http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28659165?GT1=43001
Give Bush his graduating grade. From MSNBC
Looks like the people overwhelmingly decided he didn't do so well. You can still add to his misery by clicking the above link as of 1-15-09
(https://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d184/glennkangiser/bushgrade.jpg)
The Grades A through D is his own party honestly voting for him, whereas the failing grade is the opposing party who do not like him. I would suspect if a similar poll came out after the Monica Lewinsky issue with Clinton it would be similar.
I believe you may have a valid point with that observation.
Although I believe mistakes had been made by George while in Office I would still give him a C+ or maybe a B- because despite his errors, he was able to keep this country safe after 9-11. What I mean by safe is that we have not been attack here at home.
With that said, I think any president who tries to be middle ground will indeed fail. The other side will never give him credit even if he gives in because he is on the opposing side, and then his own side will be mad because he has stepped away from his parties values/definition. Oh yes, and if you are not the media darling you really have no hope. Big brother is not our government it is the media.
rant rant rant rant rant....
I wish they had a grade lower than F
But even with that failing grade he would still graduate in this country. ;D
Well, my own feelings are that none of our presidents have made all good decisions or all bad decisions. None.
Overall, a B-
A friend of mine who was the Commonwealths Attorney for a nearby city, told me one night while we were visiting a bar...."Nap, your an a$$hole, a likable a$$hole, but still an a$$hole."
I feel the same way about Bush. I expect I would have enjoyed going to school with him but as President, he gets
FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
Oh Don, Teddy was a pretty good one. Actually, the only good one..Bully, Bully! ;D
While I think we are about to go from the frying pan directly into the hottest part of the fire, I can't give Bush any better than a D.
For those who have rated him more highly how do you reconcile his disregard for the Constitution, the exponential growth of government by someone who campaigned for smaller gov't, and his unwillingness to fight for budgetary restraint.
Bad day for a question about government. I had a property assessment hearing with the Equalization board this afternoon. My assessed valuation went up 66%. They admitted there were no comps in my area but basically said... "bend over".
If we can't feel safe in our country nothing else should even matter for we have no future.
Thanks so much President Bush for following your convictions you felt in your heart to protect me and my
country even though you knew you would be scorned by many for your actions. History shall be kind for
your faithfullness to protecting our nation but so sad you aren't respected for it now.
Hey Guys; its probably not a good idea to discuss politics on this forum for it can bring up
some negative thoughts which is kind of putting a cloud over this otherwise great helpful site.
Lets stop the president bashing. Haven't we had enough the last eight years?
Government was designed by our forefathers to protect our freedom to live life where and how we
want not the other way around. We are a great group of people who choose to have a plot of land
and build a cabin where we want and can call our own and can enjoy the freedoms that so many have
fought and die for.
Ok, Peter I'll give you Teddy and I'll raise you (in no particular order) a George Washington, an Abe Lincoln and a Thomas Jefferson. Toss in FDR for WWII, not for his 'New Deal".
For worst, again in no particular order, James Buchanan, Ulysses S. Grant, Warren G. Harding, Millard Fillmore and Franklin Pierce.
I've purposefully left more recent presidents off my list as I believe a longer look back gives us a better understanding. I believe some folks over rate Ronald Reagan and denigrate Jimmy Carter a little too much, for example.
For me an F would be way to good. I see President Bush and part of his Government in one line with some of the most brutal mass murders modern history has seen. Can you really not see what he has brought to some parts of the world? I know and I'll never forget what kind of tragedy happened at 9/11. I worked in the Twin Towers myself for some time and lost some wonderful colleagues in this terrible attack.
But I have also lived and worked for nearly six years in the middle east as a young fellow after I had finished university. Mostly in Khoramshar/Iran and Basra/Iraq. Again, I made friends with some of the most wonderful people I have ever met. But most of them are dead now. Thank you Mr. President!
Jochen
I note that GWB's F score has risen to only 45% of the respondents now.
Quote from: Jochen on January 15, 2009, 10:11:16 PM
For me an F would be way to good. I see President Bush and part of his Government in one line with some of the most brutal mass murders modern history has seen. Can you really not see what he has brought to some parts of the world? I know and I'll never forget what kind of tragedy happened at 9/11. I worked in the Twin Towers myself for some time and lost some wonderful colleagues in this terrible attack.
But I have also lived and worked for nearly six years in the middle east as a young fellow after I had finished university. Mostly in Khoramshar/Iran and Basra/Iraq. Again, I made friends with some of the most wonderful people I have ever met. But most of them are dead now. Thank you Mr. President!
Jochen
Jochen, the mainstream media here does not report most of what you know, but I follow the alternative news - the news from other countries and where it is happening over the internet, and I have to agree with you. Murder is still murder by any other name.
Smart bombs, precision strikes, shock and awe, collateral damage...still all murder. A bloody "F" in my book.
I can't give the outgoing administration credit for saving us from terrorists, as there is too much evidence that they at least allowed 9/11 to happen ...but the evidence points to much more than that.
Soon we shall see if the plan continues to be carried out. Hey, how about that bailout... d*
I would rate him as a D-. Many things will be attributed to George Bush. MAny started many years before his terms. History will call him for what he truely is.
As of today (after years of supporting him) I rate him as a slacker with hidden agendas.
The plans that are being carried out are above all political offices and way larger than just the US.... still our puppets are part of it. I can't give George credit for all of it...but he is a player.
Quote from: karnf on January 15, 2009, 09:39:37 PM
If we can't feel safe in our country nothing else should even matter for we have no future.
Thanks so much President Bush for following your convictions you felt in your heart to protect me and my
country even though you knew you would be scorned by many for your actions.
I agree, but disagree at the same time. I think all the action taken was either very carefully engineered to seem protective, or ignorant to the suffering that actions like this manufacture. I lean toward the former, with a hint of the latter, shaken, not stirred.
Hey Guys; its probably not a good idea to discuss politics on this forum for it can bring up
some negative thoughts which is kind of putting a cloud over this otherwise great helpful site.
Lets stop the president bashing.
depends on whether or not people decide to take others opinions as a frontal attack on their own. If they do, I have probably offended many, and although I really enjoy discussing with all of you, I'm sorry, but that's your problem. I'll be sensitive to the point of never trying to hurt anybody's feelings, but sometimes it still happens when you say what you think.
Haven't we had enough the last eight years?
I love the way my Libertarian friend Dino puts it, 'I hate it when people say "Bush sucks", why does he suck, "because he sucks &&&^", well why does he do that? "because he sucks"' Sometimes people have no thought behind their feelings toward someone, but sometimes they should have something to back it up with. Too much bashing perhaps, but most of it warranted, IMO.
Government was designed by our forefathers to protect our freedom to live life where and how we
want not the other way around.
In my experience, they work everyday to keep that from being a possibility. There are even laws out there that kept us from renting a 2 bedroom house when we had 1 boy and 1 girl! Nevermind that they were 4 and 1 year old!
We are a great group of people who choose to have a plot of land
and build a cabin where we want and can call our own and can enjoy the freedoms that so many have
fought and die for.
Never forget all the great "traitors", who spoke out against political injustices they saw/felt going on, I think they were called the founders of our country, but I may be fuzzy on that. ;D
Please don't think that I am trying to slam you at all, I agree with parts of what you say, and the intention (I think) behind other parts, but you helped my response reduce its typing!
As for our dear President, I give him a C+ I think. First term B to A-, but after info was out (whether true or not), and he maintained his stance, it dropped a lot.
In my opinion hiding from it and saying nothing only lets the guilty get away with their crimes.
Evidence points to the Bush administration using 9/11 to further their interests and at the least allowing if not assisting the event for profit.
I don't want to get into an argument about it with anyone here as I consider all of our members as family and like family I will try to convince you all to look at the evidence and open your eyes to the things that don't make sense if the event was an actual attack on us and not set up or allowed to happen for fascist profits and power.
I will continue to try to get people to look. One of my young helpers who I taught construction about 6 years ago came up to me the other day and mentioned that guys at his work are now saying the same thing I have been preaching to him. He just tells them, I knew that 6 years ago... Glenn showed me what was happening.
Hiding from it will not change the situation. Only by opening our eyes to what authority is up to and seeing that it is not good for our country, can we convince other citizens that real change is needed....not Osbama change. Real change. The criminals must be removed from power for America to once again becomee the country our forefathers knew.
Not looking and avoiding the issues because they are unpleasant will do nothing. Look, please. Question, please. Research the questions for the answers.
I am a pilot, and knew the minute it happened that it could not have been accomplished without inside help. The standard safeguards would have prevented it from happening if they were not blocked by the stand down order from Cheney. Bush was basically running around trying to keep from getting blown up as he was told the secret codes for his plane whereabouts had been intercepted by the "terrorists". Wonder who handed the codes to them? hmm
This issue is still pertinent as the whole string of events we are experiencing now pivoted on the 9/11 event. The financial crisis was already an issue and 9/11 may have averted attention from it but it was still on its way. Look at the profits made from that alone.
To use a word that Bush invented, I am in "agreeance" with you Glenn. We must look. We must question. We mustn't take for face value that our leaders have our best interest, or that of any other people in any other nation, at heart.
For what he may or may not have done (it is all so convoluted and fuzzy) to keep us safe and sound, I salute Mr Bush. For all that he did in the other direction, well, the people seem to have already spoken out in such a way that Obama was basically a shoein, just on the basis that he is not republican! Whether it were he or Hillary, I think either of them would have won, because so many Americans are just sick after the last 8, and were scared of McCain. I myself have my own reservations regarding the man, but think he would have made a fine president.
Whether he did good, or bad, I think that it is important to recognize Bush's service to America, even if it was for more of a personal reason that he did the things he did, and even if he wasn't really thinking of us when he did them! Being the leader of a nation can't be easy, and in the immortal words of Mr T., "I pity the fool!"
I don't really talk about my real feelings about this much. It upsets people, but.......
We were attacked on 9/11, it's not the first time even though the Government acts like it was. The truth is, someone's been trying to bring that building down for years. These aren't rocket scientists we're dealing with and I have seen no evidence of an organized terrorist group trying to do a followup.
All I've seen were a bunch of clowns like the "Shoe Bomber" ::) more or less acting alone or with little guidance. Lord knows, it would be easy enough to hit hundreds of targets. Someone could stop a truck loaded with light explosives in the middle of the Hampton Roads tunnel, detonate it and kill hundreds of people while shutting down the Eastern Seaboard. Duh....why didn't these brilliant terrorists think of that
(http://www.roadstothefuture.com/I64_HRBT.jpg)
Bush used the attack and kept the fear going, to advance security programs. Why...who knows. Ask any cop and they will tell you it makes their job easier. It covers up all the real problems in thi country and helps to keep people on a short leash. Just ask Edgar Hoover!
No, Bush didn't protect us or lead us or do anything beneficial for this country. He's just an A$$hole. I decided that when he looked me in the eye and said "You will have to give up some freedom to stay safe" Not me Junior!!!!!!!!
I gave the man an F though that was probly being kind. IMO he should be put on trial. A fair trial followed by a speedy hanging. If you haven't seen it you should watch the movie "The Siege". It does a pretty good job of explaing what's going on in our little world and what might happen if guys like Bush and company have their way. You can view it for free at hulu.com.
Lets ask these people to give Bush a grade...
Families of 911 victims
Families of slain Iraq soldiers
Victims of Hurricane Katrina
Disenfranchised voters in FL and OH
Valerie Plame
Sick 911 rescue workers
1 million Iraq families who have lost a loved one
Detainees proven innocent who were beat and tortured at Guantanamo Bay
Osama Bin Laden - because hes still not captured
I still say Osama is living in Crawford, Texas.
Osama was a CIA asset and was visited by CIA agents while ill in Dubai in the hospital in July of 2001. There was a $2000,000.00 reward on his head at the time. The meeting was tried to be kept quiet. The reporter said the meeting was cordial - they were buddies. We did not want him then...or now.
He was only a bogey man to be used to keep the sheeple in line.
A military intel friend of mine said he never knew Bin Laden to lie and Bin Laden said it was not him that did 9/11 - he said it was our government.
After that the lying tapes from our government production company started producing the fake Osama tapes and videos. That way he would say what they wanted -- no matter that the tapes were fake -- they got the idea out to the sheeple and that was all that was required to get it into their tiny little minds. From then on it was gospel.
Quote from: karnf on January 15, 2009, 09:39:37 PM
If we can't feel safe in our country nothing else should even matter for we have no future.
Thanks so much President Bush for following your convictions you felt in your heart to protect me and my
country even though you knew you would be scorned by many for your actions. History shall be kind for
your faithfullness to protecting our nation but so sad you aren't respected for it now.
Hey Guys; its probably not a good idea to discuss politics on this forum for it can bring up
some negative thoughts which is kind of putting a cloud over this otherwise great helpful site.
Lets stop the president bashing. Haven't we had enough the last eight years?
Government was designed by our forefathers to protect our freedom to live life where and how we
want not the other way around. We are a great group of people who choose to have a plot of land
and build a cabin where we want and can call our own and can enjoy the freedoms that so many have
fought and die for.
karnf, you are right about this possibly not making everyone feel great, and I know that people who chose not to face these issues do not continue to read them. We must do it if we really care about our neighbor and fellow man.
It is important to discuss these issues here in the off topics section as this directly affects our families and the very reason many of us are choosing to build in the rural areas and away from major population areas a bit.
While it may not be pleasant it is a fact of the times we are in and will affect us, our families, our children and our way of life even if we choose to ignore it. If we ignore it we cannot influence the future. If we are aware of it we may make future choices that will influence the outcome by influencing the attitude of the masses. Not looking is not healthy.
If we are to help ourselves we must realize that the people running the country and financial system are overcome with greed.... not benevolence. They don't care an ounce about the working class and would knock us down and use the stack of bodies to climb the ladder to wealth and money. I can't say success because as an insider security agent I met said, "I would not have thought they would go this far to forward their cause." To sacrifice the 3000 people at 9/11. He was talking about our government insiders, He had direct knowledge and agreed they did it.
I can't thank Bush for protecting me from an inside job. Sorry. 9/11 was what they call a false flag operation and more and more people are recognizing it as such. They assisted it to forward their and Israel's agenda.
The supposed hijackers (who were not listed on the flight manifests} were mostly Saudi's and many were trained at our military bases. The Saudi's are Bush family friends as are the Bin Ladens (Google Bandar Bush) -- business partners with daddy Bush at the time - Carlysle group. All he had to do was say, he buddy, how about a little help here.
So we attacked Afghanistan first --- Unocal said we needed a regime change there so the pipeline could go through.
Security here for giving up our freedom --- oh yeah - we still have the freedoms between the scribed lines.... I will not even fly due to the TSA humiliation? They have not caught one terrorist but have inflicted terror on many.
karnf.. rest assured that I only bring this up for the benefit of those I may get to open their eyes. Hiding from the facts helps no one. I am willing to die for my country as my forefathers and family fought for my right to do. No problem, but that does not mean that our leaders are protecting us. They are stealing from us and destroying the country we and our ancestors love in return for protecting us from the very terror they are creating. [waiting]
Our government is not in this alone --- the so called coalition of the willing are pretty much in this together. Big players, US, GB, Austalia.
Please continue to bear with us and learn -- stop believing what the main stream media feeds you -- research it on the internet before they close it down or put us on WWW2 where they control it also.
Best to all. Lets continue the friendly discussion. :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtnE4C9Gv5U
8 years in 8 minutes
A family member sent me that last night. Unbelievable. I'd say 98% of it I knew about. Its a good test to see how much news you've followed in the last 8 years.
I thought his mentioning Pat Tillman 3x was important.
Glenn,
I walked away from the digraceful biased "mainstream media" a year and a half ago. I will not
be controlled by their opinions and their so called reporting the news. Enough said.
All in all, I agree with karnf.
Not a single one of us was sitting in on any of the security briefings that Bush received every single morning.
I have to say that anyone who believes 9/11 was an "inside job" is more than mildly insane.
I gave Bush a B-. I would have given him a higher grade if:
1) NAFTA had not been advanced.
2) Borders tightened as a matter of federal priority
3) Wars were run by Generals, not politicians
4) Bailout $$$ were NOT provided
5) Pardons provided to the border agents.
The primary thing that I do admire about Bush, was that he takes a long time to make a serious decision, and when he did, he stuck to it. Even though some of those decisions I didn't agree with, I have to admire his ability to hold his ground. We won't be getting this with our new president.
Every bit of the media is distorted. Mainstream, not so mainstream, people's BLOGS, whatever.
This is what I know:
Since 9/11, there has not been any major terrorist acts here in the US. I'm struggling to think of US targets abroad that were serious.
My family's financial situation is mostly better. Better income, although investments are down.
I am concerned with the economy. I think lazy US workers (and unions), and crooked finance types are to blame. I can't pin that on Bush.
All, in all, I still think a B-.
-f-
Quote from: glenn kangiser on January 19, 2009, 01:40:09 AM
8 years in 8 minutes
Keith Olberman is not exactly what you would call 'neutral' in his reporting; rather he comes from the far left. MSNBC, his employer, is also not exactly neutral in the slants they impose in their reporting of the news. Historically Olbermann is hard on Republicans, but soft on Democrats. As well, I feel he commonly has hypersensitive overreactions to events.
Let it be noted that Saturday Night Live accurately depicted Olberman as a pompous, dishonest buffoon who regularly takes things completely out of context, or just plain makes things up, in order to lambaste Republicans. There's a lot of truth in humor at times. Yet the media never reported a whisper of that, while they had all sorts of fun with Palin. They wouldn't dare; Olberman is one of their own cherished icons.
It took me a while to find the following, but here it is; Ben Affleck plays Olberman. I guess the left wing liberal Affleck does have a sense of humor. Here's a link to the Olberman segment from SNL along with a transcript for those with low bandwidth.
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2008/11/02/snl-skewers-olbermann-pompous-buffoon (http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2008/11/02/snl-skewers-olbermann-pompous-buffoon)
So far in this thread I have not graded...
B = Bush
Quote from: NM_Shooter on January 19, 2009, 11:00:52 AM
This is what I know:
Since 9/11, there has not been any major terrorist acts here in the US. I'm struggling to think of US targets abroad that were serious.
I think it pretty much runs on a 10 year plan if I remember right. That doesn't spell too much good for the coming years. What I am trying to say is, it may not have made a bit of difference that our government proceeded to scare the life out of so many of us after 9-11. Maybe they were just waiting for their 10 year cycle to come back around for the next one. Scary, and sad thought. Recite Psalm 23 here.
Wow. Pretty sloppy grammar on my part. I gots to type less and proof read more.
For a while after 9/11 the "FOX News ALERTS" (ya, I watch FOX News) were way out of control. Yes...our country will never be the same for sure, but we cannot live in fear. We need to move ahead with some resemblance of hope and keep our country safe. As far as Olberman goes...he does brings up important issues with the Bush Administration even though he swings far left. I've tried to defend Bush, but just can't anymore. He didn't give a crap about the environment and I don't think he really has a clue how the American folks live and work to get by each day. Where did he think all the money was coming from? Foreign oil?...Monopoly money? Just keep printing more...?
Obama has his work cut out for him.
As far as a grade for Bush goes...He did keep us safe from another attack so I wouldn't flunk him completely and oh ya, he gave us each a $600 bonus last year to cheer us up!
F+. I guess that is a flunk.
Quote from: NM_Shooter on January 19, 2009, 11:00:52 AM
I gave Bush a B-. I would have given him a higher grade if:
5) Pardons provided to the border agents.
-f-
Well, looks like Bush did a little extra credit work. http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-general/20090119/Bush.Pardons/
I'm raising his grade to a B.
Hmm -- he finally did something I approve of. :)
With the existing ATC rules and procedures in 2001, 9/11 could not have happened without inside help. There is no more to it than that. It doesn't matter what the small details are. That simple detail is fact.
I was actively flying and had my instrument and commercial license. The procedures at that time would have had an airforce intercept on them within minutes. The stand down order was not normal operating procedure. The AT Controllers made a tape regarding the happenings immediately. Their superior destroyed it.
Any one who does not see the discrepancies on 9/11 has chosen to keep themselves uninformed, and I can sympathize with that. No one wants to believe their leaders are that evil, but the greed that has caused the financial collapse should give you an idea of the caliber of people we are dealing with.
glenn you know I love you, BUT......
When you make the statement
QuoteAny one who does not see the discrepancies on 9/11 has chosen to keep themselves uninformed, and I can sympathize with that.
you are assuming (to justify your position) that people have not scene/investigated the issues. Some have and yet still believe it was not an inside job. Some have come to the conclusion that those in charge at the time were incompetent. Discrepancies might be seen, but a different conclusion has been drawn for others. Is our government evil? of course man is sinful, but I do not believe the great conspiracy of 9-11 and because I do not subscribe or share the same conclusion as you does not mean I kept myself uniformed because I am in denial of our evil leaders.
I still love you glenn in a non sexual harassing way, but I disagree with you.
Oh yes, it is ALL YOUR FAULT!
I see discrepancies in many of the claims made by the so called '9/11 truthers'.
Just to pick on one claim, that the towers were demolished with previously planted explosives. To me it is easy to understand how the twin towers fell. A large jetliner crashed into them at high speed. Thousands of gallons of burning jet fuel, plus the combustion of the building contents, rugs, curtains, furniture, reams of paper, not to mention all the plastics, heated the structure. Heated steel is very malleable. Ask any blacksmith. The shear weight of the building above the flames became too much for the steel to support. The steel did not need to melt, the heat and weight caused it to deform and that led to collapse. There was no need for explosives to have been planted.
As for the pre 9/11 air interception rules, for decades all our concerns had been focused outward. We were looking for Soviet air and sea intrusions; aircraft, missiles, submarines.
Many military installations such as the High Speed Test Track at Holloman AFB, Area 51 in Nevada, and portions of the Mojave Desert and so on, have always been no fly zones. If one tried to overfly those areas you would have an Air Force fighter soon appear, as those places have their own military aircraft. The pilot would indicate to fly one direction or another. What would happen if you chose to ignore the directions? The fighter would have appeared very menacing. But they would have no immediate orders that would automatically permit the pilots to shoot down the civilian aircraft.
Those orders would have to come from very high up the command chain. I would not expect there to be enough time for the orders to work their way through the system, pre 9/11.
And NO, I have not chosen to keep myself uninformed. I consider myself well informed. I have waded through many pages of 9/11, and other, conspiracy theories (mars lander, man on the moon), and watched the conspiracy theorist videos. They are replete with poor science and misinformation disseminated as scientific evidence.
Previous experiences have shown me there's absolutely no point in trying to debate the issues surrounding 9/11 with anyone who believes the attacks were an inside job. It's akin to attempting to convince an avowed atheist that God exits, or vice versa. That's why, until now, I've never bothered to challenge the conspiracy beliefs. I'm not getting drawn into a fruitless attempt at logical discussion, so that's that
Too many things don't add up. The investigation was a white wash. Government officials have been very elusive when questioned about the investigations. While I don't belive that airliners brought down the towers I can accept it may be possible that they did. But how do you explain building 7? No plane hit it. No jet fuel burned inside it yet it collapsed too. Looking at video of the burning building it does not appear the be fully engulfed in flames only pockest of fire are visable. I would be more inclined to belive the offical version if the government would have been more open about the investigation. Why did Bush stall the investigation and try to underfund it? They gave us too many reasons to question the official version IMO. I also belive the 9/11 truth movment has been peppered with disinformation to discredit it in the eyes of the public.
I belive 9/11 was a false flag attack followed by a poorly executed coverup. Why did we invade Iraq? Bush himself admitted that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 yet prior to the war all we heard on TV was Iraq had a hand in 9/11. We need to invade Iraq because of 9/11. Now after the fact they try to pretend they never said that. I know they said it because I saw the prpaganda on TV myself. Why did we invade Afghanastan? The hijackers where all from Sudia Arabia. Why didn't we invade Saudi Arabia? It doesn't add up.
You give Bush a B. Ok that's your opinion but he has admitted to breaking the law and dared anyone to do anything about it. He refused to obey orders from congress he refused to answer questions under oath. If he is guilty on one single federal crime or even guilty of violating his oath of office he should be in jail. He doen't care one bit about the constitution he said so himself. I think it's sad that people think it's ok for him to break the law since he was suposedly protecting the country from terrorists. The law may not be perfect but it is the law for a reason. To prevent half baked wanna be dictators from abusing peoples rights. Who gets to decide which laws are ok to break and who gets to break them? That argument is BS and I don't buy it. Bush has done and said more than enough to at the very least deserve to be investigated and they won't even do that.
/rant off
I agree ScottA with you on certain aspects of what Bush did (regarding the constitution) but where was congress, the senate and Supreme court justices? The President holds a third power and yes it can run amuck when the other branches do not step in, they are just as guilty with their complicity.
No argument there. I agree 100%.
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin
This is the flawed argument Bush defenders use... sacrificing one for the other.
Abraham Lincoln generally comes up in the top three of the best president's who ever served, no matter who is making up the list.
Abraham Lincoln assumed all powers not delegated in the Constitution, including the power to suspend habeas corpus. Bush did basically the same thing.
I don't infer that Bush is as great a president as Lincoln, or that Lincoln was a bad president. I simply bring this up for those who have forgotten, or maybe were never taught that part of our history. Something to ponder.
Bush had a welcome home rally in Midland Texas... He seems to think he did a fabulous job and has no regrets. ??? He doesn't believe he passes on a burden to future generations... ???
I have defended Bush in the past, but never with the loss of freedom in mind. He WAS our Commander in Chief and we didn't have another attack on his watch for 7 years. I am glad his reign is over though.
I honestly don't believe 9/11 was an inside job. I do question whether flight 93 was shot down. The military knew exactly where that plane was going.
Quote from: MountainDon on January 20, 2009, 07:06:16 PM
Abraham Lincoln generally comes up in the top three of the best president's who ever served, no matter who is making up the list.
Abraham Lincoln assumed all powers not delegated in the Constitution, including the power to suspend habeas corpus. Bush did basically the same thing.
I don't infer that Bush is as great a president as Lincoln, or that Lincoln was a bad president. I simply bring this up for those who have forgotten, or maybe were never taught that part of our history. Something to ponder.
Uh sorry Don but when Lincoln's name is mentioned here in the South, we have to spit to get the taste out. He was a very bad president.
There is an interesting article on backwoods home about the best and worst Presidents. The writers primary criteria is how closely the President abided by and upheld the Constitution.
His list and the article is here http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles/silveira49.html (http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles/silveira49.html)
"In each tier, I'll just list the Presidents chronologically:
On the first tier I would put almost any one of the first 15 Presidents, and a few others. This would include:
George Washington
Thomas Jefferson
James Madison
James Monroe
John Quincy Adams
Andrew Jackson
Martin Van Buren
John Tyler
James Polk
Zachary Taylor
Millard Fillmore
Franklin Pierce
James Buchanan
Rutherford Hayes
James Garfield
Chester Arthur
Grover Cleveland
Benjamin Harrison
William McKinley
Warren Harding
Calvin Coolidge
Herbert Hoover
Howard Taft
On the second tier I'd put:
John Adams
Andrew Johnson
Ulysses Grant
On the third I'd put:
Harry Truman
John Kennedy
Gerald Ford
On the fourth:
Theodore Roosevelt
Woodrow Wilson
Dwight Eisenhower
Lyndon Johnson
Richard Nixon
Jimmy Carter
Ronald Reagan
George Bush
Bill Clinton
And at the bottom I'd put:
Abraham Lincoln
Franklin Roosevelt "
Of course, I agree with Scott. Good expression of fact, Scott.
Don, with all of the heat that could melt steel, how do you explain this? Asbestos lady?
(https://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d184/glennkangiser/asbestosladywtc.jpg)
Sorry - no heat - at least not enough to keep a person from walking across the building. Steel is my work and I was a blacksmith working at a forge for a while. The WTC was no where near a forge. How the cutting charges got there is not something we can answer but there were opportunities. Steven Jones - ex-BYU Professor proved the presence of thermate.
Controlled demolition as was the other two buildings. There were no blowers - tuyeres as required to to get the fuel up to steel melting temperature. The chairs rugs etc going down the elevator shaft to melt steel -- that was a good one - no air with the solid fuel-- that is what you do to put a fire out.
Buying the official ridiculous explanation is only for those who don't want to see or dig into the scientific facts and at least coming up with questions if not answers. I'm not putting anyone down for taking the easy way and just accepting the lies you are handed. It is what the masses have been trained to do. The system is geared to make you accept lies and not question authority no matter how ridiculous the lies they tell you.
White is black and black is white. Orwell 1984
Quote from: StinkerBell on January 20, 2009, 12:46:21 PM
glenn you know I love you, BUT......
When you make the statement QuoteAny one who does not see the discrepancies on 9/11 has chosen to keep themselves uninformed, and I can sympathize with that.
you are assuming (to justify your position) that people have not scene/investigated the issues. Some have and yet still believe it was not an inside job. Some have come to the conclusion that those in charge at the time were incompetent. Discrepancies might be seen, but a different conclusion has been drawn for others. Is our government evil? of course man is sinful, but I do not believe the great conspiracy of 9-11 and because I do not subscribe or share the same conclusion as you does not mean I kept myself uniformed because I am in denial of our evil leaders.
I still love you glenn in a non sexual harassing way, but I disagree with you.
Oh yes, it is ALL YOUR FAULT!
I'm, a whore, Stinky, but they can't buy me that easily... [waiting]
...and of course I still love you too, even though you are misled easily. I realize you can't help it though. That's what love is all about... :)
I am not misled. I know my logical and rational mind scares you.
No it wasn't the mind, it was the curlers. [crz]
Quote from: glenn kangiser on January 20, 2009, 11:53:44 PM
Don, with all of the heat that could melt steel, how do you explain this?
He/She is outside the building, away from the fire?
That must have been a terrifying time for him/her.
Quote from: glenn kangiser on January 20, 2009, 11:53:44 PM
Buying the official ridiculous explanation is only for those who don't want to see or dig into the scientific facts and at least coming up with questions if not answers.
That is your opinion, perhaps a theory, nothing more. Your are entitled to your opinion. However, don't try to twist an opinion or theory into incontrovertible truth. That would not be scientific.
In closing...
Quote from: MountainDon on January 20, 2009, 12:52:10 PM
Previous experiences have shown me there's absolutely no point in trying to debate the issues surrounding 9/11 with anyone who believes the attacks were an inside job. It's akin to attempting to convince an avowed atheist that God exits, or vice versa. That's why, until now, I've never bothered to challenge the conspiracy beliefs. I'm not getting drawn into a fruitless attempt at logical discussion, so that's that
John, I've noticed that different polls or studies by different people have placed different presidents in quite an assortment of placings. I had not run across that one. Using that criteria I can see how Lincoln could be poorly rated. Lots of ways to look at anything.
No one can say that American history is a dull subject. :D
White is black - black is white.
She was identified although I didn't remember who she was .
No longer terrified - she is dead - that was the opening on the side of the building. That is plain to see if you only would.
Quote from: glenn kangiser on January 21, 2009, 12:36:52 AM
No it wasn't the mind, it was the curlers. [crz]
You know that picture makes me look HOT!
For the curious among us.
(http://www.brightok.net/~cyscott1-ss/temp/fig_5_20.jpg)
This building fell down due to fire so we are told.
(http://www.brightok.net/~cyscott1-ss/temp/500_Burning_building.jpg)
This one did not fall down.
Both are steel framed structures.
Securacom, Wirt Walker CEO(Bush Cousin) and Marvin Bush (Dubya's brother) BOD coincidently were the security company in charge of the WTC, Dulles and United Airlines. They were newly hired by Silverstein as the WTC security co. They were not before that time. . Good coincidence, eh? The buildings had been closed off and on for computer work etc. previous to 9/11. First terrorism insurance was taken out by Silverstein a few months before the PNAC plan was enacted - I mean 9/11/2001
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0kPQiubqN4
Old stuff here but worth repeating for those who still think terrorists destroyed the WTC and not vested interests from here helping it along with assistance from US and Mossad trained insiders.
The WTC 7 we are talking about was reported to have fallen 20 minutes before it happened then the mess up was covered over by BBC. Since there were no major fires in it and since Silverstein screwed up and later admitted "pulling it" on TV it is obvious it was controlled demolition. As you can see in Scott's presentation above, it takes a big fire to destroy a steel building. They don't just fall.
Since this one was admittedly demolished, then there is little question that the planes and fire in the other two were not the cause of their destruction. They were built to withstand a plane of similar size hitting them - they did not fail because of the planes, and the first day their designer said no way -- after getting leaned on he changed his story.
The BBC's 'WTC 7 Collapsed
At 4:54 p.m.' Videos
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/bbc_wtc7_videos.html
For crying out loud... use some of the logic that you claim to possess.
Watch any of the collapse videos. Note that they collapse FROM THE TOP DOWN.
Let's say you wanted to completely demolish a building, and you didn't want anyone to know what was going on.
First of all, you would have to have the entire army of maintenance workers that sustain that building on your side. No way could you rig that amount of explosives without getting caught. So all those workers would have to be part of the "inside job". Oh... and by the way.. they would have to be willing to all die for your cause.
Second, you would want to rig the explosives so that you used the least amount of material. Traditionally, this would be charges AT THE BOTTOM of the structure, right? But we know that didn't happen. The building collapsed from the top down.
So.... the person who placed the charges, must have done so to trigger the collapse from the top or middle of the structure.
And of course, you want this to look like a plane caused all of this right?
So that plane has to fly exactly into the right section of the structure. Oh... and your pilot of choice is someone who has never actually flown a jet before. You are willing to risk that he chickens out, or misses the structure, or gets shot down, or a passenger thwarts the attempt. Now you have one tower standing, which would be completely laden with explosives. You'd be willing to take that chance.?
Let's say that your pilot flies into the building, where you had all your thermite / C4 whatever rigged up. You've never collapsed a building of this size before, so there really is no model for experience. The plane whacks into the side, and knocks out debris onto the street. Absolutely none of your explosives are displaced to be found. How lucky is that!
And your pilot hits in exactly the right spot where your explosives started. Not below, because that would be suspicious if the building exploded UPWARD. We know that was not an experienced pilot. A perfect shot. How lucky was that!
No explosive devices were found by any of the thousands of rescue / recovery workers who helped initially, nor were any found by any of the thousands of cleanup crew. You either have exceptional recruiting skills for your inside job or you are very, very lucky.
I was not told that the building fell down due to fire. The bottom was not on fire. I was told that a section of the building was weakened by the force of the plane striking, and further weakened by the heat from the burning fuel. This caused a small part of the building to collapse, and the rest was taken down by the millions of tons of weight from the section above crushing the building below.
The shear amount of data / common sense that plays against the conspiracy theory is overwhelming.
If you have the time, read this... note especially what it says about the use and amount of thermite:
http://www.debunking911.com/thermite.htm
-f-
Thanks for the additional links and commentary, Frank. I did read the entire first link you posted and some additional links from that page and I have to agree with you that the evidence provided for thermite or thermate is not conclusive, but neither are the other explanations for anything having to do with this.
"Thermite in general makes an ugly hole with molten metal drips/blobs. It doesn't make clean cuts. It's a powder that undergoes a violent chemical reaction as seen in the video below."
As a welder I can tell you that their example of a clean cut is one of the worst uses of an oxyacetylene torch I have ever seen. I can also agree that I have seen junkers using a torch that would go ahead and make a nasty cut like that with a dirty torch.
As for the top falling first, there were seismic occurrences recorded at the time both buildings fell consistent with the base of the core being blown out then that immediately pulling the top down then the collapse proceeded. No -- I don't have all of the answers but everyone has lots of questions.
The pilots were not chosen by me. They are from the official government conspiracy story. They were incapable of flying the planes as depicted by the government. They were identified by the government but there were no Arab names on any of the passenger lists. Remote control of the planes was already a capability at the time so it would not have been necessary for these guys to fly the planes. Remote control was immediately used in Afghanistan in the hunt for Osama with the pilots here in the US. The planes used already were remote capable. No proof there either, but as much as the official story has.
I also have to admit that the 9/11 truth movement has been infiltrated by those who want to take away credibility from it so that not all that is seen there is credible either. It goes both ways.
FYI, there is another topic on 9/11. It may be found at
http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=2014.0 (http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=2014.0).
It was started a few years back. It would be awkward to shift the 9/11 content of this thread over there at this point. I'm cross-linking the topics though to provide readers with more opinions.
There is a very informative article available in PDF form (57KB) at Implosion World (http://www.implosionworld.com/news.htm#1). The download link to their article on the WTC is at the top of that page.
The document is protected, otherwise I would have copied and pasted portions of it here. It is well worth reading. Unlike websites dedicated to proving one theory or another about 9/11, the company behind this website has been involved in demolitions since 1970. See the 'about' link in the left hand sidebar for more information about the company and website.
From the website; "... implosionworld.com has never lost sight of the fact that reporting accurate information is essential to its purpose and remains the most important element of its existence. If one characteristic of explosive demolition has proven consistent over the years, it is that there never seems to be a shortage of "hype" around these projects, and the implosionworld.com team's goal has remained simple: To report timely, useful and factual information in a way that does justice to the blasting specialists worldwide who work diligently to keep structural blasting safe, while continuously experimenting with new ways to impress us all."
The site also has other pages of information and photos regarding explosive demolition of buildings in general. They even have a series of tapes of demolitions available for purchase.
What I find very odd about building 7 is the fact the they ordered the fire department to evacuate and 20 minutes later it fell down. It's like someone knew it was going to happen. Add to that the fact that atleast 2 news services reported that it had already collapsed about the same time the fire department was pulled out. Very odd.
Read paragraph titled "collapse" here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_World_Trade_Center
I was going to take a side in this argument, but then I rethought my statement, and came to a conclusion:
No one will win this argument. It will remain a mystery like JFK, Roswell, the extinction of dinosaurs, and evolution. Some are eager to question everything to find something that will sustain their reality; Others will cling to any explanation they are given in an attempt to blind themselves to a harsh and indiscriminate world. Whichever kind of person you are makes no difference in the larger scheme of life. Protect your family, try to be happy.
Bushes grade: D
Why: I believe he mishandled the country, the wars, and was never open enough with the public. Through every event I always wondered: "When is the President going to start saying something?" He always did, but always a little too late. He may be a good person and had good intentions, but our country is worse than when he left.
You can't blame him for going to war with Iraq. I am just as guilty of cheering him on when our troops rolled acrossed their border. Only after it was in a few years did I realize it may have been a blunder. I don't think I'm the only one who felt that excitment and patriotism at first but slowly realized what happened later. History will not judge Bush, It will judge all of us as The American Civilization. Call it growing up, but I went from a "Kick their A$$" attitude to thinking about the suffering we may be causing to other nations and cultures.
Quote from: Bishopknight on January 22, 2009, 01:47:55 PM
Building 7 collapse is not mentioned in the 9/11 Commission Report
The collapse of WTC7 was not included in the report as that was not included in the directions given to the commission. The commission was
set up on November 27, 2002 "to prepare a full and complete account of the circumstances surrounding the September 11, 2001 attacks", including preparedness for and the immediate response to the attacks.
The commission was also mandated to provide recommendations designed to guard against future attacks.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_Commission
The WTC7 was not directly attacked, just as the buildings next to WTC7 were not involved in the intial attacks. Seems logical to me.
I believe Dylan Avery's video Loose Change (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7866929448192753501&hl=en) is probably held in high esteem with most 9/11 Conspiracy Buffs. There is a counter version of Avery's work called Screw Loose Change (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3214024953129565561&hl=en).
Screw Loose Change takes the viewer through the Second Edition version of Avery's masterpiece, with the bonus of critiques. There are web url references included. Unfortunately the authors used tinyurls for the referenced web sites and some of them don't work anymore. Fortunately the ones that work are gems of information, stuff that doesn't readily come up on a Google. (FYI, the problem with tinyurls is that id the referenced page is moved on the target website, the path chnaged in any way, the link goes dead.)
I have not followed all the tinyurl links but have followed a number.
One that sticks out is where a airplane rental flight instructor, Marcel Bernard, is interviewed about the abilities of Hani Hanjour, one of the hijackers. Quoted from Avery's version... "The standard evaluation consists of one-to-one-and-a-half-hour flights east over the Chesapeake Bay area. Hanjour paid $400 cash and provided a valid pilot's license from Arizona. He failed because he showed problems landing the airplane and the flight instructor had to help him."
However, the makers of Screw Loose Change found the rest of the interview. After the above statement that Avery did show, Marcel Bernard went on to say, "But Hanjour's problems were nothing unusual. "There's no doubt in my mind that once (Flight 77) got going, he could have pointed that plane at a building and hit it."
Very convenient editing for the perspective pushed as truth by Dylan Avery, and swallowed hook, line and sinker by those who prefer to believe in a conspiracy.
And there is more misrepresentation and pure deceitfulness on Avery's part. But you'll have to view the video. Or alternatively you can go to Screw Loose Changes sister website (http://www.loosechangeguide.com/LooseChangeGuide.html) and read the blow by blow disection of Avery's duplicity.
Another resource that should be read is Frequently Stupid Theories (http://lolinfowars.co.nr/)
QuoteNo one will win this argument. It will remain a mystery like JFK, Roswell, the extinction of dinosaurs, and evolution. Some are eager to question everything to find something that will sustain their reality; Others will cling to any explanation they are given in an attempt to blind themselves to a harsh and indiscriminate world. Whichever kind of person you are makes no difference in the larger scheme of life. Protect your family, try to be happy.
I can live with that.
Which reminds me. Don kinda looks like the roswell alien drawings I've seen. And he does live in New Mexico. Very odd.
And FWIW, I don't believe there's anything of a conspiracy regarding the Roswell Incident; that is I do not believe an alien craft crash landed that day. :D :D I have been to the Roswell Alien Museum, or whatever it's real name is, and thought it was humorous and very low budget. ;D I may be odd though. ;D ;D ;D I need to get some new tin foil.
I read the Wikipedia article bearing in mind that they are editable and writable by anyone. The Firefighters in the building had different stories from the NIST and FEMA. Their experiences were not allowed in the 9/11 report.
I still have to refer to the obviously standing lady in the opening of the WTC - she did not melt in the supposedly melted steel, and also to the points brought about the NIST study and other discrepancies by David Ray Griffin.
http://911review.com/articles/griffin/nyc1.html
9/11/2001 radio broadcast: "...I was just standing there, ya know... we were watching the building [WTC 7] actually 'cuz it was on fire... the bottom floors of the building were on fire and... we heard this sound that sounded like a clap of thunder... turned around - we were shocked to see that the building was... well it looked like there was a shockwave ripping through the building and the windows all busted out... it was horrifying... about a second later the bottom floor caved out and the building followed after that."
A collection of events surrounding WTC7
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/cutter.html
"Consider the facts:
* The fires in WTC 7 were not evenly distributed, so a perfect collapse was impossible.
* Explosions occurred in WTC 7 before it sustained any damage from the twin towers' collapses.
* Silverstein said to the fire department commander "the smartest thing to do is pull it."
* Firefighters withdrawing from the area stated the building was going to "blow up".
* The building subsequently collapsed perfectly into its footprint.
* Molten steel and partially evaporated steel members were found in the debris."
I don't so much believe in the aliens at Roswell as that it is cover for secret goings on.
I do believe in Don though. :)
To answer the topic question, a low side D.
Our Country is a mess.
http://www.hadenough.us/4stepstofascism.html (http://www.hadenough.us/4stepstofascism.html)
The last act of a failing government, is to loot the nation.
sparks
Quote from: sparks on January 23, 2009, 12:40:30 AM
The last act of a failing government, is to loot the nation.
That's pretty much where we are now. :-\
-f-