All the cabins where I am building my cabin use water storage tanks for their water. It is a dry subdivision meaning no wells. There are two community cisterns that are fed by one of the many springs that everybody gets there water from. I already have a water trailer to haul the water to my cabin. Before I start building in a few months I need to figure out two things. One where to put the water storage tank and two how to pressurize the water. Also being at 8000 feet freezing water is always an issue.
I can only think of two ways to handle the pressurization. One is gravity fed and the other is a 12v water pump controlled by a switch. Water needs will be small and all in the same corner of the cabin. 1 shower, 1 toilet and 2 sinks. Any other suggestions would be great.
Now for the tank placement. I have 15 feet on the uphill side to the property line. About 25 feet on the east side. On the south side is the septic tank and drain field. On the west side there are lots of trees and the path to the bunk house. It also a little on the downhill side.
Inside the foundation it is mostly dirt with a cement strip running down the middle for a frame for joist support. So I have the option to dig down further to put in a water tank. Another option would be to try and put the tank on the uphill side on the property line. Another thought would be to put the tank on the corner of the foundation next to the parking area. I need some ideas from you all that have been there and done that.
Attached are a few pictures to possible help with the ideas.
South side
(https://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww170/bret7763/cabin%20foundation/PICT0516.jpg)
West Side
(https://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww170/bret7763/cabin%20foundation/PICT0515.jpg)
North uphill side
(https://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww170/bret7763/cabin%20foundation/PICT0514.jpg)
Foundation - cement strip running down the middle
(https://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww170/bret7763/cabin%20foundation/PICT0513.jpg)
I thought I knew what I wanted to do but I am starting to second guess myself.
Ideas?
I do not have alot of expertise in this, so others may have ideas contrary to mine. However, if it was me I would want a large tank unpressurized - a large cistern, that is then pumped into a 100gallon or so pressure tank inside the house.
Perhaps the hill might be a good location for a buried tank if it can gravity feed from the community cistern you mentioned. Inside, a pressure tank handles the needs of the house. It's pressurized and semi-temperature steady, or at least insulatable.
How many gallons do you want to store?
Some of the 12v pumps have a pressure switch built in. No need to turn them on and off - just shut off the water faucet and they stop.
(https://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q75/djmillerbucket/jemez%20mountain%20property4/325gallons.jpg)
she's 5'11"
(https://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q75/djmillerbucket/jemez%20mountain%20property4/P1010498.jpg)
IF I had thought far enough ahead, and if I could have placed the tank in eactly the right spot, I would have buried the tank under the cabin and had that hand pump on the kitchen counter at the sink. With the tank buried we've had no problem with retreiving water with the hand pump. With temperatures outside down to zero degress the tank water came out of the ground at about 40 degrees.
This is a 325 gallon tank with manhole extension. Spherical tanks like this can be pumped dry, unlike other shapes. The typical buried loaf tank should never be left less than 25% full.
That hand pump was made to be easily removed and taken inside to prevent the valves in the unit from freezing. It's a couple minute job to switch on or off.
I would still have done the balance of the system the same way. That is a poly RV water tank under the sink, RV pressure pump that has auto shut off and supplies up to 2.8 GPM at roughly 40 PSI supplying water to the fixtures. We use an air compressor to blow the lines free and have a line to drain water back into the underground tank,
Mountain Don where did you find your tank?
I wondor would this work in a really cold winter area, we get -30s C and even -40s C in the winter months. How much is a tank like that? Can the pump be moterized so you dont have to hand pump it every time you need water?
These are some great ideas. I am thinking that I need a 100 gallons pressurized in or under the cabin. Out side of the cabin I need a 1500 gallon cistern on the property for fire control. I was thinking that I would put in a 2000 gallon tank for that and code says I can use the extra 500 gallons for water storage. Then in the late fall I would just bleed that off and leave the tank empty in the winter. I was thinking of putting this external tank in some kind of insulated box to keep it from freezing 8 months of the year. The other 4 months it would sit empty.
Quote from: rocking23nf on January 12, 2010, 10:04:08 AM
I wondor would this work in a really cold winter area, we get -30s C and even -40s C in the winter months.
No water storage tank will work if frozen... unless empty. The question is: "How to avoid freezing?" .... any tank will work when that is answered.
Is the soil "easy digging"? How deep is the frost line? Is an earth covered pit an option?
In my cabin location (Tenn), I just use plastic trash barrels that I pick up from Ace during their spring sale. (I don't need the volume you need.) Placed above ground, inside, they still freeze over ... but cheap enough to replace without much pain. (I add a bit of non-toxic antifreeze to the toilet flush water.) So far, no barrels have split.
1. I bought our tank from Tank Depot. (http://www.tank-depot.com)
2. It was around $450 or so IIRC
3. If the tank is deep enough in the ground the water will not freeze. That would be more or less the local frost level.
4. That pump I bought is available in a model that places the valve body underwater. It cost about 4x as much. That would eliminate the priming and freezing of the shallow model I bought. Oasis Pumps (http://www.oasispumps.com/)
5. A submersible pump could be used but I didn't want the expense of the pump nor the need of doing something to prevent the freezing of the pipe into the cabin. I our case with solar electric heat tapes, light bulbs, etc were not practical.
6. When low volume was mentioned I used my own low use numbers. We can make 15 gallons last 3 days easy as a rule. No laundry and navy showers.
7. Gravity flow works but keep in mind that you get 0.43 pounds of pressure per each foot of water head; for 20 psi you would need the tank to be about 46 feet higher than point of use.
8. You can insulate a tank, but if it sits there with no heat source and no new warmer water entering the tank, the water will freeze. I am reminded of this every time we return to the cabin. It is usually colder inside the insulated cabin than it is outside. And it's below freezing in there most of the winter when it is not heated. Outside it was around 43 one day when we arrived. It was something like 23 inside and had gone down to about 19. The point is, I believe the only way to ensure no freezing, without adding heat in some form, is to bury below frost level. Aeration can help but that requires power as well.
Do you have a feel of how far down in the ground you would have to go to keep a hundred gallon tank from freezing. I was thinking if it was a foot under ground I would be ok.
It would probably depend on the frost/freeze level. In this area at least 18-24". That would be to the top of the tank or highest water level. Other areas it could be more or less.
The water, or at least a good portion of it would have to be below frost level. We had some ice form in the top of our cistern when the tank was filled right to the top. I had to break the ice with a pole. After we used some water it never froze again.
Can anyone recommend a good book on off grid water for home use? I'm getting so confused as to what we need. We got a quote for a well of $3500. I was interested in cisterns but ones that you can walk into for cheese curing storage.
Quote from: UUmom2many on February 16, 2010, 11:09:15 AM
Can anyone recommend a good book on off grid water for home use?
Yep:
Cottage Water Systems: An Out-of-the-City Guide to Pumps, Plumbing, Water Purification, and Privies, by Max Burns. First published in 1999, but there's a 2004 edition that's worth hunting for.
Quote from: UUmom2many on February 16, 2010, 11:09:15 AM
Can anyone recommend a good book on off grid water for home use? I'm getting so confused as to what we need. We got a quote for a well of $3500. I was interested in cisterns but ones that you can walk into for cheese curing storage.
Depending on how deep your well is it could cost almost as much to set a pump in the well.
My 455 ft well was 5K to drill and another 3K for the pump, wire and piping.
I need help planning for water storage, too.
I'm lucky enough to have a spring near the top of my property, with a good 40 - 60 feet of head down to where the cabin will go, so I'll have "free" water pressure. However, this means that the cistern would have to be up by the spring. I would think I would want the water line to exit from the bottom of the tank into a buried (below frost line, which means 4 feet for me) down to the cabin. This could feed a pressure tank in the cabin for local storage.
Looking at the cisterns at the tank-depot link, it seems like all of them you have to pump out from the top. Is there any non-aftermarket way of putting the exit from the tank at the bottom. Obviously this increases the chance of leaks, but still...
I also was thinking of having a standpipe overflow, at least in non-winter, so that as the spring continues to feed the tank, it pushes water out of the tank so the water in there is always relatively fresh.
A completely airtight siphon tube could bring water from the bottom of the tank over the top as long as the tank was a bit over the height of the water exit and you primed the siphon tube one time.
The siphon tube would have to extend to near the bottom inside the tank, and would have to be re-primed each time the tank ran out.
Hey Glen,
35" of rain so far on my hill d* The only caution I think of when using a siphon out the top is that if the water sits in the pipe too long, it can cook off and you might not want to drink that slug of water. I did not look at the link in this thread at what type of tanks the OP is using but the standard Snyder tanks up in this area are easy to add an extra 2" valve on.
These have a 2-inch fitting already at the bottom:
http://www.tank-depot.com/productdetails.aspx?part=TN5128PT
But they aren't meant to be buried.
I am thinking of using one of these in the short term for non-winter only use (sitting above ground, just downhill fom the spring)
I want to have the spring water continually flow through the tank so it is always fresh. I was thinking of constructing an upside-down PVC U-tube coming out from the bottom fitting, with the top of the U at the height of a full tank. I'd put a vent there to prevent siphoning. At the bottom of the U (the other end, not the one attached to the bottom fitting), I'd have a 2-way valve, one way directing towards the creek (waste) and the other way feeding the hose down to the cabin.
This is how it would work:
Once the tank gets full, it spills over the top of the U and flows (wastes) to the drain-to-creek exit. So always fresh water in the tank. Because of the vent at the top of the U, the tank remains full (never empties via siphon). When I arrive for a stay at the cabin, I throw the valve the other way, and it fills up a pressure (i.e. with a diaphragm) tank in the cabin. That supplies the cabin.
Water will continue to flow into the tank, and the excess will have to overflow through the vent.
As I use water, the pressure tank gets replenished from the hydrostatic pressure coming down from the tank up the hill. Because of the diaphagm I continue to get the full hydrostatic pressure, without experiencing much of the friction loss flowing down the hose (unless of course I drain the cabin tank too much).
I think this would work.
It sounds great but testing can reveal other issues. If you have enough height you may not even need a pressure tank unless you have many water users.
QuoteThis is a 325 gallon tank with manhole extension. Spherical tanks like this can be pumped dry, unlike other shapes. The typical buried loaf tank should never be left less than 25% full.
That hand pump was made to be easily removed and taken inside to prevent the valves in the unit from freezing. It's a couple minute job to switch on or off.
I would still have done the balance of the system the same way. That is a poly RV water tank under the sink, RV pressure pump that has auto shut off and supplies up to 2.8 GPM at roughly 40 PSI supplying water to the fixtures. We use an air compressor to blow the lines free and have a line to drain water back into the underground tank.
MountainDon - I'm getting ready to put in what I think may be a similar system and so I have some questions about yours.
I assume that the manhole extension just lets you bury the tank deeper and have something to mount the hand pump on. When you take the hand pump off is there some sort of cap that seals the tank unit?
Is the hand pump is only for occasional use (fill up a bucket or whatever) while you have some sort of electric pump that moves water from your underground tank up to the poly RV water tank under the sink, or do you do that with the hand pump as well?
My last house had a well with one of those bladder pressure pump tanks in the garage which then distributed water to the house and yard. Is there anything like that in your system?
Anything that you would do different in you had to do it all over again?
Yes, the manhole extension is to allow the tank to be buried more than without one. The height worked out fine except for now that there's 30-36 inches of snow on the groiund. d* d*
That hand pump is the only pump. I did not install an electric pump with a line direct to the cabin. That's was partly because the cabin is left vacant during the freezing weather and that there is no grid electric power to use for heating purposes. Using an electric pump and water lines simply seemed too much to bother with because of the winter. Of course if we used it more in the winter time I would have to work around that.
We do not have a bladder/expansion tank in the system. Rather we use a 12 VDC RV pump designed to be used without an expansion tank.
What would I do different? I'd bury the tank deeper and use a taller manhole extension.
Last weekend we experienced a freeze problem. It seems the water in the downpipe/standpipe from the pump into the tank, did not bleed down enough or fast enough and froze. All pumping the pump did was develop a really good vacuum. Boiling water was insufficient to solve the problem. I have a fix in mind and will expand on that later in my cabin topic (http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=2335.0) as I get it all sorted out.
Thanks Don!
At least I don't have to worry about that much snow here near Puget Sound. Hard to get more than a foot to stick around here, and this year snow was almost non-existent around here. Had some come down, but no accumulation on the ground.
Rare for it to get below 20F here, although we did get into the teens this year, so I think a 24" manhole extension would work OK. Originally I was thinking no extension or a 15", but the 24" should work fine around here. No well right now on the property, but I have a neighbor who will let us run a long hose from his well so we can fill or top off the tank now and then.
A good source of rain water harvest info I use (and it's free).
http://www.twdb.state.tx.us/publications/reports/RainwaterHarvestingManual_3rdedition.pdf
Spoke to a few friends who are off grid. One swears his pressure pump keeps up with a 5 gallon pressure tank and that while he uses the shower, the pressure pump is pressurizing his tank. Another recommends a much larger tank which will result in less pressure pump activity. My setup will be off grid running on the battery bank. Any thoughts on ideal pressure tank volume for usually 2 people, sometimes 4, weekend camp? I was thinking at least 10?
Doc
Depends on source and needs.
What is your water supply? Spring, rainwater, well?
If you have water available - cistern - tank - spring etc. you can use a 12v RV type demand pump with integral switch and no tank. A well requires more.
The neighbor/contractor said I have the option of shallow or deep well, at $3K, or $10K. I will likely go shallow, as my needs are light, use intermittent. Pump will be on propane or attached to an array of batteries, with perhaps 1200AH. Solar fed. Needs will be light water use, 2 adults mostly, averaging 8 gallon showers each, occasionally up to 6 people. I was thinking a cistern of 65 gallons. Without a pressure tank, I'd need to hoist it into a steel tree stand 20-30ft up to get any pressure, and not much at that.
My friend's 5 gallon pressure tank begins to repressurize after he begins his shower and he notes he has never run out of pressure. Others online have recommended far larger tanks as necessary. Any thoughts?
Doc
You mention a cistern, maybe 65 gallons. Does that mean that you intend to have the well pump fill that tank when the sun shines and then you draw water from that tank as you need water, up to 65 gallons total before the well pump refills the tank?
If so Glenns suggestion of a an RV type on demand water pump could be the solution. They have a built in pressure switch. The pump will operate only when a faucet is opened, a toilet flushed, or something leaks. That's precisely what our cabin uses. The pumps are available in 12, 24 VDC and some in 120 VAC. Different models have different GPM capacities.
I'm cobbling together something that will work, but nothing is set in stone yet. I was going to run a solar pump, or draw power from the battery bank into a cistern. 65 gallons seems a reasonable cistern size for 4 people, but I've considered anything from 50 to 100. I have an Eccotemp L10 tankless water heater which will require 40PSI as per the manual. That necessitates a pressure tank and pump.I like the idea of staying with 12V as much as possible, so gutting the appliances from an RV seems like a great idea.
Glenn, is your RV pump with pressure switch pressurizing a tank or just providing pressurized water on demand?
That pump can work either way. You'll likely get more lifetime out of if by using a pressure tank, but it's not that big of a deal either way. They're fairly inexpensive, so by a spare when you get one. Make sure to put valves on both sides to facilitate easy replacement.
Thanks for the good info. Would you know what sort of pressure these RV pumps are designed to produce, if RV's use a pressure tank or on-demand system, and if so, how many gallons their tanks usually hold?
Could be, I'll gut an RV for the pump, lines, tank, right down to the shower head!
Doc
From the Shurflo website. This is my pump. Other models and makes will vary.
The material that came with this pump stated it was to be used without a pressure tank.
Name : *SHURflo Classic™ Pump
Model NumbersOEM/Aftermarket : 2008-422-144, 2008-422-444
Voltage : 12 VDC
Dimensions Inches/Millimeters : 7.84" x 5.0" x 4.62" [199 x 127 x 117mm]
Flow Rate GPM/LPM : 2.8 GPM [10.6 LPM]
Amps (Max.) : 7
Shut-Off Pressure : 45 PSI [3.1 BAR]
Thanks Don! Sounds like a little workhorse putting out up to 45 PSI. I may snap one up online.
At 7 amps and 12V, thats 84Watts while running full out I assume. 2.8GPM is just over what my tankless heater can run so I would anticipate no problems unless I was using the hot and cold water on full. Anyway, do you suppose the 84W over the course of a shower or two will use up more power than pressurizing a tank with enough water for same? Theoretically, it's the same, no?
Sorry I was not here for more comment - working out of town long days.
Looks like others got it well covered.
I used one for a horse watering tank uphill on a customer project and one to pressurize an RO filter for higher output at our other house before we drilled a new well. RO had a small tank -maybe a couple gallons and the horse tank just had a float shutoff.
I think it may use less power without the tank as it will not be working at full pressure during the shower. The tank will always go to full pressure before shutting off. 84 watts should be at max pressure while flowing at lower pressure should require less.
Something just popped into my head, which may or may not matter here.
The specs for that pump state it can lift water up 10 feet or something like that. If you install it higher than the cistern storage tank the flow falls. Badly IMO. I remounted the pump from sitting an inch above the water tank (16" or so tall) to slightly below the tank outlet. I am much happier with the output. The pump sounds happier too, runs more quietly.
Quote from: MountainDon on October 31, 2010, 11:19:06 PM
The specs for that pump state it can lift water up 10 feet or something like that. If you install it higher than the cistern storage tank the flow falls. Badly IMO.
Thanks for that bit of info, Don. I was looking at the stats on your model and thinking I might upsize slightly to their larger unit. My tankless heater puts out 2.8GPM max, but if the hot water is running wide open, and the cold water tap is opened, the Shur-Flo would struggle. With the info you gave, it might be well to have a slightly stronger pump to allow for faster flow rate, and for a bit more in the suction department. I know that ideally, pumps push, not suck, but my cistern would either sit beside my cabin (unsightly), or be almost buried, under the cabin which will be on 2ft posts. A bit more "oomph" wouldn't be a bad thing, I suppose.
After my experience I would buy the pump before installing the tank, run some tests and then decide.
I have a cabin that I trailer water in as well. I currently use a 2500 gal tank outside of my cabin with a standard 110 shallow well pump under the house and a pressure tank inside under the stairs. While I don't have the solution for you I have some observations after several years of use. http://www.countryplans.com/cowan.html
1. Your pressure tank needs to be as large as possible.
I like to shut things down in the evening and not run the generator or inverter. My pressure tank has proven itself to be too small. It is a 25 gal or so and a few toilet flushes or so and its done. A 25 gallon pressure tank does not equal 25 gallons of useable water. My neighbors use a 'booster" pump type of system that works fine but has its limitations. It is the small well pump with a 2.5 gallon pressure tank attached. It only works when the generator is on or it eats the batteries!
2. Larger holding tank is better
While I know how to live "like its an RV" the guests do not. If they are not running back and forth filling the water tank they don't really get it even though you explain it. As the host we smile hook up the trailer with the tank on it and go get more. I move 625 gallons at a time.
3. Bury the water lines from the tank and get them under the foundation stem wall.
My cabin is in Alaska and the water tank rarely freezes. I drain mine in late November after the last trip and some of the locals never drain theirs. The line from the tank into the cabin is a different story.
4. Insulate the crawl space foundation not the cabin floor.
If I were to do it again I would create an air tight foundation. That goes against current logic but is gaining in popularity. It involves spray foam and its easy at your stage. The floor of the crawl space and the stem walls are insulated. The earth is covered in plastic first. There are no foundation vents in this type of system and the floor is not insulated. It creates a warm floor and a dry crawl space. I may still do this and I will draw air for my wood stove from the crawl space and I will place a dummy vent in the opposite corner of the cabin to draw warm and dry air into the crawl space.
5. Think about water filters as an integrated part of the system early and possibly UV treatment.
I wish I had figured out where I was going to put my filters earlier. I still have not installed them. Even though I haul in treated water a little extra attention is still needed if you intend to drink it. You cant get all of the water out of a large tank and it does not look good in the spring.
Well I hope that helps and feel free to email.
Keep in mind if you oversize the pressure tank to a small pump you will stress pump parts and shorten pump life. From the old less is more design school of engineering.
At my Dad's camp in Ontario we start the generator to pump fresh water from a shallow well to pressurize a large pressure tank once or twice a day depending on how many people are using the water. The old leather seal piston pump is a challenge to prime at times. The lake is close so we don't use the pressurized water to wash. We generally haul a buckets of lake water to use in the toilet. Hot showers are rare and come from solar hot water bag hung in the sun in the morning.
Opening the camp takes a while but it is not complicated. Over the years when a low spot in the pipes didn't drain then froze and the pipe busted, Dad fixed the leak with a section of heater hose and clamps. I consider this a very elegant solution. Hooking up 3 or 4 sections each year is not much of a chore. Sometimes when the pressure is high or the hose is old and hard, it drips -- so be it. The next year I replace the hose. When we close, I loosen the clamp and pull off the hose. Voila, no low points to freeze. I am sure I am preaching to the choir here, but I am always amazed at how long 20 lbs of water in the tank will last.
My wife came to this place as an adult. After some initial culture shock, she loves it as much a I do. Some DARE brand double fudge cookies (rationed of course), home made bread, Canadian ale, and an occasional Northern Pike to fry give us great happiness. The northern lights make it almost heaven.
Good luck with your water! :)