Last week I made a major purchace at home depot and they overcharged me. I didn't notice the error until the girl handed me the recipt so it had already been charged to my card. She refunded my card and re-charged the correct amount. Today I noticed that the bank had re arranged the transactions so my account got overdrawn (by less than $10) and hit me with an overdraft fee ($25) which they refuse to refund. Beware
Scott... let me guess... Bancfirst? We had that problem with our bank in OK a few times. They were really bad about holding deposits but taking out withdrawals immediately, and messing things up royally. Had to watch them like hawks and be really careful to check everything.
Sorry to hear that Scott. I guess you're talking about a debit card and checking account??
The USUAL method used by MOST, if not all, banks when running debits through a bank account (check, debit card or ATM transaction... ATM transactions can have a different wrinkle or two of their own) is to put the transactions in order from the largest to the smallest dollar amount received that day, not the order that you made the purchases, not the order they might have been received by the bank.
NOTE: Deposits are credited to the account first, with some exceptions. Go read THIS[/color] (http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/chk/19991102.asp) and you will know all about deposits and the rules that apply to availability of funds. It's really important to know when your money really becomes your money to spend. HINT: the larger the amount the longer it may take to be "yours". And a direct deposit paycheck is 'all yours' faster than depositing a paper check. NO there is no law that says paychecks must be honored in full right away. Companies have been know to issue NSF checks.
Unfortunately credits made back to an account using a debit card more often than not do not post to the account as quickly as the actual purchase debit does. The very large bank I used to work for would work with a customer (in good standing) and credit fees when we were able to see a debit, credit, another debit occurrence like what you described. However, it was not automatic. The customer had to notice and request a refund of fees in a timely manner. Timely manner usually means within that statement cycle, before the next one is printed.
Another thing to be aware of is how the 'hold system' operates. This may vary from bank to bank, but there is a usual method. What do I mean by 'hold'? Example; if you use your debit card at a gas pump, the card is first scanned and the gas station system calls your bank and does a test, places a hold, on a certain amount of money. This varies from gas station to gas station; it's set by the vendor not the bank. It used to be that the amount 'held' was only a dollar... just enough to make sure the account was active. In the last couple of years the amount has been frequently raised to $50 or even $100. Okay. Then you pump the gas. Let's say you have a total sale of $60 and the amount 'held' was $50. At the end of the day, all your debits will be totaled and subtracted from the balance in descending order. IF that station is on the ball and does the FINAL processing in a timely manner the actual $60 amount gets subtracted from your account. However, IF the station is slow or if they bundle many transactions and submit them in bulk (to save them processing fees) thru their bank periodically through the day your purchase may miss your banks processing time. In that case the $50 on 'hold' is kept as a 'held' amount by your bank and at the end of that day your balance will show $10 too much. (The bank doesn't yet know that you spent $60, not the $50). So if you check your balance, it's incorrect... then if you spend that $10 that's not really there, you could overdraw your account. No bank will cover you for that.
The holds are usually programmed to drop off the account after 3 days if no final sale amount is sent through. I have seen cases where a sloppy vendor has sent the purchase amount through months after the purchase date and cause the account to overdraw. No bank will cover you on that either.
On the other hand IF the gas pump 'hold' was for $100 and the purchase was only $60, you could end up with $40 too much being held for a day or so. That could cause you to have a purchase denied for not having sufficient funds in the account. That sort of thing can usually be fixed, but it takes a phone call.
Another problem can arise when using a debit or credit card for online or telephone purchases. Most often you must enter your card number after the purchase items are all listed, but before clicking the final confirmation button. After the card number has been entered it is usual for the vendors system to place a hold on the dollar amount of the sale. They want to be assured that your account is valid and you have the money/credit to cover your purchase. They get an authorization for the amount. When you click the final okay everything gets recorded, they get the money, you get the goods shipped, and everything should be fine. BUT, if you do not complete the transaction, that amount may remain on 'hold' until the end of the business day. You know you didn't spend the money but the computer doesn't yet know it. If you are running your account close to the edge and then go and actually try to complete a sale with another vendor you might run into the situation where your request is denied. Once again a phone call can usually sometimes resolve the issue, but it will take time and hassle. But that's the way the system works.
The hold system is not new nor unique to any one bank. Most of the time you don't know it's even happening, unless your account runs too close to or over the limit. It does pay to know the rules you're playing under. But virtually nobody I know ever read them all. The print is too small and there's too much of it. I've read it (for my bank) but that's because I worked there and had to know them.
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A note: If you ask for a fee refund and are refused it MIGHT help to ask for a supervisor. It probably won't, but here's why I suggest it. Bank telephone customer service reps (and live tellers as well) have limits, usually monthly, to the total amounts of refunds they are 'allowed' to give out. There'll be a suggested maximum amount per transaction, per customer, per month. IF the service rep goes over that amount they might lose 'points' in the automated grading system. It's a fair system and it isn't. If there were no limts too many service reps would give away too many refunds for unsound reasons. They'd give them out because it was easier, because they got yelled at less. Trust me, I tried to be very objective in my work. Most fees that people get charged are their own darn fault. Most. Not all. In a case like Scott's I'd give the customer the fee refund. And I would document why. There's a comment system that can be used and should be used by reps, but are not always. So where is this rambling going?... Ask for the supervisor. IF you have a solid legitimate case the supervisor may give the refund because they are exempt from "quotas".
A next to final note: "business day" when talking banking usually means Monday thru Friday. Never mind that your bank branch may be open on Saturday. Monday thru Friday. Period! (this may vary with your bank... ask questions) And there is a 'cut-off' time. That may be different for an actual in person purchase, an online transaction or an ATM transaction. If you miss the cut off time on a Friday your transaction may not be processed until Monday evening. That can screw you around.
A final note: People with more money in a bank get treated better than people who overdraw their account frequently. Fact of life. Maybe not 'fair' in some folks minds, but there it is.
If you made it thru to here I hope you learned something useful. Need more; ask.
Quote from: Homegrown Tomatoes on January 11, 2008, 12:02:33 AM
.... check everything.
Goes without saying.... who's money is it after all? And check in a 'timely manner'. If you read the staement in full, usually there is a time limit to dispute charges. Outright fraud may be different, but fee disputes have definite limits, normally within one statement cycle, maybe two. Check with your bank.
I'd still rather keep my money in a bank over under the mattress or in a sock. Ya' just got to know the banks rules. It doesn't do much good to scream after the fact most of the time.
BTW Citibank is having problems --cutting cash withdrawals in half ---and who knows what all is up. We are switching one our accounts out of it.
Seems to me that if we have to ask for a supervisor and rant and rave at the bank to get our own money back that they have already won... Meaning that the system is completely stacked against the customer and individual and even if you get a fee back today the writing is on the wall and there is no way that the little guy can win.
Best thing you can do is pull the money and refuse to use the bank at all.
I like what Sassy said about her and Glenn's retirement plans...Amass as much land and equipment as possible work with it live off of it and when you are done with it... if need be sell it to live...
we cannot take it with us.... Why would we leave it in the bank a 1% interest to be charged fees when we want to make a withdrawl or write a check...
There are accounts where you can avoid some of the fees...But many of them require you to leave 10,000 in the account at all times...
I have not written ten cheques in my life...I bet it has been 10 or 12 years since I even tried...I do not have a bank card either... I am not giving the bank an excuse to take my money...When I run out of money at the house I march into the bank and in person withdraw a little from the account my wife and I have together... Otherwise I keep it in my pocket When I sell a car I never deposit the money in the bank...I give my wife some if she needs some for the bills and such and I put the rest in the sock drawer as it were
I am not sure why people rely so heavily on the banks... when I worked for AT&T I had direct deposit...I would go to the bank on payday in person and withdraw all the money from the account save 5 bucks which the bank charged me at the time each month for having the account...this was 10+ years ago and I considered it a rip off that the bank charged me 60 bucks a year to have an account.
We read in the news every year bank profits are up and each quarter sets a new record for bank revenue...It is at the expense of the average person....They fee you to death and pay you nothing to use your money for the so called convenience of being charged to use your own money...
A complete scam.
Quote from: benevolance on January 11, 2008, 02:14:08 AM
Seems to me that if we have to ask for a supervisor and rant and rave at the bank to get our own money back that they have already won...
The 'secret' is
do not rant and rave. Remain calm but be resolute. Ranting and raving will turn the most cheerful, most friendly, most upbeat service rep totally against you. I'll be honest and upfront... when a person became belligerent I was predisposed to NOT giving them what they were wanting, no matter what. I always tried to be honest and give them their due, a fair shake. But if the person on the other end of the line was being 'nasty' that was a point against them. That's human nature.
I repeat, know the rules. Play within them. You will only pay fees when you play outside the rules or enter into the penalty zones. I have not paid a bank or credit card fee in decades. Not because I got favors as an employee. But because I knew the rules and played by them. On the couple of occasions when I did mess up and was charged a fee for being late in making a payment or whatever, I was able to receive a refund by asking for the refund and remaining civil. I find that easier than butting my head against walls. OMMV. :-\
We have great credit & once in awhile, Glenn has to wait for his checks longer than planned - I'll wait to pay the bills as long as I can, or since we get bills at both places, I may pick up the bills in the valley & only have a few days to pay - it seems to take at least 10 days for the credit card or mortgage companies to post payments - sometimes the pmt will reach them a day or 2 late. I'll call them up & explain the situation - they look at my pmt history & always refund it. Just rec'd a copy of one of our credit reports. Perfect credit... one of these days I hope to not have any credit card bills.
Benevolance, you are much more disciplined than we are or than we were when we were younger. Actually, I never had any bills except my mortgage & student loan & the regular bills for utilities etc. until I married Glenn d* ::) but then we have a lot more property & equipment. When you look at what we owe, it is a small percentage to what we own...
BTW, I worked in a bank for 10 years in Washington... New Accts Rep, loans, real estate...
I don't really trust banks either - not when you see how they loan out more than what their assets are. Now, debt is considered an asset to the bank - just like the Federal Reserve - they print the money out of thin air, there is nothing backing it, loan it to the gov't, we pay the interest on it & every billion we buy, they can loan out $15 billion - nice racket - no wonder so many banks & S&L's go under >:( Right now Citibank is looking ripe for a run - but then, our nice gov't (read us taxpayers) will bail out all those risky loans - the banks will come out ok in most cases, or at least the ceo's & they'll repossess the property/homes but the depositors, & taxpayers will pick up the bulk of the debt & those who borrowed too much are left without anything, too.
Sassy
I got sick of the banks when I got out of school and owed all that money...And then I started to see how evil the system was... I had to get almost fanatical to save myself from their system and the cycle of poverty
Not sure exactly that discipline was what I had... more so desperation. I have been in the bank like maybe three times in the last 4 years...I hate them... I am sure nice people work there and all... But being self employed and owning my own house they still think I am high risk and all of that etc..
I tried to buy a house maybe 7 years ago and I had a down payment of 15% saved up and I was self employed and they laughed at me because I did not have any credit cards or anything like that... That was about the time I swore off the banks for good... The system is rigged... If you have credit cards bank cards and use them you have to pay to use them and it costs you a fortune in interest and fees...Which hurts you... if you refuse to use bank cards and credit cards to save money they say you have no credit history...In essence they are forcing you into a system where you have to accumulate debt....they will make the money off the debts max out what they can charge you in interest and fees and count on you not being able to control or pay that debt off and thus enslave you into a lifetime cycle of poverty where you will make payments for the rest of your life to the bank...
Kind of like we are seeds and we will feed them forever once we grow and start producing for them. There is no real way to beat the bank... it is their system and it is designed to make them money no matter what you do...the only thing you can do is to limit your dealings with them as much as possible.
It dawned on me on the way home from home depot that this might happen. I checked my account online that day and the transactions where in the correct order. Sometime later they where rearranged to create the overdraft. All 3 transactions posted on the same day. I didn't discover the changes until yesterday. I'm sorry but no matter what the rules are thats just crooked.
When my wife and I got married we had two different bank's. We kept it that way and we had a regular passbook savings account at hers. Well they started the policy of requiring a activity in the account to be made every six months or a penalty would apply. So there was a period of time that there was no activity in that account as funds were needed elsewhere. Yep you got it. They tapped a penalty for inactivity. Yep your right I went to the bank and withdrew my funds and closed the account and moved it to my bank where there is no such policy.
My wife always harps on me to get a debit card. I tell her that I have enough trouble keeping my checking account reconsiled with a check and a debit card would be worse. Yes I am the guy in the commercial that stops everything by writing a check. I guess it is old school but I like it better.
I have had accounts from one end of the state to the other(frequent moves associated with the job) and I have found out that the banks without any association with a major firm are the best to deal with as it's decisions are local and they are not held by the regulations of the larger firms. Mergers are great for stockholders but disastrous for the common local folks when it comes to cooperation and communication. I guess Don you will not aggree but they were here first. But the downside is "so were the indians".
I use a credit card for many of my purchases. I pay it off every month. Each quarter I get a little check back from the card company based on my usage. It has to be the best card I have ever had.
Quote from: benevolance on January 11, 2008, 05:06:08 AM
... If you have credit cards bank cards and use them you have to pay to use them and it costs you a fortune in interest and fees...Which hurts you...
IF you use the credit card like we have used credit cards for over two decades, you too will never pay the bank or credit card company any fees. Pay the full balance off by the due date. DO NOT use it if you know you do not have the ability to pay the amount in full. No body forces you to spend money you do not have, except for cases of emergency and we're not talking that here. We're talking everyday living expenses where you use the CC as if you were spending cash. And if you have the right card, like desdawg, you get cash back. What a deal.
Plus you establish being a good credit risk, and will have other banks stampeding their way to your door with offers. You don't have to accept them. In fact I don't like them, but that's another story.
It's a modern world. It's the only one we have. I find it easier to know the rules and play within them. OMMV.
Sassy, you've found the 'secret'. You are a good customer and the bank/CC company knows it and they give you a break when you have a mis-step along the way. I bet you are polite on the phone. Polite and politely firm go a long ways when talking to customer service reps.
"Sassy, you've found the 'secret'. You are a good customer and the bank/CC company knows it and they give you a break when you have a mis-step along the way. I bet you are polite on the phone. Polite and politely firm go a long ways when talking to customer service reps."
Ummm, most of the time... ::) :-[ Sometimes I have to go through so many different recordings, Spanish etc, they want you to say your response & then it doesn't understand what you said & that can go on for 5 min. Then you have to wait on the line for another 5-10 min & sometimes you get cut off & have to repeat the whole thing, & then, oftentimes this isn't the 1st time you've had to call them about a screw-up - by then, I have little patience >:( I apologize to the person I'm talking to (if they are polite in the 1st place) & tell them it is not them, it is their system that has me totally frustrated...! There's ways of getting to talk to people fairly quickly, but sometimes it takes a couple times of contacting them to figure that out... [frus] [frus] [crz]
Yesterday she was funny --- she was yelling at a recording (bank phone answering system), "Don't talk to me in Spanish." One of her pet peeves, although she speaks quite a bit of Spanish, somehow she feels that this is the USA and she thinks English is the national language. Ha.... d*
Quote"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered." –Thomas Jefferson
What did Thomas know that we choose to ignore? hmm -- I guess it's the system.
Don
we all understand the policy of borrowing money or spending money off a credit card...Paying the bill on time to limit or erase any additional charges etc.... There are a lot of rules and the whole point of their system is to try to get you to spend money that you do not have..
I am sure that they had accountants work with a semantics guy to tweak a system where 99% of the people do not take the steps you do and avoid the extra fees penalties interest etc... They are counting on 99% of the people not being like you....
I agree, banks and credit card companies can be a real hassle to deal with when things don't go quite right, but I have always been able to come to a reasonable solution with both by being nice and patient. Right now I pay neither of them fees or interest except on my home loan. I pay most of my bills and buy most things with my credit card which I pay off every month. Not only do I not pay fees, but the card gives me 3% cash back for gas and grocery purchases, and 1% cash back on everything else, including all the utility bills etc that get paid on the card.
Looks like this has been going on for a long time.
Quote
"We have in this country one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever known. I refer to the Federal Reserve Board and the Federal Reserve Banks. Some people think the Federal Reserve Banks are U.S. government institutions. They are private credit monopolies; domestic swindlers, rich and predatory money lenders which prey upon the people of the United States for the benefit of themselves and their foreign customers. The Federal Reserve banks are the agents of the foreign central banks. The truth is the Federal Reserve Board has usurped the Government of the United States by the arrogant credit monopoly which operates the Federal Reserve Board." –Congressman Louis T. McFadden, Chairman of the House Banking and Currency Committee, addressed the House on June 10, 1932
...and ...yes, I of course am a victim of the system also --- question is -- would I have more or less if I didn't use it? hmm Since we are all stuck in the middle of the system, not participating at all and surviving is another problem. I can still hate the system though. [crz]
Great video "Money as Debt" http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9050474362583451279&q=money+as+debt&total=2000&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0
Here's a link to another discussion on money, banks, Federal Reserve etc
http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=3220.msg34238#msg34238
and yet another video - English humor on how the "market" works http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/187.html
Quote from: Redoverfarm on January 11, 2008, 09:35:37 AM
My wife always harps on me to get a debit card. I tell her that I have enough trouble keeping my checking account reconciled with a check and a debit card would be worse. Yes I am the guy in the commercial that stops everything by writing a check. I guess it is old school but I like it better.
You are doing the right thing for you. You understand your check book limitations and are smart to avoid a debit card. If you have trouble with accounting for paper checks it will only get worse if you start using the debit card. I've seen that too many times.
Quote from: benevolance on January 11, 2008, 12:58:23 PM
....we all understand the policy of borrowing money or spending money off a credit card...... They are counting on 99% of the people not being like you....
If you understand the rules like you profess, then the only way you get yourself into trouble is by over spending. The CC statements are about as straightforward as they can be. When our bill comes we look at the box that states the total amount due. I know if I pay that I will not be paying the bank any fees or interest. None . Nada. It's not rocket science. So I then set the payment up using my banks Billpay feature on their website. I set it to pay the business day before the due date and forget about it.
All it takes is knowing how much you can spend and being certain that your bank or CC compnay receives the money by that date.
I made my first comments on this topic with the idea of explaining some of the ways the bank system works. I did not mean this treatise to be a defense of the practices of the banking system. There are things I personally may not agree with, but I feel I need to take part in the 'game' to operate my life in a manner that is convenient to me. Like any endeavor, poker, football, car racing, hunting, you need to know and understand the rules before you play. Otherwise at some point you are going to run afoul of the rules and be penalized.
Regarding the telephone system and all the number punching and waiting. There are bypasses to many systems. With my bank for example pressing the ZERO key a couple of times will take you to a human. Follow this link How to Bypass Most Phone Menus and Get to a Live Operator (http://www.realtechnews.com/posts/2983)
Many places with voice recognition systems may route you more directly if you say the word associate or operator. Others may route you to a human if you don't say anything at all.
Don
I have no issue because I refuse to play the game... The whole premise of a credit card is to get people to use money that is not theirs that is not covered by money in their account.
A few people are on top of this have lots of money in the bank like you and can avoid fees... the other 99% cannot... The bank tells you it is okay to make payments they set you up with reward progams for using the card and all of that.
I know all about it...AT&T used the same type of crap they created a system that would allow them to make billions... When I started working for them the first digital networks were being built in Florida Pittsburgh and New York...And we were trying to get people to give up their bulletproof analog phones for the terribly weak signal of digital...We would offer them all kinds of rewards for switching... free for months...Try to get people to give up their land lines for the cell phones... The thinking was that costs are fixed with the landline...With the cell there was roaming and out of call area usage... peak usage... and so on and so forth...Back then nobody had a cheaper cell phone bill compared to their landline...
AT&T even came up with a catchy slogan...We would tell customers that it was the only phone you need...it was pure baloney...They had ads showing it to be slim light weight and convenient...Selling it as a safety measure...And the whole point was to get you used to taking it with you so that you would talk on the phone more often and the like...and the end result would be a increase in the monthly bill.
It is all a scam designed to get as much money out of the average person as possible.
What a change.... ???
I actually agree with benovelance and disagree with Don :o
I really hate banks. I dislike any company that uses my money and acts haughty at the same time. I did close an account once that had slightly over the maximum FDIC amount in it. Sure got a lot of bowing and scraping from various levels but I was POed and still closed it.
This is a timely subject. I am NOT a believer in the new cashless society...period! My wife is not as enlightened and has a check card. We had made some large purchases this week and she used her card. Tonight WE got a call from the bank and they went over every charge including where we ate an hour before. They said it looked suspicious. To make it worse several days ago we were starting the purchases and she was using her AMEX. They thought the transactions were not normal and refused a charge. That stunt nearly cost me a lot of money.
No apology, just "Oh .....That's OK then....I'll let the charge go through".
SOB's....I'll have to go to church for a month to make up for what I've said to people this week!
Now even my wife agrees that BIG BROTHER is watching!
Quote from: benevolance on January 11, 2008, 09:35:41 PM
It is all a scam designed to get as much money out of the average person as possible.
Peter (benevolence) once again it's uncanny how similar our core beliefs are; it's our individual implementation that differs.
I too do not comprehend how readily most people spend untold numbers of dollars for their beloved cell phones. I worked for Sprint PCS for a while and while there had one of their phones... special employee deal $15 a month. It was cheap and I couldn't resist. But, before working for them I could see the ridiculousness of the charges. After leaving I closed the account. Last May we bought a Tracfone because we wanted emergency service up in the mountains. We have a tower near by. Works great. We got it on a special 19.95 recon offer. Came with 120 minutes. We used almost all of them by November and just before Christmas bought 90 minutes more... that are good until June I think.
So what if 'they' try to entice you and I with all sorts of fancy slogans, 'free' offers, glossy ads, phones with more dodads than you can shake a stick at, etc. That's their right. We make our own decisions based on what we perceive as our reality. Somewhere along life's road I learned to think about what's best for me, to think about what I really need, vs want. Sometimes I buy what I want instead of what I need... like a 17" widescreen laptop instead of the 15" that would have done the job. I seem to have passed this along to my son. Well, mostly, he does have that RX8, that isn't really a car one 'needs'....
I believe anybody can do that if they use common sense. Of course somehow common sense does seem to be in short supply, maybe an endangered commodity. Too bad.
As for the banks and CC companies monitoring purchases patterns as peternap mentioned, we've had a few similar calls. (I find that the more we've used the card the less frequent those calls become.) But included in one of those was the occasion my wife lost her card, didn't know it and it was found by a person with larceny in their heart. They tried using it at a gas pump, incorrectly entered the asked for zip code more than the allowed number of times, and the 'system' turned off the card, and initiated a phone call to us. That worked out. It's too bad that sometimes their system screws up.
QuoteIt is all a scam designed to get as much money out of the average person as possible.
...and, it looks like the perfect definition of "The System".
On another note --- yes -- they are spying, but I can say it worked out for us also. Sassy had a card she hadn't used in years. Someone somehow got the number from some records ripoff and around $3000 of charges showed up in LA and other places. They knew she hadn't used it -- called to confirm it - shut the account and I don't think she even had to pay the first $50 she may have technically been liable for.
At the same time -- if you have a bunch of open credit accounts, you can't just go close them even if you don't use them. It will also mess up your credit by screwing up a ratio of available credit to outstanding debt or something like that that they look at. Don probably knows.
Back to that debt is money theme or something like it, I guess.
This is an interesting discussion. I've been working hard for the past several years to eliminate all my debt. I realised that the only way I'd ever be able to retire would be to be debt free. Seems this may be bad for the economy but it's been good for me. I never realised what a drain debt was on me when I was younger. You grow up thinking you're suposed to by a house a car etc., get a credit card or you're not normal. The only way you can get there is with borrowed money or so we're taught. I've been trying to teach my kids that this isn't true and to avoid using credit they don't have to but they won't listen to me.
The money I'm not paying on loans is paying to build my cabin.
My son has been helping me build my cabin and I think he's getting the idea that it can be done. You don't need to go into debt to own a house. It may not be as big as you think you need but you won't have a mortgage to sweat every month either. Not to mention that a smaller place is cheaper to maintain and operate. We are talking about building him a place next door when my cabin is done.
Quote from: glenn kangiser on January 11, 2008, 11:10:15 PM
[1]... but I can say it worked out for us also. .....don't think she even had to pay the first $50 she may have technically been liable for.
[2]---- if you have a bunch of open credit accounts, you can't just go close them even if you don't use them. It will also mess up your credit
[1] My experience has been that unless you are a 'creep', slow payer, irregular payer, .... the card vendors I've worked with will not charge the $50. It's good business.
[2] That's right... best to close maybe one a year if you have loads of them.
Another helpful tidbit. 8) You can get a totally free credit report on yourself (and a separate one on your spouse) once a year by
CLICKING HERE. (https://www.annualcreditreport.com/cra/index.jsp) This is NOT the same as one of the many commercial sites that lure you in with the 'free' word and then try to sell you on a subscription, or make you give a CC# and then have to cancel it within 30 days. This is the free federally mandated site. You can get a report from each of the big three companies. You will be offered several opportunities to buy services but you don't have to do the sign up and cancel dance.
If you sign up for the Transunion newsletter they will send you a reminder email in 12 months so you can go check again for free. They'll send you offers you can ignore. That's what I/we do.
Quote from: ScottA on January 12, 2008, 12:28:36 AM
...Seems this may be bad for the economy but it's been good for me. ....You grow up thinking you're supposed to by a house a car etc., get a credit card or you're not normal. The only way you can get there is with borrowed money or so we're taught. I've been trying to teach my kids that this isn't true and to avoid using credit they don't have to but they won't listen to me.
The economy is not the responsibility of the individual. The individuals responsibility is to themselves and their family. Period. We are 'taught' a lot of incorrect things by examples and slick admanship. And so many people get themselves into so much trouble by not thinking for themselves. That's maybe partly the fault of government schools, but it's also in large part due to the failure of parents to understand fiscal responsibility. Like father, like son, and so on I think.
We tried to get the local school board to try an experiment with a special short series of classes on money; bank accounts, balancing accounts, credit use.... The bank I worked for (Bank of America, okay... no surprise there) would have allowed me to use work time. In other words, they would've paid me or a coworker to do this as a public service. The school board turned it down.
All you can do as a parent is try to teach your kids; they learn most things by example I believe. Sounds like you're on track Scott. Not everyone takes lessons to heart all the time, or right away. Handling money like my parents did has been lost to the 'I want it now' generation. Instant gratification feels so good. At first.
Good example, building a cabin with money that otherwise might have disappeared in the form of interest payments. Lots of folks fall into the 'well, the interest on my mortgage is deductible' trap. I call it a trap. No matter how much of a deduction it gives you, simple math shows that you didn't get back what you paid out. And many folks with mortgage interest don't itemize and lose it anyhow.
As I've stated here and there before there are two words that you don't hear often enough.
Personal responsibility.
FYI, I was a small time manager in the customer service and check / check card fraud departments. Never loaned money. Never talked people into taking on debt.
Note that you can also request a credit report free any time you are turned down for credit based on information in one of the reports.
I know-- not all of us will always be able to use cash -- and I seldom do - even on regularly paid accounts --- yup--sucked in by the system.
I'm just one of those people that likes his privacy and none of what I've written so far is intended to insult Don in any way. In fact, I think he may be a little worse than me. ;D
What I was doing this week isn't a big thing. It wasn't illegal or unethical, it just wasn't the banks business. I had several CD's mature this month that needed to be reinvested. I found some hard asssets that I think are better than gold considering the current price of gold. I was just reinvesting...
I have almost no credit and I'm told that's worse than bad credit. ;DD......So what!
House is paid form farms are paid form cars are paid for and I never plan to finance anything again.
Now having said that I will say that privacy and or independence is not cheap or convenient!
Long ago, I did as Don and started using pre-paid cell phones and if you think I gave them anything like legitimate information when I energized them, Well.....I have a bridge for sale you'd love, ;D
I always lie about personal information unless it is a felony (Like on government forms) I am a member of the Million Mom March so I can keep an eye on them. My name with them is Billy Hill.....Think about it ;D
I have to make phone orders and internet purchases sometimes and use pre paid Visa's whenever possible.
Just like the rest of you, I have to play the system to live. Stock market, Banks and yes I reluctantly pay my taxes.....but I do try to insulate myself from as much of the record keeping as possible.
The key things to never be correct about giving are :
Name
SS Number
Address
Birth date
Phone number
These are all things that information gathering companies key on.
Boy I got off topic, Sorry! ???
Quote from: peternap on January 12, 2008, 09:26:34 AM
I always lie about personal information unless it is a felony (Like on government forms) I am a member of the Million Mom March so I can keep an eye on them.
;D ;D I too. I have junk or totally fictitious email addresses for all sorts of web stuff, telephone numbers out of thin air, one particular 'birthdate' I use for crap where it shouldn't matter, 123 Main St for a street address when it's no matter.... and also belong to a number of organizations whose philosophies run counter to mine. I do draw that line at paying membership fees, except for one particular environmentalist group here in the SW. For it a group of us have a decoy member and four of us chip in for the annual dues. We've had some fun with a few of their annual wilderness picnic get-to-gethers. :D
Sometimes you have to be really firm in protecting the SSN. Places like the phone company don't need it... for them it's simply an ID number. Any number that looks like an SSN will do.
every time I CALL the phone company it is a fight because I tell them they are not getting the social and I am not verifying it on the phone...
Half the time I end up dropping the F bomb...And then they hang up or I get a supervisor and I tell them it is my right to refuse to give out a SSN on the telephone...
They do not even need it...They just want an id #...So they get my drivers license # instead
Interesting website - this article is on the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR) discussing the need for one world-wide currency http://www.forcingchange.org/store/1874178/page/1421181
NO.
Global money is a stepping stone to setting the stage for global government.
I believe in a couple of quotes from the article...
"Once a nation parts with control of its currency and credit, it matters not who makes that nation's laws."
— W.L. Mackenzie King, [former Prime Minister of Canada].
Essentially, the requirement for a single global currency is a bank that has power over all countries, kindred, and tongues. Former Canadian Member of Parliament, Paul Hellyer, criticized this development in 1994, saying that under such a global currency/banking system "the interests of citizens, of individual countries must be subordinate...to the interests of international finance."
"...[countries] would no longer be able to pursue any kind of independent policy. Sovereignty over the most powerful of all economic tools would be turned to an international monster...A world bank run by a world kingship of international appointees collectively not accountable to anyone? Heavenly days!"
You think you've got crooks now.....
Didn't someone once say something to the effect of 'give me control of their money, I could care less about the laws they pass?'
You've got to wonder how much damn money do these people need. If I had a million I could live happily ever after.
Sparks -- yes - pretty close but I cna't remember who.
Scott -- in their class, there is never enough-- there is no limit to their greed.
hmm Don, sounds like the New World Order -- one world government. Bush would be proud.
I think that may be why they are trying to wipe out the dollar. To implement it.
It was said that any time GHWB wanted a business to fail so he could profit off of it, he put dubya in charge. Not sure how he benefited but I think Al Martin USN Ret said it.
This is an interesting discussion. I agree with what Don says about a lot of things here. For me credit is a tool. And like any tool in the toolbox if used effectively can get the job done. If not used properly you can hurt yourself with it. We live in a world where certain items are priced really high and most people don't have the ability to go out and plunk down the cash needed. So in those circumstances credit has become a necessary evil. I spent 9 years building my home one paycheck at a time and when it was nearly done it was all paid for. I then decided to get a small mortgage, $65K. I placed the proceeds in a money market account and using that plus a little credit here and there have managed to turn it into some 60 real properties. I currently have four mortgage payments. The rest are paid for. I consider proper credit management part of my business strategy and one of my duties as the guy in charge. There isn't any future in being angry at a bank because of decisions I make personally. One of lifes biggest wastes is a mistake I don't draw a lesson from. I make mistakes but I just have to buck up and go on.
Desdawg, we use credit as a tool, also. We owe 2 mortgages, have 2 paid for, have income from rentals, and just about all the equipment is paid for. We really live very frugally & do most everything ourselves... At this time in our lives - I could retire in 2 yrs, I'd like to have everything paid off - then I don't have to wonder or worry where we'll get the money to pay the month's bills. We have money put away, but don't like to touch that at this point. That is if I have any retirement left after the gov't & stock market get finished with it. :(
What makes me mad are the manipulations the central banks (re Federal Reserve) & international bankers do to cause panics etc. And the "creative" financing that goes on - just one example recently - the mortgage fiasco that is affecting markets worldwide. Our CPI (commulative price index) that the gov't keeps changing on how it is reported - right now still doesn't look that bad, but if you were figuring it out the way they did 20 yrs ago, it would look pretty bad. They don't even report how much money the Feds are printing out (from thin air, mind you) that our tax dollars pay interest on (when our congress, who, btw, are voted on - supposedly ::) should be in charge to avoid "conflict of interest" yeah sure... d* d* ) so the big bankers make all the money, manipulate the markets, control the money & as of a couple years ago, they don't even report how much paper money they are printing so that the inflationary effects aren't really known by the man on the street. Those are the things that make me mad... Sure, so far we've been able to use it to our advantage... but if things keep going like they are with the NY stock market falling of 2000 points in a matter of days - if the banks call in all their loans, anyone owing money could be screwed :-\
But hey, it's a beautiful day outside, sunny again while I'm sure the valley is socked in & I'm up here in the mountains on paid for land in a paid for cabin... :) c* Now to look up if there are any yard/garage sales.... ;D
This link would fit under here or "what your gov't has done for you today"
BANK SECRECY ACT:
GOLD BROKERS WILL BE FORCED TO REGISTER GOLD SALES
By Jon Christian Ryter
January 12, 2004
NewsWithViews.com
Within two months gold brokers and jewelers in the United States will fall under the purview of the Bank Secrecy Act of 2001 and will be required to report to the Treasury Department's Financial Crimes Enforcement Network [FinCEN] any time one of their customers buys $50,000 in gold or precious stones, or spends more than $10,000 in cash.
The twist in this regulation comes from Section 103.23 of the Bank Secrecy Act that forces gold brokers and jewelers to construe that separate purchases over a period of several days or weeks are, in fact, one purchase in the eyes of FinCEN. What was going to happen in late February or March, 2004 began to surface as a cyber-rumor in late November. By the middle of December the Internet was flooded with unsubstantiated rumors that gold confiscation was around the corner. A mid-level Treasury official addressing a jewelers' convention in November mentioned that the Treasury Department was writing the regulations that would enforce Section 359 of the USA Patriot Act, commonly known as the Bank Secrecy Act. The conspiracy dam ruptured, and the cyber-flood began. Only this time, the rumors were largely true with respect to a registry being created for gold brokers and diamond and precious stone merchants and their most profitable clients.
The Bank Secrecy Act of 2001 was written by the same FDIC and Fed officials who created the privacy intrusion regulations in 1998 that were innocuously promoted to the American people as a bank "service" referred to as "Know Your Customer." On the heels of the repudiation of "Know Your Customer" by America's financial institutions and privacy rights groups, Congress made two attempts--one in 1999 and another in 2000--to enact the Clinton Administration's proffered money laundering legislation that would have expanded law enforcement's access to personal information about your financial transactions (if there was sufficient grounds to suspect you might be engaged in some sort of unlawful activity due to the size of either the withdrawals from, or deposits into, your account at a bank, savings and loan, credit union or brokerage house). After HR 3886, The International Counter-Money Laundering Act of 2000 died on the vine, it would be September 11, 2001 before the American people would be frightened enough to blindly sacrifice a little bit more of their constitutional privacy for what they erroneously believed would be a safer America. On October 27, 2001 the Bank Secrecy Act piggybacked its way to passage as Section 359 of Public Law 107-56--the Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required To Intercept and Destruct Terrorism (USA Patriot Act of 2001). con't at link below
http://www.newswithviews.com/Ryter/jon13.htm
... and so are some others....
Mysterious $100 'supernote' counterfeit bills appear across world
DANDONG, China | The currency changer, brazenly plying his illegal trade in the Bank of China lobby, pulled out a thick wad of cash from around the world and carefully removed a bill.
The 2003 series U.S. $100 bill was a fake, but not just any fake. It was a "supernote," a counterfeit so perfect it's an international whodunit.
It had come from a North Korean businessman, the changer said, getting angry looks from his confederates. He stank of alcohol, but his story was plausible. The impoverished hermit nation sat just across the Yalu River from Dandong.
The story continues HERE... (http://www.kansascity.com/105/story/441167.html)
Quote from: desdawg on January 19, 2008, 08:10:09 AM
This is an interesting discussion. I agree with what Don says about a lot of things here. For me credit is a tool. And like any tool in the toolbox if used effectively can get the job done. If not used properly you can hurt yourself with it. We live in a world where certain items are priced really high and most people don't have the ability to go out and plunk down the cash needed. So in those circumstances credit has become a necessary evil. I spent 9 years building my home one paycheck at a time and when it was nearly done it was all paid for. I then decided to get a small mortgage, $65K. I placed the proceeds in a money market account and using that plus a little credit here and there have managed to turn it into some 60 real properties. I currently have four mortgage payments. The rest are paid for. I consider proper credit management part of my business strategy and one of my duties as the guy in charge. There isn't any future in being angry at a bank because of decisions I make personally. One of lifes biggest wastes is a mistake I don't draw a lesson from. I make mistakes but I just have to buck up and go on.
I personaly only invest in things I have control over. I hate it when other people lose my money. My home is also paid for and did it thru a few investments and a lot of paychecks. Now I like credit cards cause I do not want a morgage against my home, to much power against me to feel confertable. They also control how you live, taxes, insurance and a few other things if you have a loan on your home. I like the zero instrest cards that way I can make money with there money and pay it back off. Now I made a 10,000.00 investment to build a 60,000.00 thing, that thing made me over 75,000.00 in a year and I still have the thing and paid off the card. Now since then that thing has made me over 360,000.00 and I still have the thing and it is still worth 60,000.00 and I can get that out of it any time I want in a little time. If I did not have the credit card I would have had to take a loan out on my place and I like a free clear title. I use the cards to make money with not buy toys to keep up with the jones that go down in value as soon as you get them. If I can't make money with something I try not to buy it. No brand new cars that kind of money can make big bucks other than just having a fancy ride! Now I also like my free time and sorta retired at 45 to do what I want to do since life is short. So I don't keep tring to make tons of money just to spend on more things I realy don't need cause I like living a simple life with out hassles that come with being very well off or rich. PS I have a cell phone that I pay 10.00 a month to use. I get around 50 mins free each month and allways have left over time except during fire season when I am away from home for a while. I love to call home each night to say I am OK and see how things are going but then it is a buisness expence! Mark
I do similar, Mark. Tools - equipment etc.
Usually used or build or modify it. No use paying a lot of extra for new when it's value drops the moment you set in the seat.