I'm not trying to start a rant, though I am sure capable of it today. d*
I need to work on my "Calling the Building Department" skills, and maybe you folks have some pointers. I understand that our inspection and permitting process is designed to make our buildings safe. However, I am sure there is a better way of getting accurate advice and getting through the red tape.
For example, I once called to see what I needed for my 18'x24' shed. They wanted engineered plans and a grand or so for an ag permit. When I asked politely, "Um, for a shed?" they corrected the advice and I only had to pay $191.
Today I asked about yurts. They want permits for that. $2,300 to permit it residential. It's a tent. The foolish platform is even temporary.
So hit me, folks, I can take it. How can I do this right (I don't like playing fast and loose) and ask the right questions? What did you do right? What was the dumbest thing an owner/builder did you ever heard of?
PS: Tomorrow they switch over to the International Building Code. Should I sell my place now? :D
First thing, Drew, you need to adjust your thinking.
While they are supposedly for safety -they do set a minimum standard to build to - you can probably do better than that but may not be allowed to. In my opinion, the major function of the permit process is to assure government control over you and to insure that all the interested agencies get to tax you for their portion of your paycheck or property.
Safety? hmm ... maybe but I can show you a ton of places that had permits, failed in a snow storm (DMV shed -would have been engineered also -failed with 9 inches of snow), 4 year old house -- code approved wiring caught fire and burned it down.
Old houses have been standing for hundreds of years built by master craftsmen. They didn't need a building and safety department. Some of the new complex engineered structures may benefit. Inspection is nominal only in many cases. Many times on my jobs the inspectors don't even walk in to look at the project -- others are the inspectors from hell. Many of them don't even know what they want themselves -- it's many times a power trip -- play along with them -- pretend they are doing the most important part of the project -- you'll get along well with them.
Just be sure to pay all the fees and taxes -- in reality that is the most important part.
Oh -- and be sure to ask about the guarantee they give you --- for all the money you pay them they should guarantee there will be no problems, right? hmm
This is a sore spot for me. For one, I live in WA and while it might not be as bad as Cali, it's not too much better I'll warrant.
I understand the concern for fire code etc within city limits, I'll even except that Cities should have that right but out in a rural area on several acres where you can really only hurt yourself I'd think that in the land of the free and the home of the brave you'd be free enough to do just that if you're actually brave enough.
I have a well I've been drinking from, it's 205 feet deep and while I was told I had to have it inspected I was also told not to worry becuase it's deep enough that it won't be contaminated. So let me get this straight, I have to pay you to tell me it's safe to drink the water I already know it's safe to drink?
I asked if I could have a private company do the testing and was told no. Huh? Why not? I trust them after all -- but I also trust that I am not sick.
So, I have to put in a septic even though I'm not going to use it. I can put in a privy if it's more then 100 feet from the well but they won't allow it -- though there are regs for it -- hmmm.....I also have to have a grey water drain field and tank by state law but they've superceeded that and decided that since I can put a grey water system in they will allow me to do that as long as it is exactly constructed just like a 2 bedroom home septic system - complete....nice.
Oh ya, and if I pay the money for all of this I can have the privilege of paying an additional $600 or more so they can tell me that yes, the little house plans are ok and yes, the house is fine when I'm done -- which I already know and knew thanks.
Oh and by the way, no they don't like double 2x4 walls they prefer 2x6 and even though it's a cabin it cannot have 2x4 walls...
But I can build a deck, put two 10x12 buildings on either side of it and don't need a permit for that.
On a side note, my neighbor (about a mile away by road) told me he's been there 30 years, never permitted anything, and they leave him alone....though they raise his land taxes each time he improves it.
Nice.
Being honest is tiring. It's time for these folks to realize that we do in fact, live in America and as long as we're not harming our neighbors (which they cannot find unless we do and they prove us guilty of it) then they need to leave us alone. Period!
That is why I like living where I live, there are no codes or building permits. All they want is if you are going to put in a septic system to do a perk test.
Quote from: emcvay on September 22, 2009, 02:32:39 AM
Being honest is tiring. It's time for these folks to realize that we do in fact, live in America and as long as we're not harming our neighbors (which they cannot find unless we do and they prove us guilty of it) then they need to leave us alone. Period!
You just stated 80% of why Old Virginia exits.
Being an owner/builder I hate having to comply with building codes. They are written by industries and for industries. That being said, I can see a benefit. I would say almost 95-98% of the people in this country don't build there own houses and they are built by many unscrupulous people who would cut a corner if they could for profit. Nobody would know the difference without ripping the walls off. I have worked on a lot of houses that had things falling apart because they were never built to code to begin with.
I will state right off that I am not a people person. It is difficult for me to not fight something when challenged. I still try other ways even against my nature. I have found that bureaucrats know their way around a bureaucracy. A little "bribery" can go a long way. Now I am not promoting graft of public officials, but showing up with some sweets or food on a non busy day can get a lot of attention and may get some great advice on how to navigate the system. It can be a lot cheaper than a $2300 permit. Doing a little political work or contributing to campaigns can get some attention too. Sometimes just going to talk to a local representative who has control over the bureaucracy of the building department can get some cooperation. Just be careful going over someone's head can get backlash.
This thread works into a pre General Assembly season, story I've been working on. It follows Old Va's "we owm the land, we make the rules" format.
In some Virginia localities the police are even using building inspectors to get around search warrants.
I'd like permission to quote (without names ) some of the posts on this thread. I of course need John's permission also.
Private Property Right is something we consider a priority and lobby for changes every year.
Quote away!
I agree with the comments above about owner/builders being able to do what they want but here's the rub. I've been working on a remodle the past couple of weeks. The house was built 30 years ago by an owner builder. None of the plumbing is even close to code. It's not even close to workable. It's a total disaster. The lady who bought this house had no way of knowing any of this and now she is paying alot of money to fix the problems. So the issue comes down to this: If a house can be sold in the future there needs to be some assurance that it is built reasonably correct. I hate building departments as much as anyone but there does need to be some level of enfocment but probly not to the extreams some areas have. Further goverment bodies should not be charging so much for permits in undeveloped areas. I can see charging for infustructure in a city but not out in BFE.
Scott's hit the nail right smack dab on the head! Every building probably will be sold at some time in the future and those future purchasers should be able to assume that the basic structure and it's working parts are built to some standard. That requires a system of permits and inspections. It that a guarantee there will be no problems? Of course not. But it's better than finding things that are possibly dangerous at some point down the road.
Permit fees are another matter. I'm aghast at the fees being charged in many places. That's only going to get worse as the codes begin to require things like single family residential fire suppression sprinkler systems.
Quote from: MountainDon on September 22, 2009, 12:39:46 PM
Scott's hit the nail right smack dab on the head! Every building probably will be sold at some time in the future and those future purchasers should be able to assume that the basic structure and it's working parts are built to some standard. That requires a system of permits and inspections. It that a guarantee there will be no problems? Of course not. But it's better than finding things that are possibly dangerous at some point down the road.
Permit fees are another matter. I'm aghast at the fees being charged in many places. That's only going to get worse as the codes begin to require things like single family residential fire suppression sprinkler systems.
I agree and disagree with you both.
Scott has a valid point. BUT...In Virginia, it can't be sold as a residence without a certificate of occupancy. The simple solution to that is change the law to allow owner/builder occupancy without permits or certificates, but in order to sell it, it needs to be inspected and a certificate issued.
Depending on how well the county keeps it records, that could work. I have seen the NM system trip over itself. :o Or would the onus on keeping track of the CO be on the owner/builder?
I'd put it on the owner/builder and record it with the deed. NO Certificate, no salable residence.
Peternap: You have my permission to quote from these forum postings and a link or mention of the forum address would be appreciated. You may want to ask the specific individuals if they want attribution.
Personally, I think an owner-builder is wise to build to structural and safety codes even in areas where permits are not required. A review of your plans or work by a professional builder, electrician or plumber is cheap insurance that will payback several times when the property goes to another owner. In some cases it can save your life. :P
Permitting fees and expensive or restrictive code interpretations can be subject to local political forces, especially in tough economic times when other revenue sources are running dry. This is a separate issue from tapping into the stored experience of codes in building solid, safe buildings.
I don't beleive in protectionism...so I disagree with most of you it seems.
I beleive that provided I do not live in town (where different issues can be a factor -- like fires etc) then what I do is my business and what I sell is too (provided it is not illegal -- like drugs). The government has no business telling me what private property I own I can sell or how provided I sell it to a private citizen.
Does this mean buyer beware? Damn straight.
My brother had his house inspected, went through all the 'official' channels...in the end it meant nothing and after THOUSANDS making the home safe guess what? No recourse, the inspector is state protected.
it's worthless feelgood protectionist nonsense.
Sorry for the rant, but I'm getting frustrated with this "we have to make sure you are safe in everything you do".
Is it important to build your cabin/home safely? Yes of course!!! I designed and built my addition to state codes and it not only passed but is an excellent addition...so why did I buy Little House Plans? Becuase I wanted to be sure I had a good foundation to build from. I wanted a set of plans I could trust. If I am wrong it's my fault and only my fault. If I fail to build correctly it's my fault and only my fault and if I am immoral and sell and improperly built house to you its your fault and only your fault for buying it.
It's like daycare. I have no problem with state licensing as long as it is not mandatory. Why? Because I've yet to see a state do something better then private industry can and does. So no thinks, I'd rather take my kids to a home daycare I've researched and trust and take my chances -- chances are they are safer.
Just as I'd rather go to a trusted builder that I know then one that is strictly by the state book...maybe it's just me. But I do not believe in big government and this is just one example of how it creeps into our lives every day.
Erik
Two years ago, I considered buying a completed, very nice cabin-----It included a well & septic system---unfortunately, the owner/builder had skipped the inspection and certification of the septic system so no one would finance the cabin unless he had the system dug up and certified ----an additional cost of about $4000---the engineer who had designed the system for him would have done the in-process inspections and provided the certificate for $500 if the owner had not decided to "save $500". I decided that if he was that penny wise and pound foolish, I lacked confidence in all the hidden parts of the cabin also.
Built my own with help from professionals where appropriate to ensure good outcome.
Quote from: rwanders on September 22, 2009, 03:31:12 PM
Two years ago, I considered buying a completed, very nice cabin-----It included a well & septic system---unfortunately, the owner/builder had skipped the inspection and certification of the septic system so no one would finance the cabin unless he had the system dug up and certified ----an additional cost of about $4000---the engineer who had designed the system for him would have done the in-process inspections and provided the certificate for $500 if the owner had not decided to "save $500". I decided that if he was that penny wise and pound foolish, I lacked confidence in all the hidden parts of the cabin also.
Built my own with help from professionals where appropriate to ensure good outcome.
However, I could spend $8000 putting in a septic system on my piece only to have it go sour and get plugged from lack of use and I would STILL have to spend that money to fix it before you bought it.
Or you'd buy it becuase you would assume that since it was inspected it was ok and then you'd have to pay the $4000+ to fix it.
The inspection means nothing -- that's my point -- and most states don't even protect you in case the inspector lied to you.
I should clerify though, that I am not talking about building a primary residence. I'm talking about a cabin in the woods that's roughly 400 square feet and has no utilities. It's off the grid all the way and will see only very light use (mostly weekend use with maybe two weeks of use in hunting season and a week or two in the spring/fall).
A small 55 gallon grey water system will do quite well for the application just as a composter or privy will and neither will harm a well that's more then 100 feet away (actually it's about 180 feet).
The cows walk by and crap on the ground directly above the well and the state has no issue with that what-so-ever. SO why is it important to force me to put in a septic system I won't need or use? Why make me install 6" walls if I don't want them? (I do by the way) and why should I set up a septic for just grey water when I won't utilize it at all?
Or build foundation walls more then 24" deep for something so light and small that will see very light use anyway.
I can put in a barn without a permit. I can build sheds and various out buildings the same. A shop, no problem. No permit.
the issue is control. They want to make the decisions for me that I can make for myself as a free man. Either I am free or I'm not -- America, it's time to make that decision I guess.
PA has this built into the code. It is the "camp" exception. You can get a permit to build what ever you want as a camp and the only code you have to follow is the septic code. The camp exemption requires you to have another residence and forever bars someone from getting a Certificate of Occupancy or an address for it. When it is sold, it is sold as a camp and has this permanently attached to it. I do fully agree with septic compliance. I disagree with the your septic assessment. A poorly designed, built, or placed septic system can do a lot of damage, even over a fairly large area. It is not only about protecting you from yourself, it is also about protecting others from you or you from others.
Quote from: Squirl on September 23, 2009, 09:07:37 AM
PA has this built into the code. It is the "camp" exception. You can get a permit to build what ever you want as a camp and the only code you have to follow is the septic code. The camp exemption requires you to have another residence and forever bars someone from getting a Certificate of Occupancy or an address for it. When it is sold, it is sold as a camp and has this permanently attached to it. I do fully agree with septic compliance. I disagree with the your septic assessment. A poorly designed, built, or placed septic system can do a lot of damage, even over a fairly large area. It is not only about protecting you from yourself, it is also about protecting others from you or you from others.
What do you disagree with? If I spend top money to install a septic system I have no need for and do not use, it will go sour and need to be fixed in a few years. Period.
As for protecting others, I suggest you ban alcohol as a start then. And while you are at it, ban cars too. In fact, ban industry. It's really quite simple: innocent until proven guilty.
If you make a law that says "no one shall cause sewage to seep, drain or otherwise contaminate any water source" and I then do so you can prosecute me. Until then, leave me alone.
But let me ask you this: if I intend to make use of a composting toilet with a privy backup (both are legal to have here) and I install both within the letter of the law (and indeed perhaps better then that) and I do not use the property for anything other then short visits and install a grey water system to handle the limited grey water I will produce and I use it for the recognized and legal purpose of watering trees then what is the problem?
You know what the county says? Well what if someone buys your land and wants to live there?
Stupid. It's their problem if they buy it and want to live there and it's their responsibility.
The previous owner did not install septic for me after all.
Protectionism is just that, no other way to look at it and insisting that I do this is nothing more then the government making unnecessary rules and regulations for the sole purpose of raising taxes and instituting control.
Lastly, I can legally put a camper, camper trailer, tent etc on the property and am not required to do ANYTHING else -- even if I live in the camper. What's the difference?
I have both a camper and a trailer on the land and the two combined have nearly the same living space as the cabin I plan to build. I can also build farm 'out buildings' without permit and can build sheds galore without restriction....but as soon as I say "this is a cabin" the rules change.
Nonsense.
Quote from: ScottA on September 22, 2009, 11:46:24 AM
The house was built 30 years ago by an owner builder. None of the plumbing is even close to code. It's not even close to workable. It's a total disaster.
There was no standardized coding 30 years ago. Today, I believe, only the ICC produces code books for states/counties/cities at choose to adopt. Codes (building) only started getting real use in the late 70s (I believe) and even then, most counties/cities/states didn't really care. Not until the 90s did all those localities really start enforcing and enacting building codes.
I'm in the same boat with OlJarhead. My teacher and I have some lively discussions in class about codes. I'm one semester away from a degree in Fire Science and I'm currently applying to both fire departments as well as private industries here in Virginia that install & design fire protection systems for every type of occupancy. I'm a Libertarian above all else and what I do on my land is my business. Building my own house is my business, no one else. Buyer Beware. I'm against building & fire codes. Let me rephrase, I'm against forced codes. I think having a set of standards for all is great and only a fool would aim his sights lower than a set of codes that have the benefit of knowledge behind them. One caveat though. Codes are expensive, especially when you start stacking them on. What if I want to build a small, temporary shelter for myself, because I'm poor or not well off, and I don't have the money to build a small 500 sq. ft. home to all these ludicrous codes when it is only going to house myself for a little bit, so that I can save money and get a proper house. It's asinine that we would restrict people like that. Perhaps I was just born in the wrong century or something, I dunno. My fiancee tells me I was born 150 years too late, and I'm inclined to agree with her. Just my .02 ramble. Sorry if that wasn't very coherent d*
Very cohernant. No worries.
I too am a Libertarian (at heart and mind though I am an independent politically) and I'm tired of the protectionism we face.
Today, the rich can hunt, the poor cannot -- sound like Robinhood? It's true. To hunt Deer and Elk and be legal as well as be able to shoot Grouse and other small game costs at least $90 per year and you are limitted heavily. This doesn't count any other cost. Now, if you're poor you really can't afford that...heck I make a very good income and that's something I fight with. Why? It's the King's forest I guess.
So, if I lose everything but still have my land I can't just put up a shed and live there until I can get the funds together to build a nicer place? Why not? becuase I am not rich enough? Gee thanks
So, only the government can provide poor folks housing then? Is that it? What if I don't what thier help? What if I feel my trailer is fine?
Oh wait, I can live in my trailer all I want but if I build a cabin of the same size I get fined? What gives?
The bottom line? Permitting has a place but not out in the country on 20 acres. Period.
In city/town environments I do understand some codes and permits. After all, anyone who studied hystory knows the great fire of London was caused by homes being built poorly and too close together right? (maybe not but the point is the same).
Anyway, there are times and places for things...in the middle of the forest where cows are crapping on everything freely I'm thinking one small cabin with a composting toilette does not need a septic tank.
Period.
Actually the London fire of 1666 was caused by the houses being built of wood and having thatched roofs. I don't think it was so much poor construction as it was do to the building material and how closely they were built. That is actually where the word "Curfew" originates from. The fire started because people would leave fires burning in their fireplaces & hearths. After the fire, they instituted a 'Coverfue' in Latin or, in Middle English at that time, 'Curveu' ... either way they both translate as "Cover Fire". After a certain time it was illegal to leave a fire going. Of course because of the extensive damage, they started a new building code, that buildings in the city had to be made of stone, in order to help prevent the future spread of fire.
QuoteThere was no standardized coding 30 years ago. Today, I believe, only the ICC produces code books for states/counties/cities at choose to adopt. Codes (building) only started getting real use in the late 70s (I believe) and even then, most counties/cities/states didn't really care. Not until the 90s did all those localities really start enforcing and enacting building codes.
True but basic plumbing practices have been known of over 100 years and have not changed all that much over the years. The codes where based on those basic practices in the first place. All I'm saying is that if you can sell a house it should be built to a basic standard of safety and utility. If there was a no sell law for owner built houses that are built substandard then fine do what you want. I also agree that alot of the inspected homes are built substandard. That's not the fault of the codes but that of the profiteers than squeeze the profits at the expense of quality. Which should also be illegal.
I can remember pulling a wall apart I had covered after getting tired of waiting for a delayed inspector 40 years ago. My Dad's comment was, as usual when I had done something stupid, "Guess you won't be doing that again" d*
The code we were operating under in the 60's when I first started being cognizant of and studying it was the NC version of the SBCCI. (Dad would send me out to the truck for the "bible" and the "funny papers", the codebook and the plans). More than once on the trip home he would have me open the book and study up on the mistake of the day. The SBCCI, Southern Building Code Conference codes were from NC south. Second year high school drafting was to design a house. There were codebooks in the classroom, a set of Sweet's files, and in order to pass it had to pass code and work.
VA and north was CABO and the west was under the Uniform or UBC code. Do not mistake lack of enforcement for lack of law, there may not be a sheriff in town but there is and has been for quite some time, law on the books. In the mid 90's those 3 model codes joined to become the ICC. One thing that came out of that marriage was that an inspectors certs follow him from state to state. My contractor's license however does not, I have to be tested in each state I want to build in even though they almost all operate under the same model code (that is another rant).
The first building codes were part of the first codified (written, standardized) laws, "The Code of Hammurabi" king of Ur, predates the Old Testament. This is where the OT "an eye for an eye" comes from. There are about a dozen building related codes in his standardized laws. He didn't believe in "caveat emptor". One section that sticks in my mind stated that if I build a house for a man and it falls down and kills him, I die. If it kills his son, my son dies. His slave, my slave. No deaths, I rebuild it out of my purse.
We have had, and do have, horrific fires in rural areas. We have a less than proud history of people poisoning their land and leaving it to harm others. Laws are not written by some dark force to exert control over you, they are insisted upon by a harmed neighbor somewhere. I don't like many of them but I do see that WE, the government of the people, have agreed upon it. It is your option to convince the majority that WE need to change those rules.
[cool]
Great post, Don P. !
Here's the other shoe, they will be voting...
September 2, 2009
To: NFSA Members
Subj: IRC Hearings in Baltimore
As you are all well aware by now, the International Residential Code (IRC) is back in the development process. With over 40 states considering adoption of the current edition of the code, the residential fire sprinkler requirements adopted by the International Code Council (ICC) membership during the last revision cycle continue to be under serious attack by the nation's homebuilders. As such, there is a very distinct possibility that without your continued support at the upcoming hearings in Baltimore, the battle to keep residential sprinkler requirements in the next edition of the code could be lost.
The ICC code development process includes an opportunity for members to vote at the Code Development Hearing. Since all of us in the fire sprinkler industry have a vested interest in the outcome of this hearing, I encourage you all to attend to help retain what we have worked so hard to obtain.
Our best intelligence so far tells us the sprinkler issues will not be heard before late afternoon on Wednesday, October 28 and no later than early Thursday, October 29, 2009. All of the proceedings will be held at the Baltimore Convention Center.
Here's what you need to do to become an eligible ICC voting member:
1. Apply for an ICC Building Safety Professional membership. The fee is $100 per year and comes with the ICC code of choice. While the deadline for joining to be considered eligible to vote at this hearing is October 14th, it is recommended that October 10th be considered the application deadline. For convenience, a membership application has been attached. It also can be found at the ICC website at www.iccsafe.org.
a. Apply in your name, not your company name, and do the same for any other personnel joining you. Do not apply for membership in any other category such as Corporate.
Only eligible ICC members will be allowed to vote at the hearing!
2. Plan on arriving by noon on Wednesday, October 28th and staying until at least noon on Thursday, October 29th. Hearings proceed at the pace of debate, and if there is a lot of discussion prior to the sprinkler issues being addressed, the opportunity to vote may be missed. There are other important industry-related issues scheduled for later on Thursday, possibly into Friday, so staying longer if possible will be advantageous.
3. Register at www.ircfiresprinkler.org. This will serve as a mechanism to estimate expected supporting attendance and provide a means to communicate updated schedules to attendees both prior to and at the hearing.
4. Register at www.iccsafe.org and follow the Baltimore Code Development Hearings link. The code hearings are free to attend, but by pre-registering, badges with bar code will be available upon arrival at the registration desk. This will also help ICC plan room layout, chairs, etc.
5. Once registered, as the dates gets closer, more information will be sent via email regarding onsite meetings, locations and times.
Questions regarding the process can be referred to our Manager of Codes, Jeff Hugo, who can be reached at 845.519.5963 or at hugo@nfsa.org. To maintain anonymity through the registration process, calls should not be placed directly to ICC about this membership drive. Our efforts are legitimate and we will be opposed by equal numbers.
This is the fire sprinkler industry's chance to keep residential sprinklers in the IRC. After this cycle, while California and other progressive states begin to adopt the IRC, objections from the opposition to fire sprinkler requirements will abate.
Please feel free to pass this correspondence along to others who support our effort. But beware, the opposition is planning the same tactic, and tipping our hand at this point will only multiply their efforts.
This is the fire sprinkler industry's opportunity to preserve residential sprinkler requirements in the national codes. Many states and municipalities are putting off adoption of the current IRC to see whether or not residential sprinklers will survive the 2012 edition. Loss of this vote will escalate to negate all of the fire sprinkler industry's efforts over the past years. Please don't miss out on this historical opportunity.
The easy way to say it: Pay dues; come to hearings for a couple hours; vote for what "I" want you to vote for; then go home and forget about codes.
This residential sprinkler thing really ticks me off! >:( >:( >:( >:( The main point of the letter is the need to protect the sprinkler industry interests, meaning their ability to make more money. And register as individuals, not as corporate. More votes that way.
Seems residential home construction is going the way of the automobile. Remember the days when it was basically figuring out air, fuel, and spark? I remember sitting on the inner fender with my feet on the frame rail of my '68 Lemans to work under the hood. Now we have multiple computers, sensors, and miles of wiring & hose in every new vehicle that makes it difficult for anybody but a person trained to use expensive diagnostic equipment to perform any maintenance or repairs. Some of it is an improvement, but it's far more complex than it needs to be. It's frustrating to see this trend, and I feel it's another symptom of "trickle up economics" that has been growing more & more pervasive since the early 1970's. Powerful interests lobby to protect their own vested interests, and in the process, more & more control is exerted over our daily decisions. With this, we lose the ability to do for ourselves. Either by mandating expensive training & certification, or by requiring systems & tooling that are too expensive for an individual owner/builder (or shade-tree mechanic) the money flows to the larger companies & industries, who then have more money to lobby to further cement their "indispensable" position.
I'm not pooh-poohing all standards/codes, regulations, but I do get irate over added complexity, control, and regulation that is primarily self-serving for corporate benefit.
For those who are familiar with the jurisdiction, I have the misfortune of having my land in King County, WA. I will need to have a sprinkler system if I build a residence on my land, since I'll be 750'+ away from a road. It has to be designed by a "certified" designer, and by the time I build, will probably have to installed by someone else with another "certification." No, not just any plumber will do. (As of last year, I was told that special certification was not required, but I bet that will change.) For my desired 1,200 or so square foot residence, I'm sure this nonsense will add at least $5,000. Gee thanks NFSA; I'm glad you have my best interests at heart!
Quote from: Don_P on September 23, 2009, 09:54:08 PM
We have had, and do have, horrific fires in rural areas. We have a less than proud history of people poisoning their land and leaving it to harm others. Laws are not written by some dark force to exert control over you, they are insisted upon by a harmed neighbor somewhere. I don't like many of them but I do see that WE, the government of the people, have agreed upon it. It is your option to convince the majority that WE need to change those rules.
I'm not sure we have a 'majority' deciding anything but that's neither here nor there. Our system of government is not based on the 'majority' rules principles of Democracy -- though most American's think it is (by design). Our system of government was designed on the principles of 'Represenation' and is called a 'Republic' 'republican' system for a reason.
In fact, the founding fathers were determined to stop factions from controlling the people through a 'democratic process' -- which is indeed what we have today.
You see, if you could prove to me that using a composting toilette and a greywater system is somehow harmful and therefore I should install an $8000 septic system I might at least consider the argument. However, it's really quite the opposite. Thus my point, that the codes and regulations are no longer there for the purpose of protecting anyone. They are merely a tool of the government (at whichever level they are being enforced) to restrict freedoms, tax citizens, control people or exert power.
And I'm not some conspiracy theorist nutjob (though I might sound like one). I'm just a guy who's seen the system at work, studied the founding fathers and came to the realization that they were right.
I don't have a problem with regulations provided they aren't out of control. For example, let's have a little test shall we?
1. How many of you feel you should pay 20% tax on the cost of your building a cabin (above and beyond sales tax of course)...so make that 28.5%.
How many?
2. How many of YOU feel that you should have to install a septic system ($5000-$8000 depending on your soil etc) even though you will not use it ever and will have to fix it later?
3. How many of YOU feel that you should have to get permission to build a vacation cabin?
4. How many of YOU feel that you should have to take your plans to someone else who may or may not be qualified to inspect them and get your plans inspected to make sure they meet their codes?
I could go on an on...but let's take a poll. If more then 50% of you feel it's ok to pay 25-29% tax on building your VACATION CABIN then I guess I'm wrong and if more then 50% of you feel that you should have to have permission to do so then I'm in the wrong forum.
Lastly, and sadly, I suspect that freedom is something most American's have forgotten. They don't know what it is anymore and are too dependent on someone protecting them. I for one, don't need that thanks. It doesn't mean I don't make mistakes and haven't hurt myself but it does mean that I don't blame others, take responsibility for my actions and learn by my mistakes. I don't need anyone to tell me whether I need 4" or 6" walls and quite frankly if I want 4" walls that's my business not yours or anyone elses.
Unless of course you decide to throw out the Constitution and rename this the USSA -- in which case I'll shut up ;)
Quote from: OlJarhead on September 24, 2009, 11:15:20 AM
4. How many of YOU feel that you should have to take your plans to someone else who may or may not be qualified to inspect them and get your plans inspected to make sure they meet their codes?
I'll comment on number 4. Having watched the construction of a house a few miles from me in the mountains I have seen where some people need to have their plans approved. This guy originally had plans approved and a permit issued. That was several years ago. Since then the structure has morphed considerably from the approved plan and now contains several questionable details. There have been no inspections and I believe the fact that there once was a permit has been lost by the county.
... A four foot wide window in a side, load bearing stick built wall, that has no header.
... All the windows have been installed with NO flashing materials at all.
... There is no house wrap or building paper on the exterior walls.
... The PV panels have been installed directly on the metal roofing without a ground fault system included. That means if a fault develops anyone coming along in the future could receive a deadly shock if they contact the roof.
There are other problems but those are the ones that come to mind quickly.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/2651937/The-people-living-in-drains-below-Las-Vegas.html
Of course, they don't need to worry about permits.
Let's not forget that as those sprinkler systems become the law of the land, those that don't have them will get walloped by the insurance companies- if you can even get insurance on a house that doesn't have them. Sprinklers will be part of our future- count on it. And has already been pointed out- in many cases, they have to be designed and installed by someone with the 'right' certification. Even if you want one (which I do) I can't DIY; I'll have to pony up a lot of money to pay someone else to do it.
Quote from: MountainDon on September 24, 2009, 12:23:46 PM
Quote from: OlJarhead on September 24, 2009, 11:15:20 AM
4. How many of YOU feel that you should have to take your plans to someone else who may or may not be qualified to inspect them and get your plans inspected to make sure they meet their codes?
I'll comment on number 4. Having watched the construction of a house a few miles from me in the mountains I have seen where some people need to have their plans approved. This guy originally had plans approved and a permit issued. That was several years ago. Since then the structure has morphed considerably from the approved plan and now contains several questionable details. There have been no inspections and I believe the fact that there once was a permit has been lost by the county.
... A four foot wide window in a side, load bearing stick built wall, that has no header.
... All the windows have been installed with NO flashing materials at all.
... There is no house wrap or building paper on the exterior walls.
... The PV panels have been installed directly on the metal roofing without a ground fault system included. That means if a fault develops anyone coming along in the future could receive a deadly shock if they contact the roof.
There are other problems but those are the ones that come to mind quickly.
So you are saying that you personally feel that he should have to (which means you too) get his plans inspected etc etc. Why? Becuase he's stupid? It certainly won't hurt you.
1. I paid about 9% tax on my cabin. All of it sales taxes. 20+% is robbery.
2. My septic cost $2500 plus $100 for the perk test. $8k sounds a tad steep but I'm sure this is common in some areas.
3. I didn't need any permission to build my cabin.
4. Not everyone is smart enough not to kill themself but I didn't need my plans reviewed. In fact there are no plans for my cabin other than the ones in my head and the floorplan.
Maybe you picked a bad place to build?
Quote from: ScottA on September 24, 2009, 04:04:37 PM
1. I paid about 9% tax on my cabin. All of it sales taxes. 20+% is robbery.
2. My septic cost $2500 plus $100 for the perk test. $8k sounds a tad steep but I'm sure this is common in some areas.
3. I didn't need any permission to build my cabin.
4. Not everyone is smart enough not to kill themself but I didn't need my plans reviewed. In fact there are no plans for my cabin other than the ones in my head and the floorplan.
Maybe you picked a bad place to build?
;) I'm building in America -- isn't that enough? I keep checking my pocket Constitution to see where I went wrong....can't seem to find the part that says "The Government shall regulate every aspect of your life and protect you from your own stupid self".....I keep getting lost in the "pursuit of happiness" part for some reason.
But what is a tax? After all, sales tax is a tax but when you register your car (why do you do that by the way?) isn't that a tax? In fact, a tax is anything you pay to the government so they can control, er, protect, er, regulate your life.
So, let me get this straight: If I have to pay 20-25% 'permitting' fee that is really just a tax. If I also pay 8.5% sales tax well, that's a tax too (even has it in the name for those that might get confused)...of course I'm not counting other things...just these.
So, I have to pay a tax to have someone tell me my water is fine -- which I already know. I have to pay a tax to have someone tell me that Little House Plans plans don't meet code -- ya I know that too, but they made them so I could change them and I'll just pensil in the 2x6 walls and 2x8 rafters etc and I'm sure they will be fine -- but I KNOW for a FACT that the 2x4 walls are just fine -- my house now has them and I STINKING LIVE THERE YOU MORON -- oh sorry, got carried away *snicker* anyway, and I have to pauy a fee just to have permission, yes permission, to build a cabin on MY OWN LAND and while I'm at it I have to pay someone to install a septic system I won't use (how many bloody times do I have to explain that?) and so much more.
Personally I prey to god Rawless is right and the whole country collapses because I can't see any other way that we can get reason back into the minds of the American people.
Thinking that you or anyone else has the right to tell me or anyone else how I have to build my house on my land is well, the way socialists think, not Americans.
let me be free. If I fail I promise I'll own my own failure.
besides, what ever happened to 'innocent until proven guilty' anyway? After all, you are already assuming I will fail and that my friends is the real crux of the problem. You've decided I'm guilty (those who insist I need permits and inspections etc etc or that anyone else does) and it's really quite sad.
Will people fail? yes of course. Will they commit crimes? Yes of course. but do you have the right to control their lives? No.
And each time someone tells me this is a democracy and the majority rules I feel a deeper sadness becuase they are not only wrong, they are clearly mislead. This is a republic and the people rule through their representatives....but those clearly don't represent anymore.
unless of course you can honestly say Barney Frank represents someone.
Quote from: OlJarhead on September 24, 2009, 03:51:56 PM
So you are saying that you personally feel that he should have to (which means you too) get his plans inspected etc etc. Why? Because he's stupid? It certainly won't hurt you.
I'm saying that I pity the next uninformed person who may buy the property, because those defects are all hidden.
I have gone through the business of applying for building permits from the foundation up through the roof, including the electrical and the plumbing. Everything was passed and none of it was outrageously priced. The present cabin is the exception to the permits, but not to the quality. So yeah, I probably should have done the permit thing, but the chances of being found out are slim.
My main problem with the example house I used is the dubious level of the PV electrical work. It might hurt me, or a family member. Or maybe someone I don't even know. Nine roof top PV panels in a 3 x 3 arrangement have a normal working voltage of 85.5 volts enough to kill the anyone who comes in contact if something goes wrong. I should point out that some of the exterior panel wiring has been done with THHN wire, not in conduit. It is exposed to UV which will cause deterioration of the insulation. In addition some of the THHN is in between the panels and the roof, maybe an inch clearance. In bright sun that will likely cause temperatures that are higher than the wire's rating. So, no I will not likely be harmed by it, as I have seen the faults. But what about some other innocent person, maybe someone who helps out cleaning the chimney someday when the owner is too old to get on the roof himself?
So I find myself facing a conundrum, once again. I don't like many of governments interventions, but I can see reasons or standards to be enforced in many places. I'm also
not going to be an informer; I'll simply be careful as I can be and never volunteer to work on his roof top.
Maybe this comes across like a double standard?
However, some of the cost figures that come out of places like CA and WA states are ridiculous. Those things are left to the state, not the feds.
ED: Maybe others have noticed, some of my "f's" are missing at times. The key is missing on my keyboard and I have to poke my finger in the "f" hole rather hard. I don't always. d* - MD
[cool] Right on Don! People who think the "rules of society" are only meant for other (dumb) persons and they are far too wise or skilled to profit from knowledge gained through years of human experience are just the ones who need "the rules" most. Code minimums are just that----why would anyone want to do less for their own family's safety and comfort?
Having said that, fees for permitting and inspections are often excessive but, the voting public does have ultimate control of those if they have the gumption to exercise it.
THis is interesting:
"A Building Permit shall not be required for the repair and remodeling of residential structures when the fair market value of repair or remodeling does not exceed $3000"....
Also I've learned I can build a shop without a permit or anything else...it can be the exact same size as the cabin I want...hmmmmm
So as long as I call it a shop I can do exactly what I want.
Why is that?
Quote from: MountainDon on September 24, 2009, 06:00:31 PM
Quote from: OlJarhead on September 24, 2009, 03:51:56 PM
So you are saying that you personally feel that he should have to (which means you too) get his plans inspected etc etc. Why? Because he's stupid? It certainly won't hurt you.
ED: Maybe others have noticed, some of my "f's" are missing at times. The key is missing on my keyboard and I have to poke my finger in the "f" hole rather hard. I don't always. d* - MD
My S is sticking >:(
Quote from: OlJarhead on September 24, 2009, 11:15:20 AMOur system of government is not based on the 'majority' rules principles of Democracy -- though most American's think it is (by design).
"We do not have government of the majority, we have government of the majority who vote." ~Thomas Jefferson
I'm disappointed in all the people who say that all these regulations are okay because "the voting people allow those who create those laws/codes/etc to stay/gain political office". We are a nation that was founded on the principal of protecting the "Rights of the Minority" and helped pioneer an independent spirit that is uniquely American. Look at our Bill of Rights for further proof. Thomas Jefferson wasn't the only Founding Father afraid of
Tyranny of the Majority and the whole reason we became a Republic over a Democracy was because of that fear that very phrase invoked.
There is nothing wrong with adhering to a minimum standard or even having one. I'm against forcing someone to adhere to codes though. I'm of the opinion that it's all "Buyer Beware" in buying property; be it in the country or city, both come with hazards; it should just be accepted, just like building next to a river or on the coast. Life is full of risks, and again I quote Thomas Jefferson, "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it."
Quote from: OlJarhead on September 25, 2009, 12:21:40 AM
So as long as I call it a shop I can do exactly what I want.
Why is that?
Chances are that the "gotcha" is you aren't supposed to have running water or a sink or sleep in it or something like that. But I do believe you you should build a shop and then do a low buck remodel. ;)
(https://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q75/djmillerbucket/oddnends3/P1010572.jpg)
Your keyboard looks like it has seen some use :P
Just about time for a new 'puter. ;)
Quote from: peternap on September 25, 2009, 12:23:57 AM
Quote from: MountainDon on September 24, 2009, 06:00:31 PM
Quote from: OlJarhead on September 24, 2009, 03:51:56 PM
So you are saying that you personally feel that he should have to (which means you too) get his plans inspected etc etc. Why? Because he's stupid? It certainly won't hurt you.
ED: Maybe others have noticed, some of my "f's" are missing at times. The key is missing on my keyboard and I have to poke my finger in the "f" hole rather hard. I don't always. d* - MD
My S is sticking >:(
I'm really, really, SERIOUSLY-REALLY glad that we're actually talking computer keyboards. I was worried what the next double entendre might be.
:D
The "e" is going to be next. It's partially collapsed. >:( The a, s e are completely worn off. Other than that it still works fine.
Ol Jarhead,
Young Jarhead here. I agree with everything you have posted. I have never pulled a permit and never will. It is no one's business what I do with my property short of polluting the land. I have put on a new roof (horror!) built sheds (oh no!) put in new insulation (oh, my!) and on and on and on. We have not died yet, although we have lived here for 19 years now. Every few years the town sends out Revaluators, who ask "what's a good day to come in and inspect your home?" I always reply, "Never" I even had one jackass try to get smart with me and I chased him off my land and then called the assessor's office. I told them to have their minions mind their manners and not to lie to us. Semper Fi!
Quote from: Woodsrule on September 25, 2009, 12:41:23 PM
Ol Jarhead,
Young Jarhead here. I agree with everything you have posted. I have never pulled a permit and never will. It is no one's business what I do with my property short of polluting the land. I have put on a new roof (horror!) built sheds (oh no!) put in new insulation (oh, my!) and on and on and on. We have not died yet, although we have lived here for 19 years now. Every few years the town sends out Revaluators, who ask "what's a good day to come in and inspect your home?" I always reply, "Never" I even had one jackass try to get smart with me and I chased him off my land and then called the assessor's office. I told them to have their minions mind their manners and not to lie to us. Semper Fi!
Semper Fi Marine!
I don't want folks to think I'm some anarchist. I'm not. Not at all, but like the founders I like my liberty and I raised my right hand and stood on that line to defend it (I'm a veteran who's stood in the sand too) and I just don't feel there is any reason, what-so-ever to force me to build a specific way or to charge me a tax (permit fee) in order to build. That's what's wrong with this nation.
So, in the meantime, I'll continue building my SHOP :) Though it's going to be one heck of a cool looking shop ;) Look just like a cabin in fact!
In another thread someone made the comment that no one had ever built a slum, that slums are created by the occupants. The first building codes in this country were tenement acts. They required things like heat, sanitary facilities, fire escapes and windows for light and ventilation. The next ammendments to those acts required that the windows actually face the outside fresh air and not a hallway.
In my jurisdiction none of the items listed by Woodsrule would require a permit. I had a discussion with our assessor, an employee of a private third party company, he has obviously been asked to leave peoples property and said that he then must make assumptions about the value of the improvements. I doubt he guesses low.
I don't disagree with the sentiments expressed by many here, the laws are in place for a reason however. Pollution is only one way that a person may harm another. Deck collapses make the papers weekly, many with injuries. Fire is another, people have been trapped in rooms with no means of escape. If someone is injured intentionally or through neglect by another the consequences are much more severe. Not pulling a permit shows some level of neglegence or intent. Be prepared for no insurance coverage.
Building departments have obviously caught others before, I've seen some of the consequences. The inspector will often require exposure of the footings and an engineer's assessment. They can require exposure of enough framing to determine that the structure is up to code, some require total exposure of the frame. Some require removal of the entire structure.
One that sticks in my mind was a man that bought an unbuildable lot, it would not perk and not permit could be issued. He began construction. He was issued a stop work order and the county tried to find a way agreeable to him and the law to continue, no agreeable way was found. He continued. The inspector had him arrested and they gave him a court date. The day before court he torched the structure. He served time. When he got out he began to build again. He now has lost the property and a brick from that house sits on the county attorney's desk. As they say "Don't do the crime unless you are prepared to do the time".
It does not matter how you or I feel about this, it is the way it sometimes is. A person is free to choose their own path. Anyone can work to change the law or anyone can break the law and risk the consequences. Doesn't matter whether I agree with either side, I'm simply trying to let those reading know that the consequences are sometimes quite severe.
Two code cycles ago my entire county was placed in the codebook "special wind region" requiring expensive windows and doors and increased strapping and bracing. Our building inspector was the person who stood up and got the law changed.
Quote from: MountainDon on September 25, 2009, 12:38:08 AM
(https://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q75/djmillerbucket/oddnends3/P1010572.jpg)
[rofl2]
This photo , along with some text Mtn. D has typed here would seem to indicate that Mtn. D is F--in crazy eh c*
We now return you to the Building Dept. from hell rants! ;)
Hi Don,
In my town, all of the listed items require a permit. The town even enacted an ordinance that requires a permit if you move more than 15 yards of fill/loam,sand, etc... It's because of these intrusions into our lives that folks get fed up. I get what you mean about building codes. A basic code that protects those who cannot protect themselves makes sense to me, but telling me that I need permission to move dirt gets me a bit crazy. >:(
Perhaps the point is missed here: I'm not building a house. I'm not building in a town, or near a town.
I'm building a hunting cabin on property in the woods with limited access and with minimal usage.
Why on earth would I want to spend the money on a 2x12 floor so I can meet the county or state codes? IN fact, I live in a 56 year old house that has 4" walls -- which are fine by the way -- so why on earth would I spend the money to build 6" walls on a HUNTING CABIN????
Many people do not even insulate their cabins.
Look, besides my libertarian views, perhaps we're missing the point of my rants which is that I am not building a house, I'm not making a place to live, I'm just trying to build a cabin to stay in from time to time when I want to get away or go hunting etc...
Now, if I want to live in a hovel -- that's another discussion and one that has to do with the meaning of liberty.