http://news.yahoo.com/video/politics-15749652/18734871;_ylt=AsGskCDeoRdCwGYhUYVSKsH3SpZ4
I'm not a political person, don't have the time. What exactly will this bill do?
This bill gives the united states goverment the right to choose which of their citizens have the right to live and which of them should die.
They will stop giving anyone over the age of 70 health care. As Hairy Reed stated they have to accept that they had their turn. And Obama said. Give them a pain pill and send them home.
It will save a lot on Social Security.
Bottom line.
This bill will reduce the deficit by $130 billion in ten years. This bill will make affordable health insurance available to 25 million people who could not get it before. This bill will prevent your insurance company from dropping you when you get an expensive illness, even though you have paid premiums on time for years. This bill will prevent insurance companies from excluding people from coverage because of preexisting conditions. This bill will make insurance cheaper for everyone by creating insurance exchanges where individuals can get group rates.
Bottom line.
Well said Pox Eclipse. There is lots of misinformation out there. The insurance companies and the "For Profit" health care segment have spent lots of money buying Republicans and Tv ads. The cuts in medicare spending have to do with cutting medicare FRAUD. By the way, its ironic that one of the people producing a lot of the anti healthcare reform ads is the same guy who does the "High fructose corn sugar is just as good as real sugar ads" and the "Tanning beds are healty ads"
Quote from: Bob S. on March 21, 2010, 02:51:15 PM
This bill gives the united states goverment the right to choose which of their citizens have the right to live and which of them should die.
They will stop giving anyone over the age of 70 health care. As Hairy Reed stated they have to accept that they had their turn. And Obama said. Give them a pain pill and send them home.
It will save a lot on Social Security.
Bottom line.
If you want to word it
that way: Keeping yourself alive is YOUR job, not the governments. Noone is required to help you.
From what I've read just about everywhere else, they will only take away free healthcare from financially stable seniors.. and I support that 100%, even if it includes veterans. If a person has the money, make them pay.
As is obvious by the various points of view on this subject, it is as yet un-known exactly how the healthcare bill will effect the state of healthcare in this country. What is fairly certain however, is that the cost of this bill will balloon to epic proportions and add to the pressure leading towards total economic collapse. Remember.....while these fools have been telling us for years that the costs to support the Social Security program will lead to sky high taxes (for those who are still paying them) they have ADDED yet even more "entitlement" programs....the prescription drug program...and now the healthcare program. Our countries debt has risen and IS rising to the point that countries will think themselves fools to continue buying our debt. Out govmnt will need to refinance 2 trillion dollars in debt this fall....and it is quite likely they will find no takers. They are then quite likely to just print 2 trillion dollars to cover the gap. Does anyone have a clue what comes next?
Get your head out of the sand people...the people in Washington (of either party) are NOT your friend! At least you won't be able to say no-one warned you....
As always, Ken says it better:
Liberty Is Finite
By Ken Cuccinelli from the March 2010 issue
"There are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom
of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those
in power, than by violent and sudden usurpations..."
– James Madison, June 6, 1788
Speech to the Virginia Convention on Ratifying the Constitution
Although spoken more than two centuries ago, Mr. Madison's words to the Virginia Convention have special resonance today in light of the continuing movement by some to nationalize the nation's health care system. While those championing this radical change in our everyday lives may have the best of intentions, the costs of their proposals are not just financial. Rather, much of what has been proposed would eat away at the very liberty that this nation was founded to protect.
Under the guise of improving health care, supporters of health care centralization are proposing to redefine the relationship of citizens to the state. Historically, in the American social compact, government has served as the agent of the people, deriving its sovereignty from the consent of the governed.
With "reformed" health care, the federal government will insert itself into every aspect of a person's life. With the government involved from cradle to grave and at every step along the way, proponents of health care reform would turn the citizen into a mere ward of the state. With the citizen-child now reliant on the government-parent for all aspects of his well-being, the citizen has forever ceded his liberty to the wishes and whims of the federal government.
Regardless of how well intentioned the governmental effort, this enormous loss of liberty is antithetical to America's founding principles.
The limits on federal power in the Constitution and its first ten amendments were put there by our Founding Fathers not just to protect citizens from those who would take our liberties at the point of a gun, but also to prevent the gradual encroachments effected by those in power who claim to be serving the greater good.
The various versions of health care reform that Democrats in Congress have championed over the last year have all contained provisions that are inconsistent with the original understanding and plain text of the Constitution. From an individual mandate requiring citizens to buy "approved" insurance from a private company or face a tax, fine, or jail (literally a tax on simply being alive), to co-opting state governments to mandate the formation of insurance exchanges, to the corrupt Cornhusker Compromise by which we learned what the vote of one senator costs, the proposed legislation explodes the limits of federal power, guts the powers of the states as sovereign entities, and diminishes the fundamental role of citizens.
The entire endeavor is inconsistent with the notion of a limited federal government. Furthermore, the coercion of individual citizens and the co-opting of state legislatures violate the plain text of both the Ninth and Tenth Amendments.
Proponents of liberty must use all of the tools the Constitution provides to defend against this onslaught on our liberty. While the champions of health care centralization will tout their benevolent motives and complain about the inefficiencies and technicalities imposed by various constitutional provisions, citizens should remember that those inefficiencies and technicalities were placed there for a reason — they are truly the bulwarks of individual liberty. If we ignore them to allow for the perceived crisis of the moment, they and the freedoms they protect are lost forever.
In seeking to protect the liberties guaranteed by the Constitution, we are vigorously pursuing freedom for our citizens in the face of a government that, no matter how well intentioned, seeks to expand its power at citizens' expense.
While the nation's "economic pie" can be grown through good economic policies, the "liberty pie" is a zero-sum game — it doesn't grow or shrink — and there are only two slices: government power and citizens' liberty. If the current notions of centralized health care are enacted, government's raw power over citizens' lives will increase, and their liberty will be reduced by the same amount.
The bottom line is that fighting the further centralization of health care isn't just about money, it's a fight to preserve liberty, and it's a fight worth having.
For me, I will stand for liberty.
What this gargantuan (over 2000 pages) bill will do is steal 500 billion from Medicare (from the mouth of the President) and "spread the wealth around" (from the mouth of the President) to forty million folks who didn't have health INSURANCE the day before. Never mind that many millions of those folks are illegal aliens who come to America to work, and then send much of their earnings back to their native country. What is will also do is severely affect the efficacy of our health care system. It is not a mystery why Premiers from CANADA come to America to pay for their surgery. Simply put, we have the best doctors, the best teaching hospitals, and the best research facilities in the world. If this ridiculous power grab stands, then my prediction is that many fine doctors and researchers will find more lucrative ways to spend their time.
Anyone who believes that this bill will reduce our deficit is an absolute (expletive deleted) moron.
I believe that healthcare needed reform. This was not the bill to make it happen. It was pushed through using bought votes, catered to special interests, and stuffed full of pork and promises.
This bill will crush existing insurance companies. Your employer will probably find it cheaper to pay the fine than to include healthcare in your benefit package.
Our government will have control over how much a physician or practice may charge for any procedure. New England Journal of medicine predicts up to 40% of physicians will be leaving practice due to this bill. On top of that, everyone who wants access to healthcare now has it. Don't plan on needing access to a doctor or procedure any time soon once this gets rolling. The line will be long, unless you can afford the premium "boutique" healthcare that folks like Pelosi will have.
The best thing about this bill is that it has pissed off enough of the independents that it will be a long, long time before the liberals have the control that they now have.
Up next... immigration. If you are going to piss off all the independents, you had better plan on legalizing / importing millions of new voters who can be bought.
Quote from: NM_Shooter on March 21, 2010, 06:41:16 PM
The best thing about this bill is that it has pissed off enough of the independents that it will be a long, long time before the liberals have the control that they now have.
You think liberals are in control now?
[rofl2]
If the liberal wing of the Democratic party had their way (Kucinich, et al.), there would be single payer universal health care. They couldn't even get a public option in this bill, fercryinoutloud!
That speaks volumes about what has happened to the Republican Party. Their standard of conservative purity is now so strict, John McCain is labelled as a RINO. As they draw the circle tighter and tighter around the most right wing principles, the party will fracture into a circular firing squad, each aiming at the other as "not true conservatives".
The Democrats will reap the benefits of conservative disarray.
It means we are no longer free people.
I am glad to see a few supporters of this bill on this fourum. I myself am self employed as is my wife. We are some of the thousands without insurance. It isnt because we dont want it like alot of people would lead you to think, but for the cost we just can not afford it. This bill is not going to be perfect but atleast it is an attempt. The other night there was a senator on tv that said we were rushing into this (maybe so) his answer do another study and then discuss it some more. Talk talk talk mean time nothing gets done. How many insurance companies go broke? I would expect very few. If in my business I offered a product I could charge anything I wanted, raise the price anytime I wanted, and stop giving you the service anytime I was not making a huge profit, I would be rich. Insurance companies do this all of us everyday with no regulations. Will insurance companies be hurt by this I dought it but maybe it will atleast add a little competition. By the way I am a Repubilican and always have been.
No more about to pass it just did, hopefully it will benefit all of us.
I know it will benefit me. I have COBRA insurance that will run out in July. I am self employed, and have a history of cancer and bleeding ulcers. I cannot get individual health insurance at any price because of preexisting conditions. I don't want free health care; I just want a chance to buy it at a reasonable rate. This bill will make that possible.
Conservatives tried to make health care reform Obama's "Waterloo". Instead, it will be their own undoing. They put all their chips on red, and it came up black. Corporate donors who spent $100 million lobbying against this bill are going to start asking what they got for their money. This is not Obama's Waterloo, it is the GOP's. The conservative tsunami that crashed headlong against the bedrock of American values has broken into a million droplets, and is going to retreat back into the sea for a decade or more.
The people have spoken. The system works.
Want to bet?
If this was such a great bill, why did the democrats have to buy votes within their own party?
Because the Democratic party isn't comprised of Borg-like hive thinkers who all regurgitate the same talking points, and all vote NO! in cadence to the party boss's goose-step. There is legitimate difference of opinion, and politics still requires give and take. This is not a weakness.
We know how to make sausage. To their detriment, the Republicans have forgotten that recipe.
edited
For all you health care bill supporters, look, anything the Govt gets into/regulates, it F's up... Face it, you workers will gain NOTHING, you will just pay for bums, illegals and others in line for Govt cheese. This WILL cost you $$$
Sardonic,
Do you think they'll take away the free health care for all the members of congress who are also multi-millionaires? I don't...even though they should.
Whatever they say this is going to cost, double it and you'll be looking at a more accurate number. From what I've read, a small minority of patients consume a majority of the care and associated costs. I think it's something around 90% of the costs for Medicare and Medicaid go to 10% of the people covered. We're paying billions of dollars per year keeping extremely unhealthy people alive and these people take no responsibility for their conditions...obesity, heavy drinking and smoking, etc. When I worked at a hospital we'd see them come into the ER for a stubbed toe or a hangnail and demand a surgeon look at them. Some of the Medicaid people would be in the hospital three of four times a week for very minor issues. What most people remedy with some ointment and Band-Aid requires surgical staff at a hospital for them, and why not, it's not like they're paying for any of their care, nor do they have to answer for their decisions.
There is a lot wrong with this healthcare bill, and I can name you a few dozen things, but virtually every criticism leveld in this thread is factually wrong. There are way too many factually inaccuracies here to address them all but just a few;
1) Illegal immigrants are explicitly
excluded from receiving coverage in this bill.
2) There are no cuts to medicare recipients
3) The overwhelming majority of new coverage will be through
private insurance companies not gov't run insurance.
4) The AMA supports this healthcare bill. How could it possibly cause 40% of doctors to leave the profession?
5) 30+ million new customers for the health insurance industry, how could this possibly be bad for them - evidenced by the 40% increase
insurance company stocks just this year alone.
That's just a few. Not enough time to point them all out.
But this one is a real gem;
Quote from: NM_Shooter on March 21, 2010, 06:41:16 PM
On top of that, everyone who wants access to healthcare now has it.
What country do you live in?
Illegal immigrants don't need health insurance because they can just waltz into the local hospital, get the care they require, and then walk away without any intention of ever paying their bills.
This looks like just another method of shifting public money into private corporations, which is why the insurance companies spent millions lobbying against a single payer system. Their stocks are rising because they're steps away from getting an influx of billions in U.S. taxpayer money. Wait until the CEOs of insurance companies start getting their bonuses, bet they're going to do really well.
Here is the bottom line....
The commie/dems actually believe that they have a "right" to a service/product to be PAID FOR by someone else.
what about food, food stamps already exist. I guess as long as someone is hungry then they have a "right" to my garden produce??
I may have an extra bedroom, do they have a "right" to move in?? if not, why not??
the mandate will be declared unconstitutional
the only constitutional way to do it is to raise taxes then give socialized medicine like europe/canada. this way is unconstitutional, but they could not pass that.
do you have a "right" to something free because you need it? thats the question.
Tom
Quote from: bmancanfly on March 22, 2010, 08:44:21 AM
But this one is a real gem;
Quote from: NM_Shooter on March 21, 2010, 06:41:16 PM
On top of that, everyone who wants access to healthcare now has it.
What country do you live in?
I kind of doubt you read the entire bill. But it passed so it really doesn't matter what you think it says.
What Country? Day before yesterday, USA....I'm not sure what Obama is calling the new one.
BM:
1) Illegal immigrants brought into the "legal" voting base is next on the agenda.
2) I have not checked into medicare...how are those social security cost of living adjustments doing?
3) Ask the auto execs who took the bailout (especially the ones who got canned) how well the gov't is keeping out of managing their business.
4) The AMA sells insurance, and is only a small portion of physicians. http://www.themedicusfirm.com/pages/medicus-media-survey-reveals-impact-health-reform did the survey. Not NEJM as I had previously stated. The source of the survey does not diminish the significance.
5) Let's see... the gov't will force insurance companies to take on high risk / high requirement patients. Their profit margin will plummet, and in order for them to stay in business they will need to take a gov't bailout which puts them under gov't control. The 30 million people who will be coming into those companies mostly have no means to pay for their coverage.
I should have said "comprehensive" health care. Everyone in the US already has access to free care in the ERs for their sniffles.
Every person I've heard in favor of the health care bill expects that it will personally help them. I've yet to meet a perfectly healthy, employed and insured person who likes it. Proponents are "in it for themselves" with no regard to the damage that it will do to America.
Quote from: NM_Shooter on March 22, 2010, 09:24:28 AM
BM:
Every person I've heard in favor of the health care bill expects that it will personally help them. I've yet to meet a perfectly healthy, employed and insured person who likes it. Proponents are "in it for themselves" with no regard to the damage that it will do to America.
That's what got Obama elected in the first place...."Obama's gonna give us something"...well, he did and it didn't include Valsoline.
Don't forget those who are healthy enough/willing to take a risk that they CHOOSE not to buy insurance. They are now REQUIRED to purchase insurance. If that isn't a forced tax increase, I don't know what is.
Also don't forget that much of the savings is "hidden" in increased taxes on medical device makers and insurance companies. I'm sure they'll just eat that...
We put a 2 1/2% tax on all things medical here in Minnesota to pay for the health care pool...Now it's a forgotten tax.
Quote from: fishing_guy on March 22, 2010, 09:41:45 AM
Don't forget those who are healthy enough/willing to take a risk that they CHOOSE not to buy insurance. They are now REQUIRED to purchase insurance. If that isn't a forced tax increase, I don't know what is.
You mean the people who choose to not have insurance and then get sick and show up at the emergency room and get health care for free? It's estimated that every American, who has healthcare, pays an additional $1000 annually on their health insurance premium to cover the uninsured. Why should the rest of us have to pay for these "rugged individualist" deadbeats? If they don't get sick it's just fine, if they do get sick, we all have to pay
for them. Their just like the bankers, "heads I win tales you lose"
Quote from: Txcowrancher on March 22, 2010, 09:16:13 AM
do you have a "right" to something free because you need it? thats the question.
Are you under the mistaken impression that this bill provides free health care to anyone who wants it?
Quote from: NM_Shooter on March 22, 2010, 09:24:28 AM
BM:
Every person I've heard in favor of the health care bill expects that it will personally help them. I've yet to meet a perfectly healthy, employed and insured person who likes it. Proponents are "in it for themselves" with no regard to the damage that it will do to America.
Well what's the point to healthcare coverage that only covers the healthy? ;D Isn't that the point here? That the insurance companies have been canceling , or refusing to cover, people who are sick.
You could, in a heartbeat, become one of those people without insurance and a preexisting condition - then what would you do? I think you would be singing a different tune then.
I luckily have very good insurance coverage. I am neither liberal or conservative. Neither Democrat or Rebublican, but listening to this national debate it seems that too many people are wedded to a political ideology (on both sides) rather than being opening to reasonable solutions to the problem.
Best of health to you all! d*
The real show is starting...Go Get em Ken! c*
UPDATE 1-Virginia to sue U.S. over healthcare reform
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN2219276420100322
Quote from: bmancanfly on March 22, 2010, 09:56:25 AM
Quote from: fishing_guy on March 22, 2010, 09:41:45 AM
Don't forget those who are healthy enough/willing to take a risk that they CHOOSE not to buy insurance. They are now REQUIRED to purchase insurance. If that isn't a forced tax increase, I don't know what is.
You mean the people who choose to not have insurance and then get sick and show up at the emergency room and get health care for free? It's estimated that every American, who has healthcare, pays an additional $1000 annually on their health insurance premium to cover the uninsured. Why should the rest of us have to pay for these "rugged individualist" deadbeats? If they don't get sick it's just fine, if they do get sick, we all have to pay for them. Their just like the bankers, "heads I win tales you lose"
People like me that WHEN we go to the doctor, it's like starting over again. I've been to the doctor a total of 5 times since I've turned 18. I've had one operation(shoulder) and 2 rounds of physical therapy. Never been to the ER in my life.....
I'ld be much better off just paying cash for those visits (and even the operation).
Quote from: Pox Eclipse on March 22, 2010, 09:58:35 AM
Are you under the mistaken impression that this bill provides free health care to anyone who wants it?
Thank you Pox, I could not have said it any better. This is not about healthcare, everyone in this country has healthcare available to them. If you get hurt or sick you can go to the emergency room now. They will treat you. This is not about healthcare, it is about health insurance. Now anyone can purchase heath insurance, in fact not only can you, it would be mandatory.
I dont know what the bill says, it was 2300 pages and from what I can gather it ballooned up to 4000 pages at the end. I doubt anyone anywhere knows exactly what all it has in it just yet and I dont see the need to argue about the details with the people here on this forum about it. Wile we may disagree on the approach here, my argument is not with the people who will benefit from this bill and their support of it. It's expected that those who will directly benefit from the subsidy will support it and those that will directly lose from the subsidy will oppose it.
Those who will sit at the top and collect the skim while letting the others fight amongst themselves are the problem.
Yes Pox eclipse
the bill will add some 15 million people to medicaid, as well as provide taxpayer money to millions of others to help pay for their insurance. half of the country pays no income tax now and the other half wants more freebies, this has to stop.
we must reconsider what is a "right"
is free food a "right" if I am hungry?
is free water a "right" if I cant pay my water bill?
is free medical care a "right" if I have no money?
food seems more basic than a doctor
does a person have a "right" to anything that must be taken from another person????
Tom
Quote from: muldoon on March 22, 2010, 10:26:10 AM
Quote from: Pox Eclipse on March 22, 2010, 09:58:35 AM
Are you under the mistaken impression that this bill provides free health care to anyone who wants it?
It's expected that those who will directly benefit from the subsidy will support it and those that will directly lose from the subsidy will oppose it.
Those who will sit at the top and collect the skim while letting the others fight amongst themselves are the problem.
That's not quite true Muldoon.
Despite the fact that NO ONE really understands it, on the surface, I'd be one that should directly benefit. The few times I have gone to the Doctor, I gave a false name and information. That way my insurance company wouldn't know I was diabetic or had heart problems. It also means I can't get treatment or prescriptions.
I have major med only. I also have medical directives notarized and in my wallet to not even bother putting the plug in and if they do, pull it. A long stay in the hospital will bankrupt the surviving spouse quickly.
The reason? If my wife becomes sick, I want insurance to cover it and they won't if they cancel us because of me.
Why do I oppose it?
The reasons can go on for hours, but the biggest can be explained with the seat belt laws.
I always wore a seat belt....until they passed a law saying I had to. I haven't worn one since.
The Government isn't going to dictate how I live my life!
peter,
Suicide is against the law. ;)
Quote from: pagancelt on March 22, 2010, 11:36:44 AM
peter,
Suicide is against the law. ;)
There's a lot to be said about that...but
Suicide is suddenly taking your life. Not going on your own terms, naturally.
When you're born, the only certain thing you have is that you're going to die. What you do in between those two dates is what separates the sheep from the wolves.
I've spent too much time sitting in hospital rooms, watching someone I love who is more dead than alive, just marking time until their heart stops.
It's a choice everyone has to make on their own but no one named OBAMA's going to make it for me.
Most of the people I've met who attempted suicide took their time, thought it all out, and planned the taking of their lives. There was nothing sudden about it, just that nobody saw it coming.
How is going out naturally being on your own terms? This is an honest question and I want to know what you're thinking is here.
I've seen people go out with cancer and I agree with you about watching them waste away in a hospital just waiting to die.
I think you missed my point. You said you stopped using a seatbelt because a law was passed mandating you use your seatbelt, so you stopped using it as a silent protest against the government dictating how you live your life. I pointed out that suicide is illegal, yet you haven't killed yourself. It was a little joke about you picking which laws you'd obey and which ones you'd break.
I see no wisdom in refusing to use a seatbelt, a device that's proven to save lives, simply because you don't like the government mandating its use by law. You can disagree with a law but still "obey" it simply because it makes sense, like wearing a seatbelt. Disagreeing with a law is fine, but putting yourself at risk in some protest is foolish.
Quote from: pagancelt on March 22, 2010, 12:18:12 PM
I think you missed my point. You said you stopped using a seatbelt because a law was passed mandating you use your seatbelt, so you stopped using it as a silent protest against the government dictating how you live your life. I pointed out that suicide is illegal, yet you haven't killed yourself. It was a little joke about you picking which laws you'd obey and which ones you'd break.
I see no wisdom in refusing to use a seatbelt, a device that's proven to save lives, simply because you don't like the government mandating its use by law. You can disagree with a law but still "obey" it simply because it makes sense, like wearing a seatbelt. Disagreeing with a law is fine, but putting yourself at risk in some protest is foolish.
There are a lot of things that are inherently unsafe. I climb, I kayak, I hunt and I fish. All have their own dangers. I suppose you could decide to stay inside all the time and live a little longer. Sunlight causes cancer you know.
Wisdom has very little to do with some of my decisions. Yes, a sealtbelt could save my life....but no I won't be told to wear one.
I do wear a vest when Kayaking and canoeing. No one's telling me I have to wear it, just that I have to have one on board.
I don't wear blaze orange when hunting.
I do use a static line when possible, when climbing.
I really don't expect you to understand it either. Some people will and some won't.
Just like some people hail the health care plan as the second coming and some of us see it as a way to keep us on a leash.
A little story that again, some will understand and others won't. My first year in military school was when I was 11 years old.
There was a fellow named Fitzgerald who was 17 and a big fat slob. He bullied all the younger Cadets constantly and if you said anything about it, he'd beat them up. I was told to just keep quiet and he's leave you alone. One day he decided he wanted me to shine his shoes. That was a favorite task he had the Cadets do. I tossed them out in the courtyard and he came storming in the Barracks. Everyone was telling me to just shine the shoes and he'd leave me alone. One Cadet offered to do it for me...just so he'd leave me alone.
Knowing full well I was going to get my butt kicked, I hit him square in the head with a field hockey stick and got my butt kicked....But you know what, after that, he left me alone.
It's all in how you choose to live!
Quote from: bmancanfly on March 22, 2010, 10:08:08 AM
Well what's the point to healthcare coverage that only covers the healthy? ;D Isn't that the point here? That the insurance companies have been canceling , or refusing to cover, people who are sick.
Is that a serious question? You understand how insurance works...right? They make money betting that a person won't need coverage. If it were any way else, why buy insurance unless you were sick? What company would wait until a person is sick to get $400 a month when that person needs a $60k operation?
They need to operate on the free market, with little gov't influence. You either buy their services, or you don't. Mandating who they must accept and what price they can charge is none of the damn business of anyone outside of their office.... especially the feds.
I've said it before... I have great insurance and yet crappy health care. The problem is NOT insurance. This health bill will not fix health care. It is specifically designed to create dependency, and to expand the power of the federal gov't. A very, very bad thing.
Quote from: NM_Shooter on March 22, 2010, 12:56:58 PM
Quote from: bmancanfly on March 22, 2010, 10:08:08 AM
Well what's the point to healthcare coverage that only covers the healthy? ;D Isn't that the point here? That the insurance companies have been canceling , or refusing to cover, people who are sick.
Is that a serious question? You understand how insurance works...right? They make money betting that a person won't need coverage. If it were any way else, why buy insurance unless you were sick? What company would wait until a person is sick to get $400 a month when that person needs a $60k operation?
They need to operate on the free market, with little gov't influence. You either buy their services, or you don't. Mandating who they must accept and what price they can charge is none of the damn business of anyone outside of their office.... especially the feds.
I've said it before... I have great insurance and yet crappy health care. The problem is NOT insurance. This health bill will not fix health care. It is specifically designed to create dependency, and to expand the power of the federal gov't. A very, very bad thing.
There's another side that no one's said anything about. There is a very real probability that this will make insurance rates go up for those of us that have it. If that happens and it goes up by any real degree, I won't be able to keep mine. I never get tax refunds so the IRS can go holler fish. I ain't paying a fine.
That's a great plan the Dem's came up with.
Quote from: peternap on March 22, 2010, 01:15:34 PM
There is a very real probability that this will make insurance rates go up for those of us that have it.
Absolutely. Premiums either have to go up, or the insurance companies will go bankrupt. And since the gov't is planning on regulating premium costs, that means we are all going to be out of luck with private insurance companies. We'll all end up in the single payer system, just as initially wanted by the socialists.
Its times like this I'm happy thePUBLIC library already exist.
How many people who are complaining about this reform is drawing social security?
How many people who are complaining about this reform have children that go to Public schools?
How many people who are complaining about this reform drive on highways?
these are things people were against but enjoy the benifit of now.
instead of listening to glen beck, or what limbaugh told you to believe, why not investigate the facts and form an educated opinion.
Quote from: astidham on March 22, 2010, 01:26:46 PM
Its times like this I'm happy thePUBLIC library already exist.
How many people who are complaining about this reform is drawing social security?
How many people who are complaining about this reform have children that go to Public schools?
How many people who are complaining about this reform drive on highways?
these are things people were against but enjoy the benifit of now.
instead of listening to glen beck, or what limbaugh told you to believe, why not investigate the facts and form an educated opinion.
I'm really enjoying some of these arguments. I can't say about everyone but...
I don't have a Library Card.
I don't get Social Security and never will.
My kids didn't go to Public Schools
I do drive on the Highways and wish they didn't exist. Especially Interstates.
I know Glen Beck personally and I don't think he even takes himself literally and I think Limbaugh is a fat blowhard.
And
I still think Health Care sucks and have read it. If you can make an educated opinion out of that useless congratulation of nonsense, you need to run for King yourself.
No social security for me. Probably be BANKRUPT by the time I need it due to gov't mismanagement. A fine example of me paying thousands of dollars every year so that somebody else can strip it out.
All those other things, along with the armed forces, provide benefit to all Americans.
Forcing an American to pay for healthcare entirely used by another individual is purely socialist, and not part of what made America great.
Do you really think anything more than a minority of people were against public schools?
(educated opinion? rofl)
Even if you don't use the roads or interstates, many of the goods and services we consume only exist in our markets because of them.
Peternap, what are scupturings?
NM_Shooter,
I agree, premiums must go up, or the government will need to subsidize more heavily, especially once insurance companies are forced to accept the unhealthiest people out there. The reason insurance companies refuse them is because they cost more than they bring in, and these people tend to have chronic, very expensive, health problems. I personally know of an individual whose medical costs are $4,800 per month. He's never worked, never will, and he's totally dependant on the public. What insurance company in the universe would accept him?
Quote from: astidham on March 22, 2010, 01:45:17 PM
Peternap, what are scupturings?
You need to ask Del Gewe..(with an E) he and Jeremiah Johnson (whose real name was John) came up with that.
NM_shooter.
Your post are so full of inaccuracies and twisted logic that it would take too long to rebute them all. You have taken an ideological stance to every point related to healthcare even when the facts and logic are against you. You obviously have an anti-gov't obsession that causes you to view eveything through that prism. And that's your right. But it impairs your ability to see that sometimes gov't action can be useful if used in a limited way. You also fail to see that the power of corporations is as great a threat to our freedom as is gov't overreaching. How else can the abuse of power by corporations be constrained, if not by the people through their gov't? It's fine to be for the free market when the playing field is fair. But that is not what exists today. And the free market in this case hasn't, and can't fix it.
We currently have a completely free market now - and what a mess. Health insurance companies are even free of anti-trust laws, unlike almost all other industries. It is the lack of regulation, and the lack of real competition due to the failure of the free market that got us in to the mess we are in now.
If the free market, as it relates to healthcare, works so well, why are insurance costs here double what they are in the rest of the world? Overseas, markets are much more regulated or insurance is provided through a publicly financed system. And they have the same or better outcomes, at a fraction of the cost. You can't tell me that our healthcare is twice as good as the rest of the world.
Conservatives love when the gov't does something they like. The minute it does something they don't like, they call it socialism.
ObamaCare To Be Enforced
By IRS 'Bounty Hunters'
http://www.rense.com/general90/ohh.htm
There are too many problems in the USA for this greedy attitude to go on any longer. If you make a decent amount of money, you should be forced to help or given the boot. Keep in mind that this isn't a new idea.. our taxes were going to the poor way before this point.
You don't want 5% of your 40K salary going to help people who need it? Why? Apparently the sincerely needy people don't deserve our help because there are a few slackers out there.
I'll be darned. All you Liberals are right. Obama's the man c*
http://www.breitbart.tv/20-promises-for-2500-all-americans-now-await-lower-premiums-promised-by-obama/
It's the attitude of some that kill it for all. My wife has taught swimming lessons in our school district for 30+ years. This week, one of the parents came to sign up their grandchild. She mentioned that they are free/reduced lunch(they catch a break on tuition).
My wife made the comment to me that she remembered the grandma's kids were ALSO on free/reduced lunch.
So many of these things have become generational. The attitude of a free lunch is passed down the family lines. I have a son in law who was the first in his family in 3 generations to complete HIGH SCHOOL, let alone COLLEGE. I think if my daughter told him that she would marry him, but not move in with him, forced him to get a job.
And yes, plenty of us ARE anti-government, at least the way things stand now. There are things the government is SUPPOSED to provide, and then there are a lot of things they think they SHOULD provide. The difference is where many of us are upset.
Sorry BM, you're out of your area of expertise. Facts and logic? Produce proof.
The logic that I supplied is pretty straightforward. It appears to me you have no ability to understand it. You're emotionally based, I'm logically based.
Provide one clear example of where my logic is flawed. I'll pay attention. You were the one who had an issue understanding how insurance companies worked for profit.
I'm only anti-BIG-government. I love the little, conservative ones. Liberals also tend to react emotionally, and put words in other person's mouths when they are caught in a corner and can't answer simple questions. Stick to what I am saying, not what you think I am saying.
Here's a challenge for you...
Tell you what. I'll pay you $1000 a month for healthcare. But I'll only buy it from you right before I need that operation, and I'll cancel as soon as I am better. I'm going to have to ask you to either accept or acknowledge that your beliefs are hypocritical. Oh... and I am going to need you to tell your neighbors that they have to pay for 90% of my premiums.
I'm guessing you're not going to reply to that challenge. Right?
Quote from: Pox Eclipse on March 21, 2010, 10:34:57 PM
I know it will benefit me. I have COBRA insurance that will run out in July. I am self employed, and have a history of cancer and bleeding ulcers. I cannot get individual health insurance at any price because of preexisting conditions. I don't want free health care; I just want a chance to buy it at a reasonable rate. This bill will make that possible.
I fully understand that the current system is broken for many people. I have no qualms with trying to fix that. But this bill is a tax, it's is not even about healthcare, it is about health insurance.
The provision noted above for pre-existing conditions, is slated to kick in for 2014. Thats 4 more years pox, but thats ok as you get to start paying premiums now.
Personally I cant wait for the 4 years to be up for different reasons. Currently I pay about 10k a year for insurance for my family. The penalty for not having insurance under the new plan is 2% agi or about 2,000. Once the "no prior conditions" clause kicks in I can fully elect to just ditch health insurance al together and go on a pay as I go basis. The only reason to carry insurance is for those massive disasters that you don't see coming. Getting the flu or broekn arms are chump change to just pay for the visit and the meds, but its the looming threat of cancers and leukimias and heart diseaese that keeps me spending that money every month. Soon enough I will just drop the 10-12k insurance, pay the 2k fine and if I or anyone in my family does get those dibilitating diseases, we'll just get insurance then -- after all, no pre-existing conditions can bar me. Talk about unintended consequences.
Thank Big-O. you the man.
Someone way back said "Suicide is against the law"....well not here next to the Golden Gate! Get with it, it's a damn sport! Same with high school kids kissing moving trains here! Want to see Government entitlement programs fully taken advantage of/ Come to the oakland ca. social security or county buildings...if you speak english you will be one of the few! These govt. dependants WORK the system, rubber stamped by like minded minorities, if you are the wrong minority, your application gets "lost" All the while these societal leeches with a palm up to the Government are chatting on their $500 iphone and wearing the latest $175 air jordans! This is a FACT. The illegals here have more rights than citizens. They ABUSE the system...and the slacker welfare crap people DEMAND your tax dollars that go directly to DRUGS! KNOW IT.
Quote from: muldoon on March 22, 2010, 05:25:50 PM
The provision noted above for pre-existing conditions, is slated to kick in for 2014. Thats 4 more years pox, but thats ok as you get to start paying premiums now.
I already pay premiums, so no loss there. And if HCR was not passed, how long would I wait for relief from exclusion because of pre-existing conditions?
If not now, when? If not us, who?
Virginia Files to keep Health Care OUT! ;D
http://news.oldva.org/?p=13591
Don't be causing a stink in Old Virginia
(http://www.photos.oldva.org/albums/userpics/stink%7E0.jpg)
Quote from: Pox Eclipse on March 24, 2010, 06:13:09 AM
Quote from: muldoon on March 22, 2010, 05:25:50 PM
The provision noted above for pre-existing conditions, is slated to kick in for 2014. Thats 4 more years pox, but thats ok as you get to start paying premiums now.
I already pay premiums, so no loss there. And if HCR was not passed, how long would I wait for relief from exclusion because of pre-existing conditions?
If not now, when? If not us, who?
Yes, you are paying premiums now...but...
Do your premiums that you are paying now include all the hidden taxes that are included in the new law? Do you think the insurance companies, drug makers, medical device makers and hospitals are just going to eat their increased taxes? I'm sure those WILL be included in their next round of premiums.
How about when the insurance companies start insuring those that they haven't before? When their payouts for services skyrocket, do you think they are going to eat the increased costs? Nope, you'll get to pay those increased costs also in your premiums.
When I first got cable, the bill was $20 /month, including all applicable taxes and fees. My cable now includes at least $20/month in fees alone...before it even begins to provide me with a service.
If you thought your premiums were expensive now, hold onto your wallet...
Premiums are already going up 40% per year in some places. So how are you going to determine that reform was the cause of any new increases?
d*
Keep your head in the sand...this law isn't going to make it any better for healthy Americans.
Our state (Minnesota) instituted a 2.5% tax on all things medical to pay for Minncare, their version of the Federal program. It is picked up by all those who use healthcare, and by default the insurance companies. You don't think that was passed on as increased premiums by all?
BTW, the state is salivating over the new federal program. It will take over those on Minncare and the state gets to keep the 2.5% tax for the general fund...It isn't going away just because the program will be.
In a strange quirk of fate, the health care bill actually cost (or has the potential to cost) me insurance coverage.
I worked at a job for 18 years. Just long enough to be vested in their pension plan. One part of it was money...Not a lot, but enough to pay some bills when I get of age. The second...company sponsored medical insurance. The second part was the part I will need most in old age.
I was informed, that because of the new healthcare laws, the company I used to work for is dropping retirement medical all together.
Awesome!
I'm always happy to donate to the cause of the slackers less fortunate.
This is the part that sucks. You've worked steady at a job for a long period of time. Due to the needs of those who for whatever reason (bad luck, laziness, stupidity, whatever) you are now not only going to have to pay to fund some/all of their healthcare, but you are losing benefits as well. Unfortunately, there are more have-nots than haves, and the have nots have figured out that they can vote their way into your pocket.
It's a lot easier for them to do that than to actually be productive and earn their own keep.
We can start to repeal this once the liberals are removed from office, but unfortunately there will be a significant amount of irreversible damage before we can do so.
I will be celebrating hard the day pelosi is removed. Will probably throw a party.
I'm sorry you got caught in the crap.