Went out at lunch today to run an errand. Stopped by a local motorcycle dealership to buy some jets for my bike. On the way in, I noticed a nice little dual sport that had a decent price tag on it. Then I noticed the fine print... "not including tax, title, and dealer destination charges".
So I asked a saleswoman what the out-the-door price was on the bike. Here's the part that blew me away...
She refused to tell me.
She said that their policy was to not provide pricing so that people can "shop around" the price on the bike. I told her that I didn't need anything in writing, just a verbal price on the bike.
She still refused. I walked out, and won't be back. I'm considering calling the manager and telling him that I am going to send him a picture of the bike that I buy from someone else.
Business must be great in the motorcycle world.
PLEASE post the name and address and phone ;D
Huh? What was she expecting you to do? Cut a check? I guess she had "sized you up".
Couple of quick stories . . .
I was working at an International dealership in 1975. A farmer came in with bib overalls and smelled like manure. He was interested in a new semi truck. The salesman laughingly quoted him a price . . . Surley, the farmer wouldn't be able to afford a new truck! The farmer thought it was such a good deal that he wanted to order 10 trucks! He paid cash-check when the trucks were delivered. About $600,000 back in 1975. He was a turkey farmer with a couple thousand acres. He no longer wanted to contract a trucking firm to deliver his turkeys to market. . . He wanted his own fleet of trucks and drivers. Don't judge a book by its cover!
In 1983 I went into the local Honda dealer wanting to buy a new Honda Sabre. I had previousy purchased a dirt bike (Montesa) from this same dealer. I guess he thought I didn't have the funds for a street bike . . . "You can't afford it", he said . . . It gave me great pleasure stopping in his dealership for parts - (bulbs, fuses, etc . . . ) with my new Honda Sabre that I had bought from a competitor!
NM_Shooter: Smile and wave as you go by the dealership with your new bike you have purchased from someone else! ;)
Well, Ok... R&S West, Albuquerque 505-896-0200 http://www.teamrands.com/default.asp
Just for grins I called the dealer and asked to speak to a sales manager. He endorsed his salesperson's position, and he said that they don't provide pricing unless a formal n offer is made first. He said that they are the highest volume dealer in the state and that they wouldn't be if there was an issue with the way that they do business.
He also said that they are a non-commission dealership, so in order to give actual pricing they have to fill out a significant amount of paperwork. That story sounds odd to me.
So I was aggravated, but the saleswoman was a decent person who was respectful during our talk. I'm still mad though, and am not planning on returning.
Nut! I was hoping it wasn't R&S. I've never bought anything from them, however I like the owner. I've talked with him at several land use issue meetings.
Seems like an odd way of doing business. I don't follow the requirement for a bunch of paperwork needed to quote a price when they don't work on commissions. ???
Next time I run into him at a meeting I'll buttonhole him.
Yeah... tell him I have owned 5 bikes in the last three years and am looking to buy two as of today. I prefer the no B.S. way of buying a vehicle. They tell me their price, and I tell them my price, and we see if we can get it to work out.
:) In 2006 we bought a new Subaru Tribeca for the wife. We were going to pay cash and the wife thought it would be nice to get some airline miles from the deal so we had our credit limit increased to 40K before we left the house----negotiated the deal and when the dealer asked us how we would like to finance it, I handed him our visa card---at first he thought I just wanted to use it for a down payment. His eyes bugged out a little when I told him to put the entire 34K on it, but he did after calling the card company. The following week a new sign appeared in his show room---"We no longer accept credit cards for the purchase of vehicles or down payments" Guess he didn't like losing the 2 or 3% fee he had to pay the card company.
All's well that ends well. Except for the dealer who was out of a customer.
I came home, found a KLX on Craigslist... a 2006 with 500 miles, owned by a senior citizen who has become ill and unable to ride any more. Not a scratch or a mar on the bike. Literally looks showroom fresh. Still has rubber pips on the tires. With a Firstgear layered jacket / armor, helmet and gloves. He had it all listed for $3200, and voluntarily dropped it to $3k after I rode it and was looking it over. I probably could have gotten it a bit cheaper, but I wasn't about to haggle with a guy dying of esophageal cancer (smokers take note n*). $300 or so was not going to break me.
Anyway, I couldn't pass this up. Absolutely like new, never off road. I can't wait for my daughter to see this ;D. I'll probably need to put Kouba lowering links on it for her, but it is not far off as is. Anyway, I'm sort of glad now that I walked out on the dealer, as I think I got a great deal on a like-new bike. I thought about sending a note to the general manager to tell them that their method cost them a customer, but I don't think they'd listen.
(https://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q46/nm_longshot/IMG_4090.jpg)
(https://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q46/nm_longshot/IMG_4091.jpg)
That bike looks brand new, great find. Yeah, I doubt the dealer would be too concerned at losing your business, the policy being what it is and all...deviation is not allowed as it would compromise the efficiency of the dealership.
Sounds like alot of other places that do not post the price in the store. I usually walk out and shop somewhere else that I can see what I might be paying. Not too much of an inconvience if they just forget to price one item but if it is the store policy I will take my buisness elsewhere.
BTW it does look nice. I gave up on MC years ago. Worked too many wrecks involving them and had first hand experience. That is one horse I won't be getting back on. Life's too short besides I like my tractor better. ;D
Red, I agree with you.
We ride forest roads and trails through the desert. Very, very little on-road riding, but I want to be legal when we do. No city riding, busy highways, none of that. I trailer to where we ride.
Just today, I almost got nailed doing a test ride on this bike. It was out on a lonely highway in the middle of nowhere. I was riding along, and there was a string of cars coming toward me. I saw the last car in the line put on his blinker, and I thought he was turning left... wrong. He was starting to pass a string of four cars, and he was in my lane. I started slowing down and preparing to head for the ditch when he spotted me. Rather than slow down, he SPED UP and pulled onto the far left shoulder and continued to pass the cars. I freaked, as now I had to stay in my lane. I slowed way down and prepared to literally jump up as high as I could. Luckily, he stayed in control, and the cars that he was passing slowed way down. Serious pucker factor.
Yes, I prefer long slow rides on deserted forest roads ;)
Very Nice bike...and a good deal. I haven't even started my big bike yet. I do ride the Whizzer and the little 125 on the farm.
I think it's a good deal. We both came away happy from the transaction, so I consider that a nice win/win. The guy told me that he also had a couple of 4 wheelers, and a mini-14 that he was going to sell too. I told him to give me a call.
Quote from: NM_Shooter on May 09, 2009, 07:22:55 PM
We ride forest roads and trails through the desert. Very, very little on-road riding, but I want to be legal when we do. No city riding, busy highways, none of that.
....needs to be legal on some forest roads...
very nice new bike
Frank around here there is no "off road" vehicles permitted on Forrest Service roads. If it can't be licensed then it can't be rode or driven on them. As far as the trails no motorized vehicles period. But in the same train of thouight we have 30 miles of Scenic Highway through the National Forrest which they oversee. In the winter they will permit snow mobils on it. ??? It is not maintained in the winter( no plowing)
We're feeling the squeeze from the Forest Nazis Service here. Trails that have been used by motorcycles for decades are now being closed rapidly.
These trails are marked as "cross country ski trails" and no motorized access now allowed. Here's the ironic part... an informal club called the Taos Grouchos were the ones who established these trails, and they are the ones who maintain them every year. Close these trails to motorized bikes, and they are going to go bad in a hurry. The fallen trees don't clear themselves.
I am more and more convinced that the FS has a primary goal of keeping people out of the woods.
Not just here. Every National Forest in the country is subject to the November 2005 Travel management plan. I don't like it, but there it is....
The Travel Management Rule requires that forests designate a system of roads, trails, and areas open to motor vehicle use by class of vehicle and, if appropriate, by time of year. The rule also gives forests the option of designating motorized access to dispersed campsites and to retrieve downed big game.
The Santa Fe National Forest received approximately 1,300 letters in response to the Proposed Action for Managing Motorized Travel on the Santa Fe National Forest released on July 10, 2008. Forty-five letters came from organized groups, and the rest were from individuals. The Forest also received six different form letters; and six suggestions for alternatives.
The Santa Fe National Forest will publish all this information in the draft environmental impact statement (DEIS), due out around the end of 2009. The public will have an opportunity to comment on the DEIS during a 45-day "notice and comment" period. Based on this information and public input, the Forest Supervisor will make a decision, called a record of decision. The Forest plans to have the decision in early 2010.
So, if anyone reads this far and wants to know where "their" National Forest plans stands, here's a link where you can begin from.
http://www.fs.fed.us/recreation/map/state_list.shtml (http://www.fs.fed.us/recreation/map/state_list.shtml)
For Frank, or any other New Mexicans, the Santa Fe NF proposals are here, in PDF map form
http://www.fs.fed.us/r3/sfe/travelmgt/pa_maps.htm (http://www.fs.fed.us/r3/sfe/travelmgt/pa_maps.htm)
I'm right on the fence Frank. Remember, all riders aren't like you, in fact, my opinion is that you are in the minority. I do think the National forest should be for everyone to enjoy. Responsible riders should be allowed to ride. The question is how to enforce it. If every responsible group made it a mission to kick the a$$ of every clown they see tearing up the landscape, there wouldn't be an issue.
Not too long ago there was a discussion about cigarette butts. I'm a smoker and I hate cigarette butts. I wind up with a pocketfull every time I go into a public woods and I don't smoke filter cigarettes. When I see someone throw them down, I make them pick it up.
Same thing with dirt bikes. Few things make me madder than a hill that the bikers have been using as a climber. Sure it's fun but it destroys very delicate plants, compacts the soil and digs ruts. The 4 wheelers are as bad or worse with their mudding.
How do we stop it? Do we want an army of Forest Rangers out....not me. Do the groups like the one that clears the trails stop them...not often.
What's the answer if they don't just close the trails. I do think they should be closed to mountain bikes if they close them to motorcycles. The bikes do just as much damage as the motorcycles and maybe more.
So I sent an email to the owner of the Powersports shops here in NM, primarily to see if they gave a damn or not. But also because if I am going to gripe to you folks, I should at least give them a chance to respond. Here is the email I sent, and the following post is the email I received in reply. I'm satisfied with the owner's response.
<snip>
Last week, I stopped by your showroom on the west side to purchase some parts for one of my bikes. On the way in, I noticed a couple of small dual sport motorcycles that caught my attention as I have a daughter who recently completed her MSF course. I've been looking for a bike for her to use as a starter bike, and I am looking for another dual sport (maybe a 650?) for myself. I have a DRZ400 and am looking for something with a little more road comfort. A saleswoman came by, and I asked her a few questions about the DR200 and how it might accommodate my daughter. I noticed that the price on the sticker did not include destination charges. When I asked what the total adder would be for an out the door price, she told me that it would be $1000 to $1500. I thought that seemed a bit high for a sub-$4k bike, so I asked her to clarify. She then said that it might be less than $1000.
I then asked her to give me an out-the -door price on the bike. She told me that by policy, she was not able to provide me with a price unless I was engaged in the actual buying process. I told her that I was shopping for bikes and I needed to know what a bike was going to cost me prior to me making a time commitment. She still told me that she could not just quote me a price.
I was pretty aggravated at that point, as I felt I was not being taken seriously. I left your dealership intent on not returning. I called your West side store and spoke with someone who I believe was a sales manager. He endorsed the position that your saleswoman had taken, and also told me that this policy has allowed your business to be the most successful in the state.
While that may be the case, I believe that there may be room for improvement. Because of your policy, I went home and started to browse Craigslist, and found a like-new motorcycle for sale at a significantly reduced price. I was prepared to purchase a new bike this past weekend (having already received a quote from Honda on a 230L), but was put off by what seemed to be a nonsense policy at your store. All in all it worked out OK for me.
Please note that both your saleswoman and the person that I spoke with on the phone were very courteous.
In my frustration, I posted a thread on a couple of forums that I frequent. I was amazed to hear that others have had similar experiences. One posting was on ThumperTalk, and the other posting was on a homebuilding site.... Here is the nature of one such post:
http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=6993.0
I buy and sell motorcycles because I like to own different vehicles, but I never really hang onto anything for a long time. I have not bought a new bike, and I suspect that after this recent experience I never will. I have a friend who is a casual acquaintance of the owner, and he mentioned that he might ask for clarification on this policy the next time they meet.
Regards,
Frank
The owner's response. He seems genuine to me:
First and foremost, thank you very much for taking the time to share your experiences with my team. I attach significant value to all of our customer feedback, positive or negative, long term friend or first time guest. As I am sure you can imagine, I am very disappointed to hear that we did not exceed your expectations not to mention the fact that our lack of training and understanding created such an unpleasant experience for you. While in the long run, it appears that this has certainly worked out for your benefit (that is a great looking bike at a nice deal) I felt compelled to respond to your message with a brief explanation of what our (my) policy really is in this situation. Unfortunately, as often happens in organization of more than "one," policies I, as the owner, believe are in place are in reality only as good or valid as the execution of our front line team.
To begin with, I want to assure you and anyone you may chose to share this with that it will never be our practice to intentionally hide, deceive or in any other way do anything that could be construed as immoral or unethical. You have a right and we have a responsibility to have everything transparently documented on the table for every business transaction in which we engage. Should such an event occur by our team, I will personally make it right. I am always accessible to all our customers by personal visit, direct e-mail (yours came directly to me) and by direct line cell phone (listed below and completely public). Having said that, here is our policy. Because we operate in a very dynamic and negotiable pricing industry, prices, promotions, installed options, delivery costs and a variety of other variables change on a regular basis (sometimes daily and often monthly) and from bike to bike. Unlike most motorcycle dealerships, we have attached hang tags on every product on our floor that show our asking price on a given unit at a given point in time. As you have noted, this price specifically states that it does not include destination, tax & registration fees. Where the policy broke down is here. We do not allow any other specific price to be communicated, whether is a discounted price or a calculated out-the-door price, in any format other than in writing. We do allow some general verbalized estimates on discounts, fees, etc, but not specific to the penny. However, "in writing" is not a complicated paperwork process and should have been done immediately on your request. It simply should have involved our team member grabbing a worksheet (or plain piece of paper for that matter), writing down the price listed on the hang tag, the stock number of the product, today's date and at a minimum, your name if you will honor our request. Then the salesperson can take that information to the sales manager and get an exact, complete price quote on that exact product at that exact point in time. It is at most a few minute process.
So I'm sure you are still asking yourself, that still sounds complicated and overly burdensome for me as a consumer. Why can't you just give me a number? In properly documenting your request, you can hang your hat on the number we will provide. It will be an exact number you could write your check out for and leave with the bike today. However, in the event you chose not to make a decision on the spot, and many of our customers do not, we will have then documented any underlying promotions and potential expiration dates, exactly what fees are included in our "out-the-door" price (all of them!) and any installed options that may be on the product we are quoting. In short, much to our vulnerability, you will have an absolute number you could shop around to other dealerships. Furthermore, if you left with one of our quotes in hand, with the full intention of shopping it for a lower price, and price is your only criteria in the purchase, I am confident you will get someone out there to sell it to you for less. In part because our competitors know our quotes are real and totally inclusive. This makes our young and inexperienced sales team members very nervous and as a result they only partially follow the process, the process breaks down or they "invent" a different process on the spot they think will work better. They want your business. But not from the typical margin based fat commission check motivation of most motor vehicle dealerships. As you are aware, they are not paid that way. Honestly, it absolutely makes no difference to them whether you pay our asking price or a number below cost. They want to create at win-win situation and they want you to see the value in doing business with our team. Finally and somewhat unfortunately, buying a new bike from an honest dealership is not as simple and personal as the handshake deal one can do with a neighbor. We are under tremendous scrutiny by our manufacturers, regulatory agencies and, yes, lawyers. We must say what we mean and mean what we say and be prepared, if necessary, to document our conversations. But we know we are in the business of selling FUN every day. We as a dealership and I personally as the leader, need to do a better job of training and educating our team so that you as our guest never have bear the pains or unpleasantness of our policies to experience the fun and excitement our products have to offer. Thank you for the reality check that will allow us to do better....
Sincerely,
Rick Alcon
R&S Powersports Group
Peter, I agree. I think I am a bit different, and I think you are too. When my family goes into the woods, we bring a small bag and make a point of picking up a little bit of trash. We stay on trails when we ride, and are mindful to be courteous to hikers and equestrian types. I'm bugged by most folks who just want to roost it up. I'm bugged by the number of smokers who toss their butts out cars.
But here's the deal... I don't want to have to suffer because of the idiocy of many. I would rather increase fines and whack the idiots than just have things completely closed off. I know it is hard to police, and the easy thing is to just close the forest to motorized travel. It's easier to punish everybody just a little bit than it is to catch and punish the guilty a lot.
Maybe this is why I get so mad when I see discourteous folks trashing the woods (whether on bikes, or dumping garbage). I see them as a threat to a lifestyle I enjoy. Hmmmmm......
I agree with both you guys, NM and Peter. I get really P.O'd at a number of 'users' of my favorite haunts; both here in NM and in UT. I get very discouraged at times. :(
I just realized there were a couple other earlier posts, Frank.
I guess I'd still go back there knowing what Rick stated. However, the private deal you got was super.
I'm so glad I'm not in any retail sales business anymore. It was bad enough 30 years ago.
I had to do an about face with that Frank. Looks like his people misapplied the policy and he's owning up to it.
Don seems to be a pretty good judge of character.
Ah shucks. :-[ I'm also pleased to see his response.
I've only talked with Rick a few times at Forest Service and BLM land use issue meetings. He struck me as being very intelligent and truly concerned about land use. Not from a stand point of simply wanting trails open so he can sell more bikes and ATV's, but from the stand point of responsible use of the trails ans public lands in general.