CountryPlans Forum

Didn't we look at these about a year ago?

Too big for the 200 sf house, but....

http://www.medfordfuel.com/monitor_stoves.htm

We have one at our place in the valley.  Super efficient - about 98% or close as I remember -they even recover exhaust heat - run fine on diesel - conservatively heat the house for about $200 per year at current off road prices -

Do they benefit from having a less "dry heat" like the pellet stoves also do because of the fresh air intake?

I'm not sure about how that figures in but the intake air comes in from outside through a 2" tube that has the exhaust -appx 1" tube in the center of it -a heat exchanger - the exhaust is cool enough to put your hand in front of.  Very slight diesel smell outside when running -probably no smell with kerosene.  No smell at all inside -clean heat - no soot- no ashes- automatic thermostat with 2 on times two off times per day - low temp backup in case of power failure- purges air 3 minutes on startup and shut down.  Set min and max at each time setting.

I pointed these out to DH and he commented that they will also run on biodiesel.  Has anyone out there tried that?  And does that mean we could potentially heat our house with used McDonald's fryolator oil?

In many parts of the country oil is a more economical fuel per delivered BTU. It is also true that propane is more popular here in the Northwest but oil delivery is pretty available as well.

Here is a freestanding oil stove that I have been thinking about getting when I get tired of moving chunks of wood three times.

• PDF brochure: http://www.napoleonfireplaces.com/Webshare/Brochures/OS10_OS11.pdf
• Review: http://hearth.com/ratesingles/rate955.html
• 16 page installation manual (PDF):
http://www.napoleonfireplaces.com/Webshare/installation_manuals/Savoy_OS 11.pdf

Glen:
What is the low temp back up on the monitor stove.
Also, can you differentiate between stove oil, kerosene, and diesel?
Howard

The backup is for after the power has gone out and you have to re-program the timer - its a mechanical slide switch that will maintain your temperature at a preset minimum until you re-program the clock - about a 5 minute process.  Clock set plus 4 time and temp settings -fairly intuitive - only have to attempt retraining my self a couple times after a power out.  This unit does use a little 120 v power for the purge fan and blower.  It is the best heater we have ever had.  You can set heat to go down at night -on before you get up - down after you go to work-on before you get home and down after you go to bed.

Not sure on the exact specs of stove oil - diesel and kerosene except that I'm pretty sure the kerosene is a bit more refined to burn cleaner.  This unit works well on #2 red diesel -no road tax on that so it is cheaper - I have seen outrageous prices on kerosene in stores - not sure about in bulk.  We have been using ours for around 7 years if I recall correctly with no problems or maintenance except to change the diesel filter at the tank.

I took some photos of all the major portions of this heater with the new camera - I'm starting to think you can't take a bad one with it--  I'm at the house in the valley  where the heater is now - dial up connection so posting them will have to wait until I get back to the underground command complex.

Ailsa, the only thing I would be concerned about with the biodiesel is that you go to the more advanced processes of making the biodiesel - that it's viscosity is similar to at least #2 diesel then I am pretty sure it would work -no problem.  

I say this because a friend uses biodiesel in a Ford diesel pickup -sometimes it congeals in his lines a bit -I don't think he refines it enough and the truck gets very hard to start.  This would be a problem as this heater uses gravity feed to it then a small pump to go to the burner.  Air must be purged from the lines initially or it won't run - clicking sound from the pump if no fuel.

They run kerosene or oil...can you alternate as is, or are there components that need to be changed out like propane/natural gas appliances have?

I don't know (probably some kind of difference between fuels, maybe not as much as between Natural and LP gas).

But I discovered this last night--it would be particularly interesting to me if it works on flow instead of Pressure which it kind of looks like it does.  On-demand Kerosene hot water heater by Toyotomi.

http://www.toyotomiusa.com/products/OM-148.html

Nothing to change on the Monitor - it does list diesel in the book if I remember right - we run number 2 diesel as is.

(https://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d184/glennkangiser/Panasonic12-23-05020.jpg)
The Monitor is made to go near an outside wall -the heat exchanger/exhaust-intake goes through the wall.

(https://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d184/glennkangiser/Panasonic12-23-05021.jpg)
The manual minimum low setting and pump primer is on the side.

(https://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d184/glennkangiser/Panasonic12-23-05022.jpg)
Heat exchanger exhaust and fan looking from top down in back of the Monitor.

(https://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d184/glennkangiser/Panasonic12-23-05023.jpg)
Programing panel on the front - top right corner for easy access - you can set manual temp from here and return to automatic program easily.

(https://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d184/glennkangiser/Panasonic12-23-05024.jpg)
This is all that sticks out the side of the house -the large intake pipe is about 2" dia.  I think there is a longer distance optional heat exchanger pipe available.

It looks very nice.

And the top remains cool enough that you can keep pictures on it.

(there's been a discussion on another list that not using outside air can sometimes be a good thing because it keeps ventilation going in the house--somebody noted that one pre-electricity way of keeping air moving in the Deep South was to put a small fire in an upstairs fireplace)

This one has 2 fans so outside air is used only for combustion and purging -- never a pop or explosion, but almost all the heat from the exhaust is recovered as the intake air in the outside pipe is swirled around the smaller exhaust air pipe.

This is Japanese technology at it's finest.  It's not central heating  but placed in the right location in the house it does a very good job.  That house is about 1800 square feet.

Very nice...!  Brings back old memories....when I lived in Yokouska, Japan and Naha, Okinawa....no centeral heat there...:)

Can you give us an idea as to make, model and cost.  

Thanks

Mine is old - a 441 Monitor - From Amanda's link above I see the new equivalent is the 2400 and list on that site is $1579.00  -I paid $1750 getting a deal from a friend - ouch -  - actually list then was $2000 or so.

From the site - cost of heat stats -- I agree -- up to 2000 sq ft heating ability  but they have a smaller one.  The cost of electric heat would pay for your Monitor and fuel in the first year. :o
(//%3Cbr%20/%3Ehttp://www.monitorheaters.com/clipart/monitorgraph.jpg)

Here the "Monitor" website:

http://www.monitorproducts.com/monitor.htm

How good is it at circulating the heat around?  I read one guy's site slamming the monitor, and pushing the Toyos...something about the control panel costs an arm and a leg if IRC.   The heaters run less than $1500 Here are some sites from my searching:
Monitor:
http://www.medfordfuel.com/monitor_stoves.htm
http://www.alsheating.com/MonitorHeater.htm
Some Prices here:
http://www.houseneeds.com/shop/HeatingProducts/RoomHeaters/monitor/monitorheaterslineupindex.htm
Toyo:
http://www.toyotomiusa.com/products/LaserVentedHeaters.html (that 60A looks nice)

Of course you still need a tank, piping, installation, and perhaps a pump if you can't gravity feed.  I'm really interested in the circulation of these.  They do have models that should heat the size of our house, but I wonder about circulating between floors and if my vent and fan idea would keeps us warm wherever with one large central one, or would a few smaller ones be better.  

I expect that that all forms of heat will be up this winter because Natural Gas has at least doubled.

It's a nice clean fuel, I gather that a lot of people are trying to switch to it for that reason, but we're starting to import it, still having to build the tankers to carry the stuff, not to mention ports where they can unload.

I wish I were handy enough to think of methane digesters or the hydrogen boosted stuff.

The Monitor has a pretty healthy fan on it - how it is positioned to blow the air is pretty important.  You can enhance the circulation by ducting the cold air from a distant room back behind the monitor -that will pull the cool air into the heater from behind and the warm air will find it's way to the low pressure area created at the far side of the house.  Shutters may be necessary behind the heater to make this most effective. Use something like flex duct or  possibly you could duct through between your floor joists.

I am not familiar with the other brand. :)

After reading Al's editorial on the Monitor I feel that the Toyo would be a better choice.  Al seems to be the kind of guy that tells you how it is.  I probably just ended up with one that is better than average.  I still haven't had  problems with mine.  

If considering the Monitor I would suggest checking this out - thanks for the link, Daddymem.

Monitor Editorial by Al (http://www.alsheating.com/Editorial.htm)

Al claims that the 441-442's were the start of the quality decline in Monitors and new ones are as bad or worse- parts are inferior and repairs cost double those of the Toyo.  He claims he makes the same on either-  that doesn't mean that the company didn't do something to tick him off- but  I would research it well if spending that much money.  He also mentions that there is nothing that will touch the efficiency of these types of heaters.

Not Recommended by Al (http://www.alsheating.com/MonitorHeaterProblemsComplaintsRepairs.htm)

When a guy gets that detailed on the whys and wherefores it seems he would know what he is talking about. I also have questions about the knowledge of the guy who sold me mine.  Once again -no problem with ours over  about 7 or 8 years.

Thanks Glenn.  I read his stuff and that is why I was leaning towards Toyo, but being ignorant on these I didn't want to peddle his rant tooo much without objectivity.  We are having a guy price Toyo for us but he said he wouldn't sell it to us unless he found someone local to service it.  He says they need maintenance yearly.  Anyways, we are pricing out the different heating options as follows:

Toyo kerosene/oil heater
Forced hot water-Euro radiators (ouch expensive)
Geothermal Heatpump (we already need a well anyways)

Anyone know anything about those Hydrosil electric heaters they sell in Yankee Magazine?...oh wait most of y'all ain't yankees...Here (http://www.hydrosil.com/).

Any other "non-space heater" we should consider? (Pellet stoves are considered space heaters)

ROFL...got an estimate from a geothermal place...$17,000 for a system....riiiiiight  ;D ;D ;D

You may want to ask the Al character about the Toyo too.  He's up your direction,  Yearly maintenance seems odd- maybe true.  We have done zero  maintenance on the Monitor except change the filter on the tank when it plugs.

I've heard..."warnings" about that guy, we'll leave it at that.  :D

I was by the house in the valley tonight- checked the Monitor - a 441 - it is still working great and "0" spent on maintenance, my wife said it has been almost 9 years - heating every winter for about 4 months.  No obscene fan noises or anything that worries me.

I will probably end up buying one or two LP Rinnai units (very similar to the Monitors).
They sound like real efficient boxes.

I called about the hydro-sil heaters. They sound pretty interesting and not terribly expensive with a life time guarantee. He's sending us a brochure that we should get by Saturday, if there's anything good in it you'll find more posted. It's energy star efficient and inexpensive! This might be our way to go. We'll see...

The Monitor heater looks interesting.  Any drawbacks off grid?  A total newbie about off-grid issues, but will have to learn FAST as it will be our new lifestyle.

They do use electricity(run fans and such). How much, you'll have to check the web site.

Daddymem:
did you ever figure out what the final verdict is on your heating situation?

Here's my take:
radiant in the basement with pex in the slab.
woodstove in the living room
monitor-type (rinnai?) propane units in the kitchen and possibly the office
either electric heater mats under the master and kids bath tile floor or gypcrete and more pex connected to the radiant
we may need to install some hole-in-the-floor registers, but I don't want to for privacy's sake

Nope...just another drama.

Banks are giving us grief.  They say it has to be central heating (forced hot air, forced hot water, radiant, or electric baseboard, heatpump, etc.) and that monitors, wood stoves, and pellet stoves are space heaters.  We found another way...there is this guy who will finance based on the final value of what you build.  So far seems legit, really nice guy, admits he doesn't make a great living doing this but he enjoys it.  We'll see.  (Small world story...this guy's son lives on the same small pond as my Grandmother in Freedom)  The other problem is the Town may have a say in what we use to heat using the same argument about central heating.  We may know today, we may have to wait until next week (the plumbing inspector is on vacation).

What we want:
Pex in the slab for possible future use
Woodstove or pellet stove, center of the house, we'll see if we need floor registers
Rinnai propane heater

What we know:
Went to get an estimate for hot water heat.  Plumber says "you have to go radiant" wife says "no", plumber insists...we get an estimate with radiant heat on the first floor, baseboard on the second.  $25,000!!! "New plumber" says I.

Forced hot air-not an option since we have no walls to hide ducts in.  Haven't researched any more than that.

Geothermal-bad idea around here...just not enough roi....except the cost was actually lower than bonehead plumber #1 at $20000.  Besides, where do you hide those ducts?

Hydrosil-bad.  Too expensive and no benefit over normal electric (boogie woogie woogie) heat.

Toyo/Monitor, etc. Kero/Fuel Oil-great idea, not easy to find someone to supply, service, or even sell it.  We can go to that Al guy and we are close enough to pick up. Still need someone to install it since ours would be a pump system.  Would have an oil tank in our basement then.  Same comment over and over, fuel oil changes composition when it sits and therefor requires more maintenance.  Toyo guy wouldn't even sell us one unless he found someone to agree to service it.

Monitor/Rinnai, etc. Propane-great idea.  Bury the tank in the yard and have a good source for gas stove top, gas dryer, and gas hot water heater.

Wood stove/pellet stove- great idea if wood is cheap and available.  If you travel, you need to make arrangements or have a backup heat source.  Get a new epa model, they are more efficient. Skip the outdoor model, too polluting.

Coal stove-making a comeback.  If coal is available to you, could be an interesting option.

Electric baseboard-expensive to run.  This may actually be our fall back to get us into our house.  The units are cheap.  We can get them installed by our electrician friend, get our occupancy permit then take them out, sell them and use that money to buy the monitor.  :D

I'll let you know when we know what we are doing.  ;)

Better news?  Well is in, got good clean water.  A little low on PH (corrosive potential), and a little high on maganese (color, odor possible) but deemed potable by the epa standards.
Specifics? 4" PVC, 46-feet deep.

40' well? that's not a well -around here it's a post hole.  Mines 675' deep -1 gpm.  Good job. ;D

We commonly leave our #2 diesel in the tank until the next heating season - say 8 months - most of the way down then add new - change the filter once every year or two - no problem - your oil will gel if not kept warm I think- too freakin' cold there- brrrr - bummer.

Believe it or not...he went too deep.  I warned him, but again who listens.  My parents well: there is a 4x4x4 hole in their basement floor with an open bottom, say 12 feet to bottom of pit.  Dad drives a well point by hand 15-20 feet.  27-32 feet is it and nice clean water.  This guy missed that nice lens.  Bedrock is 80 feet down where I am.  There are aquifers around here that could supply Boston should the Quabbin become a problem.

Daddymem, have you talked to Radiantec (www.radiantec.com) yet?
Here's my thought: you're going to put PEX in the basement anyway, right? Couldn't you just connect it to your hot water heater in an inexpensive open system and do it yourself?
Radiantec is over in your neck of the woods, too.
I think you can heat your whole little house with those Rinnai's but you have to satisfy the bank....
Even if you don't want to heat your basement (you may also have doubts or issues about an open system too, but you don't have to use it- and you can easily use the setup to adapt to a "closed" solar heating setup  later on) , turn off the valves to the PEX system and just use the Rinnais. You're only paying extra for the expansion tank, a very small manifold (one zone), and the plumbing parts to hook it up to the hot water tank you're already going to buy. Then you can satisfy the bank, and install those "space heaters" to add a little extra heat. :)
Get a quote and see what it costs. "Example" quotes for a 2000 sq ft house with multiple zones were $5-7 with a $3000 hot water tank (which you do not need to buy). Obviously your case would be much less, and -$3000 since you're not buying a fancy Polaris water heater. John Hyslop is doing radiant in his house with a regular water heater.
I think he said he's doing an open system and he did it all himself, or maybe with a little help for the hookup.
I don't think you want to involve the pricy plumber. He costs too much. Maybe just use a plumber friend for the valve hookup if you're not confident with sweating a pipe. You can definitely do the PEX all by yourself, though.

Mommymem is meeting with Rinnai guy today, cross our fingers that he can help us. The radiant would not satisfy the Town unless it was put into every room.  Radiant works in John's house because he is on a slab and will only do the bottom floor.  I live in the land of permits and inspections and we have a majorly powerful mafia plumber's union; you have to go with the flow or get swept up by an ambitious plumbing inspector (also does the heat).  Our hopes is 1 Rinnai installed for under $5000 (tank, vent, unit, propane lines, etc.)  I would like to rig a system with our woodstove to circulate hot water to the basement slab.  We are picking and poking at what work we will do, we are limited in time and building the house itself is a large task by itself, nevermind electric, plumbing, heating, etc.

Believe me, I know what you mean.

I think it's ridiculous that they want to make you put radiant on every floor in every room!
John's is on a slab, but he doesn't have radiant upstairs... If you had to, you could put radiant in the basement and in the first floor and do staple up, but I wouldn't if I could avoid it.
Well, good luck on getting them to figure it out then. Maybe they would count floor registers for upstairs rooms? (there goes privacy then) What do people with other similar types of houses that won't accomodate ducts do (post and beam, etc)?
I hope I don't have a similar situation.

Do you need AC in the summer.  I spent a year in Barnstable 25 years ago and don't recall that need.

Around here we are hot and cold and need both.  Most peole settle for forced air.  Too much $$$ for multiple systems.

Sounds way to norm I know.  But there are some creative ways to box out ducts.

keyhole

I saw the plumbing inspector yesterday and asked him about the Rinnai heater. He LOVES them! So we are set to go with the propane heater and woodstove. Inspector said these systems are very nice and pretty efficient and that they are becoming more popular now. As for A/C we have a couple window units already that are only a couple years old. I would assume we'll just use those since we only really need A/C for like 10 days out of the year.

So it's only a matter of getting the bank to approve them as "whole house heating" instead of "space heating"?

This new guy we're dealing with out of NH already approves of them. He's been great and we don't need a builder with a license and insurance to sign for us. This bank is for owner/builders, David @FD sent me to him. Now we're just waiting for all our sub contract quotes to come in and our rescheck then we can pull our permit.

Hurrah for you guys! Glad you were able to get past the heating hurdle.
I will be doing the same exact thing for heating as well.
Are you buying the Rinnai heater(s) from a local guy or the internet?
What models?

We are getting it from a local gas company, Amerigas, and he's suggested getting the RHFE-1004A model. This one will do no problem heating the whole house. Maybe in the future we'll get a smaller one for in the basement when we finish that off. And as a bonus for using Amerigas, when we sign up for propane for 5 yrs they throw in a 40-50 gal hot water heater for free! Can't beat free!!

Well insulated Energy Star water heater?

Otherwise they may make enough money off of you to be worth giving you the heater!

Update on the Monitor -- while they usually work good when new, I seems that the Monitor is not reliably repairable when it breaks since the Monitor people are more brokers than manufacturers.

We replaced ours with a Toyo, or Rinnai is also a good reliable reparable heater.

Talk to Al's Heating in Brunswick, ME, for the straight story.  www.alsheating.com

We love our Rinnai...thought it doesn't go on very often since we heat primarily with the wood.  We set the Rinnai on low and it will keep it acceptable in here overnight and if we are away.

Are you burning oil or Kerosene, Daddymem?

I can't think of a more efficient heater than this- except wood for cost of operation.

Propane, makes the most sense where we are.  We listened to AL too.

Hey, I recently tenanted a house equipped with a Monitor MPI 441.   From the manual I've downloaded on Monitor's site it says only to use kero/#1/stove oil/etc, but some of you are saying you run #2 successfully?  IIRC offroad diesel ($1.80-ish/gal locally) is the same as #2, so you can see why this piqued my interest.


Also, sorry to bump such an old thread, but after thirty minutes Googling these units I only discovered Al's site and this thread.  :P

#2 red diesel works great but believe Al about the Monitor -- it is not repairable once it's done.  It worked great until it went out though.  The diesel was not the cause of it's problem. 

We now have a Toyo running red diesel - Al said it was OK.  We are low sulfur here too.

Toyo (Toyotomi) and Rinnai are great stoves.  Monitor is an assembler of misc. cheap parts from random place and don't stand behind their product well like the others do.  Al will no longer repair them.