I'd heard about this during the election, in reference to some obscure Indonesian law pertaining to how his mother would have lost US citizenship. yadda-yadda, and I've seen photos of misspelled signs held up at tea party rallies claiming OB is Kenyan, but I just kinda wrote it all off as wishful thinking on the part of Obama opponents.
Assumed it was a flash in the pan, grasping at straws, maybe tinged with a little racism, and pretty much done with.
Last night I watched a John McCain for US Senate campaign commercial representing foe J. D. Hayworth as a "Birther".
http://www.youtube.com/user/JohnMcCaindotcom#p/a/u/0/28qf6QOfpC0 (http://www.youtube.com/user/JohnMcCaindotcom#p/a/u/0/28qf6QOfpC0)
A quick web search showed that Snopes.com and the St. Petersburg Times' PolitiFact.com have debunked this. The folks at FactCheck.org actually inspected a valid Obama birth certificate with the raised seal and the stamp on the back, posted numerous photos of it online, and ran down a birth announcement in the Honolulu Advertiser.
I've seen references to it here in the forum, but really thought they were made tongue-in-cheek.
People are still goin' at this? Folks really think that Obama isn't an American? I mean real people, not mountebanks like Orly Taitz and Philip Berg, who are obviously in it for the fame and fortune?
Really?
Raindog, you've opened a can of worms. ;D
Abstracted certification of live birth..
Orly Tavitz also says that even if he was born in the U.S., he can not legally be president because his father was not a U.S. citizen. You can scroll through many of my past posts for most of the prevailing legal arguments. If you look almost no person that argues this is a practicing or reputable lawyer, because they actually respect the fact that they could get disbarred for argue ridiculous points that don't have a basis in the law. Most of the people arguing these points are doing it are taking advantage of what people want to believe for profit. They are making a tidy sum too. Many of the people that forward these arguments have a fundamental misunderstanding of the American legal system.
The fundamental misunderstanding of the American legal system is that it is in any way legal. ;)
Quote from: Squirl on February 25, 2010, 01:56:09 PM
Orly Tavitz also says that even if he was born in the U.S., he can not legally be president because his father was not a U.S. citizen. You can scroll through many of my past posts for most of the prevailing legal arguments. If you look almost no person that argues this is a practicing or reputable lawyer, because they actually respect the fact that they could get disbarred for argue ridiculous points that don't have a basis in the law. Most of the people arguing these points are doing it are taking advantage of what people want to believe for profit. They are making a tidy sum too. Many of the people that forward these arguments have a fundamental misunderstanding of the American legal system.
Okay, gotcha.
I read this:
"But in a "movement" like this, the real major players are the hundreds of hapless morons who believe the conspiracy, not necessarily the ones trying to sell it to them."
http://gawker.com/5320465/the-birthers-who-are-they-and-what-do-they-want (http://gawker.com/5320465/the-birthers-who-are-they-and-what-do-they-want)
Would you guess "
hundreds" is about right? That's not very many, really. Pretty much lines up with what I'd thought, that it wasn't a serious movement insofar as the number of people subscribing to the theory goes.
Check the font on that certificate. ;D
Whoa, whoa, whoa...
"58% of Republicans either believed that Obama was not born in the US (28%) or were not sure (30%), with 42% believing that he was."
"A Public Policy Polling survey carried out in August 2009 found that only 32% of Republicans in Virginia thought that Obama was born in the US. 41% thought he was foreign-born and the remaining 27% were unsure."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama_citizenship_conspiracy_theories#Claims_that_Obama_was_not_born_in_Hawaii (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama_citizenship_conspiracy_theories#Claims_that_Obama_was_not_born_in_Hawaii)
What?
I did quite a bit of reading on this subject and came to the final conclusion that I just didn't even really care either way. I think that he was born to a US citizen mother and raised mostly in America; but even if not and he broke some laws to get where he is, so what? They are breaking laws every single day. If getting angry or indignant about throwing away the constitution or not following laws actually mattered in this country we wouldn't be where we are now.
Aside from that, raindog - are you so tired of picking a fight with everyone else's responses in other threads that now you just start new threads to argue with people about?
I don't think this issue matters one way or the other as there is no dispute about him having a mother who was a US citizen at the time of his birth. That conveys citizenship to any offspring born anywhere in the universe at present. Yes, the rules regarding that have morphed this way and that in the details, over the years. However, if a foreigner can give birth to a child on our soil and that child is granted full rights of US citizenship then surely any child of a US citizen parent can be counted as a US citizen no matter where the birth took place.
I don't give give a rats a$$ about this subject anymore.
From what Squirl and MountainDon have posted, I take it this subject has been beaten to death at some point before my time. Okay, that's fine.
muldoon, this section of the forum is "Off Topic - Ideas, politics, humor, inspiration". More than a few of us here have used these discussions of controversial issues in a productive manner to exercise our ability to back up what we blurt out. We've got a pretty good track record of keeping to the issue at hand in mature manner thus far.
That said, anyone expecting universal vapid agreement on contentious subjects such as politics should probably abstain from discussion. Eventually, though, wherever these discussions take place, there's always someone who gets all butt-hurt over it and lashes out with some purely personal attack.
Nothin' I can do about that. Not my problem.
Actually further information makes it look like his grandfather is really his dad and his mother may be unknown as his "mother" (sister, Stanley Anne Dunham") showed no signs of pregnancy near the time he was supposedly born, and his "mother" (half sister) was just enlisted to cover her fathers missteps. There is more. Obama wrote a poem about seeing himself in his pops (grandpa) and they both have the same "dog chew toy" ears.
Sorry I have no backup info in this and am just going from memory of the article I read.
With the hundreds of thousands of dollars he has spent on lawyers to keep the truth from coming out it is no wonder there are people making educated guesses.
It is my understanding that Hawaii issues the "Certificate of Live Birth" to others than those born there. I have kind of dropped the pursuit of this topic as no one seems to care if we have a legally elected president or a Kenyan president. The elite will put who they want in there and order the SCOTUS to cover their trail anyway.
The supreme court does not feel it is the right of any of the people of the US to see to it that the Constitution is followed because it is their desire and the desire of the elite to do a way with the Constitution. According to them there are no people, lawyers or anyone else with the authority to question the legality of the White House resident. At least they are impartial. They continue to do it for both parties.
Glenn,
Is this the article?
http://2164th.blogspot.com/2010/02/if-obamas-real-father-was-his.html
I think it is the same article although I read it at a different source. I don't remember that particular blog.
Interesting isn't it, and seems pretty logical as well as it being as hard to prove wrong as the possibility that he was born in Kenya. If only he would come clean, he could put an end to the questions, but likely that would end his stint in office.
Why else would he pay all of the lawyers to prevent discovery, and why would it be necessary for the SCOTUS to block all attempts at trial for the truth.
Note that Hillary and he were working on making it legal for non-citizens to be president a few years before he got into office, however they were not successful with that. They route they finally chose was to hide, remove and block the facts through a small army of lawyers and the SCOTUS.
There are old references and pictures of Obama and the Clintons hanging out together. The miracle of Obama making it to president and Hillary getting her office is not so such a miracle, as it was preordained. They planned it all along and the public was of course duped into believing they had a fair election.
2 choice limit --- one a sleeping old man and a soccer mom, or the other a person that reads well from a teleprompter and will carry out the plans of the NWO as directed. Funny how the non-war party has escalated the war in Pakistan as was predicted they would before elected.... Gitmo is not closed ... we are not out of Iraq.... we are still threatening Iran ....and on and on and on. Change...yes - I have about $2.73 worth in my pocket.... [waiting]
They do look alike.
The one thing that always stood out for me was the "Race" thing. In the early 60's "African" was not used. Something else was.
Hey Glenn, I sure could use that $2.73, I really need a coke. ;D
Quote from: StinkerBell on February 26, 2010, 10:36:06 AM
The one thing that always stood out for me was the "Race" thing. In the early 60's "African" was not used. Something else was.
Yes, true, and affairs with servants would have been quite possible and possibly likely.
pc, drop by and I'll buy you one... :)
*Yes, true, and affairs with servants would have been quite possible and possibly likely*
Huh?
I was speaking of the possibility that Obama's grandfather was really his father and may have had an African maid or girlfriend as put forward by the evidence in the blog, therefore it may have been his mother that was black rather than his father and Stanley Anne was his sister rather than his mother.
Strom Thurmond had an illegitimate daughter with a black servant.
Glenn,
The craving would probably pass by the time I got there.
I see them saying on that abstract his Race as African.....Kinda reminds me of The Killian documents.
"can of worms" indeed!
If we could bottle this thread up and market it as a legal high, we'd make millions.
Heck, I'm havin' a psychedelic experience just skimming it.
heh
Stinkerbell,
They all play from the same deck of cards, it just depends on whose dealing. Honestly I'm surprised people haven't claimed Obama was a member of the Black Panthers.
I am not sure if I am not reading correctly today or I am just missing something.
Myabe its just me. I can't tell if anyone is agreeing with me or not. Or if I am understood about the issue I am addressing.
We are being non-committal, evasive and politically correct, I think, Stink.
Please feel free to elaborate.
Raindog, You just want to cause trouble... heh
Invite is still open anyway, pc.
My point is the term african was not used on birth certificates in the 60's. Especially the early 60's. The term Negro or maybe black would have been used. The word African or African American is truly a thing from the 80's and documents such as birth certifcates didnt change to reflect the culture's verbage change until the last 20 years.
To me its like providing a document from the 70's swearing that its an original but the font and the printer they used is from the 90's. People tend to forget such things when they try to pass off fake stuff.
Stinkerbell,
So that was why you mentioned the Killian documents which had a superscripted "th" which was not commonly used in the early seventies.
I mention the Killain documents because the fact the fonts where that from a computer and not a typewriter as documents would have been from the 70's.
A very good point, Stinky.
All good points.
You might here the excuse that Obama's father was Arican.....The question is about RACE not nationality. Remember this is 1961. They did not list parents nationality, they just wanted Race.
Quote from: StinkerBell on February 26, 2010, 12:44:20 PM
You might here the excuse that Obama's father was Arican.....The question is about RACE not nationality. Remember this is 1961. They did not list parents nationality, they just wanted Race.
Anyone that would argue that "African" was the guy's nationality needs a whack upside the head. 8)
Since when is "African" a Race? Just to show you how bad this is, my 67 year old mother even thinks he's a fraud. She came to this on her own without me saying a word. She actualy liked him when he was first elected.
Race has nothing to do with him being a fraud, that comes from lying to get elected.
Quote from: ScottA on February 26, 2010, 02:04:09 PM
Since when is "African" a Race? Just to show you how bad this is, my 67 year old mother even thinks he's a fraud. She came to this on her own without me saying a word. She actualy liked him when he was first elected.
I guess in the same way that "African American" is a race. In other words, it isn't really, but it's how people self-identify.
From the 2000 Census under "Race":
"
Black or African American. A person having origins in any of the Black racial groups of Africa. It includes people who indicate their race as 'Black, African Am., or Negro,' or provide written entries such as African American, Afro American, Kenyan, Nigerian, or Haitian."
So he was, like, an African American, 'cept he wasn't an American. See?
Quote from: pagancelt on February 26, 2010, 02:14:20 PM
Race has nothing to do with him being a fraud, that comes from lying to get elected.
Lying to get elected? I'm shocked,
shocked I tell you! :D
Also, consider that the abstract form therefore someone had to enter bits and pieces from an orginal birth certificate or a form reporting a birth (Which does not mean a child is born in the US) a US parent can register their child's birth.
So although there is a state stamp and a raised seal consider on that abstracted at the bottom of the form itself it was revised in 2001. So it is not like it is a copy from an original birth certificate.
And meanwhile, back at the Arizona Senate primary race:
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0210/33524.html (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0210/33524.html)
McCain must be doin' the Happy Dance right about now.
The reality is that no one on either side would ever let it be known if he was not born on US soil.
It would put this country in chaos, or at least that would be the rationalization of why it would never come to light if it is true.
Now the more cynical side of me says it will come to light after his presidency, and because of the chaos a new Constitutional Amendment would have to come into play to make sure his work is not undone and therefoe open the door for future non US soil born Americans can be president or better yet we lose our country to a one wold order.
RD,
I know, shocking that a professional politician would lie. Sometimes I'm appalled by our elected "leaders."
The 1960 census has only the option of "negro" for blacks, although there is the "persons of foreign stock" choice. It makes sense that birth certificates would reflect the census terminology at that time, meaning Obama's father and Obama himself would have been listed as "negro."
Quote from: pagancelt on February 26, 2010, 03:19:24 PM
The 1960 census has only the option of "negro" for blacks, although there is the "persons of foreign stock" choice. It makes sense that birth certificates would reflect the census terminology at that time, meaning Obama's father and Obama himself would have been listed as "negro."
I understand your reasoning, but it doesn't prove that Hawaii used the same terminology. Could have been a blank filled in by the applicant for all I know.
When you find out and it doesn't jibe,
then it's evidence. Until then, though, it's just idle talk. Seems to be a lot of that presented as evidence in this claim. Hunches, guesswork, speculation, and conjecture, with no concrete evidence of any sort, do not a case make.
It's a hunch, wrapped in a guess, tied around speculation whilst swirling amidst conjecture.
Quote from: RainDog on February 26, 2010, 03:43:09 PM
Quote from: pagancelt on February 26, 2010, 03:19:24 PM
The 1960 census has only the option of "negro" for blacks, although there is the "persons of foreign stock" choice. It makes sense that birth certificates would reflect the census terminology at that time, meaning Obama's father and Obama himself would have been listed as "negro."
I understand your reasoning, but it doesn't prove that Hawaii used the same terminology. Could have been a blank filled in by the applicant for all I know.
When you find out and it doesn't jibe, then it's evidence. Until then, though, it's just idle talk. Seems to be a lot of that presented as evidence in this claim. Hunches, guesswork, speculation, and conjecture, with no concrete evidence of any sort, do not a case make.
The problem lies in the fact that it does not make him eligible to be president and the SCOTUS has said no one in the US is qualified or has authority to ask the almighty court to bring it to trial and have the positive proof. Obama has spent over 1.4 million on attorneys to force the American public to rely on hunches, speculation and guess work because he does not want to produce the proof. It would most likely remove him from office and render everything he has done illegal.
The Supreme court is owned.
Bah! The left railed against the supreme court after the GWB debacle in 2000. We've entered a new age in which each side will claim illegitimacy when their candidate looses. The only people winning in these debates are the political parties.
"If you think either party is the solution, you're part of the problem."
Quote from: cabinfever on March 05, 2010, 08:47:54 PM
Bah! The left railed against the supreme court after the GWB debacle in 2000. We've entered a new age in which each side will claim illegitimacy when their candidate looses. The only people winning in these debates are the political parties.
"If you think either party is the solution, you're part of the problem."
That is why I am right..... I don't like any of them... Now show me a REAL birth certificate.... Of course we havn't had a real honestly elected president in many decades ... they are all predetermined by the elite.
Now I wish I could find the original articles about this. I remember when this story first broke and his group posted his certificate on their website. but, then came a person who was born in hawaii the same year who posted his own certificate. looked nothing like the one on Obama's site. from there, it all went downhill. hey, I had to show my birth certificate to get my new drivers license. How hard can it be for a president to do? ???
I agree... it would have already been done of there was not a problem, and in fact, Obama and Hillary were working on getting the natural citizen requirement removed a couple years before he got into office. Others were not going for it so they chose the denial, removing of all information, blocking original sources and using the owned criminals running the Supreme Court (a joke) to block any possible attempts at getting a real trial as they have ruled that nobody in the US is qualified to ask the question.
It really does not matter because leadership of the US is determined by the elite anyway. How does it get limited to the two possible choices anyway. All predetermined. The Russians knew Palin was running with McCain around 4 months before it was officially announced.
Birthers or not, birth certificate or not - it really does not matter as there really is no choice that matters. It only changes the flavor of pain that the citizens will endure for the next four years.
Quote from: zion-diy on March 06, 2010, 09:29:48 AM
Now I wish I could find the original articles about this. I remember when this story first broke and his group posted his certificate on their website. but, then came a person who was born in hawaii the same year who posted his own certificate. looked nothing like the one on Obama's site. from there, it all went downhill. hey, I had to show my birth certificate to get my new drivers license. How hard can it be for a president to do? ???
I recall that article. The reason is the man who shoed his birth certificate showed his full birth certificate and not an abstract certificate. There is a difference between the two.