So how about those Somalian pirates? The ship owners are afraid to arm their vessels which I believe simply encourages the pirates to carry on as usual. d*
I don't get it either Don
a couple 50 cal BMG's would stop the problem in short order
Jus Cogens
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peremptory_norm
Arming the vessels is would be ineffective. So that just the leaves the crew. The problem is the ships are so large, many don't know about the pirates until they are on the ship. The pirates are towed out into deep waters by larger vessels. These are small shallow skiffs so that they are not detected by radar. Also some of the pirates have RPG's. It is just cheaper to pay the ransom than the risk of loss of an entire ship and cargo which can run into the hundreds of millions of dollars.
I disagree
After the first few pirate skiffs, as you call them, are sunk with all pirates killed or captured, the profession will become less popular in a hurry. Also the atrition of a few hundred dead pirates will slow down the operations a bit not to mention the loss of their ships.
With current technology such as night vision and high resolution RADAR there is no excuse for the 'skiffs' to be not detected well in advance of them getting close enough to the ship to board it.
My other question here is: how do the 'pirates' cash in their ransoms -- could there be some bank fraud here ?
You guys are looking at treating the symptoms, not the disease. We have interest in the mineral rich areas here in Africa.
I look for events to be encouraged covertly that will allow the US military to come to this area with the approval or at least apathetic agreement of the sheeple so that once again big US based corporations and our politicians may make some final pillaging of the treasury and massive profits from the mineral rich area before the total fall of our government.
Once again the US meat breeders will provide sons and daughters for the protection of corporate interests.
http://uruknet.info/?p=m51825&hd=&size=1&l=e
QuoteSOMALIA IS located in the strategically crucial Horn of Africa on the eastern edge of the continent--adjacent to the Red Sea, Suez Canal and key commercial waterways. Somalia and neighboring Sudan have been targeted for oil exploration by U.S. companies, but China, India and other countries have also gotten their foot in the door with development contracts.
Competition past and present is behind the U.S. government's concern with Somalia. The U.S. has variously engaged in direct intervention (as in the infamous "Black Hawk Down" Marine invasion of 1992-3), backed different warlord factions and supported proxy armies (such as Ethiopia).
Actually, the history of Western intervention in Somalia and the Horn of Africa extends back throughout the 20th century, during which time colonial powers and the Cold War superpowers waged proxy battles in constantly shifting alliances and conflicts. Somalia's civil wars--like those in Darfur and southern Sudan--must be seen as a direct result of the U.S. and the former USSR arming different sides with billions of dollars, all while famines raged.
I just remembered my covert ops army buddy telling me how big an F-up the Blackhawk down incident was.
I didn't see the movie - likely highly glamorized, and he was talking about the actual incident and what he knew about it.
Infowars
talking about it now
Just read an article on the Somali Pirate situation from their side http://www.sfbayview.com/2009/you-are-being-lied-to-about-pirates/
February 4, 2009
You are being lied to about pirates
by Johann Hari
Somali pirate "ships" are small, but the ships they seize are huge. They held one gigantic tanker for months until ransom was paid.
Who imagined that in 2009, the world's governments would be declaring a new War on Pirates? As you read this, the British Royal Navy - backed by the ships of more than two dozen nations, from the U.S. to China - is sailing into Somalian waters to take on men we still picture as parrot-on-the-shoulder pantomime villains. They will soon be fighting Somalian ships and even chasing the pirates onto land, into one of the most broken countries on earth.
But behind the arrr-me-hearties oddness of this tale, there is an untold scandal. The people our governments are labeling as "one of the great menaces of our times" have an extraordinary story to tell - and some justice on their side.
In 1991, the government of Somalia - in the Horn of Africa - collapsed. Its 9 million people have been teetering on starvation ever since - and many of the ugliest forces in the Western world have seen this as a great opportunity to steal the country's food supply and dump our nuclear waste in their seas.
Yes: nuclear waste. As soon as the government was gone, mysterious European ships started appearing off the coast of Somalia, dumping vast barrels into the ocean. The coastal population began to sicken. At first they suffered strange rashes, nausea and malformed babies. Then, after the 2005 tsunami, hundreds of the dumped and leaking barrels washed up on shore. People began to suffer from radiation sickness, and more than 300 died.
Ahmedou Ould-Abdallah, the U.N. envoy to Somalia, tells me: "Somebody is dumping nuclear material here. There is also lead and heavy metals such as cadmium and mercury - you name it." Much of it can be traced back to European hospitals and factories, who seem to be passing it on to the Italian mafia to "dispose" of cheaply. When I asked Ould-Abdallah what European governments were doing about it, he said with a sigh: "Nothing. There has been no cleanup, no compensation and no prevention."
At the same time, other European ships have been looting Somalia's seas of their greatest resource: seafood. We have destroyed our own fish stocks by over-exploitation - and now we have moved on to theirs. More than $300 million worth of tuna, shrimp, lobster and other sea life is being stolen every year by vast trawlers illegally sailing into Somalia's unprotected seas.
The local fishermen have suddenly lost their livelihoods, and they are starving. Mohammed Hussein, a fisherman in the town of Marka 100km south of Mogadishu, told Reuters: "If nothing is done, there soon won't be much fish left in our coastal waters."
This is the context in which the men we are calling "pirates" have emerged. Everyone agrees they were ordinary Somalian fishermen who at first took speedboats to try to dissuade the dumpers and trawlers, or at least wage a "tax" on them. They call themselves the Volunteer Coast Guard of Somalia - and it's not hard to see why.
Shipowners are reluctant to arm crews made up of men/women from all over the world with no weapons training or experience who could not be relied on. Also, most of these ships are running on autopilot and have virtually no actual watch on deck. Convoys protected by warships may be .the only short term solution
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/sep/10/antonybarnett.theobserver
We've been playing there for a while.
If there has been organized dumping of waste off the Somali coast, I wonder why these concerned pirates haven't hijacked/raided those ships. Ditto on the question of foreign fishing vessels raping the Somali fishery. They are adept at capturing ships. They could capture, ransom and bring this to world attention.
Or, Maybe they do hijack the larger, possibly more valuable ships because of their concern for their environment. Then why don't they make one condition of the release of said captured ships be the broad publication of the dumping? No they just ask for millions of dollars.
I also wonder if there is dumping there, why? Why there? There are many square miles of ocean further away from shores where dumping could be performed. Plenty of area on the west side of Africa where shipping is less dense.
It seems that these pirates have only one goal and that is to live well off the ransom money. Anyway you look at that it is illegal.
There's probably lots of illegal things going on that we aren't made privy too...
Navy Rescues Captain, 3 Pirates Killed (AP)
Go Navy!! (http://countryplans.com/smf/Themes/John-1/images/post/thumbup.gif)
MOMBASA, Kenya (April 12) - An American ship captain was freed unharmed Sunday in a swift firefight that killed three of the four Somali pirates who had been holding him for days in a lifeboat off the coast of Africa, U.S. officials said.
Capt. Richard Phillips' crew, who said they escaped after he offered himself to the pirates as a hostage, erupted in cheers abroad their ship docked in Mombasa, Kenya, waving an American flag and firing a flare in celebration.
The U.S. Navy's 5th Fleet said Phillips was resting comfortably on a U.S. warship after receiving a medical exam.
The Navy said Phillips was freed at 7:19 p.m. local time. He was taken aboard the Norfolk, Virginia-based USS Bainbridge and then flown to the San Diego-based USS Boxer for the medial exam, 5th Fleet spokesman Lt. Nathan Christensen said.
Christensen said Phillips was now "resting comfortably." The USS Boxer was in the Indian Ocean off the coast of Somalia, Christensen said.
The U.S. did not say if Phillips, 53, of Underhill, Vermont, was receiving medical care because he had been injured or if he was being treated for exposure after his ordeal.
U.S. officials said a pirate who had been involved in negotiations to free Phillips but who was not on the lifeboat during the rescue was in military custody. FBI spokesman John Miller said that would change as the situation became "more of a criminal issue than a military issue."
Justice Department spokesman Dean Boyd said prosecutors were looking at "evidence and other issues" to determine whether to bring a case in the United States.
Maersk Line Limited President and CEO John Reinhart said in a news release that the U.S. government informed the company around 1:30 p.m. EDT Sunday that Phillips had been rescued. Reinhart said the company called Phillips' wife, Andrea, to tell her the news.
The U.S. official was not authorized to discuss the matter publicly and spoke on condition of anonymity. A Pentagon spokesman had no immediate comment.
When Phillips' crew heard the news aboard their ship in the port of Mombasa, they placed an American flag over the rail of the top of the Maersk Alabama and whistled and pumped their fists in the air. Crew fired a bright red flare into the sky from the ship.
"We made it!" said crewman ATM Reza, pumping his fist in the air.
"He managed to be in a 120-degree oven for days, it's amazing," said another of about a dozen crew members who came out to talk to reporters. He said the crew found out the captain was released because one of the sailors had been talking to his wife on the phone.
Capt. Joseph Murphy, the father of second-in-command Shane Murphy, thanked Phillips for his bravery.
"Our prayers have been answered on this Easter Sunday. I have made it clear throughout this terrible ordeal that my son and our family will forever be indebted to Capt. Phillips for his bravery," Murphy said. "If not for his incredible personal sacrifice, this kidnapping and act of terror could have turned out much worse."
In the written statement, Murphy said both his family and Phillips' "can now celebrate a joyous Easter together."
Terry Aiken, 66, who lives across the street from the Phillips house, fought back tears as he reacted to the news.
"I'm very, very happy," Aiken said. "I can't be happier for him and his family."
A government official and others in Somalia with knowledge of the situation had reported hours earlier that negotiations for Phillips' release had broken down.
Talks to free him began Thursday with the captain of the USS Bainbridge talking to the pirates under instruction from FBI hostage negotiators on board the U.S. destroyer. The pirates had threatened to kill Phillips if attacked.
Three U.S. warships were within easy reach of the lifeboat on Saturday. The U.S. Navy had assumed the pirates would try to get their hostage to shore, where they can hide him on Somalia's lawless soil and be in a stronger position to negotiate a ransom.
Maersk Line said before news of the rescue broke that "the U.S. Navy had sight contact" of Phillips — apparently when the pirates opened the hatches.
Before Phillips was freed, a pirate who said he was associated with the gang that held Phillips, Ahmed Mohamed Nur, told The Associated Press that the pirates had reported that "helicopters continue to fly over their heads in the daylight and in the night they are under the focus of a spotlight from a warship."
He spoke by satellite phone from Harardhere, a port and pirate stronghold where a fisherman said helicopters flew over the town Sunday morning and a warship was looming on the horizon. The fisherman, Abdi Sheikh Muse, said that could be an indication the lifeboat may be near to shore.
The district commissioner of the central Mudug region said talks went on all day Saturday, with clan elders from his area talking by satellite telephone and through a translator with Americans, but collapsed late Saturday night.
"The negotiations between the elders and American officials have broken down. The reason is American officials wanted to arrest the pirates in Puntland and elders refused the arrest of the pirates," said the commissioner, Abdi Aziz Aw Yusuf. He said he organized initial contacts between the elders and the Americans.
Two other Somalis, one involved in the negotiations and another in contact with the pirates, also said the talks collapsed because of the U.S. insistence that the pirates be arrested and brought to justice.
Phillips' crew of 19 American sailors reached safe harbor in Kenya's northeast port of Mombasa on Saturday night under guard of U.S. Navy Seals, exhilarated by their freedom but mourning the absence of Phillips.
What a story... :D :D :D
Here is an update including a pic of the Captain (right) who appears to be in pretty good shape: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123953580718311447.html
(http://s.wsj.net/public/resources/images/OB-DM022_0412pi_D_20090412154745.jpg)
Those Seal Snipers are Good!
We have foreign ships docking in American harbors everyday. I don't think it would be a good idea to have armed cargo ships docking at our piers.
A ship flying the American flag, to me, is like being on American soil. Invading our ships is an act of war . . . A swift military action should be used to remedy these situations.
The pirates vow to retaliate? http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-general/20090413/Piracy/
How about leaving US ships alone, and we won't kill your thugs?
I'd like to know more of the details. The shots were taken in the dark... The real challenge is that the little bitty lifeboat was probably bobbing up and down and back and forth.... unless the seas were perfectly calm. Even a 600 yd shot with a .308 has over a 1 second flight time. Things can change a lot over one second if the seas are moving.
I suspect that the seals were not on one of the big ships, but were probably on a smaller vessel much closer. Either hidden in the dark near the lifeboat, or perhaps under the guise of transferring supplies to the pirates. I'd like to know how they got the pirates and the captain outside the lifeboat in the dark. I'm even more impressed with the negotiating than the shooting!
In an armchair quarterback fashion, I bet they let the pirates get hungry / thirsty for a couple of days. Hold off supplies to get them anxious for them. Then say they received approval to deliver some supplies... want them now? Yeah, we know it's dark. We'll have lots of lights on the delivery boat so you can see no shenanigans. But here's the deal... we want to see the captain on the deck to know that he is not hurt. We want to take pictures of him standing and breathing or the deal is off. Put seals in the water with guns real close.. hide them in the glare of the spotlights. You'd have to have them there anyway for rescue purposes, in case one of the pirates puts a bullet into the captain and he goes into the water. No way was this a long shot, but I bet the navy will never admit to it. Maybe a 200 yd shot... but my money is still on seals in the water doing the real work.
I would bet we'll never know the nature of all the details, and I guess I would prefer not to know if it compromises tactics.
It was described as a "brief but intense fire fight" on one account that I can no longer find--The Times of India I think
It will no doubt be kept secret -- so they can use it next time
I agree the seals were probably surrounding the life boat while the decoy boat was lit up like a Christmas tree
I think I would have flashed the life boat with a search light to blind the pirates just before the attack
Looks like they claim 25 yard shots. I can believe that...
http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-politics/20090413/Piracy.Single.Shot.Takedowns/
My understanding was they had the other boat on a tow line while they negotiated with one of the pirates.
Not very remarkable, truthfully. I know hunters who can take down deer running laterally in dense woods at fifty yards.
Quote from: pagancelt on April 13, 2009, 12:21:10 PM
Not very remarkable, truthfully. I know hunters who can take down deer running laterally in dense woods at fifty yards.
Yikes... a running animal in dense woods is an unethical shot.
I would agree that a 25 yard shot is not much of a challenge for an average shooter. Unless of course it is in the dark, the surface you are standing on is bobbing up and down 4 to 6 feet, the target is bobbing up and down 6 feet, there's a helicopter washing down on you and the target has a gun held directly on a hostage in very close proximity. Oh... and you can't actually break the shot when it you want. You are waiting for a signal to fire in sync with two others.
I'm very respectful of the composure and ability required to make that sort of shot.
I didn't know about the Helicopter. But was it 3 shooters coordinated or can one shooter take out 3 people fast enough?
I have never tried Pilates.
NM,
Good shots, to be sure, but to make this sound like a handful of people on the planet are capable of pulling this off is silly. Remember, these men are highly trained and I would not be surprised if they practiced making water shots for several hours at a time in the days prior to being deployed.
Whether it was 25 or 200 yards it was well deserving IMO. If more pro active approach would be taken on many of the delimias that Americans are faced with abroad then there would be less of a desire by pirates fashions against US Citizens. What happened to our reputation?
i am very happy for the decisions and outcome of this situation as i know everyone else is. as an old marine who earned an expert badge on the firing range and with combat experience in nam i can tell you that those shots were amazing. i also want to hijack the thread a little and say i have moved into the house inherited in my mom's estate and just got on line yesterday and feel like the male equivalent of HGT when she went through her ordeal. boxes everywhere, can't find anything. i have fallen behind in updates about everyone and hope you all are doing fine and had a good Easter.
dan(aka apaknad) ::)
Quote from: pagancelt on April 13, 2009, 03:48:16 PM
NM,
Remember, these men are highly trained and I would not be surprised if they practiced making water shots for several hours at a time in the days prior to being deployed.
I agree... but comparing these guys to hunters hoping for a kill shot through dense brush at a moving object is not the right analogy. Anyone who kills a running deer in heavy timber is an example of luck, not skill. And anyone who would take such a shot is not welcome on my property as a visitor, let alone to hunt.
I think any one of the competitive shooters I know that have an expert class card or higher could have made that shot if given some environmental training. Probably a lot of hunters too. Who was it who said that only a handful of people could have done it? Are you referring to the news reports? They are being rather sensationalistic about it.
I am in favor of short negotiations with folks such as these pirates. I am in favor of amending maritime laws which disallow weapons. I am a firm believer in peace through superior firepower. I also think that politicians should negotiate, and warriors should battle. We get into problems when politicians stick their noses into battles, and when warriors attempt to negotiate.
Once the Navy started to "negotiate" I think we all knew how this was going to go. It is sort of like the fox negotiating the chicken to open the coop door.
But you know me... I am never far from an opinion :)
(Stink, you crack me up!)
Glad you made it back, Dan.
NM,
I don't know any hunters who hope to make a shot. All of the people I know who hunt make the shots they take. I agree with you, I don't want anybody who fires and "hopes" to make a hit hunting on my land either.
I was referencing a media article relating the extreme skill of the SEALs. Of course the media is sensationalizing this because it gives them something to justify their jobs and also deflects public attention from domestic issues such as millions of people losing their jobs.
When this was first reported I told my coworkers we'll be hearing about four dead pirates in a few days. Negotiating with them only gives them the idea they have power and would only further the boldness of their attacks in the future. I hope I'm wrong, but I sense an invasion in Somalia's future.
I think this is written very well ...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/13/AR2009041302583_pf.html
That is a very good article. (http://countryplans.com/smf/Themes/John-1/images/post/thumbup.gif)
very good article about a very hard situation
Saw a documentary a while back where a shooter demonstrated a .50 sniper rifle----he put two shots in a 12" square target from 1 1/2 miles away-----impressive to say the least. He was firing AP rounds meant for use against vehicles (and thin skinned humans). [cool]
Good article, although I would disagree that snipers are "pure alphas" as that personality type is more prone to act first and think later. Snipers are trained to observe and wait while exercising extreme patience. They took their shots when they knew they'd hit.
Here's the luckiest man on the planet. He came so close to getting his Darwin Award, though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyCV9kWmN1o
The article in the Post was written like a novel, of course, the writer is a novelist & writes about snipers - kept my interest...
Yes, the guy on YouTube would be a candidate for the Darwin award even though he made it out alive d*
Here's another article http://www.gopusa.com/commentary/dpatton/2009/dp_04131.shtml
Sadly, Joe Biden Was Right
By Doug Patton
April 13, 2009
Parents and grandparents of small children who recognize the name "Veggie Tales," will be familiar with one of that animated series' most amusing offerings, "The Pirates Who Don't Do Anything." Now we find out that there are real pirates loose on the high seas who are capturing American citizens and holding them for ransom -- and until Sunday it was beginning to look like we had a president who wouldn't do anything.
Remember Vice President (then Senator) Joe Biden's warning just before last November's election? "Mark my words," Biden said to a group of donors at a fund-raiser last fall. "It will not be six months before the world tests Barack Obama like they did John Kennedy. The world is looking. We're about to elect a brilliant, 47-year-old senator President of the United States of America. Remember I said it standing here, if you don't remember anything else. Watch. We're going to have an international crisis, a generated crisis, to test the mettle of this guy. I can give you at least four or five scenarios from which it might originate. And he's gonna need help, because it's not gonna be apparent that we're right."
con't at link above...
Hmmmmm, I guess anything could have happened in 6 mo to make him a prophet...
Given the state of the world and the economy it's not very prophetic to make such a statement.
This whole issue is a poster child for pro-second amendment arguments.
Let's see... maritime law does not allow these ships to be armed. The criminals of the seas are preying on unarmed ships, as they have no way to protect themselves.
I agree with Windpower. I think a small security staff with decent weapons could thwart this in a hurry.
NM,
Better radar for alerting merchant vessels of approaching small craft and a well trained security detail would clear this up quickly.
One thing that nobody has touched on is Obama's handling of the affair. I believe the gopusa article is a little unfriendly to him with the statement "Even in Joe Biden's fertile imagination, he could not have visualized this as one of the scenarios that would paralyze the prez." I doubt that Obama was paralyzed. He simply didn't open his mouth right off the bat when there was little need for a comment that could have possibly inflamed the situation.
I'm certain that behind the scenes there was lots of talk going on. Obama did, after all, do what was the best thing to do; he gave authorization to the Navy to do what was necessary if Captain Phillips was in imminent danger. And it was probably best that the Navy didn't go in there right away with guns blazing. Obama didn't try to run the show from a political standpoint.
Yes, I am being supportive of Obama in this case. I believe in this case he deserves it.
No, I never voted for him and I am not a Democrat. It's just that Obama did the right thing.
I was focusing more on Biden's comment... didn't Colin Powell make a comment to that effect, around the same time?
http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=5575.0
OK. sorry. But in any event you could probably say something like that at any time in the past and it would have come true in one way or another. And you said that too.
I agree with Don on this one. Then again the GOP are not looking to praise Obama. It is not in their self interest. I think he handled it well, but I thought it was a bit of a no brainer. I didn't see this as much of a test. N. Korea breaking off six party talks and restarting their nuclear weapons program is more of a test to me.
Quote from: Squirl on April 14, 2009, 02:36:44 PM
I agree with Don on this one. Then again the GOP are not looking to praise Obama. It is not in their self interest. I think he handled it well, but I thought it was a bit of a no brainer. I didn't see this as much of a test. N. Korea breaking off six party talks and restarting their nuclear weapons program is more of a test to me.
I agree...
(https://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q75/djmillerbucket/cartoons/toon041509.gif)
shooter,
it's my understanding that they CAN be armed but no weapons are to be in sight and they have to be secured(locked up) when in port.
Thanks... I'm googling now trying to find a reference. Please post if you have one.
I wonder if externally mounted weapons that are obscured using tarps are acceptable?
If it wasn't for the principle of the ordeal or to stand ground against future pirate action it would have been cheaper to pay them. Can you imagine what the cost of deployment of the navy and other agencies to this crisis.
Redoverfarm,
I sense the creation of a new cabinet position...THE PIRATE CZAR. He/she will over see the Pirate Homeland Ultra Defense Department. Using the acronym of PHUDD, the Pirate Czar's code name will be Elmer. I think we could get this done with a paltry $150 billion per year.
reference is from the bill o'reilly show on monday(?). i don't think tarped deck guns would be acceptable but i like the idea ;D.
The cost to deploy the navy would be high... but heck they have to be somewhere and they are getting paid anyway. Give them some target practice while they are waiting for something substantial!! :)
Reply #44 on: April 14, 2009, 05:34:44 PM
- Accurate cartoon. Appeasement never solves the problem.
Place a Marine escort team on ships as they pass through that area. I'd think 3-4 would be enough to drive off (eliminate/remove/terminate?) any pirate attack. They disembark once the ship has traveled beyond the threat area and embark on the next ship traveling on a reverse course. This would address concerns of arming merchantmen. Just a thought...
One aircraft carrier should be able to solve this. My understanding is they have almost 300 miles or an area the size of Texas to monitor. The F-15's can be every where within seconds. They can protect ships from every country. A little diplomacy in this too.
It would be far cheaper to put a squad of men on each ship passing through the area.
FYI - You may have seen another account of this that tries to highlight Obama's indecision. This is a different viewpoint.
Not sure who the source of this info is, apparently a USNA grad from the late 50's who is passing this on from people in the know...This version seems to be the most authentic thus far.
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 05:59:28 -0400
Subject: Pirate Saga Details
Forwarded FYI. This sounds like the real story as it fits with other accounts but makes more sense.
Your "Real" story is not exactly the way I heard it, and probably has a few political twists thrown in to stir the pot. Rather than me trying to correct it, I'll just tell you what I found out from my contacts at NSWC (Naval Special Warfare Command) Norfolk and at SOCOM (Special Operations Command) Tampa.
First though, let me orient you to familiarize you with the "terrain."
In Africa from Djibouti at the southern end of the Red Sea eastward through the Gulf of Aden to round Cape Guardafui at the easternmost tip of Africa (also known as "The Horn of Africa") is about a 600 nm transit before you stand out into the Indian Ocean. That transit is comparable in distance to that from the mouth of theMississippi at New Orleans to the tip of Florida at Key West-- except that 600 nm over there is infested with Somalia pirates.
Ships turning southward at the Horn of Africa transit the SLOC (Sea Lane of Commerce) along the east coast of Somalia because of the prevailing southerly currents there. It's about 1,500 nm on to Mombassa, which is just south of the equator in Kenya. Comparably, that's about the transit distance from Portland Maine down the east coast of the US to Miami Florida. In other words, the ocean area being patrolled by our naval forces off the coast of Somalia is comparable to that in the Gulf of Mexicofrom the Mississippi River east to Miami then up the eastern seaboard to Maine.
Second, let me globally orient you from our Naval Operating Base in Norfolk, VA, east across the Atlantic to North Africa, thence across the Med to Suez in Egypt, thence southward down the Red Sea to Djibouti at the Gulf of Aden, thence eastward to round Cape Guardafui at the easternmost tip of Africa, and thence southerly some 300 miles down the east cost of Somali out into the high seas of the Indian Ocean to the position of MV ALABAMA is a little more than 7,000 nm, and plus-nine time-zones ahead of EST.
Hold that thought, in that, a C-17 transport averaging a little better than 400 kts (SOG) takes the best part of 18 hours to make that trip. In the evening darkness late Thursday night, a team of Navy SEALs from NSWC (Naval Surface Warfare Center) Norfolk parachuted from such a C-17 into the black waters (no refraction of light) of the Indian Ocean-- close-aboard to our 40,000 ton amphibious assault ship, USS BOXER (LHD 4), the flagship of our ESG (Expeditionary Strike Group) in the AOR (Area Of Responsibility, the Gulf of Aden). They not only parachuted in with all of their "equipment," they had their own inflatable boats, RHIB's (Rigid Hull, Inflatable Boats) with them for over-water transport. They went into BOXER's landing dock, debarked, and staged for the rescue-- Thursday night.
And, let me comment on time-late: In that the SEAL's quick response-- departing ready-alert in less than 4 hours from Norfolk-- supposedly surprised POTUS's staff, whereas President Obama was miffed not to get his "cops" there before the Navy. He reportedly questioned his staff, "Will 'my' FBI people get there before the Navy does?" It took the FBI almost 12 hours to put together a team and get them packed-up-- for an "at sea" rescue. The FBI was trying to tell him that they are not practiced to do this-- Navy SEALs are. But, BHO wanted the FBI there "to help," that is, carry out the Attorney General's (his) orders to negotiate the release of Captain Phillips peacefully-- because apparently he doesn't trust GW's military to carry out his "political guidance."
The flight of the FBI's passenger jet took a little less than 14 hours at 500-some knots to get to Djibouti. BOXER'S helos picked them up and transported them out to the ship. The Navy SEALs were already there, staged, and ready to act by the time POTUS's FBI arrived on board latter that evening. Notably, the first request by the OSC (On Scene Commander) that early Friday morning to take them out and save Captain Phillips was denied, to wit: "No, wait until 'my' FBI people get there."
Third, please consider a candid assessment of ability that finds that the FBI snipers had never practiced shooting from a rolling, pitching, yawing, surging, swaying, heaving platform-- and, target-- such as a ship and a lifeboat on the high seas. Navies have been doing since Admiral Nelson who had trained "Marines" to shoot muskets from the ship's rigging-- ironically, he was killed at sea in HMS VICTORY at the Battle of Trafalgar by a French Marine rifleman that shot him from the rigging of the French ship that they were grappling alongside.
Notably, when I was first training at USNA in 1955, the Navy was doing it with a SATU, Small Arms Training Unit, based at our Little Creek amphib base. Now, Navy SEAL's, in particular SEAL Team SIX (The "DevGru") based at NSWC (Naval Surface Warfare Center) at Little Creek do that training now, and hone their skills professionally-- daily. Shooting small arms from a ship is more of an accomplished "Art Form" than it is a practiced skill. When you are "in the bubble" and "in tune" with the harmonic motion you find, through practice, that you are "able to put three .308 slugs inside the head of a quarter at 100 meters, in day or night-- or, behind a camouflaged net or a thin enclosure, such as a superstructure bulkhead. Yes, we have the monocular scopes that can "see" heat-- and, draw a bead on it. SEALs are absolutely expert at it-- with the movie clips to prove it.
Okay, now try to imagine patrolling among the boats fishing everyday out on the Grand Banks off our New England coast, and then responding to a distress call from down around the waters between Florida and the Bahamas. Three points for you to consider here: (1) Time-Distance-Speed relationships for ships on the high seas, for instance, at a 25-knot SOA (Speed Of Advance) it takes 24 hours to make good 600 nm-- BAINBRIDGE did. (2) Fishermen work on the high seas, and (3) The best place to hide as a "fisherman" pirate is among other fishermen
Early Wednesday morning, 4/8/2009, MV ALABAMA is at sea in the IO about 300 miles off the (east) coast of Somalia en route to Mombassa Kenya. Pirates in small boat start harassing her, and threatening her with weapons. MV ALABAMA's captain sent out the distress call by radio, and ordered his Engineer to shut down the engines as well as the ship-service electrical generators-- in our lingo, "Go dark and cold." He informed his crew by radio what was happening, and ordered them to go to an out-of-the-way compartment and lock themselves in it-- from the inside. He would stay in the pilot house to "negotiate" with the pirates.
The pirates boarded, captured the Captain, and ordered him to start the engines. He said he would order his Engineer to do so, and he called down to Engine Control on the internal communication system, but got no answer. The lead pirate ordered two of his four men to go down and find him and get the engines started.
Inside a ship without any lights is like the definition of dark. The advantage goes to the people who work and live there. They jumped the two pirates in a dark passageway. Both pirates lost their weapons, but one managed to scramble and get away. The other they tied up, put tape over his mouth and a knife at his throat.
Other members of the crew opened the drain cocks on the pirates boat and cast it adrift. It foundered and sunk. The scrambling pirate made it back to the pilot house and told of his demise. The pirates took the Captain at gun point, and told him to launch one of his rescue boats (not a life boat, per se). As he was lowering the boat for them, the crew appeared with the other pirate to negotiate a trade. The crew let their hostage go to soon, and the pirates kept the captain. But, he purposefully had lowered the boat so it would jam.
With the rescue boat jammed, the pirates jumped over to a lifeboat and released it as the captain jumped in the water. They fired at him, made him stop, and grabbed him out of the water. Now, as night falls in the vastness of the Indian Ocean, we have the classic "Mexican" standoff, to wit: A life-boat that is just that, a life-boat adrift without any means of propulsion except oars and paddles; and, a huge (by comparison) Motor Vessel Container Ship adrift with a crew that is not going to leave their captain behind. The pirates are enclosed under its shelter-covering, holding the captain as their hostage. The crew is hunkered down in their ship waiting for the "posse" to arrive.
After receiving MV ALABAMA'S distress call, USS BAINBRIDGE (DDG 96) was dispatched by the ESG commander to respond to ALABAMA's distress call. At best sustainable speed, she arrived on scene the day after-- that is, in the dark of that early Thursday morning. As BAINBRIDGE quietly and slowly, at darkened-ship without any lights to give her away, arrived on scene, please consider a recorded interview with the Chief Engineer of MV ALABAMA describing BAINBRIDGE's arrival. He said it was something else "... to see the Navy slide in there like a greyhound!" He then said as she slipped in closer he could see the "Stars and Stripes" flying from her masthead. He got choked up saying it was the "...proudest moment of my life."
Phew! Let that sink in.
Earlier in the day, one of the U.S. Navy's Maritime Patrol Aircraft, a fixed wing P3C, flew over to recon the scene. They dropped a buoy with a radio to the pirates so that the Navy's interpreter could talk with the pirates. When BAINBRIDGE arrived, the pirates thought the radio to be a beaconing device, and threw it overboard. They wanted a satellite telephone so that they could call home for help. Remember now, they are fishermen, not "Rocket Scientists," in that, they don't know that we can intercept the phone transmission also.
MV ALABAMA provided them with a satellite phone. They called home back to "somebody" in Eyl Somalia (so that we now know where you live) to come out and get them. The "somebody" in Eyl said they would be out right away with other hostages, like 54 of them from other countries, and that they would be coming out in two of their pirated ships. Right-- and, the tooth fairy will let you have sex with her. Yea, in paradise. The "somebody" in Eyl just chalked up four more expendables as overhead for "the cost of operation." Next page.
Anyway, ESG will continue to "watch" Eyl for any ships standing out.
The Navy SEAL team, SEAL TEAM SIX, from NSWC briefed the OSC (Commander Castellano, CO BAINBRIDGE) on how they could rescue the captain from the life boat with swimmers-- "Combat Swimmers," per se. That plan was denied by POTUS because it put the captain in danger-- and, involved killing the pirates.
The FBI negotiators arrived on scene, and talked the pirates into sending their wounded man over for treatment Saturday morning. Later that afternoon, the SEAL's sent over their RHIB with food and water to recon the life boat but the pirates shot at it. They could have taken them out then (from being fired upon) but were denied again being told that the captain was not in "imminent danger." The FBI negotiators calmed the situation by informing the pirates of threatening weather as they could see storm clouds closing from the horizon, and offered to tow the life boat. The pirates agreed, and BAINBRIDGE took them under tow in their wake at 30 meters-- exactly 30 meters, which is exactly the distance the SEALs practice their shooting skills.
With the lifeboat under tow, riding comfortably bow-down on BAINBRIDGE's wake-wave ("rooster tail"), had a 17-second period of harmonic motion, and at the end of every half-period (8.5 seconds) was steady on. The light-enhanced (infra-red heat) monocular scopes on the SEAL's .308 caliber Mark 11 Mod 0 H&K suppressor-fitted sniper rifles easily imaged their target very clearly. Pirates in a life boat at 30-meters could be compared to fish in a barrel. All that was necessary was to take out the plexiglass window so that it would not deflect the trajectory of the high velocity .308 round. So, a sniper (one of four) with a wad-cutter round (a flaxen sabot) would take out the window a split second before the kill-shot-- no change in sight-picture, just the window blowing out, clean.
Now, here's the part BHO's "whiz kids" knew as well as the Navy hierarchy, including CO BAINBRIDGE and CO SEAL TEAM SIX. It's the law in Article 19 of Appendix L in the "Convention of the High Seas" that the Commanding Officer of a US Ship on the high seas is obligated to respond to distress signals from any flagged ship (US or otherwise), and protect the life and property thereof when deemed to be in IMMINENT DANGER. So, in the final analysis, it would be Captain Castellano call as to "Imminent Danger," and that he alone was obligated (duty bound) to act accordingly.
Got the picture?
After medically attending to the wounded pirate, and feeding him, come first light (from the east) on Easter Sunday morning and the pirates saw they were being towed further out to sea (instead of westward toward land), the wounded pirate demanded to be returned to the lifeboat. There would BE NO more negotiations-- and, the four Navy SEAL snipers "in the bubble" went "Unlock." The pirate holding Captain Philips raised the gun to his head, and IMMINENT DANGER was so observed and noted in the Log as CO BAINBRIDGE gave the classic order: WEAPONS RELEASED! I can hear the echo in my earpiece now, "On my count (from 8.5 seconds), 3, 2, 1, !" POP, BANG! Out went the window, followed by three simultaneous shots. The scoreboard flashed: "GAME OVER, GAME OVER-- NAVY 3, PIRATES 0!"
I hope you found the above informative as best I know it-- and, please excuse me in that after more than 50 years the Navy is still in me. I submit thatAMERICA is going to make a comeback, and more than likely it'll be on the back of our cherished youth serving with honor in Our military.
So, let's
Look Up, Get Up-- and, Never Give Up!
http://www.rense.com/general85/vers.htm
That was an interesting read, but you have to suspend belief when you get to this point:
"Shooting small arms from a ship is more of an accomplished "Art Form" than it is a practiced skill. When you are "in the bubble" and "in tune" with the harmonic motion you find, through practice, that you are "able to put three .308 slugs inside the head of a quarter at 100 meters, in day or night"
I call BS. Overwhelming amounts!
"Yikes... a running animal in dense woods is an unethical shot."
Sigh. Respectfully I have done this many times. The trick is to spot an opening in the path of the animal you want to bring down then trigger the shot as it crosses thru that area that is clear of brush. Not an amateur shot but good to go for a trained woodsman, marksman ...
I too know of folks who take a running shot in the woods. More often than not they are unsuccessful. Lots of un-controlled variables go into hitting a bounding animal... especially one in trees or over rocks and brush. Any mis-timing on the part of the hunter, or an animal that zigs instead of zags, and you can have a gut shot critter. It is a possible shot, but not one I can take with a clear conscious. I will attempt a shot at a running animal in the open, but not in dense woods.
Two years ago I found a gut shot 6 point muley on opening day in southern NM. The carcass was still warm. I gutted it, waited an hour for somebody to show up, and then put my tag on it and took it home after leaving a note at the gut pile. I never got a call.
My overwhelming opinion of hunters / shooters are that most of them imagine themselves to be much more skilled than they actually are, and they tend to embellish their accomplishments. They know very little about actual ballistics, practice very little, and don't seem to be interested in improving. They pull out their rifle once a year, take a test shot or two, and consider themselves good to go.
I also know some very good marksmen who consistently make shots in the wind that are nothing short of amazing. I competed in a regional high power shoot this spring in El Paso and I was scoring for Ron Zerr. Gusting / swirling winds (gusts to 35mph) and his first shot at 600 yards was a 10. His second was an X. He shot a 197 out of 200 with only 3 nines for that stage. Scary. (note.. for those of you who don't follow shooting sports, this was an across-the course match, all shot with iron sights.)
There was a post on here awhile ago (year maybe?) about a guy who was bragging that he could consistently make shots at 2000yards with a scoped .308. I refrained comment. Check your ballistic tables to see where the .308 goes sub-sonic.
I worked with several snipers and one claimed to know a guy that could hit a target at 2000 yards with the .308. He said this guy was the best in his unit with most snipers having an effective range around 1200 to 1500 yards and the afore mentioned guy having an effective range over 1800 yards.. Of course, these are military snipers who will spend an entire day making a single shot over and over for thousands of rounds.
Most hunters do not get enough practice to become truly proficient at hitting a moving target at range. I believe most don't even practice shooting at a moving target at all, unless they are skeet shooting.
I believe the vast majority of hunters so not need to hunt to put food on the table. They shoot for sport. They and their families enjoy the meat, but nobody would starve if their hunt was unsuccessful.
I believe hunters in general respect the wildlife they hunt. Putting it all together, to me, means you do not attempt shots that are iffy, at excessive range or under poor visibility; shots where there is as much or more likelihood that the animal will not be put down cleanly.
I also believe there are a great number of shooters who are not at all as good as they believe they are.
Quote from: pagancelt on April 23, 2009, 02:18:14 PM
I worked with several snipers and one claimed to know a guy that could hit a target at 2000 yards with the .308. He said this guy was the best in his unit with most snipers having an effective range around 1200 to 1500 yards and the afore mentioned guy having an effective range over 1800 yards.. Of course, these are military snipers who will spend an entire day making a single shot over and over for thousands of rounds.
So that exactly proves my point. He either lied to you, or was lied to himself and did not know his craft. The .308 (or 7.62 NATO, whatever) has an issue with velocity past 1400yards or so, usually shorter (1200 yds). It comes down below the supersonic point, and when that shock wave catches up with the projectile, accuracy goes to hell, random things occur, and soon the bullet tumbles. Nobody depends on the 7.62 past 1000M. Shots have been made further, but can not be depended upon.
Do you want to guess at what the drop is for a .308 173 grain bullet (M118) with a MV of 2600fps out at 1400 yards?
Most folks don't have experience with medium to long range shooting, and therefore fall easy prey to urban legends. Find a highpower club and go watch a shoot sometime.
Check out the maximum effective range of the .50BMG... still short of 2000yards!
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Chamber/3864/sniper.htm
NM,
Perhaps he exaggerated some, I don't know. He said they had practiced compensating for bullet trajectory by aiming high and they did this for an entire day, making the same shot, at the same range, over and over, so when they had to do something similar in the field they had experience. I haven't seen him in a few years so it's doubtful I'll ever be able to ask for further clarification.
The problem with maximum effective ranges is some people can, and do, exceed them. Remember Corporal R. Furlong who while in Afghanistan made a kill shot at 2,657 yards with a .50 BMG, far exceeding the stated maximum effective range. How much was skill and how much was luck is open to conjecture, but the point remains he made the shot.
The 300 mags (Win Or Weatherby) would offer a significant increase in range
I know for a fact that the 300 Weatherby will blow away the 308 Win in accuracy and range (my off the shelf Remmington Classic shoots well under an inch at 200 yards)
downside is it really has some recoil but in a 14 pound sniper rifle that would not be a problem
the 308 drops about 60inches at 500 yards while the 300 wby drops about 30 inches and is still zipping at
2300 fps
Carlos Hathcock also made some very, very long kills with a .50. Most notably a courier VC on a bicycle. But he did this by knowing exactly where the bike was going to be, and where he was going to shoot from. He zeroed the .50 into a tree next to the bike path prior to the bike getting there.
A .50 BMG has a ballistic coefficient of over 1.0. It may be stable well beyond 2000 yards. A .308 has issues beyond 1200 yards, and is not reliable. First order approximation of drop using a ballistic calculator shows the drop for a .308 to be 1000 inches at 1500 yards. (83 feet!!!) I can't find a calculator that will support 2000yards. http://www.biggameinfo.com/index.aspx?page=/balcalc.ascx
Also.. the amount of drop change between 1475 and 1500 yards is over four feet. What do you think the trajectory is going to be like at 2000Y? That bullet is pretty much going to be dropping straight down.
The point that I am trying to make however, is that "hitting a target at 2000Y" and "consistently hitting a target at 2000Y" are completely different.
Give a million monkeys a million M24's over a million years, and probably one of them will hit a target at 2000 yards (and possibly write a Shakespeare play in the off-time).
I don't doubt that the military folks played around with way-out-of-range shooting. But for them or anyone to represent that as serious training is ludicrous.
You don't have to know if he exaggerated or not. Don't let anyone promote BS crap that is easily discredited with a small amount of research.
P.S. 300 Mag is a great round! 338 Lapua is sweet too... and that is easily an 1800M round.