Hi all,
Last October my wife and I ran across a 3-acre parcel in Vermont that struck us as perfect, and we bought it. Her fantasy is a getaway place in our favorite part of the country; mine added the idea of owning a place outright, preferably off the grid. Building it myself wasn't necessarily part of the dream, but the economy tanking has made that a necessity.
I picked up the Builder's Cottage plans, but decided that 14 x 24 was too small. 16 x 28 wasn't much bigger, but - on paper anyway - gave us a little more breathing room. Two things I absolutely hate to do, however, is digging in root-infested, rocky New England soil and working with concrete, so I hired out the land clearing (which is done), the excavating, and the pouring of a frost wall foundation with a rat slab. This means I'm going to have a budget of about $14k to build the place, septic excluded. Probably well, too, as I understand I'm going to have to go down almost 300' where I am.
So, anyway, the foundation will be done by June 1, and then I've got to have the shell up by the fall if I don't want water freezing in it. Aside from having very little building experience, power will probably have to come from a generator and I live 3 hours away in Connecticut. Should be fun.
I'm currently building an 8 x 10 gardening shed in the back yard as a proof-of-concept (and to assure the wife I'm not completely out of my mind), and I'm beginning to make detailed plans for the real thing this summer. I'm sure I'll have lots of questions, and thank you all in advance for any advice you can offer.
My first question: Insurance. I'm having a devil of a time even getting builder's insurance because I'm doing it myself. Was everyone here able to get insurance, or did you thow caution to the wind and do without? I have nightmare visions of going bankrupt because some well-meaning friend or relative falls off the roof and needs 6 back surgeries, or (less troublesome) the locals decide to wait 'till I'm gone to pilfer my supplies.
I'll get some pics up soon - just haven't researched how to do it yet. I've got a blog on the project that I started at www.newenglandcabin.blogspot.com (http://www.newenglandcabin.blogspot.com), although I might shut it down if I find I'm posting here more.
Sounds like a good project. I didn't have any problems buying insurance. We just added it to our homeowners policy. 1 year of insurance was $360. Take pics as you go and keep all your recipts just incase you have a claim you can prove your progress.
Try not to worry so much.
We didn't have any insurance for several years, mostly because nobody would insure us, wood heat only, no electric, no running water or septic. We went through an insurance coop.
Our bank calls our house a "non-conforming property." Our mortgage is on the land only, but if we wanted to get a "traditional" mortgage, we'd have to: hook up to the grid, we have a solar electric system now, drill a well and plumb the house, install a septic system, and have thermostatically controlled heat. We're not going that route.
That's the problem, pagancelt - I'm a bit type-A. If there is something to worry about, I'll find it. Apparently the sticking points are that a) I'm building it myself, b) I don't live in the state it's being built in, and c) it won't be a full-time resident. The underwriters are concerned about injuries to inexperienced helpers, the length of time it might be incomplete, and the break-in risk once it's done.
I spoke to someone else this morning who suggested that we could probably get construction insurance at first, followed by a policy for a barn or shed while the utilities are not hooked up, and then a homeowner's policy once they are. He suggested that part of my problems may be that I'm offering too much information. I've seen that advice here before: Only answer what they ask, and offer nothing further. He's going to do some digging and get back to me in a few days.
I just want to be insured against two things: Personal Injury Liability and the cost of my materials. If the place is hit by lightning and burns, I don't know where I'm going to get another $15k...
It takes a lot to let go of Type-A traits.
One option is to take all tools with you when you leave, which can get to be a pain in the arse, so to speak. When it's finished, well, then you're on another level.
I worked with a guy whose father owned a hunting camp in Maine. Every year it would be broken into and trashed no matter what he did to lock it up. Nothing was ever stolen, it was just trashed. Another man who owned a camp nearby told him it's done by local teenagers. He was advised to at the end of the camping season leave his camp unlocked with a case of cheap beer and a bag of Doritos on the table. He did it and the next spring he discovered the items were gone, but nothing was damaged. He did this every year and always had the same result. One year he went back to discover the items had not been taken and assumed the kids had moved away. He never had any further problems. I'm not recommending this, I'm just saying that whatever you do to lock it up if someone really wants to get in, he or she will.
My advice would be having nothing of real value in there, and take home anything you don't want stolen. Personally I've never locked my tool shed and often leave the house unlocked if I run into town for an hour or two. I do it more to keep breaking away at the Type-A stuff then any long standing habit or trust in human nature.
You can also get to know a few locals and ask them to check on it from time to time and let you know how everything is. Having tire tracks running in and out tends to keep people from investigating what's going on with your place.
As far as insurance, well, I can't really offer any help there.
By the way, I'm a north of Athens near Brookfield.
Nice to see there's someone else from Vermont here! Don't know what it was like building in Brookfield, but Athens is a libertarian paradise - if you have a state septic permit, they don't care what you build. No permitting, no building inspector, nothing! Quite the change from where I live now.
Another question for everyone (or maybe John): In the 16 x 28 plans, 2 x 10 floor joists @ 16" oc are called for to span the entire 16'. In the framing book that's recommended on this site, however, the span table seem to indicate that only one type of 2 x 10 is good for this span, and even then only just. Does anyone have experience with this setup? Are the floors likely to be spongy? I'm trying to decide if I should put in a beam or not.
No codes or zones with me, either. The only things you need a permit for in my town are septic and driveway. Makes it real easy to do what you want.
According to my span book for main floor loads a Doug Fir-Larch #2 grade 2x10 will span 15'-7" when spaced 16" o/c. For Southern Pine #2 the span would be 16'-1". The actual working span of a 16' wide building with 2x6 sills is more like 15' so either of these should be fine. Most people will be perfectly comfortable with the floor deflection as calculated in these span tables. If you want a floor that has the rebound of a concrete slab you can either go to 12" spacing or a centerline beam.
See this free article at our sister site for more info and another span calculator : http://www.planhelp.com/public/98.cfm
Thanks, John - I didn't stop to think about the fact that the walls will shorten the unsuppored distance.
pagancelt - I have you beat by 1: My excavator is also the town road warden, and he told me no driveway permit was needed either.
All depending, this is some real "type A" stuff to ponder :D;
A typically available SPF #2 joist in 2x10 with a span of 180" and typical "real world" 7 psf loading will have a vibration frequency under 15 Hz. In testing this is considered objectionable by many people. In a stiffer species like DF it goes just above 15 Hz.
An SPF 2x12 will resonate at very close to 20 Hz, in dougfir around 21 cycles.
Putting in a double 2x10 midbeam supported at 7' intervals and dropping to 2x8 joists in SPF yields about 22 Hz.
This is all assuming a perimeter foundation, pier and beam will have a much lower frequency.
The 2x10 spf at 16' will deflect .58", about 9/16", under full design load.
The 2x8 spf at 8', bearing on a midbeam, will deflect .075", about 1/16", under the same load.
Don_P, the frequency stuff is quite interesting. I just don't know how to relate this to what I experience in the real world.
I have a cabin floor with 2x10 Hem-Fir joists, 16" OC. It's approx. 13' 6" between joists; that's the actual span between beams. To me it's a very stiff floor. What I'm used to at home is a concrete slab, so that's my basis. How does the frequency of my cabin floor compare to the one discussed above?
Thanks for your time.
Quote from: pagancelt on April 22, 2009, 07:53:58 AM
Try not to worry so much.
We didn't have any insurance for several years, mostly because nobody would insure us, wood heat only, no electric, no running water or septic. We went through an insurance coop.
Our bank calls our house a "non-conforming property." Our mortgage is on the land only, but if we wanted to get a "traditional" mortgage, we'd have to: hook up to the grid, we have a solar electric system now, drill a well and plumb the house, install a septic system, and have thermostatically controlled heat. We're not going that route.
Conform . . .Conform . . .Conform . . .Whats the matter with you? Conform . . . :)
Honestly, I think what you have done is great . . . Self reliance = Freedom
That's just it, bayviewps, the system forces people to conform.
The "system" is us ;).
MD,
Floors are sort of unique in that we typically don't design them by strength but by stiffness. The limiting factor in most floor design is not bending strength or shear but deflection. The original deflection specification that appears as the code minimum is L/360. If a floor spanned 360" it would be allowed to sag 1" under full design load. This standard was initially to prevent plaster cracks in ceilings under a second floor. The use of 30 psf for "sleeping rooms" dates back at least 40 years. This predates our current lifestyles, waterbeds, mountains of stuff in a home, thinset tile, etc. Length/360 is a comfortably stiff floor in shorter spans, as they get longer it can become annoying. A sure recipe for dissapointment is to design for 30 psf, L/360 on a span greater than about 15'. One simple design rule of thumb that came out of this research was that using 40 psf Live Load and designing for L/480 (25% less deflection than L/360) on the joists almost always works. The extreme example given in class was a 2X10 SPF 30psf floor framed 12" oc and spanning the maximum allowable 19'. The floor passes code but the vibration frequency would be 9 Hz, right in the middle of the most annoying range.
The floor frequency check is a way of looking at how a floor performs. In testing researchers found that people are very sensitive to vibrations in the 8-10 Hz range (I've read that this is the range of frequencies for functions in our bodies). They found that most people were comfortable if the floor vibrations were above 15 Hz. I'm not that finely tuned, what drives me nuts is to hear stuff rattling when someone walks across the floor. I'm not really happy with our 2x10 SPF floors that have roughly the same span as yours, my wife doesn't notice them. They check out right at 15 Hz so the average person, whatever that is, should be happy with them.
I've built long spans of 24'+ in a single lightweight engineered span , deflection of L/480+ a few times. In one case the customer complained, I hated the floor. In that case we had a very high vibration frequency but very little mass, it was too easy to get that snare drum vibrating. Having studied this some we added another layer of subfloor and screwed it on 8" centers in every direction. One of two things happened either the floor was made stiffer or we added enough mass to make it harder to excite.
To me that all gets pretty deep, the easy solution is to quit trying to span so far and don't push the limits with longer spans. Under a building its easy to break long spans in half, 1st to second floor requires some thoughtful placement of load bearing walls rather than a clear span building that can be cut up many ways. A stiff floor will still not feel like concrete underfoot until you get way out there.
One of our outbuildings is a pier and beam 24x24 story and a half gambrel barn. Its divided by a midbeam at 12' and has full cut 2x8 joists. I built it to dry flowers and then moved all my toys in, quite literally tons of it, the 35 Dodge, a coupla spare engines, tools etc. Around Christmas the dogs came bounding in while I was standing there. I tiptoed us all out of the building. I knew the joists were fine but my girders were too wimpy. The frequency was low and the deflection deep, it was in danger. I beefed the upper floor by adding 2-2x12 hickory plies to the girder and under the main floor I dug and installed another post under each girder, breaking their spans in half. There's a '56 in pretty nice shape calling me. Everyone is different so YMMV :)
Lots of good info, Don_P. I'm having pockets put in for a built-up 2x10 beam, just to keep my options open. Sounds like I might ought to use it just to be safe. I'm going to have a loft on either end, so the beam would also help in dividing them similarly.
bayviewps - I made the same comment to the wife yesterday. You start out dreaming of something 'alternative' but the system (in this case, insurance) puts pressure on you to conform. Like I said before, though - this is the one time in my life I expect to have this money to spend, so if the place burns for some reason I'll be living in a tent for the rest of my days. Makes me think twice.
Try this for insuance. They deel with this stuff all the time.
http://www.co-opinsurance.com/index.html
They work in vermont and NH.
You might want to think about putting up a gate. People love to
raid cabins when no one is home. Learn it the hard way.
Kevin
I agree on the gate with a lock and with posting no trespassing signs. Mostly all they do is keep the already honest folks honest. >:( >:( But they're also good to have from a legal standpoint if or when somebody does trespass.
Thanks for the suggestion, Kevin - I'll give them a call today.
Agree with both of you on the gate and the signs. Signs will go up next time I'm there, and the gate after we've finalized the size and location of the driveway.
The town roads are all posted against heavy loads until May 15th, so the foundation won't be poured until then. I'm switching into planning mode while I wait.
I am not the system. What was the line from "The Prisoner?" "I will not be numbered, filed, stamped, briefed, or debriefed. My life is my own." Something along those lines.
That's the insurance we have, actually they were the only ones who would insure us because we do not conform to the system.
The other thing you can do, cabin, is have your place a little ways from the driveway and parking area. If people have to walk a ways to get to your place they might not bother.
pagan - We've got a triangle of land between two road, and - given the location of the septic - there really is no way to get away from the driveway. On the plus side, we're within clear view of the closest neighbor, which hopefully will discourage undesirables.
Mr. Fever,
I would say those neighbors would be the people you would want to build a rapport with as they can easily keep tabs on your place. They might even allow you to store stuff at their place. Invite them over for a burger and beer and get to know them.
Quote from: Kevin on April 23, 2009, 07:40:07 PM
Try this for insuance. They deel with this stuff all the time.
http://www.co-opinsurance.com/index.html
They work in vermont and NH.
You might want to think about putting up a gate. People love to
raid cabins when no one is home. Learn it the hard way.
Kevin
Kevin: You were right - they were able to get me better converage at half the price of the first agent I tried. I ended up getting construction insurance at $20k with $300k in liability and fire/lightning/vandalism on the completed shell at $60k. Not going to be putting in electric or water this year, or finishing the interior, so this should be good.
please post pic's
yes, yes please post some pictures.....they keep us all motivated!
Glad that the agent could help you. If you don't mind can you tell us what there charging?
I'm going to get some insurance shortly with them.
Kevin
Kevin: The policy I got was basically fire, lightening and vandalism ($50,000), theft of materials ($20,000), medical ($5,000), and liability ($500,000). 1 year was a little over $600. I can renew it next year or - hopefully - move to a homeowner's policy if the place is finished.
Pictures: I need to go back and read how to post them here - which I'll do soon.
Update: The property is graded, and the trenches were dug for the foundation last night. Even after grading, though, the front is going to have to be stepped down to get below the frost line, so I'm going to be in for about $600 more than expected. I understand that the footings will go in tomorrow, and the whole thing should be ready for me to apply foundation sealant this weekend. Not likely, though - my Son's 3rd b-day is this weekend, and we've got a shindig planned that will take up most of Saturday. Thinking about a camping trip over Memorial day weekend to seal and lay down the sills.
Question: I'm going with a simple 16 x 24 box with 8' walls and a 12/12 roof, but I want to add a 7' deep porch off the front with a 5 or 6/12 slope. How do I tie this into the roof? Do I just land the tops of the porch rafters on the roof sheathing above a roof rafter and nail it down?
Also, How much should I expect to spend framing, roofing and siding said box (excluding the 10 windows and doors)? I'll have about $12,000 left after the foundation and land work, and I'm figuring I'll be spending $2,500 on doors and windows. Am I likely to make it?
Hopefully I'm doing this right...
The old meetinghouse across from my land
(https://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv10/bplavoie/Vermont.jpg)
The site before clearing
(https://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv10/bplavoie/VermontSite.jpg)
The site after clearing
(https://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv10/bplavoie/VTBuildingSite2.jpg)
Both of the last photos were taken with a cell phone - I'll load better photos soon.
The foundation is in. The excavator asked me if I wanted him to break off the form ties and seal it before backfilling, but I figure it's high time I start pitching in. Drove up last Sunday to take a look and break off the ties. This weekend I'll go up and do the sealing.
(https://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv10/bplavoie/102_1166.jpg)
Anyone have an opinion on the best product to seal the exterior with?
Mind if I ask the cost of your foundation?
I'm also working on a 16x28. Doing a concrete pier foundation, and should have a little over $1500 invested in it when done. Just wondering how much more a full basement would of cost me.
Sure, Beavers - I've actually posted all the costs at www.newenglandcabin.blogspot.com. The foundation itself will end up being about 6,000 including a ratslab. It was about 600 more than originally estimated when we found that the front wall needed to drop down an additional 4 feet because of the slope of the land. Add to that about 1000 in excavating and backfilling costs and you've got the ridiculous total of 7000 for 16 x 28. If I had it to do over again, I'd seriously consider just doing piers.
You'll learn to love that basement though, for storage or a cool spot during the summer heat. Of course, it might act as a vacuum and suck in all kinds of junk to fill it up. You know how nature abhors a vacuum.
Ain't that the truth, Waggin. I liked the thought of building something small in part of prevent us from accumulating more 'stuff' to fill it. My life in Connecticut is complicated enough as it is - in Vermont I want simplicity.
I should have meantioned in the post to Beavers that it's not even a basement - it's a crawlspace. I'll have just about 4 feet from slab to floor joists.
Thanks for the cost info on your foundation.
That is a lot of money, but I'm sure those guys earned it...I'm learning right now just how tough concrete work really is! ;D
I'm sure it saved you a lot of time as well. It has to take forever to do a crawlspace on your own.
Alot depends on frost depth, I've done 'em with a tiller and block in a coupla weeks. You're also getting a much stronger foundation with a crawlspace vs piers. Lateral loads are distributed along long walls that run in 2 directions attached to a rigid floor diaphragm. That is far less likely to overturn or allow the house to slide or uplift if it gets interesting outside.
In Southern VT we need to be down 48 inches and the amount of rocks I encounterd in two test holes convinced me that I was going to need an excavator anyway. I hate working with concrete, and hate digging almost as much. I talked with a bunch of contractors and locals about piers, and they universally talked me out of it, citing insurance concerns, resale value, stability and crittter control. In the end I sacrificed getting my well this year to to do what I did.
Back from sealing the foundation this weekend - my god petroleum-based sealant is a mess to work with, no matter how careful you try to be. On the plus side, the weather couldn't have been any more perfect and we were pleasantly suprised to realize there seemed to be no mosquitoes at all.
I'll post pics later today. Next steps: Backfill, set up the temporary power, finalize the plans and order the framing materials. Next trip up is the Saturday after next to take care of the sills.
It might not be a big deal here but the foundation is stronger if you backfill after the floor is on.
Don - I hadn't heard that before; I'll look into it.
Here are the photos...
(https://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv10/bplavoie/100_1191.jpg)
(https://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv10/bplavoie/100_1187.jpg)
(https://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv10/bplavoie/100_1189.jpg)
hi guys,
i just saw your post for the first time today... we also built a shed as a starter project. And, i will soon be trying to find an insurer here in PA who is as flexible as the one that you apparently found!.
my daughter is moving to vt in a few weeks. we went up to move some furniture and to check out the apartment. I think that your house is going to be twice as big as her living space.. maybe even a bit more! We had a great time in Burlington, and I expect that we will be visiting as often as practical.
I am looking forward to see pics of the progress that you all are making. good luck!
Hey Poco! Did you find the shed project as informative as I did? I changed a number of construction details and well as my ideas of what I could and couldn't do by myself.
You could try my insurer - I thought I understood that the insure outside of VT/NH also.
Burlington is a great town - you're daughter will enjoy it. It's quite a ways up, though - we're less a half hour from the Southern border.
Looks great! I'll second what Don said about putting the floor on before backfill.
Cabinfever,
Great job! Do you mind if I ask what kind of sealer you used? I have to do this step soon so I'm just curious.
Thanks,
BK
my daughter is actually about half an hour north of Burlington.. out in dairy farm country. ( and a little further from PA :( )
I tried to contact the co op insurance, but it looked like they worked exclusively in VT and NH. At any rate, after i posted, i got motivated to go out and check on local insurance companies. the first one, All State, flatly refused, politely, of course. And, the woman in the office did direct me to an office for an insurance broker a few blocks away . I had better luck there. the guy got in touch with Traveler's Insurance, and I walked out with a policy.. that is going to make us feel a bit better.
the shed project was not my first building experience, but it was the first time that my wife participated in the project. it was a good confidence builder for her.
BK - I used a petroleum-based fibered roof coating that advertised itself as being for roofs and foundations. Unfortunately, I can't remember the name. I was one of two options at my local Lowes - the other being a rubberized water-based coating. It came in 5-gallon tubs, and two were more than enough to cover 16 x 28. Before applying it, I broke off all the form ties and covered them with fibered roofing tar. Wear junk clothes and bring some Go-Jo with you - the job's a mess.
Poco - I didn't realize you could go 30 minutes north of Burlington and still be in the US! Don't know why I thought my insurance was sold outside of VT/NH - sorry about that.
I'd probably lean towards the petroleum based product also. Thanks for the info! [cool]
Hi all!
Here's the latest photos of the project. We spent the weekend and managed to get most of the floor together. I'll have to run back up next week to finish up.
It's been raining up here every day (it seems). I put down a big sheet of plastic before I left, but I'm wondering: The deck sheathing is Advantec 3/4" OSB. Anything I can/should do to protect it from the elements until the roof is up a month or two from now?
My son sat on the sidelines and provided moral support...
(https://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv10/bplavoie/061309FloorFraming1.jpg)
...while we framed the floor with 16' spans of SPF 2 x 12s...
(https://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv10/bplavoie/061309FloorFraming3.jpg)
...and covered it in Advantek.
(https://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv10/bplavoie/061309FloorFraming2.jpg)
Beautiful weather (for the first time in 2 weeks) on Saturday, with rain followed by nice weather on Sunday. CVPS still hasn't hooked up my temporary power, though, so we got to listen to the generator for 2 days.
Hey all!
We've been up to the site every two weeks for the last 2 months, and it feels like we're making pretty good progress. Most of the work has been done with the help of my sister (who is a slave driver) and my brother-in-law. We've been at war with the weather, which has been changing daily between downpours and sunshine, but - on the upside - it's been in the mid-70's when it hasn't been raining, so there's that, anyway.
Living in the coast in CT, the lack of mosquitoes in Athens has been a revelation.
We're rapidly approaching the roofing, and - given the 12/12 pitch - I keep playing with the idea of contracting for the sheathing and surfacing (metal, probably).
Some picks from the holiday weekend:
(https://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv10/bplavoie/100_1281.jpg)
Kitchen will be on the left, bath on the right...
(https://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv10/bplavoie/100_1296.jpg)
And the living space...
(https://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv10/bplavoie/100_1297.jpg)
We'll have two 10' lofts above. Getting the walls and lofts up was exciting - it finally began to feel like a cabin.
Interesting experience: We have now met 3 of our neighbors who moved here from 'away', but none of the VT natives have introduced themselves. Not sure how to take that.
looks like your making good progress.
Ive met the one neighbor I have where I'm building. He and his wife seems like nice people. They move there from Alaska and like the off grid way of life. They said the locals were some what unfriendly towards outsider buying and building.
:) ol well.
Keep the pic's coming
Very nice! I like the small rock wall connecting to the foundation as well.
Frank - To be fair, I suppose I'd have mixed feelings if my town were slowly being overtaken by outsiders, and that looks like what is beginning to happen to Athens. I also understand that the 'flatlanders' who moved in before us have managed to get into a bit of a war with one of the natives, and I'm sure that didn't help.
Cabinfever,
I noticed in your pictures that a number of the window and door openings do not have any headers, are they on the gable ends? Just curious. Other than that things are looking great.
Yeah - both pics were taken toward the gable ends. The windows are all 3' wide and are spanned by dual 2x6s.
Hi all,
Since the last post I've gone up a couple of times for a day to do all of the 'sweep up' work in preparation for the big push the next two weekends to get the roof framing and gable ends in place. Now that the windows and doors are cut out, it's starting to feel like a real cabin, especially with the two lofts providing a roof of sorts.
I think I've decided on hiring a roofer to lay down the shingles and maybe to put the sheathing on. I just can't get comfortable with the idea of working on a 45 pitch. Still thinking, though; I hate to spend the money.
Not so much rain up here lately, and the weather has been perfect - hope it holds up a little longer.
The future living space...
(https://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv10/bplavoie/071909Interior1.jpg)
The bath and kitchen...
(https://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv10/bplavoie/071909interior2.jpg)
The exterior back. Hanging the upper row of sheathing wasn't fun.
(https://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv10/bplavoie/071909Back.jpg)
Up to the cabin again last weekend to finish the roof with help from my sister and brother-in-law. It took us about 14 hours total to put the roof framing up, but it wasn't that hard, really.
(https://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv10/bplavoie/072709.jpg)
The pic is pretty washed out as the sun was going down by the time we took it. We're back up this weekend with my father and his wife to frame and sheath the gables, put up the Tyvek, and take care of a bunch of 'punch list' things. We've also got to get a couple of big tarps over the roof - I'm left with standing water on the floor sheathing after each rain - which seems to be daily. It may be another month before the roof is on (I'm subcontracting - too steep for comfort), and I don't want everything soaking for that long.
Wow , looks great! 16 ft wide was a good choice. Very easy to build 2nd floor with 16' joists too.
Thanks, Bishop. I'm glad I went 16 x 28...it already looks small, and I think 14 x 24 would cross the line into impractical for me, my wife and my son. I've got 2 x 12 joists under the floor and 2 x 10s for the lofts, and everything feels solid. Lots of work, though - it will be nice when I can finally spend a weekend at home!
16 by 28 is the size I am thinking of for my future cabin too. I think it strikes a nice balance between too small and too big. I was thinking I'd go with 10 ft walls for extra head room in the loft, but I'm wondering if it will look awkward for that size footprint.
Mike - to my eye, 10' would look OK from the wide side of the house, but it would be too much from the narrow side unless the roof were 45 degrees. I thought about 10' walls, but decided against them in an attempt to simplify the construction.
Hey all!
My father and his fiance joined us this weekend in their ginormous motorhome, and we managed to frame and sheath the gable ends, finish a bunch of punch list items, and get tarps on the roof. After a lot of thought, I've contracted the roof work including the sheathing, and I understand that they should be working on it starting next week. I'm going with architectural shingles rather than metal - the costs were roughly similar, but I don't have the woodstove or the plumbing in yet, and the chimney and vent stack will be much easier to install later if I don't do metal. Interestingly, the warranty on both materials is the same - 30 years. A 'standing seam' metal roof would have been better, but the cost is almost 2 1/2 times that of a 'screw down' metal roof.
This weekend I order the windows, complete a few more punch list items, and then take a break. Once the roof is on, I've got windows & doors, siding, and the moving of the temporary power to the house. Then I'm out of money for this year, unfortunately.
(https://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv10/bplavoie/080109_Front.jpg)
Hey All!
After the last pic, my father and my bro-in-law got up at 5 am the following Saturday to meet me in Athens for one last work day before the roofer arrived. Most of the work was blocking and sheathing between the rafters and putting up the Tyvek, but there were a bunch of little jobs we were trying to knock off as well. One that took a lot longer than expected was painting the trim boards for the gable ends - my 'one coat' paint actually turned out to need 3 coats. We finally closed up shop at 7 PM; they got home at midnight and I pulled in about 10:30. Long Day.
The roofer got the sheathing, felt and ice dam on the following week, and the shingles go on this week. The windows should be in tomorrow, and I'm picking up the doors at Lowe's tonight. The Wife and I are heading back up labor day weekend to put them in, and then I'll be officially out of money. Trim and cedar shingle siding will go up as money allows until the first snow, and then we're shutting down for the year.
(https://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv10/bplavoie/101_0069.jpg)
Just about all wrapped up for the winter weather. Is your place accessible after the snowfalls get serious?
Yes - the roads on both sides of the property are dirt, but both seem to be well maintained by the town in the winter. The cabin is only about 50' from one of them, so access shouldn't be an issue. I plan to go up at least once a month through the winter just to make sure everything's ok.
I was browsing on the web and I found this site. I am not in the process of building a home (the last one was 23 yrs ago) but I am from Athens. And I would like to welcome you to our town. I have been a resident for 30 yrs and have moved up the social ladder from flatlander to newcomer. I will never be a Vermonter by some standards other than my own.
Upon reading all the entries I see you are getting some good info. My husband owned his own building business for a number of years and built both our homes in Athens.
I am also a lister and Town Health Officer here. You will eventually see me at some point because of either job. One note I would like to put out to you is if you post your land you must register with the town clerk. It is a small fee but it backs up your posting legally. I know, but this is VT and we do things a bit differently. All signs must also have your name and a date on it. As for gate, unless you are willing to fence in your entire property, a gate might be a bit foolish. Like all places, if someone is not home (as your neighbor or yourself) you are open to robbery. Fortunately, in the years I have lived here that is a very rare occurrence. Don't worry about the townspeople. I have found for the most part, we are friendly. It takes awhile, but we are friendly. Like all towns there are some idiots but there are not a lot of them.
Oh, and by the way, yes there are a lot of people in town that are not from VT. I understand by way of rumor, you have to be at least the 6th generation to be born and die in this state to be a Vermonter. So don't worry, after 30 yrs. you'll be a newcomer too!
I hope we get to meet in the future.
Sandi
Sandi - thanks for the post! I've actually met 5 people in Athens so far - 3 are flatlanders and 2 are long-time residents; all have been welcoming. Even though I'm from Maine (and consider myself to be of respectible New England stock), I expect to be considered 'from away' pretty much until I'm dead. We've always thought Vermont was beautiful, and I consider myself to be lucky to be able to build something like this in a place I love while my son is still young enough to be influenced by it. I doubt I will put up a gate - seems like it would only invite trouble. As my cabin is less than 50' from the road, better to trust that my neighbors will report trouble if they see it. I don't know yet if we'll post our property (I assume you mean 'no trespassing') - we've got a pretty small parcel between two roads - but I appreciate the information. I expect we'll spend a weekend per month here and a couple of weeks each year; ultimately I have fantasies of moving here if the wife and the boy like it - and if I can find a local job!
We look forward to meeting you!
I know what you mean about being 'good New England' stock. I can trace my forefathers to the 1700s in MA. Which is where my husband and myself are from.
I do hope you enjoy your time in Athens. It took me a couple of years to fall in love with the place but I would rather be here than anywhere else.
As for the gate issue, you are right. Seems like putting a gate up around here invites trouble rather than deterring it. And yes, by post, I did mean 'no trespassing' signs. Again, another item that riles people up. You are close enough to the roads and other houses not to really worry about hunters. People up here just like to think they can take walks where they like and for the most part you can. The people that post their properties usually have many acres and want to discourage hunters rather than people out for a walk. It is small town living.
Looking forward to meeting you and the family in the future.
Sandi
Hi all,
My wife and I packed up the boy this weekend and headed back up to VT. My goal was to get the place lockable and weather-tight. 9 double-glazed windows were being delivered on Saturday morning, and I had 2 insulated fiberglass doors and a homemade crawlspace door in the truck with me. Some notes:
1) The place looked great with a roof on it. The roofer did a good job, but his attention to detail was off a little; the Tyvek I asked him to complete on the rear gable was forgotten, and he didn't put spacers under my 1 x 8 gable trim to get it to stand proud of the shingle siding I'm going to put on. Lesson learned: If you have to hire something out, be on site while the work is happening.
2) The windows were lighter than I expected, and I was able to put them all in myself. The doors were another story. The surprise of the weekend was discovering that I had purchased 2 different door sizes – 36" wide and 32" wide. Both were supposed to be 36"; not sure how I didn't see this. There's supposed to be a closet on the left wall when you enter, though, so I put the smaller one on the front, figuring it would give me a little more space in the entry.
3) I measured the crawlspace door no less than 3 times, and still got it wrong. I had to trim an inch off the height and 2 inches off the width.
4) Drilling into concrete for the crawlspace door jam is a world easier with an impact – as opposed to a regular – drill.
5) When all of the work was done, I was just a little disappointed – the interior of the cabin is darker than I thought it would be, though my wife thought the drywall might brighten it up some.
My wife spent a lot of her time painting the trim boards, which I'll begin to put up starting next weekend. Still have to put up the self-adhering flashing around the windows and the Tyvek on the back gable. After the trim is up, the most I'm likely to be able to do before the cold sets in is get shingles on the non-gable ends – there ain't that many working weekends left, and I've just about depleted the money for this year!
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The neighbor up the hill stopped by on his 4-wheeler and introduced himself. I asked him what he knew about the property – I thought it was too small and hilly to have been crop or grazing land, and yet the stone wall and some remaining strands of barbed wire hints that it was used for something. He said that it had been an apple orchard in the 30s and 40s when he was growing up in the cabin across the street, and that you could see all the way down the hill and across the neighbor's fields. A lot has changed – most of the land is forested now.
Looking good. Nice photos, especially those with the rock wall. [cool]
So what kind of siding are you going to install?
You'll be amazed at the difference in lighting once the drywall is up. If you paint with a light colored paint, the lighting will be sufficient. The darker you paint, the more artificial light will be needed. You've got adequate windows and once the interior is able to reflect that light, it will almost as though you had switched on a light switch.
Place looks really sharp....... excellent area and I hope someday you invest the time to dig for more history on your land. I think you will be impressed to learn more about it.
Poppy - I keep going back and forth between vertical white pine shiplap and cedar shingle. Or maybe shingle in the gables and the shiplap everywhere else. The problem I've got is that I ordered all primed WindsorOne 1 x 6 for the trimwork, rather than going with something 5/4 thick. This means that if I use the shiplap, the trim will be flush with the siding, and I'm not sure if that will look strange. Doing the whole thing in shingles would provide more contrast, and only cost about $200 more.
Jim - My wife said the same thing about the drywall. Even so, I'm thinking of adding one more window on the downhill (south) side before I put the siding up. And I'm a history buff, so I'll be pumping the neighbors for as much info on the area as they're willing to give!
Nice job so far. I like that 12/12 roof too.
Not sure if you mentioned it here already but how much snow might you expect over the Winter up there?
NorAz - the snow load map I got from my insurance company divides the state into three categories - 40, 50 and 60 lbs/sq ft. Athens in in the middle. My rafters are SPF 2 x 12 @ 24" with 3/4" T&G Sheathing. In addition to the nails, the rafters are all connected to the loft joists with 1/2" galvanized carriage bolts. Unless I calculated something wrong, that should be adequate.
Good info. Thanks. Great job on the whole project. [cool]
Quote from: cabinfever on September 10, 2009, 05:36:52 AM
NorAz - the snow load map I got from my insurance company divides the state into three categories - 40, 50 and 60 lbs/sq ft. Athens in in the middle. My rafters are SPF 2 x 12 @ 24" with 3/4" T&G Sheathing. In addition to the nails, the rafters are all connected to the loft joists with 1/2" galvanized carriage bolts. Unless I calculated something wrong, that should be adequate.
For 100lbs/sq ft and 20ft wide, I've got 2x12 #1 @ 24" with 5/8" plywood and clips, so it sounds like yours is really solid.
looks like a great cozy setting, I like your selection of architectural shingles
Davidj - I'm hoping so - wouldn't be funny to watch it collapse under the snow after all this work!
Upa - I want something I don't have to paint. Scraping and repainting every few years is the worst, but staining or water-sealing ain't no big deal. I've always liked the look of shingle, so here's my opportunity.
Hi all,
No posts lately - I've gone into hibernation mode for the winter. Lots of progress in '09, but it was exhausting and I need a break. Since the last post, I've put up all of the trim and gotten at least 1 coat of paint on it. I also got siding done on the North side, and managed to stain all of the white pine shiplap for the rest of the siding. Once the spring comes, I'll get the front and back porches built, and put the rest of the siding up. The big question next year is whether or not the additional groundwater monitoring will allow us to ditch the mound septic plans in favor of the much less expensive conventional system. The engineer thinks we'll find we can. If all goes well, I'll be able to finish the entire project next year, but a lot rides of some funding sources I'm counting on. In the meantime, I'm researching plumbing and electrical...
(https://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv10/bplavoie/101_0097.jpg)
This pic is from our overnight trip in December. I suppose I'm going to have to get the snow off the roof before it builds up too much more.
Quote from: cabinfever on December 18, 2009, 07:14:47 PM
I suppose I'm going to have to get the snow off the roof before it builds up too much more.
Unless you took some shortcuts you don't want to tell us about your roof should be fine. We had a lot more snow than that build up on our similarly pitched shingle roof back in Canada and I never shoveled any of it.
Your roof sounds real solid. You should be good to 7' of snow. :D
how did you solve the problem of trim thickness with the shiplap? I was thinking that you could've put a band molding around the window and door trim, and used 1/4" plywood furring behind the rest. You already got past that though. Looks good!
The vertical shiplap looks good.
Are you going to be doing something different on the gable?
Here's hoping you don't have to go with a mound type septic; I don't like them. [yuk] Even my county health department doesn't like them, but they have to live with the state rules.
John and Don: Now that I think about it, we never shoveled the snow off the roof in Maine where I grew up, either. Wonder where I got the idea I had to? Maybe I'll look for signs of stress once a month when we're up checking and not worry about it otherwise.
Poppy: Yes, the gables are going to be shingled, just to add some visual interest.
Jens: I should have used 5/4 for the trim, that would have made it 1/4" proud of the siding and added some shadow lines. I didn't, though, so the shiplap is currently flush with the trim. I'm considering a band molding, too, but haven't decided yet. Given the contrast in colors and textures, there is not problem with appearance; I'd just like to do something to cover the butt joints.
Hi everyone!
I realized today I haven't been here in a while. I post only slightly more frequently on www.newenglandcabin.blogspot.com; there are a few recent pics there.
I got to work in early April, and managed to get most of the siding up on the South and West sides before I ran out. Tried to order more a few weeks ago, but the supply company that delivers was out, so I turned my attention inside. I framed in a closet just inside the front door, built a bridge between the front and back lofts, and enclosed an 8 x 12' space in the crawlspace for the plumbing and water tank. As the south side of the foundation is exposed, and as it is vented, I'm thinking that I'm insulating and heating the framed-in space so that I don't have to worry about freezing while we're there in the winter.
The groundwater monitoring went well this spring, and the engineer is drawing up revised plans for an in-ground system. That should save me about $5,000 over the mound system we were approved for last year. Plans were sent to the state of VT on Friday, so I should have estimates before the month is out. I'm hoping to get septic in this summer.
The well goes in at the end of July. The driller did the two properties next to me and expects that we'll hit water at about 250', and the total cost is expected to come in at about $4,500, including the excavating, pump, tank and hookup.
I've drawn up the electrical plans that include what seems like way too many circuits for a 16 x 28 building. I've got a general recepticle circuit (15 Amp), a rear lighting circuit (15 Amp), a front lighting circuit (15 Amp), a bath GFI circuit (20 Amp), 2 kitchen GFI circuits (20 Amp), a well circuit (240 v, 20 Amp), a basement/exterior circuit (20 Amp), a microwave circuit, an electric range circuit (50 Amp), and 3 separate electric baseboard heat circuits. The electrician is going to get me from pole to panel, inspect my interior work, and hook the circuits into the panel. We'll have that work done before the well is in.
Best part of the work this spring so far: Beautiful mid-70s days and the sight of deer, chipmunks, hawks and foxes on the property.
Worst part: Pulling into the driveway with the wife and boy and realizing we left the keys in Connecticut last weekend. Sux big time.
I was just going through the work for 2010, and thought I'd post some updates here.
2010 Accomplishments: The short version
* Trim and shiplap up on 3 sides (+/- a few boards)
* Shingle up on 1/3 (hoping to finish before the snow this year)
* Electric service to the house, and 90% of the electrical run in the cabin
* 20 gpm flow found at 300'; well installed and tied to the cabin
* Septic evaluation and redesign completed; 'conventional' system installed and tied into the cabin
* Front porch build and roofed
* Interior bathroom walls complete, front closet framing done, bridge between lofts completed, and loft walls finished
* Topsoil and seeding in place - grass growing already
In short, the exterior is 95% finished, and next year we turn to the interior. Slow going, but we're getting there. I'll detail the work here in the next few weeks.
(https://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv10/bplavoie/101_0049.jpg)
I should note that I'm not sure I would have gotten this far without the knowledge I've found on this site - this place is better than any book out there.
[cool] I like the porch and porch roof.
It looks like a monsterous chicken coop with the little ramp leading up to the porch...
The link to your blog above is broken FYI - I follow your progress there also. Thanks for sharing.
Don - the hipped roof was a bit of a nightmare and I almost threw in the towel and went with a pergola half-way through. Glad I didn't though - what's a cabin without a front porch?
Brandon - Yeah - I really need to get some steps built. I just clicked on the link from the post and got there no problem. Wonder what's up? www.newenglandcabin.blogspot.com
I tried your blog link and it worked fine. Making great progress. You are right, what is a cabin such as this with out a porch. Getting to where it just begs for a couple rockers and a side table. [cool]
Rick - a couple of rockers is definitely in the plan.
Just realized I had a pic with some of the singles and the grass coming in...
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What are you using for the green trim around your windows?
The trim is 'Windsor One' - primed, finger-jointed pine 1x6 that I've painted. If I had it to do again, I'd use 5/4 instead; as it is the trimwork is flush with the pine shiplap I've used everywhere but the front.
What color did you use on your siding? Is it paint or stain? ???
The trimwork is painted, but everything else is stained with Flood CWF-UV5 (Cedar-tone). In the front porch pic, I haven't done the staining yet on the shingles.
A few more photos from this year. The cabin is only 16 x 28, so it's fairly small inside. We've taken one end and segmented it into a 6 x 10 bath and a 10 x 10 kitchen. To the left of the bath door, there will be a 3.5' diameter spiral stair going to the loft. It's a bit on the expensive side, but my father thought my son would love it, so he decided to make it a 'housewarming gift'.
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I did all of the wiring myself and had an electrician inspect the work and connect me to the pole. Originally, the upstairs was going to be a single loft, but it seemed a shame to waste the space, and so it became two 10' deep lofts. Then the wife got to imagining a fire in which our young son is trapped in one of the lofts, and before you know it there was a bridge between the two of them.
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Each loft will have 2.5' walls with multiple finished alcoves for baskets to provide some storage for clothing. Right now I'm thinking all of the walls are drywall and all of the ceilings are t&g pine. I've never done drywall before, though, so I'm a little intimidated. (Though I've never done framing or wiring before, and I seemed to have gotten through that ok...)
Had to get away from the Corporate Grind yesterday, so I high-tailed it for the cabin and continued the shingle work. Got all the way to the porch roof and then took a break to install the 2x6 facia boards for the porch. The sides weren't too bad, but trying to test fit the 15' front section was a trial; thank god for clamps - they are the MVP of tools for anyone working alone. The day was typical for New England - freezing and partly cloudy in the morning, ominously overcast and windy at noon, clear skies and warm by 2, and partly cloudy when I left. I took lots of exterior pics - the grass already needs to be mowed.
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You are doing an outstanding job! keep up the good work [cool]
Looks great. What beautiful land.
Do you have a floor plan you can share?
Gypsy - here's something really crude (No scanner, so I'm limited to MS Paint). There is a 10x10 loft above the kitchen and bath, and another above the living room. I've got a 2.5x8 bridge between the two, with a spiral staircase. The box by the front door is a closet, and the alcove between it and the front door will have a bench seat below and coat pegs above.
(https://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv10/bplavoie/Cabin.jpg)
CF if you don't have the degree setting for the gable end I usually go the old fashion way. Level the shingle on the gable wall as close as you can to the roof line. Then using a 2X place it against the slope of the roof line gable side and against the shingle. Mark the line on the scrap or shingle and thats the angle. Same goes for the porch intersection. Might take a scrap of plywood to use as a guide to set your angle instead of a shingle. I know they are pricey to pratice on.
Thanks, John. The Roof is 45 degrees, so I'm good there. Good suggestion for the porch, though. The other problem I've got is that the trim is nailed directly to the sheathing, and there is no space to tuck the shingles under it. I figure I'll be butting them against the trim and nailing the top course with 2" galvanized finish nails.
The cedar shingles are expensive, but I found that grade 'c' were about 1/3 the price of clear. They have knots, but not many, and they're mostly very small, so the money saved was well worth it.
Next trip up should be this week to finish the siding and secure and insulate the room in the back corner of the crawlspace in which I've got my well pressure tank (and eventually most of my plumbing).
Cabinfever, thanks for the sketch. It helps me visualize a lot better. Spiral stairs explains it - I was trying to figure out where you were going to fit in a stair case. I've considered spiral stairs but not sure I can make it work. I'm also planning to build John's Builder's Cottage but 18 x 28 plus porch. My kitchen will be a flattened 7 with the door exiting to the west. My bathroom door will be set away from the east wall 2'3" because I'm putting an armoire/closet just outside the bathroom door like in the the original BC floorplan. I was thinking about putting a gas wall heater right there on the wall between the kitchen and bath since all the plumbing will be in that common wall. Tankless water heater will go in the corner space of the kitchen 7 on the north wall right there at that common plumbing wall.
I'm living vicariously through your progress.
Gypsy - you may have to post a sketch - I can't quite envision it.
A steep stair would have worked in the space I have available, but a [non-code-compliant] 3.5' diameter spiral stair is more functional. A lot of people have them, and they seem to run about $800. I could have had more space for the stair by opening the bath into the kitchen and using the entire 6' wall of the bath for a turn-around staircase, but it was more important for us to have a lot of kitchen space. And besides, my 4-year-old will think the spiral stair is really cool. (Hell, I'll think the spiral stair is really cool, for that matter!)
The real problem with my plan is where to put the wood stove...
Here's a sketch I posted on a while back.
http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=8828.msg114460#msg114460
If the link doesn't work, search my posts for one called "My 16 x 26 version of John's Builder's Cottage".
I've added two feet and decided to wait on the extra room for scrapbooking and family gatherings.
I've planned to put a small wood stove (maybe a marine stove) on a raised platform directly across from the day bed, but may put the gas heater there. That would free up space for the stairs.
Texas Tiny Houses did a rounded loft over their kitchen/bath area with a "book/stair". There's a picture of it on here somewhere but I couldn't find it.
I think spiral stairs would be really cool to decorate at Christmas.
Looks good, gypsy. 16x28 looks big enough right now, but then the place is empty - I'm thinking it will be a lot smaller with furniture. Another 2' in width will give you more breathing room, but have you thought about how an 18' width will impact the way its constructed? I stopped at 16' because I didn't want a beam under the floor, and I could get a lot of dimensional lumber in 8, 16 or 24' lengths. With 18', you may find you're having to buy a lot in 24' with a lot of resulting waste, and you'll most likely need a beam. Not a big deal, but things are easier the closer you stick to standard material sizes. If you're going wider than 16, you might want to consider 24' instead - the cost of framing materials are relatively cheap as a percentage of the total cost. (Using larger materials becomes more challenging if you are building it yourself, though - another reason why I stopped at 16'.)
I considered the library ladder idea, but we concluded that the lofts would be a lot more accessible (to us and others) if we had some sort of stair rather than a ladder, hence the spiral.
To my thinking, a woodstove is critical to the 'feel' of a cabin (as is a porch), and so its a non-negotiable for me. I'm thinking I'm going with the smallest Jotul, although we will also have a wall-mounted, direct vent heater.
re: 18 foot width. A width of 16 feet worked for us as well (15.75 actually ::) ) but if 18 feet fits one's use better it can be done without a center beam. Partly it will depend on what species and grades are readily available and whether or not 18 or 20 foot lengths are available. Here I could get 20 foot lengths of 2x12 even from one of the big box brands, at times. Sometimes they have 20's in Hem-Fit which will just cover the width in #2 grade. We also have a real lumber yard that stocks 20 foot 2x12 as a more or less normal item. The AWC calculator makes ity easy to see what species would work. The cut off from a 20 foot 2x12 can then be used for blocking between floor joists, so there is not much waste. My waste went for kindling for the VC Aspen wood stove.
We didn't want a loft, so no comment on that, except for, an extra 2 feet of width will also increase loft headroom some.
Good point, Don - in New England, I was limited to Canadian SFP and the loading wasn't as good as Doug Fir. As far as lengths, I suppose it just takes some pre-planning to ensure that as little as possible goes to waste.
cabinfever - It's just me and it's for retirement so I think as far as square footage and arrangement it should be fine. Might add a bedroom to the right of the bathroom. Door would be where the clothes armoire is. I added the two feet for the clothes dryer in the bathroom and room for a small table near the kitchen.
I have an open version of John's 20 x 30 with only the bathroom enclosed but I can't get photobucket to cooperate for anything, and I don't want to hijack your thread. One thing I'm trying to accomplish is being able to heat and cool most of the whole place with one or two wall units. Don't want to be retired on a limited income and have to shell out $10,000 to $15,000 for a ch/a unit. If a wall unit goes out and can't be repaired, I can run down to wally world and get a new one.
Any updates or new pictures?