I am planning on finishing the basement level and would like to match the pine flooring I am using in the rest of the cabin. I went around today, Lowes and Home Depot, to look at Pergo type flooring but none of them "did it" for me. The basement will be a walkout so raising the floor with sleepers might not be an option. So question is....
1). Is there any flooring out there that will nearly match (within reason) the pine floors?......
2). Is there a way to use pine directly over the concrete without problems down the road?..........
3). If I use sleepers, what is the thinest I can use without the moisture from the cret warping the floor?
I am not to excited about using carpet, since it defeats the "rustic cabin" I am looking for. Oh painted concrete is not my style either.
I know..................I'm a PITA.
Sounds like it is not built yet, so I would suggest a vapor barrier under the slab to prevent moisture problems with the wood then use the same type wood.
French drains can be installed around the perimeter to keep moisture drained away also.
Tile c*
We had some wood parquet in much of our home for 15 years. Glued to the concrete slab. Never had any moisture problems until a PB pipe gave way. That necessitated replacing the wood in the living room. The insurance paid for most of it. Now it's all tile and we both wish we had done tile way back when.
Can you put tile on a wood floor. I have allways wondered
Quote from: Whitlock on January 03, 2010, 08:50:53 PM
Can you put tile on a wood floor.
Sure, it's been done hundreds if not thousands of times. It may even have last worked out a few times in the right climate. [rofl2]
Now you got wondering what is so funny ???Was it my ? or the fact that it dosen't last in some climates.
And why doesn't it last and in what climate ???
Humm, there I go thinkin everyone on the same knowledge plain.
Wood moves , tile does NOT. So the tile on a good job is laid on hardibacker , light weight concrete, or some other brand of cement board.
If the crawl space is overly wet or water gets under the backer board due to a DW leak , ref ice maker leak etc , you still could have issues with the bonding , cracking , heaving of the wood below.
The cement board is glued with thin-set to the wood sub-floor and nailed with roofing nails generally. Then the cement board is floated , if there are irregularities, so it's flat. Then the tile is thinsetted or set in thin-set as it's laid.
Other products such as anti-fracture are added to some floors where a portion may have to laid , very common on remodels, directly on a small chunk of wood sub floor. On new work one should never "box their self " into that condition.
Thats the basics there more that can go wrong and has gone wrong, but thats a very brief over view of tile and it's substrates. A real tile guy could add more to this , but for what I've seen and heard on the job by tile guys that "do it right" thats basically the drill.
Thanks Peg
Never did anything but hardwood. Looks like the little lady won't be getting tile I hate fixing things twice.
So linoleum it is :-\
Quote from: Whitlock on January 03, 2010, 11:04:27 PM
Never did anything but hardwood. Looks like the little lady won't be getting tile I hate fixing things twice.
So linoleum it is :-\
What where you going to lay over?
Maybe you could lay Hardi over your existing wood floor :o
Give us a chance , we'll spend some of your money! The economy needs it :o
Uh ruff cut 2x12's
I know I'm hopless I have Glenn as a teacher [waiting]
I figure I'm going to put down some t&g plywood over that first.
Unless you have a better idea.
Quote from: Whitlock on January 03, 2010, 11:15:11 PM
Uh ruff cut 2x12's
I know I'm hopless I have Glenn as a teacher :-\
Oh on your cabin? I'd stick with the rustic wood, or underlay it with satin ply, normally I'd say with particle board for a full time place, PB IS the right under-layment for vinyl, no voids , under normal house hold use with consistent humidity or at least not wild dampness , (followed by quick wood stove heating like a cabin) PB is the best under-layment , or so they say. It's what we use up here in Washington anyway. Other areas may have other suggestions.
So for your cabin satin ply would be the way to go. I would NOT glue it to the timbers on the floor unless you wait a few , maybe four years for it to settle to a equal MC( Moisture Content).
If you "have" to get-er done sooner. Nail it down with hand driven ring shanks , fill the hammer dents and the seams with floor leveler, then lay the vinyl right away. And hope for the best.
What happend to spending my money ???
Will this work with tile If I use hardibacker? Do I put down PB frist?
The wife has her mind set on slate tile [frus]
You quarry the slate ... about 5 miles from here....
Quote from: Whitlock on January 03, 2010, 11:39:06 PM
What happend to spending my money ???
Will this work with tile If I use hardibacker? Do I put down PB frist?
The wife has her mind set on slate tile [frus]
I think I confused you, the PB or Satin ply would be for a vinyl lay not slate or tile.
On that cabin floor, with the 2x12's have I'd be leery about using tile, maybe if you waited that couple of years , then laid the Hardi over the 2bys, but I'd still be concerned with the 2by's moving which would move the Hardi which would move the tile and crack the grout and/ or tiles.
You'd need to almost float the Satin ply , on maybe red rosen paper, red building paper, same thing almost, and hope the Satin ply stays flat , minimal nails or screws to pull it down.
Still a big risk, maybe others have better ideas?
Thanks Peg
I think I'm going to talk her into hardwood.It is something I know.
She is worried about the matintenance. But me I like old wore out, scrched up, dented stuff.
(The used look)
I have used a vinyl slipsheet over wood under the ceramic tile as recommended by one tile installer. A couple problem areas but it worked.
http://www.schluter.com
Someone on CP pointed to these people but I don't know if it is ok
or too expensive. It looks like it would work though.
Bruce
I am not sure whether Ditra or Kirdi would work under this circumstance. Normally thinset is used with both products to secure tile. It might work on a "floating" type laminate but regular hardwood? Maybe a call to them will put some insight into their product.
Schluter Systems L.P.
194 Pleasant Ridge Road
Plattsburgh, NY 12901-5841
Tel.: 1-800-472-4588
What about using a flex bond agent in the thin set. That should allow dor a little movement.
In Texas we have to deal with concrete slab floors. Most of our house is now tile except we wanted to use wood for the bedrooms, office and dinning area. You cannot put wood directly concrete becuae of moisture. There are a number of floating systems but we don't like the hollow sound when you walk on it.
We did find that there are engineered wood products that are rated to be glued down directly to concrete. They consist of a ply structure with the top 1/6 to and 1/8 being the finished wood. These are in 3/8 to 1/2 inch thickness. Boards come in various lengths and are tongue and grove so you place them randomly.
We got lucky and found a full pallet of 1/2 inch engineered wood at a big box store that someone had to return because their foundation was too bad to lay down the wood. We bought it for 50%off!
The process has taken some time becuase I had to use floor leveling compound in some areas and getting used to working with the glue took a bit of practice. One room done and 4 more to go but will go much faster now.
Quote from: kalstar on January 04, 2010, 10:32:40 AM
What about using a flex bond agent in the thin set. That should allow dor a little movement.
kalstar, I assumed you were asking about covering a slab, if so I lean heavily towards tile.
I think Whitlock is wanting to cover a post and beam floor system with heavy decking? If so its all about deflection, of all parts, the decking, the joists or the girders. Deeply into "it depends".
Yes, I am looking to go over poured concrete.
River What is the name of the company that sells the wood product that can go over cement?
The stuff we're using is called Robbins and is owned by Armstrong. You should be able to find similar material in the big box stores or some of the independents. As mentioned it'll be an engineered product rated for gluing on concrete.
We knew we wanted wood so we kept an eye out and lucked out by finding 900 sqft at such a good price. Most will be 3/8 thick.
I agree that tile is a bit easier but we already put tile down and wanted a contrast and warmer finish so we went with wood.
Weigh out the costs of product and install for both.
Cheers
Could be thread drift here, but... I have a heated slab. Wifey wanted wood over it. I researched, considered ceramic or porcelin but ended up DIY acid staining the concrete. No wood buckling, no grout lines. She's happy, I'm happy. www.kemiko.com There's others, this is the brand my local supplier had.
Quote from: builderboy on January 21, 2010, 04:23:13 PM
Could be thread drift here, but... I have a heated slab. Wifey wanted wood over it. I researched, considered ceramic or porcelin but ended up DIY acid staining the concrete. No wood buckling, no grout lines. She's happy, I'm happy. www.kemiko.com There's others, this is the brand my local supplier had.
Have any idea what that radiant heating cost per square foot, roughly? Oh, and the acid stain too. Just a ballpark guesstimation?
There's a recent article in Fine Homebuilding talking about hardwood over concrete slab. They used a high-quality vapor barrier (10mil or 15mil of custom reinforced poly vapor barrier) over the concrete followed by two layers of plywood, I think something like 5/8" each. I can't quite remember, but I think the sheets of ply were perpendicular to each other too. I.e. you basically build a new subfloor floating over the concrete and use a lot of plastic to keep the moisture out. Certainly not at the cheap-and-quick end of the possible options.
Also saw the Fine Homebuilding article. Thought it had a foam board seam sealed w/house tape, then plywood, then hardwood. Lots of height stack-up, so plan on major stair adjustment or goofy (and dangerous) short step at bottom.
Raindog, IIRC it cost about $2/sqft to have 2"foam and the hot water tubing installed (over & above the original slab quote). The acid staining cost me about $1/sqft BUT I did the labor which is extensive in the prep phase if you don't have a new clean slab. That bought the acid stain & sealer, rented a floor scrubber for 2 days plus various incedentials needed for the task. Prices in Canadian bucks.
Quote from: builderboy on January 25, 2010, 07:58:27 PM
Raindog, IIRC it cost about $2/sqft to have 2"foam and the hot water tubing installed (over & above the original slab quote). The acid staining cost me about $1/sqft BUT I did the labor which is extensive in the prep phase if you don't have a new clean slab. That bought the acid stain & sealer, rented a floor scrubber for 2 days plus various incedentials needed for the task. Prices in Canadian bucks.
Thanks a lot. Sounds like you got a great price on that radiant flooring. I'd like to do the same, but am still wavering. The prices I've seen seem to be in the six bucks per sq ft range.
Would you do that concrete floor if you had to do it all over again? I love the looks of those, and have lived in loft-type apartments with concrete flooring, but I sure do hear a lot of folks recommend against 'em, so I do have to wonder if maybe I just missed something, somehow.
The article, "A Wood Floor That Can Survive Anywhere." , as mentiioned above, appeared in the Nov 2009 issue of Fine Homebuilding.
There is an interesting response: "A Warmer Basement Floor" in the "Letters" section of the March 2010 issue of Fine Homebuilding.
Hey guys I wanted to jump in here. I used ceramic tile on top of Hardi backer board screwed down on
1 1/4" T&G plywood on top of wood I-beam joists in a pier and beam foundation. Tile has been in now
for two years and not a crack anywhere. Have I just been lucky? Do you think I will get cracks? And if I do,
how do I make it right? Oh and I built a shower on the same floor using ceramic tile too. And no cracks there either.
Okie Bob
Your floor should be fine as long as the deflection on those I beam joists is within the allowable ceramic tile range.
L/360 is the maximum deflection for ceramic tile, L/720 for natural stone.
If you ever do get cracks better talk to your builder about his warranty. ;D ;D ;D
As Don has stated. You are probably within your tolerable deflection. If Not and it would ever fail you could sister some addition joist to your existing or put another beam midways of your span.