This bill HR875 now in committee will "regulate" all food production facilities
here is a quote
(14) FOOD PRODUCTION FACILITY- The term `food production facility' means any farm, ranch, orchard, vineyard, aquaculture facility, or confined animal-feeding operation.
SEC. 206. FOOD PRODUCTION FACILITIES.
(a) Authorities- In carrying out the duties of the Administrator and the purposes of this Act, the Administrator shall have the authority, with respect to food production facilities, to--
(1) visit and inspect food production facilities in the United States and in foreign countries to determine if they are operating in compliance with the requirements of the food safety law;
(2) review food safety records as required to be kept by the Administrator under section 210 and for other food safety purposes;
(3) set good practice standards to protect the public and animal health and promote food safety;
(4) conduct monitoring and surveillance of animals, plants, products, or the environment, as appropriate; and
(5) collect and maintain information relevant to public health and farm practices.
(b) Inspection of Records- A food production facility shall permit the Administrator upon presentation of appropriate credentials and at reasonable times and in a reasonable manner, to have access to and ability to copy all records maintained by or on behalf of such food production establishment in any format (including paper or electronic) and at any location, that are necessary to assist the Administrator--
(1) to determine whether the food is contaminated, adulterated, or otherwise not in compliance with the food safety law; or
(2) to track the food in commerce.
if you read further a 'food production facility" must allow inspections or be fined up to $1,000,000 per DAY
the fine is exempt from judicial review
I am not making this up -- go read it for yourself
SEC. 405. CIVIL AND CRIMINAL PENALTIES.
(a) Civil Sanctions-
(1) CIVIL PENALTY-
(A) IN GENERAL- Any person that commits an act that violates the food safety law (including a regulation promulgated or order issued under the food safety law) may be assessed a civil penalty by the Administrator of not more than $1,000,000 for each such act.
(B) SEPARATE OFFENSE- Each act described in subparagraph (A) and each day during which that act continues shall be considered a separate offense.
http://www.thomas.gov/
search HR875
Forget about banning guns they are putting in place regulations that could ban you from growing food
I've had it.
In spite of legislation like this few people think we need less government.
Almost everyone I meet want government to do something. I want them to leave me the hell alone.
This is not going to end well.
/sarcasm on
Picture this! A very high electric bill, people going in and out of the house at the end of the block (you know the house, yard is a wasteland and they have a high electric bill, sheesh I just mentioned the high electric bill at the beginning of this story). Lights... bright lights on all the time.
Cut to, several months later and the home is surrounded by agricultural agents. They break down the door and as suspected a home growing operation...Thats right, carrots, onions, and squash. This family is going down! They will spend years in the pokey. IF only it was a pot growing operation where they get a slap on the hand and probation.
/sarcasm off
And yet again, bad legislation that will probably never make it out of committee is used as ammunition against all government regulation. I don't understand this logic. There are dozens and dozens of bills sent to committee every year, yet very few of them come up for a vote. That is government working the way it should; just because some numbskull had a not-so-bright idea, doesn't mean the eeeevill government will adopt it to oppress the masses.
Deregulation is the reason we are in this recession. If we abandon all regulation out of fear of some loony idea, we will be at the mercy of unscrupulous capitalists who are motivated by greed alone, and will stop at nothing to separate the public from their money. I fear unrestrained business far more than I fear the government.
This is a massive bill with many co-sponsors. This will take some work.
Here is the full text.
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h111-875
It looks like they are trying to take food safety out of the hands of the FDA and create a Food Safety Administration.
I think that the FDA already has this power by law. They are looking to classify it to a new department.
IIRC, Just the sections highlighted in this post are already within the power of the FDA. They have the ability to regulate and inspect all farms, ranches, processors, etc... They just don't do it. I think they are increasing the fine. I do not feel like going through the complete authority, power, and all FDA laws, but if anyone else would like to be my guest.
It is like the creation of homeland security. They had legislation that they could do all sorts of crazy things. But if you read the laws, these powers were already within the other departments FBI, CIA, DEA, INS, ICE.
The parts of the legislation I dislike are that they do not differentiate food produced for public sale and private consumption. Also
SEC. 202. REGISTRATION OF FOOD ESTABLISHMENTS AND FOREIGN FOOD ESTABLISHMENTS.
(a) In General- Any food establishment or foreign food establishment engaged in manufacturing, processing, packing, or holding food for consumption in the United States shall register annually with the Administrator.
The Bill is very large and most of the offenses I could see warranting $1,000,000 fine. If the admin tried to levy a $1,000,000 fine on a small farm for not allowing inspections it could jeopardize their whole existence. A court would most likely hold it unconstitutional. (cruel and unusual) They could also strike the law as overly broad. This would gut the whole administration, not a likely scenario, but possible. This legislation needs a lot of work. I would be more concerned because it has 39 co-sponsors.
This is in response to the fact the FDA hasn't been doing their job for years. Now people think we need a new department to not do the job.
Problem:
People getting sick and dying from contaminated food.
Reaction:
OMG WE NEED TO MAKE SURE OUR FOOD IS SAFE
Solution:
A new intrusive government beauracracy to further regulate people's lives.
This will make it easier to document how much food a family produces for their own consumption. Presumably the documentation required would have to include the basics --how much, what kind, what happened to it.
"oh I see here that you produced 50 quarts of tomatoes and 500 pounds of beef for your families consumption. That is an imputed income of $980, and of course that is taxable income. Please declare that on your 1040 as we will prepare a 1090 for this income"
Anyone else see a 4Th amendment problem here ?
SEC. 210. TRACEBACK REQUIREMENTS.
(a) In General- The Administrator, in order to protect the public health, shall establish a national traceability system that enables the Administrator to retrieve the history, use, and location of an article of food through all stages of its production, processing, and distribution.
(b) Applicability- Traceability requirements under this section shall apply to food from food production facilities, food establishments, and foreign food establishments.
(c) Requirements-
(1) STANDARDS- The Administrator shall establish standards for the type of information, format, and timeframe for food production facilities and food establishments to submit records to aid the Administrator in effectively retrieving the history, use, and location of an item of food.
(2) RULE OF CONSTRUCTION- Nothing in this section shall be construed as requiring the Administrator to prescribe a specific technology for the maintenance of records or labeling of food to carry out the requirements of this section.
(3) AVAILABILITY OF RECORDS FOR INSPECTION- Any records that are required by the Administrator under this section shall be available for inspection by the Administrator upon oral or written request.
(4) DEMONSTRATION OF ABILITY- The Administrator, during any inspection, may require a food establishment to demonstrate its ability to trace an item of food and submit the information in the format and timeframe required under paragraph (1).
Quote from: Windpower on March 09, 2009, 12:11:29 PM
Problem:
"oh I see here that you produced 50 quarts of tomatoes and 500 pounds of beef for your families consumption. That is an imputed income of $980, and of course that is taxable income. Please declare that on your 1040 as we will prepare a 1090 for this income"
This is a slight misstatement of the tax code. You only pay taxes on goods and services sold or traded.
but they are going to increase taxes to pay for all those bailouts, don't you know
They are getting desperate now. I think they are worried about the taxes they will not be collecting when people start feeding themselves instead of buying from the grocery. Farmers markets are making a big come back and alternative economies aren't just for hippies anymore. If people start taking care of themselves without the big corporate involvement that means a lot less taxes and a lot less financial gain for the millionaire members and their stock portfolios will drop dramatically. There is an article on the front page of the Seattle papers about seed companies selling record numbers of seed. Growing your own is one way to save a lot of grocery money and if you can sell some too and make a little spending money for bills or other necessities that is great BUT the govt. needs that tax money to keep up their wars, and covert spying on the citizens. This makes the perfect excuse for them to be in everyones yard, garden, home. It's OK though I am going to keep at it because I have a great aliby the damn wild turkeys and deer eat everything here. It is well documneted and the towns people have been up in arms about this total deriliction of deer/turkeys for years. HA
It's not that far fetched for them to tax home produced food. They already have crazy income taxes. For example if you worked for a farmer and he paid you $100 dollars a week plus room and board you'd have to pay taxes on all of it even the food you ate. If he paid you with a share of the crop you'd have to sell part of it and give the money to the IRS. Now most people in a situation like this don't make enough to owe much or anything currently but all it would take is a change in the tax tables. The notion that someone who is basicly a slave could be taxed for their room and board is insane but it's very real.
On another note this regulation of food has been going on for a while. Regulations have been used to just about wipe out all family farming over the last 50 years or so. The sole purpose of wiping out farmers was to force people to move the cities and get paying jobs so they could be more easily taxed. Welfare was created for the same reason. By giving families welfare they no longer needed to work the fields and so created a labor shortage for the farmers. The end goal of all of this is to control the people.
AND THIS POLICY IS CLEARLY FACIST!!!
I hope somebody sends the names of those 39 sponsors to the news media and exposes their facist traits.
Regardless of how jaded you may be when it comes to regulation, I believe in complaining. Complaining takes many forms. Ranting here is one and offers the quickest solution to help sooth the immediate fires of indignation. Sometimes that is all it takes to cool down a little. It's great when that suffices.
When that doesn't quite do it sometimes it's good to write to your local newspapers.
However I also believe in complaining directly to those who have been sent to DC as our representatives. There's a new help topic on this HERE (http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=6556.0)
After further thought. I do believe in taxing commerce. But home gardens that are shared with family and friends are not engaging in commerce.
Secondly IF this law was really about public safety there would be penalties that are more appropriate, like a fine of 10 percent on assetts and income, 1st offense, and double for second offense, ON THE THIRD offense shut them down if it is REALLY about public safety. This legislation appears to be a desperate attempt to fund a flailing govt. with perks for the corporations. After all who else can afford million dollar fines?
My last thought is that there needs to be a FACIST WATCH cabinet post!!! As Americans we owe it to every soldier who's grave flys the flag this memorial day and to those who have stood up proudly for the concepts of Land of the FREE and Home of the BRAVE.
Quote from: tanya on March 09, 2009, 03:25:33 PM
Secondly IF this law was really about public safety there would be penalties that are more appropriate, like a fine of 10 percent on assetts and income, 1st offense, and double for second offense, ON THE THIRD offense shut them down if it is REALLY about public safety. This legislation appears to be a desperate attempt to fund a flailing govt. with perks for the corporations. After all who else can afford million dollar fines?
I have work in an area that deals with government fines. The current draft of this law is written for a maximum fine for an offense. As you noted Tanya, that is the usually implementation of the law. Almost all criminal laws are written with a minimum and a maximum penalty and it is up to the courts and the government to decide on the fair amount. You can read most of title 18 or the criminal code and the federal sentencing guidelines for more information. Many fines are done by agency regulation standards rather than laws by congress, because they are easier to adapt.
This is basically a poorly crafted piece of proposed legislation. I really don't think "they" want to make it impossible to grow your own food. However, it sure would seem that if this went through the process without having the home grower for own use exempted some idiot someplace in government would try a move like Stink imagined.
If you book mark your reps info, flashing off an email about your concerns about home gardens is very easy to do.
I thought it may be good for some who may not understand the government we have today. Here's a good piece to read up on the subject.
For all that, we no longer fully have what our ancestors, who framed and ratified our Constitution, thought of as freedom — a careful division of power that prevents power from becoming concentrated and unlimited. The word they usually used for concentrated power was consolidated — a rough synonym for fascist. And the words they used for any excessive powers claimed or exercised by the state were usurped and tyrannical. They would consider the modern "liberal" state tyrannical in principle; they would see in it not the opposite of the fascist, communist, and socialist states, but their sister.
http://www.sobran.com/articles/tyranny.shtml (http://www.sobran.com/articles/tyranny.shtml)
/sarcasm on
Cut to a scene in the pokey. Two middle aged women discussing their convictions. One lady a real hippie look to her and the other lady has the soccer mom look. The hippie lady is relaxed. SHe is making plans for the "next time" telling soccer mom she will be out in 3 months. "You see, even though I am a repeat offender, I have never served more then 3 months for growing my "herb"... Soccer mom begins to cry, I have a ten year sentence! Hippie mom, dismayed by this news, "why so long?" Soccer mom, sobs as she explains, "Well the judge wanted to make an example out of me, and when it was discovered that I was growing tomatoes and they were HEIRLOOM, it was just too much for the judge, he through the book at me"
/sarcasm off
Well one would think that with 39 sponsors the thing would have been wqritten clearly and precisely for those engaged in commerce, which is resonable to a point. After all govt. has the responsiblity to regulate. It is businesses obligation to ensure proper and safe production. So yes by all means if a company is engaged in commerce and puts the public at risk, due to poor quality assuaance practices fine them ( a reasonable amount is ten percent of product and assetts, 20 percent for the second offense) BUT if they continue to show lack of accountability and poor sanitation practices then it is the govt. OBLIGATION to shut them down, not police them endlessly to no avail. Quality assurance becomes a joke when the company just keeps paying fines and the govt. lets them go on and on and on like that. BUT before they can even thhink about checking into quality assurance and use the powers to visit every garden inthe US then they should have to PROVE that there is in fact someone engaging in commerce. Not just the little old lady who has a bunch of grandkids picking huckleberries and putting them in her freezer which is something that came up here inthe northwest, poor old grandmas with to many huckelberries had feds confiscating the contents of their freezer with no proof whatsoever they were contriband huckelberries. That is facisim. And every member of congress should ask themselves a simple question when they propose legislation, is this a fascist policy I am enacting? And the public MUST expose those who do implement facist policies or we will be very sorry.
Quote from: tanya on March 09, 2009, 07:09:12 PM
Well one would think that with 39 sponsors the thing would have been wqritten clearly and precisely...
Not necessarily. Remember they passed the porkulis bill and most if not all of them never even read it.
Also remember, just because they are congressmen/women doesn't mean they are smart.
I am pretty sure we are not a capitalist country anymore. And I don't feel sorry for those banks at all, in fact I think it was a big mistake to bail them out. After all they don't give anyone any breaks yet they think the taxpayers owe them many. I saw over the weekend that two thirds of the senate and 40 percent of the house are millionaires. I can't help but wonder if they are not using taxpayer dollars to ensure their investments don't fail.
They are all a bunch of lousy crooks, and should be destroyed along with their alters to Baal. Policing my vegetable garden? Pleeeeeease. Charging me $1,000,000 per day? I'd like to see em try to collect that. Putting me in jail for taking part in my GOD given right, and command to cultivate? They'll be the one's with a firey placecard, not me. If this bill does go through, I will do everything in my power to get anybody and everybody to plant their own garden. We are not too far from having a prison country here as it is, might as well throw the whole lot of us in, then where will the taxes come from?
Oh yeah, ofcourse Monsanto, and those other demons in bio-engineering will be ok, their food has nothing wrong with it, it'll be organic stuff that is not safe for consumption. n*
Quote from: ScottA on March 09, 2009, 12:47:49 PM
It's not that far fetched for them to tax home produced food. They already have crazy income taxes. The end goal of all of this is to control the people.
Far fetched??? One of my favorites is they are taxing people in cities for non-porous surfaces.
"One of my favorites is they are taxing people in cities for non-porous surfaces."
Why are you surprised? Ever since i can remember they've been taxing people for dying.
Capitailism in and of itself is just a fine and working aspect of our lives UNTIL the govt. starts using taxpayer money to uphold and save failing corporations. We are on the brink of losing our liberty if we haven't already that money has to come from somewhere and that will be taxpayers pockets no doubt. In THIS country at the PRESENT time we cannot be forced to purchase or work for corporations against our will. When the govt. starts regualting food prodiction to only corporations and making people work at designated positions to get thier govt. stipends THEN we no longer see capitalism we see FACISIM!!! AS we all know by now the American consumer has figured it out and they know they rule the worl, not our govt. not our corporations but our PAYCHECKS. Maybe it has gone to their heads a bit in the public sector, but things will even out eventually unless govt. continues to back corporations before the individual taxpayer. I hear onthe news that the govt. is trying to make credit available with these corporate bailouts but no one I know WANTS any credit in fact the people I know are paying thier credit cards off as fast as possible and refusing to take anymore. No body in ther right mind would buy on credit in these difficult and uncertain economic times. I thinkt hat might be why the focus is on creating jobs. BUT we do not have to give up our civil rights ( as in being regulated when producing our own food) just to be able to work. It is time not to ask what we can do for our corporations but what can our corporations do for US!!! And some in govt. and business are actually getting it. The ones who aren't don't deserve our support/business anyway.
Capitalism isn't the problem, IMO it is corporations. They take capitalism, which makes it possible for somebody to work their way to "success", and swallow it whole, what they crap out is greed that changes the way everybody thinks about product and services. Have you ever been to a city dump? Less than half of that stuff would be in there if not for corporations. The corporate system is the downfall of civilization as it has always been known, all they do is relabel genocide "progress" [yuk].
If it wasn't for corporations where would my refrigerator come from? My computer? The solar panels I bought so I can have electricity in the mountains? The gasoline I put in my car or Jeep to get to those mountains?
??? ??? ??? ???
And the list goes on and on.
ED: corrected one of my spelling typing errors
The behavior of some corporations is just another example of what can happen when "people" get together in a groupthink process----perfectly intelligent and caring individuals can come up with the most amazingly dumb and sometimes evil decisions----It has nothing to do with being in "corporations" or legislatures or committees-----it's just human nature----sometimes sublime, sometimes ridiculous!
seems to me capitalism works fine. its crony capitalism that failed us. this concept of too big to fail does not belong in capitalism. By definition, a failing company should fail so that healthy companies can replace it. By keep the zombies alive we have destroyed capitalism.
(as bush said, we have to abandon free market principles to save the free market).
all we saved was the fraud, the liars, and the cheats. Thats not what capitalism is about.
OK I hope no one minds if I bring this back to the govt. and gardens/farming. I recently, like back in January started looking for mini goats to buy and raise when I first started looking I saw baby goats for $60-75 dollars. Now they are running at over $250!!! I think people got wind of the coming famine and decided maybe mini goats are a good investment. Shoot!!! I should have bought some right away, I cannot pay $250 for a mini goat when I could get a calf for that, this is farm/cattle country not the city. I wonder if the govt. tracks mini goats. I know they have a big thing going on where they want to tag and track all cattle and people here don't like it. It seems to me that if a family has cows that they are not selling or using to produce products for sale then the cows should remain untagged. I am not sure how tagging cattle would keep people safe though, or what the purpose of tagging them is other than branding to keep them from being stolen but most farmers agree with that practice. I think it is to prevent mad cow being spread but once a cow is found sick the mad cow disease has already been spread about so I just don't get it. I do support the new law though that says butchers and meet packing plants can't take non ambulatory cows. It is sickening to think they needed a law to make that happen do these producers/ranchers have no shame?
So, I looked up the legislation and read the "definitions". Yep, it could easily include my garden plot. So, I went to the representative's website to write to her about it. Problem; the website only accepts emails from people in Connecticutt, where she is....(I was doomed before I started, can't remember how to spell Conn., a dead giveaway). So I wrote to my own representative and pointed out the over encompassing verbiage in the definitions... Maybe someone will read the email...
Candle in the wind....
The learning curve... yes, it is not unusual to be unable to directly email a rep if your address is not in their area. That's why we all have our own reps. It has been my experience over the years that emails and letters are all read by someone. I have not kept track, but I would say that my senators (staff) have probably answered each and every letter and email; my newly elected congressperson (against my wishes), is either slow on the responses or is simply living up to the poor opinion I have of him.
In any event they do keep tally of which way the wind is blowing; sometimes though it doesn't seem to blow strong enough.
This reminds me of the National Animal Identification System.
Quote from: tanya on March 12, 2009, 12:28:33 AM
OK I hope no one minds if I bring this back to the govt. and gardens/farming. I recently, like back in January started looking for mini goats to buy and raise when I first started looking I saw baby goats for $60-75 dollars. Now they are running at over $250!!!
That is more of a pet price than a food source price. I see that often for specialty breeds such as miniatures. If you are willing to buy a cross breed, not pure breed, you can get a good deal. We have baby goat does for $30 and bucks for $15 around me. People are selling 5-6 lambing sheep for $200. I am starting to see some good prices in this market. People need money more than they need the goats right now. You can't pay your mortgage or truck payment in goats. The market for livestock can vary drastically. I have seen chicks selling at $5 a piece and laying chickens at $4.
Yeah, I would think that you should be able to get goats and sheep for less than that, that is more expensive than the meat cost! Goats and sheep are very good farm animals, don't eat too much, not as much work as cows, very hardy.
"If it wasn't for corporations where would my refrigerator come from? My computer? The solar panels I bought so I can have electricity in the mountains? The gasoline I put in my car or Jeep to get to those mountains?"
Without corporations telling you that you need these things, would you really? Would life really be that much easier/harder/different without them? I think it would be different in a good way. And remember too, that there was a time when many of these things could have been brought to us without the help of big corporations, and it seems to me that the majority of people who lived in that time look back on it very fondly. Even the Depression isn't the horrible time in the memories of most of those who lived it...as long as they weren't simply dependent on a job, or the city, or big companies for getting by.
I think this goes right along with the main topic of discussion, because it's about the fiscal majority trying to keep us tied to them. Who do you think is really behind a bill like this? I think it's big farming, corporate farming, and GMO's are the major charge, personally. They see that people are looking to be more self-sufficient, and want to shoot that down. They need everybody to be dependent on them, and will do anything they can to keep us enslaved to them. "Pharaoh, let my people go" rings just as true now as it did thousands of years ago, to my ears at least.
Jens,
I agree with you regarding corporations and I don't think it takes too much effort to see who really wrote this legislation. Politicians are prone to calling regulatory power as protection, and unfortunately many people fall for the line. Having lived without electricity and refrigeration for almost four years I can tell you these are very nice to have. True these things are not even close to necessities, but they are conveniences I'm willing to pay for having.
The original sponsor of HR875 Rosa DeLauro is married to a Monsanto Lawyer
Imagine my surprise
ADM, Monsanto, Tyson, Cargill are pushing this bill (lobbying) big time
the Senate version is S425 and is virtually idenical so that debate will be minimized and they can fast track this legislation.
But wait there's more
Organic farms will likely become obsolete.
You see, earthworms are an invasive species
therefore organic farms will have to kill off all invasive species (presumably even earthworms) so that they can operate within the guidelines set up by the Department of Food Safety
I know, you think I'm a loon
google "earthworms invasive species"
Quote from: Jens on March 12, 2009, 08:46:05 AM
Without corporations telling you that you need these things, would you really? Would life really be that much easier/harder/different without them?
So what period in history are you saying we should be thrown back to?
I really question that statement of yours. Personally I do
not believe corporations
tell me to do or buy anything. Corporations make lots of stuff available; stuff like the refrigerator (and freezer) I questioned above. You're telling me life would be better is I didn't have those two items? Do you want me to go back to an ice box and forgo the convenience of having access to frozen vegetables during the winter? Or do you want me to forgo refrigeration altogether? I've seen how the early settlers of the west lived in the 1800's. I don't care to go there, to live that way.
Science, inventors, entrepreneurs and yes, corporations
offer me the opportunity to purchase a host of items and services. I have chosen to buy items like the refrigerator and range because they make keeping and cooking food more convenient. Ditto the use of a natural gas fueled furnace. {Please note that I have also lived in a country where every day I had to purchase small quantities of foods that required refrigeration to keep safely because I did not have access to a refrigerator. During the cold weather I kept warm by wither putting on more clothes or by the sparing use of a kerosene room heater.} The range and the furnace not only save me time by relieving me of the need to cut, split and store firewood, they provide me with time to enjoy other pursuits. Not to mention how smokey the air would be if everyone around me was also burning vast quantities of wood for cooking and heating. Some of the readers here are too young to actually realize how much cleaner our air is today. Check your facts before you say it is not.
And guess what, it was corporations, with workers like many of us, who made that happen.
If I was listening to the corporations who are supposed to be telling me what I need, I wouldn't still be using the stereo equipment I assembled piecemeal in the late 1970's, with the addition of a CD player added in the mid 1990's. Yes I'm still enjoying my positively ancient Harmon Kardon and Bang & Olufsen components. No remotes. Fancy that! Look at all the opportunities to spend money I've resisted. I do not own a portable CD player, MP3 player, iPod, etc.
The new LCD (26") TV we recently purchased was purchased solely so we could position the TV on the coffee table near the sofa. The old CRT TV we replaced had nothing wrong with it; the date stamp on the rear says it was manufactured in July 1990. It is in the office while the TV that was in the office is in limbo awaiting the time to be listed on craigslist. The old TV was too large to be conveniently placed closer to the sofa. Placing the new TV close like that has made it possible for me to see print on the screen once again. Age related eyesight problems are edging me towards blindness. We could have purchased a 60" flat screen TV and placed it on the wall opposite the sofa. That would have worked as far as seeing the picture. We made the conscious choice to buy smaller. Some corporation developed that LCD technology to the point where the new TV cost me less to purchase than the TV it replaced; that's in price tag dollars, unadjusted for inflation. As far as the question "do I need a TV?" No, I could live without it. But why? We select programming that interests us; most of it being informational TV, not the mindless crap that occupies most of the channel spectrum. Once again, everyone has a choice. No one is forcing people to sit and watch countless hours of reality TV shows, etc.
One of my points here is that living in this time is wonderful! Not only is this a wonderful time to live this is a wonderful country to live in! We have the
choice to partake of whatever we want as well as having what we need. We have the
choice to work at jobs we select, or not to work if that is what we choose. We would not have as many choices in how to live, where to live, what to buy if there were no capitalism based corporations. I could go on and on describing choices I have made that to me illustrate why I believe I have chosen my life rather than living a life foisted upon me by so-called evil corporations. (Things like we live in the same house we bought in 1985, things like we've usually bought used vehicles and traded up when it was either a necessary or better choice. We bought our first new outdoor grill in over 24 years just last year: how many times have I walked past the shiny displays of new ones? Most of the furniture in the house is 24 years old or older or made by myself. I use a pay as you go cell phone; last years cost was less than $75 for the whole year.
I
like having today's
choices. I do not think I would be better off without having these choices. Anyone can make their own choices. That is good. That does not make the array of available choices bad.
Those are my opinions on corporations.
As muldoon stated
"seems to me capitalism works fine. its crony capitalism that failed us. " We do not have to toss the concept of capitalism and corporations to solve the problem.
Quote from: Windpower on March 12, 2009, 10:01:42 AM
ADM, Monsanto, Tyson, Cargill are pushing this bill (lobbying) big time
Not a surprise. $1,000,000 maximum fine seemed a little light for actual enforcement. While it seams like a big number for a small farm, there are laws and courts to protect them from levying it on people who can't afford it. But to a company like Tyson who has revenues of 26 billion a year, this would barely effect the bottom line. It probably wouldn't have to be disclosed in SEC filings as material.
WE also have laws written into our constitution protecting us from subsidizing corporate crooks, where are they now? AND it would be VERY NICE if we had a choice NOT to bail out these idiots!!! Instead of the govt. taking the money right out of taxpayers pockets. Remember two thirds of the senate and 40 percent of the house are millionaires. Of course they want to protect their investments but I could give a crap as long as I eat good food, I'm good. I like my power fridge as much as anyone, TV, stereo etc. But I don't expect the govt. to make sure those items are made available. Now I WOULD like to see my govt. make sure things like health care and food are available. Nutrition is a huge part of health and taking the people's right away to grow their own NON COMMERCIAL garden by mandating you allow federal agents into your space is facisit plain and simple.
There is NO public safety componant to this law, no authorization to shut down a facility that is accepting non ambulatory cows over and over, no authorization to shut down farms where food is being picked up off the ground where animal feces is, etc. etc. etc. just keep on getting those fines. I am appalled!!! NO one is saying corporations are evil but they should be held as damn responsible as anyone else when it comes to production and safety standards.
Here is jsut one example I am quite irritated with today. Every year as long as I have lived here the loggers have to park thier heavy trucks during spring road thaws to prevent the roads from breaking up. Now the gold mine has even bigger trucks and they are running their regular all day schedule roads and taxpayers be damned. The state highway has the speed limit marked down to 35 mph because the damageis so sever but they are allowing those big trucks to keep on trucking even though 35 mph is not going to prevent road damage from heavy ore traffic. There are sink holes forming every few minutes and someone is bound to get hurt sooner or later. My guess? Oh the stimulas package is gong to fix those roads don't you know.
"(1) to determine whether the food is contaminated, adulterated, or otherwise not in compliance with the food safety law; or
(2) to track the food in commerce."
Ok I was wondering what the purpose of the law is so I went back and the above issues appear to be the govt. concerns. What I can't understand is why is Montesano lobbying for it? They stand to be inspected, rejected, injected, etc.
What is adulterated food? The food safety law? Why should US citizens not involved in commerce give up their right to privacy, and the right to pursue happiness?
HOW DOES THIS LAW PROVIDE SAFETY MEASURES? You can fine, fine and fine again and without the authority to shut it down who can be sure anyone is safe?
Who will the garden police be and what happens to grandparents and the poor who don't pay and continue to garden?
Do these politicians get paid to think this stuff up?
I think I would be a MUCH better dictator!!!!
There is a multi-billion dollar industry founded on telling you what you "need" and convincing you of what you want, it is called advertising. The amount of advertising is much larger now, than even when I was little. I think it is a pretty safe bet (without drawing actual data) to say that it has risen over the last 100 or so years. I just heard something, that kids up to the age of 5 can't even discern between advertisement and entertainment. Any parent with TV stations, or a kid in school, or a kid with eyes, can tell you about how much crap they see on the TV that they want. Or how about when they go over to their friends house, and want/need the same things their friends have? The sad part is, that people (by and large) these days, equate happiness with having stuff, or having new stuff. Our society teaches us that to be a success means being just another wasteful sheep, bleating at the gates of dispensability. Your fridge? You could possibly have a better means of keeping things cool if for the individual mind, maybe not. Your Jeep? Maybe a better vehicle too, maybe not.
All I know, is that the small family stores are closing down all over the place. Manufacturing is closing down. People don't know how to make dinner, let alone a sweater! The family farm is becoming a thing of the past, because of corporate farming, and GMO products, which have the potential to alter the world in such a drastic way that there will no longer be any purely natural crop anymore. That angers me! It really does! This bill, and bills like it, seem to me like just another way for those demons of greed- who pervert prosperity in such a way that we no longer (generalization) have any morals in this world- to get their firey little fingernails deeper into our necks, and leave their mark on everyone and everything.
I heard something from the Rabbi tonight that was funny, yet sad and all too true. The difference between morals and ethics; an ethical man will recognize that it is wrong to sleep with another man's wife, a moral man just won't do it. Ethics be damned, if there are going to be corporations (which there always will be), we need to have moral ones, nothing else. We need corporations that will not try to put out other people; their goals, and beliefs, and rights; with BS legislation, hit men of all kinds, and economic holocaust. And yes, that is what all of this is to me. Holocaust. Burning of all those who, although they don't pose a real threat, "we might just help ourselves to the 10% market share that they retain", little stores, that grew in a truly capitalistic society and are no dying in a perversion allowed and encouraged by the governmental system.
Tanya,
Monsanto can afford a few fines and they most likely would never pay anyway, but small scale farmers could never afford even the minimum fine and they don't have a vast bank of attorneys to defend them. Monsanto wants this law because it can easily be perverted to put many small farms out of business. Look how Monsanto has gone after famers for copyright infringement because the farmers' non-GMO crops get cross pollinated with Monsanto's Round-Up Ready strain. The farmers have no recourse and are left with huge fines owed to Monsanto and no crops to sell because Monsanto ceases everything. I can easily see Monsanto using the courts to attack small organic farms in an effort to shut them down. Not even considering the potential fine, just look at how much it would cost to defend yourself and attempt to produce enough "evidence" to satisfy the courts that you're in compliance with this law.
How do you get a copyright on a life form? That's messed up. ???
Its not the corn that is copyrighted, it is the genetic engineering. Basically, the DNA strain, that is not natural, is what they have copyrighted. They have made corn, as well as rice, and some other staples which I can't remember, I assume "in their image", which is invasive, empty, fascist, greedy, as well as possibly a few other descriptions. These strains are all of this, as they take over all natural strains through cross-pollination; think of AIDS, that is basically what it is; and make it almost impossible to grow what nature intended.
So if their pollen got on my corn they'd claim they own my corn? I'd argure that their pollen is air polution that has harmed my crop and sue them for that. But then again I'm sure all the judges are on their payroll so that would be a waste of time. I hope they'll be the first to swing if this causes a famine. Where can i get a "Monsanto Sucks" tee shirt?
Here is hte story of Percy Schmeister an organic Canola grower in Canada
Monsanto sued him and won
http://www.percyschmeiser.com/
??? ???
Maybe that was a typo? It ended other way around, more or less?
The Supreme Court issued their decision in May 2004 and one can view the decision as a draw. The Court determined that Monsanto's patent is valid, but Schmeiser is not forced to pay Monsanto anything as he did not profit from the presence of Roundup Ready canola in his fields. This issue started with Monsanto demanding Schmeiser pay the $15/acre technology fee and in the end, Schmeiser did not have to pay. The Schmeiser family and supporters are pleased with this decision, however disappointed that the other areas of appeal were not overturned.
He sorta won but had to pay his own legal fees which where way more than what Monsanto tried to charge him so he really lost in a way. All I want is a tee shirt.
Monsanto is a huge customer of the Co I work for
I have been to St Louis and Muscatine IA (where they make tons of Roundup)
IMO Monsanto is a criminal enterprise
Well what I suggest is people catch up some wild turkeys and any other protected corn eating species and let them loose at Montesano. Oh imagine if the folks who caught skunks, rats, mice and other "pests" in those live traps all took them to Montesano fields.... And wouldn't it just serve them right if some native tribes nearby started growing traditional indian corn? Sorry I have a mean streak going on today it is this cold getting to me. I might have to go get some bourbon for a hot drink.
Kinda like putting a dead fish in the HVAC ducting when you don't like somebody. If you put if far enough down...boy that just sounds nasty!
"Where can i get a "Monsanto Sucks" tee shirt? "
Maybe I'll have a friend print some out, I want one too.
"I'd argure that their pollen is air polution that has harmed my crop and sue them for that. But then again I'm sure all the judges are on their payroll so that would be a waste of time."
Yeah...let me know how that works out for ya :)
In Mexico, there are ancient strains of corn that are going extinct because of the cross pollination. This is their heritage! At a certain time, it became cheaper to buy imported Monsanto corn (supplied at a deep discount, from what I heard), than to grow their own. Problem 1, was the cross pollination, problem 2 was the way they replant...when they harvest, the eat raw ears as they are doing it, take a bite, then rip off and sow some kernels. This has ended up so that their native species get killed out most places.
http://eatclosetohome.wordpress.com/2008/10/23/victory-gardens-exposed/
Excerpt ...
Victory Gardens
During WWI, people planted "war gardens" to ensure they would have enough to eat. A non-government-affiliated civilian, Charles Pack, created the National Emergency Food Garden Commission. The government got rather ticked off at him for rallying such support, especially with a name that implied federal endorsement. However, once war was declared in 1917, the government did endorse War Gardens and put one in on the White House lawn.
When WWII came around, the USDA went on the offensive to ensure no Charles Packs would emerge. Why? The official line was that no amateur gardener could harvest enough food to make it worth the expenditure of seeds and chemical fertilizer, which was now preferred over manure. (Keep in mind chemical fertilizer and bombs are made of the same stuff.) My hunch is also that large farmers didn't want the competition and the government wanted the illusion of normalcy. Within a couple weeks of Pearl Harbor, they were letting the country know that there should be NO repeat of the war garden effort, and in fact said that home gardening was unpatriotic. Eleanor Roosevelt was told there was no suitable place to plant a garden near the White House when she asked in 1941. Tearing out part of the Rose Garden was expressly forbidden, as that would be completely at odds with the "official" message of the day - that digging up ornamentals was a rash, panicky action and we'll be having none of that, thank you.
For two years, local Victory Garden boards fought this government slander and continued their efforts to plow up parks, create community gardens, give away seeds, and help folks garden. Finally, in 1943, the USDA admitted there might be shortages of certain foods (mostly veggies) because large commercial farmers were being asked to focus on staples like wheat. Canned goods were rationed for the first time. The number of Victory Gardens skyrocketed, Eleanor got her Victory Garden, and finally the USDA started putting out all those pretty posters implying that gardening was a good thing to do to help the war effort.
In 1944, rationing of canned goods ended, and 30% of the victory gardens shut down. The Victory Garden campaign continued to the end of the war, but numbers of gardens kept decreasing. (Though curiously, sales of seeds never fell off.
So what do we learn from this?
* The People have always led the gardening movement.
* Whenever we feel our food system is insecure, we grab shovels and plant gardens.
* When food is plentiful and cheap, gardening slacks off.
* Government gardening propaganda has little effect on numbers of gardens.
* Giving people space, dirt, compost, seeds, and tools has an astounding effect on local food production.
Hallelujah!!!
I'll give 'em my vegetable when they pry my cold dead fingers off of it. [waiting]
Here's a video titled "The Future of Food." I think I posted it a couple times before - about Monsanto, suing farmers, etc.
http://wideeyecinema.com/?p=26
no more need to worry about what "might happen".
HR 2749 - Food-Safety-Enhancement-Act-of-2009 passed today and was signed into law in the whitehouse.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Statement-by-the-President-on-House-Passage-of-the-Food-Safety-Enhancement-Act-of-2009/
The govtrack on this one:
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h111-2749
http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h2749/show
opencongress has the people support of this at 6%, Users Support Bill - 8 in favor / 127 opposed
...
The farm to consumer legal defense fund has been opposed to this bill and has a faq on what it means. This is the most non-biased "reasonable" site I could find with the honest look at the changes. There are dozens of sites that will tell you more.
http://www.farmtoconsumer.org/news/news-HR2749-FAQ.htm
Just one more step down the road to facist Amerika.
The time will come when they reap what they have sown, pun intended.
http://buzz.yahoo.com/buzzlog/92869?fp=1
As a Texan recently moved to the UK I note that skyrocketing food prices are fostering a boom in "allotment gardening" (google this English phenomenon: small community gardening plots rented to people with no yards in an overpopulated island.) The UK from day one resisted GM "Frankenfoods" but recently secret "test plots" of (Monsanto's) GM potatoes have been planted, to the general wrath of the people.
i have access to a greenhouse and only grow heirloom seed veggies myself. The Labour Gov't here mistakenly thinks that GM crops are bigger producers. They don't know that weeds and insects quickly evolve to overcome the GM advantages . . .
Quote from New World Order advocate Henry Kissinger many years ago: "Control debt and you control nations. Control food and you control people." Watch the European Union. The priority is to reduce world population by famines and "pandemics", or the vaccines for same; and by control of food supply.
For those who want to raise meat but cannot afford goats, Micro-livestock is a trend for the future: Import / find some of those "improved" giant guinea pigs developed for 3rd world countries as cheap meat source by the University of Lima, Peru. These are the easy-keeper food animals of the future--far less trouble than rabbits. Easily raised / kept when you're elderly. (The government can't find them if you raise them under your bed in cardboard boxes, feeding them grass as Ecuadorian immigrants in NY do :-) Google for these food animals ; but many of the best info pages are in Spanish. Find a translator and see all the recipes for guinea-pig.