Is there a publication out there or any information about where a water heater can be legally placed under current code? Can it be upstairs over the bath in the knee walls? I have a 1/2 bath upstairs, by the way. Can it be on a shelf and hung sideways?
Quote from: CREATIVE1 on February 24, 2008, 10:32:20 AM
#1: Is there a publication out there or any information about where a water heater can be legally placed under current code?
#2: Can it be upstairs over the bath in the knee walls?
#3: Can it be on a shelf and hung sideways?
#1: More than likely.
Is this water heater , electric , gas ? Is it a instant hot water heater type unit , or a bulk storgae type unit? Weight can be a consideration in all this.
#2: Yes IF it's electric and isn't a large capasity unit.
#3 Yes it can be ona shelf , again weight is a factor .
No it can NOT be sideways , that would effect the "pop off" Valve operation.
So IF it's elecrtic many factors
wiil not effect it ,
if it's gas it need venting , combustion air , , so what type is it?
Since we have the cheapest power in the country, it's electric.
Quote from: CREATIVE1 on February 24, 2008, 10:48:43 AM
Since we have the cheapest power in the country, it's electric.
There are no true codes about where a electric W/H can go , except for earthquake strapping , which may or may not be a player where you live. So all but "sideways" of you options could work , depending on weight and that shelf you mentioned.
Here is my $.02 worth. I figured the placement on where my draws would be made from. I tried to place it closest to where it would be used. In multiple locations I went with a happy medium between the two or the one used most. This will help in draw down to the facets not being that long and allowing the water to run for extended periods just for it to get hot. Although there is insulation wrap to help this it is only part of the solution with placement the other.
I've placed it as close as possible to the main bathroom, offset a little to be closer to the kitchen sink. The upstairs half bath is further, but that's OK.
As I am building a house too, I have given this issue some thought in the past, and even more thought after reading this post.
It seems to me, the issue becomes, do you want to minimize water waste as much as possible or have the shortest wait to get hot water into the shower?
I'm kinda thinking out loud here, so don't take any of this as gospel. Seems to me, in the laundry room and the dishwasher you don't need hot water to arrive particularly quick. Any cold or cooler water that arrives before the hot stays in the appliance and gets used in the cycle anyway; ie not wasted. So, hot water arriving 30 seconds faster won't really affect the machines operation.
For the bathroom shower, the same isn't true. Cold water arriving before it warms up just goes down the drain for a 100% waste. Even though it's true that ALL the water from the shower goes down the drain, at least the hot portion gets "used" before becoming waste. Now, if you primarily take tub baths instead of showers, then the tub becomes just like the washer and dishwasher; where cold/cooler water isn't necessarily wasted waiting on the hot to arrive.
Now, as for the kitchen sink. If we draw water into the sink, then a little cold/cooler water arriving before the hot won't matter, but if we like to "run" the hot water while washing stuff, then it does become like the shower.
So, I guess for me, since I like hot showers (not tub baths) then my hot water heater needs to be located closest to the bathroom shower. That I will have two bathrooms in my house, and I expect the girlfriend to claim one bathroom and I the other, then the hot water heater needs to be located halfway between the two showers. It just happens to be coincidental (but not particularly important) that the kitchen and utility room are fairly close to the second bathroom. Now, factoring in that at least half the time the girlfriend takes a tub bath, I'll move the hot water heater a little closer to the master bath shower. Now, if she claims the master bathroom and I am forced into the guest bath (a much more likely scenario) then I'll move the hot water heater closer to the guest bath.
Thanks guys for helping me finalize the location of my hot water heater.
P.S. I'm building over a pretty large crawlspace, so I have room to put the hot water heater anywhere I want.
Sounds like you've got a good plan. Just a little tidbit, the kitchen sink is normaly the most used faucet in the house.
I'm interpreting this discussion to be about where to place an electrically powered traditional tank type heater.
The IRC simply addresses the water heater situation by stating installation must be to manufacturers specifications. It does mention that fuel burning (non-electric) systems must isolate the unit from sleeping areas unless they are direct vented including combustion air.
n74tg makes some good points regarding laundry vs. shower uses.
Q: Is the main point to eliminate, as much as possible, the waste of water down the drain while waiting for the warm/hot water? Or is the main point one of convenience, having hot water available nearly instantly?
May I ask why not a tankless heater or perhaps two smaller ones if there's a long run in any one direction?
One thing that is being done in my local area is the installation of hot water circulating pump(s) with a third pipe that returns water to the hot water storage tank. (cold, hot and return) The pipes are insulated as well. There is a small pump in the system and a temperature sensor at the furthest point of use. The sensor is adjustable to cut off the pump when a preset temperature is reached at the point of use. Sometimes two sensors if there are two distinct directions or loops. The pumps are usually also equipped with a timer that will only let the pump run between certain hours. The combination of the pump and control devices keeps warm/hot water ready for use at the faucets at the most likely to be used times of day.
I've seen a variation on this with a push button switch at the point of use. Pressing the button kicks the pump on and within seconds warm water/hot is available for use. This system uses a higher volume pump than the previously mentioned system.
These can also be retrofitted to older homes.The major difference in a retrofit is the absence of the third water line. Water is recirculated back to the hot water tank via the cold line. It does warm the water in the cold line, so that can be counted as a small drawback. Our local water company offers homeowners a $100 credit on the water bill if such a system is installed. And it can be done by the homeowner; no need for a plumber who would end up with the rebate in his pocket.
Your post on water circulating pumps is interesting. Is there any online source you know of for more information?
As to my main concerns with a plumbing system--simplicity, economy, and yes, hot water arriving when needed. I've been so busy just trying to come up with a code-compliant plan that I haven't thought about these details, and don't want to wait too long as it may influence our design. So again, countryplans to the rescue.
Our present house is set up with the hot water heater on the first floor under the big soaking tub on the second, the kitchen sink about 25 feet away, and the small bathroom on the third floor another ten feet beyond. This is pretty much what I've ended up doing in the Victoria, but with smaller distances in a smaller house.
In Florida I'm still using an 80 gallon solar water heater that used to be part of an old solar water heating system (won it at the state fair!!)about 25 years ago. It's on a timer and doesn't seem to use much electricity. My energy use is much lower than most people I know, except for those who've spent thousands in special equipment.
I looked at the tankless option, but the upfront cost seems a bit much and it may be harder to install. We did our own plumbing in our current house, not exactly fun but saved major bucks.
I like to save energy, but I also look at how long it takes to recoup costs. And the do-it-yourself part is important too.
I retrofitted one of these...
http://www.wattspremier.com/watts/showprod.cfm?&DID=15&CATID=1&ObjectGroup_ID=22%22
I bought it from HD
http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&productId=100426993
who also sell
http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&productId=100037011&N=10000003+90087+502123+3685&marketID=87&locStoreNum=3504
For our situation I chose the Watts because it was a little less work... the Autocirc mounts under the sink and needs a power outlet that would have had to be fished through a wall. I didn't want to deal with doing that. The Watts mounts by the hot water tank where there was a ready unused receptacle.
These are other bookmarks I have, not necessarily an endorsement on any of them. Some are made for new installations.
http://www.grundfos.com/Web/HomeUs.nsf/Webopslag/PAVA-53MKRN
http://www.redytemp.com/
http://www.gothotwater.com/
http://www.lainginc.com/howhot.htm
On a different, but still water related topic...
For anyone who has concerns about plumbing leaks causing damage while nobody's home, not paying attention or asleep, we have the FloLogic, Automatic Water Shutoff System. FloLogic turns off the house water supply if preset parameters are exceeded.
http://www.flologic.com/Automatic-Water-Shutoff-System.html
Here's another company's approach to the problem of unattended leaks; WaterCop.
http://www.absoluteautomation.com/water_alarms/index.html
I am at the point of choosing a water heater for my house now. My brother asked me to look into the "Marathon Water heater". It is supposed to be very energy efficient, and has a life time warrantee. Of course, it comes with a larger price tag.
I called my local EMC (electric company) as they carry this brand, and the 50 gallon come in two sizes...I will need the Low Boy as it will be under the upstairs roof in the angled part, and the price was $686.00. The standard height one, whose box measures 5 feet, 8 inches, was priced at $647.00. While these may sound a bit high, with the "guaranteed for life" surpassing the 5 to 8 year expectancy of normal ones sounds reasonable.
As far as placement of the water heater, mine will be upstairs on the opposite side of the wall from one bathroom and upstairs from the other. When waiting for hot water, I have, for many years, filled a one gallon pitcher kept forever handy. It is used for anything I need cold water for next...dog bowls, coffee pot, mixing with hot to get warm water....etc. Just a thought.
Does anyone have any experience with the Marathon water heater?
Christina
As I recall there was mention of the Marathon heater by someone some time ago... year or so ago. So I searched the name
http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=2728.msg27798#msg27798
http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=1274.msg10802#msg10802
http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=1856.msg17475#msg17475
I would think it could be an excellent buy IF you plan to stay there forever. Regular tank heatrs don't all go out in 5 to 8 years. Our original tank, a top line GE lasted 15 years before I replaced it on general age principles.
Not everyone would be so dedicated with that pitcher, though.
Quote from: MountainDon on February 24, 2008, 10:37:23 PM
On a different, but still water related topic...
For anyone who has concerns about plumbing leaks causing damage while nobody's home, not paying attention or asleep, we have the FloLogic, Automatic Water Shutoff System. FloLogic turns off the house water supply if preset parameters are exceeded.
http://www.flologic.com/Automatic-Water-Shutoff-System.html
Here's another company's approach to the problem of unattended leaks; WaterCop.
http://www.absoluteautomation.com/water_alarms/index.html
A friend call today: the main line to her waterheater blew out while she out of town. It was under the stairs on the main floor and flooded the basement apartment,the whole houses furnace system and her cellar. The back wall of her cellar needs replaced now because it forced open a crack that had been there for a while. The water company said she used over 39000 gallons in 10 days. Her plumber recommends putting the water heater in the basement and the furnace under the stairs now but said nothing of the auto shut off. She is calling him back today.
The plumbers (2) that I spoke to around here a few years back didn't know about them either. They're a fairly specialized item. Probably never needed by most folks. But as you related to us.... sometimes would be a godsend.
Depends... ;D