I found out this week that my septic permit is still valid (Yay!) As I get closer to actually breaking ground, I have questions. Do you generally put the septic system in first? I know there's the risk of driving over it. Or is it usually done with the other excavation, or? What about size- can the system be too big? We had our property perc tested for a 4 bedroom house, since we wanted to make sure it wasn't borderline before we bought it. We won't actually be building a 4 bedroom, or anything near that size. The permit calls for a 1000 gallon tank, and 280' of field. Is this too big for two people? Is there any harm in having a system that big, or will it function properly? I'm afraid that if I make any changes, I'll have to get a new inspection and permit. I'd rather let sleeping dogs lie, and all that.
I'm no expert ... but methinks the system can never be too big. The actilve bug colony will adjust to the "nutrient supply" ... too much space is not an issue. Just make an effort to keep bushes and trees from ever growing in the drain field area ... nothing with long/deep root system. Some mowed non-running lawn grass is best. I like the idea of a filter before the drain field ... you are less apt to have a problem if your system is large, but it still is a good add-on unless you already have such a device.
Plan to have your tank pumped in four years ... from this first time pumping, you may discover a different pumping frequency will work for you. Then calenderized the later pumpings ... never to be missed.
If you have question best call your official agency. If I had real concerns I would just give them a call and lay it out. Nothing that is written here is as good them telling you heck yes you are okay. I have found here after putting in the couple systems they are very good to work with, within the law. I might not even give them a real name. Tell them you are permitted for a four BR dwelling. That plan when south. Our plans are now down to a one or two BR dwelling, is there any changes in permitting?
I can tell you around here that is pretty much a standard size. Reason is you right now might now want a one, two BR. Next year you sell, the people you sell to the following year want to add two BRs. Or you decided to add on two BR. Some times of course additions to house never get a building permit. You wake up one morning and just do it. I think the health departments figure off that a lot. What they are looking for is the large family home that might need to go 1500+ gallon 360 + feet of drain field.
There is a theory that you can build to big and there is a theory that if you do not use them six or eight months out of the year they will go bad. I never have seen it in published writing, mostly theory on the gossip tree. If you have long period where there is no usage it certainly never hurts to flush some yeast or septic starter down the drain.
Yes you can put them in before you do anything or when they dig the clearance for your foundation or what ever. Ours has been in for three year now. It is hooked up to a couple RV pads. We know where it is at and we do not drive over the tank or the drain field. We plan on starting the house next year. We then will clearly mark a no mans land when truck and tractors and stuff shall no go. You could do so by just driving some steel tee posts every ten feet or twenty feet and attaching yellow caution tape you can get at the bog box store.
WOW! JRR that is great advise!
I want to get the system in before the permit expires, although I still have a year. I'll call them and ask about whether the size is OK or not- I was just looking for real-world experience, as opposed to what a rule book says. I also want to find out if they'll let me tie my barn into the same system. I plan to at least have a work sink out in the barn, and maybe even a toilet. I'm starting to reach that age where trips to the bathroom are more frequent, and I'd rather not hike all the way to the house if I can help it.
Funny- when I was a kid, we had a summer cottage with a septic system, and we only used it 3-4 months out of the year. We never had trouble with it.
That might be a lot of work to connect your barn to your sewer for just the use of a sink. You might ask them what they would suggest just for a gray water system out there. Some times you can just get away with a simple pit with some drain rock depending on the soil. However if your are going to incorporate a toilet all bets are off. How is your grade between the septic tank and barn? If it is steep you about have to do stair steps or like a four foot riser the go horizontal then another riser then horizontal again an so on.
I agree as many system tanks and drain fields that are just never used for months on end then get used a summer season and work well I just do not buy in to the theory of them going bad with out use.
I don't remember ever seeing a septic tank smaller then 1000 gallons and have never heard of any special problems due to seasonal use---the "bug" population rapidly re-establishes itself when usage picks up in the spring. Problem systems are more commonly due to over usage or putting too much kitchen garbage down the drain---it doesn't break down like bathroom input and can eventually tend to clog your drain field laterals.
And of course that is why a garbage disposal is not really recommended for a septic system...
I think septics are usually sized based on bedrooms. Where I'm at, it's 1000 gallon tank for a single b/r, 1250 for 2 and 1500 for three. (I think I'm remembering that right!)
The drainfield is based both on tank size and soil quality. What you have permitted sounds about right...
So far as when you put it in, you're right in that you can't be driving over it after it's in. But you're also not supposed to be driving over it BEFORE it goes in. It's needs to be un-compacted soil...
We're planning on putting our septic in after the house is mostly up, but we already know where it's going to be and have fenced it off like rick mentions. (We used barbed wire though, rather than yellow tape ;) )
Quote from: rick91351 on October 02, 2010, 01:38:06 PM... How is your grade between the septic tank and barn? If it is steep you about have to do stair steps or like a four foot riser the go horizontal then another riser then horizontal again an so on. ...
Actually, that is an old wives tale ... studies have proven there is no problem with steep slopes in an average residential lateral (4" PVC), and most residential building codes specify no maximum slope for normal residential plumbing.
Quote from: rick91351 on October 02, 2010, 01:38:06 PM... How is your grade between the septic tank and barn? If it is steep you about have to do stair steps or like a four foot riser the go horizontal then another riser then horizontal again an so on. ...
Interesting here that is code. Or was the last one I put in per the State Health Inspector and his instructions and booklet.
Rick,
Here's a link to the Stafford County, VA guidelines for Sanitary Sewer Systems Standards:
http://stafford.va.us/Departments/Utilities/Water_and_Sewer_Design_and_Construction_Standards/asset_upload_file817_9370.pdf
At section 3.3.1 Sewer House Connections, there is wording as follows: "The minimum and maximum slope for a sewer lateral shall be 2.08% and 100% respectively.".
While maximum slope for residential laterals, which this thread is discussing, is not addressed in most codes, Stafford County publishes that any slope from 2.08% to 100% is acceptable. This is just an example that engineers know that too much slope is not a problem. Hope this helps.
Septic and sewer are two entirely different things. On sewer there is no maximum slope but there may be some restrictions on the type of materials used when slope exceeds a 45 degree angle.
Septic systems from the tank and on can have slope restrictions. Its how the flow is controlled and dispersed evenly in the drain field.
That's true Frank, but I was addressing the slope issue that was raised concerning MushCreeks desire to run a line (similar to a lateral) from his barn to his septic tank some distance away. That issue would be the same whether the line connected to a septic tank or to a municipal sewer main.
I agree with the connection being more or less the same. I was only trying to separate the two differences. You also have different inspections. Plumbing for the inside, Heath district on septic and Sewer district on sanitary sewer. There will be different people to please having different code with each.
My course of action if I were in your shoes would be to get that sucker started and completed (if necessary) within the time frame and scope of your original permit. You never know when things might change, be it fees, the process in general, or the system requirements. It would be unfortunate if that basic gravity system was no longer acceptable, and the new requirement was something involving sand filters, pressure distribution, UV light, or other complex systems. Also, your municipality might decide that it's no longer ok to go ahead with infrastructure unless you have a building permit in hand, which is the case where my property is.
I'm going to call and ask a few more questions. I'm not quite ready to build yet, but come January, SC goes over to IRC 2009, so I want to get my permits before that. As long as I get the permit this year, I'm grandfathered in for the rest of the build. If nothing else, I can get IRC 2006 for free; 2009 I'd have to pay for. The septic permit is good for a little over a year, so I should be fine, but if something happens to delay the build, I'd rather have it in the ground and signed off.
For us a permit needs to be acted on including an inspection for some phase of work within 6 months or it is considered abandoned and needs to be repulled. The last code cycle for us tightened septic. We have one house on a ridge that went through several years ago with a conventional septic. Next door the guy got caught by the change, $20k septic. This spring that put the halt to another neighbor who wanted us to build. The folks we are working for now saw that coming and put in the tank and field and we are building this year... glad they beat the curve!
On max slope... I'm weak here but it was explained to me and I've read articles in the past that too much slope stranded the solids and risked clogging the lines. Does one of you have reading material that explains your thinking?
Quote from: Don_P on October 04, 2010, 07:42:09 AM... Does one of you have reading material that explains your thinking?
Don,
Here's a link from an engineer. May be similar to MushCreeks situation. Many more out there on the 'net from plumbers & engineers that dispel the myth.
http://www.pmmag.com/CDA/Archives/830d83d4ebfc7010VgnVCM100000f932a8c0
Here's a link that includes a reply from HJ (who I consider to be one of the more/most knowledgeable plumbers who share their experience on the internet):
http://www.plbg.com/forum/read.php?1,199223,199249#msg-199249
PA, Thanks for the info [cool]
Quote from: Don_P on October 04, 2010, 04:33:32 PM
PA, Thanks for the info [cool]
You're welcome ... I like doing things the simple way, as long as I know the simple way works !
That's all very interesting. The barn will be a bit higher than the house- maybe 5 feet or so. I suppose there's a way to hook it all up so the stuff coming from higher than the house can't back up into the house. Or do you just connect the barn pipe to the tank, and connect the house pipe to another inlet on the tank, and call it good? I'm going to pay to have the tank and field installed; might as well pay them to connect the drains, too.
Thats very interesting no max on drop in a sewer pipe. I have always been so careful not to get too mutch pitch. Reading this forum is always usefull and rewarding. [cool]
You can add a back flow preventer in line at the house connection if there is the chance water could back up. I don't like using them anymore than I have to tho.
Maximum slope is determined by the ones you get your permit through. It has nothing to do with what others do. As far as water running away from solids I don't believe it can, not even in a vertical pipe. It will falls at the same rate. Solids can catch but will break loose and flush. PVC & ABS is slippery stuff! You have to check with your local inspectors. If they say not to exceed a certain slope then that is the law as far as they're concerned.
There are other issues other then "water leaving the solids" when you exceed a 45 degree slope.One local district I work in has told me their requirements are partly from past insurance claims. Steep slopes bend / break fitting or can pull a joint apart if there is settlement in driveways and such.