The solar stock I mentioned in John's post on the General forum, made the upward jump I expected. It was a little late but I'm not psychic, just childish. That will keep going up so I'll leave it unless I see a problem.
I just saw a Nazi on CNBC who siad security items like eye scanners will be the hot lick in our cashless society. I don't live in a cashless society so he can Kiss my,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Timber is still down as is land and I suspect it will go down further......But......it will go up in a few years so I want to add more timberland this year. Virginia has some tremendous tax breaks for timber sales and even after logging it, you have the land.
What's everyone else doing this year.
Gold should be good as the dollar is being made into toilet paper.
Some think it will go way up - depends on what the price control boys do to it I think.
Well, as of right now, DE, CSCO, MON and YUM are not looking very good...DRYS is up and down as usual. If I had enough money, I'd put a bunch of it in BIDU.....or maybe GOOG.LOL...but then if I had enough to buy a bunch of BIDU, I'd put it in land and forget the stock market!!!!
I lost a ton this past year playing with JSDA.... but it would be one to watch this year. If they have a good quarter, it could go up several dollars in one pop.
They look like good stocks...BIDU's pretty jumpy right now. It was up over a dollar and then lost half of it in the 20 seconds I was watching. They're a little pricey for me though. ASTI is a dream come true. I've already made enough off of it to but 300 wooded acres and still have my original investment as change.
It's started it's normal pullback now and will sit for a couple weeks before the next leg up. For 07 it was up around 720 percent.
Now if people will start turning loose of timber land cheap....I'll be happy!
Thanks, I'll look at ASTI.
The thing with BIDU is it will swing 10 or 15 bucks a day....and it's VERY expensive. I really don't know where to put the money this year. I believe there's not that much of a problem with the economy, well not enough to justify the drop we're seeing in the market. I think it's all about hype and the hype is designed to cause a crisis of confidence.
IF the talking heads on the market would be up-beat...I believe we'd still be doing OK. The fact is the government...THIS administration has it in it's head that if our money is worthless and our economy is in tatters....the rich get richer and places like Saudi Arabia and Dubai can buy even more of our country. I'm not sure why anyone who's American would desire another country's money to be worth more than ours or another country to own our land and economy....but that is what seems to be going on.
Amen!
If you look at ASTI, look at all the research on the company. Most of it's management came from FSLR or one of the more progressive companies.
Right now the z warrants (ASTIZ)are a little better buy IMHO. There's no premium but that may change soon.
They're moving up on news and then pulling back 20% or so of the gain. That's the sweet spot to look for to buy. Next news isn't expected for a few more weeks. That's when they have their newly equipment certified...or it will move on NHI announcing the purchase of another 10%.....or someone says the sky is blue...or Grey, you get the idea d*
Thanks,
I'll watch it and maybe jump in in a couple of weeks....
I created a sim. stock account last Xmas and had a bunch of Google and Apple (i'm a Mac nut and my kid bro. works for Google). I should have invested real money back then. :(
Cabela's is way down this winter. I've already put a little into them when they were down to $15, but I'm thinking I'm going to put in more as soon as I figure out where they're going to bottom out. :P
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=CAB&t=6m
I should have invested real money back then.
If I had a nickel for every time I said that, I wouldn't need to invest ;D
I do not believe in the staock market...Because it is not something that you can hold onto really... With land, a house a classic car it may not shoot through the roof with profits but it has a guaranteed minimum value.... I guess that is why gold is through the roof... Glenn says gold is going to go up... but it is already artifically inflated in value due to the american economy and dollar being in the toilet.
It makes me laugh in a sick and twisted way...They said that we had to get away from the gold economy and they forced that worthless paper on us...and took our gold away from us...And now we see as the paper is not even good for wiping our arses anymore that once again gold is establishing itself... Of course now they own almost all the gold so when we buy small amounts and drive the price up they just get richer still....
No matter what we do they get richer and we get "F'ed"
I would say considering this is a home builders forum... that a good investment is in a small pick up and some tools...If you were handy to advertise to shingle a few extra roofs or maybe build a deck here or there...
A lot of contractors charge upto $100 an hour for small jobs like this... Recruit a helper and plan the work out and you usually can get it organized so that the old shingles or deck can be disposed of and the new one can be applied in a single week-end
I would say this would be a great way to get ahead...
If I was going to invest in anything it would be Flax and Hemp.... They are going to legalize the growing of Hemp...And it will revolutionize the farming industry in America...By far the most profitable crop out there short of Marijuana...
Pulp and paper companies can make 3 times the profit without raping forests or using nasty chemicals to bleach and separate the pulp...
Hemp provides the densest concentation of usable carbon per acre of any crop.. almost twice as much as mature forest...
I know there are soy bean futures you can invest in....I would look into Hemp investments... Hemp Rope and Paper are of better quality than their counterparts... Enviro friendly also...
ThANK GOD Canada let up and has allowed farmers to grow hemp for a while now and it is very successful. You can even eat it.. use part of the stalk as a heating fuel...Make BioDiesel or ethanol from it...Not to mention make clothing (superior to cotton in every regard)..And carbon fiber panels for cars planes...Beams trusses...
Necessity will force Hemp on us.... I see why the big pulp and paper companies and the chemical companies wanted to avoid Hemp to make paper for a long time...The new way cuts out the big chemical companies and they are like mr oil very powerful... But there is less than 4% of ancient forest left in America... Also per ton no other product consumes more energy to make in the world compared to paper...Also it is very toxic and the discharge is horrible for the eco system as the run off goes into our rivers lakes and oceans... Using Hemp for anything means no pollution...Hemp is resistant to pests and bugs so no toxic herbicides or pesticides are needed to grow it...
Invest in Hemp my friends
QuoteBecause it is not something that you can hold onto really...
???
Yes it is. You own a share of a company.
Thirty years ago, my great uncles (being good, support-the-local-economy, Nebraskans) bought pieces of a little company called Berkshire-Hathaway. ;) My grandfather, on the other hand, always thought the stock market was a risky endeavor and missed numerous chances to build his money, including the one that made his brothers quite wealthy, so far as Nebraska farmers go.
Owning stock in a company is the same as owning your own business. All of the same rules apply. You need a manageable debt/profit balance. You need good management. You need a good business plan. etc, etc.
No Erin
Every so often the markets crash...And people that have stocks take a hit...Oh there are those that have all kinds of money and can afford to wait for the market to rebound...But take what happened at the turn of the millenium...All the tech stocks died and the market crashed...And all the mutual funds pension plans all went into the toilet.
Yes property fluctuates but it outgains the market.
I think that people mistake the single most powerful tool when it comes to their retirement... Saving money... it is not about getting lucky with the stock market or a piece of land... the single most important principle of amassing wealth has almost always been the ability to save money...
And when you make a investment be it on a car for resale a house or even some stocks...you never, ever spend the principle you always save it again along with a considerable chunk of the profits from the last investment..
Disciplined savings are the most important thing here.... without the savings there is nothing
Stock markets go up and they go down. I can recall at least three times the market in general made large dips over the decades I've had money in it. And many more smaller blips. However, in the long run the money invested has earned far more than it would have if otherwise invested. You only stand to lose money if you're in it for the short term. Or if you're unlucky and leave the cash in there too long before you retire and the markets dips just before you realign your investments. But even then, if you were a long haul investor you should be okay, just not as okay as you might have been.
There are many ways to invest in the stock market. Many take the easier route by investing money in mutual funds. Mutual funds with no loads are the best. You have to look. Mutuals are nice because they're usually not as volatile as a single stock. Unless you are a person who loves the thrill of the chase so to speak, I'd stay away from individual stocks. I'm not that type of person. But you still have to pay attention to what the funds are doing each year as some fund managers have a better track record than others.
The tech stock bubble bursting was nasty. Even my mutual tech fund was a bad deal.
Real estate is only as good as the local economy in my book. Stock funds are national, maybe global.
Our very conservative retirement portfolio increased by a little over 7% the past year, a touch better than market average. I'm happy. My son, in his mid 20's with a more aggressive mix of funds saw an increase of 12+%. Yes, a few months ago we both were worth more than present value, but we still did good on a point to point year. That's all that really matters.
OMMV
+1 for what Don said.
benevolance, if you read what everyone has posted, we are all right. Investments are just that, something we hope will increase in value.
I couldn't agree more with Glenn. Gold may well be the ultimate currency. I sure wouldn't buy it at the current spot price though. Look for scrap gold and old jewelry. Just don't buy Gold futures or other traded paper. Get the real stuff.
Your right...save your money but don't put all your eggs in that basket.
The stock market is only one investment and a dangerous one at that. I can't tell you how many times I've had to remind myself that I did the research and was convinced my position was sound even though it was tanking. I just turn the computer off and do something else. Short term stocks are a hole to put your money down.
Desdog just made a super investment in used materials. It's worth more than he paid many times over.
Unless your going to be a hermit, you have to play with money in some form. Nails cost money, lumber costs money, kids need college and weddings and wives need a night out once in a while and you always need a new gun. ;)
Land and timber at the right price is always good.
Just be intelligent with your investments and get what's right for you...Never base your investments on anothers advice without doing YOUR OWN research..and never, ever...eat the yellow snow ??? ;D
QuoteEvery so often the markets crash...And people that have stocks take a hit...Oh there are those that have all kinds of money and can afford to wait for the market to rebound...
And all of this can be said for owning your own business. Stocks in a company don't just mysteriously "tank". (http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/fragend/confused-smiley-013.gif) When the entire economy is down, so is the value of stocks in general (though there are still those which are increasing despite the market). But then, the same is true of a personally owned business. The general economy usually plays a part in how well your private business is doing, too. Otherwise stocks tank for the same reason any other business does.
If you're needing your money relatively soon, the market is a risky endeavor. In the short term it goes up, it goes down.
If you're hoping to grow it over the long term (ie, for retirement) it's really not. Long term, the market has done nothing but go up. Anything that I invest is going to basically sit there for the next 30 years, so long as the companies I'm invested in continue in the vein they're in.
An investment in the market
is disciplined savings. It just has a better long-term rate of return. ;)
BTW, I also agree with Don wrt mutual funds. Most of our retirement savings is wrapped up in those. They track whatever aspect of the market you're after and come already diversified (ie, not all the eggs in one basket). We actually invest very little in individual stocks.
People need to see the evils of the stock market....there was a 20 year period where there was some growth...and all of america started to rely on the market for their pension funds retirements etc...and then it crashed....We forget that the wealthy had already made their fortune and were pulling their money out long before the crash...
If you are skeptical to this look at Martha Stewart...She got inside information that the market was going to crash and when...So she pulled her stocks and it got noticed and she was made an example of....She did nothing any different than hundreds of the ultra wealthy....
So when the market crashed it was the small time investor the mom and pop middle class americans who took the brunt of the hit.
And now Bush and cronies want to boost the market and the economy with the money from your social security because america has not restored their blind faith in the stock market since the tech stock and Bre X stock catastrophies.
Land is a much better investment...Because over time land will grow timber...you can cut it and replant and the value of the land will increase as the timber matures... The housing market has cooled off...But look at the average price increase for land in the last 20-30 years if you are looking for a goldmine investment opportunity land has been it. And it will be it once again...This housing lull and impending recession are great if you want to buy some land on the cheap...Great time to buy
Quote.and then it crashed.
And rose to pre"crash" levels within a few years. (http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/fragend/confused-smiley-013.gif) Which goes back to the basic principle of not putting money you're going to need in the relatively near future into the market...
And real estate is only as good as the local economy in my book, too. ;)
Land prices in my part of the world have risen little more than inflation. ie, not much of an investment.
(https://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q75/djmillerbucket/oddsnends2/dow100.gif)
That's a nice little graph covering a lot of years. Pick any 30 year period. The index goes up. That graph's from [urlhttp://www.analyzeindices.com/dow-jones-history.shtml]here[/url].
There's another series of more detailed graphs [urlhttp://www.creatingwealth.co.nz/history_dow_jones_index.htm]here[/url].
Yes, there are declines, some more sharp than others. The important thing to remember with the stock market is to get into it at an early age and stick with it. The tortoise will win every time.
You don't invest money in the market if you might need it within a few years. That's what CD's are for. And you don't put money into CD's unless you won't need it for six months to a year. That's what bank or credit union savings accounts are for.
But I have a feeling that my words are going to fall on closed ears. :-\
Don we had 20 very good years before the tech stock crash.... it was planned... after all the money was milked out of the average american ...and the wealthy elite that owned the companies had rode america's coat tails for maximum profit they pulled the plug..
They get us to believe in a system of investment which they greatly influence and control and then when we buy into it they make money like most of us cannot even fathom...
we make dribs and drabs on it they make untold fortunes....And every year there are record profits the markets is up and all of that and the stocks soar...and when profit is maxed out and recession is about to hit they are already out of the stock leaving the average schmoe to take the hit....So after the collapse they can use their untold fortunes to buy more stocks at the reduced price and start the process over again..
inherantly evil..
Sorry you feel so negative about the market, Peter. I have trouble reconciling your negatives against the positives I see in my portfolio, my wife's parents portfolio and that of my dear deceased parents. ???
I find myself hoping to make the "dribs and drabs" my great uncles have made in that "inherently evil" market ;D
oh you can make money at it....Getting in after a huge collapse and enjoy the ride as it recovers...Or get on board for something like the tech stock boom...
But it is a really tricky kettle of fish...And many americans lose out... I guess one of the largest problems with the stock market is that America many times resorts to putting money in the market when they have no business doing so...The first rule of the market is to only invest what you can afford to lose... With the economy being so bad and the disappearance of the middle class many in the market with stocks cannot afford to lose their investments and are rolling the dice and hoping for the best.
this system has replaced one where everyone in America that had a job could afford to live and save money...And then branch out with those savings to things like home ownership owning a business or stocks....We now are told to invest in the market whether or not we own our houses free and clear...We are told that it is a good thing to take the social security money to boost the market....all of this violates the most sacred rule of the market...Only invest what you can afford to lose!
And don the market might rebound and gain in 30 years... but not many people can afford to throw their future into something and wait 30 years for it to mature.
What is going to happen to the market when the american dollar collapses and is devalued like the peso? I would rather something like an extra piece of land or an extra house to rent for the future. What really amazes me is when people do not have their cars or houses paid for and they are investing in the market...The thinking is that they have a great rate on the mortgage and that the money they set aside for the stock market will outperform in stocks instead of being used to pay off their houses. To me debt is evil under any circumstances...And you take unnecessary risks
When I bought my house my bank guy tried to talk me into borrowing against my houses equity to invest...I laughed at the guy..He has a whole speech prepared with graphs and the like to show why it made sense to mortgage my house to invest in stocks...
And I am not dumb I can add there is a way that it can work...But that type of investment strategy leaves little room for economic downturn...If there is a hiccup on the stock market or a bad recession then you are in trouble with that sort of scenario. The more we read about the economy in America we see it is in trouble. The trade deficit is horrendous! The debt level is out of control and it has gotten so bad it is weakening the american dollar which kills the buying power for imported goods...All of this is a chain reaction type of thing that when it gets going will spiral out of control...
I do not plan to owe any money when this happens or to have any money in the markets.... My houses might go up and down in value depending on the market but they will be paid for so it will not matter much to me....And they will always have a certain value for me.
I do not recommend to people to have multiple houses... but I sure do recommend eliminating all debt... pay off the house the car and then if you have extra money and want to put some into the markets fine... good luck... but do not count on the market to assist your retirement if you have any debts....
just calling it like I see it
Debt is evil under any circumstances but you borrowed against your home to buy more rentals... Isn't that taking on debt? ??? (BTW, we don't owe a dime on any of our vehicles, or our home)
QuoteAnd don the market might rebound and gain in 30 years...
Did you look at Don's graph. The worst crash in history (one that affected the entire world, not just the US) took
25 years to recover. Nothing since then, during our lifetimes, has been more than a couple. (http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/fragend/confused-smiley-013.gif)
I'm in the market because I see no better way to increase the value of my retirement (with what I have to invest)....BUT...IF I were to invest it in land around here, that'd be a better investment. IF I had made the same dollar investments in land here that I made in the market at the same time...20 years ago....there's no comparison as the the amount of money I'd have now.
BUT...who knew the "rim" land would be so valuable now. For generations, my family has lived here and the land that was on the bluffs was worthless...no power...no water...no sewage.....BUT NOW ...all that is there and the land that was worthless even 10 years ago is the most valuable here. A few hundred dollars 10 years ago and millions now.
Who knew?????
As to the market, unless there are very stiff controls put on the hedge funds and their managers, it will crash. There's more money to be made by destroying our economy than by building it up. I've lost money several times by shorts destroying a good company.
No one seems to like to build anything anymore...they'd rather tear down.
As to the market, unless there are very stiff controls put on the hedge funds and their managers, it will crash. There's more money to be made by destroying our economy than by building it up. I've lost money several times by shorts destroying a good company.
No one seems to like to build anything anymore...they'd rather tear down.
You are so right, Williet... if anyone followed what happened to Enron & some of the other huge corporations at the turn of the century (hey, that sounds like a long time... :o ) The same thing is happening with the stock market as then... the hedge funds are one of the problems.
You take a company - something solid - then you break it off into derivatives, hedge funds, etc etc - pretty soon what is traded is really nothing but it is still looking good in the market until the house of cards falls.
This is even happening in gold - the central banks lease gold to each other to keep th prices down. They both keep the gold on their books as assets - so it looks like there is double the amount of gold. They also buy futures to hedge against the future increases in gold for when they "have to pay it back" - these leases are for months to years. They are selling paper shares in gold now - and a lot of people are going to be severely disappointed when they find out they're not really worth anything after awhile.
The bottom line with a corporation... make money for the shareholders - if it takes "creative" financing, cooking the books, whatever, there's lots of people highly skilled in the art of "bookkeeping" now-a-days :(
There's the chance in making a lot of money but there's the chance, when the company or real estate market, etc goes down, you lose everything. I have my 'Thrift Plan" or what you would call 401K retirement in the market - most now in "safer" places like gov't bonds but since the gov't is more than likely technically bankrupt
http://www.minyanville.com/assets/File/Kotlikoff_USBankruptcy_paper%5B1%5D.pdf
http://www.augustreview.com/news_commentary/economy/u.s._accounting_data_may_obscure_impending_collapse_2006091817/
I question whether I'll ever see the money by the time I'm able to withdraw the funds without penalty in 2 years... I often thought about taking it all out, paying the penalties, paying off all debts & investing it in more land... I don't have a real positive outlook on gov't or the economy... but I'm not fearful of the future as this isn't my final home... ;D
Peter,
I looked at several solar stocks and wondered about AKNS. I have watched First Solar climb up, but it's way to expensive now.....Have you checked out AKNS?
I don't know anything about it other than looking over the profile fro 30 seconds. It appears to be a solar service stock and I couldn't believe it finished up 1.40.
It's pretty new to have climbed that far...but so are a lot of the solars. I have it on my watch list and will look at it hard over the weekend.
I sold my solarfun yesterday while it was riding up on their contract news and made enough to buy a few ounces of gold.
I hate days like this. Even though the jobs report didn't have any ties to my stocks, they still pulled back with the market. That triggers stop losses and they drop like a rock. It'll take two weeks for them to pass this weeks high again. d*
Erin
I did not mortgage my house for a rental property at all....
I am not renting out anything at the moment...
I am in the process of buying 50 acres I will be paying with cash...Cash I have here at the house...And then once I build a house on a piece of land I will rent out the house I live in now... there is a 3 bedroom upstairs and a 3 bedroom downstairs if I want to rent it out that way Should be able to pull 1200 a month out of renting the place.
I got a deal on this house because I saved up my money and when the bank just wanted their investment back on it I was able to jump on it....that is why I bought a house for 58,000 that was worth double that the day I took the keys. and after spending 25,000 on it and some elbow grease it will be worth approximately 180,000 We are going to hold onto it for a few years to let the housing market rebound and then it should bring even more...The house beside us sold last week for $140 and it was on a smaller lot(half the land) with a smaller house...it was not brick...
It does not have to be houses... it can be antique furniture, cars, building supplies, office equipment... whatever... if you save your money and are ready to buy you can find amazing deals and easily double your money on the investment... It does not sound smart or sexy like some wal street investment...But the math does not lie.
I am not a rocket scientist...just a guy who saved up a little money so when my ship came in I could pay for it. The possibilities are endless for people that want to buy sell and trade with real world goods that have a stable value...Learn about a certian type of good... save up some dough and start buying to resell...
We furnished our home by going to antique auctions and buying hardwood furniture that needed a little TLC.. refinishing sanding... glue the drawers or whatever... If you wanted to make a good living you could just buy furniture like that and to the minor repairs and refinish it yourself and then put it for sale all fixed up...When it would be worth a substantial amount of money...
I would rather take a hardwood chest of drawers built in Vermont 80 years ago over a stock any day... I can buy those and double my money on them over and over and over with little to no risk at all.... Stocks have risks and every generation there is a hiccup
the hardwood chest of drawers is just an example... but you hopefully should be getting the point. Erin I have turned my buy and sell classic auto part business into a 5 figure monthly income...And if I was a great businessman or super motivated I could make twice what I am earning now...
There is no way ever you will convince me that I can safely make that kind of return on my money with the stock market...not without insider trading information that is.
America by and large work 40 hour work weeks and then they go home and watch tv or whatever the rest of the time...When anyone with a little thought can double or triple their income buying selling fixing things that would be otherwise thrown away... be it home appliances, electronics, furniture, cars, antiques...Heck I even know a guy who makes a couple hundred grand profit a year getting stuff out of the dump... it is insane! Myself I never started to really make any money until I started buying cars from the scrap metal yard...the almost perfect cars people throw away..I pay twice their value in scrap and they are worth 5-6 times what I pay for them....
We live in a wasteful society... learn to turn something that is mostly thrown out into something you can get money for and you will be rich without risk...
Look at all the veggie diesel guys out there making a fortune converting cars.... collecting fuel... processing free cooking oil into pure biodiesel that they can sell.
I was never impressed with the stock market... and the older I get the more I see it as an evil system created by the rich to make money off the middle class.
Just watched a 5 part video on YouTube titled "National Debt: To whom do we owe it?" @ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30-WtZTH06o&feature=related
Excellent review of the Federal Reserve, debt, central banks, wars, etc - watch out, it's a preacher - Rod Parsley, he was encouraging his congregation to stay out of debt, quit paying the bankers... "owe no man anything" but there is very little Bible thumping - in fact, really none - just history & info that should be common knowledge.
You're doing the right thing, Benevolance [cool]
benevolance, I get the distinct impression you live in a much wealthier part of the world than I. ;)
PS: I'm not sure about anyone else, but I'm not looking at the market as an income. It's an investment just like my "high interest" savings account, except that it yields better. (http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/fragend/confused-smiley-013.gif)
I look it that way too Erin. And Benovelance is right too. It is risky. Stocks like the solar are speculative and I don't invest money I can't afford to lose.
The largest percentage of investment is in land. second in timber and a close 3rd is in municipal bonds that pay a guaranteed 5% tax exempt interest.
Then come the spec stocks that I have. I have done well so far with them but they do swing. I lost about 30 grand during yesterdays fiasco. OTOH, I made 155 thousand up until yesterday so I won't complain.
Other things go into the retirement pot also. Gold which is not a high gainer but is safe. I also buy gemstones that are rare. In some respects they are better than gold because they appreciate much more. Forging and gunmaking all go into the matress also.
I'm thinking about buying a saw mill now ???
Oh....I don't have any mortgages or car loans either. I do not like being in debt although it has been a necessary evil in days gone bye.
I invest in equipment and my business, Peter.
I already invested in a sawmill and think it is a good investment. Invested 3500 -- cut 15000 worth of lumber over 4 years. Can also cut for others in trade. Seems OK to me.
What kind of mill do you have Glenn?
I have a Wood Wizard. It is a band saw. Push through by hand - 10 hp saw motor.
It will take about a 30" x 20' log.
Here's a link to info on it
http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=1166.msg10305#msg10305
Glenn
I agree that when you spend money on the business it is a good investment because you usually always make the money back in increased profits and you usually increase the net worth of the business as well... Plus it is a tax write off buying equipment for the business..
And Erin the low state in South Carolina is hardly a economic hotbed in America... My point was applicable to any part of america..There is money out there just floating around if you want to make it...Anywhere there are people there are used goods to buy fix and re-sell....Anywhere there are people there is good viable products being thrown away...
Look at half the people here that have built their own house...Having the basic building skills to build a house would allow these same people to have a night and week-end small job business where they could make as much or more money on the side with their second job as they do at the office or wherever they work in the daytime.
And yes some people look at stocks like a high interest bank account but this is folly...The money in the bank is guaranteed it cannot decrease in Value... no risk.... so the stock market should not be thought of as a bank at all....It is not the same thing at all. The bank pays less because they guarantee security...
If you want to invest money you can do some research and invest in a local business...There are web sites where people with great ideas and products are looking for help getting their businesses going... If you do your homework and avoid hasty decisions you can make a killing in profit and minimize your risk at the same time... I would invest in America and my fellow man in the local community before I put a dime in the stock market
As far as I am concerned that is what United we Stand is supposed to mean....
Glenn, is that the one Northern sells?
Anybody else in DRYS and wish they were not! ???
Coulda ... woulda ... shoulda ... got out a few weeks ago.
QuoteIf you want to invest money you can do some research and invest in a local business...
;D I did. Cabela's
is local.
Quotethe low state in South Carolina is hardly a economic hotbed
I didn't think you'd understand... Let me try to explain:
It doesn't have to be an "economic hotbed". But it
is wealthier than my part of the world. Our median household income is $27K. Where I live, people
drive their junky cars (no emissions laws). There isn't much that goes to the junkyard because anything that's still good enough to use is re-sold. (Many of us have nothing
but used furniture, for example) And so on. Your community might be poor, but I'll bet the entire region in a 100 mile radius, is not...
We simply do not have the population you do, which translates to fewer jobs, and a lot less money (particularly the disposable kind). I have to drive
90 miles to find a town with more than a couple thousand people. My entire county is about 1000 square miles and only has 2200 people (and falling).
It's the same reason real estate is probably the dumbest investment you can make around here. Seriously. Like Don said, real estate is only as good as the local economy. (Do a little Googling on "rural flight." Over half of the counties in my state have been
losing population for decades... My kids are only 12 miles from their grade school, but when they start 7th grade, they'll be 35 miles)
Granted, I've never been east of Iowa, but I can see that there are a
lot of towns packed into your state. And towns mean people. Like you said, anywhere there're people, there are used goods. We don't have much of the people commodity, either. ;)
To put it another way:
The western
half of my state (where I live) is roughly the same size as your entire state. In the space that your state puts 4 million people, my half has about 400,000. Ie, we have about 10% of the population you do. Now, even given that your state is like most in that most of the population is gathered in the urban centers, you don't have to go near as far to
find an urban center.
Pictures! Pop. density map for SC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:South_Carolina_population_map.png) compared to Pop. density map for NE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Nebraska_population_map.png) I guarantee that what you think of as "rural" is nothing like what I think of as "rural."
Anyway, hopefully you understand that what works in the well-populated East coast might not necessarily work elsewhere. (For an even sharper point, I could've written this as though I still lived on the Standing Rock reservation in South Dakota. lol)
And if you think the market is too risky, that's fine. But that's just your opinion and a lot of people disagree with you. Myself included. For long term investments in my area, it's one of the better choices.
PS: You think this--
QuoteThere are web sites where people with great ideas and products are looking for help getting their businesses going... If you do your homework and avoid hasty decisions you can make a killing in profit and minimize your risk at the same time...
is a safer investment than a well-established company like CocaCola or McDonalds? Or even than a diversified indexing fund?
I guess I'm still not seeing your logic... ???
I worry a bit about helping small guys that just need money to make an idea work. Most of them still end up needing more money.
A old friend years ago got a great wood stove business going but got to paying his not too bright kids way too much money and in a few years went broke. Hard to watch an investment like that. I'll stick with my own ventures.
I think you could get yourself into more trouble, more quickly, with backing local attempts at starting businesses, than any other investment opportunity. YMMV
Anybody else in DRYS and wish they were not!
Not DRYS but it's been a tough market. I did sell 2/3 of FSLR on Friday and ASTI this morning while it was up a dollar. Bought back in on both at near the days low today
We'll see how the rest of the week goes.
I just looked at DRYS. Not a good day and taking a quick look at the charts, it doesn't look like it's found it's bottom yet. IT'S doing Ok in after hours and that always makes me nervous. I expect it'll be good when it splits AND bounces off the bottom but it may take some time.
Yep, Isn't it strange how the markets can fall so low during the day and then seem to jump after hours (when the hedge fund managers play) and then crash again the next morning? I've seen more than one solid good company driven down by shorts and hedge funds.
I wonder how that seems to happen? I mean IF the market is REALLY in trouble and business is REALLY that bad in this country ..... Why is it only in trouble during regular office hours when most middle class Americans can trade?
My money is with Fidelity and when I make a trade, it can take up to 5 days before they allow me to trade again on the same stock. I miss out on tons of jumps because I can't catch the up swing and I loose a bunch on the stops (that I'm affraid not to have in place due to shorts driving everything down as low as they can). It looks to me like these massive swings are by design so little folks like me will stop out as much as possible.....miss the swing up and loose our money. It's not just a game to many people....Don't play with money you can't loose, OK ..... the economy of the country isn't supposed to be a game.
Maybe if there were some MATURITY in these traders on the street and just a small amount of PATIENCE....we could see the market line out some. As long as there are screwed up, scared children playing like floor traders ....buying and selling as fast as they can because they are afraid they might loose their half million bonus, I don't see much change. I'd fire the lot and rehire some 50 to 70 year olds who understand business and the economy....who understand their decisions effect the NATION and the WORLD.
I read the headlines every day while listening to the opening bell and it goes something like this....
OPEN...GREEN and GOOD...things are looking up..on track to be a good day.
HEADLINE...somebody somewhere said this or that company is only going to make 75% profit instead of the 80% profit the Street had hoped for......within the first 30 min of business.
MARKET goes RED...RED within minutes...the market drops like a brick....
Later...usually around 2 hours after the open....somebody somewhere says...maybe it's not too bad in China...or Mexico is sunny today... or a leader in some little country bought a new car.....
MARKET turns GREEN within seconds of that headline.....
And so on.....I really believe these children on the floor are listening to what media talking heads say BEFORE they make their trades. There's NO WAY a ship stuck in the mud in Africa can cause the economy of the world to drop within minutes of the news breaking.....or a bird crapping on Bush in France can cause the price of oil to go up.....
The whole things a JOKE! BUT it's OUR economy...not just a few folks hoping to win big like their in Vegas. It's very sad to watch this nation being destroyed by the lack of responsible mature adults in almost EVERY facet of our lives.....But that's what this country has raised for 30 years.......It's come home to us and there may be nothing left when the kids get tired of playing......
The tail (media/government) is wagging the dog (the market and our economy)...AND killing the middle class and eventually the whole country in the process....
another rant.....I need to get off the computer today.
I understand exactly what your saying. Th hedge funds drive me nuts too. It's hard for a small investor to get around them. You can play them to your advantage but it means watching every tick and that will make you want to scream in short order.
One reason I get nervous over large after hours sales is that usually means they are getting ready for a run. They buy it and then sell on the bid the next day, as the pice drops they cover their shorts, let the price drift back while they buy back and run it down again.
It's impossible to out bid the computerized trading.
I swear that thee economy might actually heal itself if they got rid of all the funds. Almost 40% of ASTI's float was short today.
YEP, That's the way I see it. There is NO real problem with the economy. It IS a little slower than it was, but who could expect anything else...loss of REAL jobs and gas prices up so high...ect. BUT...if the hedge funds were to be made illegal, just stop ALL of them...or at the very least limit their ability to have such HUGE sway in the market.....our economy would be just fine.
The funds do exactly what you're saying and many folks in them are making money both ways.....it's not that I'm jealous or would want to be in the funds...I believe they're un patriotic.They are destroying the American economy. SURE, a few folks will get wealthy, buy as they swing these stocks for their gain, people are being let go at their work, good companies become worthless in a few days, products are being shipped to other countries where there are no hedge funds to manipulate .....it's the worst thing that's ever happened to our overall economy.
They shout FREE MARKET and at the same time use bad regulations to allow these funds to bleed our GOOD economy dry.......
Look at DRYS for example (even though it's not an American company, the example holds true)....DRYS is one of the two largest dry bulk shippers in the world....the shorts and hedge funds have found it now. It's up and then down ... to extremes.....In the time it takes a single ship to deliver a single load, the VALUE of the company can double or be cut by half....for NO reason. NOTHING changes, just the manipulation of the hedge funds and the greed of the shorts.
No one can tell me that a business that's based on ocean going freight ships that can take weeks to make a single trip should swing in value as much as DRYS can in ONE day. It takes weeks to make a single run. It takes months to get a single contract. The contracts are signed and the ships start their trip. On the day the 5 year contract is signed (and it's in the news), the stock jumps up. The next day it falls to the bottom because there's no contract that day. WHAT ABOUT THE CONTRACT FROM YESTERDAY?????
It's still a good business! It's still doing it's business. The market traders just haven't seen it on the news this morning, so they jump out of the stock .... it drops and feeds the shorts (those folks who profit from a companys failure). Eventually, the owners will have to sell because the value of the company has been drained by hedge funds with all their extreme manipulations. It isn't looked at as a "good" investment anymore because the shorts have bled the liquidity from it, so it's busted into tiny bits that truely are worthless and we all loose a good company that's providing good service.
These funds should be illegal or at the very least regulated into practices that are good for a stable market and solid economy. I think they're the single worst influence on our economy.
Seems the unlimited money printing is a problem to me. It is robbing everyone of the value of money they make for retirement by whatever means. Soon it will take a fist full of dollars to buy a roll of TP.
The new argument is that the landslide in the value of the dollar is good for America as it will encourage outsiders to invest in (read buy up) America. As other currencies gain in value and the dollar plummets, look for more of our country to be sold off.
Well, IF the plan is to replace the dollar with a North American "Euro" type currency...what better way than to make the dollar worth nothing. IF one plans to replace a system, the best way is to destroy the current system so folks will have no faith in it.
I agree with the printing of money thing. Instead of holding these banks responsible for making bad business deals...just print more money and loan it to them. Our money has been worthless for many years...the pipe dream is just bursting. I've always heard it would do this, I was just wishing it would be in 50 or so years. The Bush/Cheney team just went full force and the process got ahead of its self......
It was probably well planned.
Don't assume for one minute that the big boys have the interests of the little boys at heart.
Follow the money -- in this case the big money.
Has it occurred to you that the reason for the huge push to go to a cashless society is to change from one standard to another. Hell, if you don't have any currency, you don't mind the change.
Today was another rough one. Thankfully ASTI and ASTIZ were strong enough to finish the day up.
I found a dirt bike I wanted but promised myself I wouldn't buy it unless I had extra money. This morning when ASTIZ was doen, I bought 2000 shares at 11.80. I set a limit sell at 12.80 and it went to 12.99 before pulling back.
Guess I get a new dirt bike. ;D
Great move ;D
Enjoy the bike...... [cool]
Some money info - gold looks good -- especially if you can find it. :) ...and it doesn't cost more to find than it's value. [crz]
http://www.moneyandmarkets.com/Issues.aspx?Gold-and-Oil-Hit-All-Time-High-Prices-3
Sooooo?????
Ya'll think we've found a bottom to this mess?
I don't think we've hit the bottom yet. Feds ar printing money faster than toilet paper. The dollar has to be devalued by the ton to keep up with the national debt.
Soon we'll all be millionaires, but it will take half a million to buy a loaf of bread. Welcome to Mexico. No -- I think it is just starting to get bad.
I'm with Glenn.
The fed lowering the rate another 50 basis points today has shot gold up to $936 at the moment. Most people on wall street dont think the dollar could collapse. Thats what people said about the Titanic, that it was unsinkable. Most of the lifeboats from the Titanic were a little over half full. The boats could have saved 1100, yet only 700 were saved.
People just don't want to believe the warning signs. I believe were not even close to the bottom.
I have seen gold predicted to go from $2000 to $2975 in a couple of places.
The US economy is the Titanic. At ths moment, the iceberg is bouncing up against the side and plugging the hole. The ice is melting.
Maybe we can sell the melted ice to California. 8)
I don't think we are at bottom yet. I'm not sure where it's going to go or when. IF the fed rate cuts were to fix the mortgage problem, we could stabilize the market. It won't fix it though.
We have a drunken sailor in this country. There's no foundation or direction. I can predict what a stock will do for the next day or week and in a few cases, year......but the economy as a whole is just waiting to fall apart.
Quote from: ScottA on January 30, 2008, 05:06:13 PM
Maybe we can sell the melted ice to California. 8)
Then, you are aware of the 2 billion dollar Katrina fiasco, Scott, plus the 12.5 million for storage, which in a round about way benefited former Military and political figures with business including Dan Quayle's company. Trucks couldn't even get into New Orleans. Big business still transfered money from the public to their pockets and the Blacks of New Orleans were liquidated as planned.
Maybe we should all invest in FEMA.
Now -- the iceberg ice -- yeah -- sell it to LA.
Exxon and Chevron both see profits soar
By Elizabeth Douglass, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
February 2, 2008
Exxon Mobil Corp. shattered its own record as the world's most profitable publicly traded corporation, as rising oil prices helped the company bring in better-than-ever income and revenue for the fourth quarter and 2007.
Irving, Texas-based Exxon's net income rose 3% to $40.6 billion in 2007, surpassing its 2006 record of $39.5 billion.
Chevron Corp. also posted strong earnings despite lower production and lagging profit from making and selling gasoline. Full-year profit at the San Ramon, Calif.-based oil company jumped 9% to $18.7 billion.
That was happy news for company shareholders, but bad news on the public relations front. The robust results, booked amid high gasoline prices and a wobbling U.S. economy, irritated consumer groups and politicians, reigniting calls to eliminate oil industry subsidies.
http://www.latimes.com/business/investing/la-fi-oil2feb02,1,5140747.story
also Shell 4Q Net Profit Rises 60 Percent to $8.47 Billion http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080131/earns_netherlands_shell.html?.v=1
Gold Price Rigging by Central Banks.
http://bb.bbboy.net/alaskagoldforum-viewthread?forum=2&thread=437
Although the "stocks" side of my 2008 investments are a little light I have went for a more short term investment. With the price of food on the rise and an effort to boost the economy I purchased something which I hope will turn 40-50% return in 5-6 months. Initial investment of $1.04 # @ avg 355#. Anticipated 200-225# gain with a resale of $1.10-$1.15 per # . Even with a break-even in the price per # the weight gain itself will yield 45-50% return. Just food for thought with anyone that has 10-20 acs which they could use is the best return on a small investment on the market today that I am aware of without a large capital outlay.
(https://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd161/redoverfarm/hightop/farm/100_1667-1.jpg)
(https://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd161/redoverfarm/hightop/farm/100_1668-1.jpg)
I've never owned a live cow, only parts of dead ones. :D
Is that price difference simply a projected, hoped for price, or is there a per pound difference between calves and ready for market?
Do you have to supplement their feed or is it strictly free range? Up in the mountains as soon as the snow and the risk for new snow is gone there'll be a lot of cattle turned loose to range. The ranchers pay something for the right, but it's a pretty good deal if most of them live through to fall. There are always some lost to predators or lightning. Of course they have the expense of trucking them in and out, checking on them, etc. during the summer.
I have the room but not the fences or the time, and then there's the problem of having to get the cows with short legs on one side to walk on these 40% grades. ???
Glenn you could order them from West Virginia as they are already designed with that lateral shortage. Some people here are like that too from hillbilly genetics. ;D
You could always put up a few strands of electric and get a solar fence charger.
The price that is projected is the actual selling price of that catagory of livestock now. I managed to P/U these for less. I keep checkingthe USDA Livestock reports for the area ( WV & Va) and I can tell what they are going for . Even if the price is not higher in the fall and they are sold at the purchase price the additional weight gain will bring in a profit. The smaller the cattle the more weight gain they will have. The higher weight the less $$. I have been lucky that even with 500-550# yearlings will put on 150-200#'s in the summer but the cost on fall sells would be less. They are usually shipped to feed lots. The biggest weight gain is up to 700#. After that it is slow going. The price of that over 700 was 80-90 cents compared to the smaller stuff.
Low maintenance for me as they just range graze. Some initial cost for "sweet feed" to get them used to people and coming into the corral. Periodicly through the summer as in the fall they have to be rounded up and loaded so it is sort of like the "carrot" thing. Some initial vacinations before turning them out.
If there is a downside it would be that don't go away from home and leave your wife to herd them back into the fence while you are gone. >:(
Don we have a little thing here called "grazing allotments" which is land owned by the NF. They put them out on bids each year or some are 10 years agreements. They are put out with a maximum # of cattle that can run on that size of land. For an example there is one that joins my property with is 25 acs. The minimum bid was $4.25 per unit (cow & calf) which runs from May 1 to Oct 1. This lot is considered to hold 10 units (10 calves and 10 cows). I bid it out at $8.50. Grazing is hard to find and the highest bid was $16.50 per unit. In essence his cost for one season use will be $825. Too high for my blood.
Redover, you make me jealous every time I see pics of your place.
Been watching these, LVLT, and GTE. Small caps. Nuff said.
PS Nice Spread Redover!! :)
I wish I was at the farm full time RF. I think you may have the top investment of the year!
If the markets tank, we all have to eat our investments. Yours taste better than mine. ;D ;D ;D ;D c*
redover,
I have been considering some cows for the 18 acres I have but I still have some obstacles (mostly learning related) to overcome before I do so. I do not live out there, so I am not sure what needs to happen to ensure the safety and health of any animals I leave by themselves. Fencing is good, grass is good, there are two ponds so I assume water is ok. Can you suggest any books on the subject for a first timer? I am mostly interested in obtaining agricultural exemption for taxes and keeping the grass down low. Getting a decent investment return is just a bonus for me.
Aside from that, puts on homebuilders were great last fall, puts on financial institutions were good this winter. Both of those are looking pretty lean now as those equities are moving in channel and trading instead of trending now. For this summer I think puts on the retailers are going to be lucrative as sales are slowing and discretionary spending constricts.
muldoon I am sure there are books on the subject but I was self taught and grew up around the farming industry. A good place to start would be with your local university extension agent. There is also a Farm Bureau that has a message forrum to which you could visit.
As far as health & welfare. If you have good fence, water and enough grass to support ( acs vs. head) then you are good to go. If you buy locally then chances are that you will not get any head that are shipped in for the livestock sales and they will not be prone to black-leg and other diseases. They are a grazing animal and should be vaccinated as such being wormed. Either injection or epideral application such as "Ivomec" that is just poured onto the hide(spinal area). I also vaccinate for pink eye. These precautions are done before turning them out for the first time. Then a mineral block or granular for salt intake during the summer. Then about the last of July or first of August I put a wormer block out as the previous worm application has worn off. This will ensure that they continue to add weight.
You could just check on them periodically to make sure that the fence has not got broken down, water supply good and the grass is still ample to graze.
I think I would start with the written information and then visit a couple local farmers. They can give you alot of insight and guidance. They might want to put you to work if you catch them at hay season or something else. Generally farmers are good people and always willing to lend a hand. As far as transporting them generally depending on the type of friendship you can develope they would probably be willing to transport to & fro for you at a reasonable rate or lend a trailer for a DIY. Go to a couple of livestock sales just to get an idea of the breed, size and price. Just stay away from Dairy cattle as they generally do not put the weight on or the resale value is considerably lower. Get beef cattle breeds.
If you have any further q feel free. I don't have all the answers but I can probably tell you what not to do.
John
The End of Democracy
London, England
Friday, May 9, 2008 http://www.dailyreckoning.com/
---------------------
*** The war between the 'flations drags on...nobody is going to cut back on spending unless they are forced to...
*** Inflation has become globalized – and soon it will come in, not as a kitty, but as a mean panther...
*** In the United States, you are on the pot-holed highway to Hell...and more thoughts, insights and advice to take you into the weekend!
The markets didn't reveal anything very telling yesterday. The Dow rose 52 points. The dollar held steady. Oil remained near its all time record of $123. And gold went up $10.
So far, things have worked out more or less as we expected. The "war" between inflation and deflation has produced plenty of noise and casualties...but no decisive victory.
We guessed that the Fed would be far more interested in fighting a deflationary recession than in fighting an inflationary boom. America's central bankers see their mission in three parts – to protect the value of the dollar...to protect the banks...and finally to make sure that all politicians are re-elected and all Fed governors are reappointed. This last part of their mission leads them to ignore the first part. In order to help the career prospects of politicians and their Fed appointees, the latter must try to keep the economy moving forward – even to its own destruction. In the present context, that means holding off badly needed corrections. Consumers, government and business are all deep in debt. But none of them are going to cut back on spending unless they have to. A correction would force the issue; so, it is to be avoided at all costs. And the most direct and immediate cost is what is supposed to be the Fed's number one priority...the U.S. dollar.
We guessed that inflation would push up commodity, oil, gold and consumer prices...more than it would help the real economy and stock prices. That seems to have happened too. Commodities, oil and gold have all soared. The economy, meanwhile, is growing more slowly than the population. And stocks rallied and retreated – and ended up about where they were 10 years ago.
But what about the kind of inflation people worry about? What about consumer price inflation? How come consumer prices have not gone up more?
The Daily Reckoning PRESENTS: Modern democracy, like modern capitalism, is a self-limiting ailment...and this fact is becoming clearer to the United States with each passing day. Bill Bonner explains... con't @ http://www.dailyreckoning.com/
THE END OF DEMOCRACY
by Bill Bonner
This week marked a milestone in the Western history. On the 5th of May 1789, the Estates General convened in Versailles.
In the popular mind, if there is one, mankind has been on a steady upward slant. From single-celled amoeba to Homo ergaster to Barack Obama...from the chubby carved madonnas found in caves to Caravaggio's Madonna found in Sant'Agostino to Madonna herself, whereabouts unknown...from crossing the Red Sea out of bondage in Egypt to crossing the Rubicon to crossing the Delaware, it has been a march from the dark depths of history into the sunlight of modern democratic capitalism and consumer credit.
'It's all good,' as they say in America.
Yes, of course, there are occasional instances of backsliding...even a Roosevelt or a Robespierre could be born with a prehensile tail. But the progress of the race continued. Tribal chiefs in skins gave way to emperors with purple on their backs. Wars, revolutions...one regime was replaced by a better one; tyranny butted heads with freedom until, finally, in the Year of Our Lord, 1989, the Soviet Union collapsed...leaving only one system resplendent, triumphant... modern capitalist democracy. con't @ http://www.dailyreckoning.com/