Obamacare Endgame - Will your doctor be fined or jailed for putting your health first? So what is happening w/Obamacare? I thought it had been voted down...
Obamacare Endgame: Doctors Will be Fined or Jailed if they Put Patients First
by Dr. Elaina George
"If Obamacare is completely implemented, doctors will no longer be practicing medicine. They will instead become the drones tasked with deciding who gets the meager healthcare crumbs doled out by the bureaucrats who have the ultimate power over patient life and death. Those who are deemed to have illnesses that require treatments which are not cost effective can expect a one way ticket to a hospice."
"Like so many bills passed by Congress, there was a hidden provision in the Stimulus bill passed in 2009. It spends 1.1 billion dollars to create an important piece of the framework for the healthcare bill called the Coordinating Council on Comparative Effectiveness Research. It is based on the false premise that doctors in consultation with their patients don't have the ability to make the right healthcare choices (see executive summary). The council consists of 15 people appointed by the President."
http://biggovernment.com/egeorge/2010/10/30/obamacare-endgame-doctors-will-be-fined-or-jailed-if-they-put-patients
It hasn't been voted own Sassy, it's being fought in a number of states.
In Va. we passed a law last year that said in essence, we were exempt and just last week won against the Feds in Federal court.
There's no doubt it will be appealed in every state including Va. (Some states like Fla., have lost the first round).
Even then, part of the bill will be upheld and that probably will be another nail in an already secure coffin.
Doctors have been drones for decades. They can only do what the insurance company death panels allow them to do. I would rather be the victim of government incompetence and indifference, than be deliberately sacrificed on the altar of insurance company greed.
Quote from: Pox Eclipse on December 21, 2010, 07:10:18 AM
Doctors have been drones for decades. They can only do what the insurance company death panels allow them to do. I would rather be the victim of government incompetence and indifference, than be deliberately sacrificed on the altar of insurance company greed.
I agree with you. I have seen this happen many times. The patient is elderly and not worth the expense. "They are old . . . Just let them die."
My mother volunteers at a nursing home. She feels if it wasn't for the family and the volunteers, the staff would basically allow them all to die. The excuse is that they don't have the money and are understaffed. I wonder where all the money goes when the patients pay $3-6000 per month for care.
/.
As a licensed insuarance agent I can tell you from my experience that you have a lot more to fear from the insurance monopolies than you do from any gov't bureaucrat.
The fear mongering about this law seems to have no limits. The bulk of it (if not all) based on completely false information (i.e. death panels).
Have any of you read the whole bill? From what I've read, there's lots of hidden stuff in the 2000+ page bill - that's what scares me.
I work in a socialized system - the Veterans Administration - I've worked in it for 20+ years... there is good & there is bad about it.
There's never enough money. The bureaucrats keep making more & more levels of administration w/self-important people walking around in lab coats, carrying clipboards, making big money, while those who are actually providing the hands on care of the patients are working w/skeleton crews, barely able to perform the basic care that is necessary.
I've worked up to 22hrs straight in ER due to staffing shortages. It's not unusual to work 16hr shifts & often w/out a lunch break! We are told that it is our fault that we didn't take any breaks. What do we do? Do we leave the patients uncared for so we can take our breaks? The nurses care too much to do that - both about the patients & also won't leave their co-workers hanging.
We are not supposed to eat at the nurse's station - heck, what are we supposed to do? If the boss isn't around, we eat at the nurse's station - otherwise we don't eat! There was a time where we couldn't even keep a bottle of water there - unprofessional! Thank God that got changed.
I've also worked in a nursing home. Nurses aids are some of the hardest working, underpaid people there are. I worked myself to death everyday - ran as fast as I could. There's only so much, emotionally & physically a person can take - I felt myself getting an indifferent attitude due to the extreme demands & got out of nursing home care. There again - lots of levels of queen bees, not enough worker bees.
I had it out w/the assistant chief of nursing the day after Thanksgiving - we were swamped, I was charge nurse & there was no way we could keep up. I paged him several times for help - he said we had enough help - 3 nurses to take care of 70+ patients in 8 hrs - how do you do that? Oh, we did get a couple more nurses at noon... but he'd come down, look at the screen w/all the names of the patients & rub his chin & then walk out.
When I told him the problem w/our hospital is too many administrative layers in nursing that won't & don't do any patient care, he was quite offended. I've been in administration - used to be the nursing supervisor on off-tours (weekends, evenings). I worked in the ER & also took care of all the problems in the whole hospital! It used to be, the nursing supervisor was expected to help out in ER & also wherever needed in the hospital. We now have supervisors that won't even push a gurney!
So, looks like its just the human condition, whether gov't-socialized or insurance run (also basically socialized) - that people will try to get by w/whatever they can get by with. Seems that the Golden Rule isn't real important anymore - at least w/political/gov't & corporate greed.
Unless a person has standards/morals within himself/herself, any outside laws, rules, organization, gov't will degenerate over time to the lowest common denominator - at least if you've read any history, that's what has always happened.
Sooooo, I don't see anything different w/Obamacare than we already have, but I do fear the unknowns that politicians always throw into the pot - and the Obamacare bill is quite a large pot of unknowns!
Okay, I'm finished w/my rant :)
I guess not totally ::) The hospital tries to save money by cutting back on auxiliary help like clerks, health & lab techs etc. (they're a lot less expensive than nurses) So the RN's have to do everything from answering phones to transporting patients. I work w/nurses who also work at for-profit & community hospitals - they tell me that their total focus is on patient care - there is lots of auxiliary help to take the load off.
Now, I guess I got off-topic [slap] a bit because this was supposed to be about doctors... d*
Our docs are expected to totally follow certain clinical guidelines - in some ways that has improved care but in other ways it has taken away their assessment decisions - whether they think a patient needs something or not, whether they don't agree w/certain treatments - that isn't up to them - if a patient is diagnosed w/diabetes or heart disease, there are clinical guidelines for medications & care - & by-golly, they better follow them or be reprimanded. The hospital is graded by the % of patients have been placed on the protocol for whatever quideline that has been put in place. (and also funded, I might add)
And how are these guidelines made? From what I'm seeing, a lot of medicine is dictated by the pharmaceutical companies.
Anyway... better stop now, my coffee is wearing off... c*
The link in the OP is nonsense, like 95% of what's been written about the health care bill.
Death panels
Guns for the IRS
It's like a contest to see who can come up with the most crazy stuff.
It's a good bill
Hmmmm. The Census figures came out today and that means all the census workers are unemployed.
Every board I'm on seems to have a sudden influx of Government cheerleaders.
Could it be that the Census Workers were just transferred to the Troll under the bridge project! ;D
Quote from: peternap on December 21, 2010, 05:21:47 PM
Hmmmm. The Census figures came out today and that means all the census workers are unemployed.
Every board I'm on seems to have a sudden influx of Government cheerleaders.
Could it be that the Census Workers were just transferred to the Troll under the bridge project! ;D
so people with facts are trolls?
Quote from: Ajax on December 21, 2010, 05:55:19 PM
Quote from: peternap on December 21, 2010, 05:21:47 PM
Hmmmm. The Census figures came out today and that means all the census workers are unemployed.
Every board I'm on seems to have a sudden influx of Government cheerleaders.
Could it be that the Census Workers were just transferred to the Troll under the bridge project! ;D
so people with facts are trolls?
I didn't see any facts, just the wind blowing! [slap]
"I didn't see any facts, just the wind blowing!"
Hey I resemble that remark nuk nuk nuk
good one, Peter
Interesting read from a German inventor. His father sold his friends out to the Nazis, so he grew to hate him. He states in translation from German,
"The Communists had learned from history and did not want to leave so many dead bodies lying around at the end like the Nazis so they invented a new subtle killing mechanism, which even the Nazis could not get up and running, free health care.
Thus my mother was fetched not by soldiers or the police, but secretly from an ambulance to her execution. The communists - not troubled with large intelligence - counted simply that: Each murder is one less class enemy."
Something to look forward to. Who decides when we have had enough free health care, or if we are economically treatable...... or.... who gets to see if their name is on the secret list....
Glad I don't go to doctors any more than ABSOLUTELY necessary. [waiting]
http://wolfhartus.ipage.com/band1/a3.htm
I am currently out of the Health Care Profession. I just no longer want to deal with the mess. It is just too much and not worth my health.
It's better that way, Stink.... at least I don't have to fear you now... [scared]
My skills are still very up to date. muhahahahahahaha
(https://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f162/baritonobasso/Mr-Bill.jpg)
I'll be retiring soon - almost retired last July... I'm being told I need a new body! [waiting] Trying an alternative procedure first but have to pay for it out-of-pocket.
Hopefully, after 3 sessions of torture treatment I'll be good as new, if not, I'm being told I need bilat hip & knee replacements.
But, hey, I told the doc, if I can make it through the treatments, if I'm ever arrested & tortured, I'll be able to handle a pretty high level of pain d*
<hug>
Quote from: Sassy on December 20, 2010, 10:39:15 PM
Obamacare Endgame - Will your doctor be fined or jailed for putting your health first? So what is happening w/Obamacare? I thought it had been voted down...
Obamacare Endgame: Doctors Will be Fined or Jailed if they Put Patients First
by Dr. Elaina George
"If Obamacare is completely implemented, doctors will no longer be practicing medicine. They will instead become the drones tasked with deciding who gets the meager healthcare crumbs doled out by the bureaucrats who have the ultimate power over patient life and death. Those who are deemed to have illnesses that require treatments which are not cost effective can expect a one way ticket to a hospice."
"Like so many bills passed by Congress, there was a hidden provision in the Stimulus bill passed in 2009. It spends 1.1 billion dollars to create an important piece of the framework for the healthcare bill called the Coordinating Council on Comparative Effectiveness Research. It is based on the false premise that doctors in consultation with their patients don't have the ability to make the right healthcare choices (see executive summary). The council consists of 15 people appointed by the President."
http://biggovernment.com/egeorge/2010/10/30/obamacare-endgame-doctors-will-be-fined-or-jailed-if-they-put-patients
Been trying to find this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HnkxIh62dQ) ever since this thread was started...sorry it took me so long.
Thanks Phssthpok, that's the stuff I've read & been hearing. There's lots of medical doctors I know who are talking about getting out or retiring - it's not worth it to them.
That's another reason why they keep giving nurse practitioners more & more leeway in their practices - they're doing a lot of things that was only legal for the physician to perform.
Nurse practitioners (NP) & physicians assistants (PA) don't need as much education - a NP has a masters while a PA doesn't even need a masters or even a bachelors - at least that was true 3-4 years ago.
The docs I've talked with say it isn't worth it - they don't get paid enough for the responsibility, liability insurance & cost of education, plus the brutal internship/residency they have to go through.
I hear alot about doctors "getting out" but I dont see them hanging it up and going to work for Mcdonalds "would you like frys with that order?' People always complain about how mutch they make no mater how big thier salary is. At least with goverment having a say in your healthcare we have some say by our vote, trying voting the president of your insurance company out! Healthcare ran by insurance companies is so overpriced it is outof reach for lots of people and its time to try something differnt. I am not saying the government will be any better but at least it is possible. Insurance companies are a for profit business so do you really think they have your best intrest in mind? :-\
The challenge is, that there needs to be an incentive for people to become Doctors at enormous time and cost. I saw an girl with a BA in english literature with $160,000 of student loans working at a deli counter in a small grocery store. At this rate, she will never overcome that debt, it will be with her, most likely the remainder of her adult life. If someone is going to crank up $200 -$400K in educational costs, they need to have some reasonable expectation of adequate compensation to surmount those loans. If not, in 20 years we will have a serious lack of medical providers at a time when many of us will need it the most.
Quote from: Sassy on January 06, 2011, 01:03:24 AM
Thanks Phssthpok, that's the stuff I've read & been hearing. There's lots of medical doctors I know who are talking about getting out or retiring - it's not worth it to them.
That's another reason why they keep giving nurse practitioners more & more leeway in their practices - they're doing a lot of things that was only legal for the physician to perform.
Nurse practitioners (NP) & physicians assistants (PA) don't need as much education - a NP has a masters while a PA doesn't even need a masters or even a bachelors - at least that was true 3-4 years ago.
The docs I've talked with say it isn't worth it - they don't get paid enough for the responsibility, liability insurance & cost of education, plus the brutal internship/residency they have to go through.
At this point Sassy, Virginia has won the court case and we are not subject to Obamacare.
That will certainly be appealed I think. It really depends on what the Republicans do now.
the health care act is not about providing health care it is an omnibus bill that takes over everything
this is from an insider that told Lindsay Williams exactly that
A couple of anecdotal stories
My step son lives in Taiwan (teaches English)
he was in the hospital for 4 days from food poisoning
His bill was $35 T dollars (about a half tank of gasoline for a small car)
He has a son -- the hospital bill was IIRC under $100 for 3 weeks of care --which is normal -- he was perfectly healthy -- no complications
Taiwan is not a rich country -- how can they provide care for so cheap
Clearly there is something very messed up with the US health care system
but Obama care will only make it worse IMO
I have other stories from Greece and France
There is only one first world country on earth that does not have some form of government health care
So am I saying that we need a health care program that works (like maybe Medicare)
yeah I guess so
We can afford it (if we cut off the Pentagon and end the Federal Reserve ) and it will improve the society we live in
Quote from: Windpower on January 06, 2011, 10:45:50 AM
So am I saying that we need a health care program that works (like maybe Medicare)
yeah I guess so
We can afford it (if we cut off the Pentagon and end the Federal Reserve ) and it will improve the society we live in
I agree Windpower, but I don't see it anytime soon. The whole system is rotten with the only real healthcare coming from the Nurses.
Most Doctors I know are way too concerned with their income than they are with their patients.
I'm in the dog house this morning because I won't go to the Doctor. My comment was "Where would I find one except the Hospital?".
The era of Doc Adams (or in my case, Dr. Rowe) is long gone. Now it's Patient First or the ER.
I've been involved in minor party politics for almost a decade (currently a national officer), primarily because I decided the two majors were incapable of reforming themselves internally, so they had no chance at fixing the government.
I've spent thousands of hours grilling people I know, including patients who have seen the system fail, people selling insurance (who are getting out now that Obamacare has passed) to doctors (my father in law). The reality is, our medical system is expensive for several reasons (I'm only addressing cost here, not quality of care):
1) No cost transparency. Those who have insurance through an employer health plan don't realize their employer is paying a huge chunk of their premiums. Strike one because now you are insulated from the true cost of your insurance. That is money your employer could be paying YOU. Then you never see the cost of services up front. Strike two because you have no incentive to decide whether doing something is cost effective. Then the bill goes first to the insurance company, who negotiates it down with the provider. Then you see a bill for whatever is left. Why should I care whether a procedure costs $500 or $5000 if my insurance company pays all but $50. I see the $50 bill.
2) Liability. Equipment is used only once that could be sterilized and re-used because of liability. Doctors over-test because missing something could be a liability. People with minor conditions are not turned away at the emergency room and told to make an appointment with their doctor because of potential liability. There is a HUGE internal cost of protection from liability (through overspending and insurance) and dealing with liability (defending suits and settling). The problem here is widespread in our culture. If someone gets hurt or dies, it practically MUST BE SOMEONES FAULT or even if it isn't, "someone" should be required to make it up. We have become a society brainwashed into believing that life is safe, and when it isn't, someone is to blame.
3) Cost of education. Medical education is not only expensive, it is METERED. That is, certain specialties (the highest paying often) are artificially limited in how many can practice it by limiting residency opportunities. Every hear of supply and demand? Keep the supply of those specialties low, and the demand for their services high, and you can justify the salaries. Keep the salaries high, and the educational system can justify the cost of getting that degree.
Universal health insurance (which is what Obamacare really was) will not reduce costs, it will actually increase overall nationwide spending on healthcare, and distribute the cost among more people (the taxpayers). To fix healthcare COSTS (quality is another matter) you have to fix the above three problems.
Houston Dave, I agree w/your 3 points.
Seems like some of the worst abuse are those who don't have to pay anything - the ones who don't have any income... they will not hesitate to call an ambulance for the most minor problems (a sore finger) because they won't be charged, sometimes they get discharged from the ER & call the ambulance again & either go to the same hospital or another one.
Then there are those who will go to ER for any problem - problems that I would never dream of going to ER for... like, "I have a tickle in my throat." How long have you had it? "Three hours, I thought I better get it checked out in case I'm coming down w/something." d* d*
I was talking w/my primary care doc - he said the dentists were smart, they didn't get all tied up w/the insurance companies, so they are making big bucks.
A nurse I work with said her sister waited 5 years up in Canada for a hip replacement & has now waited 2+ years for her other hip & no guarantees that they will ever ok it.
I went to my primary care provider a couple weeks ago due to all the pain I was having, having difficulty walking, sleeping - in severe pain half way through my shifts in ER - he said he couldn't write for any time off from work, that my orthopedic surgeon needed to do that (although my primary care doc said the MRI of my back looked "nasty" & that I'll need surgery). Saw my orthopedic surgeon, he said there wasn't anything they could do surgically except fuse it all but that probably wouldn't do me any good & besides I need bilat hip & knee surgery 1st. So I asked him if he was taking me off work. He said, "I don't do that, you'll have to talk to your primary care provider, I'm just a surgeon." Didn't tell me whether I had any limitations or nothing. Talk about being tossed around. So, it is almost midnight, I've worked 12 1/2 hrs, I'm hurting bad, limping... what do you do???
The medical system is messed up here for sure...
Quote from: Sassy on January 09, 2011, 02:48:35 AM
Houston Dave, I agree w/your 3 points.
Seems like some of the worst abuse are those who don't have to pay anything - the ones who don't have any income... they will not hesitate to call an ambulance for the most minor problems (a sore finger) because they won't be charged, sometimes they get discharged from the ER & call the ambulance again & either go to the same hospital or another one.
Then there are those who will go to ER for any problem - problems that I would never dream of going to ER for... like, "I have a tickle in my throat." How long have you had it? "Three hours, I thought I better get it checked out in case I'm coming down w/something." d* d*
I was talking w/my primary care doc - he said the dentists were smart, they didn't get all tied up w/the insurance companies, so they are making big bucks.
A nurse I work with said her sister waited 5 years up in Canada for a hip replacement & has now waited 2+ years for her other hip & no guarantees that they will ever ok it.
I went to my primary care provider a couple weeks ago due to all the pain I was having, having difficulty walking, sleeping - in severe pain half way through my shifts in ER - he said he couldn't write for any time off from work, that my orthopedic surgeon needed to do that (although my primary care doc said the MRI of my back looked "nasty" & that I'll need surgery). Saw my orthopedic surgeon, he said there wasn't anything they could do surgically except fuse it all but that probably wouldn't do me any good & besides I need bilat hip & knee surgery 1st. So I asked him if he was taking me off work. He said, "I don't do that, you'll have to talk to your primary care provider, I'm just a surgeon." Didn't tell me whether I had any limitations or nothing. Talk about being tossed around. So, it is almost midnight, I've worked 12 1/2 hrs, I'm hurting bad, limping... what do you do???
The medical system is messed up here for sure...
There isn't much I can say about this thread Sassy. Kinda like talking about pure cane sugar, I don't use it....but I sure feel for you right now!
A whole lot of prayers are going your way!
Quote from: Sassy on January 09, 2011, 02:48:35 AM
A nurse I work with said her sister waited 5 years up in Canada for a hip replacement
This sort of report is confusing to me.
My Mom, life long resident of Canada, broke a hip when she was 85 just a few years ago. They had replacement parts in her within days of the break and had her in rehab right soon after that. I was surprised to say the least, but also happy. Unfortunately due to other things she never fully recovered and had to use a walker, then a wheelchair until she died. But she was never denied care. She did refuse some things near the end, but that was her choice.
Just had to toss that into the mix as it is something we experienced first hand, no second hand anecdotes.
Quote from: MountainDon on January 09, 2011, 11:45:09 AM
Quote from: Sassy on January 09, 2011, 02:48:35 AM
A nurse I work with said her sister waited 5 years up in Canada for a hip replacement
This sort of report is confusing to me.
My Mom, life long resident of Canada, broke a hip when she was 85 just a few years ago. They had replacement parts in her within days of the break and had her in rehab right soon after that. I was surprised to say the least, but also happy. Unfortunately due to other things she never fully recovered and had to use a walker, then a wheelchair until she died. But she was never denied care. She did refuse some things near the end, but that was her choice.
Just had to toss that into the mix as it is something we experienced first hand, no second hand anecdotes.
It's always good to hear two different sides Don.
I expect different situations are treated differently and maybe dependent on the locality or even the facility. The horror stories always make better press.
All the emergency rooms here brag about their triage and priority procedures. Chest pains are always on the top of the list as is severe trauma.
I took a business partner to the ER in a local hospital a few years ago with chest pains and he passed out in the waiting room, in the 3 hours he waited to be looked at.
I also took one of my carpenters to the same hospital (There aren't many around) who had nearly severed a finger on a table saw. After an hour, he started raising hell and the police were called. They escorted him off of the property without being treated..
Point is, health care is never black and white.
Thanks for the prayers, Peter! I always can use them. I had one of the docs I work with look at my report, he deals with a lot of trauma & has also had problems w/his back. He read my report & said I had multiple levels of severe problems w/my spine & I needed to see a neurosurgeon & need surgery. My primary care doc said the same thing about surgery. Anyway, I definitely won't be going back to that ortho surgeon! The doc I work with also works in the community & is one I would trust w/my life & he is very conservative - he wouldn't tell me this if I didn't need it. He said I should not be working in the ER, shouldn't be lifting etc etc & that I needed to be put on disability, see a neurosurgeon ASAP & get things taken care of. Not good news but at least I know what I'm looking at. He says that I should feel significantly better after the surgery - I have bone fragments that are probably giving me so much pain.
As far as hip surgery - I'm sure a fracture would be taken care of right away. Something like I have, severe osteoarthritis, bone on bone in both my hips & knees would go under the case of waiting like the one I cited above who had to wait 5 yrs. The fracture can't be ignored, someone in pain & restricted mobility can, without being accused of malpractice.
In our ER we take anyone w/chest pain immediately & place them on a monitor, do a 12 lead ECG within the 1st 10 min of their arrival - we are also required to do the ECG on any pt who c/o light headedness, shortness of breath, abd pain within 10 min & show it to the doc so he can see if there are any acute changes that show either ischemia (less blood flow) or an actual heart attack. We are required to have a 95% completion rate for those problems. Our hospital is graded & funded on these & other parameters met. Someone w/a lacerated finger or even other lacerations (except head injury - they will be seen right away & get a head CT to make sure there isn't a bleed) will have to wait if the ER is busy - it isn't life threatening, although it may be scary to look at & hurt like crazy. If they are bleeding a lot or possibly an internal organ is effected, then of course their triage priority would be a lot higher & they'd be seen asap. Depending how much acting out a patient does, if he's a danger to others, yes, he might be escorted out by the police. One hour is not very long to wait in most ER's because we are usually so busy - unless it is one of the problems I mentioned above.
Again, there are good docs & bad docs... Good hospitals & bad... most people say that the hospital up where we live is terrible, only go there to die. My experience when I had the problems w/my gallbladder, they were fantastic. They diagnosed it correctly & due to the complications of it causing pancreatitis & my liver getting messed up from it, they transferred me out to a higher level hospital (actually one of the best in Calif) within 3 hrs I was on my way by ambulance. They medicated me for pain & nausea right away, did a CT, blood work & all - I couldn't have asked for better care. So, I guess everyone's experience is different.