I'm finally approaching the subfloor installation on the yurt. I've been using OSI ProSeries 450 SF (http://www.osiproseries.com/Products.aspx?ID=sf-450-heavy-duty-sub-floor-contruction-adhesive) in the quart tubes with good results, but I've got enough arthritis that I'm frankly not looking forward to dispensing 35-40 tubes on this project with my hand powered gun. I've also been looking at an air powered gun (http://www.albioneng.com/products/Product.asp?ID=76), but can't find any reviews from actual users of that product, either. Has anyone actually owned/used one of these?
As an alternative, Dow Chemical Enerbond SF (http://www.dowmarketing.com/web/PDFs/Enerfoam_Enerbond/69800843_EBSF.pdf) looks to be much easier to install, adequate for the task, and maybe more efficient. Comments/thoughts/opinions would be appreciated!
I like the heavy duty polyurethane for most applications, and find that if I allow the tube to heat in the sun before application, it dispenses easier.
I'm building a 1700 sf house and also used the OSI 450 adhesive is quart size tubes. I used a lot of subfloor adhesive (and screws, 25 per 4x8 piece), but overall only needed maybe 4 or 5 tubes; a doable size job for a hand powered caulk gun. How are you coming up with 35-40 tubes needed unless this is a BIG yurt?
The subfloor has been in for almost a year now and the adhesive has worked well.
You can get battery powered dispenser guns, Harbor Freight and Lowes both have them, about $35.and make life a whole lot easier.
...Paul
Thanks to all for the replies!
N74, there are about 1200 feet of joist, rim joist, and blocking that the subfloor(1937 sq') will be fastened to. The pic below was taken a couple weeks ago.
(https://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e46/51harry/Floor/MVC-008F1.jpg)
My plans call for a continuous bead under each row of fasteners, plus a 3/16" bead in all panel edge grooves, in order to create the best possible diaphram and eliminate squeaks in the floor. Every other joist will have two rows of fasteners, and they say you get 86' with a 1/4" bead or 38' with a 3/8" bead. Judging by that and how much we used installing the rim joists, it looks like 35-40 quart tubes to get 'er done.
Our nailing/fastener schedule is 6" perimeter, 12" field. I haven't made up my mind whether to go with ringshank nails or screws as of yet. With all that glue, would screws really improve the job that much over ringshanks or hot dipped galvanized nails? Thoughts?
I doubt you's see much, if any, improvement in using screws over ring shank nails when you are also using construction adhesive. Ring shank nails do not want to come out. Hot dipped galvies stick well as well due to their rough coating; but means hand hammering, right?
I wonder about the advisability/necessity of applying the adhesive to the T&G groove. Is there a danger of not being able to squeeze out any excess when pushing the panels edges together?
If I had that much adhesive or caulking to lay I'd get an electric gun unless I could space out the work over a period of time like I did. Smaller project for me as well.
Quote from: MountainDon on July 14, 2009, 02:25:47 PM
I wonder about the advisability/necessity of applying the adhesive to the T&G groove. Is there a danger of not being able to squeeze out any excess when pushing the panels edges together?
Good question. The plans are engineered, and the glue in the groove is in the engineer's notes. We'll have to pay close attention to how things fit until we can see just what happens when we bring the panels together.
I just calculated how many linear feet of floorjoist I had to glue; it came in at about 1100 (includes rim joists and blocking). Still, I got all that out of maybe five tubes, six tubes max. I used a 1/4" bead too and still got almost 200 linear feet per tube.
Oh well, if you come in less than 35 or 40 tubes, I'm sure you can take the extra tubes back.
I too am curious as to how you're going to get the tongues to slide into the grooves if they have adhesive in there already. Be sure and post a response to describe how that worked out. Inquiring minds want to know.
Good luck with it.
I dunno, sounds like an engineer on glue and crack :D
I've got arthur in the hands too. We tried an air gun one time, don't remember which. The problem with it was that when you released the trigger it did not dump the air so there was still pressure on the tube. We had to unplug the gun to dump the air. Was more of a pita than it was worth. Haven't tried the electrics or cordless, wouldn't mind a product review. I did do a 35 pail log cabin chink job with a Cox bulk loading gun, that was about the time they pulled Vioxx just to add insult to injury d*
Quote from: Don_P on July 14, 2009, 09:28:49 PM
I did do a 35 pail log cabin chink job with a Cox bulk loading gun, that was about the time they pulled Vioxx just to add insult to injury d*
That cabin must have had some pretty large gaps. If I recall 2"X1/2" X 77 ft in a 5 gal pail @$115 per bucket. Don't quote me on that because it had been a while since I researched it. That is why I went to Mortar I couldn't afford the pail chink. One of these days when I don't have anything else to do i will go back and see just how many mortar pans full I mixed. ;D I do remember that I worked 5 weeks on both the inside and out. [yuk]
Call me crazy, but I glued all the tongue and groves on my subflooring. Nailed it down then went back and screwed it down. Granted I used 1 1/8" t&g plywood, but I didn't have any problems getting the flooring to come together. No movement what so ever and no squeaks.
Quote from: rdzone on July 14, 2009, 10:40:26 PM
Call me crazy, but I glued all the tongue and groves on my subflooring. Nailed it down then went back and screwed it down. Granted I used 1 1/8" t&g plywood, but I didn't have any problems getting the flooring to come together. No movement what so ever and no squeaks.
I'm using 11/8" T&G plywood also. The proof is in the pudding, and I hope mine works out as well as yours has.
I would imagine he's trying to pick up some of the benefit of a blocked diaphragm using glue instead of blocking and nailing the seams which would be the full blown way of creating a diaphragm, a rigid plane.
Man, that is one huge yurt. :o I thought they were designed as inexpensive shelters.
And boy, what a view. [cool] I would be interested in more photos. I appears maybe that the thing overhangs a cliff.
And thanks for the discussion on gluing T&G joints. I was considering doing that on my plank walls.
John,
Yes it did have wide gaps, from tight to ~7" wide. I've done both mortar and synthetic chinking. With the mortar I figured up the load I had added to the structure, it was not insignificant. My thinking is that on these original cabins the trees, felled by hand, hauled in behind oxen and hewed flat, came at a very dear price. The stick and mud, flat rock and burnt lime or cob and daub was quite cheap by comparison. A wide chink joint made perfect sense. Now the logs are pretty painless and the chinking is the high priced item, the rationale has reversed.
Quote from: harry51 on July 14, 2009, 03:19:00 PM
Quote from: MountainDon on July 14, 2009, 02:25:47 PM
I wonder about the advisability/necessity of applying the adhesive to the T&G groove. Is there a danger of not being able to squeeze out any excess when pushing the panels edges together?
Good question. The plans are engineered, and the glue in the groove is in the engineer's notes. We'll have to pay close attention to how things fit until we can see just what happens when we bring the panels together.
I think glue in the groove is an issue even if the plans aren't engineered. With I-joists the inspectors want you to follow the I-joist instructions, and I believe they say glue the groove.
I'm guessing this detail is more of an issue with I-joists than dimensional lumber as I-joists don't have much lateral strength and so don't hold up so well to horizontal shear forces perpendicular to the joist. And at unglued long edges of the plywood, the sheathing doesn't resist those forces either. This probably only matters where your floor membrane is doing a bunch of work structurally, e.g. a second floor or over significant cripple walls.
We had no problems with gluing the grove on our 1 1/8" main floor. However, I did have a few difficulties with the 3/4" TG plywood used in the loft. I found that using a circular saw to remove an inch or two of tongue or groove over joists where two sheets met helped a lot - chewed-up corners combined with the slightly different heights or thicknesses of the two sheets seemed to cause most of the difficulties. In one place where the glue dried before I could do this I ended up ripping off the tongue and putting in blocking.
With 16" o/c joists, one large tube of subfloor glue worked for slightly less than 3 sheets of plywood. However, given the amount that ended up on me, the floor below and random passers by, a less messy installer could probably do a bit better!
Another issue was nails. I wanted to use ring shank nail-gun nails and the I-joist instructions said minimum .120" width. The only nail I could find that worked given my preferences and the specs were 3" x .120" electro-galavanized (even though ungalavanized would have been fine). Note that the much more readily-available 2 3/8" x .113" bright or EG ring shank didn't cut it according the stuff that I read (and probably didn't have enough penetration for the 1 1/8" anyway??).
Quote from: davidj on July 15, 2009, 06:45:23 PM
I think glue in the groove is an issue even if the plans aren't engineered. With I-joists the inspectors want you to follow the I-joist instructions, and I believe they say glue the groove.
I take that back - the Trus-joist instructions don't actually say glue the groove, just the joists. The APA sturd-i-floor instructions do recommend it, though. Next time I should read the instructions thoroughly
before doing the work (or posting here!).
They
do say to use 8d (0.131"x2 1/2") or 6d (0.120" x 2") deformed-shank fasteners for 3/4" panel (i.e. common-nail, not box-nail, thickness). I couldn't find a 0.131" x 2 1/2" deformed-shank, or the 0.120" x 2" deformed-shank, anywhere, so I used the 0.120" x 3" (found at Lowes) for both 3/4" and 1 1/8".
Well, the subfloor is finished,
(https://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e46/51harry/Floor/IMG_0214.jpg)
and the final tally was 30 quart tubes of adhesive and 2,600 2 1/2" collated subfloor screws. I played around with some scrap I-joist and plywood, and decided I liked the 2 1/2" screws better than 2 3/8" ringshanks or 2" screws.
(https://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e46/51harry/Floor/IMG_0205.jpg)
I may have been a bit profligate with the glue, but my theory was a little bit extra was better than not quite enough. Our beads probably averaged 5/16" or so, with a 3/16" or so bead on the tongue or in the groove. We had no problem putting the sheets together, tapping them in with a sledge and a block.
We just used the hand gun to dispense the glue, and it wasn't too bad if I didn't try to take too big a squeeze at a time. Fortunately, I had help and he shared the gluing duty with me. Didn't find a power one for the big tubes locally at Lowes, but although I didn't take the time to do it, it seems like it would be pretty easy to build a dispensing gun powered by a cordless drill.
Here's a link to some more floor framing detail pictures:
https://s36.photobucket.com/albums/e46/51harry/Floor/
Next, the walls!
Great progress. I didn't think you would have an problems with glueing the tongue and groove.
Thanks, RD.