CountryPlans Forum

If you're not sure maybe you should read this. http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/yearoftheslave.html (http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/yearoftheslave.html)

Live free or die.

No I am not free! My husband will be paying for me for the rest of his life.

Were you cheap, Stink?

Free -- not on your life.  I try to exercise freedom and one day it may get me into trouble but I am not even free to take a local or cross flight country without fear of being harassed by the TSA. 

So much for travel.  I seldom make a move on my own property without breaking an un-Constitutional ex-post facto law.

Live free or die is right. 

I'm willing to take my chances and was willing to die if the authorities tried to forcefully remove me during the fire.  They could see that and backed off.  My attitude is not going to change. 

That still does not change the idea that the oppression is there waiting to be exerted to the maximum amount they think they can get away with.  People living free is not a good thing for them.  Others may get the idea that they want to do the same -- then where would they be.  The subjects forgetting that they are subjects and actually thinking that the government is composed of PUBLIC SERVANTS.  Perish the thought.  d*

According to my husband I am driving him to the poor house, so I think the answers is No, I am not cheap.

Well Stink I would rather be in the poor house than the nut house.  Come to think of it I am already half there  [waiting]

You can drive, Stink? hmm :)

I am driving him in the Kubota.

Do you guys ever not hijack a thread? This one got hijacked after one post. Pretty efficent.  d*

We love you ScottA  ;D

Quote from: ScottA on April 08, 2009, 07:51:01 PM
Do you guys ever not hijack a thread? This one got hijacked after one post. Pretty efficent.  d*

They can't help themselves  [waiting]

In the words of an immortal philosopher; "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose" 

------Janis Joplin

lyrics penned by Kris Kristofferson. I like his version as well. I have both.

There. Another hijack completed.   ;D





Free? compared to where/what?

I voted yes.


"Free? compared as to where/what"

MtnDon, I don't type very well or with any speed..........a lot of things to consider on this subject.





sparks



Ps...Good thread ScottA

I'd say for this topic, free as described in the article Scott posted and as described in the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

The States also illegally remove our freedom - Interstate commerce is not to be taxed but - ever try to get a truckload of produce across state lines without being taxed, fee'd and whatever else goes with that? hmm

Quote from: StinkerBell on April 08, 2009, 07:38:17 PM
I am driving him in the Kubota.

The only Kubota I have seen around here is the one my manure supplier uses to load my trailer.

   America . . . Where your "Free" to do as your told.

   Or, suffer the consequences . . .  :(

It's all relative. We certainly have more freedom than some other societies. Are we losing freedoms long taken for granted? Of course. Are there people willing to fight to regain those stolen freedoms? Yes, but they are quickly locked away. Look at what's happened to the so called "eco-terrorists" who burned SUVs and destroyed logging and mining equipment. Did they destroy private property? Of course. Was private property destroyed during the American Revolution? You bet. Our government will eventually do something so egregious that it precipitates a mass revolt, which is why our elected "leaders" are always attempting to take away the right to bare arms.

I know the limits of my freedom, and where my government wants me in the socio-economic ladder. If knowledge is power, and by extension freedom, than I am both powerful and free.

Did I get the thread back on track, Don?

For most of my life I have felt I was free. It's only in the last 10 or so years that has changed. The feeling like you are being forced or coerced in a certain direction. The attitude by government and business that you are just a number and have no say so help shape this feeling of lost freedom. A general disrespect by those who serve our needs, rude cashiers and clerks add to it "Sir" became "hey you". Excessive rules and regulations, no hunting, no fishing, no camping, do this, don't do that, every day it's something new. I'm no longer allowed to mow the grass in front of my house by the lake without a permit because it's wildlife habitat. We've only been mowing it for 30 years. Can't cut trees or brush either. What they call habitat protection is really loss of access. I can't put in my own septic because it might hurt some contractors profits. The list goes on and on. Americans are free to go shopping or stay home and that's about it. For pretty much everything else it's do as you are told. It's wasn't always like this.

Those in power have been at this since they first convinced a bunch of farmers they'd be better off without an English king ruling them.

Sorry...  :(

I forgot to add the Declaration of Independence.  Remember it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Declaration_of_Independence

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." 

(The right to provide shelter for our families unimpeded and without penalty?  Is that a pursuit of happiness?  Does it harm someone?)



This sentence has been called "one of the best-known sentences in the English language"[2] and "the most potent and consequential words in American history".[3] The passage has often been used to promote the rights of marginalized groups, and came to represent for many people a moral standard for which the United States should strive. This view was greatly influenced by Abraham Lincoln, who considered the Declaration to be the foundation of his political philosophy,[4] and promoted the idea that the Declaration is a statement of principles through which the United States Constitution should be interpreted.

Many colonists, however, had developed a different conception of the empire. Because the colonies were not directly represented in Parliament, colonists argued that Parliament had no right to levy taxes upon them. This tax dispute was part of a larger divergence between British and American interpretations of the British Constitution and the extent of Parliament's authority in the colonies.[7] The orthodox British view, dating from the Glorious Revolution of 1688, was that Parliament was the supreme authority throughout the empire, and so by definition anything Parliament did was constitutional.[8] In the colonies, however, the idea had developed that the British Constitution recognized certain fundamental rights that no government—not even Parliament—could violate.[9] After the Townshend Acts, some essayists even began to question whether Parliament had any legitimate jurisdiction in the colonies at all.[10

"King George had rejected reconciliation and was even hiring foreign mercenaries to use against the colonies, "it is necessary that the exercise of every kind of authority under the said crown should be totally suppressed".  Our own military and Swat teams have been loosed on us.  Remember Seattle?

It will soon be common to see military all over the US.  Currently all over the floods up North for good, the camel has his nose in the tent.  People are being accustomed to seeing them deployed here.  When will Skeletor Chertoff (The Isreali National) decide that dissent is cause to use them too?  Likely as soon as the system collapses a bit more and the people decide that the ruling class is the cause.  It will come.

I am not surprised to see more who feel free than those who do not feel that way, and I don't hold it against them.

There are many more who are afraid to look at current events and the state of the US - in fact the world,  than those who are willing to face the fear and see what is happening  I fully expect them to continue to live under the illusion that they are free rather than face reality.....

I'm not suprised either glenn. I doubt many people even give much thought to it and in fact many probly like it the way it is.

I voted "No".

I'm proud of you, Stink. :)

Quote from: ScottA on April 09, 2009, 12:44:12 PM
I'm not suprised either glenn. I doubt many people even give much thought to it and in fact many probly like it the way it is.

I agree, Scott.  People don't want their utopia rocked even if they have to avoid looking at the facts.  The elite will leave them to their TV, Mainstream Oil Soaked Media Whores, as long as they don't make waves  and allow them to do whatever they want with the tax dollars and lives of their children.  Yes - we are just meat breeders for the wars of the elite.  I for one would not want to have to say my child died for this country because it is for the greed of the elite.  Not the protection of our country at this time, as most of our children joining the military at first are lead to believe.

Having my children's lives stolen for oil and Corporate profits is not the same as them dying for their country.  Having them participate in collateral damage of the lives and property of innocents in poor foreign countries to plunder their goods is not my type of morality. 

Free --- am I free or am I a slave to the blood guilt of the criminal  leaders of this country?  I am not a willing participant.  It was not the desire of the founders of our country.  I hope to not be held accountable by association.  It is exactly what my ancestors came to this country and homesteaded because of.  Freedom from oppression - true freedom.

MAJORITY OF GOVERNMENT ACTIONS ARE UNCONSTITUTIONAL

By Andrew C. Wallace
February 28, 2009
NewsWithViews.com

My purpose is not to agitate a civil war, that may already have started, but to prevent one at all costs, except for our freedoms. Americans were betrayed by a majority in congress of both parties for money and power. Our jobs, benefits, prosperity, and freedom are gone, or disappearing rapidly because government officials and judges openly violate our constitution. Every foreign born worker, every free trade agreement, every action by the private federal reserve bank, and every unconstitutional act are responsible for all of our unemployment and pain

Do not curse me for the bad news that you don't want to believe until you have verified the facts yourself, feelings and media lies don't count as truth, otherwise you will end up just like the good Germans who followed Hitler to their destruction. Use this as a guide to verify the truth.

Patriots must defeat, impeach, and prosecute the traitors in government with the rule of law while making it very uncomfortable for them, but not harming a hair on their heads. Beg traitorous officials for nothing, call them names, picket them, and in all ways let them feel your absolute contempt; for if we should fail to get them out of office, the populace, when they feel the pain of total deprivation will revolt against the usurpers in a killing rage. If the government does not expect a deadly response for their treason, why are the police being militarized, military conducting training in cities, government trying to take our weapons, with large internment camps at the ready? Shades of Hitler's Holocaust, history repeats.
http://www.newswithviews.com/Wallace/andrew117.htm

COMMUNISM THRIVES: OBAMA'S DEADLY "CHANGE" LIVES ON

By Greg Evensen
April 9, 2009
NewsWithViews.com

Never in my lifetime did I believe that I would ever witness the takeover of our nation by revolutionary forces dedicated to one socialistic goal. Naively, I held on to the presumption that when it REALLY came down to it, this nation would not allow communism the final victory. I based my life and my family's safety and prosperity on that view. I just could not accept that my fellow citizens would encourage the rape and murder of our history, the betrayal of our collective sacrifices in times of war, and defeat in the centuries old debate over how much control Washington should exert over its populace.

We have experienced the destruction of our republic in a way that leaves virtually no possibility of a systemic change reversal toward our former sovereign status. Collective forces including global bankers, industrialists, social engineers specializing in tyranny, and the corrupted elites of every nation have realized their final victory over freedom, liberty and national identity.

The incredibly painful reality is that we have allowed for creeping incrementalism to wear us down for the final assault waged over the previous two years. It was during this time, that Wall Street, the banks, investment houses and corporate businesses crested in lunar orbit with unsustainable and unjustifiable run-ups in share values and the profane "margins" in the derivatives markets. Military misadventures killed our troops and our national morale. Universities have continuously and unrelentingly driven morality from the minds of our young and taught us that right is wrong and wrong is right. Public schools would take a pregnant girl to get an abortion, but go apoplectic if students ate ice cream at lunch.
http://www.newswithviews.com/Evensen/greg138.htm  Both of these writers are retired police officers  - read their credits at the bottom of the articles

Stink I was with you. 

Quote from: pagancelt on April 09, 2009, 07:41:21 AM
...Look at what's happened to the so called "eco-terrorists" who burned SUVs and destroyed logging and mining equipment.  ...

So you're advocating destruction of private property if a person does not like what the other person is doing?

I have a real problem with that. I have been a small time victim of such eco-terrorism, twice. Both occurrences were not aimed at me personally, but rather at anyone who happened down a legal forest service road. Two different types of tire puncturing devices were used. I was understandably upset, just as upset as the owners of the torched SUV's, the damaged heavy equipment and the burned condos in Vail, CO. Those ELF Ecommandos are no better than the Somalian pirates, IMO. They are not revolutionaries; they are criminals.

Quote from: ScottA on April 09, 2009, 08:10:40 AM
...Excessive rules and regulations, no hunting, no fishing, no camping, do this, don't do that, every day it's something new...

Scott, I have to totally agree with that statement. To the list of "No's" I would add the ongoing loss of trails and roads suitable for 4WD, ATV and dirt motorcycle recreation.

Some readers will know of my 20+years of activism on the pro side of using our public lands for responsible mechanized recreation. I have been an avid, some say rabid, defender of the right to use existing trails and roads on public lands, with my efforts mainly in NM, CO and UT. Some battles were won, some were lost, many were compromises. One bright side moment occurred a couple years ago here in NM with the designation by the BLM of an OHV area along with trail development between several motorcycle and 4WD groups. It paid to be involved in that process. Currently there is a round of management changes in the discussion stage with the local National Forests. Plus one with the BLM.

One thing I learned along the way is there are many, too many, irresponsible people out there. I run into them, or evidence of them all the time. There are also a great many more people who wish to use their dirt bikes, their ATV's and their 4WD vehicles than there were 20 years ago. I have seen some of my favorite  areas deteriorate to the point that I no longer feel good about going there. One form of abuse is known as "trail braiding" where idiots can't keep themselves to an existing trail. They go off winding here and there, wherever they want. Another is the wanton disregard for "posted, closed" signage. I may not like to see a place placed off limits, but I will not run over the signs, destroy gates or tear down fences. A third form of abuse is the leaving behind of trash, for which there is no reason, ever. I have also seen areas so heavily used for camping that you can not lift a rock or dig a hole without finding human excrement. Many times it is not even properly buried.

When you combine irresponsible people with too many people you end up with more regulations and more closures. It's not the fault of the government. It's the fault of too many ordinary dumb$hit people.

I grudgingly admit that I can understand why some closures happen. However, many times the proposals are much too restrictive, closing or limiting access in too severe a manner. That is why I persist in following what's going on, I go to meetings, I write letters and emails, etc.

So, just looking at this one narrow aspect of freedoms, I agree there are more rules and restrictions than I would like to see. But if there were no rules governing the use of our public lands, our lands may be abused to the point of no recovery.

One of the freedoms myself and my fellow 4WD enthusiasts enjoy is the freedom to protest and the freedom to speak our mind about our concerns.

I believe I got a little long winded there, sorry about that. And yes, I'll agree this rant of mine is about only a small small area of freedoms. But somehow I believe it relates to everything else.

I can understand you being upset about your tires. I'd be pissed off too. However, the logging and mining companies are destroying the natural landscape allegedly owned by all Americans because our so called leaders have given them permission to "harvest" the natural resources. Are you advocating the willful, complete destruction of America's natural landscape so a few greedy, wealthy white men can make even more money?

What I am saying is a young man gets life in prison for burning some SUVs while bankers who destroy thousands of lives sit in their mansions and laugh. He sits in his jail cell while executives, in collusion with elected "leaders," knowingly illegally dump toxic waste, lie, cheat, and steal from the American people and reap million of dollars per year in pay and bonuses and do not face any serious threat of being prosecuted for their crimes.

Who is guilty of the greater property crime?

I have a serious problem with that.

As my parents always said, "two wrongs do not make a right". Just because justice has been delivered unequally does not give those with a grievance the right to destroy private or public property.

I do not advocate willful complete destruction of our natural landscape. To stick to trees for a moment, forests need to be managed properly for long term forest health. The key word is properly. Nobody today advocates clear cutting of our forests as was done in past years. Mature trees can be harvested. Also, thinning out of the small trees that overcrowd the forest is necessary to allow the other trees to flourish.

The forested acreage in the USA has been stable since 1907. Today's forest land area amounts to about 70 percent of the area that was forested in 1630. Some of it has been redistributed; there is fewer acreage in the east, but more in the west. Much of that missing 30% has been turned into agricultural land, or has been developed for housing. Our forests are not in as bad shape as the greens would have us believe.

The green groups make ample use of the court system to block both commercial and non-commercial uses of the forests on public lands. They know there is no need to resort to violence and property destruction. I wish the same could be said for all of the green movements adherents.

As for the bankers and investments crooks, there is no doubt in my mind that they have hurt millions, likely billions, of people. I don't know how or if they will ever be made to pay for their crimes. However, as I have said before we can not countenance one sort of crime to counterbalance some other miscarriage of justice.

Jim Purcey interviewed by Dave von Kleist

This is an interesting discussion of freedom in the US and licensing

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-88488915456851216

This is from the California State Constitution


so how come you 'need' a fishing license -- it is a Right under the constitution







CALIFORNIA CONSTITUTION
ARTICLE 1  DECLARATION OF RIGHTS


Section 25.  The people shall have the right to fish upon and from
the public lands of the State and in the waters thereof, excepting
upon lands set aside for fish hatcheries, and no land owned by the
State shall ever be sold or transferred without reserving in the
people the absolute right to fish thereupon; and no law shall ever be
passed making it a crime for the people to enter upon the public
lands within this State for the purpose of fishing in any water
containing fish that have been planted therein by the State;
provided, that the legislature may by statute, provide for the season
when and the conditions under which the different species of fish
may be taken.

We must destroy all Constitutions equally.

Clear Cutting.

I don't have a problem with clear cutting in moderate sized blocks as long as it is immediately followed by replanting with penalties for not doing so.  I have flown extensively over the western forests that have been clear cut and replanted and it looks like many of them are ready to be cut again.  Good job, forest industry.

The problem is we have become a bunch of corporate and environmental wacko abused peons who have seen all of our jobs slip away to other countries.  Free -- yes - free to join the food lines of the socialists state sponsored welfare programs.  Union demands and insurance company workman's comp ripoffs have made it impossible to do business in the United States.

Don't get me started on licences. I find it outragous that I must pay a fee every year for the privilage of being able to earn a living. For some reason the mechanical trades are picked on. Only the mechanical trades are required to pay licence fees every year in order to work. There are no licences for other trades in Oklahoma. I am also required to carry insurance. To make it worse they can revoke your licence to work for lots of reasons having nothing to do with the actual trade. Traffic tickets, unpaid taxes, criminal charges can all get your licence to work revoked. Why do the licences need to be renewed every year? My drivers licence is good for 8 years yet my plumbing licence expires every year. They think I'll forget how to plumb if they don't charge me a fee? It's nothing more than a tax and control device.

Land access has gotten worse and worse evey year for as long as I can remember. They've put up fences and closed roads on lots of lands where I used to hunt and camp. Many areas now require a permit to hunt or camp for which a fee is charged. I've had to have my wife drop me off in some places because there is no place to park a car anywhere near these areas. this is all by design to keep people out. If they could they'd just post keep out signs.

Quote from: DW on April 10, 2009, 12:31:29 PM
Every one of us who ever got a license or permit to drive, ....... is not free.

::) ::) Gimme a break!

great pics on your site DW

I recognize the Chicago skyline from the Eisenhower Expressway

Quote from: DW on April 10, 2009, 12:54:44 PM

Quote from: MountainDon on April 10, 2009, 12:46:12 PM

Quote from: DW on April 10, 2009, 12:31:29 PM
Every one of us who ever got a license or permit to drive, ....... is not free.

::) ::) Gimme a break!

Why? If you disagree just say so. Don't be an ass about it.

You are right, DW. 

There is a man here who goes strictly by his rights - knows the old laws that are still in effect and will not get a license.  The police are powerless to make him because he knows his rights.   They know him.  He hauls his backhoe and equipment around on a big truck - and yet because he knows and exercises his rights they cannot stop him.  They have tried - he wins in court.

Regarding drivers licenses and freedom... The US Constitution has nothing to say about such things directly. That sort of thing is one of the many items that the individual states are given authority over. (Amendment 10 - Powers of the States and People under Constitution: The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.)

So I'm curious about what "old laws" would give anyone the right to drive without a license. This is quite interesting to me. It must have made the news at some point, someplace?

On a practical front, would it really be okay with most folks to allow anyone to get behind the wheel of an automobile or commercial grade truck or bus, without some training and exhibition of an ability to operate said vehicle in a manner that is safe, not only to themselves but also to the rest of the people they may encounter? Sure, possession of a license does not guarantee the holder will be a safe and prudent driver at all times. But it is a start. If everyone lived on a farm/ranch several miles from their nearest neighbor maybe it would not be such a big deal, to me at least. But with only 20% of the US population residing in population centers of less than 250,00, most drivers are driving among many other people. To me it seems that as one of those other people I have the right to expect other drivers to be tested, not only for basic practical skills, but eyesight, etc.


Furthermore, without a drivers license no insurance company will issue an insurance policy for that driver. Even if one takes the stand that they should not be forced to purchase insurance it is morally wrong, IMO, to operate a vehicle without insurance in case that driver is responsible for an accident and say causes $50K damages or worse. BTW, many states have provision for posting a bond in lieu of purchasing insurance.

I didn't get deep into it, Don,as I don't have a problem with licensing and driving safety,  but I am aware there is something about it and will see if I can find it and post his basis.  He is well known around here and he is also big on property rights - patent rights such, as the info at Team Law.

I also believe all illegal aliens should be able to read our signs and pass the drivers exams.  I have know several people severly injured or killed by thm.

Actually I believe that an illegal should NOT be able to get a US state drivers license, if it comes to that. But I'm at odds with my own state governor on that.  >:(  His theory is that if we give them drivers licenses, then they will buy insurance.  I wonder about that being true or not. We also have a lot of uninsured drivers.

I agree with that too, Don but the government wants them here so they should at least have to pass minimum qualifications I think.

Constitutional Right to Drive.

I found one reference to where he may be coming from but no more explanation of the info there -

"It has been held that the so-called "right" to drive is not, in reality, a right, but is subject to compliance with all applicable laws, rules, and/or regulations. To use the words of one court, it is a "privilege", not a "right".

Seems all courts do not agree with him.

I have found a bit of a fantasy mixed with Constitutional fact explanation here.  A bit of BS with it but I think it explains where he is getting his right.

http://www.spectacle.org/595/drive.html

I believe the "old laws" glen is referencing are what are known as "common law". This can be answered much more thoroughly by doing a search on the so-called "Sovereign Citizen" movement.

The law in particular this man is citing is one by the DMV that says, but don't quote me on this, that only "Motor Vehicles" need to be licensed and all operators of these "Motor Vehicles" need to have a license to operate them on "public roads". However, the DMV cites a "Motor Vehicle" as one used, and this is the part I'm unsure about, as a vehicle being operated commercially. So basically, all truckers, or anyone who uses their car for a living, need to have their rvehicles registered, licensed, and have a drivers license, but no one else does. However, you forfeit this right every time you go into the DMV and get a license plate. And every year that you re-register it, by getting tags or whatever, you continue to confirm you car is not a car, but a "Motor Vehicle" and as such, you must follow federal guidlines by having a drivers license, license plates, and/or tags for it.

Then this debate spirals into the whole deal about how our Constitution limits the powers of the Federal Congress and how they only have power over "Federal Districts/Territories". Yet laws have been disseminated, over the years, to register every American into one of these "Federal Districts/Territories", thus stripping you of your State Citizenship (making you sovereign over the government) and giving you Federal Citizenship, which allows Congress to, as this thread has put it so well, strip you of your freedoms. This is the general break down. I have only begun looking up the whole Sovereign Citizen movement, but what I have seen has peaked my interest greatly and I suggest all do the same and draw your own conclusions from there.

Virginiagent-----Your position reminds me of the income tax resistors who have tried to argue that their income is not really income because they are paid in "non-money" since it is no longer backed by gold-----a somewhat similar semantics based argument you have espoused-----unfortunately the judges they tried it out on ruled they were free to pay their tax in that same "non-money" and also would have plenty of time to continue their study of semantics and those kind of legal theories in their cell.  Don't get me wrong--I don't like taxes or bureaucratic regulations anymore than you do but, frivolous legal arguments will only bring you more grief. Be sure and talk to a good lawyer before you stand in front of a judge---some will be gentle but many more will not,

Here's a good video about freedom and slavery. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHxvVuIxJ9A (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHxvVuIxJ9A)

Here is where I found an affidavit regarding sovereignty http://www.mind-trek.com/index.htm

http://www.mind-trek.com/practicl/index.htm

in particular this one

http://www.mind-trek.com/practicl/afdv-gen.htm

I feel a lot of the value from the above site is in learning how far we have been lead down the path and how it was and is being done.