Saturday morning we are leaving on a driving trip from Texas to Sacramento to visit grand-babies (and son & DiL too ;D ). Then we are going to have a 'vacation' on the way back home. Weather dependent, we will be visiting national parks and monuments either in higher elevations across AZ or very near the border.
Given the massive unemployment in AZ & So Cal, I'm wondering whether it would be wise to travel with a couple of pistols? Not quickly/easily accessible from the front seats, but buried in the luggage area of the station wagon.
No, I do not have a concealed carry permit in Texas.
I've made this same trip 3 other times without carrying but am a bit unsure this time.
Opinions - yeah or nay please.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Leo
Absolutely !
It is far better to have and not need a weapon, than to need and not have it.
I would carry it in the car, not on me.
But it could become a legal nightmare if it was discovered by a cop.
The law in every state is different. You could call and ask the highway dept in each state what the law is there.
Living in california my whole life I have seen alot of crazyness [crz]
Working in the valley is were I have seen the most.As big as I am most won't try me they are looking for the easy score. Only one time did I have to pull out the hand cannon and that was 10 years ago they ran.
I flashed a big wad of bills when I went to pay for gas.They tryed me at the pump.
Don't be flashy.
You only need one pistol and have it ready.
When I was a kid I worked at a car wash. One out of three cars had a gun in it. I bet it is higher now.
There is a Federal firearm transportation act. As long as it is legal to have it in the state you started from, you may transport it through ANY state regardless of state law.
It has to be unloaded and locked in the trunk and the ammunition separated from the gun.
That's the condensed version and it's always unwise to get legal advice from an internet forum. Look it up and read it. There are two states that are a major PITA. Massachusetts and Maryland.
Don't advertise you have one in either.
So long as states on your route allow, it really boils down to whether having it, after all things considered, makes you feel secure enough to be worth it.
I carried for years until ultimately coming to the decision that the "feel good" I got from it didn't outweigh the hassle and the minuscule chances that in the unlikely event of some cataclysmic circumstance it would prove decisive in a positive outcome.
I had my car broken into once and a reasonably valuable handgun stolen. Wish I hadn't been toting it around that day.
There are also a million other obscure items you could carry along that might be life savers given some set of unlikely circumstances.
If it's legal then it all boils down to a personal decision. Is it worth it for you on a personal level? If so, then do it.
I am also in Texas and leaving on Saturday but our destination is Colorado for 10 days. I had the exact same question as you about this. I do not have a ccw either as I wont agree to the limitations it requires. Basically, what I found was to separate the ammo from the firearm in a way that it cannot be loaded "while your driving" like one in the trunk, one in glovebox. That works just fine for me, I am bringing it for the hotels stays in unknown parts, and for the remote possibility of roadside trouble.
good luck on your trip - enjoy those kiddos.
Quote from: muldoon on December 17, 2009, 09:50:11 AM
like one in the trunk, one in glovebox.
ammo in the glove box, not the gun
I'm a CCW permit holder in Ohio. One reason for the permit is so I can carry a loaded gun in the truck while in Ohio.
I don't see much benefit in having an unloaded gun in your vehicle. As far as protection in hotels, parks, etc. there are plenty of alternative forms of protection.
One defensive device that I have is a pepper ball gun. Should be less legal hassle if used.
I always carry a knife and usually have easy access to some form of blunt instrument. ;D
poppy, I hope we can agree to disagree. I just dont see it quite the same as you.
QuoteI don't see much benefit in having an unloaded gun in your vehicle.
I see it the opposite, in a drive across the country scenario I see no benefit in having a loaded firearm in the vehicle. If your driving it's not like someone will come mug you while your driving down the freeway. It is the times when you are in hotels or the like that you might want to be protected.
QuoteOne defensive device that I have is a pepper ball gun. Should be less legal hassle if used.
I dont think of a gun as a toy nor something to be used without some very specific reasons. Guns (of any type) are not for scaring people, or teaching them a lesson, or even wounding them. To be clear, I would never shoot anyone "to make friends" if the situation is at the point that it is required, then that is what is required. Using a less than lethal option just seems wrong to me .. as in .. if you agree that the only real valid use of such a device is to protect your life or your families life, then why would you choose something not in return? It would be like saying I was afraid for my life, so I shot him with a bbgun. It seems wrong to me - if your scared for your life then you respond by fighting for your life, not by being "nice" and trying to go easy on him. I dunno, that's just how I see it. If your not returning the level of danger as you perceive he is to you I would question how much danger you really thought you were in.
QuoteI always carry a knife and usually have easy access to some form of blunt instrument.
I carry a pocket knife too, a fine tool that has many uses.
Lots of good POV's to consider. If I could change one thing in my life it would be procrastination. I'm always analyzing - sometimes too much. If'n I remember I'll log in from the motel on Saturday night and let y'all know what my decision was/is.
Thanks again.
Unfortunately, I had to display a weapon once when traveling in west Texas. Fortunately, I had something at the time to display. Or, we could have been in a lot of trouble . . . (better to be tried by twelve, than carried by six)
/
muldoon
Quotepoppy, I hope we can agree to disagree. I just dont see it quite the same as you
.
Yep, we can certainly agree to disagree. This is a hot-button issue and it has been cussed and discussed ad nauseum on a couple of firearm forums that I frequent.
There may be general consensus on the right of self-defense but there seems to be little or no consensus on the details.
I guess my overall position is that we need to have the freedom to arm and protect ourselves as we see fit.
I would suggest getting a CCW permit from Florida and Utah. I hear that with a permit from both those states, you are covered for a VAST majority of the Continental 48. Then all you have to do is learn the carry laws in each state you are passing through, which in my opinion is the real hassle.
However PeterNap was right in saying there is a Federal Law allowing for the transportation of guns through states, though the gun and ammo must be stored separately and the gun must be locked up. He also offered good advice in learning the law(s) for yourself. Never trust what someone says 100%. Mostly because laws change, are added, or dropped ALL the time so what someone remembers from last year could be totally different this year, or there could have been a clause added in the last legislative session; I suggest using the advice you've gotten here and looking up the corresponding laws yourself.
These should be good starting points for you:
TEXAS-
http://www.nraila.org/statelawpdfs/TXSL.pdf
Tex. Penal Code § 46.01 et seq.
Tex. Gov't. Code § 411.171 et seq.
ARIZONA-
http://www.nraila.org/statelawpdfs/AZSL.pdf
Ariz. Rev. Statutes §§12-714, 13-2904, 13-3101, 13-3102, 13-3105, 13-31-07, 13 3109, 31-3112, 17-301,17-301.1, 17-305, 17-312.
CALIFORNIA-
http://www.nraila.org/statelawpdfs/CASL.pdf
Cal. Penal Code §12020 et. seq.
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/
Well....I'm going to side with Muldoon.
In Va we can carry a gun in our trucks or nearly anywhere else, loaded or unloaded, including in a holster, as long as it is visible, without a permit of any kind.
The major exceptions are schools, Court Houses and State and National parks.
I still carry unloaded and in the side containers in the parks. Here's a good example:
My daughter and her husband mountain bike and camp a lot in National Parks. she can't carry there (Thankfully that changes soon)
I insist she take a cased and unloaded shotgun which is legal.
On one trip, she was near camp and her husband was riding by himself. A truck full of good old boy went by then turned around and drove back by again.
She went in the tent and pulled the shotgun out of the case, loaded it (Illegal but the right move) and proped it in the inside of the tent where it couldn't be seen.
About an hour later the truck came by again and stopped. She reached inside the tent and put the gun in her lap. The truck saw it and left never to be seen again.
Having been one of those good old boys myself at one time. I doubt she was in any danger...but then again, who knows. The moral of the story, she had it whereas Poppy wouldn't have.
Other defensive devises are good. I've alwayss taught people that if they have to shoot someone, something has gone terribly wrong. Sometimes that's just what happens though.
I carry Bear spray, and a Taser and taught knife fighting for a lot of years. Those are all things that everyone should have and know how to use but sometimes nothing short of a gun will stop the fight and if you don't have it, you're dead.
Recently we had a justifiable shooting in Va that's a good example.
A fellow went into a small grocery store. He did not have a permit but was legally open carrying. A robber came in and shot the owner without any discussion. He was about to shoot another customer when the OC'er shot him....several times, and still had to hit the fellow over the head with the gun to stop him.
Do you think pepper balls would stop someone on drugs that can take repeated hits with a 45 LC and still keep shooting? I don't think I'd want to take him on with a knife either.
The owner survived as did everyone else except the robber. Without the gun, everyone but the robber would have died.
I wouldn't put any faith in pepper spray.
I'm sure a quite a number of posters here have gone through NBC training in the service, where they march a group of gas mask wearing trainees into a hut filled with CS gas, then have them take their masks off and march them around a little more before allowing them to exit. Well, my mask didn't work. I don't remember the exact dysfunction, and the exact reason I didn't have it replaced with a functional one, but I didn't or couldn't. I just slit my eyes down to the absolute minimum necessary to see shadowy movement, and limited my breathing as best I could to shallow breaths when I simply couldn't hold my breath any longer.
Anyway, it affected some worse than others. About half the guys dropped to their hands and knees, retching with mucous spilling out of their noses, and the other half did little better. Wasn't that terrible for me since I'd limited contact of my mucous membranes with the gas as best I could. Was unpleasant enough, but had I been told to smile and march back into that hut I could have done so without hesitation.
That was a rather strong blast of the stuff, in a small confined area. I'm relatively certain that a tough and determined individual in the open and having been sprayed with a little shot of consumer grade pepper spray would be more likely enraged than disabled.
Hey, I could be wrong for a million reasons, but that's the extent of my experience, so I have to go with that.
Every one is making valid points. As I have said we will never agree on the details.
The 4 cops who were killed in Lakeland, WA were armed and trained, yet one man took them out.
I'm certainly not suggesting that it was of no value for them to be armed, I'm simply suggesting that there are no simple answers to these types of questions.
When I worked for the Feds, I was traveling by myself all the time. I was in Montana and stopped at a rest area. I had heard about a rapist that was in the area. When I pulled into the rest area, there was only one car there. I had an uneasy feeling so I grabbed my gun, had a permit, and went to use the restroom. I was washing my hands and this scruffing looking guy walked into the ladies room. Scared me, so I pulled my gun, he high tailed it out fast. He was gone when I carefully walked out. Called the police when I got to a phone, no cells at that time. The car discription match the discription of the rapists car. The gun saved me from being raped and possible murdered. Now I travel with 2 large dogs and my husband, former football player and a gun.
Just my opinion, but sometimes you don't get a second chance.
Quote from: RainDog on December 18, 2009, 09:53:34 AM
I wouldn't put any faith in pepper spray.
I'm sure a quite a number of posters here have gone through NBC training in the service, where they march a group of gas mask wearing trainees into a hut filled with CS gas, then have them take their masks off and march them around a little more before allowing them to exit. Well, my mask didn't work. I don't remember the exact dysfunction, and the exact reason I didn't have it replaced with a functional one, but I didn't or couldn't. I just slit my eyes down to the absolute minimum necessary to see shadowy movement, and limited my breathing as best I could to shallow breaths when I simply couldn't hold my breath any longer.
Anyway, it affected some worse than others. About half the guys dropped to their hands and knees, retching with mucous spilling out of their noses, and the other half did little better. Wasn't that terrible for me since I'd limited contact of my mucous membranes with the gas as best I could. Was unpleasant enough, but had I been told to smile and march back into that hut I could have done so without hesitation.
That was a rather strong blast of the stuff, in a small confined area. I'm relatively certain that a tough and determined individual in the open and having been sprayed with a little shot of consumer grade pepper spray would be more likely enraged than disabled.
Hey, I could be wrong for a million reasons, but that's the extent of my experience, so I have to go with that.
Used properly, pepper is fine. The problem is, very few people use it correctly and the ones that need it most, (Women and please no sexiest comments. I'm a male chauvinist pig, I know ;D) can't use it to it's potential.
Pepper is not a stopping weapon. It is best to temporarily blind and distract the person while you subdue him (Read that as beat the devil out of him)
I've used it more times than I like to remember and the procedure was always the same. Spray and cuff as quickly as possible. Bear spray is hotter and works better. It is also illegal to use on humans. Worry about that little technicality if it ever comes up.
A Taser is much better. I love mine. It has limitations also. A bad hit or an extremly fat person, won't work. The distance has to be just right... too close and the probes don't have enough spread and too far out, you run out of wire. 7 feet is about perfect.
The better organized street gangs have come up with maneuvers to defeat Tasers. One that works pretty well is to twist your body and crouch down while tensing your muscles. When the barbs hit, your body is like a spring that was released and causes you to spin and break the wires.
The gun should always be the last resort ....but it should always be as available as possible.
One of the great advantages of pepper, Tasers, ax handles, etc...is that you can just walk away. For those that haven't ever been involved in a shooting, no matter how justified...the investigation is NOT something you want to go through.
If anyone is thinking of buying a Taser and pepper, choose Pepper spray that does not use Alcohol as a carrier (I like Halon. It works better and can actually be used as a fire extinguisher in an emergency).
If you follow the natural order of force and spray someone first and the carrier is Alcohol, then Tase them, you can and it has happened...set him on fire. Thi causes some legal problems as well as moral issues.
I carried a gun when trucking in the early eighties. An Arizona cop noticed my shells when he rather illegally flipped open the glovebox, and asked about firearms.
He asked why I carried it. I told him it was to protect my load and that someone had tried to break in a few nights before in Dallas, Tx. He was good with that.
I had no permit but that was years ago.
QuoteI wouldn't put any faith in pepper spray.
I don't know, I got sprayed once in high school (as a joke!) and could barely move or breathe for at least 2 minutes. Thought I was going to die. That was 30 years ago- maybe they made the s*** better then I don't know, but I can tell you that I was completely incapacitated.
Now to ruffle some feathers. Though I can see that my opinion is of the minority here, I feel there are some facts that need to be pointed out. First off I am in no way against guns, in fact I own several and keep plenty of ammo handy. There are times when nothing else will do, such as recently when my dog mortally wounded a skunk who then took refuge under one of my trailers. The 22 came in pretty handy in that instance.
As for self defense I think they are over rated. Yes, there could come a time in your life where having a loaded gun handy could save your life but I doubt its likely. In my 47 years I have yet to find myself in need of a loaded pistol. Yes I have traveled a lot and been in, and
lived in some very questionable neighborhoods. Also none of my friends, nor any of their acquaintances have ever found themselves in this predicament. I am not a hermit so this involves many hundreds of folks over my lifetime, many of them dead, but none from violent criminal acts. Lucky? Maybe. Probably. But I contend that much can be said for common sense, and knowing what situations to avoid. Also consider that those who carry a big stick are more apt to be comfortable in dangerous situations, if not seek them out.
I lived in a major city in Arizona for many years where a fair amount of folks openly packed heat and many others hid it. I don't like it, never did. Let's say I'm enjoying a nice dinner out with my wife and and there is some dude at the table across from us with a lazy eye and a twitch in his neck packing a 9 mm. Doesn't exactly make my dinner so relaxing. One fellow I knew would show up at social affairs wearing a fancy six shooter. Many adult beverages were consumed, and I made it a point to try and keep something solid between him and myself as the evening progressed.
My point is that that though all of you may handle your weapons in a completely responsible way, 100 % of the time, That is asking a lot from the general public. Kindly old Uncle Joe might be on his 5th gin & tonic, or pistol packin' Aunt Mildred may have forgotten to take her nerve pills. So now I have to ponder weather I need to start carrying to protect me from all the 'good guys'. I think a lot of folks have the romantic notion that they are like Clint Eastwood in "Fistfull of Dollars" taking on all comers in a grand show of bravado, but it wasn't like that then and it sure aint now. Any thoughtful criminal will have the drop on you and if you do take a bullet it will most likely be in the back.
I know many will quote statistics that prove that guns save lives, and I know they sometimes do, but when I lived in the city you could scarcely go beyond a day without reading about someone who got shot by a friend or loved one. Nearly always the shooting was influenced by drugs, the primary one of course being alcohol.
The end of my rant- I may change my mind as my age progresses and I become more feeble. For now I refuse to live in fear.
Quote from: peternap on December 18, 2009, 11:28:05 AM
Used properly, pepper is fine. The problem is, very few people use it correctly and the ones that need it most, (Women and please no sexiest comments. I'm a male chauvinist pig, I know ;D) can't use it to it's potential.
Oh, absolutely! When used by an able-bodied, trained, and psychologically prepared individual as a part of an arsenal of tools designed to subdue and capture, I have no doubt pepper spray can be effective alternative to lethal force.
As definitive protection against a violent and determined aggressor with some distinct advantage, used by your Joe Man-on-the-street... Not so much.
The American Rifleman consolidates articles from newspapers across the nation on how people have defended themselves from harm via firearms. We recently had a single woman in her sixties probably save her life when shooting a drug crazed man was breaking in her front door. She warned him several times to stop that she had a gun and would use it if he did not stop. All recorded by 911 and played on the news.
If you look at the cause of death you will find you should be equally afraid to die from a car accident, more afraid of dying of the flu, or even more afraid of dying of an infection from a trip to the hospital than death by a firearm. This year the homicide rate is the lowest since 1960 while gun ownership has increased over the years. So the liberal anti-gun biased media tries to get us all afraid of guns allowing Government to exert more absolute control over us instead of addressing alcoholism, infections, disease, rape, drugs, and gangs. You keep control of your citizens through fear. And of course the cities with the highest homicide rates (Chicago and Washington DC) have unconstitutional restrictions on firearm ownership so only the bad guys have guns and the good guys can only fight back with pepper spray. An armed society is a polite society.
Back before the locusts got my guns, I used to frequently carry concealed. I did so more often when I was with my family. If I am alone, I am going to comply right up to the point where I know that my life is in danger no matter what. I will hand over every bit of cash and jewelry, and will look for the first opportunity to run before shooting. If escape is not likely, or if I am with my family and their ability to leave is compromised, then things change.
My CCW instructor did a great job of describing the litigation and moral consequences of shooting someone, even in self defense. He said that you never engage without being completely committed. I am hoping that this does not cause hesitation if it is ever needed. I can assure you it will be the last resort for me. (Assuming I ever replace those guns). I advocate 100% for the safe, continuous possesion of a firearm for sane, sober, responsible individuals.. whether sitting on the couch or driving accross country.
I respect the right of those who feel that they don't want to carry. But I will always attempt to change their minds!
I'm not going to bring a knife (or pepper) to a gun fight. I think pepper works well if the other person is not armed or doped up. I went through the gas booth exposure too. Getting sprayed directly in the face is different than gas exposure. Pepper can be great for delaying the aggressor while you get away. Unless you are strong and handy up close, it is not good for situations where retreat is not possible.
I won't quote any statics. I Don't try to convince people to carry or not. I convince politicians o we can all make our choices.
We have open carry dinners once a month., Thought I'd show ome of the scumbags that pack their 9's ;D
(http://photos.oldva.org/albums/userpics/IMG_3610.jpg)
(http://photos.oldva.org/albums/userpics/IMG_3609.jpg)
(http://photos.oldva.org/albums/userpics/a1.jpg)
(http://photos.oldva.org/albums/userpics/oc1.jpg)
(http://photos.oldva.org/albums/userpics/oc9.jpg)
(http://photos.oldva.org/albums/userpics/p21.jpg)
(https://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa57/peternap/oc4-1.jpg)
Yesiree....the wild bunch, :)
dude at the table across from us with a lazy eye and a twitch in his neck packing a 9 mm. Doesn't exactly make my dinner so relaxing. One fellow I knew would show up at social affairs wearing a fancy six shooter. Many adult beverages were consumed,
peternap:
Cool company you keep! I was able to pick out Yul Brynner, Vin Diesel, Ben Kingsley, "Stone Cold" Steve Austin, and Telly Savalas!
Strange goings on Peter. Not the folks in the pictures, but the pictures themselves.
In firefox all I see is the last one that is hosted on photobucket.
The other 6 that are hosted on Old VA don't show at all. Empty canvas.
On IE8 I get 6 red X placemarks and then the photobucket image.
Google Chrome is no better than IE8.
Is the server Old VA is on still sluggish, throttled... maybe related to a slow upload for the images here? ???
Anyone else???
Can you see them Raindog. I just redirected server so ther may be an issue
No problem here. Running Firefox on XP. No problem on my Vista machine either. Dunno.
Addendum: Whoops! Just lost all but the last one, I guess after the redirect.
Quote from: MountainDon on December 18, 2009, 05:21:02 PM
Strange goings on Peter. Not the folks in the pictures, but the pictures themselves.
In firefox all I see is the last one that is hosted on photobucket.
The other 6 that are hosted on Old VA don't show at all. Empty canvas.
On IE8 I get 6 red X placemarks and then the photobucket image.
Google Chrome is no better than IE8.
Is the server Old VA is on still sluggish, throttled... maybe related to a slow upload for the images here? ???
Anyone else???
Don't Know Don.
I changed hosts and Re-directed the Domain a little while ago. Everything seems fine.
This is my photo album. See if you show anything.
http://photos.oldva.org/index.php
Page Not Found
Quote from: RainDog on December 18, 2009, 05:31:57 PM
Page Not Found
Now I'm really confused. It's coming up for me and it shows in the server directory ???
I cant see pics
when I was younger goofing around w/pepper sspray, my eyes burned and watered for about a 1/2hr. I couldnt do anything but rub my eyes. good thing I wasnt playing w/ a pistol
Well - I decided to carry both my 9mm and my .357. In the hotel room the .357 resided close to hand. In the car both are buried deep and not accessible.
Through two Border Patrol Check Points yesterday and saw a Texas HWP have what appeared to be a woman and kids standing off to the side while he rummaged around in their trunk. No details obviously as I passed at 75 MPH, but for me that is the worst nightmare as our Supreme Court has ruled that we citizens can have zero expectation of privacy outside our homes. Too much 'big brother' for my tastes.
Leaving Deming here in an hour or so and heading for the night in Palmdale.
To me, it's not worth it unless you're going to be staying in a very dangerous area. If you do have to use your gun and you weren't carrying it legally, you'll be crucified by the legal system. The chances of being attacked are low, and the chances of dying are even lower.
i'm back from colorado now, had a great trip. no issues with the firearm and no cause to even load it. that works for me.
sardonic, I do understand you but when your traveling 2 or 3 thousand miles by car over a 2 week period you dont always know in advance when you are going to be a bad neighborhood. your second statement about getting crucified by the legal system is very accurate. there are plenty of cliches about this, judged by 12 then carried by 6 comes to mind. but the fact remains that there are certainly consequences to peoples choices in this situation and they should be considered before doing it. I think the original poster leo and certainly myself were considering those exact things when this question came up.
4084 miles and not a hiccup.
5 Border Patrol check points.
2 National Parks and 1 National Monument.
The only place I felt the least bit of apprehension was in El Paso. Scruffy looking guys on the street outside the motel - but no issues.
To carry or not to carry is still a question. For now, carrying for that 'just in case' scenario seems to me to be valid.
Stay downtown somewhere in El Paso?
Quote from: RainDog on January 02, 2010, 09:44:05 PM
Stay downtown somewhere in El Paso?
Yep. La Quinta Inn. Exit 26 I think.