I'm not sure of the exact details but it looks like a man who felt his property rights where being violated by city officals opened fire at a city council meeting killing 5 people. Glen this sounds right up your alley. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23059784 (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23059784)
I read that to Glenn last night - I guess people are getting frustrated... [noidea' Only problem with that is more fuel for them to take away the guns.... >:(
Scott, from what I gather, he had a construction equipment company and it looks like the ordnance limited him to the number of items he could have. He got 150 tickets.
He was an outspoken regular at the town council meetings and not especially nice to the members. They charged him with disorderly conduct at least once.
He sued the Town for violation of his free speech rights and lost.
It seems he just snapped,
While I couldn't hold him as an example of how to win an argument, I don't think I'll shed many tears for the town employees he shot. Honestly, I'm suprised that doesn't happen more often.
QuoteOnly problem with that is more fuel for them to take away the guns....
That will be a dark and I suspect bloody day in American history.
QuoteWhile I couldn't hold him as an example of how to win an argument, I don't think I'll shed many tears for the town employees he shot.
I'd say he won the argument, cost him his life though. High price to pay for your rights.
I have seen many people right on the edge as those smug bastards sit behind the city or county supervisors desk in their cute little suits looking like something out of a Makeover Show, and pretend there's nothing they can do but delay the issues a little longer and make a few more reasons why the person cannot improve the community and make something off of their hard labor.
Good start. Seems more cleaning needs to be done. Too bad the guy lost his life. The people in power will never understand why anyone could want to hurt them. They are the center of the universe.
"My Brother Went to War with the Gov't" http://www.kmov.com/topstories/stories/kmov_localnews_080207_geraldthornton.9e51d0ab.html
Gunman's relative: "My brother went to war"
11:01 PM CST on Thursday, February 7, 2008
(KMOV) – The brother of the man who opened fire at the Kirkwood City Hall on Thursday evening tells News 4 that his brother was striking back at government officials that had been giving him trouble. there's also a video at the link
I'm going to put my head on the chopping block. [crz]
First of all though, we may not have all the pertinent details about the history of the situation.
The article mentions the guy had a construction or paving business, named Cookco Construction. Google the name and city and the address comes up. Google Earth the address and city and it comes up showing a well treed residential neighborhood. It looks very suburban, not rural. It doesn't even appear to be a commercial area.
The article states he had received 150 tickets for parking his commercial vehicles in the neighborhood. My neighborhood has had ordinances against parking commercial vehicles on the neighborhood residential streets since the early 80's. I believe most neighborhoods that look like his, or mine, from the air also would. My neighborhood, as many others might, will overlook the street parking of smaller sized commercial vehicles, like up to 1 ton trucks, especially if the neighbors do not complain. But if a neighbor complains, look out. Larger vehicles such as dump trucks, low bed trailers for hauling paving equipment, loaders, etc. are not permitted to be overnight street parked at all. And I think that is correct for most residential areas.
There are areas in my city with looser rules regarding commercial vehicles. This is one of the reasons for zoning departments. Most people would be quite comfortable knowing that no one on their street is going to move in and start parking an 18 wheeler in the front street with regularity. YMMV.
For years I worked under the local radar as far as having a business run out of my home. I had a 1 ton utility body truck I frequently parked on the street. I never had any complaints, but I tried to think of what others around me would like or put up with. Getting to know them and helping them with stuff probably helped me circumvent some of the rules.
We live in a society with rules. Some I agree with, many irk me to no end. However, no matter what, there's no place for gunning down people over parking tickets.
That is not totally how I see the issue. This is just one incident out of thousands of daily abuses of power by government.
There is a farm here about 10 miles out of town. They want to make a horse dude ranch out of it- have been jumping through hoops for a couple years and want to put in cabins to get a return on their investment and bring income into the community.
The lady has been nearly in tears talking to the building dept. who is obviously pulling a power trip on her. She was recently at the Co. Supervisors with more of the same games. It is causing her group -family? great monetary losses and they will bend over backward to do what they need to do to get it right.
Some cases they may not deserve it but I can easily see where people could be pushed over the line.
I offered to do a well in my old town that I could have made meet specs for $40000, but the idiots in charge felt it was necessary to let the town get ripped for around $400,000 because it was a newer method. It had a great problem meeting the quality specs also. Most of the leaders are their because they want power -- not because they are smart enough to lead. I guess the job may then have it's dangers if they want to be jerks.
I see both points made by Glenn and MtnDon.
The question for me is this. The tickets the man received, was that for him parking on his property or parking on city property. I do agree we need to have rules. If he was being cited for being on his own property I would be more compassionate about his issue, but if this was an issue about public parking I am not going to have the same compassion and his actions would be unwarranted IMO.
Just some more unwarranted behavior towards a citizen, who was assaulted & called 911, by "public servants" caution, the video may disturb you...
http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/270.html
wonder how her husband feels about things right now... let alone the trauma that the victim rec'd at the hands of police officers... disgusting >:(
One thing at a time...
Quote from: StinkerBell on February 08, 2008, 06:36:21 PM
The tickets the man received, was that for him parking on his property or parking on city property.
We don't have those facts. >:( What I pick up from what I read
"for parking his commercial vehicles in the neighborhood" is that the vehicles (plural) were parked on the public streets, not on his property. If that was/is the case, then I don't think he had a legal leg to stand on against the local government. OMMV
As far as parking such vehicles on your personal suburban property, there may be ordinances restricting that. Before moving in here we checked out the neighborhood restrictions and covenants. There was specific prohibition against vehicles above a certain weight... aimed at larger dump trucks, 18 wheel tractors, etc. It was fine with us. If I'd had a larger truck, there were, and still are areas where they would not have been a problem.
Now, that brings me to one local issue that I
do have a problem with. They are trying to change the rules in one of those local areas where tractor trailers were allowed. The area is getting more and more built up and somebody came up with the idea that the trucks were an eyesore. Well, pardon me, but the trucks were there first. There has been discussion and now maybe the city will let the trucks stay IF they are garaged (trailer and all)! I say if the neighbors don't like the trucks let them chip in and pay for the necessary garages. Otherwise shut the heck up!
Holy crap! I can't even believe what I am reading here. He KILLED people...over parking. No way whatsoever can that be justified imho. Glad he died and may his soul never rest in peace (unless he really did snap and was unable to tell that this was wrong, then may he rest in peace). Whether the officials were right or not-there is no justification to take lives for this, end of story in my book.
Wow that police video is very disgusting. Hope they all lose their jobs and lose their life savings for that crap (nope not gunned down for it either). I've always said there is a very fine line between cops and criminals. btw anyone else see the irony...stark naked in Stark county jail...perhaps they took it too literally? ok, ok bad one, can't help it but that's what came to mind.
Daddymem,
I understand your position too.
I think though I could make a case for a person who just loses it. Although we do not have facts here I will make a couple of assumptions.
If this man has been living at his home with his work trucks on his property and was doing this for years and then an ordinance went through I could understand his frustration. Lets take that frustration up a notch. What if this man felt that not only was his land at risk but his lively hood to provide for his family? Some people just can not start up again in a new trade or new job. The old expression can't teach a dog new trick comes to mind. Anyways.... Right now in my mind I see it like I explained. A person who feels so threatened can just lose it. You push a person to hard to far something is going to snap, especially if they feel that their security is being threatened. I think and agree that life itself holds so much value, but what about this man who may have thought that his life was so threatened and being taken away?
I wish I had more facts. Easier to make a decision. He can be a nut. He could have been pushed to hard....who knows...But I do allow for the possibility at this point that this man felt that his life was being threatened.....
I hope I made sense and you aint so afraid of moi!
Daddymem......this is a difficult issue to deal with. First, I agree with Don to a LARGE extent. If you live in crowded areas, you need rules. My burb house is an example of my being here first and the yuppies moved to the country. I have 10 acres, they have 1/4. They want rules...suits me but don't ask me to abide by them.
Shooting people over parking. On the surface it seems unthinkable. But lets play what if. What if he was there first and the rules were cramping his business so badly, he couldn't earn a living, feed his family, pay his bills. That puts him between the proverbial "Rock and a hard place". I can see him snapping and I have a lot of trouble working up any sympathy for Government Officials that get caught in the fallout.
I suppose I really am hardened, but I've learned that if you torment anything long enough, it just may kill you.
One very true rule in this world is that Violence is the Ultimate Argument. When you've tried everything else, a punch in the mouth is worth a thousand words. Not very PC, but still a solid fact. It may well be a short lived victory such as this case.
Unfortunately, a side effect of our quest to be ......civilized, is that people no longer walk up to the Mayor and clean his clock. They let it fester until they go over the edge and kill him. We might want to question the psychologists that cause the problem, about how humans are supposed to deal with anger and desperation.
Sorry, threatening livelihood (and from what I have read so far not the case by a long shot) still does not justify killing. Yes he got pushed and it sounds like he snapped. Doesn't justify his reaction and no way they deserved death for whatever they did to push him over the edge. I don't see anything difficult on this at all. I can empathize with his situation but have zero sympathy with his reaction. A punch in the nose and death are two entirely different countries. If he did "lose it" and reality slipped I hope he does rest in peace but still no way those that died deserved it. He killed PEOPLE, not government officials, PEOPLE, wives, husbands, fathers, mothers, brothers, sisters, children, PEOPLE.
Don't worry, not scared of you stink.
Exactly Daddymem. The source of his frustration was not serious enough to warrant killing anyone, not an ordinary joe, no government official, no bitchy bossy neighbor, whatever.
If he "snapped" that does not absolve him of the seriousness of what he did. In a way it is too bad he's dead, and in other ways, no, it's not too bad.
darn, I really try to scare people too.
I have a strawman question.....(yes I might be evil, jury is still out)
What if China invades us? They want to take our land and change our way of life?
Please understand, I do not know all the facts of the case. I am just curious where the threshold is.
Oh and YES, that Stark County Sheriff situation is absolutely inexcusable. Heads should roll, jobs be lost, bank accounts emptied for that.
It's a totally different matter.
If China invades us we bomb the $hit out of them to our best ability.
I don't think that's a double standard. It's different thing. Vandals at the border!!
Why is it different? are they not , mother, fathers, brothers and sisters?
The answer I am seeking is where is the threshold for someone to protect or feel so threatened they respond?
Oh yes, if you want to beat me up later. I understand.
If we understand the Missouri situation...
One man getting a bunch of parking violation tickets.
VS.
A foreign power invading the country of the USA, wanting to take all our land and change our way of life for all 300,000,000 million (illegals included) of us.
I don't think I need to say anymore. The situations are not comparable.
I'm sure we could go back and forth over scenarios and eventually figure out where the threshold is (probably figure out that the threshold differs wildly between people even). Barring that I know one thing. Tickets for not following the rules of the location you live or do business in is on one side of the threshold and a country invading another is on the other side of that threshold and there is a lot of distance between them. And another thing I know is I have not the will, the patience, nor the time to seek that threshold but I am confident I would know it if I ran into it.
Yes...with your comparison I agree.
BUT
What I am asking is where is the threshold? Ruby Ridge? When is it our Right to protect our land and family and way of life?
What is that finite moment when we can do that?
Quote from: MountainDon on February 08, 2008, 10:15:16 PM
If we understand the Missouri situation...
One man getting a bunch of parking violation tickets.
VS.
A foreign power invading the country of the USA, wanting to take all our land and change our way of life for all 300,000,000 million (illegals included) of us.
I don't think I need to say anymore. The situations are not comparable.
So you are saying that the people of Iraq have the right to destroy our military because we are daily invading their houses, killing their husbands, wives, daughters, sons, uncles , aunts, children and babies?
I guess you are right and I can see where this would stress them to the breaking point.
It looks like the media is doctoring this story because when I first heard it the original fight was over building code enforcment and the storage of building materials on his property which he felt where unfair. Second he was upset because they would not hear him when he tried to complain about feeling harassed. Hard to make a judgment without all the facts but I find it hard to belive he would go postal if he was the one in the wrong. He had to know he would not have a life afterwords. We may never know what really happened. Oh and China has been invading us for a while incase no one noticed.
China -- they're the new neighbors. :)
Didn't we let them take over Panama, and we sold them the port of Long Beach, CA.
...and it is very common lately for the stories to get modified to make the government look like innocent victims. Tons of that in Katrina.
Quote from: glenn kangiser on February 08, 2008, 10:22:51 PM
So you are saying that the people of Iraq have the right to destroy our military because we are daily invading their houses, killing their husbands, wives, daughters, sons, uncles , aunts, children and babies?
Would you say that to be true?
Quote from: ScottA on February 08, 2008, 11:11:56 PM
I find it hard to believe he would go postal if he was the one in the wrong. He had to know he would not have a life afterwards. We may never know what really happened.
I don't know about that Scott. He may not have believed he was in the wrong, even if he really was. "Fruitcakes", nutcases, paranoids, can and do lose touch with reality. If you tell yourself something is "true" enough times, you can begin to believe yourself even though it is patently false.
Then there's the "Suicide by Police" routine. Who knows what weird things go on inside a tormented mind. That can be a convenient way (to a tortured mind) out, without actually turning the gun on oneself and pulling the trigger. Coward. The subconscious is a wonderfully twisted place.
As for, the first report being different from later reports... just because later reports vary from the initial reports does not always mean there is a government cover up underway. It's not uncommon for the first "breaking news" reports to be anywheres from a little off base and incomplete to way off base. Just like it is not uncommon for eye witnesses to an event to disagree on details such as the perpetrator having a mustache vs. a goatee. The TV news media is especially bad. They are always in a rush to be first, to have an exclusive, and sometimes they are overzealous in reporting what they then believe are the facts as compared to what are really the facts.
The truth may have died with the gunman. Maybe that's how he wanted it. We will never know what was running through his mind.
Quote from: MountainDon on February 09, 2008, 02:26:33 AM
Quote from: glenn kangiser on February 08, 2008, 10:22:51 PM
So you are saying that the people of Iraq have the right to destroy our military because we are daily invading their houses, killing their husbands, wives, daughters, sons, uncles , aunts, children and babies?
Would you say that to be true?
It follows the same logic, and I am not saying the logic is wrong.
It seems if we should kill Chinese if they invaded us and our homes, that Iraqi's should kill us for invading their homes.
Could you imagine the outrage if the Chinese came through our towns kicking doors in, harassing and killing our families and looking for our citizens or others who had come to help protect our lives and property (I think they would be called insurgents). I think you would rightly agree that I should try to take out all I could. The case in Iraq, while reversed, is the same.
It is a war started under false pretenses, for oil, power, control of the area and therefore it's resources.
Imagine being an Iraqi.
Riverbend's family finally had to leave Baghdad. Her thoughts from Syria.
QuoteThat is Iraq right now. The Americans have done a fine job of working to break it apart. This last year has nearly everyone convinced that that was the plan right from the start. There were too many blunders for them to actually have been, simply, blunders. The 'mistakes' were too catastrophic. The people the Bush administration chose to support and promote were openly and publicly terrible- from the conman and embezzler Chalabi, to the terrorist Jaffari, to the militia man Maliki. The decisions, like disbanding the Iraqi army, abolishing the original constitution, and allowing militias to take over Iraqi security were too damaging to be anything but intentional.
The question now is, but why? I really have been asking myself that these last few days. What does America possibly gain by damaging Iraq to this extent? I'm certain only raving idiots still believe this war and occupation were about WMD or an actual fear of Saddam.
Al Qaeda? That's laughable. Bush has effectively created more terrorists in Iraq these last 4 years than Osama could have created in 10 different terrorist camps in the distant hills of Afghanistan. Our children now play games of 'sniper' and 'jihadi', pretending that one hit an American soldier between the eyes and this one overturned a Humvee.
This last year especially has been a turning point. Nearly every Iraqi has lost so much. So much. There's no way to describe the loss we've experienced with this war and occupation. There are no words to relay the feelings that come with the knowledge that daily almost 40 corpses are found in different states of decay and mutilation. There is no compensation for the dense, black cloud of fear that hangs over the head of every Iraqi. Fear of things so out of ones hands, it borders on the ridiculous- like whether your name is 'too Sunni' or 'too Shia'. Fear of the larger things- like the Americans in the tank, the police patrolling your area in black bandanas and green banners, and the Iraqi soldiers wearing black masks at the checkpoint.
Again, I can't help but ask myself why this was all done? What was the point of breaking Iraq so that it was beyond repair? Iran seems to be the only gainer. Their presence in Iraq is so well-established, publicly criticizing a cleric or ayatollah verges on suicide. Has the situation gone so beyond America that it is now irretrievable? Or was this a part of the plan all along? My head aches just posing the questions.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/10/13/MNG39F7MNI1.DTL Home Invasion- intimidation
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0621-07.htm Murder --
Thousands more -
Or maybe they should thank us for making them free.
So, in the Missouri case, depending on circumstances, yes-- I can understand how the man may have felt about authority figures who personally touched his life. The truth? -- not commonly fully available in the American news.