 06:38:56 AM
Really coming together.
Love your TV stand.    ;)
:)

Priorities right? We had internet (surprisingly good DSL) before we had a toilet.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on May 30, 2017, 07:18:53 AM
Burning the midnight oil to get this done...

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FweeDL3F.jpg&hash=d570feebb9e7cbe441091b9f3ce8014b)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FXBtpe5E.jpg&hash=9400fc0e4a702676629c7af88d958afa)

Still need to sponge off some of the haze, camera is exaggerating it though. Also can see when I framed in the chimney I made a space for cubbies in the wall on the left there.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FejrPdCi.jpg&hash=ed558a25bbc7d11f125f39597dba0cb0)

Also put it up a temporary railing.
(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FilyqESv.jpg&hash=b98b4f63a17e0acad730fb94b85dc1b2)
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: dablack on May 30, 2017, 10:05:50 AM
Tile work looks great.  I can tell you did your homework on the materials and coatings.  Nice job. 
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Rys on May 30, 2017, 10:31:58 AM
Great looking tile job.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on May 31, 2017, 08:59:42 AM
Thanks for the compliments.

The book that anyone tiling should have is the TCNA handbook. Every possible scenario is diagrammed out, and mortar, grout, substrate, waterproof or resistant membrane ETC is defined by ANSI standard. That way when you actually go to the store you can just look for the ANSI code instead of trying to decipher marketing (or god forbid, listening to the 'help') and hoping for the best.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on June 28, 2017, 02:31:46 PM
We got our temporary occupancy a few weeks ago, so we finally get to live up here. Feels great. And it was just in time because we had a little girl join us the week after. Keeping us busy but what a joy, and what a great place to raise her.

Otherwise, I did a trial run on building a vanity cabinet - just the box and face frame for now - for the upstairs bathroom. I bought a planer, what a game changer. Having the right tools does make all the difference. We refurbed a corian counter top with a random orbital sander, looks brand new, it does have about 1/4 of sag across it, but after shimming I can't really tell a difference. We used sugar maple for the face frame, the planer did a great job on such a hard wood.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FQ1sCAM6.jpg&hash=cd03188f31db7ca01321a1370c5e0891)

Now I'm getting geared up for siding. I am doing about 2.75" of exterior insulation, I found used polyiso for $10 a sheet delivered. Can't argue with that, probably saved close to $3000. I will be using the REMOTE and "Mass save deep energy retrofit" guides for a lot of the details. The R value of the exterior insulation is somewhere around 15-17, and while the walls do have R-23 in them, with all the framing the actual R-value of the wall is probably closer to 14-15. This will effectively double everything. Nominally the walls are going to be R-40, attic R-60 and under the slab is R-20, with an additional R-10 going down vertically to the footing. This should make the house very easy to heat, around 1-2 cords in a very cold windy upstate winter. Also I will likely be installing a ductless minisplit as a backup heat source.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fr47EpDK.jpg&hash=3101de9790a48db78089066ef1782893)
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Adam Roby on June 28, 2017, 03:20:24 PM
We got our temporary occupancy a few weeks ago, so we finally get to live up here. Feels great. And it was just in time because we had a little girl join us the week after. Keeping us busy but what a joy, and what a great place to raise her.

Congrats on both accomplishments!   
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on June 29, 2017, 08:25:54 AM
That vanity looks great from here.  What do you reckon you saved over buying new?
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on June 29, 2017, 01:02:06 PM
Thanks Adam.


The vanity - it was probably $15 of hard maple for the face frame, another $75 for the plywood. Maple for the doors and drawer fronts should be under $100. A hard maple vanity like that would probably cost over $1000, maybe not including the top. I can also use pine or soft maple, or Ash (really cheap here right now) for the drawer boxes.

The real expense is in the tools, I am going to build all the cabinets, and do all the woodwork, in the house though. It would kill me to have someone else screw some boxes together after building everything else, then have to look at their work when I'm having a beer.

Anyhow,

Dewalt 734 planer $400
Bosch 2 1/4 hp plunge/fixed base router $200
Kreg pocket hole jig (master system) $140
When I start the kitchen, I may really need a jointer $300
Chop saw was my grandfathers, but it's not cutting plumb right now, so I might need one of those. $200?
Random Orbital 5" sander $70, another $40+ in pads easy

I haven't started accumulating router bits yet, but they aren't cheap. I could buy a pre-built router table for around $180, have thought to just put two pieces of melamine coated particle board together, then clamp a straight edge down as the router table though. Hard to say how much that would really save.

In all likelihood I'll buy a dovetail jig, because what's an extra $250 to really take it look up a notch.

I am just using the kobalt contractors table saw, it seems fine for what I need it to do. Finish blades are at least $40-50 a piece.

Anyway, if I build a maple vanity for under $200 in materials, it still takes over $1000 in tools to get there. I will definitely save money by the time I'm done doing cabinets, stairs, trim, etc. And not that we're the type to spend $2000 on a bathroom vanity, but the tools arguably already paid for themselves if we are. I don't think it is worth doing this stuff without the right tools. It would be miserable work instead of enjoyable.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on July 13, 2017, 11:06:51 AM
Lots of rain lately, we have started the siding process, first thing is to create jamb, sill and head extensions for all the windows that will be in plane with the vertical furring strips for the rain screen. Roughly 3.5".

I made the jambs and sill out of cedar, after a lot of picking, the sills are almost totally clear. Sills were given a 15 degree slope, the head 5.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FYzmYOf8.jpg&hash=890c6bf2ce703594db6207bce1756a87)

Installed to the siding with angles, the head is pine, but received 6" flashing tape. Really, not enough water should ever migrate to that point for it to be necessary, but it was pretty cheap insurance. The insulation will also be held back away from the window flange and angle brackets, so that at some point when the windows are replaced it won't involve any demolition. The trim will also be screwed instead of nailed in this area.

Just as an aside, I don't have anything good to say about Andersen windows or their ignorant representatives. Like many companies, they spend all their money on marketing instead of building a quality product and knowledgeable staff.


(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FJb6sFpe.jpg&hash=2ab704b217bb3956ef3dd3358876ba49)

We also ordered siding, select grade pine clapboards. We grabbed a sample (common grade with knots - ours will be mostly knot free) to test out stain. From what I've read TWP stain is the best, from top to bottom: no stain, pecan, cedar, california redwood, honeytone. We like the pecan the most.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FOqGsYZX.jpg&hash=b19a87a80ea2981e1f9874c2b4dfc07d)

Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: icanreachit on July 13, 2017, 11:49:50 AM
Looks great! What will you stuff in that gap between the window boxes and the insulation boards? Just make a removable piece? I like the idea of making them removable for replacement down the line. I am looking at metal siding for a building but it doesn't give you that option.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on July 13, 2017, 11:55:54 AM
Thanks, and yep I'm just going to rip strips of scrap foam to slip in there.

Even with metal siding couldn't you still install the trim around the windows so that it could be removed independently of the siding?
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on July 19, 2017, 03:41:12 PM
Started putting up the insulation, and the siding got here, which looks awesome.

The bottom of the wall got the treatment recommended in the buildingscience.com deep mass energy retrofit... actually even a little extra, in a prior picture you can see we put on two coats of redgard to connect the foundation to the zip wall. The Remote guide specifies sinking the exterior wall insulation down into the ground, and then protecting it with flashing.. I don't really get that, I think foundation insulation either needs to go in the middle of the concrete or on the inside.

Instead of renting a metal brake we extruded the roll flashing through a template cut out of a piece of scrap wood.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F2idG742.jpg&hash=629deafb0ac5ae420fffc61c88765827)

The flashing then got 16" of screen mesh on top of that, and both of them got flashing taped to the wall. Hard to visualize, but once the insulation is on, we will hold the furring strips 1-2" below the insulation, pull the flashing downward to create a downward slope and then screw it in place through the furring. The insect screen will get wrapped around the furring strips to keep any critters out of the rain screen.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FVMKmaEM.jpg&hash=4b141abb546a84ce4895bd623dc84034)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F4Z4QMz6.jpg&hash=536b92d34b79d5847c2a145fa7d10dfd)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FQofZGwf.jpg&hash=6e2b671f02c75dfdbf20112a7749d1db)

The used insulation had a bunch of washers still attached, which are really nice to use for temporarily holding the foam to the wall until the structural screws go through furring into studs.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FauD4nFG.jpg&hash=9da5ffdcf1fb1029cd69b1ed90dc4291)

Siding
(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FTwfWerC.jpg&hash=558ae65884d561632d2110744945bb36)

Virtually no knots.. the look we want the house to have.
(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FOB0vuf5.jpg&hash=57a9ee8c07c216ae0cd8fb408efdc771)
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Don_P on July 19, 2017, 05:02:50 PM
I like to make a stain tray out of boards for the edges, plywood for the bottom and subfloor glue with lots of nails, then caulk the inside joints. It saves a lot of stain, for me at least. I feel the same about that window manufacturer. My last run in went essentially, "we don't make mistakes so it must have been you".
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on July 20, 2017, 09:00:07 AM
Don I do like the idea of a tray, you would then pour the stain directly into the wooden trough and not bother lining it with poly or plastic? The wood shouldn't absorb much, I could see it working like that. Also was thinking if the tray had a sloped section above the pool of stain with wooden lathe or something you could sit the board on that to drip off a bit, and then hit the finished side with a brush to finish it off.

I have debated posting more about the windows, I have lots of pictures, I'd end up going off the deep end though. I think the main problem is the miter joints look like a 5 year old made them. None of the reps I have spoken to really understand how the windows are built, so I would have to take the thing apart to really reverse engineer (although these windows don't deserve to have the word engineer associated with them) what exactly is going on. At one point they tried to blame the zip tape, which is hilarious because it is the only modern product I've used that I think is done right, and if Huber was public I'd own their stock.

At the end of the day they count on people immediately trimming everything out so you don't see if there are any issues, 10-20 years later when you pull them out it isn't their problem.

I do mean it, once I have a wood shop I will build my own next time. The only prebuilt product I am impressed with is the wood cookstove. Everything else is just marketing.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: icanreachit on July 20, 2017, 02:42:04 PM
Nathan, looks awesome! Your lower flashing helped me a lot with some details that I was working on.

I'm split between doing small relieves around the windows and having them service-able. I'll probably air on serviceable. I won't be using osb though so it may be tricky to have something for the metal to be screwed into close to the window if I put trim over the studs.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: lostgirlfound on July 27, 2017, 07:56:27 AM
Just wondering if you had a cost breakdown at for this build? It may have already been said and if so can you direct me. This is almost exactly what we want to build.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on July 29, 2017, 10:06:00 AM
Hi lostgirl.

This is a summary of our current expenses. My wife actually has done a really good job of keeping track of everything down to the nail. The only thing we didn't do ourselves was site work, the footing for the foundation, and the slab. Everything else is purely a material expense. If you want more detail on certain areas it can be made more granular.

This also does not include tool expenses which I am sure there are several thousand dollars worth.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FrbnLhqh.png&hash=edffb578bd0fc89bb51d748d61c1ee54)
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: icanreachit on August 01, 2017, 11:30:23 AM
Hey Nathan,

Any thought on where to mount the windows without OSB? I will be using letin bracing and just 1/2" foam for a thermal break. I could put the windows under foam but am worried about moisture getting behind the foam.

Thanks! Also, what flooring are you going with for 11k? I'm doing a poly on concrete and 1x8 T&G upstairs for cost savings. No subfloor
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on August 01, 2017, 02:38:07 PM
That would make your foam the water resistant barrier (WRB) then? You will tape all the seams, the window needs to be connected to your WRB, so it would make sense to put a flanged window on the outside of the foam. Just from a completely practical standpoint, trying to install 1/2" foam without damaging it would be miserably impossible job (especially without rigid backing sheathing), also if you ever get any amount of wind washing it could tear it apart. Aside from adding shear strength over a triangle brace, plywood or OSB is a really good substrate for air and water control layers in the building assembly. I'm not sure if I said, but I got the 2.75" polyiso insulation for $10 a sheet, used stuff is really economical. It would have probably been $50 a sheet from the lumber yard. Just another thought to be sure to install your 1x8 pine triangular to the joists as that adds a ton of strength.

As for the budget, we definitely are not spending 11k on flooring, some of these numbers are catch-alls where we round up.. a lot. That figure would also include all the interior trim work - windows, potentially crown molding, we are thinking about doing wainscoting downstairs. The upstairs will get hardwood, the downstairs slab is staying as is at least for several years, we really like it so far.

We will probably make a bulk order of Ash - a few thousand feet - to get wholesale pricing. It has crossed my mind to plane and T&G the wood flooring for upstairs myself, we'll see though.

Anyway, with budgeting it is a good idea to round up to the nearest 1000 or 5000 sometimes, that way when you forgot about $500 of screws for your rain screen furring you aren't SOL.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on August 04, 2017, 03:58:40 AM
Pretty much done with the insulation and doing the furring strips now, we also picked up the stuff to make a trough to stain the siding.

We are using 5" structural screws to attach the furring into the studs about 1.25-1.5". That's inline with the REMOTE guide, also picked up that shooting the screws in 1" vertical for every 6" horizontal greatly increases mechanical advantage. The spec sheet for the screws said to go in 2" which is insane, I weighed out the materials and each screw is holding at most 9lbs, and any wind event that could rip out one of these screws would snap the siding first. Anyway, I didn't want to go in 2" because that is deep enough to hit electrical.

We are using 1x4 pine for furring, 1x8 at the corners because both the trim and clapboards need to be nailed on. Also decided to use stainless steel siding nails, making up some of that cost by more hand nailing. I am spoiling myself with a titanium head hammer this time, will see if that feels better than a 24oz framing maul.  :D

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FnQDNEA1.jpg&hash=ce353540731bc5e94d386b6f93f050e8)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fyj701Dh.jpg&hash=37ccdd29e734cf317c88b6e0bfa50d3a)
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: azgreg on August 04, 2017, 09:20:58 AM
Looking good Nathan. What kind of exterior insulation are you using?
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on August 04, 2017, 09:44:28 AM
Thanks Greg. It's recycled polyiso off a school roof. The stuff that looks like tar paper is actually a fiberglass facing that is used for gluing flat roofing to it. The insulation itself is also impregnated with fiberglass to improve the fire rating, made it really nasty to work with. Not as bad as batt insulation though.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: speedfunk on August 14, 2017, 09:39:54 AM
your right about that poly iso being nasty to work with!  Nice idea on the corners..i have an ackward void in corner..i like your method better.  Padding the wall out this much does present its challenges lol.

Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on August 16, 2017, 02:02:04 PM
Thanks speedfunk... yes that foam sure does complicate things, I think it was worth it for sure though. Bring on the cold.

Aside from a few odds and ends the furring is done, and we are in full blown staining production mode. We built a trough like Don suggested, works great, going through lots of stain coating both sides but it should be worth it in the long run. The rough side we use a squeegee to remove the stain, smooth side we use brushes because it being fresh planed wood it doesnt absorb too much, and the squeegee takes way too much off. After being in the drying rack a few hours we wipe off the excess with paper towels. Coming out good. I think we will probably use around 20 gallons of stain. Yikes!

The drying rack is just 2x4s with a bunch of spare 16D nails tapped in about 1/2 an inch. Then after drying for a day we are stacking them with stickers.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FjITHOkX.jpg&hash=27634b8629037aecd60caf9dcc1f50ca)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FNV2PSTm.jpg&hash=ca714442d1cf151c919477cac72b7dd8)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FZ56c7Kc.jpg&hash=93c64edf0e48add61e3e62ddda465e37)

Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: azgreg on August 16, 2017, 03:50:33 PM
Can't wait to see how it looks on the house.  ;D
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on September 04, 2017, 03:49:17 PM
You and me both, Greg.

We've gotten most of the trim up now, also all the siding except some odds and ends is finished staining. Dipping every single piece in the trough is no small job. Once the majority of the stain is removed, at the end of the day every single piece needs to get toweled off to get rid of any excess/runs.

I precut all the trim pieces to fit the jamb extensions, and it worked out great. Very happy with how it looks so far. We also did a water table at the base of the walls.

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FTKmbclw.jpg&hash=ebdc8c9e4cacb1546f683fd91211a4ba)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FpdThgcx.jpg&hash=c94b9cdeaaa40c7d85d4178d75ef280a)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fyv7mQTy.jpg&hash=19eaa35bbab2a0af0265b46778494f51)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fzm4AuvA.jpg&hash=ace9d75f81a082bd9d675bd70593c84f)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F3c16cnO.jpg&hash=50fcf3ebd20e2b0ba90113ac37807084)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fr92StVm.jpg&hash=383a938f8dfddff0f747917959c4c6ba)

(https://countryplans.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FEb8dzl8.jpg&hash=e04595b9bcf14a3850d534aa2d22d8c0)
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: dablack on September 05, 2017, 06:57:22 AM
The trim looks great.  Again, you have a good eye for detail. 

Did you have to do an aerial with your power or could you have gone under ground?  Down here in TX, I don't really have a frost depth so underground is the way to go. 
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on September 13, 2017, 12:44:16 PM
Thanks Austin. We just ran the line from the road because it was the cheapest thing to do. It was like $430 straight off the pole. I never even tried to estimate how much it would have cost to trench it. I don't think I would have had time to dig the trench myself either, we cut it pretty close getting the house weather tight last year as it was.

We are putting up siding now, it's going well. It's nice to have everything pre-stained, although every cut edge is getting hit with stain right before it goes on the wall so we have 100% coverage. Also I am pretty much not using caulk anywhere except a few absolutely necessary places. The rain screen allows the wall to dry when it gets wet, and the caulk could actually prevent drying. At least that is the side of the issue I've taken, and as with all things involving trades or building there are as many opinions as people. The rain screen for me boils down to building a really expensive barn around your house, it can dry out almost as fast as it gets wet. If you look at barns, except in the splash back area, I see boards wearing through from the friction of rain before they rot from water damage.

I used pocket screws to run furring support strips for trim pieces. I really like the kreg jig.
(https://i.imgur.com/XwdIRBB.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/4Yaw47B.jpg)

I need to trim around the mudroom roof to finish the north wall, once I finish working my way around the house to above the first floor windows that is next up. I also need to build the attic vents soon.

(https://i.imgur.com/9Tj5FR6.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/WkAqNrV.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/PDtjyos.jpg)

Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: azgreg on September 13, 2017, 03:22:49 PM
That's looking fantastic!  :)
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: dablack on September 14, 2017, 06:19:23 AM
yep, that is looking really sharp!
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Rys on September 17, 2017, 04:14:10 PM
Looks wonderful!
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on September 29, 2017, 02:14:47 PM
Chipping away at the siding still. North wall and mudroom are done... that was a biggie, this time of the year the dew on the roof makes it hard to be up there. South wall just needs around the balcony a bit, may wait on that to use up scraps as they show up.

I am building attic vents out of red cedar slats, rather than router out for the slats, i just chopped blocks. Came out very nicely, I am building them square and sliding them under the roof trim to angle the tops. I really enjoy this kind of cheating, it looks complicated but kept simple.

(https://i.imgur.com/yc83Z3r.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/WaUiovk.jpg)

The thick foam really does add a lot of work to everything... the trim work especially is very complicated. You are basically building boxes for everything - 3d instead of 2d. The mudroom roof and corner above, that took a day to trim - add to that getting the top of the trim to line up with the bottom of the clapboard layout. With the position of the two windows there I had no space to cheat it across a couple courses.

(https://i.imgur.com/TEZyyFG.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/O9e2T6Y.jpg)

I held the mudroom roof trim up from the endwall flashing about 4", that zone is always rotten on houses. That trim has a return piece of wood so you can't see the foam when standing underneath.

(https://i.imgur.com/BZxDNAl.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/E6xX8vA.jpg)


This is my 120-130 year old clapboard clamp I found on ebay for $8. I have used it to put up 16 footers all the way at the top of the walls, it really makes short work of it. It holds the board in a cradle, which allows you to jam or snap the boards into position.

(https://i.imgur.com/VO4I9az.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/WOVvDdw.jpg)


Also just to mention, the additional foam on the walls is already noticeable. We have had our share of cold snaps - a couple consecutive days lows in the 30s, highs in the 50s. We have yet to need a fire, the house is maintaining 67-70 degrees with cracked windows up and downstairs.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Mike 870 on September 30, 2017, 04:22:00 PM
What brand and color stain are you using?  It looks amazing.  All that extra effort with the foam board will be worth it when you're saving loads of money on heating and cooling.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on October 01, 2017, 04:30:45 AM
Thanks Mike, it is TWP stain. The color is Pecan. There are online retailers that will ship 5 gallon pails very quickly. A lot of painters seem to swear by the stuff, it will just fade and need reapplied every 5-7 years - first time probably a little sooner since it is fresh planed wood.

In Ohio I think you can still get the original mixture, the "100 series," which is not the low VOC stuff we are stuck with from Virginia to Maine. Although one thing that I think is kind of nice about the solvents we had is that it dries slower, so you don't really have to worry about lap marks.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: dablack on October 03, 2017, 04:22:35 AM
Again, the house looks great and thanks for the picture on the siding gauge. 

On the house we are in right now, I went with ordinary spray foam in the walls and then a non-vented roof with spray foam between the rafters and then rigid foam on top of the roof deck and finally a silver metal roof.  We are more concerned with staying cool than warm.  Of course, I had zero roof penetrations, so adding the rigid foam on top was pretty easy.  Hanging insulation on an exterior wall still gives me pause as an engineer.  Those fasteners holding it on always have gravity working on them and the center of gravity of the insulation is an inch or more away from the house.  Then the rain screen and THEN finally the siding.  I think you have done an amazing job and you will be crazy toasty in there, but I still go back and forth!  I think the next house will be double wall.  Double wall will simplify the siding, windows, and doors.  No boxes to build.  Then with the large wall cavity between the walls, plumbing and wiring will be SO easy.  No drilling studs at all.  Then the only boxes you have to build are on the inside and all your windows will have a little 12" seat.  I'm just "typing" out loud at this point. 
I think you have done a text book job with the "outsulation" and this thread should be used on how to do it right.  After seeing how perfectly you have done it, I'm still not sure if I would go that way or double wall.  I guess I have a couple of years before I have to decide!  Thanks for all the detailed pictures.

Austin
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on November 16, 2017, 05:24:05 AM
Austin, thank you for the kind comments. You have probably seen what they are doing in Alaska - the REMOTE guide shows they are doing 6" of 'outsulation' in two layers with staggered seams. They will then put cement board over the rain screen, not sure how heavy that is, but my clapboards weigh almost nothing. One thing I picked up in that guide was to 'pre sag' the screws, shoot them in at a slightly upward angle. Made sense to me.

Anyhow, the siding has been done for about a month now. I am going to wait until next spring to have the electrical service disconnected to finish the gable on the one side.

(https://i.imgur.com/kigHuCH.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/cXLqFiU.jpg)



I finished the balcony railing and decking as well. I put down white oak for deck boards - good enough for boats, good enough for me. I made the railing out of eastern white cedar, the top and bottom rails I ripped a 30 degree hat so water will not sit on them. The deck itself is also pitched all the way out. We had leftover rebar from the foundation, so I cut to length and drilled them into the rails. I ran pressure treated furring strips from the end of the deck all the way to the door threshold, I screwed them into the cantilevered portion, and on the inset portion where it is sitting on metal I caulked tar paper on the underside so they were not in direct contact. Otherwise the inset portion the deck just floats - feels sturdy because white oak weighs about as much as concrete. Lots of other details too, extending the subdecking out beyond the siding, bending the metal for proper water drainage... I even found a bent piece of deckboard for the end piece so it has a nice rounded edge - of course no one will ever notice that except for me. Didn't take a ton of pictures because I just wanted to get the thing done.

(https://i.imgur.com/sLBwHzS.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/5IBPXtb.jpg)

Even without gutters and all the roof runoff you can sit out there in the rain.
(https://i.imgur.com/v8GkWFm.jpg)


Now I am getting ready to do the kitchen. We are trying to decide between doing the house in Ash or Cherry. Doing a small lot order makes the wood so inexpensive, it really is just coming down to how we want the house to look. We get so much sunlight I am leaning to Cherry to darken things up a bit. Also am planning to do a cast in place concrete counter in the kitchen which will change how the cabinets need to be built a little bit.

The other thing I'm researching is installing a ductless minisplit. I will likely buy the hvac tools and install it myself. Doesn't seem that complicated, and the HVAC companies we've talked to want like $2,000 to basically shoot some nitrogren into some lines and then create a deep vacuum.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Rys on November 16, 2017, 06:27:14 AM
Love the balcony!    [cool]
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Mike 870 on November 16, 2017, 01:08:19 PM
Looks great.  Iíve done a couple central ACs and a mini split.  It really was not difficult.  Now granted we didnít do a nitrogen pressure test, but Iíve had a bunch of systems professionally installed over the years, and the ďexpertsĒ never once did it either.  In fact the last guy didnít even use a micron meter, just let the vacumme run and called it good.  That was the one that put me over the edge.  I would watch them do it, see how quick and easy it looked so I bought an HVAC textbook and now I do my own.  If youíve figured out how to build the rest of your house, pretty sure you can install a mini split.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: dablack on November 20, 2017, 10:49:05 AM
Lots of great minisplit installs and talk of the tools needed over on http://ecorenovator.org/forum/

Just go over the geothermal / heatpump section.  Lots of guys have installed their own units. 
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on November 30, 2017, 12:46:18 PM
Thanks for feedback on the minisplit. It's good to hear that Mike's done it, and the forum looks like a good resource too.

The house has been very efficient. So far this week we are averaging out to around 65-67F having one fire a day - burning 4-5 pieces of partially rotten pine I found in the woods. Highs in the 30s or low 40s and lows in the 20s. We've been getting sun this week, and that on its own will raise the temperature 3 or 4 degrees during the day.

Time is also short lately. I probably won't get to the minisplit until next year, this winter I would have liked to have it to prevent the house from freezing if we're away for a few days here or there.

I have cut most of the plywood for the kitchen counter where the sink will go. I am going to pour a 2" concrete slab for the counter, probably $60 of concrete vs $60 per square foot for the stuff from the store. Can't argue with that. I am planning to steel trowel it all day to burnish the heck out of it.

Once all the boxes are built and installed I'm going to bulk order the hardwood to trim out the whole house (trim, kitchen, stairs, doors). Probably something like 500 board feet of 4/4 and 200 board feet of 5/4. We are going to go with Cherry - been back and for on this. We can get the cherry planed top and bottom, and one side jointed for $2.32 a board foot... that seems just crazy cheap to me... We will probably spend more in the kitchen on plywood and hardware than the Cherry. Around $1700 all in. Ash would be around $1250.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on January 11, 2018, 04:59:48 AM
Thought I'd post an update, things go slower with a 7 month old.

I built about half of our lower cabinet boxes (all 3/4" plywood and most partitions doubled up) and poured in place a concrete countertop on them. I poured it 2" thick so I had space for 3/8" rebar in front and behind the cast iron (heavy) sink. By the way, my first time with a porcelain sink and find it a lot easier to keep clean than stainless steel... stuff 'sticks' to it less.

My personal opinion, I think there is a lot of snake oil out there for doing a concrete countertop. I just used premix concrete, like 5 bags? So around $20, leftover remesh, and plywood. I don't know, it seems like every time you look how to do something there is someone that has just taken it about 5000 steps and dollars too far.

Anyhow, I love my lasers... what time saver. I bought a cheap one from amazon after the Bosch failed, seems to work great.
(https://i.imgur.com/MnKSddC.jpg)

Hiding the plywood base with a 2x4 lip dropped 3/4". I used 3/4" plywood for the base, I think 1/2" would have been stiff enough.

(https://i.imgur.com/OGDuVCn.jpg)

Reinforced and ready to go. The sink cutout, I used cardboard to make my template then cut boards and pocket screwed together. Rounded the edges with a jigsaw. Our sink sits on top so it didn't have to be perfect.

(https://i.imgur.com/ZC18HJr.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/bKttP5Y.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/yvMwTLd.jpg)

I like the end result. I did make a booboo when pouring though. I troweled the surface too early, which caused the very thin top layer to be too weak. I had to buy a harbor freight polisher and polishing pads at another $100 total. Sanded it out, made a portland slurry and applied with drywall knife, then resanded to 6000 grit. Came out good, but troweling too early added several additional hours of labor.

(https://i.imgur.com/Bk9o2un.jpg)


We also completed the first renovation...  ;D

The fridge just takes up too much space no matter where you put it, so we sunk it into the pantry. Our kitchen counter space will over double now, and the house just feels so much bigger and open. The pantry still has a lot of storage, it is actually probably the right width for one of those pantry types that have big drawers you pull out. Because we furred the ceiling drywall out we were able to snake 1/2" pex and electrical over for the fridge... we still got ice cubes.

This is probably the one advantage to living in an unfinished house, you can make decisions on experience instead of trying to plan everything all at once.

(https://i.imgur.com/qgR759x.jpg)


(https://i.imgur.com/nt3Mi7L.jpg)

I have been working on the downstairs bathroom now.


Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: dablack on January 11, 2018, 05:10:09 AM
Looks good!  I like the simple and over built approach to the countertops.  Looks really nice and I think the polish was a good idea even if you didn't want to do it.  Did you put on any kind of sealer or are you going to wax them or anything? 

Also, your construction stairs are much nicer than mine.  I have misc scraps as the treads and it really bothers people.  Plus, no rail on mine so people feel really uneasy. 
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on January 11, 2018, 05:37:37 AM
Thanks Austin. I used Miracle Sealant Porous Plus. It is a penetrating sealer that is safe for food. Seems ok so far. One thing is for sure the counter is going to get abused. If it stains, it stains. I also wanted to be able to put red hot pots and pans right on it. I wondered with wax is what will the hot pan do to it.

With it being concrete, and having the pads now, I can always resand it once every couple years if it gets too stained up or ugly.

I put the rail on the stairs because I kept getting the same reaction from visitors. Hopefully not too many more months before things start getting clad in wood. I think March or April will be warm enough to start making stair treads and doors etc. I want to do wainscot all the way around the downstairs too.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: SouthernTier on January 11, 2018, 08:25:33 AM
Do you have a link for that laser level?  Was it this one:  https://www.amazon.com/Tacklife-SC-L01-Self-Leveling-Horizontal-Cross-Line ?

Thanks.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on January 11, 2018, 08:56:51 AM
That's the brand. I got SC-L02 though, it's rated a bit more accurate.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01N21XU73/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o07_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

It is so easily worth the purchase. I use them all the time. Bosch did send me a replacement for the one that broke. But with modern (maybe it's always been this way?) equipment, you pretty much always need 2 of everything. So I will keep the Bosch for if/when this one breaks.

You could even use these as a transit, you just have to wait until dusk or do it at night. I used it to establish the bottom trim around our house.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on April 18, 2018, 04:06:35 PM
Mostly have just worked on the downstairs bathroom over the neverending winter (getting another 2 inches of snow or so tomorrow april 19th... more like february than spring still).

If I never see another tile again it will be too soon.

(https://i.imgur.com/e87qelu.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/NLJSYbU.jpg)

We used Kerdi because it has a long proven track record. Also the shower pan - namely the integrated flange, allows for a face sealed mud bed instead of it being like a water storage resevoir. That was the main reason. Laticrete makes a liquid applied version of this which I think would just go way faster.
(https://i.imgur.com/ttjhBrE.jpg)

I used some extra redgard  in the niche, the Kerdi really requires a lot of origami if you want to do this, or you have to keep buying inside and outside corners which adds up.
(https://i.imgur.com/s2tXhwG.jpg)

I know what you're thinking "wow that looks like fun"
(https://i.imgur.com/DbkUvM4.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/eTfnPsd.jpg)

Dry pack mortar bed, this was tough because I didn't have much access. I actually didn't take any pictures of between kerdi and tiling it. The curb was fast setting concrete, that stuff is cool.
(https://i.imgur.com/q6q3uBh.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/Dr9lgfX.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/BMliL90.jpg)

Two showerheads, also tiled the ceiling.
(https://i.imgur.com/TM02f02.jpg)

We could have centered the drain but decided instead to just make the shower as wide as we had space for.
(https://i.imgur.com/qcBYQ99.jpg)

The beer shelf, not sure what shampoo is doing there.
(https://i.imgur.com/rYyZFCk.jpg)

It was hard to get decent shots because there wasn't a lot of space. All the grout lines line up floor to ceiling, boy that was a lot of work. What was I thinking.

We have had 5 1/4 white ash flooring acclimating upstairs for a week or two now. I will be installing that next. I am strongly leaning toward an oil finish like 'rubio monocoat' instead of polyurethane.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: azgreg on April 18, 2018, 04:48:36 PM
Looks great! Well done man!  :)

I love shower shadow boxes.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Redoverfarm on April 19, 2018, 02:14:33 AM
Nice job Nathan.  Glad you went with Kerdi as the shower is no place to skimp.  Too many think that concrete board will suffice.  NOT.   
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on April 19, 2018, 05:08:53 AM
Thanks guys. And agreed on both counts. I had considered the old school way of tar paper on the walls and the liner, but I was concerned with how to effectively waterproof the cubby. No good way to connect the tar paper to the liquid applied. Anyhow, really glad it's over with. I don't think there is anything left to do on the house that I will dislike so much. Funny I enjoy masonry, but i just find the tiling extremely tedious and never ending.

Also I want to throw out a question or two on doing the wood flooring -

I am starting the layout from the stair nosing, which means I have to reverse direction of the flooring in all bedrooms. I got the flooring straight from the mill, so they don't make splines. I was just going to rip them on the tablesaw from a piece of the flooring. Seems straightforward but not sure if there's anything I could run into there?

Only other thing is just if anyone has used oil as opposed to poly to finish a floor. The modern stuff is used even in commercial settings in Europe. It is supposed to harden the surface of the wood, and if you do get a nick or some kind of damage you can just spot repair instead of sanding down the whole floor and applying poly again.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Redoverfarm on April 19, 2018, 05:45:38 AM
Spline tipped is the way I do it.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on April 20, 2018, 08:17:49 AM
It looks gorgeous Nathan!  It's been over 5.5 years since I finished my last tile job in the upstairs bath.  I guess that's enough time to forget all the unpleasant parts of tile work, because after seeing your photos I want to get to work on the downstairs bath.   d*
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on May 18, 2018, 03:55:44 AM
Thanks Chugiak, the bathroom has been awesome. It was also nice to get such a big project off our plate.

The other most disruptive project left is also off our plate now... the upstairs hardwood floors are done. We got 5 1/4 wide Ash from a local mill. It came out beautifully.

Started out by putting down tar paper on the floor, then face nailed where we had to and blind nailed everything else. I bought the "Numax" floor nailer off amazon and it worked flawlessly. For face nailing I got the makita 16 gauge finish nailer because I will be using that thing a lot. You can adjust the air pressure on the gun instead of the compressor which is awesome. Especially when you are using different tools that need different pressures at the same time.

The layout starts at the stairs, so I had to rip strips to slide into the groove in all the bedrooms to reverse direction. I got everything close on the table saw and then planed everything to fit perfect. I feel it would have been near impossible to get the splines just right without the planer.

I found the groove on the butt ends of the floor was slightly looser than along the length, it was much easier to snug boards together using that grove and a hammer than using the rubber mallet. The mallet was not enough, at least for 5.25" wide planks, to close up all the gaps.


(https://i.imgur.com/JJuQhNG.jpg)

Putting the floor down wasn't too bad, the sanding took a long time though. We did end up using "Rubio Monocoat" the pure version. The application itself is faster than poly, but because the wear surface and finish itself is the wood, any sanding imperfections will be picked up.

I drum sanded and edged with 60/80/100. Then I hand sanded the perimeter and corners. Then I used a buffer with a 100 grit screen to polish it off. Pretty much no marks anywhere.

The oil also goes on with a buffer, you buff it on, and then after a couple minutes you remove everything you can with a clean buff pad and then a cloth under the buff pad. The hard wax oil bonds with the surface of the wood and closes off the pores, the wear surface is the wood itself as opposed to a layer on top. It is also 0 VOC so the house isn't cancer city for the next week. The oil is slightly less wear resistant than poly, but if it ever needs a touch up you don't have to strip the whole floor, you can just lightly sand and reapply. I am really optimistic about this product.

Also want to mention I used "Timbermate" wood filler which is one of the most user friendly products I have used period. It took the oil great and blends right in.

(https://i.imgur.com/L9vR2BH.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/N0vIrha.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/TP2Uyuq.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/c048lzL.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/2csNx4p.jpg)
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: GaryT on May 18, 2018, 05:44:53 AM
Awesome looking floor!  Very nicely done.
Gary
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: dablack on May 18, 2018, 06:10:57 AM
Love it.  Floor look great.  You did a really good job. 
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Beavers on May 18, 2018, 06:13:54 AM
That does look awesome [cool]
It's cool that you have a local mill where you can get stuff like that. 
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: Rys on May 18, 2018, 08:09:12 AM
Wow! Looks great. I'll have to keep your finish in mind when we do our floors. Thanks for the info.
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on May 18, 2018, 11:10:02 AM
 [cool]

Is this the Numax nailer?

https://www.amazon.com/NuMax-SFL618-Pneumatic-Flooring-Stapler/dp/B0032JTDPE
Title: Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
Post by: NathanS on May 18, 2018, 11:25:22 AM
Thanks for the compliments everyone.

Yes, that's the floor nailer we bought. It probably would have cost more to rent one, and then you're rushing.