I built my first boat in the mid '60's. From then through the late '80's I built boats, furniture and houses.. and acquired the necessary tools.
Now I'm back earning a living building things. So as I need them I'm restoring and/or replacing tools. Sharpening chisels and plane irons. Cleaning squares, sliding T-bevels and measuring and layout tools. I started to notice something.
My favorite chisel is a Miller's Falls. Made in the U.S.A. I thought about getting a few more just like it. I tried to find one online, but they have been out of business for 20+ years.
My other chisels and most of my planes are Stanley. All are made in U.S.A. The current Stanley chisels at Lowe's are made in China. The planes are assembled in Mexico of global parts.
My made in the U.S.A. plumb hammer needs to be replaced. Yeppers, now made in China.
Brace & bit, hand saw, 2 foot, 4 foot and 6 foot levels, sliding t-bevel, assorted squares and layout tools, dado set, Black & Decker circular saw.... all made in America. Not likely today.
My newer tools are of the "global" variety. We certainly changed our path between ~1970 and today.
:(
Miller's Falls is out of business..... dang it.
An old name I remember and that's all that's left I guess.
I am blessed with a number of flea markets that are chocked full of old chisels and planes.
How much did that B&D saw cost new in 1970??? How about those chisels and planes?
Something I've been wondering for a while now. For the price you "old timers" payed for American made tools, if I adjust for inflation can I still buy American.
Nothing is made in America anymore --- or corporate business leaders have sold us out for profit. Even the few things that are have imported parts.
Buy American - go to yard sales.
Lie-Neilsen tools are all American made. High quality planes, chisels spokeshaves, and the like. There are some great chisels from Japan, just gotta spend more. Great American made saws still too. Their are some suppliers in the back of Fine Woodworking. Expect to pay more, but quality always costs more.
Guess I'd have to change that to not much is made in America anymore.
Quote from: r8ingbull on February 12, 2009, 08:28:05 AM
How much did that B&D saw cost new in 1970??? How about those chisels and planes?
Something I've been wondering for a while now. For the price you "old timers" payed for American made tools, if I adjust for inflation can I still buy American.
I'm not quite sure what your point is. The B&D (circa ~ 1978) saw was a mid priced commercial duty saw. B&D made fine tools and had a great name. They began importing lesser tools and touting them as B&D quality. Today they don't show up in a search for commercial duty saws. Makita, Hitachi, Milwaukee, Skil and Bosch are the players there.
The Miller's Falls chisels were inexpensive chisels that I bought for jobs where I didn't want to risk my Buck and Marples chisels. I know I dropped one overboard when working from a dinghy on the transom of one boat and another fell into the bilge of a large steel sailboat. Turned out they had great steel that would hold an edge without being overly brittle. Ultimately Ingersoll Rand bought Miller's Fall and soon thereafter decided they didn't want to be in the hand tool business so the shut the place down.
I don't know if Stanley has a higher dollar line of hand planes made in America, but none that I have seen in stores has been.
Only three decades ago the shelves were full of serviceable American made tools. If there are yuppie versions available today I don't know, but the vast majority and the jobs producing them are gone.
The same analogy holds true in the automobile industry and all the "needle trades".
I think the point r8ingbull was trying to make was that he wonders how much it would cost to buy the tool(s) if they were still completely made in a factory here in the USA, from raw materials or components that came from sources within America and staffed with legal American unionized workers. At least that is what I assumed he was getting at. ???
That would be hard to quantify. Some have survived, Estwing and Milwaukee come to mind. Small companies have come on the scene making tools in America. Dead On tools established a good name and has now started to appear in HD.
A large part of corporate America went wrong. Some of the things they learned in business grad school haven't worked out. B&D went the route of selling lesser quality while touting the "genuine" B&D tradition. Today I don't think any folks associate the B&D name with superior quality.
Record used to be a manufacturer of fine wood planes. I have a Record rabbet plane that is one of my favorites. Here is a quote I came across on a woodworkers forum
"The Irwin conglomerate has now made some drastic business changes, and has
destroyed both the Record company and the industrial Marples company. the Jos.
Marples company still is there, as private. Irwin continues to make the Blue Chip
chisels in the Irwin name, who knows if they've changed that good steel to some-
thing cheaper. But, new Record anything is no longer being made. There is one
business in Germany that still has NOS Record planes for sale, no doubt at marked
up prices http://www.dick.biz/ . I saw ?79.xx for the 60 1/2.
Irwin is actually in the Rubbermaid conglomerate. Vise Grip is now under Irwin
as well, very sad shyte. http://www.irwin.com/ they also destroyed the Nooitgedagt
tool company in Holland!"
I do not believe it costs much more to build a good tool than an inferior one. But when, for example, the bean counters at Rubbermaid are running the show and start substituting softer steel for the plane iron the immediate result is a slightly higher profit margin. Then the market finds out and sales drop. Oops, we need to cut costs..... Let's use a hollow pin to hold the plane iron instead of the solid one ... and we can replace the metal handle with plastic. Sales fall off the charts and the response is "Oh well, I guess there isn't a market for American made tools. Let's shut down that division"
Quote from: John C on February 12, 2009, 08:05:09 PM
I'm not quite sure what your point is. The B&D (circa ~ 1978) saw was a mid priced commercial duty saw. B&D made fine tools and had a great name. They began importing lesser tools and touting them as B&D quality. Today they don't show up in a search for commercial duty saws. Makita, Hitachi, Milwaukee, Skil and Bosch are the players there.
I wasn't trying to make a point, just an honest question.
Right now I can buy a Stanley chisel for about $10 (made in china), or I could buy american for about $50. I have always wondered if the old american made chisels would fall into the $10 range or the $50 range when adjusted for inflation. I think $10 in 1975 is about $50 now.
I have a mid 1970's B&D 1/2" drill that still runs and gets used often. I know for certain a new b&d drill would never last that long. However my dad might have paid more for that drill 35 years ago than a new b&d drill costs now...
I own a hardware store, I see made in the US product getting changed to imported all the time. Sometimes we see a change in quality, but I have yet to see a drop in price when they do it...Being only 27 years old I don't remember when the majority of our stock was US made.
Quote from: John C on February 12, 2009, 08:50:48 PM
Irwin is actually in the Rubbermaid conglomerate.
Sales fall off the charts and the response is "Oh well, I guess there isn't a market for American made tools. Let's shut down that division"
I think these consumer product groups are to blame for a lot of this. B&D, Dewalt, Porter Cable, and Delta are all the same group now. Personally I believe these companies don't even think about US made. They buy the name brand and bring in cheap garbage, and sell it as high end equipment. They have a few years of this to make up the expense of buying the name, before the name is ruined.
A company doesn't have to sell very many chisels for $10, that they bought from china for 30 cents to make a profit...
I don't care for the inflation adjusted analogy. Manufacturing methods change. Adjusted for inflation a Skil worm drive saw is cheaper now than 25 years ago. More important Milwaukee and Skil make saws competitive with the current offerings from Makita, Bosch etc.
I've got a particular burr under my saddle for the Chinese stuff. You just don't know what you are getting. One of the guys I'm working for has a bunch of Chinese sledge hammers and wood splitters. The heads are all rounded over and splitting.... very soft steel for a hammer.
My old Marples chisels were made in England with Sheffield steel...... good stuff. They get bought out by Rubbermaid, production moves to China and the steel isn't as good.
You can get Japanese chisels, not fancy but good steel for $14.00 Czech chisels ~$11.00
Quote from: r8ingbull on February 12, 2009, 08:28:05 AM
How much did that B&D saw cost new in 1970??? How about those chisels and planes?
Something I've been wondering for a while now. For the price you "old timers" payed for American made tools, if I adjust for inflation can I still buy American.
I really don't remember the tool prices back then but this will give you an idea.
In 1972, I bought my first NEW car. It was a Chevrolet Rally Nova, 3 speed on the floor, bench seats, 307 engine and was on the showroom floor. I paid 2,300.00 for it. I looked at the Monte Carlo's that were pretty much the top of the line. They were around 4,500.00 as were the Vet's. Only rich folks could afford those expensive things.
I had just gotten out of college and was working as an explosives technician for the summer. This was dangerous work and paid very well. I made 2.25 an hour.
That gives you some idea of the cost of American made products Vs income.
According to the Inflation Calculator (http://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm) $10 in 1975 would be $39.48 in 2008.
1978 $10 = $32.58 in 2008
Wish I could recall some of the prices of some tools I bought back then. ???
The only thing that resounds in my memory is the purchase of three handheld calculators in 1977. $75 each and all they could do was the four basics, plus they had a memory. They were invaluable at the store.
1977 $75 = $262.90 in 2008. Not a fair comparison because of technology changes.
Quote from: John C on February 12, 2009, 09:18:48 PM
I don't care for the inflation adjusted analogy. Manufacturing methods change. Adjusted for inflation a Skil worm drive saw is cheaper now than 25 years ago. More important Milwaukee and Skil make saws competitive with the current offerings from Makita, Bosch etc.
Skil is owned by Bosch. It is treated as a low end consumer line. I don't think many 'Skil' saws are sold to professionals anymore.
The Skil model 77 is still a popular professional saw and still made in America at a competitive price. The original point was that we used to make a lot of things and now we make few.
I think we still do make a lot of things. In most consumer product categories you still have the option to buy american made. I think what you're seeing is less a result of a lack of US made, and more a result of conglomerate companies buying well known name brands and exploiting those names.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jarden
How many have ever heard of this company? Think they make anything of quality I would care to hand down to my grandchildren???
I have never heard of them and I sell hundreds of thousands of $$$ worth of their product every year...
Well I am not alone. I just said goodbye to an old 4" putty knife. I have had it for 20-25 years and it was just broke in. In fact a little too much. The end snapped off so it is now history. I went to Lowes and bought a Kobalt and it is stiff and so unlike what I had but what were my choices. And yes I still have a Marples chisel. I guess it will be the next thing to go.
I've seen both the fairly rigid "scraper" types and the very flexible types.
Good reason to avoid Lowes/HD...Is that US made or imported?
That should be available in 3 stiffness levels; Chisel/scraper, Stiff, and Flexible.
Import from china retails about $2
American made house brand retails about $5
American made brand name retails about $6
You guys are all a bit loopy, methinks, nothing is made in America anymore. All just computers, and outsourcing.
http://www.americansworking.com/
http://www.stillmadeinusa.com/
http://www.madeinusa.org/
http://www.americanmadesupplies.com/
Plus it seems to me that a number number of those hundreds of thousands of people wh0 have lost jobs over the past few months were employed in manufacturing. They all were not in service or financial markets. Locally (NM) there were many manufacturing jobs lost; solar and aviation come to mind.