I am ready to start the plumbing in my 1.5 story 20x30. There will be a kitchen sink, a bathroom sink, toliet, shower/tub and a washer and dryer. I am definately using the Pex tubing. I was going to run 1/2 through out the house. Should I use a manifold for the hot an a manifold for the cold side? Thanks Pete
I would and put shut off valves on each line at the manifold.
I used a manifold for the hot and cold side and put shut off's at each location too.
Thanks for the info. ScottA, should I run 1/2 or 3/4 into the manifolds??
3/4 into the manifold for certain. I've seen some with 1" inlet. You can buy them with valves at each branch line built in.
Yep. What Don said. ;)
Here is what my distribution looks like. 3/4 inlet, split to the water heater and then to the manifolds. 1/2" distributed to all the fixtures.
(http://www.ouramericanadventure.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/DSC_7214.jpg)
What type of fittings did you use in the system? There are several types, and I've been trying to figure out which type is "best". I've got to replumb an older farmhouse this summer using PEX, and looking thru the PPFA Design Guide I notice a variety of fitting types.
There are three systems; Wirsbo/Uponor is generally acknowledged as the best. Then there is one that uses annealed copper bands to crimp; those are the ones where there are a different tool or a different sized tool head for each size. Then there is the system that uses stainless steel clamping bands; only one tool needed for all sizes, but the S/S clamps cost more than the annealed copper crimps rings.
Wirsbo tools cost more but you still save oodles of money compared to having the entire job farmed out to a hired plumber. Wirsbo/Uponor fittings are not interchangeable with the others.
Thanks for the reply. In some homes built nearby I've snooped enough to see copper crimp rings used in one, stainless rings used in another, and metal compression sleeves used in a third. I haven't caught up with a plumber to find out the relative merits of each type. ??? perhaps cost? I just want to put in a system that will be put in ONCE. (read- I hate repair work). So a few extra bucks on fittings is a small price. The manifold system surely looks like the way to go.--Dave
I used Wirsbo/Uponor. I can honestly say, I don't think there will be a failure of the connection. In about 5 seconds, you couldn't pull it apart. It takes about 30 seconds for the hose to shrink fully. You get an aweful lot of compression in the full 30 seconds. It takes me a better part of 5 minutes to shred one apart if I mess up. They are truly strong.
Wirsbo/Uponor uses an expander tool to stretch the PEX tubing. As phalynx stated, the fitting is inserted and positioned before the tubing shrinks back to size; about 30 seconds. Then a ring is slid over the joint to secure it. The plumber that did my home re-pipe used this.
I have one of the tools for the S/S clamp rings. I chose it because the Wirsbo tool was hundreds of dollars more and I only had a small project. One other reason was that the tool does not fit around the band, making it a little easier to use in cramped quarters. Plus one tool does all sizes.
I've also used the tools for the annealed copper rings. They work well, but I still prefer the S/S over it, for working in crowded quarters mainly.
A fourth system us the specially slip on fittings like the Sharkbite brand name. They are super simple to use and require no special tools. However the fittings cost about six to ten times as much as the standard PEX. Great for a small job or a repair but I'd never use them for an entire house. They do work well, though. I have used a couple on a 1/2" copper line.
Wirsbo/Uponor requires that you take a short certification course and that you be a contractor to get their product, but I have heard of non-contractors being able to get the supply co. to certify them in some cases. They do not want anyone to improperly install their system.
I prefer the Uponor system as I feel it has less chance of a leak than the crimps. My opinion.
Quote from: glenn kangiser on January 06, 2009, 11:35:59 AM
Wirsbo/Uponor requires that you take a short certification course ...
There sources now that anyone can use for this style of connection. Not the genuine product but completely interchangeable.
http://www.pexsupply.com (http://www.pexsupply.com) has all three.
I was thinking there was something but couldn't remember where. Thanks for the link, Don.
I bought fittings and clamps from them, but I bought my tool on eBay. Fittings were about half the price at Lowe's; I saved a lot even with the shipping costs.
I bought my tool from them with no problems at all.
Any suggestions on how to install it so that I can drain it out easily? I will be using it in the winter and need an easy way to drain it out so the manifolds and the system doesn't freeze. Pete
You just need a air fitting. Hook it up to your air compressor, turn off the water, open the valves.
The good thing about PEX is it doesn't break when it freezes. You can release the pressure, and let it freeze. It just expands.
I'm thinking of using compression fittings, but where can I find a compression tool? I found a site on the internet that demonstrated its use, but haven't found the tool. It has 2 ends, one expands the tubing, and the other end then is used to pull the compression fitting tight over the end. I've used the crimping tool on some Habitat for Humanity homes, and it worked fine, but am interested in the compression fittings. Why?? Well, my wife asks me that quite often...I search for an answer.....
www.pexsupply.com has them. That's where I got mine.
Thanks. That is what I planned on doing. Any suggestions as to where I should locate the air fitting?
It seems to me there is no real advantage to using a PEX manifold. It just increases the amount of PEX pipe needed, requires additional stuff (the manifold), and makes it more difficult to get hot water to any faucet (because of that extra length pipe)(unless you insulate all your hot water lines).
Granted it does give you the ability to turn off any "circuit" easily, but we didn't have that ability with copper piping, so do we really need it with plastic piping?
What am I missing here?
I hear what your saying. I was thinking the same thing. The benefit of the manifold that I see is that there are no fittings inside the wall that could fail or leak. I was going to use the manifold and be able to access it with a door. Pete
Quote from: peteh2833 on January 06, 2009, 04:48:29 PM
Thanks. That is what I planned on doing. Any suggestions as to where I should locate the air fitting?
It should be located as close as possible to the place where the piping enters the house. Everything down strean can then then be blown out.
Regarding PEX being able to withstand freezing; true. However, that does not necessarily apply to fittings.
Quote from: n74tg on January 06, 2009, 05:16:23 PM
... and makes it more difficult to get hot water to any faucet (because of that extra length pipe)(unless you insulate all your hot water lines).
Well, number one, there's nothing wrong with insulating all the lines, hot and cold. I've seen some upscale homes here that do that. Insulating cold prevents condensation and dripping. Insulating hot preserves the hot water.
The PEX tubing is not all that expensive when purchased in large rolls. At the very least if I was plumbing a new house I would install 2 small manifolds (H & C) so I could turn off the water to the showers and tubs from a distribution center. Showers are a PITA when it comes to working on them as in most homes you have to turn off the whole house. Ditto for the lines to the exterior hose bibs and the laundry machine supply faucets.
Also remember if you do a manifold system you do not need individual stops at each sink or toilet.
In most cases I don't think there will be much loss of extra heated water when using a manifold with separate lines to points of use. Some things like the kitchen sink and dishwasher are close enough together they should share the same hot supply line. But it won't make much difference to manifold or not, if after running the dishwasher the next hot water use is in the master bathroom. In many homes they are widely separated. That will of course vary from design to design.
Along that thought for some uses like the laundry it does not make any difference at all. At least our laundry machine senses the fact that the first inflow of water through the hot pipe is cold and it makes allowances for that.
Is there a connector to go from the PEX tubing to the line/fitting on the toliet and sinks??
You can use PEX to 1/2" FPT, then use the appropriate s/s braided flex hose to connect to the faucet or toilet.
Or here's a special connector, PEX direct to the fixture.
(http://www.pexsupply.com/img/categoryImages/hydropex-swivel-faucet.gif)
I believe the proper way to do that would be to run the PEX to a stub L and solder a fitting to that.
(http://www.pexsupply.com/img/categoryImages/hydropex-copper-stub-ell.gif)
The copper stub would be secured firmly to the framing, cut to required length. They have a PEX end and a closed end so you can hook everything up and pressure test. Then cut off the end and complete with the appropriate connection fitting.
a side note: PEX should not be left exposed to direct sunlight.
Is it bad to run Pex straight out of the wall and to the fixture and use the first connector? Pete
I don't really know pete. All I can say is the licensed plumber that did our re-pipe used the copper L's, under every sink and toilet and the city inspector loved his work.
In our cabin I'm not using the L's. I'm using the PEX. It's all under the sink, enclosed and even with the cabinet door open will never see direct sunlight as it faces the north wall. No inspections.
So keep in mind that the mechanics of the PEX are different from copper.
I am going to paraphrase this, as it was related to me on the phone awhile ago.
With copper, you want to keep the flow rate lower, to not subject the pipe to erosion. With PEX, you want to keep the flow rate higher (smaller diameter) as PEX accrues and grows some sort of fungal / mold substance if the water does not move.
Since you use smaller diameter to keep the flow rate up, this is pretty seriously affected by the number of fixtures that are on the tube...both pressure-wise as well temperature. Using a manifold can help to reduce the effects of small diameter feed tubes.
The manifolds can be fairly expensive, but why buy them when they are easy to make?
-f-
I found some on www.pexsupply.com that are inexpensive. I'm going to use the ones without the valves and just add my own ball valves and it ends up being $30 cheaper that way. The valves are 14.99 each and I need 8 ball valves for them. Pete
There are angle stops that go directly on the end of the pex and a curved bracket that nails right to the stud to support the angle stop and the pex. The pex just bends and latches right into the nailed on bracket.
I for one don't really buy into the "no fittings" being all that much of a benefit in terms of reliability. The only times I've experienced a leak in a pipe was when someone drilled or drove a nail into one doing an unrelated project. I am sure fitting failures do happen, but I would bet it is usually due to improper installation, either not properly glueing/soldering or not properly supporting the pipe. Plus, if you're going to use the copper elbows, then do you have hidden fittings anyway.
I do think there is some benefit to the manifold concept, the largest one being that it almost completely eliminates pressure fluctuations. So no more freezing or burning up in the shower when someone flushes a toilet or starts the dishwasher. Of course a properly designed trunkline plumbing system can perform well in this respect as well.
I think the biggest benefit to PEX is installation ease, just pull the pipe and terminate the ends. Being somewhat freeze tolerant is nice too, particularly in a building that may be unheated sometimes. Even with blowing out pipes, you can still get some water in them that can freeze.
You are correct in that the no fittings in the wall doesn't really matter much. It is primarily a labor saving benefit that comes along with PEX tubing in long (up to 1000 ft.) rolls. The exception to that would be when using PEX, as the fitting fits inside the tubing reducing the interior diameter. Copper and CPVC fittings, on the other hand, fit over the pipe. So with PEX try to keep the number of fittings to the minimum.
Quote from: cfabien on January 08, 2009, 04:12:23 PM
So no more freezing or burning up in the shower when someone flushes a toilet or starts the dishwasher.
Modern pressure temperature regulated shower and tub fixtures totally eliminate this problem. They are divine. I have retrofitted them. They work so well that if you slowly turn off the cold or hot supply line to the fixture the flow out the shower head (or tub fill) slows and stops at the same time the supply line valve is fully shut. Ditto on a toilet flush, dishwasher filling, etc.
Another advantage of PEX... many of the the copper lines in our area are dissolved to foil in a few years due to minerals in our water.