Since no one else has brought it up so far, what do you all think about the government raid on the FLDS group in Texas? Not defending polygamy or pedophilia by any stretch of the imagination, I have a real problem with the fact that the women who left the compound with their children are now being separated from their children and the CPS says that it is not "customary" to leave the children in abuse cases with their parents. I seriously doubt that most of those mothers were abusing their kids, and furthermore, there is no evidence that would convict most of them... they've not had a trial. As much as I don't think a cultic environment is good for the kids, being forcibly removed from everything they've ever known and loved is probably far more traumatic. Who is to say that the government couldn't step in and remove kids from any home or parent without evidence of abuse? Furthermore, most research points to the fact that being with a parent who is less than perfect is still better for the kid in the long run than being shuffled through the foster care system, unless of course, there is real abuse going on. Most of those women who left the compound with their kids probably really do want the best for their kids, and while they may not be perfect, I'm sure that they love their kids.
I agree with you HG! It's sad that 1st the mothers of these children suffered sexual abuse & forced to marry the older men of this group & then became pregnant... they were just children themselves when they were isolated from all outside influences & forced into polygamous marriages to these lecherous men. Now, they not only get their children taken from them, their children are separated from them. From my reading on foster care, it is not always the best & can be even worse adding to the trauma.
The gov't can be so stupid... & yes, that does bring up the subject of just when they can separate children from parents... I've read where if the parents don't immunize their children, that can be considered child abuse & children taken away... there's a new guildeline by the AMA that refusing the get your children immunized could constitute child abuse... so, that could lead to taking children from parents & putting them in foster care.
Well, not to defend big, stupid gov't....but I guess I don't have enough details.
From what I've read, the moms were either willing participants in providing their kids for underage marriage, or just had their children forced into it anyway. A few moms said enough... and asked the state to evaluate after a chickenpox breakout.
Either one of these types of moms indicates to me that the mom probably is not a capable parent anyway. I did read that the moms with younger kids were allowed to stay with them. As much as I hate to agree with our gestapo government, I think that they probably did the right thing. It does not sound as if this is a permanent situation, just until they can sort out what is going on, and which parents are capable of being sound custodians.
The part that scares me is... who does that evaluation? :-[ The poor kids are going to be traumatized because of seperation, but I can't help but wonder if this is a pay now or pay later situation. If left with incapable parenting, it is better to figure that out now.
This sort of reminds me of the Waco situation. I'm glad it didn't spin into that.
Regarding crummy parents, I heard on the radio yesterday that there was a domestic disturbance that was the result of two parents arguing over which street gang their 4yr old kid should join. Yikes. Poor kid!
This is one of those topics I am going to try to be very careful. Cause I do believe it is very sensitive.
I am of mixed opinion on this. Now what opened this can of worms is the fact 911 (or some authority) got a call from a girl in harms way.
This was the door opener for the government to step in. I am sure they had their eye on this compound but had no legal standing to enter until this call came. I am very protective of my Religious belief. So with that I feel the same need to protect others of their religious belief. But there is this issue with the fact the LDS church them self does not practice polygmy . Second I believe (could be wrong here) that even in the Mormon faith they have the blessing of free will. Thus Free Will has not been given to these young girls. So I really think that this is not a religion this is a cult.
As far as the immunization issue being an issue of child abuse. I really want to see the government try that. I mean they can try but I do not believe they will win. Then they would have to go into communities like the Amish.
I'm not sure if mainstream Mormons really believe in free will either, though. Maybe in some things. I had a roommate who was Mormon, and when her parents decided that she was being too influenced by those outside the Mormon church, they literally sent her brother to kidnap her. He sent her to the store with his friend to get groceries because he was allegedly going to take her camping for the weekend. While she was gone to the store, he packed up all her stuff and loaded it in his car, and then forcibly took her back home. Her family wouldn't let her read my letters and wouldn't let her contact me at all. Six months later I get a call from the LDS visitor center in LA, and they got my contact info from my old roommate, who is now serving her mission there in LA and they want to know if they can send some mormon missionaries to my house to talk to me. I asked them if I could talk to my roommate, and they adamantly refused to allow her to talk to me, so I told them they could keep their missionaries if they wouldn't allow her to talk to me... after all, I argued, she knows me better than any of them and would probably make the best "missionary" to me. They wouldn't budge.
I don't think mainstream LDS practices polygamy or pedophilia as a rule.
Also, if the conditions inside the FLDS compound in Texas are really as bad as the media makes it sound, the women in question are probably as much in need of protection as are the kids. If the abuse allegations are true, then they would probably face further abuse if they return to the compound for leaving in the first place, though I think that the reason they left was the instinct to protect their own kids. I feel for them... as a mom, I can't imagine the government stepping in and telling me they were taking my kids.
I believe CPS (CYFD in NM) walks a fine line at times. They're damned if they do something and damned if they don't. I'll also say that those departments can be heavy handed at times.
The former leader of that group, Warren S Jeffs, is in jail for crimes including sexual conduct with minors, from a case related to his alleged arrangement of extralegal marriages between his adult male followers and underage girls. I have little doubt that the same thing was going on in the TX FLDS compound.
I've not studied Mormonism, but we have neighbors and friends who are Mormons. I have traveled (4X4 backcountry around UT) with a number of Mormons. They all seem to be pretty normal family oriented people. Like any group there are bound to be some bad apples, but I'd say the run-of-the-mill mainstream Mormon is very much like most other folks. I don't condemn them or any other group simply on the actions of one or two. However, the history of FLDS leads me to believe there is evil being perpetrated on innocent people within their so-called church. If anyone is restrained from exercising their personal freedom by the hierarchy of a so-called religious group they belong to, in my mind that organization is then a cult. It doesn't matter if they originally joined willingly or if they were born into the group.
I believe it is possible to influence, brainwash if you will, people to your way of thinking if you are offering something they are seeking, something they lack, neded, etc. A normal mainstream Christian church does that on some level. Some people resist and question better than others. I believe that all the children and the women in FLDS have been influenced and coerced into virtual slavery. The same might be said of some of the men; they've been made to believe the FLDS way is the correct way, and so go on perpetuating the misery. So, at the present I'd say that none of the women or men are proper mothers and fathers. I don't believe that should be a permanent thing, but somebody's got a big job there, trying to "normalize" the women and children.
Stinker, I think you hit the nail on the head with the "free will" statement. I think that should be the standard litmus test to discern religion from cult.
I work with several folks who are LDS, and I have friends as well who are LDS. I have to say that I would have any of them as neighbors in a heartbeat. I do notice that the women tend to be a little more on the quiet side (I was not going to use the word "subservient" but there it is). They are family oriented, church oriented, and community oriented. I have a lot of respect for the way they live their lives.
I suspect that there are always fringe folks that can make any group look awful. As a Catholic, we have our share.
I am a Christian, my brother is a Mormon who lives in Provo. I have always been treated so wonderfully when I go for a visit. We have an agreement. I do not beat him with my bible he doesn't slap me back with his. Although I do not agree with his choice I respect his free will.
I also know from that part of the family how the woman folk feel about what the FLDS folks. It ain't nice. And yes I agree there are always some nuts in any group.
Because of my faith I am very cautious about what the police did. But in this case I feel that the were legally right. Now how they proceed in this matter is another can of worms.
Well, my main problem is separating the moms from the kids. After all, those moms left willingly with their kids, and I doubt that they're without supervision in the shelter they're in. I've known of drug addicts and alcoholics who are still allowed supervised (and at times even unsupervised) visitation rights. Yes, I agree with Don, too that the CPS has a really tough job... I just don't think there was justification to take the kids away from their moms.... even though I do think that the FLDS is a cult, by any standard. I don't think the moms are abusing them physically or sexually (especially since they are under such scrutiny right now) and though they can still be engaged in brainwashing the kids to expect the norms for their cult, there is no way they can force an underage girl to marry right at the moment. Couldn't they have left one parent with the child at least for the time being? Did they really htink it was necessary to tear the kids' whole world apart?
I see your point HT. That is that can of worms.
I am not sure however it is handled that something wrong will happen. I see your point and I see the point that these moms are complicit with what has been happening at that compound.
The biggest problem I have with this deal is the blanket charges being leveled against every single member of that church without any proof whatsoever. It would be no different if they took every kid in a small town because one citizen was accused of a crime. I feel every single one of these parents needs their own seperate trial. To lump them all together because the where members of the same church is insane. I would have filed a multi million dollar lawsuit the next day against every single agency involved. BTW I'm a member of the LDS church. I haven't been active in over 10 years and don't plan to be in the future. It is a a cult of sorts but then again so are alot of other churches.
Good point, Scott. What if they decided to take all the Baptist and Pentecostal kids away from their parents because the church teaches that homosexuality is a sin and that might constitute so-called "hate-speech" and teaching "intolerance" to the kids? The state of TX is saying they are justified because abused kids are more likely to tell the truth when they are not with their parents. Fine. So be it. Take the kids away for questioning, but to totally take them away from their parents with no if or when on when they will see them again... well, the kids are going to say whatever they think will get them back to mom. These kids already have NO REASON to trust the adults questioning them... now they have even less reason to trust them. While I am all for investigating every single one of the parents in the compound, and have no doubt that there was probably abuse going on, I think that they ought to treat every single one of them as individuals. It was one girl alleging abuse, and while there are probably more cases than that, to basically take away a whole town's worth of kids without proof is not justifiable.
But like Stink said, no matter how it was handled, I think there'd be something to complain about.
Thats just it HG they aren't treating them as individuals. The judge is going to hear the case like a class action suit. The fate of all will be decided in one hearing.
I am totally disterbed with this. I feel so sorry for the mothers and the children in this mess.
As it first came out I was for the initial try to find the girl. Now it is bieng said that there was no call.
I can only hope that tgis ws not just an over zealous Sheriff trying to get rid of the FDLS in his county. That would be a real pity.
Escape by Carolyn Jessop (http://www.amazon.com/Escape-Carolyn-Jessop/dp/0767927567/ref=pd_bbs_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1208828845&sr=1-2)
I last heard the call may have been 10 years ago -- if ever.
The state is taking DNA from the kids and who knows -- maybe they will do an experimental chip program on them. My buddy thinks so.
Well, one thing the DNA may show is what underage girls have given birth, fathered by old men. It's illegal and immoral for adults to take advantage of children. I believe if it can be proved, the men responsible should pay.
I believe virtually nobody caught in that trap of a cult has a normal sense of what is right and wrong. Left to their own they would continue to breed and brainwash future generations of victims.
no kid needs to be pregnant at the age of 13...
So if that is true something needed to be done...
But I mean we have rights and those people have rights.. they have to be proven guilty before we go in take the kids arrest them... go onto their land and forcefully remove them...
A lot of time if a group of people live on their own away from society not doing as they are told Then the government will say they are evil and that they need to be stopped... I am not big on the government just going where they want when they want and doing what they want...
i wonder what the excuse would be if a group of people got together and decided to live in a commune away from government and they did not have irregular sexual experiences... or use drugs... they just refused to be cowed by government...
I wonder what the excuse would be then to go onto their land against their will with no right to remove them and eliminate any who opposed them...
Try this on for size.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge
Glenn it is stuff like that, which scares me truly...It has always been my dream to live out in the woods away from people... But no matter what you do they will come for you it seems...
Luckily for me I have nothing to do with guns....It was stupid for the guy to sell an illegal gun to someone he did not personally know
The first stupid thing Weaver did was shortening the barrel length of a shotgun to under 18" without paying the ATF fee.
That doesn't make anything else necessarily correct, but shorter than legal (without special paperwork and fees) length shotgun (18") or rifle (16") will get anyone in trouble every time. Period.
Same thing for having sex with under age children.
Child protective services in Texas has a long history of abusing the rights of parents and of false accusations. I know 2 different families that where investigated based on half truths and assumtions with no proof whatsoever. One was a mother who was unloading groceries from the car when her 3 year old wandered off. She called 911 imedeatly and the child was found playing in a yard nearby within a few minutes. She is a registered nurse who works in labor and delivery. The investigation nearly cost her job. The other was a little girl who fell on the front stairs and brusied her leg. Her teacher saw the bruise and called CPS. The CPS invesigator practicaly accused the father of lying when he told them what happened. No proof at all but they where convinced the child had been abused. Stuff happens to even the best parents. For the government to accuse people of child abuse for every little thing is nuts.
I know of an amish family here in OK that was accused of child abuse because they wouldn't let their children watch TV or go to the movies. They where eventualy vendicated but not before they had their home searched several times without warning.
Maybe those kids in the FLDS church did need help, maybe they didn't. But without any proof the government had no cause to take them. A 911 call by one person is not just cause to take 400+ kids from their parents.
QuoteThe first stupid thing Weaver did was shortening the barrel length of a shotgun to under 18" without paying the ATF fee.
Never mind that it was a government agent who talked him into doing it. Yes he broke the law. I agree with that. But the FBI had no right to shoot his wife and son. His son was shot in the back by the way while running away. And his wife was killed while holding a baby in her arms.
Quote from: ScottA on April 22, 2008, 12:37:57 PM
I know of an amish family here in OK that was accused of child abuse because they wouldn't let their children watch TV or go to the movies. They where eventualy vendicated but not before they had their home searched several times without warning.
Maybe those kids in the FLDS church did need help, maybe they didn't. But without any proof the government had no cause to take them. A 911 call by one person is not just cause to take 400+ kids from their parents.
I think there are a lot of cases like that, Scott. I had a person threaten to call Child Protective Services because of a birthmark on my daughter's back... she has a "mongolian spot" on her rear and lower back... and it does look just like a bruise. It has lightened up over the years (now that she is 5) but still looks like a bruise. When she was a baby, her doctor told me very strongly to make sure that if I ever took her to an ER or another doctor to BE SURE to tell the doctor that her dad is Asian and that it is a birthmark and not a beating. I've also had people make the assumption that if you are homeschooling your kids, you are hiding abuse...(one of them is the same woman who'd let her own son stay plugged into electronic devices all day with no monitoring whatsoever.... and she worries that my kids won't be properly "socialized"!)
I think that there was certainly reason to investigate the parents, but to take that many kids from their families with no evidence of abuse seems like the worst of many options. For one, it presents a logistical nightmare. Secondly, it strains an already overworked child welfare system. Third, it reinforces what the kids have probably already learned about the "outside world" being evil. If they have evidence of either physical or sexual abuse, then by all means the kids need to be removed from the home, but they just pulled hundreds of families apart without having all the evidence.
My grandma was raised Freewill Holiness and told me when I was five that I'd probably go to hell for wearing earrings and jeans. Does stuff like that constitute abuse? If so, I bet that 99% (if not 100%) of us on these forums could claim we'd been abused. My freedom of speech was limited because I wasn't allowed to say words like "stupid", "hate", and "gosh" (not to mention anything typically thought of as profanity.) Does that constitute abuse? Now, rape of kids and physical beatings are surely abusive, but my problem comes with them just applying the one supposed call for help to a whole big group of kids and parents without investigating first. Who's to say that CPS couldn't bust down my door for "brainwashing" my kids to learn scripture or for not allowing them to say "stupid"? Or for that matter, for teaching them about creationism as opposed to Darwinism? Yes, if the TX CPS found young girls who were pregnant, then they had reason to take them from the home, or if they found evidence that the kids had been abused, or if any of the kids asked for help... certainly, if they had other evidence against specific parents, then it is justified in those cases.
I know, it's a can of worms.... :-\
Scott
I could not agree with you more...They had no right to shoot the 14 year old boy with no record and they had no warrant for him... likewise the mother holding a baby...
The real injustice is that the sniper who killed those people on purpose did not get the death penalty...I bet he did not even go to jail for murdering those two innocent people
Well the feds learned their lesson...now they just set fire to the building and kill everyone. That way they can make up any story they like to cover the mass murder. Don't even get me started on Waco. I knew America was a changed land when I saw that.
I'm still a bit on the fence on this, but leaning towards CPS. Unfortunately, there is smoking gun proof that child abuse was happening here, and no one was reporting it. Multiple underage pregnancies from "husbands" that were 3 to 4 times the age of the (child) "wife".
These pregnancies and subsequent births to underage child parents were not hidden. Parents of these poor pregnant kids and other adults knew about it. I think the lesser of two evils was to go in, get the kids into safe care immediately, and then figure out details.
The part that I am uncomfortable about is the evaluative stage that they are in now. The wheels of this particular organization turn very slowly. I also think that they will tend to be over-critical.
But I do believe that there are very few, possibly zero innocent adults there. They all knew about it, and either promoted it actively or passively (by their silence).
We have never lived in a society where you have to be proven guilty to be arrested. I can't imagine how something like that would work.
I feel really, really bad for the kids. Not at all for the adult moms who let this happen. Even less for the men.
What a mess.
Seems to me that they provoke you to move so they have a target...And if you do not die quickly then they get a bulldozer or set you on fire..
Sort of like the old westerns... come out or we burn you out...
Sad to think that someone not hurting anyone specifically should have to leave their land or that the government can enter their land without permission...
Well, yesterday I watched a video of some of the moms being interviewed by Katie Couric, and I have to say that they were so spacey that it did make me sympathize more with CPS than before. It was like they were pre-programmed with X number of answers to give her, and they didn't necessarily correlate to the question asked. The one question that they never gave a remotely satisfactory answer to was when Couric asked them about young girls being forced into marriage... it reminded me of the US POW in Viet Nam who was sending Morse code messages with his eyes about torture, yet saying that they were OK. The women kept saying over and over, "Everyone gets to choose" but the answer wasn't the same in their eyes, if you know what I mean. Still, I think that the whole thing must be absolutely terrifying to the kids, and I wish they'd left the kids with their moms at least until they had a better idea of what they were going to do with all of them. Anyway, I think the whole fiasco is a mess.
I believe everyone can agree the situation is a mess. I also believe that by now everyone should be able to see that that FLDS compound was not and is not a place to raise children. It's clear that there were many young girls pregnant and giving birth and that was no cause for alarm to any of the adults. Rather it was condoned by the adults, the men, the loving mothers. Add the current situation to the cults track record and I don't see that there was any alternative course of action.
I do feel sorry for the kids. However, I would feel even more sorry to know that there were still arranged "marriages" between mature men and children going on.
What was reported at the onset is a lie and now it has become an abuse of the legal system, imo.
I am not sure how DNA testing is really going to help. From my understanding their "Family Tree" is more of a "Family Wreath". I think that is going to be the loophole to this whole debacle.
It will either clear this sect, by clearing you will not see a wreath but a tree or it will confirm for some not only is she your mom but she is your sister and second cousin.
I don't know one way or another if the initial call was real or falsified.
But if there was any suspicion of wrong doing with any of the children in the FLDS, PARTICULARLY sexual abuse, which is what it is when older adult males have sex with children, are we supposed to sit around until there is something officially reported? None of the adults in the FLDS were/are likely to make any complaint. They believe they have done no wrong!!
At the same time, NO, I don't approve of police state gestapo tactics.
What to do??? ???
legally there has to be a complaint filed by someone inside I think...
A rumor or speculation from someone outside is not enough to get a warrant... to smash their way onto land uninvited and to search and seize...
I do not agree with 13 and 14 year olds getting married... but there was a time not so long ago even in this country when it was quite commonplace for girls under 16 to get married and pregnant without parents permission
heck some states kids can get married when they are under the age of 16 with permission...
The men being 10 years older bothers me.... but does any of us think that the huge majority of teen agers 13 and 14 out there are not having sex? And how many young girls in america get pregnant each year that are under the age of 16 and not in a cult or commune?
We have little right to judge or be hippocritical when many of the things we are ostracisizing them for run rampant everyday outside in society
So far all I've seen is hearsay, no real proof of any kind has been offered. Someone who they can't find now suposedly made a call to an abuse shelter and thats cause to take 437 kids from their parents? benevolance has a point. Underage pregnancy is quite common. That doesn't make it right but it's nothing thats exclusive to this group. The part I have a real issue with would be rape or forced marrige. If the person gives consent it's really nobodys business except the families.
yes it is very disturbing that the so called person that complained about abuse suddenly has vanished...and so they have seized the kids arrested the parents and disturbed their way of life without any inkling of proof... nothing concrete that would stand up in court... nothing to warrant a warrant... no pun intended there...
I thought that I saw a picture of someone who made that call and it wasn't a 16 year old at the compound. I thought that the calls where traced, that there were 2 one about the place in Texas and one about Warren Jeff's compound. I thought that maybe it was Denver they were traced to. But maybe that was a hoax to because I haven't seen anything else and you would thing it would be all over. I'm really trying not to follow this, a little to crazy for me. but sad and scary.
FWIW though:
I tend to agree with Don in general about the whole situation.
I think like Scott says that each person should have a separate day in court. At least I hope you still have that right.
I agree with Homegrown that the mothers looked like they were out of it. I've seen my share of people under the influence of other people ideologies etc and the all look act the same to me.
I think with Randy Weaver they were trying to set him up as an informant.
Mike
i would agree that they were targetting randy weaver because they thought they could use him as an informant... And when he refused they tried to persecute him... I do not think they ever wanted him outright because he was living pretty small hurting nobody on his own land....But they thought he might know some anti government movement or whatever..
Weavers biggest crime is that he told the feds to go f *bomb* themselves
The Weaver issue is another topic altogether in my opinion. He was plain stupid in falling into the trap of selling an illegal weapon. Of that there's no doubt, no argument. People who want to stay out of the clutches of the government or legal system shouldn't sell illegal guns. Period. As I said before that does NOT mean that anything that followed was necessary or good.
I don't believe anyone ever suspected Weaver of abusing children. On the other hand there is historical evidence that followers of the FLDS cult have done just that. So far, we the viewing public, have not been presented with proofs in the TX case. We'll have to wait and see.
While we're waiting some might find it instructive to do a little reading about the FLDS.
The HOPE Organization is a non-profit group dedicated to assisting survivors of abuse within polygamous relationships on their journey to personal freedom.
http://www.childbrides.org/
http://www.childbrides.org/taxes_Pres_bleed_beast.html
A book and a documentary. (trailer available for free viewing)
http://bankingonheaven.com/
"Spiritual Wife" or Single Mother? article/review
The film Banking On Heaven explores polygamy and religion in Colorado City
http://www.dominionpaper.ca/arts/2005/10/27/spiritual_.html
It's not just girls who are abused, boys are too, but not in the same ways as girls. "Lost Boys"
http://www.mazeministry.com/mormonism/polygamy/lostboys.htm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/jun/14/usa.julianborger
http://www.childbrides.org/boys.html
From Anderson Cooper, CNN
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0612/31/acd.07.html
(Sorry if this posts twice... I must have hit the wrong button.)
No... legally there does not have to be a complaint in the case of a felony. An adult having sex with a child is a felony. It does not matter if her mom approved and gave her away. That makes her mom a felon too. Felons get prosecuted, with or without complaints.
I am a little shocked at how accepting some are with regards to child abuse.
Historical events do not set precedence for ethical behavior. Slavery is an example.
Underage pregnancy is common. If it is caused by an adult, and proven, the adult is prosecuted. This is not the same thing as two teenagers fooling around. Remember, we are talking about children in their young teens being pregnant... there are huge differences emotionally and physically between an 18 year old and a 13 year old.
I have no issues with the man being 10 years older as long as the woman is of legal consensual age.
Is it fully understood that children are not legally able to consent to sex with an adult? Never! And that even an adult soliciting sexual contact with a minor is a felony? Ever watch those news show chatroom stings?
In this instance, kicking in the door and getting the kids away from what was clearly an unhealthy and abusive environment looks like the lesser of evils. Trying to negotiate in a situation like this would have resulted in them locking down the compound and FLDS assuming a defensive stance. It didn't work out in Waco and it would not have worked here.
Personally, I don't give a crap what anybody does on their own property, under two simple conditions:
1) Your emissions completely stay on your property and don't affect me or my neighborhood: sound, kids, pets, smell, fluids, projectiles, friends, garbage, whatever.
2) Don't hurt innocents : kids, animals, handicapped, elderly
And you know what? If you follow these simple rules, the authorities usually don't give a crap either. (Except for the IRS.)
BTW... on a slightly different angle, my cop neighbor has sometimes worked with the state in setting up chatroom stings. He says that it is frightening how quickly predators will latch onto someone that they think is a vulnerable kid. They literally don't have enough officers to work these cases.
... need an applauding smiley :)
The thing that bothers me about this whole FLDS thing is that not a single arrest has been made, not a single charge has been filed but every single child has been removed from their home. If the CPS/LE folks have enough evidence to remove over 400 children then certainly there should be at least one little bity charge on someone? Just one? more would be better but this has been going on for some time now and the only ones I see suffering are the children. If these were the judges children what would be happening? Maybe thier tax paid for attorneys would be bringing some actions? As far as abuse allegations go the LE and CPS have been quite slow to act on this matter. Rolling Stone did quite an article when Warren Jeffs was on the run, describing this cult and their practices. LOTS of red flags/suspicious activity, certainly enough for an investigation, for any LE or CPS agency. I don't agree with moving kids out of thier own homes just based on allegations though, evidence and facts are necessary and if they have any evidence whatsoever then swift sure punishemnt (charges/arrests) is in order. After all these kids are now sitting in state care. If they are expecting help and protection from abuse and the perpetrators are still walking free, then what motivation do they have for being forthcoming with additional information?
Somehow I get the feeling there is more to this story than we are being told by the media. This group has been known about for a long time and they (the state) just now decide to do something. Someone wanted them out of this town for some reason. Maybe they where worried how these people might effect elections maybe they wanted their land. Somethings fishy with the timing of this and the fact no one has been arrested.
Quote from: NM_Shooter on April 23, 2008, 11:50:38 PM
(Sorry if this posts twice... I must have hit the wrong button.)
I am a little shocked at how accepting some are with regards to child abuse.
I said in an earlier post on this thread this is a big old can of worms. But I am willing to have a good conversation with this group because I think overall we are adults and can handle a good discussion.
I quoted just this sentence, seeing you had it standing alone.
I have yet to see where someone has been charged with Child Abuse.
The one thing about this country is they law. they (government officials) have to have evidence and make a charge. The burden is upon the state
(the fifth and fourteenth amendment rights to life, liberty, and property not taken away without due process of the law).
It is of my opinion that the government through CPS has crossed the line. They have this power that somehow is void of meeting any burden of law. They can take your children then figure out IF you have done something wrong. There are few more laws that have nothing to do with this case, but are similar in nature, no due process, hopefully we can discuss later.
What I am going to say is now going to sound real harsh. Do not mean it to be blunt but I am not sure how to gently say what I want to say. I am not a great communicator. So be nice and try to understand my point....please.
No law or system in the world is going to be perfect. People will get hurt. That is a reality. But IMO our rights in this country are eroding at an alarming rate. So looking at the big picture, are we willing to allow the government to take more of our rights away because their might be some child abuse? We need to really think about this. This is how the Nazi's got started in the early 30's. And look what happened there.
it is always a real problem when there is hidden agendas coupled with our devout law enforcement and the system of justice.
I promised myself that i was done with this thread. Here I am d*
Sorry, but I just don't understand your thinking. I really have a disconnect with your logic. No worries about offending me... I like to debate and don't take it personally :)
In any case involving hundreds of people, and possibly dozens or hundreds of offenses with convoluted involvement further confusing things, it will usually be a while before any charges are filed. We should be grateful that this is the case. Bringing charges to bear is very serious and costly for everyone. Some charges may happen very quickly if they think that there is need to apply additional restraint.
Let's say that you are fighting a forest fire. You see the fire and know that it exists. You also know that it was arson. Are you going to determine the origin of the fire, collect complete evidence, locate the perpetrator, arrest them, try them, and determine guilt/innocence before taking any steps to extinguish the flames?
This is very similar. Get the children in a safe environment first. I'm all for supervised visits from parents. (Siblings are being kept together.)
Your quote: " take more of our rights away because their might be some child abuse?"
Do you understand that there is absolute evidence that child abuse was occurring at this compound? And that no adult was reporting it?
What rights of ours (you and me) are being taken away by CPS protecting abused children in Texas? Please be specific and logical.... help me understand your position.
Hatred of CPS or conspiracy theory paranoia does not justify defense of abusive parents. I am sure that CPS has plenty of problems, and has overstepped in many instances. But I betcha that they are much more routinely right than wrong. If not, they would be swift-boated out of existence.
What I understand is that no one from that compound called the complaint in. That a person from a different state with some sorta personality disordered called 911 to make a false statement. That is my current understanding.
As for time needed to sort out things. Due process is a process that allows only a certain amount of time. The forest fire analogy is a strawman, imo or at least comparing apples to oranges.
Here is my problem with CPS, let me say I believe they have an incredibly hard job to do. Outside of physical abuse I do honestly believe that Child Abuse is extremely subjective. I have worked in an ER for about 10 years and have seen the over reach in some areas and at the same time seen where nothing was done. I have had a ER Dr tell me to my face that Home School children are in general children that are abused and the parents do not want to school to find out. This is what he has been taught from education <insert roll eyes emote here>.
Where is the absolute evidence? I would love to read something that is more then speculation.
What I also know is that this topic is a very emotional topic. I TRY to step aside the emotional aspect of it.
As for our rights. It is the overall erosion. You want time to figure out (the forest fire example) guilt/innocence, our laws have time restrictions. Evidence has to be proved at a preliminary hearing and charges made. The burden is upon the state to met this. From what I read, this burden was not met, but the judge decided to keep the children just in case. Due Process is not being done here.
As for CPS being more right then wrong and being swift boated out? that will never happen imo. Even if they are wrong most the time they are like the IRS n this country.
Lets get real here. We are talking about hundreds of people. I can not belive for one second that every one of those kids was in danger. A few may have been but not all. A better course of action would have been for the state to meet with those people and explain their concerns and insist that untill they had a chance to complete a full investigation that CPS would need to visit and keep tabs on the goings on within the community in order to be sure the kids where safe. Then they could have taken individual action if and when they had evidence that someone had commited abuse. How many kids would have to be taken away nation wide if they took everyone who might be abused? Who will decide who is likely to commit abuse and who is not? Sounds alot like the "Minority Report". I'm not ready to live in that world. Are you?
Quote from: StinkerBell on April 24, 2008, 04:45:35 PM
Where is the absolute evidence? I would love to read something that is more then speculation.
Read the last paragraph:
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/18/polygamy.custody/index.html?iref=newssearch
From a Fox report:
http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2008Apr19/0,4670,TroubleonthePrairie,00.html
"According to other
affidavits, investigators saw numerous underage girls who were pregnant, and took statements from others who told of entering into polygamous marriages in their early teens. "
Scott... prove to me that they don't have evidence, and I will acquiesce. See the above links otherwise.
shooter...
Perhaps you should talk to glenn about the reliability of fox news... :-\
Please tell me that you are not reading their drivel
That's why I have a CNN reference too. :)
Quote from: NM_Shooter on April 24, 2008, 06:04:50 PM
That's why I have a CNN reference too. :)
I might not agree with you, but I gotta give you a "TOUCHE" for that.
I wonder what the national statistics are for underage girls that get pregnant. IF that percentage is the same in that community. I also can think of a few states that would have to change their laws about marriage when a underage girl gets pregnant.......
The pregnancy of under age girls should not be the corner stone of your argument imo. What should be an argument is girls being forced to marry and forced to have sex. Being young and pregnant is not s felony. If So Planned Parent Hood could not exist.
edit: Remember if you get mad at me and do not like my argument, my first name is Stinker!!!
Shooter I can't prove what i don't know but from what I've seen so far their case is pretty thin. 10 girls suposedly pregnant of married underage based on the churches own records not any official reports or records acording to the CNN report. Thats less than 3% of the 460+ kids taken into custody. I'm not saying no wrong was done. What I'm saying is the way this is being handled is wrong. The rights of these people have been ignored. They are being punnished simply because of where they lived and went to church. Not only that but everyone is being treated as if they are guilty without even getting their own individual hearings.
Would you think it was right for the government take your kids if someone you went to church with commited child abuse? You go to the same church so you must be an abuser too right?
If I participated in a religion where a fundamental accepted principle was the abuse of children, and I knew this, then i would not be a fit parent and the state should remove my custodial rights. It would absolutely call into question my judgement. Not only that, but if I knew about felony illegal activity and did not report it, I should be prosecuted.
For me to believe otherwise would be hypocritical.
If you read my previous posts, you would understand my position on teen pregnancy. Note that the CNN report says "married or pregnant as minors". I suspect that as DNA evidence becomes available, we'll see the dark side of this group. Affidavits of underage pregnancies tied with DNA results are going to be hard to defend against.
It is not an erosion of rights to protect the innocent. Not too long ago, we had kids in this country working for pennies in sweatshops. These families needed the money, and the employers were able to compete because of the cheap labor. That wasn't ethical either, and I bet there were a lot of folks that were upset when that got shut down. The protection of children under labor laws is not an erosion of rights nor privacy.
I've never said that all kids were being abused. But they were all at risk. And they were all being indoctrinated into thinking that underage polygamous marriage and underage preganancy is acceptable. So maybe in a psych way, they were all being abused. Very fine line there.
You know what? I would love to be absolutely wrong regarding the innocence of the adults at that compound. I really feel badly for the kids. But I would bet a ham sandwich with anyone that this is worse than we know.
P.S. I call you stinker because I like you and I am too lazy to type! If i didn't like you I would address you formally, e.g. Ms. Stinkerbell. ;D
That is true not long ago we instituted child labor laws. And through laws and due process we have eradicated these sweatshops.
You seem not to address the issue of due process.
Quote
But they were all at risk. And they were all being indoctrinated into thinking that underage polygamous marriage and underage preganancy is acceptable. So maybe in a psych way, they were all being abused. Very fine line there.
This comment is a bug juicy worm(you haven't addressed the teenage pregnancy issue in our nation either) But for fun I am going to argue with you.
I quoted you cause your statement, the last thought is "Very fine line". This is a subjective issue. Some people may think because I did not let my oldest son get a driving permit and drive that I am being abusive and not allowing him his right of passage. I make my kids go to church with us, sometimes they do not want to go, but they do not have a choice. I guess some would say that is abusive. I am forcing them to worship Jesus...I might even force them to get baptised. I might think that those parents who have signed their kids up to do 10 different clubs are abusive. I mean for a kid to go to school, keep good grades, then have baseball 3 times a week, a musical instrument once a week, Scouts, and karate. I personal think some partents push their kids into way to many activities, I consider that abusive, but that is me. I also think that some religions are bogus and are abusive to kids because they are not being taught who the real God is.
Religion is one of those real touch subjects. I know I want my rights protected and with that I need to make sure people who worship differently then me have their rights protected too.
I too have issues even felt conflicted. BUT I also think this group is a cult and not a true religion. Even in the Mainstream Mormon Church there is Free will. This to me is central. For me this is the threshold. Free will is also key to our liberty in the United States. There are laws that IMO do not conflict with religion. For example the age of consent.
What do we do when some pedophile decides to get enough followers and claim it is their religion to have sex with young boys?
The threshold for me is indeed Free Will.
Now what does this mean? I have a firm rule in my home with my children that we are Christian, and generally have had on a few occasions insisted my kids attend church. Now what if my son or daughter wants to become Buddist? I will assure you I would not be happy and encourage them to really think about their choice, but they will still need to attend church. When they turn 18 and have their own home they can do what they want. Yes it is my roof my rules. But I am not enslaving them into my religion. I am indeed raising them they way I see fit, but they are allowed their Free Will
see even I flip flop a little on the subject. But the law should be blind and be followed. due process has been denied and the thing that got the police to get a warrant to begin with was lie. The warrant imo is no good. This does not mean that after they return the childern they do no monitor and proceed in a legal way.
Quote from: StinkerBell on April 24, 2008, 08:05:48 PM
This comment is a bug juicy worm(you haven't addressed the teenage pregnancy issue in our nation either) But for fun I am going to argue with you.
Yes I did. I acknowledged it here: http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=4363.msg54004#msg54004 it is a problem everywhere.
Due process basically boils down to not being able to take life or liberty from someone without just cause and proof. This does not apply to CPS temporarily removing custody during an investigation.
Your turn... I have not seen much if any response to any of my questions... the below are not rhetorical. Feel free to comment on them.
What about this... your kid is in school in a lock down situation. The police will not let you enter to be with your child. Is this a violation of your parental rights?
You are not allowed to be present in the operating room when your child has their appendix out. Are you going to sue?
I really, really want you to answer this next question.
Let's say that your child gets nabbed by a predator while walking home from school. Your child locks themselves in a closet and calls the police. According to your argument, you would prefer the police to not respond and enter the home, right? After all, it is only a phone call. No right to enter, right?
BTW...Just like legal consent, kids don't get free will....
I'm done. We are going to disagree on this. I can't argue my logic against other's emotion. It is a left / right issue and there just is not middle ground. Thanks for the entertainment.
QuoteDue process basically boils down to not being able to take life or liberty from someone without just cause and proof. This does not apply to CPS temporarily removing custody during an investigation.
Your turn... I have not seen much if any response to any of my questions... the below are not rhetorical. Feel free to comment on them.
What about this... your kid is in school in a lock down situation. The police will not let you enter to be with your child. Is this a violation of your parental rights?
You are not allowed to be present in the operating room when your child has their appendix out. Are you going to sue?
Well I have yet to see a lock down situation last over night, I have yet to see an appendix last more then a few hours. Even the police have the right to hold for 72 hours before due process kicks in.
QuoteLet's say that your child gets nabbed by a predator while walking home from school. Your child locks themselves in a closet and calls the police. According to your argument, you would prefer the police to not respond and enter the home, right? After all, it is only a phone call. No right to enter, right?
I have no idea how to correlate this situation. Please show me in my argument where you draw your comparison.
I do no think I am the one being emotional here. I really do believe I have stood up for something based in law that even I do not agree with.
QuoteUnderage pregnancy is common. If it is caused by an adult, and proven, the adult is prosecuted. This is not the same thing as two teenagers fooling around. Remember, we are talking about children in their young teens being pregnant... there are huge differences emotionally and physically between an 18 year old and a 13 year old.
I have no issues with the man being 10 years older as long as the woman is of legal consensual age.
This is where things get real fuzzy.In Washington state when a child turns 14 when it comes to any STD, Sexual activity, Mental issues or Drug abuse a parent has no right to be notify if the child tells the doctor do not tell my parents. This same child can go to their Junior High School counselor and request to be take to a planned parenthood or other facility to have an abortion without parental knowledge or consent. Thus meaning your child can come home post abortion bleed out and as a parent you would not know you child is bleeding out in the next room. So, what do you personally think the age of consent is? Because I am confused as heck by laws.
These folks were arranging polygamist marriages of girls as young as 13; and some of you seem to be ok with that. At what age is a girl too young to be forced into marriage with a much older man?
This is an emotional issue. I understand that.
It is not that I or other approve of the arranging of these marriages.
The issue for me is how the law is being enforced. That is the main issue with me.
It's turning into a question or morals and whos morals are right and whos are wrong. In the past it was not uncommon for young girls to marry. Arranged marriages are not uncommon either. I think it was Jerry Lee lewis who married his second second cousin when she was 13. It was a scandal back then but he wasn't arrested for it. Regardless of what your personal opinions are the people still deserve to have their rights. If someone broke the law arrest them but don't blame the whole community for the wrongs of a few.
Sorry I haven't had time to follow this well.
I am against child abuse.
I am for the government doing things according to the constitution, etc including due process and not doing it anyway they please.
If Fox news says it, it will likely be twisted to the rights direction of view and possibly lying.
I am for what is right -- neither "left" or "right".
CNN is known as the Counterfeit News Network.
Take anything the MSM says with a shaker of salt.
For news I actually like the BBC
CNN and FOX are worthless
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080428/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat;_ylt=AqARJogplkv7oB73uhJHh45H2ocA
Now at least they are presenting some facts to go with the hype.... there are some numbers finally available.
That's what we've been waiting for. I heard the same report earlier today on the radio as well.
Frankly, that's exactly what I believed would be found. As time goes on and the DNA results come in I believe a past pattern will also emerge revealing that many girls/women have given birth at early (underage) ages.
I have been doing some more reading with regards to the early days of the LDS church, the founder Joseph Smith, and the splinter group FLDS and bluntly put, some things are disturbing.
I believe Bringem Young was in leadership there somewhere too.
Brigham Young became the leader after Joesph Smith was shot and died. Young organized the members move west from Illinois.
For those who may be interested here's a link (http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=3697.msg54460#msg54460) to the book corner with a book on the FLDS
I think it will come down to alot of "whos your daddy" and "funny he's mine too"
The family tree can become quite intertwined and hard to follow without a flow chart, what with brothers "marrying" the brothers wifes daughter, or "marrying" their own daughters, or "marrying" the daughter of their sister who is "married" to their father,......
I have a question, please do not stone me. ;)
I think we generally agree what has been alleged at this compound is wrong, I also think that we might generally agree how it was initially handled was wrong....But that is not the question.
I sit here and ponder the heavy weight of this situation. This lifestyle going on for over a century. Our government tried once before about 40+ years ago to stop it. My question is if these people have been living this lifestyle for over 100 years how can we blame only the men for this mess? This too is the only lifestyle they know too.
I do not want to make anyone mad, I am just trying to really think this through without emotion but with facts.
Quote from: StinkerBell on April 29, 2008, 06:43:47 PM
... how can we blame only the men for this mess? This too is the only lifestyle they know too.
First of all, if I sound angry, it is
not directed at anyone specific here. It's an anger directed at whatever has allowed this polygamy based abuse system to continue.
You're right that the men involved there today have been brought up to believe that their way of life, as taught to them, is fit and proper. They believe having a plurality of wives increases their likelihood of entering heaven. At the same time, according to their beliefs, those same men hold the power to invite their wives into heaven, or not. Their wives are taught that, the children are taught that. So, left to their own isolation the circle of abuses is self perpetuating. I can't believe that the majority of the population of the country could really favor such a situation.
Who else, or what else, can be blamed for their behavior? Looking at the population of the group it seems to me that the blame must be placed on the men. The women and children have no say in any matters. They are taught it is wrong to be disobedient. They are taught to do as they are told.
But yes, there is someone else to blame. It's all those people who are apathetic and say "it's none of my concern". It's all those people who place the intervention of any government agency as being a greater evil than the risk of child abuse. It's me, it's you, it's our neighbors and friends, and it's people people we don't even know. It's the fault of the liberal media who scream abuse of civil liberties instead of screaming about the possibility of abuse of the children and the women.
You are right again. The polygamist lifestyle has been going on since the time of Joseph Smith. The area in NW Arizona, known as the Arizona Strip, was settled in the 1910's by a group that became the present day FLDS. In 1953 the Arizona government sent well over 140 state police, county sheriffs, and national guardsmen into Short Creek, AZ (now named Colorado City). They arrested over a hundred polygamous men and women and took over 200 children into care. The governor said in a statement,
"Here has been a community entirely dedicated to the warped philosophy that a small handful of greedy and licentious men should have the right and the power to control the destiny of every human soul in the community. Here is a community - many of the women, sadly, right along with the men - unalterably dedicated to the wicked theory that every maturing girl should be forced into the bondage of multiple wifehood with men of all ages for the sole purpose of producing more children to become more chattels of this lawless enterprise." The raid made headlines across the country. The story made it to the front page of the NY Times. The LDS Church, through its newspaper the
Deseret News editorialized in favor of the action. To the dismay of the LDS Church and the Arizona authorities most of the press presented the polygamists in a favorable light, playing upon emotions with pictures of crying mothers and children. Where have I seen that before? The fundamentalists protested they were upstanding law abiding Mormons simply exercising their constitutionally protected freedoms. To make a long story short the governor lost the election the next year. Within a couple years all the FLDS men were back in Short Creek and unapologetically resumed living "The Principle".
Thanks to the ill-perceived public backlash the FLDS were left free to continue their practice of polygamy.
I could go on about another couple cases where men were convicted of child abuse stemming from events in polygamous enclaves, but I'm not going to. Suffice to say that for some reason the courts were lenient in their sentencing of the guilty. Somehow there has never been sufficient public outrage expressed for these cycles of abuse to be broken. The ACLU has even come to the defense of the FLDS in past cases advancing the polygamists claims of religious persecution.
Anyhow with the history of past attempts to break up the abuses perpetrated upon children for decades I'm surprised that the state of Texas had the guts to proceed at all.
BTW, the Constitution states,
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." It does not grant the right to break laws in the expression of one's religious beliefs.
Very well said, Don.
One other thing that I thought is strange.
From an AP story (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080429/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat)...
"Of the 463 children, 250 are girls and 213 are boys. Children 13 and younger are about evenly split — 197 girls and 196 boys — but there are only 17 boys aged 14 to 17 compared with the 53 girls in that age range."
{ED: that's a ratio of 24% boys / 76% girls}
Maybe it's simply an accident of birth, but the proportion of boys 14 to 17 years old is vastly different than the age distribution of all the children 0 to 17. It's also quite different from the usual nearly 51% boys / 49% girls split in the balance of the population.
??? Where are the missing boys? ???
One of the things bothering me with this whole issue, is that this group FLDS is seen as a splinter religious group. This not not a religious group but a cult. I really feel the need to draw this distinction.
Oh I agree wholeheartedly with that assessment. :) I referred to them as a cult in some prior posts and, perhaps too subtly to make any impression, used church when referring to FLDS and Church when referring to the mainline LDS Church.
As a cult I don't believe they can hide behind the protection of religious freedom, not that that is a valid abuse defense.
MD,
I generally agree with you, but my fear is that this group first is seen as a religion. I agree about the abuse that has happened there in Texas. I think I have lined out my thoughts and the issue of Free Will. But I highly suspect at some point in the future that someone somewhere will think that certain aspects of my religion practices are abusive. I am not talking about physical abuse or anything like what has happened at this compound in Texas. But a very liberal agenda to invalidate my religious practices/beliefs. This is my fear.
I believe I understand your fear. There are too many people with extra-liberal views. Too many of those would like to impose their values, or lack of values as I see it, on everyone else. To some it's a case of virtually anything goes.
Myself, I see huge differences between the type of indoctrination that goes on within a closed group like the FLDS and other cults and how my Catholic, Presbyterian, Jewish, Lutheran and LDS (just to pick some that come to mind) friends and acquaintances teach their beliefs to their children.
Thanks for the good discussion and allowing me t ask and work through some thoughts and concerns. It is very comforting to know that there is a sense of safety here to have a good discussion.
What is really disturbing is that of the girls removed I think there was 63 that were pregnant or have had a baby since their removal of the ages from 13-17. Not real sure on the exact #'s but I thought that was the figure they had given.
I don't like what I'm seeing in the news on this but it's good they are finding facts. I hope they go through with prosecutions on those guilty. I still don't agree with the way they handled things though.
Don would you be so good as to define a cult? Is there some membership number they must have to become a real church? From where I sit pretty much every church looks like a cult in some way or other.
I define a cult as a group that does not allow free will of choice of it members.
I like that description StinkerBell. Someone called the LDS church a cult earlier. While I can tell you from personal knowlege they are full of crap. I can also tell you I walked away with little or no problems from them.
Cult... a group using manipulative, deceptive or unethical techniques to recruit or control members. A group devoted to beliefs or practices that the surrounding culture or society considers to be outside the mainstream.
I don't have issues with the mainline LDS Church. I wouldn't subscribe to their form of religion, but that's simply my personal choice. I don't have any more issue with them than most others.
I don't care who ya are. That there's funny.
Scroll to the bottom of the page and click on "Plural Girl Blues"
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4629743
rofl rofl ....13 pages of honey'do's....
Someone suggested these women would be great candidates for an extreme makeover TV show. ;D
Women that have had a makeover scare me. [scared]
It's kind of like they are trying to hide something. [slap]
I like 'em just the way they are. :) (Most of the time.) rofl
You thought this story was over? The plot thickens.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24777095/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24777095/)
Quote from: benevolance on April 22, 2008, 11:00:45 AM
Glenn it is stuff like that, which scares me truly...It has always been my dream to live out in the woods away from people... But no matter what you do they will come for you it seems...
Luckily for me I have nothing to do with guns....It was stupid for the guy to sell an illegal gun to someone he did not personally know
Actually benevolance, it was NOT illegal. He was found not guilty. There are several ways to measure a barrel.
Now that I said that, I've met Randy Weaver several times. He sure isn't one of my heros.
Man....those women are kinda .......UGLY,
(http://img.breitbart.com/images/2008/5/22/D90QRO280/D90QRO280.jpg)
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D90QRO280&show_article=1
Court rues that CPS had no right to take children from their families.
Quote from: peternap on May 22, 2008, 01:53:13 PM
..., it was NOT illegal. He was found not guilty. There are several ways to measure a barrel.
Now that I said that, I've met Randy Weaver several times. He sure isn't one of my heros.
I didn't realize he was found not guilty. So I take back my comment about the first stupid thing he did.
QuoteMan....those women are kinda .......UGLY
Who knows, Peter --- seems that under that plain Jane facade lurks a couple of anything goes wildcats. [crz]
That ought to count for something. ::)
Quote from: MountainDon on May 22, 2008, 03:02:19 PM
Quote from: peternap on May 22, 2008, 01:53:13 PM
..., it was NOT illegal. He was found not guilty. There are several ways to measure a barrel.
Now that I said that, I've met Randy Weaver several times. He sure isn't one of my heros.
I didn't realize he was found not guilty. So I take back my comment about the first stupid thing he did.
He did a lot of stupid things Don. While it would be nice to hold him up as a patriot and the government as the force of dark......The simple fact is, there weren't any good guys on Ruby Ridge.
He had as much to do with the killing of his son and wife as the FEDS did. Meeting him was not the high point of my life.
Thanks for that info, Peter. I appreciate it. In some circles he has attained folk hero status. I always thought he was plain stupid. And the government was stupid and heavy handed as well.
It's very easy to acheive the status of "Folk Hero" in some circles Don
His first black mark in my book is his association with white supremacists. I'm certainly no paragon of virtue but contrary to the movie image, Southern White People generally treat Southern Black People with respect and vice versa. There is certainly a barrier, but a respectful barrier. While I know only one Black Man that I consider a friend, I certainly don't consider all others animals to be tormented and humiliated. I know a few KKK members and I dislike them much more than most black folks. I guess you could say I'm an honest raciest.
The second and worst flaw is that after being roped in by the ATF, instead of facing it like a man, he went home knowing full well they'd come after him. You don't endanger your family....period.
Third, he taught his son to hate. There's plenty of time to learn that for yourself. No need to start life fearing everyone and everything around and to hate anyone who disagrees with you. When his son should have been thinking about how to talk to the girl next to him, he was instead, learning to goose step.
Last, after his son and wife were killed, he went on the gun show circuit, peddling his book and actually making a living off of their deaths. He was even cocky about it. The times he came over to chat, my impression was that he was a jerk.
My opinion of the Government agents is just as bad. Murderers.......Like I said, no good guys up there.
I didn't know much of the story. Some of each side presented here... mostly favoring the Weavers.
http://www.crimelibrary.com/gangsters_outlaws/cops_others/randy_weaver/1.html
-f-
That's a pretty accurate account as I understand it NM.
They do paint Weaver as being naive and uneducated in the legal system. Most of that came from Spence, whom is a masterful lawyer. (I have all his books).
Weaver wasn't naive though. He was actually a pretty sharp veteran.
Peter, I agree with your 5 point assessment.
Save me some time, Peter, what's the lawyer Spence's first name? Recommend any one of his books?
So - according to this and Stink's link above- the Court has investigated CPS claims and found that in several cases they were lying. That's the little power trippers for you. Even called a 27 year old an underage girl.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24777095
They screwed up by not going in there with tanks and machine guns -- to many women and children left alive so the true story is getting out.
I don't agree with the lifestyle but have seen too many small government goons on power trips to agree with them. They just got lazy so thought they would just take them all rather than do a real investigation. What they need is something like a radar gun so they could just determine the guilty ones from the front seat of their car while eating donuts and having a cup of coffee.
Note that I know some very good retired police who I consider friends so am not against all of them. Heck -- I even know a few working ones who aren't too bad.
Quote from: MountainDon on May 22, 2008, 11:21:54 PM
Peter, I agree with your 5 point assessment.
Save me some time, Peter, what's the lawyer Spence's first name? Recommend any one of his books?
It's Gerry Spence.
Try this book first:
From Freedom to Slavery: The Rebirth of Tyranny in America
The state has appealed to the Texas Supreme Court. From what I've been reading their case is full of holes and lacks any real proof of wrong doing. Another case of of spin to win it seems. The MSM was more than happy to help out with the spin and now seem just as happy to make the state look stupid.
I haven't been keeping up with it all that well Scott, but it appears that the judge only said they did not have probable cause to take the kids without a court order. He didn't order the kids be returned just yet. My guess is that the Supreme court will agree with him and kick it back to a lower court for a case by case hearing. If the kids stay in state custody during this, it could be years and the kids have reached the age of majority before it is adjudicated.
CPS lost. The kids are going home. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24878696/?GT1=43001 (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24878696/?GT1=43001)
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