A friend asked me what the best round is for a .22 magnum - Full metal jacket or hollow point. I told him I would ask.
After that we could go onto other sizes and reasons or whatever is related. Thanks in advance.
Quote from: glenn kangiser on October 14, 2008, 09:50:29 AM
A friend asked me what the best round is...
Depends... rofl ... on the purpose/need.
If I had to choose one it would be the full metal jacket. Only because a 22 mag. is a small bullet is needs to get penetration if the round is going to be used for hunting or self defence. CCI mini mags are the best round that I have found in that caliber.
not my area of expertise at all here.
If the target is within 10 yards I would want hollow point due to over-penetration concerns and the mushroom effect.
If the target is over 50 yards I would want jacketed for the extra penetration.
I think using reliable and clean ammo is the key for 22's, I like the cci minimags too. Also the stingers. remingtons golden bullets too. the cheap stuff is not worth the trouble in jams and filth.
All of that said, I wouldn't want to rely on a 22 for hunting or self defense. Use the right tool for the job.
How about a JHP, Jacketed Hollow Point?? Good for small animal varmints, good all round I'd say. A 22, even WRM is not a self defense weapon. But if it's the only gun one has... :-\
hi glen,
i ike hollow for small/medium critters and metal for everything else. .22 ammo is cheap, buy alot of both. ;D
dan
I like the FMJ CCI ammunition for the magnum. Over penetration is not a problem with the 22 mag and it does not expand reliably. The FMJ's give it that little extra oomph it needs to get in where it counts.
While it would not be my first pick in a defense gun, it would be far from my last. Many years ago the Highly Respected Author and gunsmith, George C. Nonte, experimented with the 22 Magnum. He decided that it was far more effective than the plain lead bullet .38 spl that was standard issue with police at the time. I have to agree. Many State Police officers in Va and elsewhere were issued the double action High Standard Derringers in 22 mag, as either backup guns or for undercover work.
The Inuit's have used them for many years to take everything from seals to bear. They are just cheaper to shoot than the 30/30's that was their big gun.
Thanks for the info, everybody. I think this will help my friend out and good info for me too. I know it takes care of small game here and things that need to be put out of their misery cheaply.
I plan on having lots of ammo for my .22's and quite a bit for my big guns. I hope to check out what I have in reloading equipment that I never used for the 30.06 also. Bought it years ago and did nothing with it.
Everyone should have reloading equipment and know how Glenn. You don't save as much as you used to, but you can customize loads for your tastes.
I'm a great believer in 22lr's. Back when I was a kid, everyone that had been through the Depression, had a .22 in the corner and it served 80% of their gun needs.
The basic arms cabinet then had:
A single shot .22lr
A single shot 12 ga
A .32 Cal Pistol (Usually a top break)
In our family we also had a .50 muzzloader that my Great, Great Grandfather brought back from the war after we whipped the Yankees. ;D
We used that for a hog rifle.
Damn Yankees. :)
I learned to say that when I was stuck in a truckstop in Paris, Texas for a couple weeks with no loads out.
It helped me to get along with the natives. [crz]
I have a .380 Baretta Automatic for a pistol recommended buy a cop friend. Seems short on stopping power though.
Quote from: glenn kangiser on October 14, 2008, 07:59:21 PM
Seems short on stopping power though.
Bigger bullets make bigger holes. ;D We love our .45's :)
Quote from: MountainDon on October 14, 2008, 08:21:30 PM
Quote from: glenn kangiser on October 14, 2008, 07:59:21 PM
Seems short on stopping power though.
Bigger bullets make bigger holes. ;D We love our .45's :)
That we do Don....But no one wants to get shot with anything, including a .380. Remember, the 9mm and .380 (It's a 9mm short Glenn) served the Nazis very well.
Yes, anything that spits a bullet is better than none at all.
The Nazis made some sweet little guns in 380/9mm. I still love that Walther PPK.
I thought they were the same - are they interchangeable on the ammo? I find plenty for it - just wondering.
If my brain is correctly retrieving archived material, you can shoot 380's from a 9mm parabellum (9x19) but not the other way around. ??? d* The 9x19 is longer and will/may not chamber correcly.
A 380 is less powerful (smaller powder charge) than the 9x19
Quote from: MountainDon on October 14, 2008, 11:57:37 PM
If my brain is correctly retrieving archived material, you can shoot 380's from a 9mm parabellum (9x19) but not the other way around. ??? d* The 9x19 is longer and will/may not chamber correcly.
A 380 is less powerful (smaller powder charge) than the 9x19
Both headspace on the case mouth so they can't be used interchangeably...You can use the same bullet to reload both though.
Thanks for that, Peter.
If you reload your own is there room for more powder in the .380?
Not really.
If you want to reload your own pistol ammo the .45 is the way to go IMO. Its a low pressure round so cases last a LONG time. It's common so brass is easy to get. The large slow bullet is easily cast by the DIYer. And best of all it's a more effective round than the 9mm and much more so than .380.
The only drawback is the semi auto sends brass hither & yon. A revolver makes brass retrieval easier. A .44 mag loaded to roughly . 44 special ballistics is a good weapon for someone who wants to cast - load their own.
In that regard a .44 mag rifle works well if you don't have big bears to deal with. Jacketed bullets can be loaded hot enough for deer or black bear to 100 yards or so. Much lighter loads with cast bullets will work for smaller game. 50 or 100 lbs of scrap lead would allow you to cast a bunch of bullets. In light loads you can get 700+ rounds from a pound of powder so it's economical. The cases are very strong so with anything but very hot loads they last almost forever. Being straight sided they don't stretch so trimming isn't necessary, nor is lubing. A .357 rifle would have may of the same virtues but be a little light for deer and bear.
But as Peter said. Stock up on primers!!!
As for rifles I myself like the 30-06.I can hit what I'm shooting at 500 yards (with the right loads of course) The ammo is cheap and easy to get. I can go to any town and someone will have a box of it for sell. I also have a few rifles in this caliber that are the same gun .Just in case the $hit hits the fan and I need to use two to make one work. As for a shotgun the same applies everything is 12 ga.
I also think that my 10ga cap and ball is a good thing to keep around. It weighs 14 pounds and is 5-1/2 feet long. But as a kid growing up, it and a 22 is all my old man would let me take out and target shoot.
The powder is cheap the caps are cheap and I have shot everything under the sun out of it. Things like nuts, bolts,washers,nails,screws,marbles,rocks,one of my sisters barbies heh(I lost the privilege of shooting for a year after that one)
What I'm getting at is we can all make black powder and if you have a flintlock you should never be without a gun.
I'm with Don on the 45. I also like what John C. says about reloading the ammo for the 45. Reloading sounds like a good winter time project.
The only thing I DON"T like about the .45 ACP for the novice, is that it headspaces on the case mouth. (Same fot 9mm, 380, etc) so you can't crimp the bullet. Most people find a lot of missile silo's before they get the taper right.
A 45 auto rim conversion or 38 super would solve it but present brass availability issues and just confuse the newby.
This is one reason Ilike revolvers. I agree the 44 mag is king for most reloaders.
Do primers have a shelf life? What's the best place/method to store them?
What about powder in a factory sealed can? ...an opened can?
That's a good question ???
All I can tell you is from my experience,I still us black powder that is 30 years old. And some 30-06 rounds that are closer to 40 and have had no problems yet.
I think a lot of it would have to do with humidity.I did have some 12 ga. rounds go bad after they were left in the cold shop one winter.
Keep your powder dry,Whitlock
Quote from: Whitlock on October 16, 2008, 12:23:29 AM
...Keep your powder dry...
Not a problem here in the desert. But up in the mountains they are periods of 90%+ humidity. Followed by periods of extremely low humidity.
We'll see what gems of knowledge peter nap checks in with. :)
I have a feeling that keeping primers, powder or loaded ammo in a dry moderate temperature is likely good. The humidity is probably the more important factor.
{pwder will lose some potency after several years. That said, I have a Can of IMR3031 that I bought around 1972 and last year I loaded some 375 H&H with it and I didn't notice any problems.
I seal my stash of primers in mylar bags that I seal with my seal a meal. A tip for getting the bags cheap is to get them from someone that refills laser printer cartridges. They put the refilled cartridges in mylar and buy them by the thousand bag lot. I think I paid about a nickle each for the last ones I got.
Double ditto for seal a meal on primers.
Really two things make primers / powder go bad fast... first is moisture, second is temperature swings.
I had some 4895 in an 8# jug that I used all the way to about 3/4" from the bottom. The jug looks like a chlorox bottle. Anyway, it formed a cake on the bottom of the bottle and I scrapped it. I also have some green dot and and assorted other powder that are in bottles that appear to be 30+ years old that have never been opened and still "sound" fresh. For the old powders, once I open them up I use them up pretty quick. I also work up loads on that old stuff and use my chrony to test that nothing weird happened.
I also have some newer Varget, WST, Promo, 4895 and whatever that are in opened kegs that I was trying to figure out a good way to seal up. I was thinking about the seal-a-meal method, but that red hot sealing wire next to a lb or more of powder makes me nervous. Also, it is a bit dangerous to store powder outside of it's original container, as if the label falls off you enter into a scary area.
-f-
http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=459655
$13.56 for 20 rounds - reloadable 30.06 What do you guys think of this ammo - I bought two boxes to try it out...
and where is a good place to get reloading supplies?
Quote from: glenn kangiser on October 19, 2008, 05:09:04 PM
http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=459655
$13.56 for 20 rounds - reloadable 30.06 What do you guys think of this ammo - I bought two boxes to try it out...
and where is a good place to get reloading supplies?
It's Wolf ammo. I've shot tens of thousands rounds of it. It is OK and cheap but dirty as a coal.
Buy Walmart Ammo. You can get premium ammo for just a little more than Sportsmans Guide.
Hi Glenn,
If you don't mind supporting a pseudo government sort of setup, the Civilian Marksmanship Program (CMP) has excellent deals on cheap ammo. But there are a few qualifying things... you have to have either fired in a local CMP match, or I think be military, or law enforcement background... don't know for sure. Check with www.odcmp.com for details.
They are selling some Greek M2 Ball ammo that is the best I've seen. Better than 1.5MOA accuracy at 100 yards. Much better than the Danish or even the US surplus. It's pretty cheap too...about $0.31 a round.
For supplies on primers and powder, shop a local gun show and avoid the hazmat shipping. Projectiles from Wideners.com or Midway.com.
Find a powder that is flexible (Red dot or Promo for shotguns and pistols) and 4350 or 4895 for rifles and buy a bunch. Don't get anal about perfect loads. It really is not worth it.
Good luck!
Thanks, Peter and Frank.
I am going to be working my way slowly into this along with my other 50 things I want to do some day. d*
Quote from: peternap on October 19, 2008, 05:28:11 PM
Buy Walmart Ammo. You can get premium ammo for just a little more than Sportsmans Guide.
Selection varies by store/season around here, but thinking ahead and keeping a stock on hand it works out well.
One thing for me is that the nearest WalMart is 45 miles away. I avoid the cities as much as possible. They are not ready for me... [crz]
This weekend when I was at Glenn's we were talking about the 22 magnum. and the 22LR.
I thought you could get the 22LR in CCI mini mag that had comparable velocity to the 22mag.
I think the 22LR will get 1700fps and the 22 mag. is around 1900fps
But I can't find my chart. Can some one help me out on this?
Thanks,W
Quote from: Whitlock on October 27, 2008, 12:52:43 PM
This weekend when I was at Glenn's we were talking about the 22 magnum. and the 22LR.
I thought you could get the 22LR in CCI mini mag that had comparable velocity to the 22mag.
I think the 22LR will get 1700fps and the 22 mag. is around 1900fps
But I can't find my chart. Can some one help me out on this?
Thanks,W
Here you go: http://www.cci-ammunition.com/ballistics/rimfire.aspx
Remember that in terms of energy, velocity is squared.
So the 22 mag round with 1875 muzzle fps has 2.3X more energy than the Mini Mag round at 1235fps (same size projectile)
BTW... try the CB Long for in-yard varmints. Very little noise and very accurate.
Thanks Shooter.
Why didn't I think of that ???
I have used the CB longs good for pinpoint accuracy [cool]
If you really want quiet, try some sub velocity ammo. Out of a bolt action, it's as quiet as a pellet rifle.
I need a little advise, First let me say I have never take a gun to a gun smith.
I have a Ruger P-345 in 45 auto. Bought it new from a gun store.
When I first stated shooting it, It had piss poor accuracy I took this as me not being used to the gun.
But now after over two hundred rounds and different types of ammo.I know that something is not right.
I think the accuracy is getting worse >:( It is so bad that you can't hit a five gallon bucket at 20 feet with Evey shot.
Glenn and I shot it yesterday and we recovered one of the rounds the riflings on one side of the bullet are barely visible
and there is a ding on the edge of the bullet that shouldn't be there.
Any suggestions,W
Have you tried different lots of ammo? No engraving on one side of the bullet might mean the problem is with the projectiles rather than the pistol. One common reason for consistently poor accuracy is problems with the crown the barrel. It may also pay to load the clip, and hand-cycle the rounds through the chamber (outdoors, with the muzzle pointed in a safe direction, of course!) so they land on a blanket or something similar to protect them when you eject them. Then inspect them to see if they were damaged when they fed into the chamber. Look to see that the bullets are still concentric in the case, dinged anywhere, etc. Compare to a new cartridge out of the box for differences.
If nothing is found, you can likely send the gun back to Ruger for repairs, I would think at their expense if it won't hit a 5 gallon bucket every time at close range.
Hope this helps!
You didn't say how large your groups are and at what range.
The P45 will never be a tack driver. While Ruger makes some fine guns, the P series are not in that category.
Try slugging your barrel and measure the slug. see if it's within specs. Try a different magazine and try a different lot of ammo (I suggest hardball just to eliminate some other possibilities,
The ding in a recovered slug means nothing unless all of the recovered slugs have the same ding.
Getting engraving on one side indicates tipping. That's when the slug enters the barrel at an angle. While it could be a problem with the gun, it's more than likely the ammo.
Is the gun jamming?
Tryed running the bullet though like you said Harry they are fine.
Peter-
It is not the ammo. Tried four different brands and grains.
Groups are at about 10in. at 20 feet with 3 out of 8 going wild like two feet off the paper. This is with a rest and taking my time. I have other pistols that I can put every round in a two inch group at this range.
Tried a different magazine.
Please explain slugging to me.
The p345 has a barrel that tips to receive the cartridge you would think it was receiveing it right.
I will try to get another bullet today to see if it has the same ding.
The gun dosn't jam ever.
Quote from: harry51 on November 11, 2008, 01:06:38 PM
Have you tried different lots of ammo? No engraving on one side of the bullet might mean the problem is with the projectiles rather than the pistol. One common reason for consistently poor accuracy is problems with the crown the barrel. It may also pay to load the clip, and hand-cycle the rounds through the chamber (outdoors, with the muzzle pointed in a safe direction, of course!) so they land on a blanket or something similar to protect them when you eject them. Then inspect them to see if they were damaged when they fed into the chamber. Look to see that the bullets are still concentric in the case, dinged anywhere, etc. Compare to a new cartridge out of the box for differences.
If nothing is found, you can likely send the gun back to Ruger for repairs, I would think at their expense if it won't hit a 5 gallon bucket every time at close range.
Hope this helps!
Ditto!
I just got a letter in the mail from Dick Cheney. He will have some free time come this February and has offer to teach me how to shoot my rifle!
I think I will decline.
Considering his position, Stink, I think you should tactfully decline and...... save face. :-[ d*
Slugging is taking an oversize chunk of lead and driving it through the barrel. You want it large enough to engrave the rifling on it. I doubt it's an oversize bore but it does eliminate one possible problem.
What you just told me makes me think the bullets are tipping.
The P345's are one of those guns that has no middle ground. They are either wonderful or suck. Yours is a sucker.
Without looking at the gun it's hard but I'll venture a guess. The P45's had numerous feed problems on the suckers. A lot of it had to do with the spring tension in the magazine. Full won't feed, half will.
This caused some cartridges to enter the chamber at an acute angle. Some also had burrs on the chamber mouth causing the same thing.
The mark on the bullet is a clue. If they are all like or even most like this...the round could be entering the chamber at a high enough angle to tip it. you didn't mention the case condition.
This is a rare condition in a 45. 22's do it all the time.
Dig out some more bullets and if you can, take a macro picture of it. Also save a handfull of cases.
Quote from: peternap on November 11, 2008, 02:35:45 PM
Dig out some more bullets and if you can, take a macro picture of it. Also save a handful of cases.
Thanks will do tomorrow,W
Hi Whitlock,
What do you use that .45 for? If just for self defense, don't sweat it. If you can hit a 12"X18" pc of paper at 7 yards, you are good to go. No offense meant, but that is a pretty cheap gun and probably doesn't warrant a lot of work on it.
I would not attempt to slug any of my guns, as I would fear gouging the rifling. Here is a pretty good explanation of how to do it though...
http://yarchive.net/gun/barrel/barrel_slugging.html
If you have not done this already, do the following... disassemble the gun, and remove the barrel. It is quite possible that someone fired hot lead loads through the thing and the rifling is badly fouled. You won't be able to clean it sufficiently with powder solvent like Hoppe's.
Clean it like this: http://www.custompistols.com/bengtson/articles/cleaning_the_handgun.htm
Here's a good test for it once it is clean. Take it somewhere that you can use a bench, and rest your hands on sandbags. Lock the bolt open, load one round by hand into the chamber (not from the magazine, but drop it directly into the chamber). Close the bolt and carefully fire that shot. Then reload one at a time in a similar fashion to shoot a test group.
Apologies if you know the rest of this, but I want to cover all the bases:
1) 95% of the work of an accurate shot is done with your trigger finger. Slow, slow squeeze. Be surprised when it fires. Use the tip (pad) of your trigger finger, not the crook of the finger.
2) Always focus on the front sight. The target will be blurry. Sounds weird, but this is the way to do it. BTW.. with a rifle, the rear sight is commonly blurry too.
3) Don't be in a hurry to be done with the shot. "Follow through". Don't let off the trigger, don't raise your head, do take your time with the recoil before you are done with that shot.
4) Think about what your sight picture looked like when the pistol went off. "call your shot" and learn to know where it went.
5) Never tilt your head sideways. It throws your balance way off.
If the thing still does not shoot, take it to a gun smith and ask him to look at it. It sounds as though it could be a bad barrel, but could also be a bad bushing. I'm confused by the lack of rifling on the bullet.
Good luck. I hate guns that won't shoot.
The rifling thing is odd the riflings are good and deep on one side of the bullet and almost nonexistent on the other side ???
I will shot it more today like you said and let you all know how it went.
The last part of your post sounded like my dad when I was a kid learning how to shot brought back some good memories. I always got in trouble for tilting my head.
I can not hit a 12x18 paper at 7 yards with every shot.
I was looking at a Kimber 45auto but it was $1200.00
I thought to myself for $500.00 this Ruger should be fine and I had just read a article about it were they were getting 3 inch groups at 50 feet.
I don't think Ruger would sell a gun that was this bad often. If they do they will be out of business in no time.
Basically if it came down to it I would not want this gun in my hand if I was in a bind.
Thanks,W
The Kimber and the Springfield Armory are two of the best 45 semi automatics around. They are priced accordingly. The SA 1991A1 shoots better than I do, unless I have a rest. My son shoots tighter, more consistent groups than I. :( 35 years makes a difference.
My shotgun evens it out though. ;D
Like my shotguns too Don.
I always have a hard time deciding which one to take out for the day :-\
I keep kicking myself for buying this 45 >:( but maybe it will turn out all right [noidea'
Shooter-I'm getting a 5 inch group at 50 feet if I put them in one at a time.I did this for 20 rounds just to make sure. 8)
If I do the same with the clip loaded I still get 2 or 3 that fly wild ???
That's better than a decent group. Nice shooting!
Okay... do this. And be very, very careful about it.
Put a full magazine in the gun.
Chamber your first round, and shoot, check accuracy of hit. Remove the magazine. Extract the bullet from the chamber. Examine the bullet carefully for signs of deformation.
If it looks good, hand chamber that round. Re-insert magazine, fire round. Check accuracy of hit.
Continue doing this. If you see a round that is gouged, make note of it's position in the magazine.
Do this through several magazines. If the bullet gets knackered up from the same location in the magazine, you have a magazine issue.
If the bullet gets knackered up in different order from your magazine, you have a feed issue.
Any chance you can look at your brass? See if any of the brass looks different after firing. Look for bulges, or bases that are slightly tipped over.
Some other thoughts about shooting a .45acp...
Just curious.. after you load the magazine, do you tap the back of the magazine to make sure that all rounds are fully rear-ward?
Make sure that you don't limp wrist the thing. I had a Para-Ordinance that would stove pipe on me if I held it gentle.
A fairly cheap thing to try is to get a beefier slide spring. Since it sounds as though you are currently having no feed problems, I would use a heftier spring. This might have the benefit of keeping the barrel bushing tighter too.
Pretty weird! But you are making progress in the debug.
Once you get it figured out, practice, practice, practice.
I've seen a lot of lucky shots. Oddly, they occur most often to my buddies who practice the most!
-f-
Looks like NM took you through the next step. The brass is important so try to collect a few.
What I'm getting at is the one single problem that comes up with those guns, are feeding problems caused bt a combination of magazine feed lips and a too stiff spring.
I'm betting your chamber has been polished oversize to compensate and the cartridges are feeding, but hitting the chamber hard enough to actuality cant the bullet. Rare in a 45 but it does happen.
That is the only thing that would account for the uneven rifling. If that is the case, you'll have to either sleeve and rechamber the chamber or buy another barrel. Buying a barrel is the best option....but let's see what's happening first.
BTW, a deformed bullet would NOT account for the uneven rifling marks.
I have a feed issue [cool] never thought I would be happy about that ???
There was a small burr on the right edge of the ramp.It looks like it was left over from the machining.I could not see it until I did like you said.
Two of the bullets that I looked at after they had entered the barrel had a deep gouge cut into the lead.
I took the gun apart and buffed the ramp until the burr was gone.
I guess that the bullets that came in contact with the burr were flying wild :-\
Ran two clips though and no zingers [cool]
Is this possibly the cause or did i get lucky?
Thanks all for your help,W
Anyone reload shotshells?? Peter?
I hardly ever toss any hulls into the trash. I counted up my stash today. I've got a little over 200 - 2 3/4" mostly Federal, some Winchester, all used one time, plus 80 mostly Winchester 3". I wonder what's involved in reloading them, how does one seal the end, is it worth it? Probably is if handgun and long gun rounds are any indication.
My buddy talks about reloading shot shells but he's not on the forum.
Continuing to build our stock of shells before the ban. d*
Another question. Does anyone "waterproof" their ammo by applying a lacquer (or whatever) around the primer/case joint and the bullet/case joint? Would that be a good idea or be problematic?
Quote from: glenn kangiser on November 17, 2008, 09:33:33 PM
Continuing to build our stock of shells ...
I have never seen the shelves of some of our gun shops so bereft of ammunition. I was in Sportsmans Warehouse today. The only type of 45 caliber ammo they had were a couple boxes of .45 Schofield. Nary a LC, ACP or GAP to be seen. :o
Sassy said the Wal-mart was out of 30.06 except the expensive stuff. 550 .22 Federal $13.97 - was $12.97 last week.
I think I'll shoot for about 10k of them.
I reload shotshells too Don (go figure). I have a MEC reloader, and once it is up and running I can reload a box of shells in about 2 minutes easy.
The shot is crazy expensive though... $45 a sack, which is so far over the commodity price of lead it is obscene.
It can be a little tricky to get the loader set up, as depending on the hull and wad type you have to tweak the loader to get it to seat and crimp correctly. But once you are running you can really spit them out.
If you are not going to shoot competitively, you just can't save enough $$$ to make it worth the trouble. Back when lead was $20 a bag you could save some serious $$$ but not anymore.
Don if you don't mind I would like to add something here ;D
If I wanted to start reloading 30-06 and 45 acp.
What powder should I buy?
What equipment do I need?What is a good brand?
Can I make my own bullets Or do they have to be copper jacketed?
Sorry for so many questions at once,W
I load shotshells also Don and I agree with NMS all the way. Considering Walmart prices, it just doesn't pay...unless you make your own swan shot and that won't feed in most charge bars.
I also have a MEC and consider it tops for the average loader. I have an old Herters that is the MEC as far as I can tell. All parts interchange between the two. I also have two Lee loadalls. They work but that's about all I can say about them.
I have waterproofed cartridges in the past (If your talking about rifle or pistol) Asphalt sealant around the case mouth and lacquer around the primer.
Quote from: Whitlock on November 18, 2008, 12:44:42 AM
If I wanted to start reloading 30-06 and 45 acp.
What powder should I buy?
What equipment do I need?What is a good brand?
Can I make my own bullets Or do they have to be copper jacketed?
Sorry for so many questions at once,W
There are a lot of ways to start Whitlock, but I'd recommend you buy quality right out of the gate. That way you don't have to go back and do it over. I'd recommend an RCBS Rockchucker press. You can use Lee dies or RCBS. The Lee are considerably cheaper. The Rockchucker is more press than you need but leaves you the oppurtunity to swage etc.
The powder depends on the caliber and bullet. Get the latest Speer manual.
Yes you can make your own bullets, either cast or swaged with or without jackets.
I use 165 grain 30-06,185grain and 230grain 45 acp
I'm sure you guys have your favorites if you don't mind sharing.
Thanks,W
Quote from: peternap on November 18, 2008, 12:50:45 AM
... Considering Walmart prices, it just doesn't pay...
Yep. I cleaned out my closest local WM today; Winchester and Remington; 25 - rifled slugs, 30 - 00 Buck, 50 - #4. I was sorely tempted by a case of 250 birdshot, for $55. That made me wonder about the viability of reloading.
I'll keep saving the hulls; maybe make some Christmas lights. [crz]
What's on hand and more or less usual...
45 LC Buffalo Bore 255 gr, semi WC
Cor-Bon 200 gr self defense JHP
Black Hills cowboy 250 gr RNFP
30-30 Federal Power Shok 125 & 150 gr RNSP
45-70 Federal Power Shok 300 gr Speer SP
12 ga Federal Power Shok 2 3/4" magnum 00 & 3" magnum 00
Federal Power Shok 2 3/4" 1 oz or 1 1/4 oz rifled slug
Federal Power Shok 3" 1 1/4 oz rifled slug
Federal Premium Wing Shot 2 3/4" 1 3/8 max #4
I do concede that if you want to load some specialty stuff... like #4 buckshot or larger, it might be cheaper to load if you are going to need a bunch of it to sell or trade. Good thing about the store bought buckshot is that it has been assembled with buffer material too, and is probably hotter than I would want to load my own.
Whitlock, I agree with Peter... get a decent press. Watch Craigslist sporting as they pop up on there all the time, and they just don't wear out. Get a good scale or never approach maximum loads with volume type "Lee" dippers. At a bare minimum you need the dies, case lube, press, priming tool, caseholder, calipers, and something to measure the powder with. Be careful with overall length. It can be dangerous if you seat too deep, or dangerous if you don't seat deep enough.
If you are firing mil surplus ammo, make sure that it is Boxer primers. If Berdan (two tiny holes in primer pocket) throw it away.
Stuff you ought to also consider:
neck chamfering tool
If mil surplus brass you'll need to swage or ream the primer pocket
headspace gauge (only if you are going to be re-using the brass a lot)
For 30-06 I like 4350 as a powder.
-f-
Are all these guns on the chopping block ???
Look at sec.6
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h110-6257
scary, isn't it? >:( >:( >:(
I have not waded through that to research what Sec.6 is all about, but...
The bill is called "assault weapons ban"
Sec.6 appears to me to possibly be a list of permitted arms. Look at it; it includes things like bolt action single shot rifles and shotguns in calibers as small as .22 as well as rifles that are clearly classed as competition rifles. These are items I've never seen listed as assault weapons. I could be wrong; this could be one of those neffarious addendum things that ride along on the coattails.
I'm going to look further into this but I don't think this is the draconian "total firearms ban" bill that would be the greatest fear.
Section 6 is excluded from the bill:
" Paragraph (1) shall not apply to--
'(A) any of the firearms, or replicas or duplicates of the firearms, specified in appendix A to this section, as such firearms were manufactured on October 1, 1993;"
But any movement provided on this bill is movement in the wrong direction.
Get ready for four years of this.
-f-
Why even list guns that are not to be ban ???
That is hard to understand, but so are a lot of government things. The section 922, title 18 that the sec.6 list refers to is all about penalties for firearms use/misuse. You need a legal degree to understand what it is saying.
It would be interesting to learn just what and why that listing is meant for. It is so extensive that it seems to me if that was supposed to be a list of things to ban, it would be better to ban guns outright. Then something that was missed in compiling the list would be included.
My son's Romanian manufactured .22 caliber bolt action box magazine fed Romanian Army training rifle doesn't appear on the list, but other 22 caliber bolt actions do. It is very confusing, but not necessarily something to panic about, IMO. At present at least.
I disagree, Don. It is something to panic about.
Removal of the right to bear arms or even tampering with it, I don't care what type of gun it is. Removing any kind of guns from law abiding citizens leaves only criminals who won't give up their guns with guns. A law abiding citizen will not shoot another law abiding citizen. The people in England are victimized every day.
Obama victory prompts US gun rush
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7749474.stm
"But, while many Americans would strongly disagree, gun enthusiasts see this as a struggle not about the right to target-shooting or even hunting in the wild but a dispute in which something much more profound is at stake.
They believe the constitutional guarantee of the people's right to bear arms means that the balance of power between the government and the governed is different in America from anywhere else in the developed world.
Mr Trometer put it like this: "If you start tearing at our fundamental freedoms and you take this right away and then maybe someone else comes along and says, 'You really don't have the right to speak your mind'.
"All of a sudden this framework of rights as a citizen of this country ... there's nothing left." "
I panic easily over things like this.
Notice that this is not just a sales ban, this also makes it illegal to possess such things as an AR-15. It does say that the law does not affect those who have them when the law goes into effect.
note that high capacity magazines are also banned, but if you have them in your possession prior you are ok.
-f-
Quote from: glenn kangiser on November 26, 2008, 12:38:56 PM
I disagree, Don. It is something to panic about.
The part I say does not need to cause panic is the Sec.6 list. I don't like any bans at all.
I'm saying the presence of that list is hard to understand. It is an appendix to another piece of existing legislation, which is confusing to read. That's all. It seems if a total ban was desired it would be easier to simply state that. Making a list of things to ban, and that is an extensive list, makes it too easy to forget something.
I want to see what the heck that Sec.6 list is all about before I panic. It's easier on my BP that way.
Well, MtnDon, if they just outright banned guns there'd be immediate uprisings... this way they just slowly turn up the fire so that when people finally realize what's happening, it will be too late.
Look at all the hidden stuff in the bailout... they tried to make it seem like there would be oversite... look at the outrage when congress was 1st entertaining the idea of a $700 billion bailout - now it is up to $7.7 trillion - that is TRILLION!!! :o and people are hardly making a peep! The money is going to other countries. There's hidden in the bill that the IRS can use trickery (oh, not the IRS... d*) - they used to be able to do it, but it was supposedly a short term, now it was made permanent. The bailout bill ended up being over 400 pages - do you think all our congress critters read the bill? Or even understood all the legalese? I doubt it...
There were protests around the country last weekend against the Federal Reserve... did anyone see that on the news? Ron Paul spoke at a rally in Houston, Texas... you can see his speech on YouTube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qsJjTaekA8
So, when there are things in a bill like Sec 6 - you gotta wonder what they're up to...
Confusing the issues makes it easier to slip it in on us before we make a major scene against it.
They pay people to write things that way. I'm against any tampering with our rights.
We already have laws against unlawful killing and murder - we don't need any of our guns taken away to make murder illegal. >:(
HR 6257 is also an old bill, introduced June 12, 2008, and nothing has happened on it yet. It's in committee. It will expire MTL and have to be reintroduced in the next congress. There's lots of time for that unfortunately.
It bears watching, bears telling your rep what you think, but not panic at this point. IMO.
Note that a gun can be made by a criminal out of a piece of pipe. This confiscation will not stop a criminal. I could make a functional gun in about 5 minutes. Do they then confiscate my brain? [crz]
I believe in Australia some of the criminal elements don't have to go to the trouble of making guns... they purchase smuggled, imported ones.
that's why gun orgs. and owners are so dead set against giving ANY ground in the right to bear arms. all of these so called common sense proposals brought up by well intentioned, niave anti gun liberals are fought against w/tooth and nail because there is only one real agenda. TO CONFISCATE/BAN ALL GUN OWNERSHIP PERIOD!!!!!
making your own gunpowder has anyone tryed this ???
http://www.instructables.com/id/Gunpowder/
http://www.gunpowderworks.co.uk/pdf/TG5_Gunpowder_manufacture.pdf
Haven't tried it but maybe I need to.
I also had a question concerning ammo choice for all of you gun experts:
I don't know much about ammo. I do know that .22 is very small on the scale (possibly smallest caliber?) but is it really that important concerning self-defense? Or I should say, I know that their is a huge difference in power between .22 and larger rounds, but if someone were shot with a .22 would it not take them out? And even if it doesn't kill them in one shot, would they still be able to function and attack you?
What about shooting someone at 30-40 yards with a .22? It sounds like it wouldn't get good penetration...but does it have to?
I imagine a shooting scenario. A person with the .22 get's the first shot and hits their enemy. It is not in the head or the heart, but I figure that would take their mind off of you for long enough to get another one or two shots on them.
Okay, making this short. I'm just addressing the idea that people discriminate against ammo based on the whole one shot one kill mentality.
Depends. (you'll see that used a lot around here especially when it comes to building questions.)
Depends on where you get hit with that 22 caliber round. The funny thing with wounds is that sometimes it just doesn't hurt all that much right when it happens, and sometimes only for an instant. So unless the 22 hits something major it may simply anger the person shot.
In self defense the distance would most likely be less than 20 feet, maybe less than 10 feet. Even at that close range an attacker will have adrenalin rushing through his bloodstream, maybe assorted drugs as well. A small caliber bullet may have little effect. I would prefer something with a larger bullet (my personal preference is a 45 Colt revolver or a shotgun). Of course if the only gun available was a 22 that may be better than nothing at all.
I've never been shot so I can't say how that feels, but I've been knifed and at the moment it happened it was only briefly painful. Saying it made me angry is an understatement. That initial pain quickly dissipated; it wasn't until a while after the event that the pain set in to any noticeable degree.
.22 ammo is for dispatching small game. it does not work well for self defense. it is possible to kill someone w/22 ammo(mafia uses it for close head shots)but not likely. yes, you can break someones attention span by shooting them w/anything. most self defense ammos engineering is designed to penetrate and expend the energy in the body, not go straight through(exceptions for military weapons for the most part).
you will most likely not have to shoot someone at 30-40 yds. if you do it will be an unusual situation and you will use a higher powered rifle or even a shotgun(in that order). there are side arms that shoot that far accuratly but you have to be proficient for that to happen.
people discriminate against certain types of ammo depending on what the news stories tell them(shock value, ak-47/assault weapon, what type of ammo does that use?, we should ban that.) a high powered deer rifle is much more powerful than the ammunition in an ak-47 or alot of so called assault weapons. here's a good assault weapon...a hammer upside your head. should we ban all hammers because some idiot killed someone with a hammer?
everything don said is true. most gun fights on the street happen w/in a few feet in a panic situation and is over quickly for one reason or another. for carrying i like a revolver, double action. point and shoot, don't have to think, scares the sh-- out of bad guys and you usually don't even have to hit them, just start pulling the trigger. that's enough. you guys should not let me post when i get up at 3:30 am. c*
During the Philippine - American war in the late 1800's American soldiers found the .38 long colt service round severely lacking in stopping power. It took several, sometimes many hits to "discourage" a Moro aggressor.
After a long period of development looking for a better service sidearm the 45 auto and 1911 pistol were adopted. It's service record since that time has been outstanding. Today grunts get 9 mm, but to my knowledge SEALS & Delta force get 45 pistols....... kinda makes you go hmmmmm.
Military and police around the world have tried just about any other caliber you can think of, but in terms of stopping an aggressor ASAP the 45 auto and 357 mag have the best combination of power and controllability. More powerful rounds are difficult for most folks to shoot well and generally are chambered in larger heavier handguns than most want to carry. Lesser rounds often don't incapacitate a assailant very quickly.
Keep in mind that the military and police have other factors as well. To the military brass a wounded enemy is as good as a dead enemy. It takes several other soldiers out of combat to deal with the wounded comrade. The soldier on the ground has a different opinion.
Police have to consider possible bystanders and many other things not usually a factor in home defense.
A .22 is better than nothing, but the maxim Don't go into battle with a handgun whose caliber starts with a number less than 4 still has merit.
good post john c. and i absolutely concur.
First, Gunpowder. I have made it. Homemade blackpowder wise, there are two types. The first is dry mixed and in the old days it was called Serpentine powder. The components tend to settle in layers and it causes ignition problems.
The second is wet mixed. I used alcohol and mixed all three components into a slurry. Let it dry into a cake and use a screen to break it into proper sized grains. That works well but not as well as storebought powder.
I wouldn't think of making smokeless powder.
22's for self defense....
I never feel poorly armed with a 22. It certainly isn't my first choice (45 Long Colt is first and 44 Mag or spl second and 45 auto third unless in auto then it is first choice)
A 22 will kill someone as dead as anything. It is quieter and you can store tens of thousands of rounds easily and cheaply.
Shot placement is EVERYTHING!
I have never been shot with a 22 but I have been shot with a 45 auto and a 9mm. Both were bad shots the auto hit me in the hand and angled up my arm. Completely destroyed a knuckle and a lot of connective tissue. I have limited use of that hand.
The 9mm hit me square in my bicep and broke my arm.
I was NOT stopped by either and really had to look before I was sure I was hit. It was painful later but at the time all it did was pi$$ me off.
Shot placement is the difference.
If you choose a 22, practice multiple shots. More in the center area is better and actually replicates a shotgun blast.
There are two famous phrases that I live by.
The best gun for self defense, is the one you have with you........
and
Shoot them with the biggest damn gun you have!
One of my favorite phrases
When seconds count, the cops are just minutes away.
http://bluestarchronicles.com/greenberet.html
[rofl2] [rofl2] [rofl2] [rofl2] [rofl2]
An interesting aside about the Philippine occupation after the War of 1898 is that the U.S. contracted for a limited production run of Colt model 1878 double action revolvers chambered for .45 long colt. They were built with an enlarged trigger guard and a much longer trigger, so the small-handed Philippine constables could use two fingers to cycle the double action. These are known as the 1903 variant of the 1878 model Colt. This was the immediate response to the lack of knockdown power of the issue .38 revolvers that John mentioned.
Here's an interesting link. Note the paragraph that indicates even .223 rounds do not provide good stopping power.
http://www.sightm1911.com/Care/45acp.htm
-f-
I think a nice 12 guage buckshot round will stop someone. I wish adrenaline luck on that one :)
Mediocre stopping power has been the knock on the .223 since VietNam. The other side of the coin is that rifles chambered for it are much easier to shoot effectively than the previous generation of battle rifles chambered for .308 or 30'06.
There has been some work done recently on developing a 6.8mm round for the M16 platform that would develop significantly more energy than the 5.56mm, but still be relatively easy to shoot well. When or if such a round will be adopted remains to be seen, but it seems like a good compromise.
Quote from: NM_Shooter on December 05, 2008, 12:19:02 PM
Here's an interesting link. Note the paragraph that indicates even .223 rounds do not provide good stopping power
I guess that's why I've been a believer in the "bigger bullets make bigger holes" school of thought when selecting a firearm.
In a similar vein does anyone have any experience shooting 454 Casull's (or hi performance 45 Colt's in a rifle? I have a lead on a Puma Carbine chambered for the 454 (will shoot my favorite 45 Colt's as well). And along with that question how about any experience with the Puma brand? It looks nice. ??? Like this except it's a 16"
(http://www.legacysports.com/images/_products/Puma454CasullSS.jpg)
http://www.legacysports.com/products/puma/specs/specs_carbines.html (http://www.legacysports.com/products/puma/specs/specs_carbines.html)
Don, I have no experience with .45 Colt or .454 Casull in a carbine, but I have shot a Winchester M1894 carbine in .44 mag. It was one of the more uncomfortable guns to shoot I have ever used. It seems to me that the felt recoil was comparable to a Marlin Guide Gun in 45/70 with fullhouse factory loads that I shot recently, which was also a major handful. I'd rather have a 30-30 for the flatter trajectory (especially with the new plastic tipped spitzer style bullets now available, I think called Leverloution from one of the major bullet mfgs) and comparable energy.
See a comparison at:
http://ammoguide.com/?tool=bcompare&it=38-1175202879%7c95-1160615386%7c144-02001260
I used the highest muzzle energy loads for 30-30, .454 Casull, and 45/70 Gov't. It would be interesting to compare the downrange energy numbers to get a better handle on overall usability of the three calibers. I didn't get to choose a barrel length for the .454, so the numbers are likely skewed by the assumption of a shorter barrel than we are talking about. I'll run a comparison on RCBS Load this evening and report back.
The heavy bullets in the handgun calibers are what lead to the severe recoil in the light carbine, combined with less than perfect stock fit, at least for me, 6', 185lbs.
500 grain 45/70 bullets driven at near .458 Win. Mag. velocity kick hard no matter what, but I really didn't feel a lot of difference for practical purposes between the .44 and the 45/70 as far as discomfort, but there is a big difference in the energy developed and delivered.
Addendum: I checked the trajectory difference between a 300 grain Barnes bullet for the .454 launched at 2000fps, which is likely about what you could expect from a pretty hot load in a 16" barrel, against the standard 30-30 load with 170 grain bullet at 2200fps. If you zero at 100yds, the 30-30 will drop about 8" at 200yds, the .454 a bit over 10". However the .454 will retain about 200lbs/ft more energy at 200 yards, around 1000 vs 1200.
So it appears on that basis they're pretty comparable. These numbers reflect the old round nose bullet in the 30-30. I suspect the new pointed bullets would make a significant difference. Either way, the deer or the hog is dead if the bullet is placed well!
Not too long ago I read an article about the logistics that favor the .223 as a military round.
According to the article it seems nearly half the soldiers in combat don't fire their weapon at all. Of those who do fire many are not aiming, and only some of those who actually fire their rifle towards the enemy hit someone. Ergo we need to provide them with a LOT of ammo. The .223 being much lighter than the 7.62 NATO (.308) round that it replaced, it was easier on the supply lines and the individual soldier could carry more ammo.
Now IMO this was the argument of a bean counter. Not someone trying to dissuade an aggressor.
I'm also amused by the development of the new round. In typical government fashion we are spending big bucks testing and developing what looks like will be nearly a clone of the old, and now obsolete, .250 Savage. Actually I've thought about buying a rifle chambered for the 6.8mm Remington, one of the rounds under consideration. It would make a fine east coast rifle.
They love to reinvent the wheel, don't they? The old 6.5mm Mauser is another well-proven cartridge in the same energy category. They may be trying to take advantage of the new powders to keep the overall length of the round about the same as the .223 so the rifle doesn't have to be altered, though. That's about the only reason I can think of to develop another cartridge.
Quote from: MountainDon on December 05, 2008, 01:37:07 PM
In a similar vein does anyone have any experience shooting 454 Casull's (or hi performance 45 Colt's in a rifle?
I guess what I'm asking is has anyone first arm experience in comparing the 454 Casull in a rifle, with the 45-70, using something like a Buffalo Bore 300 to 350 gr.+P load as the comparator.
... and the second part, any first hand experience with Puma as far as quality?
Until your post I'd never heard of Puma ???
It would make a nice companion gun to your revolver. The only problem I see is that many of the replica guns are built on the '92 and earlier actions and eject straight up. It makes mounting any kind of scope a nuisance. I'd probably put a Lyman peep sight on it. My eyes don't work so well with normal iron sights anymore. :(
Quote from: John C on December 05, 2008, 07:27:02 PM
My eyes don't work so well with normal iron sights anymore. :(
Mine too! :(
With a long eye relief scope it would be possible to have an optical sight though.
(http://www.legacysports.com/images/_products/PUM_ScoutModel.jpg)
I've never cared much for that type of mount either functionally or esthetically. Have you ever used one?
i had a .450 marlin guide gun and plan to get another one soon. they can kick a little. my buddy shot his 8 times and sold it. i shot mine 22 times the same day/range w/him and pulled a rib muscle. i still love it though. 6'2" and about 210 lbs. back then(wish i was now :().
Quote from: apaknad on December 05, 2008, 09:25:22 PM
6'2" and about 210 lbs. back then(wish i was now :().
What? 6'2"? ;D ;D
Quote from: John C on December 05, 2008, 09:00:09 PM
Have you ever used one?
I've used a Burris handgun scope on the 45-70, BUT it is a pricey addition as I can't see through the cheapies. The Lyman peep is probably a better budgetary choice. :-\ [sigh]
I've answered my own question sort of... from what I've found online the Puma rifles seem to be strongly made and shoot well. The wood is Brazillian something or other and not up to Marlin walnut standards. But the gun works.
As for the 454 several owners found on line love them. ??? ???
Has anyone here ever build a flintlock?
I've seen flintlock kits spmeplace ??? but don't know anyone with one.
Kits & finished rifles
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/compchart/comp-chart.jsp?_DARGS=/cabelas/en/common/index/index-body.jsp.6_A&_DAV=false&chartName=trd_blk_pwdr_rfl&backLink=/cabelas/en/templates/index/index-display.jsp%3Fid%3Dcat20815%26navAction%3Djump%26navCount%3D1%26cmCat%3DMainCatcat20712%26parentType%3Dcategory%26parentId%3Dcat20712&backTitle=Rifles&hasJS=true (http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/compchart/comp-chart.jsp?_DARGS=/cabelas/en/common/index/index-body.jsp.6_A&_DAV=false&chartName=trd_blk_pwdr_rfl&backLink=/cabelas/en/templates/index/index-display.jsp%3Fid%3Dcat20815%26navAction%3Djump%26navCount%3D1%26cmCat%3DMainCatcat20712%26parentType%3Dcategory%26parentId%3Dcat20712&backTitle=Rifles&hasJS=true)
Quote from: Whitlock on December 10, 2008, 10:58:11 AM
Has anyone here ever build a flintlock?
Built a bunch of them Whitlock...but never used a kit.
A lot of who I recommend depends on what style. (Lancaster, mountain, etc)
Jim Chambers of Chambers lock fame puts out the best kits I've seen. I know Jim and he's put in a ton of research and since Wallace Gussler who started the Colonial Williamsburg gunsmith shop, put in a lot of information, they're good.
They are not cheap but to be honest, a cheap flintlock isn't worth having.
Here's Jims site.
http://www.flintlocks.com/rifles.htm
If you are interested in having a rifle built from scratch, I know a number of builders personally that I can send you to. I do need to know the style though because they are all "One style builders".
I've posted this picture before. It's the last rifle I feel I'm capable of building from scratch. It's finished now and I guess I'd better get a picture.
(https://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa57/peternap/lastflinter.jpg)
Stopped by walmart today to look for a Christmas present (aren't I the romantic devil) and cruised by sporting goods to see what they had in stock at the gun counter.
Walmart was sold out of .45acp and .44 mag ammo. I asked the clerk what .44 ammo was going for, and he said that it was $36!!!!
Wow. I can load up jacketed HP ammo for about $0.20 a round. Less for target ammo. What ripoff.
I ordered .380 auto ammo- 100 rounds of them today from Sportsman's Guide. I had to try about 4 brands to get them as the others were sold out.
Quote from: NM_Shooter on December 11, 2008, 12:02:33 AM
Walmart was sold out of .45acp and .44 mag ammo. I asked the clerk what .44 ammo was going for, and he said that it was $36!!!!
Wow. I can load up jacketed HP ammo for about $0.20 a round. Less for target ammo. What ripoff.
Yep....Handloading and bullet casting are cost savers again. There for a while, cheap ammunition was chasing reloading away because there wasn't a whole lot of savings.
Thatnks for the info Peter, My dad built a few flint's from scrach in his time wish I would of payed more attention d*
Jim chambers has some nice rifles[cool] Looked at his site before and was thinking about buying one of his guns. Might try a kit for the frist one. this way I can get the feel for it.
Thanks,W
While we are (or were) on lever guns, I was just given a Winchester Model 94 in .32 WS. I'm pretty excited about it. I ordered 200 rds of hornady leverevolution through the mail at about $1 a round, ouch. I get to shoot it this weekend for the first time. I can't wait.
Don't leave them in the gun for any length of time Mike. The plastic points tend to flatten out and accuracy goes to.......,
That's good to know Peter. Thanks.
The Winchester 32 Special in a 94 was the first center fire rifle I ever fired. I think I was 14 or so.
Mike, and anyone else, if you're interested in finding out when that 94 was manufactured have a look at the link below. In the case of the 94 this page is only good to 1982, other models may vary. There's also a Marlin, Remington and a couple others that can be searched.
http://armscollectors.com/sn/windates.htm (http://armscollectors.com/sn/windates.htm)
peter, thanks for the advice, I won't leave em in there.
Don, Mine was made in 1926. I will have to read the picture tutorial and figure out how to add a picture.
Put the picture in Photobucket - free account, then after it is saved copy the bottom IMG file line - and paste it into your message. It is now easiest to click on the photobucket picture to show it then copy the line - they made another way to do it - - off the thumbnail -- copy the bottom line with control/c -then paste here.
Proper shooting technique? Peter, is this one of your training videos? hmm
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=27635401
holy mackerel, did he use some sort of trigger firing device to do that?
Quote from: apaknad on December 12, 2008, 12:22:16 PM
holy mackerel, did he use some sort of trigger firing device to do that?
It's pretty easy, just let the recoil fire it.
I never understood why people wasted Ammunition like that though.
Proper shooting technique? Peter, is this one of your training videos? hmm
Now wait a minute...I may be a few pounds heavier than I was 20 years ago, but I can still see nmy knees ???
[rofl2]
(http://thumb3.webshots.net/t/52/552/1/51/76/2092151760103512223WhUQyF_th.jpg) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2092151760103512223WhUQyF)
(http://thumb3.webshots.net/t/63/563/2/3/51/2535203510103512223dJuCZa_th.jpg) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2535203510103512223dJuCZa)
(http://thumb3.webshots.net/t/69/669/0/89/18/2087089180103512223ATkXAH_th.jpg) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2087089180103512223ATkXAH)
Webshots seems to work.
Glenn and I were in the gun store today. The shelfs were empty four pistols in the cabinet. The store owner told us that Glock is about 100,000 guns behind :-\
Do you think that American citizens are arming themselves or what [cool]
I have used a friend's reloading equipment for some time. My son and I have been talking about getting our own equipment. What's a good make/model? A kit with everything except the disposables and maybe the caliber specific dies?
Quote from: MountainDon on January 27, 2009, 11:52:10 PM
I have used a friend's reloading equipment for some time. My son and I have been talking about getting our own equipment. What's a good make/model? A kit with everything except the disposables and maybe the caliber specific dies?
This is the press you want Don:
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=513567
RCBS makes a kit with the Rock Chucker. That press will do any and all single stage reloading you will ever need.
For shotgun shells, I've used the original of this for 40 years (The same machine):
http://www.ballisticproducts.com/prodinfo.asp?number=1308447%20%20%2012&variation=
Thank you Peter. I have been looking at that RCBS at Midway :D ; hadn't got to thinking about the shotgun yet.
I've been told the 505 scale is very good. ?
Hmmm... my browser ate my reply!
I have had a few scales, and the 505 is my favorite. If I recall correctly, it has agate bearing surfaces. Don't store the scale with the beam on the scale.
Once you get a scale, get a bunch of small objects like paper clip, dime, bb's, etc, and weigh them. Note their weights and put them in an envelope for storage. If you ever wonder if your scale has drifted out of calibration or gotten damaged or whatever, pull out those references and check them. You can also buy check weights if you want a more expensive way to check your scale.
I have found that I get much more accurate and repeatable results if when I measure, I tap the scale pan to let it swing gently.
The 505 is also a nice scale in that the magnetic damper uses a copper sheet instead of aluminum.
BTW... I once started to wonder about how those scales actually work. It took me an overnight sleep to figure it out. Here's the question...
If you have a perfectly theoretical balance beam, it will balance perfectly when the two moments exactly equal one another. But if one side weighs more than the other side just a little, that heavy side will collapse all the way down.
With a scale, if you are just a little bit off, the heavy side will go down maybe just a little bit. Many scales have a graduated pointer to help in measuring.
If one side is heavier than the other at the initial balance point, how is it possible that the reloading scale (a practical scale vs a theoretical one) can find equilibrium and not keep moving until it hits a mechanical stop?
Any guesses? ;D
The center of gravity is below the pivot.
As the lighter side rises, the lever arm on that side increases and the lever arm of the heavy side decreases. Soon the moments of the two sides are equal.
???
Things that make you go hmmmmm
Nope... both sides are proportionally affected the same... by the cosine of the angle. The weight dish places a point load on the beam that stays in the same location.
This would also work if the load was above the pivot point of the beam.
I have several scales and I keep using my 40+ year old Lyman. It is a near duplicate of the 505 and hasn't let me down yet.
Don, you'll find you use the scale very little if you have a GOOD dispenser. Use the scale to set it up and weigh every 10th charge.....unless you are loading maximum loads. Carefully weigh each one using the same routine each time.
(http://www.conneely-studio.com/pics/beam.jpg)
I was running out the door when I posted earlier and don't think I explained it well. But if the pivot was below the CG it wouldn't work.
It can be considered as one load with a single CG as shown above or as two loads each having a moment arm from the pivot. I can draw it the second way as well.
place a square stick on top of your finger and balance it. Put a small weight on top of the stick on one end. The stick will rotate slightly and will come to equilibrium even though the center of mass of the stick and weight are above the fulcrum.
Now do the same with a razor blade for a balancing point instead of your finger. The slight change in mass on the end will make the stick rotate much more, and quite possibly cause the whole thing to topple off. The CG / CM and initial fulcrum point have not changed, yet the stick rotates much more.
Why do you suppose that is? ;D
I'm trying to imagine what's going on without getting our balance beam scale out of wherever it is. ???
Maybe I need to sleep on it?
The CG of the loaded beam essentially form a pendulum beneath the pivot.
When you balance a stick on your finger (or anything mushy) the pivot point can move a little. The load is spread out and a small change would be accommodated.
You can balance a stick on top of a razor blade but if the cg is above the pivot an imbalance will not be corrected by a small rotation of the beam (stick).
Here is a drawing with the CG above the pivot. Any loading that moves the CG from directly above the pivot will disturb the balance and in this case as the beam rotates counterclockwise the moment arm between the load and the CG increases. Exactly the opposite of our beam scale example.
(http://www.conneely-studio.com/pics/beam2.jpg)
You seem to be saying that a beam balance behaves the same whether the CG is above or below the pivot and that's not the case.
Hmmm... you've got me thinking. So here's the question.. why does it find equilibrium for some point other than theta = 90deg? I believe that if you replace your pivot point with a roller bearing, the system becomes grossly imbalanced. Consider the force diagram for this:
(https://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q46/nm_longshot/beam.jpg)
Unless the beam in the model can not be represented as a line..
Are you saying that the shift of the mass of the beam itself (the small wedge of the beam under the fulcrum point) is solely responsible for the new equilibrium?
In your example once out of equilibrium the beam would not stabilize.
Here is a diagram of what I tried to verbalize in my first post. You took it to mean that I said the CG of one side or the other had moved...not at all
The CG stays the same but the moment arm changes as the CG rotates around the pivot point. The moment of each side is dependent on it's horizontal distance from the pivot.
If one side is slightly heavier it will rotate in a direction shortening the moment arm. The moment arm of the lighter side becomes somewhat longer. The beam will "pendulum" until the two moments are equal.
(http://www.conneely-studio.com/pics/beam3.jpg)
If you replace the pivot point on your model with a roller bearing... what happens?
Yes... in my diagram equilibrium won't occur. That was my point. But in practice equilibrium occurs. Why does my force balance model not fit the actual beam? Is it because the beam can not be modeled as a single line? That might be it.
I had though that the reason for equilibrium was that the fulcrum point is not perfect... it has a radius. As the beam shifts down, the moment arm on the downhill side shortens as the fulcrum point rolls towards it. (the finger and stick example)
However, in looking at my balance in the garage, the fulcrum point is above the center of the beam itself, which is what you noted above. I think that if we use either your first or third drawings, when the beam shifts, a larger portion of the mass of the beam is displaced which is below the pivot point. So the thing is stable at some theta angle. If we use your drawing #2, the majority of the mass of the beam is above the pivot point and the beam would topple. Is that right?
Another night's sleep wasted!
-f-
QuoteIs it because the beam can not be modeled as a single line?
BINGO
Here is a drawing showing (more or less) the change in the moment arm as the beam rotates from horizontal (gray beam) to 30˚
Changing the pivot from a point, which is what it is in a good beam balance, to a finger or a roller bearing just muddies the issue.
The pendulum drawing #1 is probably the easiest to understand.
(http://www.conneely-studio.com/pics/beam4.jpg)