I know there are some very experienced shooters on the board
Something about this story doesn't pass the smell test
http://www.lewrockwell.com/spl/ft-hood-story-full-of-holes.html
sbip
After the horrible massacre at Ft. Hood, I spoke with a few people who served in the military. A retired army Capt. who served 7 years in the 173rd Airborne including time as a S-3 in a RSTA squadron said this: "There is no way a psychiatrist – basically an intellectual desk jockey – shot off hundreds of rounds with two pistols and hit about 40 people without being subdued by someone. Come on! He wasn't a trained assassin or a special ops commando shooting up a mall. He would have had to reload and that means putting one of the pistols down and reloading the other with seasoned combat vets in that deployment center. It only takes seconds to reload, but it only takes a second to subdue him."
A retired MP, Michael Martinez also said: "No way! That would be impossible. Even if he had two semi-auto pistols [according to early reports he used a 9mm and a .357 revolver to gun down over 40 people] he would still have had to stop to reload and someone would have jumped his ass. Most people on base aren't carrying [weapons], but MPs are and they would have been there in a heartbeat."
You need to find some new experts. A hundred rounds isn't that much using high cap magazines and people that are getting shot at, usually run like hell, rather than duck.
The real problem is that while there are plenty of guns on a military base, the powers that be are stingy handing out Ammo unless there is a specific reason.
Now it does surprise me he hit 40 people.
There are stories of more shooters on the net but wanting to blame it on a Muslim and not let out the story of mutiny in the ranks.
Part of the continuously changing story (typical coverup).
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/20091113/ts_ynews/ynews_ts980
Lots of evidence and indications of a drill/possible false flag operation going on.
http://www.rense.com/general88/trp.htm
Includes a long list of references.
After only a few entries this thread already exhibits how "web-based conspiracy theories" have their genesis:
1. A few self appointed "experts" decide, without any real info or facts beyond what they read or hear in the news or from other "experts" on the web, what must have or could not have happened.
2. These experts then point to the usual uncertainties and inaccuracies (they have eagerly engaged in spreading many of these "theories" already--see #1 above) as proof that a "cover-up has already begun".
3. Each time these "experts" relate their theories, they will continue to stack more "facts", unsupported by anything other than a chain of the theories they have imagined or "read on the web" from other "experts", sufficient to demonstrate to themselves and other conspiracy theorists that only they know the "real story".
4. A guilty party, preferably a shadowy government agency or a secret society, is then chosen by the same "experts" as the evil masterminds who have bamboozled everyone but them.
5. The "experts" who have cleverly outsmarted all those ignorant or "sold-out" officials now can bask in the warm glow gained by unmasking the insidious plotting of (insert your favorite group of villains here).
Wow. Just... wow.
If the official story did not have so many holes and changes there would be no need for theorizing. [waiting]
Here we have a repeat of the Jessica Lynch thing also which was eventually proven to be Government showmanship and lies.
In this one also the cute shot girl was supposed to have shot him and it turns out that it was likely another person that actually did it. They realize that a play on sympathy will get a lot more rage and volunteers for their killing machine. (Make people despise Muslims and don't let repulsion against the war for oil, power and profit at the expense of the people get a boost and most of all, not a hint of mutiny).
If you only believe the official stories, you will be sadly disappointed when reality slaps you in the face.
I assume this guy will be tried in a military court since this happened on a base? If he lives that long. If so we'll never know what really happened. I am doubtful a single shooter could have fired that many rounds but it is possible I supose.
Quote from: peternap on November 14, 2009, 08:47:13 PM
You need to find some new experts. A hundred rounds isn't that much using high cap magazines and people that are getting shot at, usually run like hell, rather than duck.
The real problem is that while there are plenty of guns on a military base, the powers that be are stingy handing out Ammo unless there is a specific reason.
Now it does surprise me he hit 40 people.
I agree with peternap.
And as a Marine Corps Infantryman for 5 yrs. I can say his statement is very true. We marched and ran all over MCB Camp Lejuene. Outside the chowhall, the px ,the base hospital,..... caring our M16A2's. And if someone would have opened fire we couldnt have fired back. We were never aloud to carry or have on our person any live ammo.The only place for live ammo was a live fire range or combat. If you ever got caught with it you'd be looking at a page 11 right up(a written statament of your screwup in your permanent records) or some other clever wayyour unit could come up with to punish you. Even when we went to the rifle range, every round was accounted for.
But saying that, knowing some of the guys I was with, they'd find a way to take him out. with no thought for there own life.It would be the right thing to do.
Darrell
Just to give an example Windpower. Last week I took my wife and a friend of hers shooting. Since I had been busy at the loading bench, I showed them the proper way to shoot someone that was being an annoyance.
The distance was 21 feet because I have hammered the 21 foot rule into them.
She has a 14 round magazine and the spare is the same.
I emptied the first mag in just under two seconds and another two to reload, two more to empty it again.
All shots hit the silhouette and all but three were center mass.
So you can do the math.I shot 28 rounds in 6 seconds and I'm old.
:)
Thank You, Peternap!
[cool]
That's fine, Pete
except silhouettes don't fight back or move or throw chairs or fists at you
So if you were in a room with at least 50 combat trained Army infantrymen (some returning from Iraq) do you think you could have reloaded 4 times, 2 seconds each without one of them tackling you and beating you senseless ?
Sorry Peter, but I'm with the CT folks on this one.
There is no doubt in my mind that George Bush and Dick Cheney were on the grassy knoll next to the processing center also shooting, and that Condoleezza Rice was reloading for them.
If not for the heroic actions of obama and nancy pelosi, this would have been far worse.
I'd explain more, but I have to go put another layer of aluminum foil on my head.
Quote from: Windpower on November 16, 2009, 09:21:23 AM
That's fine, Pete
except silhouettes don't fight back or move or throw chairs or fists at you
So if you were in a room with at least 50 combat trained Army infantrymen (some returning from Iraq) do you think you could have reloaded 4 times, 2 seconds each without one of them tackling you and beating you senseless ?
Can't answer that. My shooting experience is limited to one person. I can explain how he got that many shots off but since I've never shot that many people and doubtfully ever will, I can't say why no one took him down.
I can tell you that every combat veteran I know looks for cover when the shooting starts. I have been shot at numerous times and my first reaction is cover and look it over.
This happened quickly and in an area considered safe and I still don't see any evidence of a conspiracy, There is a lot of butt covering and we sure don't know the whole story, but until I hear something concrete, I'll have to draw on my experience to explain it.
NOW...as far as the silhouettes shooting back. Who there had a workable gun and ammunition to return fire? The local cop is the one who finally shot him.
You can ask the same question about the Tech shooting. Many of the students there are also combat veterans. Just college students in general are tough enough unless they've changed a lot since my days. Everyone hid behind whatever they could and hoped they didn't get hit.
So if you were in a room with at least 50 combat trained Army infantrymen (some returning from Iraq) do you think you could have reloaded 4 times, 2 seconds each without one of them tackling you and beating you senseless ?
Now I did mull that over for a while and assuming I was hell bent on shooting as many people as possible and was shooting at people who had no idea it was coming, regardless of training and experience....the answer is a definite yes.
"Can't answer that. My shooting experience is limited to one person. I can explain how he got that many shots off but since I've never shot that many people and doubtfully ever will, I can't say why no one took him down."
Fair enough.
Exactly my point about combat trained individuals taking cover. How did he manage to hit 13 fatally and another 30 or so
since may were hit numerous times that is better than a 50% hit rate at moving targets some of whom would certainly be coming at him
damned amazing shooting IMO
Now I did mull that over for a while and assuming I was hell bent on shooting as many people as possible and was shooting at people who had no idea it was coming, regardless of training and experience....the answer is a definite yes.
How do you square that with your stated 21 foot rule ?
The 21 foot rule is just the time it takes someone to cover that distance. Weapon out and ready, you can always shoot the person before he reaches you.
Walking up to a group with a plan to shoot as many of them as possible is different. The shooter has his plan ready and the victims have no idea that they are in danger.
If you hold to the idea that all military people live with their senses honed and ready for action, he probably wouldn't have gotten more than ten shots off.
That isn't the case though. First, not all Military personnel are really combat trained. They went through basic but then went on to other jobs. Second, not all combat Vets saw any combat. Third, Even seasoned combat Vets in the New Action Army, are trained to use a firearm of some sort. I doubt they spend much time on hand to hand combat anymore.
But the big thing is that they were taken by surprise in a safe zone where the last thing in their mind was being shot. It takes everyone a few seconds to read a dangerous situation and react. In this case, they were dead or disabled before they could react.
Peternap----some people have watched too many John Wayne movies and combined that with little or no actual military or combat experience----
yes, Wind, I am an Army vet, trained in Armor ( M48; M60, 90mm; 105mm; .50 cal, M60mg, M14, M16, .30cal mg; .45 m1911 .45 cal "greasegun"; M79 grenade launcher----qualified in all of them and reached rank of Captain. A motivated person with semiautos and high capacity clips entering a confined space crowded with unarmed personnel can definitely accomplish what Hasan did----training and instinct will compel virtually anyone to first seek cover in that circumstance---especially in a large crowd of mostly panicked people---sometimes a few individuals will manage to organize offensive action, but not usually before at least quite a few seconds or minutes have passed. Military training seeks to minimize that time span, but it will never eliminate it.
Even the heroic last charge by the passengers on Flight 93 in Pennsylvania, took quite a while to be organized and occurred only after they became aware that they had no other real options-----people can often summon up great courage but it is seldom instantaneous. Unloading clips pointblank into a packed crowd does not require either great skill or great courage----just fanaticism and contempt for life, both theirs and your own.
The response by the two civilian cops was outstanding at Ft Hood. If any of the soldiers had been armed also, I am confident they too would have reacted with equal initiative and results .
My previous posts on this thread were not intended to denigrate anyone----just to caution against jumping to conclusions unsupported by confirmed facts. Conspiracy theorizing can undoubtedly be entertaining but, like it's close cousin, gossip, it can hurt people and damage reputations needlessly.
I would have added my thoughts earlier, but I just rolled back into town. I've been waiting for a CT to come along.
Peter and RW made some excellent points. It seems to me too, that no matter who you are, if you don't have your gun with you especially, your first impulse is to hide, to get to a safe place.
Just because the Hasan guy was a doctor, not a combat soldier, doesn't mean that he could not have a personal interest in firearms and have become very proficient at their use.
Virtually any new story these days is bound to have many points change. That's mainly because today we have this instant reporting of events. We have coverage that begins while the event is unfolding. Back in the old days it took time or the retails to be collected and verified and then finally reported to us. Today they report before verifying.
Oh, I can't forget about Frank. Some good points there too.
Indeed, it turns out he frequented a shooting range (http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/accused-fort-hood-shooter-nidal-hasan-visited-strip/story?id=9090116) in the weeks before the rampage:
QuoteInvestigators told ABC News Hasan became a regular at Stan's Outdoor Shooting Range in Florence, Texas, as the day of the shooting neared. He was last at the range two days before the Nov. 5 rampage, reportedly firing off more than 200 rounds.
A lot of people over look who he targeted. He targeted a treatment facility. A close family friend was actually there receiving treatment during the attack. He won a medal for saving lives and treating to the wounded. He was in the front row during the president's veteran's day speech. We are all very proud of him.
Almost no one was armed. Many of the victims were psychologists, doctors, nurses, and patients. Many even non-military personnel. He attacked the sick, wounded, and vulnerable. His accomplishment of getting off 100 rounds was because of his extreme act of cowardice.
With such a crowded room I would suspect the story to have differing views.
I can watch a car accident happen and have the view that the driver for no reason slammed on his brakes and the person behind him could not stop. I might even suspect the driver did this intentionally because I saw no reason for this sudden stop. However a person on the other side of the street may have a broader view. They saw a child's ball bouncing out to the street. From that view point the driver slammed on his breaks because of the ball and caused the person behind him to slam into him. Now from the drivers perspective he saw something coming out in front of his car, it was possibly so quick he just reacted, maybe a kid or a dog? He instinctively slammed on his brakes, not wanting to hit a something, especially a child.
It is like the four Gospels. Some ask why four? Because all though they all experienced being with Christ, they all saw the things they saw from their view. Story is the same, nothing changed but how it was seen. From a different view point.
End result, a nutcase went into FT Hood and did something horrible. I do not suspect to have a 100 people give me the same exact story, but they would all agree a nutcase came in shot up the place and killed people.
I shouldn't joke about this sort of thing. It is inappropriate and I apologize.
When I hear about shootings like this, I am often more amazed that the number killed seems small.
This was not a compulsive act. It was well thought out by a fairly educated person, who was more than likely capable of figuring out the best way to inflict the most damage.
I know very little about the details of the shooting, and would like to know more about this myself.
In a very crowded area, I would guess that he did not just wade into the middle and start shooting. That would have exposed him to being subdued very quickly. I would bet that he got behind a desk or reception area counter... enough to keep persons from very easily being able to reach him. It does not take much to slow a person down, and having firepower when others had none would dissuade anyone from trying to reach him. A little cover goes a long way. Once established behind some physical cover, any halfway decent shooter using a braced position could do a lot of damage in a hurry. Probably more effective if he was up on some stairs in terms of being able to see the room better.
Does anyone know the details?
The Washington Post has published the presentation given to senior Army doctors in June 2007 by alleged Fort Hood killer Nidal Malik Hasan. Instead of lecturing about a medical subject as expected, Hasan recited a litany of standard justifications for militant Islam. It's amazing (and not in a good way) that this episode didn't prompt a serious investigation; Hasan wasn't exactly hiding his ideology.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/gallery/2009/11/10/GA2009111000920.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/gallery/2009/11/10/GA2009111000920.html)
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/11/05/texas.fort.hood.witnesses/
Surviving Fort Hood shooting suspect arrested at golf course, officer says
November 5, 2009 6:34 p.m. EST
STORY HIGHLIGHTS
Senior officer tells CNN he saw one of the surviving suspects in base shooting arrested
The suspect was arrested at a golf course 2.5 miles from the installation
MPs ordered soldier to lie on ground and open his uniform, officer says
Man was surrounded for 25-30 minutes, then taken away
RELATED TOPICS
Fort Hood
Shootings
U.S. Armed Forces
(CNN) -- A senior officer who was playing golf Thursday near Fort Hood, Texas, told CNN he witnessed the arrest of one of the two surviving suspects of the shooting at the Army installation.
Shortly after the shooting, the officer said, military police told him to clear the course and he saw other MPs surround the building that held the golf carts, he said.
The senior officer said he ducked into a nearby house for cover as 30 to 40 cars carrying MPs approached.
He said he saw a soldier in battle-dress uniform, his hands in the air. The MPs ordered him to lie on the ground and open his uniform, presumably to ensure he was not carrying explosives, the senior officer said.
He said an MP told him that authorities considered the man to be a suspect in the shootings after having overheard the man say he was with the shooter.
The man was surrounded for 25 to 30 minutes, until a convoy of vehicles arrived, led by a Ford Crown Victoria and carrying men in suits, and he was taken away, the senior officer said.
The golf course is about 2.5 miles from Fort Hood, the officer told CNN.
Thanks Windpower. This agrees with some of the info I heard earlier. I saved a copy of the page in case this CNN article gets disappeared.
I dont know anything about how he got off 100 rounds, and do not have anything to offer on that other than speculation.
But - this piece doesn't make sense to me. Two articles out today, neither of them make sense to me given the context.
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/capitol-briefing/2009/11/fort_hood_hearing_wont_include.html
QuoteWhite House won't provide witnesses for Fort Hood hearing
By Ben Pershing
The first public congressional hearing on the Fort Hood attack will not include testimony from any current federal law enforcement, military or intelligence officials because the Obama administration "declined to provide any" such witnesses, according to a Senate committee source.
The Senate Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee has released the witness list for its hearing "The Fort Hood Attack: A Preliminary Assessment," scheduled for Thursday at 10 a.m. ET. The list includes four experts on terrorism and intelligence issues: retired Gen. Jack Keane, the former U.S. Army vice chief of staff; Brian Jenkins, a senior advisor at the Rand Corp.; Mitchell Silber, the director of analysis for the New York City Police Department's Intelligence Division; and Juan Zarate, a senior advisor for the Transnational Threats Project at the Center for Strategic and International Studies.
But the list does not include anyone actively involved in investigating the Fort Hood attack, or anyone who might have been responsible for decisions made by various government agencies before the attack about whether to investigate the shooting suspect, Nidal Hasan. The Senate committee source said HSGAC Chairman Joe Lieberman (I-Conn.) had hoped to have witnesses from the FBI and the U.S. Army, but was rebuffed in his requests.
Asked for comment Monday, White House spokesman Tommy Vietor said: "Tomorrow morning, an inter-agency briefing team will go to the Hill to brief House and Senate leaders and committee chairs and ranking members. This is the latest in a series of engagements with the Hill since the horrific events at Fort Hood, and further evidence of the Administration's commitment to appropriately inform Congress without interfering in the prosecution of this case."
Vietor did not address the specific question of why witnesses would not be provided for Thursday's hearing.
President Obama has already ordered a federal review of the circumstances that led up to the Fort Hood attack, and how government agencies handled intelligence related to Hasan. But in his weekly radio and Internet address Saturday, Obama urged caution on Capitol Hill.
"I know there will also be inquiries by Congress, and there should," Obama said. "But all of us should resist the temptation to turn this tragic event into the political theater that sometimes dominates the discussion here in Washington. The stakes are far too high."
While most lawmakers have said they will wait for the results of the Fort Hood criminal investigation and Obama's announced review before rendering judgment, some have already been critical of the Obama administration's handling of both the prelude to the attack and its aftermath. Rep. Peter Hoekstra (Mich.), the ranking Republican on the House Intelligence Committee, has been particularly sharp in his criticism.
Lieberman, for his part, has said the Fort Hood attack appeared to be the work of a "self-radicalized, home-grown terrorist," and he and Sen. Susan Collins (Maine), the panel's top Republican, have vowed to cooperate with the administration if it returns the favor.
"To carry out our investigation, Congress will require the prompt and full cooperation of the Executive Branch -- cooperation that must start as soon as possible," Lieberman and Collins said Saturday. "We totally agree with the President that this inquiry must not turn into 'political theater' and it will not."
Separately, a closed-door Senate Armed Services Committee briefing on the status of the Fort Hood investigation has been postponed, after initially being scheduled for Monday afternoon. That session was scheduled to feature top officials, including Army Secretary John McHugh and Arrny Chief of Staff Gen. George Casey. Committee aides aid the session was postponed only to assure that everyone Senators wanted to hear from could attend, and would likely be rescheduled for later this week.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/11/17/pentagon-fort-hood-probe-review-missed-red-flags/?test=latestnews
QuoteUpdated November 17, 2009
Obama National Security Team Will Coordinate Congress' Briefings on Ft. Hood
by FOXNews.com
Geoff Morrell, a Pentagon spokesman, said NSC will put together a team that will include representatives from the Army, Department of Defense, FBI, and National Counter-Terrorism Center.
President Obama's National Security Council has taken control of all the informational briefings on the Fort Hood shooting and ordered that congressional leaders along with the chairmen and top Republicans on the relevant committees receive the briefings first, a key Democratic lawmaker said Tuesday.
White House spokesman Tommy Vietor said "the NSC is playing a coordinating role for briefers -- not taking on all the briefings directly." He added that is a role that NSC would normally play on such issues.
"I have been told that the director of the National Intelligence is still committed to providing the full membership a briefing on the activities within the jurisdiction of this committee," Rep. Silvestre Reyes, D-Texas, chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, said in a written statement.
"I believe that this will occur, and I will push to schedule a briefing before the end of this week," he added.
There was a briefing Tuesday morning for nine lawmakers, including House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, Fox News has learned.
Geoff Morrell, a Pentagon spokesman, said NSC will put together a team that will include representatives from the Army, Department of Defense, FBI, and National Counter-Terrorism Center.
In an interview with Fox News, Reyes said Congress should wait to "find out all of the facts" before launching a full-blown investigation.
But on Tuesday, Rep. Pete Hoekstra, the top Republican on the House Intelligence Committee, sent Pelosi a letter, signed by all Republican members of the panel, requesting an investigation.
"We strongly disagree with the suggestion that Congress should abdicate its Constitutional oversight and fact-finding responsibilities in this regard," the letter read, adding that evidence shows that oversight in no way interferes with an ongoing criminal prosecution.
"The future security of over 300 million Americans is far more pressing than after-the-fact investigation of one man," the letter said.
Meanwhile, the Pentagon is planning to investigate its procedures in the wake of the Fort Hood massacre, a probe that will be taken up either by the Department of Defense or the Army, a Pentagon spokesman told Fox News Tuesday.
Panels would be convened by either the Army or larger Defense Department to conduct a broad examination beyond the particulars of Army psychiatrist Nidal Malik Hasan and into how all the U.S. military services keep a watch on potential problems in their ranks, senior military officials said.
However, Morrell said it's too early to say whether a department-wide panel would supercede an Army investigation, though that is something being considered in the planning process. The possible probes are still in the planning stages.
Defense Secretary Robert Gates wants a unified probe that hits all corners of the Pentagon, Morrell said.
He told Fox News that it's unlikely that both the DoD and the Army would investigate.
"If there are issues larger than one service, it would make sense to have a wider probe of this," he said. "We suspect there are larger issues."
The investigation would consider some questions Morrell described as immediate, although he would not be specific, and some he said will take longer to frame and sort through.
Another official said there will be a fast look at whether the military has missed red flags that might signal there are other potentially dangerous service members out there.
"A tragedy like this certainly gives this institution an opportunity to reflect on whether we are doing everything that we can and should to prevent something like this from happening," said Defense Department spokesman Bryan Whitman. He said Gates has not made any decision on a defense-wide review.
Morrell said there has been no decision on the structure, time line or staffing for a review.
"He's trying to come to a resolution of this as quickly as possible, but this has not been nailed down quite yet," Morrell said of Gates.
Hasan, an Army major, is accused of killing 13 people in the Nov. 5 shooting rampage at the Texas base.
Army Chief of Staff Gen. George Casey had said earlier that the service would take a hard look at itself following the Nov. 5 shooting.
Any new review would be have to be careful not to interfere with the continuing criminal investigation, defense officials said. And so it could look at things outside that realm such as personnel policy and practices and whether there are adequate health services for troubled troops, one official said.
Two military officials said Tuesday that Casey is looking at forming an investigative panel that would consider Hasan's career development and at what point someone should have or might have raised an alarm, one of the officials said.
The proposed Army probe would focus on Hasan's six years at Washington's Walter Reed Medical Center, where he worked as a psychiatrist before he was transferred to Fort Hood in July, an official said.
The doctors who oversaw Hasan's medical training had discussed at a meeting concerns about Hasan's overly zealous religious views and strange behavior months before the attack, a military official told The Associated Press last week. Hasan also was characterized as a mediocre student and lazy worker, but the doctors saw no evidence that he was violent or a threat. The military official spoke on condition of anonymity because the official was not authorized to speak publicly about the meeting.
The FBI learned late last year of Hasan's repeated contact with a radical Muslim cleric in Yemen who encouraged Muslims to kill U.S. troops in Iraq. President Barack Obama already has ordered a review of all intelligence related to Hasan and whether the information was properly shared and acted upon within government agencies.
Fox News' Justin Fishel and Steve Centanni and The Associated Press contributed to this report.
StinkerBell
QuoteIt is like the four Gospels. Some ask why four? Because all though they all experienced being with Christ,
I don't mean to hi-jack, but Luke, for one, wasn't an eye witness, wasn't "with Chirst".
The bible scholar in me wouldn't let it pass.
As far as the Ft. Hood shooting is concerned, I too am surprised that there were not more dead.
Also, a number of bullets likely injured more than one person. My grandmother once killed two chickens with one shot from a .22 rifle.
On the other hand, round count doesn't always result in multiple deaths. Remember the Holliwood bank shoot out a number of years ago? Very large round count, very few dead and injured.
Hmmmmm......
I am a veteran. I severed in the Light Armored Vehicle/Infantry/Recon Battalion at Camp LaJuene from 1986 to 1991 and left after serving in Desert Shield/Storm. I was a scout for a few years (means I ran around in the woods a lot and shot a lot) and was a MIMMS Clerk for part of the time (Marine Corps Integrated Maintenance Management Systems). My MOS (Military Occupational Specialty) was 2147 -- Light Armored Vehicle Repair.
During my 5+ years in the Marine Corps I earned 5 Rifle Expert Awards, Pistol Expert Award (was named 'Annie Oakley' of the range that day) and qualified on the first (for that time) Marine Corps Combat Rifle Range.
I was part of the 24th MEU SOC and traveled extensively but I was not 'special forces, force recon, delta force' etc. I am a Marine.
Later I served in the Army as a 31F (Network Switching Systems) and qualified expert a few more times. In fact, I once qualified expert with the M16A2 while the front site post was loose and moving.
I am not a special operative and that is important to my point.
As to the question could someone get off hundreds of rounds from two pistols while people were in close proximity the answer is a definitive yes.
If this person could shoot -- like I can -- and practiced a little they could load up several 15 round magazines for the 9MM and learn to reload one handed (yes). With the .357 revolver as backup they could indeed shoot a few rounds while reloading one handed to keep heads down and people running or scared.
Sadly, those who do not learn about weapons are often mislead by the media. The high cap magazines aren't even needed. My Kimber Custom TLEII comes with a 7 round magazine and I can fire it accurately and quickly at close range targets so fast that you wouldn't even know what was going on -- I could reload it with two hands (not holding the revolver) quickly enough to continue shooting and do so over and over again.
If I only had 7 round magazines I could get off 200-300 rounds in a matter of a minute or three -- seriously.
When I go to the range I take my time and try to work on accuracy and control. I shoot 300 rounds in about 10 minutes. Then shoot another 100 rounds from the single action revolver in another 15 minutes or so.
I could shoot a thousand rounds in the time it takes the police to respond and you would not want to try to rush me.
Subduing a shooter in full swing is suicide -- when they are reloading, with a revolver handy it is still suicide.
Would I do it? YES! But I would probably not live to tell you why I tried.
Does this make sense?
Consider this:
(https://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af102/emcvay/th_Eriksbirthday036.jpg) (https://s998.photobucket.com/albums/af102/emcvay/?action=view¤t=Eriksbirthday036.flv)
This is 20 rounds of .308 from an M1A -- that 20 rounds would be far more devastating then a 9MM so bear that in mind.
Now consider that I could shoot .45 colt almost that fast out of an old lever gun too.
So, folks, sadly yes I think he could have shot 100's of rounds before anyone could do anything and I have yet to talk about 30 round extended magazines!
But, and here is the final but -- this is not a reason to ban guns but rather a reason to let soldiers arm themselves. Had 10% of those soldiers had side arms then we would have heard about how this madman came out shooting and died shortly thereafter.
That is the answer and the founding fathers knew it.
OlJarhead.
oljarhead, you and I have alot in common.I served from 86' to 91' (5 yrs) and was in desort storm with 2/2 ,weapons co. in the 24th MEU in Desert storm/ shield.
Get some!
Darrell
Quote from: devildog on November 18, 2009, 07:06:29 PM
oljarhead, you and I have alot in common.I served from 86' to 91' (5 yrs) and was in desort storm with 2/2 ,weapons co. in the 24th MEU in Desert storm/ shield.
Get some!
Darrell
We were there together then :) Semper Fi brother!
When did you go in? I went in May of 86. Mike Co plt 3050 at San Diego. Arrived at LeJuene on Holloween '86.
Left in May of 91 on Term leave.
I went to boot camp at Paris Island . 28may86 -29may91. I got back stateside from Kuwait with 15 days left,almost got extended. I served most of my time with Golf Co. 2/4 as an 0351 . I got out so soon after we got back, that my records (DD214) doesnt show anything about me being over there. And a few years back I tried to get it straightened out , and the person said they cant find my records(SRB).I keep saying Im going to do something about it, but its been almost 18 yrs.
Quote from: devildog on November 18, 2009, 08:39:53 PM
I went to boot camp at Paris Island . 28may86 -29may91. I got back stateside from Kuwait with 15 days left,almost got extended. I served most of my time with Golf Co. 2/4 as an 0351 . I got out so soon after we got back, that my records (DD214) doesnt show anything about me being over there. And a few years back I tried to get it straightened out , and the person said they cant find my records(SRB).I keep saying Im going to do something about it, but its been almost 18 yrs.
I was on delayed entry and went in May 11th 1986. I got out May something -- don't recall -- but didn't 'officially; get out until July '91 (and then IRR of course). I was one of those 'extension at the courtesy of the Government' types ;) d*
I got out with the SWA Ribbon in my DD214 but very little else and had to send for a DD215 to correct missing items. Then went into the Army in 1996 (to learn something other then how to shoot *snicker*) and got out in August of '99.
0351 huh? Machine Gunner right?
Iwas a dragon gunner with the weapons co. in kuwait, and a S.M.A.W gunner(shoulder fired multi-purpose assault weapon, Aka bunker buster) with 2/4. It is an 83mm rocket.Penetrates 1" of steel.It had a small rifle on the side that shot marker bullets ,and then you lay the hammer down and let the rocket fly.
I regret now not doing another MOS, but only because Im 41 and have no retirement and do hard labor for a living. I wanted to reinlist back then( my exwife didnt) but clinton was cutting back on the military. and I didnt want to dig and sleep in holes for another 4 yrs.
By the way what is the SWA ribbon? I know I am supposed to get a combat action, kuwaiti freedom and something else
So who thinks they had the most interesting MOS?
You guys now prove that this site is full of illiterates - Jarheads!! I plead guilty as well. I served in 3/6 and was in from '83 - '87. I was a battery operated grunt, assigned as the company radio man to Kilo Company. I did the WestPac tour and the Med float as well. We were supposed to gain retribution for our brothers killed in the barracks bombing (I was in boot camp at PI when that happened) but we were never allowed to. We circled Cyprus for many weeks, but were never allowed to go in to Lebanon and get some. Both of my kids are now serving- a son in the Army and a daughter in the Air Force. Semper Fi to all leathernecks here and everywhere!
Quote from: devildog on November 18, 2009, 09:29:57 PM
Iwas a dragon gunner with the weapons co. in kuwait, and a S.M.A.W gunner(shoulder fired multi-purpose assault weapon, Aka bunker buster) with 2/4. It is an 83mm rocket.Penetrates 1" of steel.It had a small rifle on the side that shot marker bullets ,and then you lay the hammer down and let the rocket fly.
I regret now not doing another MOS, but only because Im 41 and have no retirement and do hard labor for a living. I wanted to reinlist back then( my exwife didnt) but clinton was cutting back on the military. and I didnt want to dig and sleep in holes for another 4 yrs.
For some reason I always think 0351 is a Machine Gunner...hmmm....
I did 0313 (LAV crew), 2147 (LAV repair), 0411 (MIMMs) as well as Marksmanship Instructor and probably a few others ;)
The SWA is South West Asia Services medal, also you get the 'Kuwaiti Liberation Medal - Kuwait' and the 'Kuwaiti Liberation Medal - Saudi Arabia (reported 24 carrot gold country in the middle -- but probably not) and of course if returned fire then the Combat Action Ribbon.
Amen to returning for another MOS. That's why I did the Army -- to get an MOS I could turn into a job -- shooters have a hard time finding work these days.
I was with Bravo 2nd LAV BN in the Med in 1988/89 -- we were the first LAV Bn to cruise the med and went with the Magnificent Bastards :) BLT 2/4 OOOORAH!
Went to the Gulf with 24th MEU and we were 2nd LAI BN then.
Now it's 2nd LAR Battalion -- I guess they finally figured it out.
I received this email from a friend this morning...
>> Dear Family & Friends,
>
> Thank you for your thoughts & prayers for us & the Ft. Hood community,
> a community that’s been deeply wounded both physically & spiritually.
> The past day & a ½ have been very challenging. I write to share my
> somewhat-insider perspective on the events as you process these events.
> Please know these have been humbling hrs for me, & I write not to
> glamorize myself or this tragedy.
>
> At about 1:40 pm local time Thurs., I learned that a mass casualty
> situation was evolving at Ft. Hood. I was working in a trailer
> adjacent to the hospital. The only info I had was that 1 or more
> gunmen had opened fire at an SRP site, a processing facility where
> many soldiers pass thru daily. Knowing the high density of soldiers at
> the SRP site, I braced myself mentally for the possibility of a large
> # of casualties. Upon exiting the trailer, I immediately heard sirens
> & saw several ambulances driving up to the ER bays, dropping off
> casualties, & turning around to pick up more. I ran up to the hospital.
>
> The hospital has pre-designated areas for personnel to report in the
> case of a mass casualty/disaster. Ours is the family medicine clinic,
> located on the 1st floor of the hospital, about 100’ from the ER. All
> casualties were going initially to the ER, where they were quickly
> triaged & dispersed from there to the OR, our clinic, or elsewhere.
> There were already casualties being treated when I got to the clinic.
> We broke quickly into teams, w/ 1 or more docs & nurses w/ each
> patient. All the patients had bullet wounds—not a common site in a family medicine clinic.
> Fortunately, several of the staff had extensive trauma experience from
> prior deployments. Initially there was no morphine available, so the
> halls were filed w/ shouts of pain as the patients were examined.
>
> My 1st patient was a young 2nd Lt. Her uniform trousers were cut
> almost completely off, a std. practice during trauma eval, designed to
> avoid missing any injuries. A bullet hole can be small, & 1 injury can
> easily distract from others. The less immediately obvious wound can
> become deadly if not appreciated on the initial assessment. I’d never
> treated a patient w/ a gunshot wound before Thurs. Thankfully, the Army sends us all to Ft.
> Sam Houston to an ATLS (Advanced Trauma Life Support) course, a course
> designed exactly for this setting, where a non-trauma-surgeon is
> evaluating & stabilizing a trauma victim.
>
> When we asked the 2nd Lt. what happened & she was able to tell a
> sensible story in complete sentences, I knew that for the moment her
> airway, breathing, & circulation were intact. She had a tourniquet &
> some bright red blood on her left thigh, & said the shooter had looked
> her in the eye, then shot her in the leg. "He could have shot me in
> the head, but he didn't." I left the tourniquet in place, since it
> seemed to be working fine. I swept my arm under her body, looking for
> any blood when I pulled it out. Her vital signs were good. Her heart &
> lungs sounded good. She had IV access w/ fluids running. She had no
> pain other than her leg where she was wounded, & she had good pulses &
> sensation in that foot, all encouraging signs. We gave her some
> morphine, removed the dressing & saw an entry wound, but no exit wound
> was visible. We got ready to take her to get x-rays.
>
> Then, here comes the cavalry—the orthopedic surgeons arrived! They
> quickly examined the 2nd Lt., agreed she was stable, & moved on.
> X-rays showed a bullet near her hip w/ no fractures. Much later in the
> night, after reviewing the patient's x-rays w/ ortho again, she was
> released to go home w/ instructions to come back to our clinic in the morning for a re-check.
> A couple ER physicians came thru to offer their help. Not satisfied at
> saving lives in their own area, they offered their expertise to us as
> well. We were glad to have it.
>
> We moved from patient to patient, making sure everyone was accounted
> for & getting the appropriate treatment, & making sure that their
> loved ones were contacted to know that they were safe. Soldiers barely
> out of hi school were dying in the ER. A new, young mother died on the
> OR table. A family medicine intern w/ a baby of her own was there.
> There was no time to pause or grieve.
>
> Based on the #s you’ve heard, the vast majority of victims were
> treated at our hospital, but the flow of patients eventually abated. I
> was hearing little bits & pieces of what had happened; there were
> conflicting reports on the # of soldiers killed, the # of shooters, &
> the # of locations. A patient told me that the shooter, a Major, a
> field-grade officer in uniform, had called everyone to attn. before
> opening fire.
>
> Then we heard the unthinkable, that this was indeed an Army officer,
> but worse, a doctor, entrusted to heal, but causing great harm
> instead. This man had on occasion worked at the hospital, covering on weekends.
> Sometimes the family medicine inpatient service admits patients that
> have intentionally overdosed or are drunk & saying they want to harm
> themselves. Once these types of patients are cleared medically, they
> get psychiatric evals to determine if they’re safe to go home. 1 of
> the family medicine staff physicians, Dr. K., had consulted this
> psychiatrist (the
> shooter) on such a patient only 2 wk. ago.
>
> At hearing who the shooter was, Dr. K. was besieged w/ guilt, saying
> she knew he wasn't quite right, that he seemed depressed, that she
> could’ve done something. She broke down in sobs in the middle of the
> clinic. A couple of us sat her down & listened. My mentor, a female Major & West Pt.
> grad, hugged her & let her cry. It was probably the 1st hug she'd had
> since her husband deployed to Iraq in Sept. They got 10 days notice.
>
> I’ve never been prouder of our clinic. There wasn't a nurse in the
> clinic that wouldn't run to the other side of the hospital to get
> something if a patient needed it. The cleaning lady was unreal. I
> thought some of that blood would never come off, & by the time she was
> done, I would've eaten dinner off those tables.
>
> Things were letting up in our area, so we went to other floors of the
> hospital, helping do things like write admission orders for patients
> so their meds could be brought up from the Rx. The general surgeons
> were doing great work. They were cutting open chests & bellies &
> battling to repair the damage done by the bullets. They mostly
> succeeded, doing the work of specialists in cardiothoracic & vascular
> surgery, simply because they were our best hope.
>
> My fellow residents & I did what we could to help; most of us left
> around
> 9
> pm, simply because there wasn't anything else to do. I was so proud of
> those guys & their families; they would’ve stayed the whole night if
> there was a way they could help out. A good friend of mine stayed to
> carry the Internal Medicine on-call pager. I went home to Katie, then
> went back around 2 am to take the pager back from him. No matter—no 1
> was going to the ER; so there were no admissions. I think they
> thought, "You know, I'm not shot, I think I'll be okay." I did what I
> could to help out in the ICU.
>
> Another patient died in the time I was at home, a clean-cut
> 21-yr.-old. He had extensive chest & abdominal wounds, the worst to
> his aorta. When he arrived to the ICU from the OR, he had what
> surgeon's call the "unhappy triad" of hypothermia (his rectal
> temperature was 88 degrees), acidosis, & coagulopathy. It’s rare to
> survive after reaching that pt. He got 50 units of blood. Hospital
> workers were donating their blood. He was getting 4 IV meds to raise
> his blood pressure. He went back to the OR. He had cardiopulmonary
> arrest, was successfully resuscitated once, but not the 2nd time. They
> gave him everything they had, even when it was probably futile,
> because what else can you do but everything? This is a kid who’ll
> never know what it's like to fall in love & marry, to have children, to grow old. There’s no tomorrow for him.
>
> There was another young 20-yr.-old private w/ a bullet in his chest,
> only it inexplicably stopped at his sternum, & 1 in his back, only it
> never made it past the muscle. When I saw him up on the wards, all he
> was worried about was when he could go downstairs & smoke. A little
> walking miracle w/ a pack-a-day habit, no clue how lucky he was &, for
> the moment, some extra metal in him.
>
> Friday, there were a lot of generals at our little hospital. They
> visited every single injured soldier. George W. Bush, the former
> president, visited the hospital in the evening. Say what you will
> about his politics, but that man was here, & that counts for a lot in my book.
>
> Keep everyone at Ft. Hood in your prayers, especially the families of
> the fallen. There aren’t words to describe how sad/tragic this is. As
> a Christian, it’s difficult to understand & hard to accept. Abstract
> ideas about the effects of sin on creation, the depravity of mankind
> as a whole, & the presence of evil in the world give way to the
> reality that mothers will bury their sons & daughters in the days
> ahead, & everyone knows that’s not the way it's supposed to be.
>
> If I can offer you hope in the midst of this darkness, it’s that I’ve
> seen all around me in these troubling hrs, people realizing their
> potential to do good & to come together in unity to sacrifice for
> others. We as Christians must always remember that our God, not
> willing to allow us to suffer alone, took the form of a man & suffers
> along w/ us. When His friend Lazarus died, John 11:35 tells us that,
> like us, Jesus wept, & I know He still weeps along w/ us tonight.
>
> God bless you all, & we love you,
> Luke & Katie
Thanks NM!
Im really sorry to get this thread off topic. but....
stinkerbell,I dont know if my MOS was interesting,but it was definetly challenging. We were always training for combat and we only got 3 days worth during desert storm,and most of them gave up. I know,I know I should be happy it could have been terrible. and for some it was/is. But thats the reason we join the Infantry.I was origanally supposed to be a mechanic, but decided to punish myself.
woodsrule, Semper Fi to you as well. My 19yr old is a Lcpl. serving at Miramar(?) in California as a hydrolics mech. Was 3/6 at Camp Geiger?
oljarhead,0311 rifleman
0331 machinegunner
0341 mortarman
0351 anti tank
Darrell
Thanks for posting the e-mail, Frank.
I received this third hand, and thought it was a very powerfully written summary.
-f-
This does not conflict with anything in your posting but adds more info and observations from different and earlier reports. I don't think it has been posted yet - sorry if it has - not enough time to look through everything. Not taking either side - just adding more info to consider.
http://web.me.com/donnicoloff/directlightproductions.com/Articles/Entries/2009/11/16_Entry_1.html
http://www.military.com/forums/0,15240,130883,00.html (http://www.military.com/forums/0,15240,130883,00.html)
I can't go with that one, Raindog. That is pretty much saying to ignore everything to the contrary written by an obvious military insider. I say questioning the events and investigating the inconsistencies is the only way to keep them honest.
If there is an agenda here it is to downplay the growing disagreement with the war in Afghanistan and Iraq as well as fuel the dislike of Muslims. That will tend to skew the reports from inside the Military. It is not likely that the dissent by the other original reported shooters was manufactured when that agenda is considered. It is necessary for them to clean up the story.
The real danger to ourselves and our families is if we never question them and we believe the official stories without doing our utmost to find out if what they are telling us is true.
Since they control the official news that is released, the only other outlets are other observers.
An event of this magnitude will garner a considerable amount of round table meetings, story fixing, agreement on how events happened etc. in the brass. My covert ops friend said he has been in similar situations. He said, Don't trust them. He has assisted them in taking out other world leaders and changing the shape of the worlds power structure.
The email Frank posted, while true and giving a slice of the picture still does not cover anything that may have been covered up or suppressed.
Quote from: glenn kangiser on November 20, 2009, 01:19:48 AM
http://web.me.com/donnicoloff/directlightproductions.com/Articles/Entries/2009/11/16_Entry_1.html
OMG.... I needed that. Thanks.
rofl
Hey Devil Dog,
3/6 was at Lejeune. I did go to Geiger for Morse code school though (2533) I don't think they use morse code anymore, but I used it while I was on the USS Inchon and we also used semaphore flags. We were taught the use of light guns for morse code and the semaphore flags for naval protocol. Give my best to your boy - even though he's a flyboy! Must have scored higher on the ASVAB then we did [rofl2]
Quote from: Woodsrule on November 20, 2009, 01:22:41 PM
Hey Devil Dog,
3/6 was at Lejeune. I did go to Geiger for Morse code school though (2533) I don't think they use morse code anymore, but I used it while I was on the USS Inchon and we also used semaphore flags. We were taught the use of light guns for morse code and the semaphore flags for naval protocol. Give my best to your boy - even though he's a flyboy! Must have scored higher on the ASVAB then we did [rofl2]
I think I remember those guys...were quite a few units at LeJuene actually...some 40,000 marines I beleive (at least).
Small word hey brothers!? My daughter was born at the Naval Hospital there....then some 20 years later returned as a Navy Corpsman. She's now off in Italy for a couple years but has been seeing a Corpsman who is with the fleet....silly girl doesn't she know Marines and Fleet Corpsman are all trouble? *chuckle* Guess she didn't learn.
Anyway, good kid and I'm proud of her -- and she's just another generation of a long line of Military folks in my family. My Dad and Uncle were both Marines and their Dad was with the Flying Tigers in China (I beleive) and their Step Dad was with the Army Intelligence in the Pacific...before that were others and we've traced it back to the Civil war where Manley's fought on both sides -- figures with us Irish huh?
Semper Fi
Erik
On the news today, a service member who was shot at Ft Hood said he thought at first it was a drill exercise.
So when the major got up on a desk and started yelling he just did not really truly think it was more then an exercise on how to respond. I think this would explain why some just did not react at first and maybe why the major was successful at shooting so many people and shooting all those rounds.
Quote from: NM_Shooter on November 20, 2009, 12:32:19 PM
Quote from: glenn kangiser on November 20, 2009, 01:19:48 AM
http://web.me.com/donnicoloff/directlightproductions.com/Articles/Entries/2009/11/16_Entry_1.html
OMG.... I needed that. Thanks.
rofl
Thanks, Frank. I knew I could count on you for support. :)
Quote from: StinkerBell on November 20, 2009, 04:35:55 PM
On the news today, a service member who was shot at Ft Hood said he thought at first it was a drill exercise.
So when the major got up on a desk and started yelling he just did not really truly think it was more then an exercise on how to respond. I think this would explain why some just did not react at first and maybe why the major was successful at shooting so many people and shooting all those rounds.
Interesting.
9/11 and 7/7 (GB) both had drill exercises running at the same time too (scheduled at the same time the events happened) .