Hello all,
I've been lurking here a while and decided I should go ahead and introduce myself so - mainly so I could start asking questions. We bought 3 acres in Ashe County, NC about a year ago. Ashe County is in the NW corner of NC bordering TN to the west and VA to the north.
Photo from our property looking south. The North Fork of the New River is just visible as a glint of sunlight near the center of the photo
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2276/2167719490_b0322bc1eb.jpg)
Shot of the morning sun shining through the mist coming off the river
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3199/2943947087_75258f99d2.jpg)
Shortly after purchasing the property I started looking around the web for cabin ideas and knew I'd hit the jackpot when I found this site - plans for small but attractive cabins that cater to the owner/builder - yes! The forum is great and I have really been inspired by others' stories and pictures.
As my title suggests we're planning on a 20x34 1.5 story, though nothing set in stone at this point, and have purchased John's 1.5 story plans. When will we get started on the cabin? Hard to say. Right now we've got a small pop up camper on the property and have also brought up a picnic table. I've built an outhouse at home (3.5 hours east of the property) and plan to take that up in pieces over T-giving weekend and install it.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3286/3001490670_20ddda06ba.jpg)
I've also got a deck built for an 8x12 shed.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3008/2910240318_2e19c9ac57.jpg)
Other things we've done to the property - had electric brought in ($2500) and had the road in regraded, added drainage culverts, and gravelled it ($4000). Our road contractor also does septic systems and estimated that ours would be in the neighborhood of $3500 - a real bargain compared to what I've seen others have paid for systems in other parts of the country.
Again - this site has been a real inspiration and I look forward to contributing information on our progress.
w* pickngrin. Good to see you drop in.
We'll eagerly be watching your progress.
pickngrin glad to have you on board. Your area looks a little like mine. What kind of elevation is at your site?
Your name indicates that you might be into older music are you? Are you between Ashville & Johnson City. Smokey Mt. area ? Not really that far from the Wild & Wonderful state up I77
Does your county or state require "certification" of septic systems? It's not required in parts of Alaska but, I have found that if your system does not come with that 'birth certificate" many banks or credit unions will not finance the cabin----may not matter to you, but may be a problem if you try to sell it sometime in the future. Something worth exploring before you build it. ???
Thanks Mtn. Don.
Redover - our site is at about 3000 feet. In the winter we can see Phoenix Mtn across the river - it's about 4600 feet. So not real high up, but high enough to be about 10 degrees cooler than at home and cool enough in the winter for regular snows, which we hardly ever see at home. Yes, definitely into older music. I grew up watching HeeHaw and listening to my folks' 45s from the 50's and 60's. Love bluegrass and honky tonk country. I play guitar and sing in a fledgling bluegrass band called Yesterday's Pickles.
http://www.myspace.com/yesterdayspickles (http://www.myspace.com/yesterdayspickles)
Asheville is about 130 miles to our southwest. Johnson City is about 70 miles to our west, but it's over the mountain so it's about a 2 hour drive. The closest town to us is the combined hamlet of Jefferson and West Jefferson - about 15 minutes away. They have a Lowe's, Wal-mart, etc. I trout fish in TN fairly frequently and to get there I travel up I-77 to Wytheville and then take I-81 south from there. I know it's not much further up I-77 to the WV border - where are you located?
rwanders - yes, the county requires septic systems to be permitted and inspected. In fact, outhouses are legal in the county only if they're permitted and inspected. I thought about bypassing all that on the outhouse, but then thought better of it since we do hope to have a septic system someday and I didn't want discovery of an unpermitted outhouse to negatively impact the septic permitting and inspection process. I hope to be be able to build the cabin on a pay-as-we-go basis so hopefully no banks or credit unions will be involved.
Hope to get a lot of materials second hand - we have a Habitat Restore at home where I recently picked up a corner booth-type dining set for the cabin. I also check out Craig's list a lot. I'm supposed to pick up a woodstove for the cabin today that I found on Craig's list. Link to the add: http://raleigh.craigslist.org/fuo/910011986.html (http://raleigh.craigslist.org/fuo/910011986.html)
Anybody have any experience with Century woodstoves? The one I'm looking at is 2 years old, but has never been used. It's a plate steel stove, which I don't have any experience with. I have a cast iron Jotul Castine at home that we love.
Thanks all.
w* pickngrin.
The plate steel stoves generally hold up well especially if they have a fire brick lining or at least a grate to get the wood off the bottom when clean. Ashes insulate well also to protect the steel. Super hot fire with lots of oxygen - air flow will eat away at the steel but it doesn't get that hot and fast in most situations.
You started off right putting the dancing on the deck photo there --- we almost require one of those here.
Thanks Glenn. The stove I'm looking at has a firebrick lining.
I thought the dancing on the deck photo would be appreciated.
hey... are you in Raleigh? I'm in Apex. Was just out that way last weekend camping in Doughton Park off of the Blue Ridge.
pickngrin
Check your PM box.
Yep, in Raleigh. I've fished Basin Creek in Doughton Park - pretty area.
Made it up to the property last Friday - Sunday and got the outhouse installed and some other work done around the place. I was pretty pleased with how quickly we were able to reassemble the outhouse on site and get most of the finishing touches done. I still plan to paint it and install a vent pipe, but that can wait. Now I just have to hope it passes inspection.
Here are some pieces and parts:
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3169/3075448245_f7ea8b5432.jpg)
And the finished product:
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3243/3079052620_3625454876.jpg)
It's not much progress as compared to what some folks on this forum have done, but it always feels good to get up there and get something done. One small, though necessary, step towards building a cabin.
I also made some fixes to the shed deck. I made a rookie mistake and forgot to trim the 8' joists down so that the building width would be 8' (instead of 8'3") when I added the rim joists. I used a recip saw and a jig saw to get things straightened out. Only took about an hour to fix.
A neat thing that happened on the trip was the discovery of a view I had never noticed. We've owned the property for a little over a year and I knew that we had a winter view of a short section of the North Fork of the New River, but as I was looking out towards the river this time I noticed that I could see much further upstream than I had previously realized - up to a point where the river makes a sharp turn against a rocky cliff that is maybe 30-40 feet high. I'll definitely have this view in mind when deciding on the final location of the cabin.
Weather permitting I hope to make it back up over New Year's weekend to do more work on the shed.
Finally - I ended up not buying the woodstove I mentioned in a previous message. It was in great shape, but it was just too small. I think it was maybe Maine Rhino who said something to the effect of it's much easier to build a small fire in a large stove than a big fire in a small stove. That makes some sense. I'll keep looking.
pickngrin any progress is always good progress. Make sure the privy is bolted tight. I can just visualize the meditation and the sides fall down. ;D As for the view. When the leaves come off your land usually takes on a new prospective. Mine is a little on the down side as you can now see it whereas in the summer you couldn't. ;D
Haven't used ours in years but it didn't have a front door, so we could just sit there and look out over our subjects in the valleys below...
Not to worry, it's bolted down tight and walls aren't going anywhere. Before building this we were using a luggable loo type thing. I went up with a buddy in October to do some fishing and one morning I turned around and there he was sitting on the throne up on top of the shed platform. Whoa! Don't want to see that again.
I can always remove the spring from the door to enjoy the view from the seat:
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3223/3075461197_54d630d1d6.jpg)
Of course an open door doesn't do much good to keep out the 3 year olds. "Dad, what are you doing in there?"
pickngrin your outhouse made me think of this ;D
http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=5583.msg71420#msg71420
I actually witnessed a porta-potty toppling while someone was in it. I was at a big, outdoor party at Virginia Tech many years ago and saw some guys topple a porta john while another guy was in there. The porta john ended up on its back and when the door opened (it looked like someone was opening a coffin from the inside) a very angry and very blue individual emerged. I always felt bad for that guy and hope he eventually got even with the culprits.
That was pretty crappy of them wasn't it... [crz]
Hope everyone enjoyed the holiday season and are off to a good new year. I had almost two weeks off for the holidays and got to get up to the property for four days. My goal was to frame up an 8x12 shed/cabin prototype/future bunkie and build an 8x12 deck off the front. Of course I let myself think about getting some siding and windows done if things went really well. I accomplished my goal but no more, which is better than it sometimes goes.
I started with this:
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3004/2910238640_785e883eb7_b.jpg)
. . . and ended with this:
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3088/3172509488_6064983875_b.jpg)
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1147/3171674587_1e3ee4524a_b.jpg)
I have done a very little bit of framing on a similar sized building several years ago. The first wall on the shed went up in a flash, on the next one - the one with windows and a door - I was breaking out the John Wagner framing book. I had never measured, marked and cut rafters so I had to refer to the book on that too.
I think I could've made a bit more progress had it not been for two delays. The first was a dusting of snow the morning after I arrived. It all melted by the afternoon, but it was enough to make the roads pretty slick and necessitate slower speeds and a bit of caution. I was out in it early, pulling my trailer and waiting to turn into Lowe's and a guy behind me got sideways as he pulled into the turn lane. I pulled forward as much as possible and he got it under control before crunching the trailer.
The second delay was caused when I was using my hammer to pound a 2x4 brace off one of the walls and as it came loose and tumbled to the ground one of the nails in the board went right through my air hose. Hsssssssssss - oh crud. I had to make two 40 minute round trips to Lowe's to get a new air hose and then to get some plumber's tape since the fittings weren't sealed in the package. Nonetheless I was pretty happy with my progress, and, working alone, I was happy there were no injuries.
What do you think of the color scheme of my boards? There are actually only a few new boards in the shed that you can easily spot by their light color. I got the darker studs and the rafters from the local habitat for humanity restore. The rafters are pt wood - picked up a bundle of 36 8' 2x6's for $100. I got most of the decking boards for free from a friend who was having his old deck redone. I love free stuff and am happy to keep good stuff out of the landfill.
Question for the forum: I'm planning to build a roof over the deck/porch but I'm not totally sure how to tie the rafters for that porch into the building. I'm thinking of just using 2x4s for those rafters and then 1x4 purlins spaced every 2 feet or so topped off with 5v metal roofing. It seems like the best option is to rest the 2x4 porch rafters on top of the cap plate of the front wall and next to the 2x6 main building rafters. If I go this route though I'm not sure how I'll do the bird blocking between the main building rafters since a 2x4 will be running into that space. I'm hoping to go with open rafter tails and I wasn't planning to build an enclosed porch roof, i.e., there will be no ceiling to the porch, when looking up you'd just see the rafters, purlins, and underside of the roofing. Hope this makes sense. Thanks for any suggestions/advice on how to handle this.
One more quick question - this will not be an insulated building so do I need to worry about venting the roof?
Thanks all
A little bit of cutting for the 2X4 in the Blocks but you could do it. Notch the 2X6 blocks (1-1/2" X 3-1/2") on one end to allow for the 2X4 rafters. If you went 16"OC on the porch you could just sister them along side of the rafters if you used 16OC on them.
As for the vents are you going to use sheeting or purlins on the roof? Remember that the metal will sweat irregardless of insulation. My porch sweats in summer with a rain. If you are not going to insulate then I wouldn't vent it. But I would sheeet it rather than strip it w/purlins.
I used 24"OC on mine but I didn't have to contend with sistering on the rafters. You might also PU a pitch diverter for the metal because you will not have that much tucked under your roof from the porch.
(https://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd161/redoverfarm/hightop/100_1561-1.jpg)
I will also send you a PM
ED: repaired image tag - MD
Looks nice.
Thanks for the feedback. Redover - I'm going to use osb sheathing on the main roof. I was thinking of sistering the porch rafters to the main roof rafters as you suggest.
I'm not sure I know what a pitch diverter for a metal roof is - I assume it's something to help keep water/wind out where two sections of differently pitched roof meet?
For some reason I can't see the picture in your post, but I cut and pasted the link into another Firefox session and can see the picture that way. What do your porch rafters tie into on the wall side? Do they go through the log wall?
A pitch diverter is a piece of the roofing material that has been bent to varing pitches of two roofs. Usually 12" wide by 12' long. One edge is slipped under the upper roof and the lower lip falls on top of the lower roof. I guess you could do it with regular flashing if you had to but it would not fit well on the lower roof leaving a gap .
I bolted a plate against the log wall and then used hangers for the rafters.
12 inch wide aluminum flashing is readily available and will easily accommodate any pitch change.
That is what I was saying but there is a couple of drawbacks to using it in this application.
1. There will be a gap left when the flashing sits on top of the peak portion of the roof, That being the distance or elevation of the peak & valley of the metal roofing.
2. If you are in a snow region that will be where the snow will accumulate. There could be a potentional ice daming problem and water will back up under the flashing. I think the diverter is pressed to the same design ( at least one side)as the roofing and a butyl strip is placed between the diverter & the roof and then screws to draw it tight.
But as they say it is just a porch so a little drip probably wouldn't hurt as long as your rocking chair is not placed below it. ;D
After several readings I think I'm following you. Not sure I'm going to go to the trouble to track down a diverter for the shed building. If the metal roofing supplier has them handy then great - otherwise I'll probably skip it.
Redover - what is the siding on the addition section and gables over the log walls on your place? Is that real board and batten or battens over something else? It looks really good. I'd like to do something similar on our cabin. The shed is just going to get T1-11.
Quote from: pickngrin on January 07, 2009, 08:59:04 PM
After several readings I think I'm following you. Not sure I'm going to go to the trouble to track down a diverter for the shed building. If the metal roofing supplier has them handy then great - otherwise I'll probably skip it.
Redover - what is the siding on the addition section and gables over the log walls on your place? Is that real board and batten or battens over something else? It looks really good. I'd like to do something similar on our cabin. The shed is just going to get T1-11.
The diverter is probably a special order as they would have to know the color, and what pitch to pitch you wanted to make it up per your roof.
As for the B&B on the cabin it is 1X8 (7/8" X 7-1/2") pine with 1&7/8" batten also 7/8" thick. It is coated with a oil based semi-transp stain. I will go back over it with a sealer later. A small detail that you probably can't see is that I champhered both outside edges of the batten strips. That was done in some of the original B&B's. It sort of blends the wall a little better.
Made it up to the property this past weekend and got a fair amount done on the shed/cabin prototype. Started by getting the gable ends framed. I then moved on to some bird blocking, but realized I didn't need to get that done before putting up the siding, which was my big goal for the trip. So we switched to putting the siding up. Got all that done except for one gable end. Put in two windows and a door so now we can lock the place up. Of course there's no roof yet . . .
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3346/3254069100_24246b0ab6_b.jpg)
I hope to get back up in a couple weekends to get the roof on. I know it's not ideal to leave the T-111 edges exposed to weather, but that's how it goes. I'm still not 100% sure how I'm going to deal with the transition between the main roof and the porch roof, but I have an idea. As you can see I had to trim the rafter tails just to be able to open/close the door.
So far this has been a very useful experience for getting me thinking and planning on what it's going to be like building the 20x34 cabin. I'm glad that my first experience with a 12/12 roof won't be on the big cabin.
Picked up a copy of 3D Home Architect and plan to start messing with that soon. I don't anticipate many changes to John's plan - really just stretching the length by 4 feet. Hopefully I can figure out how to use the program (no guarantees there) and will be able to post my floorplan ideas for feedback.
Big thanks to my mom who came along on this trip to keep the youngster entertained. In addition to the shed building going on there were several fairy houses built and lots of books read at the picnic table with temps in the 30's-40's.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3501/3254065940_ee34a16e97_b.jpg)
png
png good progress for the weekend. With the roof on you will be able to at least camp out once the temp's raise a little.
Tri State Components in Sparta can bend custom flashing and stocks a fair number of colors. I would imagine your supplier can as well. Usually the transition is a simple folded piece like a valley, the lower edge is hemmed, or folded back on itself to stiffen and make a nice bottom edge. There should be foam closure strips compatible with the metal profile you are using. The strips go on top of the transition flash for the house side metal and under it for the porch side.
Flashing AT1 in this guide shows their transition metal,
http://www.fabral.com/downloads/details-postframe.pdf
Their installation detail drawing is on page 23
Thanks Don - I don't actually have a supplier at this point. I was just thinking ahead to when I get to roofing the actual cabin. When the time comes I'll have to check out Tri State Components. For the shed roof I'm just going with 5v tin roofing, which seems more geared toward utilitarian applications so I doubt a custom pitch diverter would be available.
png I got my metal from "lifetite" and they offered a diverter. As long as the color and rib configurations are the same it wouldn't make any difference. They used to just "jam" the shed up under the other but it did nothing to keep the water from ice dam to leak into the main house. When you are going from a steep to gradual pitch change that is where the snow will end up at.
Redover,
I thought about the shed roof/porch roof junction more last night. I was originally thinking I'd have the porch roof entirely under the main roof - like you've done on your cabin and shown in a picture in this thread - but I'm not going to have much room under there unless I trim the rafters really short. I guess this is a result of ~8' sidewalls and a 12/12 pitch roof. So I'm thinking of sistering the porch rafters to the roof rafters, which would mean I should have some sort of pitch diverter. So I'm back to thinking about using a piece of 12" wide aluminum flashing as a makeshift diverter. Of course this brings up the issue you pointed out about there being a gap left where the flashing goes over the ridges and valleys of the roofing. So how to deal with that. Do you think I could just use some kind of roofing caulk/tar to help seal up these gaps?
I'm not too concerned about snow as we're not in a real heavy snow area. A total of 19" is predicted this winter by this site: http://www.raysweather.com/Fearless+Forecast (http://www.raysweather.com/Fearless+Forecast) Of course we have had something of a snow drought over the last 20 years. Snowfall totals have failed to reach the 49 year average for 16 of the past 20 years.
Question about your porch columns. I assume you used a draw knife to peel the logs? Did you let them dry before setting them in place? I really like the look of log posts for the porch but don't want to use them if it means putting off finishing the building while I wait for the posts to dry out.
Thanks
When it does snow there it typically doesn't hang around too long.
PNG They make a sealer strip. Foam that will contour to the ribs. It is flat on the top and only coutoured on the bottom which would be ideal for this application. I would use it and apply a good caulk material to the bottom side only after it is applied (not that much only to backup in case the adhesive fails). It is self adhesive and comes in a roll to tear off individual pieces to match the width of your sheeting.
As for the post. They were almost dry when I put them up. They probably sit in place for a month or two before staining. But you need to get the bark off and at least let the first couple of layers to dry. What is the worst that could happen. You might have to go over them again but you are not talking about that much area anyway. Best time to get your post is in the spring when the sap runs in the trees. The bark comes off so much easier than during the fall and winter. If you ever notice the bark faced post and rails that you see. They are harvested in the winter and the bark stays on them.
Have you bought your metal yet? What company made it?
OK, I think I follow you on the adhesive backed foam. Sounds essentially like weatherstripping?
Do you prefer any particular species of tree for use as posts? I'll probably go that route for the main cabin, but will likely use pt 4x4s for the shed porch posts. I found one in my mom's crawl space so I'd only have to buy 1 or 2 more unless I can scrounge up some others.
Nope haven't bought the metal. I usually just get the stuff at Lowe's or the local Agri-Supply: http://www.agrisupply.com/product.asp?pn=11747 (http://www.agrisupply.com/product.asp?pn=11747)
Though to date I haven't used it in an application with a ridge peak - it's been all shed roof stuff. I'm assuming I can find some sort of ridge cap.
Png I used locust. But some say that was a little overkill. It is heavy but should last out my life time and part of my sons as well. They are 10-12" dia. It is also resistant to most insects. If you have tree's on the property you could probably utilize them. But if they are exposed find a way to elivate them off the deck so water will not lay under them. I used a piece of mining conveyor belt then lagged them down from underneath.
Ridge cap. Yes. Anyone that sells metal also sells ridge caps. They sort of go hand in hand. The diverter can probably be ordered from whom you buy the metal from. They are usually a SO item. But IMO it is the best to use. I looked and they do have the ridge. You might ask them about ordering a pitch diverter. The foam is usually the depth of the peak to the flat plus 1/4".
http://www.agrisupply.com/aluminum-ridge-cap/p/11764/cn/3600001/
Made it up to the property last weekend and got the roof put on the shed. We got there Friday around noon and left Sunday morning about 9:00. Flurries to snow showers were expected for Sunday but when we woke up Sunday morning the roads were already covered. So I was happy to get as much done as we did on Friday afternoon and Saturday. In our haste to get packed up and get home I ended up leaving our trailer at the property and all my tools locked in the shed. Hopefully everything will be in order when we go back, probably next weekend. We're supposed to get 2-4" of snow in Raleigh tonight and then it's going to be in the 70's next weekend. I've heard they got about 8" of snow near our property so far today. Hopefully that will be melted by next weekend.
On the porch rafters I ended up just nailing them to the roof rafter tails. There's room underneath them to put some kind of ledger board for additional support, but I'm not sure that's even necessary. The porch rafters still need to be trimmed and the porch roofing still needs to be done. There's lots of other little detail work to do before the place is called done, but I'm happy it's at least got a roof. I left off the roofing screws at the bottom end of the roofing on the porch side so I can shove some flashing under it and then put the porch roofing under that.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3582/3309378088_7b43dabde3.jpg)
I didn't think roofing the 12/12 pitch was too difficult, but I'm glad to have some experience on something smaller and not as high before taking on the full size cabin. I still may decide to contract out the roof of the main cabin.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3606/3309374514_1dbd9fa725.jpg)
With the amount of time and money that have gone into the shed so far I've been thinking that I need to scale back the main cabin from the 20x34 I had been thinking to maybe something like 16x30. I picked up 3DHA and have come up with these floor plans for a 16x30 with a loft that is similar to Rob LeMay's 16x24 cabin in the country plans gallery.
Main floor:
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3604/3320672505_551a96291b_o.jpg)
Loft:
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3555/3323790447_ea118c6d43_o.jpg)
I'd really appreciate any feedback people care to provide on these. A point of clarification: the big rectangle to the right of the front door is a placeholder for a wrap-around booth-type dining set that I picked up at the local habitat for humanity. It came with two benches that attach in a 90 degree orientation and a table. There was no good way to depict this in 3DHA, so I just put a rectangular table there that is about the same size as the benches and table combined.
Some other background that might be useful - this will be a vacation/weekend/getaway cabin for us. Home is about 3.5 hours away. The people who will be using it most often will be my immediate family- wife, son (3.5) and me. My mother and mother-in-law will likely be joining us on occasion. I'll also be using the place for fishing trips and hosting 4-5 guys.
The 16x30 plan seems to accomplish everything I want out of a cabin, but there's at least one problem, the space between the dining area and the pantry (under the stairs) is tight. It's about 3 feet, and this doesn't account for two dining chairs that would be on that side of the table. I suppose I could leave the space under the stairs open, but there's not much other storage space in the cabin.
For some reason a 16x30 cabin seems much more manageable in my head than a 20x34. But maybe there's not that much difference? Money is of course also an issue. I'd like to do this all debt-free and right now I've got about $15k ready to go and was hoping to do the shell with that and then pay as we go to do all the finish/fixtures/etc. Obviously there are a ton of variables here, but am I kidding myself to think that a 16x30 could be dried in for $15k? This would include a post and pier foundation.
I really appreciate any ideas/input/feedback folks care to provide on all this.
Thanks,
png
png I haven't looked at Rob's cabin but there is a couple of things I was wondering about. Are you going to extend the sidewalls up above the standard? I know with my 16' wide rooms that the kneewall is about 22" and it would be difficult to place a standard headboard bed that close to the wall either parallel or perpendicular as illustrate.
Another is the outswing door on the kitchen side. Normally a inswing is better and with the placement that you show either R or L would work.
It may be possible to expand one demension (either width or length) independently within your economics and gain a little more space for 1/2 of the extra cost. It might free up some valuable space and allow for some storage or clearance needed. I am sure you have probably work that aspect out.
BTW I will be making a trip to Johnson City in Mid March. How far are you away?
I was planning on 10' studs - is that what you've used in your 16' wide rooms? I don't know that we'll actually be using headboards for the beds, it is a cabin after all, but good to know that standard sizes probably wouldn't work as shown.
I was thinking an outswing door would be better since it will be a bit tight on the inside. I know this used to be a security concern, but the door I put on the shed is an outswing from Lowes and the hinge pins are flared or riveted at the bottom so they can't be driven out. What are other reasons to consider the inswing door?
I was wondering whether or not going to 20x30 would be that much of a cost difference over 16x30. I stretched my existing plan to 20x30 and that takes care of the issue of space between the dining area and pantry door. I'm not clear on what you mean when you say "gain a little more space for 1/2 of the extra cost", but it sounds like you're suggesting the extra cost of going to 20x30 might be worth it?
Home is about 5.5 hours from Johnson City and the mtn. property is two hours away.
Thanks
Quote from: pickngrin on March 03, 2009, 09:40:31 AM
I was planning on 10' studs - is that what you've used in your 16' wide rooms? I don't know that we'll actually be using headboards for the beds, it is a cabin after all, but good to know that standard sizes probably wouldn't work as shown.
I used 10' studs as well w/10/12 pitch.
I was thinking an outswing door would be better since it will be a bit tight on the inside. I know this used to be a security concern, but the door I put on the shed is an outswing from Lowes and the hinge pins are flared or riveted at the bottom so they can't be driven out. What are other reasons to consider the inswing door?
I think security is the main reason but it also prevents it by getting caught opening it in the wind and rain. Get inside a little quicker and and not be caught and ripped out of your hands in high wind.
I was wondering whether or not going to 20x30 would be that much of a cost difference over 16x30. I stretched my existing plan to 20x30 and that takes care of the issue of space between the dining area and pantry door. I'm not clear on what you mean when you say "gain a little more space for 1/2 of the extra cost", but it sounds like you're suggesting the extra cost of going to 20x30 might be worth it?
No I was referring to 1/2 the cost of going the biggest plan you originally had. Both demensions were 4 feet larger in both directions. What ever the expected cost of that additional 4 feet could be cut in half by just adding it to one demension. No I didn't mean your total would be cut in half. Nice try though ;D. I guess youi can run the #'s to determine what the extra expense would be. 14' rafter inside of 12' , so on. so on.
Home is about 5.5 hours from Johnson City and the mtn. property is two hours away.
Some how I got it in my head that you were closer or that the cabin was closer. Too many projects to keep up with in this board.
Thanks
I love the design. It is very similar to what I plan on building except mine will be 36 feet long. I wanted a little bigger living room. Here is a link to my plans:
http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=6145.0
A couple of questions for you. Are you going to use 2X4 or 2X6 studs for the walls? Also what size of boards are you going to go with for the floor joists?
Redover - good point on the wind being an issue with an outswing door. I noticed that in working on the shed the wind would catch the door and we had nothing to keep it propped open. I'll have to think on that one a bit more.
What!?! You mean I can't cut costs by building a bigger cabin? Aw, c'mon. I see what you mean now. If we were planning to take out a mortgage on the place then the added cost for an additional 4feet in width would probably result in only a minor increase to a monthly payment, but with a pay as we go model any added cost is felt immediately. I guess I'm still leaning toward the 16' wide, but no holes have been dug so there's still time to change my mind.
Suburbancowboy - glad you like the design. You're right it is similar to what you're planning. I'm planning to to 2x6 stud walls with the loft construction as shown in John's plans. I haven't decided on what I'll use for floor joists. Looking at the span tables in the Wagner Framing book it looks like 2x10s would work if I can get good material in my area. I'm also planning to look into I-joists. I assume they are a good bit lighter than 2x lumber, which is appealing since the work will be done by mostly my wife and me.
So why are you thinking of going 16' wide instead of 20'? I've read some of your thread and it looks like you'll have a pretty good crowd there. I'm sure you know this, but 16x36 yields fewer square feet than 20x30. I'm just curious to see how other's decision process compares to mine on this issue. Great view you have at your property. Sorry to hear about the fees and taxes - ouch! We've got similar budgets to work with so it will be interesting to compare notes as things move along.
If you haven't thought about getting the 3DHA software you might look into it. I got it from ebay for less than $10 including shipping. I found it really easy to figure out - and I am usually awful at this kind of thing. In addition to the floorplan view it lets you quickly do 3D renderings. Here's what I'm mulling over:
16x30:
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3377/3326586619_894e1b7d41_o.jpg)
or 20x30:
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3406/3327424092_5a3e5a5f9a_o.jpg)
All it takes is money right?
I came out with the same size for studs and floor joist as you did. 2X6 studs and 2X10 floor joists. What are you going to do for a foundation? I am going to go with a pier foundation, but I keep going back and forth between cemement piers and 6X6 pressure treaded posts. Cement is twice the cost and time and labor as the other but I feel that it will last much longer. I just don't want to ever have to replace them in my life time.
As far as my thinking on sizing I spent four months playing with various plans and sizes. I then went to the hardware store to price out lumber. I look at all the plans on this site. I became a member of the planhelp.com sister site and downloaded all the 3dha plans and looked at them. It all came down to one thing how can I get the most for the least amount of money. I worked the numbers and the 20X30 was 30 to 40 percent more in cost than the 16X36. The main factor came down to this. Have you been to a lowes or home depot and seen any 20 foot long lumber? So this means that you have to special order the lumber or overlap in the middle with extra beam running down the middle. So that is why I decided to longer instead of wider. Every thing will be on a smaller scale but it has everything that we need in it.
By the way I do have 3dha which I ran on my old laptop for a while but my new laptop has 64 bit vista on it and this program won't run on it. I have other cad software that I am using but haven't finished the plans on it yet. I will post them when I complete them.
Seeing that your design is so similar to mine I will ask you this question. I have been thinking of moving the fireplace against the wall and running the chimney out the side to save on chimney pipe and then putting a fireman pole where you currently have the fireplace for the kids to come down. What do you think of that idea?
Quote from: suburbancowboy on March 04, 2009, 12:26:58 PM
I have been thinking of moving the fireplace against the wall and running the chimney out the side to save on chimney pipe...
I'm not sure if you would save much on pipe that way?
If you do the conventional straight up thing, you use cheaper black pipe up to the ceiling and then transistion to the more expensive insulated pipe. If you go out the wall and then up outside you have a very long run of insulated pipe. Plus with virtually all the pipe outside in the cold it is slightly more likely to have occasional draft problems when starting up or under low fire conditions. That's not to say it won't work; there are cabins here with wall exits. Just something to think about. Remember the top of the chimney must be high enough above adjacent roof surfaces.
The rule for chimneys is that the chimney should extend at least 3' above the highest point where it passes through a roof, and at least 2' higher than any portion of a building within 10'.
SubCow - I'm planning on a pier foundation and planning to do poured concrete piers with some type of bracket cast in the top of the piers to carry the beams. I'm with you - I don't ever want to have to mess with the piers again once they're in the ground. I have no doubt that PT 6x6's would work, and I don't fault anyone for using them, it's just not the way I want to go.
Interesting cost comparison between the 20x30 and the 16x36. I really haven't started to price things yet so it's very helpful to hear from someone who has. Right - no 20' lumber at the big box stores - at least not that I've seen. But I'm hoping to go through a local lumber yard or saw mill to get most of the lumber. I'm at least going to investigate that option. Delivery will be a big issue for me as well. If someone can deliver what I need, where I need it, when I need it then that will be worth a slightly higher overall price.
I'm coming to the same conclusion on the 16x30 that I'm planning: it's got everything that I think we want/need it's just got a few tight spots. If we went with the 20x30 we wouldn't be adding any extra rooms, just widening a bit, and at this point I don't think that's worth the extra cost.
I think your kids would love the fireman's pole idea, but I think Mtn. Don is right in that you probably won't save any money on chimney pipe since the configuration you describe will have to have a longer run of insulated pipe. We have a Jotul woodstove in our home and use it quite a bit. The chimney is a straight run through the tallest part of the house. It drafts incredibly well and absolutely never smokes. After several years in our home using the stove is still a joy for me and I get a lot of satisfaction from heating with wood. I want this to carry over to the woodstove in our eventual cabin and feel that anything other than a straight run of pipe through the tallest part of the house would increase the possibility of poor drafting and lots of smoke inside. This would take away the joy of heating with wood for me so I don't want to risk that. I know there are probably thousands of cabins and houses with woodstoves that have a wall exit chimney, and I'm sure they work well for some, it's just not a configuration that I think would work for me.
Just another tid-bit about the flue placement. With one toward the outside wall the flue pipe above the roof has to be so high to clear the ridge it will make it almost impossible to clean. Not to mention some sort of bracing especially if you have a 10/12 or 12/12 roof. And yes they need to be cleaned an aspect of a lot of new 1st time wood burning people tend to overlook this annual maintenance.
I couldn't locate this before...
(http://www.fplc.ca/Information/SafetyTips/WoodSafety/Reed/07_guide_files/chimheight.gif)
PNG this is why I tried to stress the importance of a pitch diverter or something similar. As you can see the "slide and stop" of the snow. Unless there is a good bit of pitch on the lower roof the potential of ice-dam and thaw will allow the water to actually back up and then run down between. I guess it depends on how much of the lower roof you can slide up under the main roof without something there.
(https://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd161/redoverfarm/scenes/country%20plans/100_2543-2.jpg)
It feels like it's been a really long time since I've posted an update, but only a couple months have gone by. My wife, son, and I spent last weekend at the property and have what we used to call the "shed" almost finished. The building has now been christened, "The Cabinette".
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3653/3591455129_13fcc7c975_b.jpg)
I wasn't real keen on paying $.97/apiece for railing balusters and we had a lot of grapevine hanging around so I put it to good use. We camped out in the building last weekend and had a serious thunderstorm come through early Sunday morning. It poured rain but the building and its occupants remained dry.
I ended up using a piece of 12" wide rolled galvanized flashing as a makeshift pitch diverter between the main roof and the porch roof. It was a bit of a challenge to slide the flashing up under the main roof, but it worked out pretty well I think . . . time will tell.
We spent a couple weekends up at the place since I last posted, including some chilly nights. It was 33 inside the Cabinette one morning. Kinda hard to get much sleep when it's that cold. So I've been thinking about heating options and would appreciate others' opinions/thoughts on the subject. Here are some options I'm considering:
1. We have an old parlor woodstove that has been in my family for probably 70-80 years. Benefits here are it's free and we'd have an ample supply of wood at the property. Disadvantage - it's really big and would take up a lot of usable space; it's probably overkill for an 8x12 building; and it's old, not airtight, and not EPA certified.
2. I really like the marine woodstoves here: http://www.marinestove.com/sardineinfo.htm (http://www.marinestove.com/sardineinfo.htm). I think they'd put out plenty of heat for our space. Downside is even the smallest model, the sardine is $699, not including chimney pipe. Seems kinda steep for this type of building.
3. I've read about these Mr. Buddy Heaters, and the reviews on both Amazon and Cabelas are generally very positive, but I just can't quite get comfortable with the idea of a propane burning device inside an enclosed space - especially with the wife and young son sleeping there.
4. Electric heating options? We ran an electric resistance heater on the cold nights and they only heat up the area about 12" in front of the heater. Also, we had it plugged into an extension cord (temporary power pole is about 50 ft from building) and the extension cord got really hot - kinda scary hot.
Thoughts/suggestions? I should also mention that the building is not insulated at all. As I weigh heating options I'm also thinking about insulating and how to go about it. Insulating the floor is the biggest question mark - not much space to crawl around under there.
Finally . . . here's a cool shot my wife took of a trout lilly poking through some still chilly ground in April.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3383/3421743146_a13b756c6b_b.jpg)
Wow that looks great. Good place to spend a weekend I bet. :)
could you get away with a portable kerosene heater? that'd be the least expensive way to go i'd think for the little time you will use the shed/cabinette.
in boy scouts we used to have a portable coleman heater that cost about $70 which heated up the tent nicely when we did deep winter camping.... that may work also.... as long as there is some ventilation. just something to take the chill off. camping in 20 below weather is no fun without a tent heater.
Don't forget a kerosene heater requires a window be left cracked ;). On the hot cord, it means you are pulling too much current through too short a cord, yes that is a common cause of fires. Use a larger guage cord, I usually don't buy anything smaller than 12 guage which can handle ~20 amps or up to about 2400 watts. One more downer as long as I'm being that way, grapevines are a real common source of powderpost beetles. Bringing in a grapevine wreath is a good way to give the little devils a new home, don't ask me how I know this ::).
I went by L&E sawmill over towards West Jefferson/Crumpler yesterday to pick up some nice hemlock. Nice folks, good prices. I am small taters to him, they deal in tractor trailer loads so I stayed out of the way, did my own loading and sorting and left his piles in better shape than I found them. He had a yard full of nice heavy timber and lumber, can saw up to 24'. As we were tieing up and chatting he realized he made a mistake on the price, didn't see a layer on the trailer, and was perfectly willing to eat it, which we wouldn't allow. I do like a businessman with ethics. They are on Huckleberry Ridge Rd off Shatley Springs off 221. Just another resource. He had a red oak log in there that came up to my shoulders laying down! Hope you got to see the rhodos and azeleas in bloom too, they did good this year :)
I'm not crazy about the kerosene heater option. I don't think my wife would go for it - she has a very sensitive, or maybe I should say "finely tuned" nose. If there was any kerosene smell she wouldn't be able to sleep. Also I don't think I'd enjoy having to keep refilling it with kerosene.
Don P. - too much current through too short a cord, or too long a cord? I've always thought the longer your cord run the heavier gauge it needed to be. I think I'm leaning toward getting a heavier gauge cord and doing some insulating - at least on the floor. I'm wondering if I could lay some rigid foam sheets down on the subfloor and put another layer of plywood on top of that. Would the rigid foam just get crushed with any weight on it? I'll keep an eye out for powderpost beetles.
That is great to know about the L&E sawmill - sounds like exactly the kind of place I am hoping to work with once the main cabin gets underway - just checked Google and L&E is about 9 miles from our place. I really appreciate that tip.
Coffee must not have kicked in... too much current thru too small a cord. Yup the further you go the thicker the guage needs to be. A classic cause of fires is those lightweight lamp cords in an old house with too few outlets. Folks hide them under a rug and that just makes them hotter until something ignites. A breaker correctly sized for the cord on the feed end of things will cause it to trip if you pull too much. Those little outlet strips with a 15 amp built in breaker can provide some protection in a pinch. I got my rear end chewed on one job, I had hooked my jobsite box into the main and I thought the inspector was going to have a heart attack. It was quite unsafe, I had 10 times more available current than the wire could handle, it never would have tripped if I had needed it to.
This is a line drop calc I put together that might help some;
http://windyhilllogworks.com/Calcs/linedropcalc.htm
edit;
Yes you can put down blueboard or most foam sheets and cover them with ply without crushing them. I've done that upstairs to reduce sound going through an exposed beam floor system. I screwed it on about a 12" grid to make sure it stayed flat and then we carpeted over it for more sound deadening. The only possible downside I can see is I had our camper down at my little sawmill and had sawn through some really badly carpenter ant infested logs (nothing is madder'n half an ant). The little varmints got into the foam in the camper and nested there. I had a devil of a time getting rid of them. That was pretty unusual but another critter to keep your eyes open for.
So pickn did you ever have your plans inspected by and engineer or do you have plans on when you will start with the main cabin. My plans that are similar to your are at the engineer now finishing the final draft. Fire marshall has inspected land and looked over my paper work and I should get my certificate this week. Engineer next week. Letter from the home owner association the following week, building inspector the next week. Boy will I ever get started.
Suburban - no not yet. We're still hemming and hawing over what exactly do we want vs. what can we afford vs. what can we realistically build and manage ourselves. Though I have contacted the local building department and found out exactly what I need to submit in order to get a permit. I know I'll have to have my well and septic permits in hand and that's a whole process unto itself. I'm also still trying to figure out the best way to get modified plans drawn up that will satisfy the building department. I have a friend who has an architecture degree who I'm sure would do the drawings for me, but I sort of feel bad about asking him for help again. He did the plans for our current home and everyone seems to go to him for this kind of help. I know the plans development and review stage always takes longer than one thinks so I need to get on it. Just too many other distractions.
What did you actually submit to the engineer? I assume you met with them in person to go over your drawings and talk about what you wanted? Mind if I ask what they're charging for this service?
How far are you from your build site? Once you get the go ahead from everyone who needs to sign off will you be able to work on the place full time, or will you be more like me - a weekend and vacation builder? We're 3.5 hours from the property so I'm trying to figure out how to use my time once we're ready to start building. I'm thinking I can get to the deck stage with 3-4 long weekends, but once we're ready to actually start framing I would like to take at two weeks off work and go at the building pretty hard in the hopes I can get close to a dried-in state. Though as I write this that seems overly optimistic.
I took the plans that I had drawn up to the engineer to get that very expensive stamp on them. They told me that it would be about $500 on the phone when I got there and they looked at the plans I could see that they where laughing under there breath at me. So we talked for awhile and they said that they could redo them in a manner that the building inspector and them would accecpt. So after some fanagling we decided upon $1400 for the rework of the plans and the stamp. I have got the first draft from them and it is alot beefier than what I was planning on but the snow load was alot more than I was planning on. Seeing that our design is so similiar maybe we should split the cost? :)
Anyway I did get the stamped paper from the firemarshall yesterday, so at least that is done. That was alot of work to clean up, cut up and burn the extra wood on the property, and I have one more days worth of clean up left to do, but it seem to be worth it if there is a fire up there.
I live about 1 1/2 hours from the property and have been up there at least once a week since spring. My excavator has been slow but I want to keep checking his progress. I talked to him last night and week agreed that he is done for now so now the $5000 check to him for the road, pad and septic tank.
I will be working on the cabin every weekend once the building inspector gives me the final go ahead. I figure I need to go from floor joist to roof in two weeks. I will probably take some extra days off those weeks. I think that my father inlaw will be able to help with the roof. He is 60 but can out work me like you can't believe.