.ilyt
w* StuckInNature
If you gotta be stuck someplace, that's a great place. :)
Do you have hills?
I ask that because for my personal sanity I need to have daylight and lots of it inside. If there's a slope you can go partial underground and have a window wall. If no slope... well I wouldn't like it. But that's my opinion.
How about partially in the ground? Deep enough to lower the silhouette but leaving room for some windows in the low walls. Dirt banked up on some sides. Sod roof just like the pioneers.
With a "pit" like that what about drainage, like when it rains. I've never thought much about it, but we do have advocates/followers of underground building here. I'm certain they and others will pop in and give their thoughts.
Have a good one!
Theres pro & cons of each type of cabin. You just have to weigh them in for what will suit your needs. Either way you need to ask yourself what are you going to use it for and will it be solely for you or others too. Either way I would draw up a set of plans to utilize the small space as efficent as possible. Sometimes you can easily add these into the planning stage. Personally the size you have indicated is not much room for a single story(underground) but would be fine above ground with a small loft. It is alot cheeper to build up than out. One roof covers all. Once you get the general idea of what you want that will normally dictate the size. If not a couple feet one way or the other will probably not break the bank.
I like Don's suggestion of a berm cabin. You could even make it 1-1/2 story for extra room.
Are there exemptions for any sizes of buildings there?
Many places 120 sq feet or less are exempt... and you need to be away from standing water for the underground cabin to work so the 75 feet should not be a problem if you can continue up hill. A bermed underground structure is also possible if there are water issues where the structure is covered but above ground.
If you have to get permits, the underground structure will likely not be cost effective, but if not, Mike Oehler's $50 and Up Underground House will give you design specs.
If that is not practical, John's Little House Plans (http://www.jshow.com/y2k/listings/29.html) will have you covered. The above ground will be much less work.
Welcome to the forum.
Hi there and welcome to the forum. I agree with your opinions on land use but strongly urge you to find out what the laws are in your area. Try asking around without telling anyone what your plans might be. If you are in a planning area you should think long and hard before you just do whatever you want. You might get away with it you might have to tear it down and pay a fine. There's always the option of putting it on wheels(and blocks) if all else fails. I'd go with above ground if it was me. That land looks kinda wet. Put shutters on the place so you can lock it up tight when you're gone and post your boundry. 10x12 is gonna be kinda tight but should work for one person if planned out well.
Good luck
I'll go out on a limb as long as you understand that I am bad about thumbing my nose at local government. Also understand that you could be forced to tear it down if caught.
That said, build it if you want.Looking at your picture, I'd pass on the underground cabin. They have advantages but the big enemy (Other than decay) is water. I've found that in your type of soil, you hit water a few feet above the waterline of the pond. This will cause you no end of misery,
For the size you are talking about, the options are limitless. One would be to buy a metal storage container and insulate it. That will even be legal in most cases.
Another would to be to build a small cabin (start calling it a shed) on skids.
Nothing is break in proof although the storage containers are pretty hard to get into. I have have a trick for keeping most people from my place. I found that the hunters ignored No Trespassing signs when I wasn't around.
I took a sheet of plywood and set it up so I could pin a silhouette target on it. I shot several very tight groups in the head, chest and :)other parts and then I put a no trespassing under it.
I've only had one hunter go past it since I did that.
Good luck with whatever you do!
Take a look at some of the plans available here. There are some very small but well designed building that John's designed.
I saw a sign one time that said: "Trespassers will be shot. Survivors will be shot again." [cool]
The problem with those signs is that if you DO shoot someone, the wording will come back to haunt you.
Mine is juit a target ???
Welcome to the forum Stuck.
It all depends where in Minnesota you are and how lucky you are whether or not you'll have any problems.
A couple of years ago, we were looking for land and found some by Mille Lacs. One drive through the neighborhood showed at least 5 trashed cabins. We decided against it.
We finally ended up with 13 acres north of Hibbing and Chisolm. Have had an RV parked there for 2 hunting seasons, and no problem. The difference is there are a couple of year-rounders near and they DO keep a watch on it. Not obnoxiously, but they do know the comings and goings of vehicles in the area.
So, get a feel for the area, and any speciial problems it may have before making your decision. The other thing you gan do if you do build above ground is blend in as much as possible. Choose colors, details, etc to blend into the surroundings.
Most of all, enjoy it!
Oh...one other thing....
Get some game cameras. They are great for keeping an eye on the game and even better at keeping an eye on trespassers.
The one bunch of hunters that passed my sign was on Thanksgiving.
This weekend I'll find out who they are and they'll wish their mothers never met their fathers >:(
(https://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa57/peternap/tres2.jpg)
(https://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa57/peternap/tres1.jpg)
How much time will you be able to spend there? How often will you visit?
You may just want to build a "campsite". Perhaps a raised platform with a metal roof overhead. A surrounding knee wall, ... but otherwise open, nothing to break into. Attached stone fire-pit and chimney. Separate privy. A good place to set up a tent, but not much to destroy ... and little invitation for destruction.
Any small building that is remote .... becomes some bum's toilet.
Quote from: desdawg on November 28, 2007, 07:53:44 AM
"Trespassers will be shot. Survivors will be shot again." [cool]
That's better than the one I had that said "Trespassers will be shot, survivors will be prosecuted"
Interesting set of smileys here. Since it's morning... c*
It's such a shame one has to worry so much about vandalism or break in. Is it really that prominent in the area you are in?
I too suggest you call the county planning department (or whatever they call it). They HELPED me find a suitable classification in the state law that I could build without making it into a "dwelling". "Fishing and Hunting Shelter" it was... I was all excited till I talked to the township building inspector. He would have no part of it. He said he'd have to treat that as a dwelling and it's having to meet all inclusions and codes. My township isn't as remote as yours though...maybe you wouldn't have that conflict.
The definition was that it be less than 960 sq and used for the aforementioned activities, with overnight lodging intermittently, and no permanent plumbing. Guy can do a lot with that description.
Staying legal could avoid heartache, headache and cost later maybe.
Good luck, it sounds exciting!
Frank, your neighbor in Wisconsin (Go Packers!)
The camera is a great idea. I've wondered how to help keep an eye on the gate....just didn't think of it.
Maybe the local police will be able to do something with the pic.
I am wondering if you place a No Tresspassing with it saying violaters willbe fined 10,000 and then if they are found guilty via the camera you can take them to court and collect..... Thatmight be lesson enough for a community to respect private property.
Quote from: StinkerBell on November 28, 2007, 12:39:53 PM
I am wondering if you place a No Trespassing with it saying violators will be fined $10,000 and then if they are found guilty via the camera you can take them to court and collect.....
It's the collecting part that's going to be difficult with a bunch (most?) of them.
I do like the subtle art displayed by Peter's bang on target, juxtopositioned with the No Trespassing sign. In today's litigious world it might not be wise to display a "shot on sight" sort of thing. Something like might need a lawyer trying to explain that it was meant in jest, IF something ever happened, even if you were innocent.
The game cameras came up some time ago in another thread. I still think they're a good idea tho' I haven't got any yet myself. Peter, did you get the universal type that you use your own camera or an all-in-one, ready-to-go type? Have you captured any four legged game as well?
Don, I think the universals your talking about are homebuilts. Yes, I do have a couple. This one was a store bought Stealth I450. It's the best for the money I've found.
I have thousands of game picture.
I have some on line
Go to :
https://s198.photobucket.com/albums/aa57/peternap/
and browse away.
I have a soft spot for my bears so I have a lot of them there.
Thanks, Peter. You weren't kidding when you said lots of bear! Deer too. And one wolf; haven't seen one of those out here, ever. Coyotes all over the place tho'.
The wolf isn't on my property Don....Sorry, didn't even think about it. I hosted it for a friend out west. As far as i know, there aren't any wolves here. Plenty of yotes though.
The fellow with the deer is my son. He killed that during muzzleloader season a few weeks ago.
I really enjoyed you animal cam shots too. You sure do have a lot of bears wandering around there. They look healthy too.
Christina
Thanks Christina.
The Bears eat well. They get in my deer feeders. I went through 400 pounds of corn over the summer.
I saw the cubs last weekend. They are over 100 pounds now. I may feed them some trespassers this weekend [cool]
That guy on the passenger side must not have seen the camera. He looked like the "flip it off kind of guy" had he known. Go get em Peter! :)
Probably you will need to find out which type of structure doesn't require and permit and then tell them that is what you are going to build or at least call it. Maybe even a picnic shelter with screen sides.
As far as the modern things in life. I'm going to keep my charmin and you can have the outdate "sear and roebucks catalogs" and the " corn cob".
Good Luck
Just be sure to use a different cob if you ever want to make a corn cob pipe. [noidea'
Sorry CWhite...I drift off subject sometimes.
What is the budget for this project?
Throwing a bomb into the conversation.....
You might consider just putting a camper on the property with a generator, and haul water.
The gypsy life style is really quite comfortable. I have been living in a 35 year old airstream travel trailer for over a year now. They come with water heaters, showers, toilets, a bit of storage, electricity (battery or ac), beds, windows, refrigerators and stoves, doors, wheels, and are in your budget if you're willing to clean it up and make a few cosmetic repairs.
You also, may not have to worry about codes at all either.
Trust me, they may be a luxury way to travel and camp, but living in one feels primitive.
I paid $2000.00 for my airstream, and it is 23 feet long with all the fixins. It's not pretty, but it is a fine trailer, and I am very comfortable in it.
Then, after you build your dream cabin, you could sell it or use it for traveling.
Just a thought.
Christina
You might consider just putting a camper on the property with a generator, and haul water.
That's what I was leading to with the budget. We're using a camper until the cabin is finished.
as mentioned earlier.... it won't hurt to go in and sit down and ask the planning dept at the county for some help. You might be surprised and find someone who really wants to help you get to your dream....
"They HELPED me find a suitable classification in the state law that I could build without making it into a "dwelling". "Fishing and Hunting Shelter" it was... I was all excited till I talked to the township building inspector. He would have no part of it. He said he'd have to treat that as a dwelling and it's having to meet all inclusions and codes. My township isn't as remote as yours though...maybe you wouldn't have that conflict.
The definition was that it be less than 960 sq and used for the aforementioned activities, with overnight lodging intermittently, and no permanent plumbing. Guy can do a lot with that description.
Staying legal could avoid heartache, headache and cost later maybe. "
Although the local township put the cabash on the Fishing and Hunting Shelter, then he said "pull the permit for storage", then do what you want with it after I am gone. I havn't had him back yet, I hope he is good for his word! I do have a garage / upper two lots away and I don't think it is a "dwelling" either, but it's obvious the upper is a living unit. Just don't put up a mail box or other obvious residense things....
As a former hydrologist in Minnesota for many years, I must endorse the above-ground approach. To build my cabin out here in WA, I first built an outhouse and brought in a small travel trailer. Local permit boys were perplexed with what to do when they discovered my half-built cabin. They resolved their problem by deciding to call it a "recreational outbuiding," rather than a residence. Later I found out the county ordinance allows structures in that class that are less than 300 sq.ft. to be built without permits. Mine is 320. Also found out that even though numerous violations have been turned over to the county attorney for prosecution over the past 15yrs, not one was pursued. It's the poorest county in the state, and they want development, ANY development. Don't let the permit folks scare ya. They operate just like the IRS - mostly bluff and bluster.
Welcome to the Forum. Lots of good advice and experience 'round here.
Steve
Good point about the no-fee permit. Here it is 200 sq ft or less. I agree with the alternate name aproach too. When I first started talking to the permit guys I was calling the building a "cabana", like a pool day room. They were cool with that....just be careful how obvious you get in making it a dwelling ....until after their final inspection.
Sometimes, depending on my exposure, I decide that I would rather beg for forgiveness than ask for permission. So far I haven't had to do any begging. Knock on wood. d*
The permits are in violation of our Constitutional rights and or Bill of Rights. Don't feel too bad if you occasionally forget to enter into a contract with the illegal entity agreeing to give them money and authority to hassle you.
I'm not saying don't get permits. I'm not saying fight them. It's much easier to roll over and pay them off than it is to fight for your rights because many of the Color of Law maritime court Judges will rule for them anyway. (Check out the flag in your court. If it has a Gold Fringe it is a maritime flag).
I feel they have their place-- for when they are protecting people who can't build for themselves from unscrupulous contractors - contractors law --. They have no place regulating owner builders who build out of necessity to house their family under pursuit of happiness or any other individual's rights granted by the Constitution.
See also UCC 1-207 about entering into contracts - with county - schools -- tickets - IRS 1040 etc. in mind. Whenever you sign to agree to something you are entering a contract. This provision can help you even with the IRS -- do you really want to sign that 1040 under penalty of perjury without this protection - in case you may have forgot something. A little off to the side here but not really when you think of how it applies to your permit contract. Don't be afraid to line out things you don't agree with.
If you feel like studying up a bit
Quote from a site listed:
Quote
WARNING: WHAT YOU ARE ABOUT TO READ IS HAZARDOUS MATERIAL. PLEASE DO NOT ACT ON THIS INFORMATION WITHOUT ACCEPTING FULL RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR OWN ACTIONS.
http://www.landrights.com/
http://www.landrights.com/NoTrespassing.htm
http://www.landrights.com/UCC_1-207.htm
http://www.landrights.com/fbi-color-of-law.htm
http://teamlaw.org/
Team Law
http://www.constitution.org/proppriv.htm
Property and Privacy Rights
http://www.budgetcorporaterenewals.com/html/invisible_contracts.html
I have only skimmed this but it is some info on how things got this way. Presented only for you reading pleasure.
http://usa-the-republic.com/items%20of%20interest/Special%20Maritime%20Exposed.pdf
Glenn got me started here, so my first piece of advice is: defer to him in all things!
That said, I would be real careful before picking legal fights with the county. State and municipal zoning ordinances were deemed constitutional in a case called Euclid v. Ambler, and have been recognized as such for nearly a full century. Also, in reference to the UCC (the Uniform Commercial Code) be aware that most states that have enacted it have only held it to govern transactions involving movable property, usually expressly excepting real estate transactions, it does not, in ANY state, govern ALL contracts.
Sorry for case notes guys, but I've sucked down so many good tips from so many experienced builders and carpenters here that I feel compelled to give something back when I have anything to share (I'm an attorney - don't hate me!)
I'm an attorney - don't hate me!)
Dear God! Not on a board that involves work ;D
Most of us, including Glenn, know that your correct. We just don't like it. You are right about picking a fight. They have better enforcement than we have defenses.
There is more than one way to handle the local Government though. You can stand up in patriotic defiance ....and pay the lawyers a princely sum and still probably lose....
I'm more of a shoot and scoot type of person. I can sit in a tree where the local government can't see me. When they come near, take a whizz. They still don't see me, think it's raining and I get to giggle in my Non Approved Dwelling. :)
Moral of this off color post is ...Stay under the radar!
Barrister Pericles,
We won't hate you. Heck we won't even tell any lawyer jokes now that we know you are here. ;)
I have never responded well to "authority". And it seems that everyone wants to tell us how to live and then charge us for the disservice. Some things should be sacred and out of reach of all of that. I haven't read Glenn's links myself, and since I am not an attorney wouldn't know what is right or wrong anyway. ??? Thanks for the "heads up".
Heck we won't even tell any lawyer jokes now that we know you are here.
Now wait a minute Des....I'm the only non-lawyer in my family. I married a Judges Daughter......I can't live without lawyer jokes ;D :) ;D :) ;D :) ;D :) [cool] [cool] [cool] [cool] [cool] ;D :) ;D :) ;D ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
Wait a minute....I used to work for the Government....State and Federal! Oh the shame of it all! :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :(
My wife and I went for a swim out on the lake Eerie by Cleveland not too long ago, all the way to a small island not far off the beach. While we were there, sharks started to swarm, and she was terrified. I jumped right in, and swam to shore, where I got a skiff to come sail her back in. When she asked me how I knew the sharks wouldn't tear me to pieces while I swam to shore, I told her "professional curtasy."
Seriously though folks... I'm a prosecutor in PA. (We don't do code enforcement cases, if you were wondering.)
Pericles
My wife is a para-legal and worked for the PA in WV for 21 years. Make the best of what time we have on the green side of the dirt and treat others as we would want to be treated. I was in law enforcement (I know I should have never told THEM) 25-1/2 years and lived by that moto. When I came across someone that I had to take some action I did it to where I could sleep at night and never had to look over my shoulder. After all that time dealing the darker side of society I still believe there are more good people than bad in this world. Now that I am retired I hang with the good ones.
nice way to live dry and beat bullets might be to building using ICFs
insulated concrete forms...a quick search will help.
Earl
Welcome to the forum, Pericles. How's construction going on the Parthenon?hmm
Glad I got you stirred up enough to pop in here and bless us with a bit of your knowledge. :) If you can find the courage to do that then I think we can find it in our hearts to forgive you. ;D
Seriously, it is great to have you here. We like any professionals who are willing to share and not be a jerk about it. We had a building inspector here for a bit but he was a real jerk so he kind of got chased off.
As you may have noted -- I put the disclaimer for anybody who may try to assert their lost rights, but still wish to inform them for their own education. It likely would open up a can of worms and even most lawyers probably wouldn't touch it...but... if you know some of this stuff and realize that today things are not the way they were meant to be you may occasionally win a little victory here and there.
It may help you to try to stand up and get what you can that is yours at least once in a while. Realize that likely you will not win but you won't always lose. If you don't know anything about it, then you have no chance at all so you just as well roll over and not even try.
I refused an audit by the IRS a few years back -- we got into a giant pi$$ing contest. I sent letters and affidavits every time they would reply and threaten me . A friend told me always talk to them no matter what. Never fail to respond to one of their challenges. I fought them for a year and a half. An enrolled agent I hired to help deal with them said I could be assured that every Agent in the state of California knew who I was. He suggested I talk to the auditor -- he got him to limit his request to one point. He said he thought I did not turn in all of my income. I proved I did and he immediately sent back an "accepted as filed".
I looked at hassling them back as a great hobby and well worth the money I spent for entertainment value. I consider it a win.
If you don't enjoy scrapping with authority - don't try it, it could end up costing you or lately -- get you tasered -- even if you are a pregnant woman, one of their latest victims.
I also chased the irrigation district guys off of my land as they tried to widen their right of way because the canal was moving my way. They threatened me with a lawsuit. I played dirty pool there -- told them I and a bunch of environmentalist friends were going to make them remove all of the blacktop they put in the canals in all of Fresno county, to prevent erosion. I told them it was polluting our wells and they needed to pay for new ones. They called me back shortly after receiving my letter and told me they thought we could work something out.
In another case, the county decided they were going to enact permit fees for well drilling. The head of the drillers association said it was a done deal and nothing could be done about it. I said -- Oh yeah? I called the TV stations - told them what was up -- they came to my drilling rig -- did a report and aired it that night. The county's switchboards were jammed solid the next morning. They dropped it and said they just wanted the phones to stop ringing.
So -- yeah -- little chance of winning most of the time, but when you do -- it's really sweet. :)
So -- where was I -- oh, yeah, Pericles, -- hope you hang around here and bring these guys back to reality whenever I try to send them down the path to destruction. rofl.
It's not just the education you get studying this stuff. It gives you a whole new outlook on dealing with these issues. :)
Quote from: peternap on November 30, 2007, 08:38:55 PM
Wait a minute....I used to work for the Government....State and Federal! Oh the shame of it all! :( :( :(
Peter, My wife works for the Feds. Imagine the conflict in my mind there.
And we have a good internet friend of mine here that is an ex-fed also. He thinks I'm funny and is a great guy. :)
So -- If I step on any toes -- sorry -- It's not you I'm after --- really -- I'm after the whole system.:)
I found out that I'm anti-authoritarian. The shrink voice in my head found it on the internet and told me. rofl
So jump on in here if you are one of the authority types. Jump on in here -- we won't even make you confess your sins --- share with us and we'll share with you and probably even enjoy each others company.;)
Peter, My wife works for the Feds. Imagine the conflict in my mind there.
Glenn, My state work was regulatory and mostly engineering work. I had to make the power companies behave d*. Aside from being truly disappointed in the quality of our state agencies, it was pretty quiet.
The next 5 years was criminal work with a Federal fugitive task force. That left a lot of scars....both physical and emotional. Funny, I was digging around for my handcuffs this week for my uninvited guests.
After that I became self employed and much happier [cool]
I found out that I'm anti-authoritarian. The shrink voice in my head found it on the internet and told me.
I've always been that way. Dad tried to cure it by sending me to Military School. Just made me meaner. :)
I haven't always been that way.
Just since I had a teacher in the second grade who taught me about the government, it's history, it's goals and to question authority. ???
She didn't skim over it. I don't remember most of it now but I remember her teaching us words and meanings such as bourgeoisie (propertied class) and proletariat (working class)--(had to look that up).
She taught us how the ruling class tried to keep the peasants down in the dirt. I want to stand up just tall enough to keep from getting my knees dirty. ;D
I have been self employed since 1974 at which time I found out it was impossible for me to work for anybody else because it was not possible for me to submit to authority. ::) (Unless it was to my great benefit ---- to pretend to submit.) :)
Quote from: peternap on December 01, 2007, 02:27:20 AM
I was digging around for my handcuffs this week for my uninvited guests.
Peter, you know bears can't eat handcuffs. c*
Sure they can Des......You just have to wash them off a day or two later ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D c*
BTW....My uninvited Guests became the invited guest pf the county yesterday! :) :) :) :) :)
How cool is that Peter? Was it the same guys that were on camera?
You caught your uninvited guests, Peter? Tell us more.:)
Whoo Hoo! Good going, Peter.
I hope the court gets to show them the error of their ways.
I've not had a ny problems, so far (knock wood... ) but a camera should could be good to have.
Not much to tell Glenn.
I found someone that knew them and knew where they were hunting Saturday. .....maybe a little more more to it, but nothing exciting, just annoying. I'll post more in the everything else forum after they get to see the judge. :-[