I've looked at this topic for years. Unlike most that think we may have a huge economic collapse and Police will be at our doors to take our guns and that Grand Conspiracies exist...
I see it a little different.
In my opinion, the end started a long time ago, mid 60's. Very quietly, like the sniffles that will turn into the flu.
The problem is that very few people noticed. Even now when I feel we are about to meltdown, very few people notice.
Here's what I think will happen and I'd like to hear other opinions.
Our economy will continue the slide and our credit will not be honored by most of the world. Since all we are living on is credit anyway, international trade including food will trickle down causing shortages of just about everything.
I don't think the Police will do much of anything because I doubt they will be paid. A whole new blackmarket will emerge (sort of a back alley Walmart) and that's what most people will deal with. Gold, Silver and things with physical value will be the currency.
No gas (Just like the 70's just worse)
Insurance won't pay for medical services because the dollar will be worthless.
Some states will split off and re establish a better Government.
Lots of people will die from being poor.
It won't be a short term problem. America will have to be re-invented.
I think part of the reason the government keeps trying to implement gun control is that they are not sure when the people will get enough of their worthlessness and come after them. Police may still be there just because many of them just like to have power over people. The ever increasing amount of taserings and taser deaths show that many of them are in it for the sport - per a recent video.
I look for a massive government caused screw up at the very least. Policies may make the cost of fuel skyrocket -- trucking industry is already at the breaking point. 3 days max food in the city stores if there is no panic. Things should deteriorate rapidly in the cities - hard telling what the burp in the system may be. Martial law will probably be declared. Gove may get to try out their new concentration camps... I mean detention facilities they have had Haliburton build. Looks like .gov expects it too.
I belive it will be a slow meltdown. We won't see much violence until the supply of cheap/free food and brain numbing TV shows stops. The poor will be the first to feel it when their welfare gets cut do the government being broke. The rest will pour in like sand falling through an hourglass. The country will fragment into smaller city states and the federal government will implode. I don't see any other nations trying to move in on N. America because they will all have the same kinds of problems. I expect life will roll back to something like the 1800's except for the scattered patchwork of rebuilt technology kept alive for special purposes. Radio will return as the main media in this post debt crazed world. And yes alot of people will die in the process.
We will be sold out before we, the common citizen, even knows it's happened. Our "government" will legislate us into the hands of our new owners......It has already begun.....the question is just how much longer before it is complete.
The United states is not really a sovereign nation today. We are a part of Canada and Mexico...Our current government has made no telling how many deals with who know's what other governments. I saw Rummy addressing a group on the TV a few days ago. He said that if the United states were going to prosper in the years to come, we first had to "get past" the Constitution and we had to "accept" the fact that the military had to be in power over the "common" citizen.....sounded just like Hitler.....without all the hand waving.
The damage done in the last two administrations will never be repaired......mainly because many Americans refuse to believe it was done in the first place. To see our future in the U.S., study the country of Germany in the 1920's.....
The path has been walked before...refusing to look at it will not change the
destination.
The path germany took in the 1920's and 30' was laid out for them and financed by US industrialists among others. I don't see America taking the same path though there maybe some similarities. To what end? World domination? We can't even control Iraq. Problem America has now is that all it's slave labor countries have come to their senses and are now starting to profit from US. The money is flowing the wrong way for the first time in decades and the government can't or won't stop it. It's only a matter of time before we are financialy equal with the rest of the world. The goal of our government is perpetual war and waste of it's citizens time and money for the profit of the few. Problem is the supply of free money is running out. America stopping being free a long time ago. What they teach in schools is prpaganda lies.
Scott
The ultra conservative political party of Germany assisted in placing an ultra ultra right-winger in office....he was ELECTED in a public election. After the election, this right-winger started the process of changing the government into something other than that which was the "norm". The MOST ultra right-wingers then turned on the majority party and stopped the government from working as it was designed.
This man, the ELECTED leader and his select few then turned an entire nation into a war machine.......
They stold an election....they changed the constitution of the country.....they used a threat of terrorism from outside the country as a tool to manipulate the public. They suspended the legal rights of the citizens of the country and flooded the country with a worker class, who were not the citizens of the country......When the ecomomy was near collapse, these ultra-conservative nut jobs...offered a way out....Throw out the Constitution and serve the Dictator. The military was used to make sure the people obeyed the New Order......
NO...it's not EXACTLY the same.....but it's close enough to be scary!
My history was learned 30 years ago....I don't know what crap they teach today...but I'm sure it's more propaganda than fact......everything else involving THIS administration is!
Great rants, guys. Glad I'm not the only one.:)
We have relatives who are so blind they absolutely refuse to believe we are in meltdown. Their eyes are closed and they blow up if you suggest they take a look at reality....prayed to god at the Thanksgiving dinner and thanked him for the stability of our country and a ton of other drivel. I assume it was his god, Bush. I almost barfed and was ready to walk out. >:(
This from Neal Boortz (Libertarian talk show radio). November 28/2005
The death of America will more likely come from the advancement of the American welfare state.
Empires have life expectancies. The history of civilization would tell us that a country based on freedom and economic liberty generally last just a bit over 200 years. If you know of such a society that has lasted well beyond the 200-year mark, let me know. I haven't been able to find one. Our Constitution was ratified on December 15th, 1791. In just a few weeks the United States of America will be 214 years old. That, for those of you who went to government schools, is just a bit over 200 years.
You can trace the decline of American to several different and varied beginning point. Among them:
1. The adoption of a graduated and progressive income tax, as envisioned by Karl Marx.
2. The adoption of a system of government education of our children, again as envisioned by Karl Marx.
3. The movement away from a rule of law to a rule of the majority (Democracy) which really took hold during the days of Franklin Roosevelt.
America, the welfare state, is growing steadily. In the last few weeks we started George Bush's Medicare prescription drug program. The original estimates for this welfare boondoggle ran at about $300 billion for the next ten years. Those estimates doubled before the program even began. The actual tab will probably be closer to one trillion dollars for the first ten years .. and growing after that. Baby boomers will be retiring over the next decade. As they retire they will start drawing down Social Security and Medicare dollars by the bucketful. The cost will be enormous. As presently structured, these income transfer programs can't handle it, but all attempts at reform, at least insofar as Social Security is concerned, have failed.
Back to the main point. Americans are no longer in love with freedom. In fact, the case can be made that Americans are afraid of freedom. Oh, they want to be free to go on vacation and to chose where to live, who to marry and what to wear each day, but that just about covers it. Americans want the government to educate their children, guarantee their jobs, determine their wages, provide them with medical care, pay for their prescriptions, ensure their comfort in retirement, regulate their business competitors, and control the actions of their neighbors. If you suggest that the responsibility for any of these factors be placed back into the hands of the individual the screams and howls of outrage and indignation will be heard across the country.
I have always questioned the "welfare state" crap....but now.....I am starting to believe it.
HOWEVER...I do NOT believe it's the give-aways to the poor or challenged in this country....I believe the welfare that will destroy us, will be the give-away programs for military contractors and weapons manufactures and the waste on illegal wars like the one in Iraq ( at a Trillion dollars expected now)....
The pennies that are given to physically or mentally challenged people can't touch that. Even the few dollars that are given to those folks that are just too plain lazy to work have little effect on our nation.
A TRILLION dollars for one mess, two be paid for in the next century by our yet unborn generations ....most of it unaccounted for.....and no politician seems to care. Of course there are a few who profit from this.....BUT, they're NOT the less fortunate....The welfare that IS going to break the United States will be the burden put on those FEW citizens who can find a job and are than forced to pay un-needed tax to fatten the pockets of already rich crooks who buy our poilticians.
The system IS broken.......BUT...it has little to do with being a welfare state. Before we decide to stop our aid to those who really need of our help, OUR OWN CITIZENS, let's stop wasting our money of those who DO NOT need it...the rich and powerful. d*
Quote from: glenn kangiser on November 29, 2007, 09:35:52 PM
Great rants, guys. Glad I'm not the only one.:)
We have relatives who are so blind they absolutely refuse to believe we are in meltdown. Their eyes are closed and they blow up if you suggest they take a look at reality....prayed to god at the Thanksgiving dinner and thanked him for the stability of our country and a ton of other drivel. I assume it was his god, Bush. I almost barfed and was ready to walk out. >:(
Same here Glenn,
They prayed for peace in Iraq and in the next breath ask for blessings on our military machine and it's Commander in Chief. As a kid playing football, I always wondered why our coach had a prayer before each game that ask God to help us KILL the other team?
Was football THAT important?
1Cor.13
[11] When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
This country needs to GROW UP :o
1Cor.13
[11] When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
This country needs to GROW UP :o
[/quote] by Williet
Amen!
Did anyone see the link to YouTube on the $2.3 billion unaccounted for by the Pentagon on 9/10/2001 - Rumsfield is speaking... here it is again - this isn't a one-time event - this happens every year to the tune of at least a $billion! Also the CIA will never give an accounting of what money they have, where they spend it etc, citing "gov't security"
http://benfrank.net/patriots/news/national/pentagon_missing_trillions
I agree, also, it isn't so much the little guy who gets their welfare check either because of hardship or "laziness" but the big corporations, S&L's, corporate farms that get the big subsidies, bailouts with taxpayers' $$$$ that breaks our nation. >:( >:( d*
Ironically enough I have just been (re)reading Ayn Rands book, Atlas Shrugged. This sounds like another chapter. I read that book years ago and had no idea what it meant. Reading it today is entirely different. "When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things." When the student is ready the teacher will appear?
When I see Peter saying things like "America will have to be re-invented" or Scott A say things like "we are all hiding in the trees hoping no one will notice" (in another thread) makes me feel like I am not reading a novel. Perhaps Ayn Rand was a great prophet, just considerably ahead of her time. Another spiritual moment for the dawg?
I am eager for spring so I can get to the mountains and get busy. I now have the time and I have a lot of material stashed. Peter, should we start converting our assets to gold and machines like Ayn Rands characters did? I guess you would have to read the book.
Peter, should we start converting our assets to gold and machines like Ayn Rands
Yes...no and a little d*
I have always been conservative with investments Des. I have land with timber. I have machines because I have always been a do it myselfer. Some of it comes from the bad years when I could barely feed the family. If I couldn't do it with what I had, it wouldn't get done.
I do have some gold and silver that I've accumulated over the years. I also have some stocks that have done very well (Solar mostly)
I have guns and guns are a solid investment in any economy.
As far as the problems coming....I'm pretty sure!
How they will come and what will happen is another thing. Most of us here are pretty self reliant anyway. Not because we are survivalists (A lot of whom I consider nuts) but because we enjoy being self reliant.
Realizing that our country is in trouble is a little like realizing that your father really isn't the toughest fellow on the block. For a long time he is the biggest, smartest and richest man around and then one day,,,reality hits and you know, he's just a man. A man you love, but still just a human.
Our country is just a country. One that's being run poorly and is in essence...broke.
It will just happen and one day you'll discover that things others said would happen and you said "Not in this country"....are happening.
I got shot once. I didn't feel any pain and wasn't knocked off my feet...but I looked down and saw the blood and said to myself....I don't believe this just happened. (actually, it was a little more colorful expression than that...but that sums it up :( )
I have one word.....Revelation.
:heh <---great emote you need to steal from my site.
Interesting Desdawg:
I too am reading Atlas Shrugged. I read The Fountainhead in college and it made the romantic in me turn towards architecture. I was hoping for the same from Atlas.
However romantic, I find Ayn Rand's understanding of market economics generally limited and often dead wrong. I wouldn't bet much money on her reading of the future (a future where the business leader "creatives" have had enough of government meddling and go on strike.)
Rand aside I am now a firm believer in the "muddle through" forces (another name for evolution) of market economics and see it as a stabilizing factor in the world - especially now that it is augmented by worldwide electronic communications and internet transactions. While I feel we need more regulation of monopolies than Rand would probably tolerate, I agree that the market must be kept clear and open for trade, innovation and enlightened self-interest.
If we do that, we can more-or-less muddle through most of the readjustments that have already been identified in this thread. Life will change, and we may all have to adjust to making do with less stuff.[toilet] But that isn't necessarily a bad thing.
That is interesting John that we would both be reading that book at this time. I was seeing some parallels between her characters dropping out and many people here on this site building in the woods somewhere across the US with the same thing in mind.
Personally, I am of the boomer generation. I wasn't ready to retire just yet but the housing market speeded up my departure from the workforce. Now that I have stopped I realize just how tired I was of fighting the fight. I was pretty hammered by the insurance companies, hammered by all of the taxing agencies, employment laws, oil companies, regulators, etc., all of the things we take in stride when we are blowing and going. So when I see one of these rants mentioning things I can relate to I get a little exuberant. Then I have to stop and wonder how many of the ranters have the strength of their convictions and put their money where their mouth is. For instance if you believe the $ will be worthless are you converting your assets to precious metals? If you believe health insurance won't be capable of paying off are you still paying health insurance premiums? If you believe SS will be worthless have you stashed enough away to cover yourself somewhere else?
As for Ayn Rand and her story, if we just continue to "muddle through" will there be any changes or will the oppression continue to escalate? Maybe a strike would be a good thing. The big money controls the politics and policy making and that may be the only way the little people will ever be heard. Somewhere along the way charging everything off to the little guy has to stop. If enough talent becomes unavailable so the big money makers can't prosper will they listen? That is already happening in the excavating industry. I read about it in my trade publications. The recruiters for the big contractors aren't getting enough new talent to operate equipment and we boomers are leaving. New recruiting tactics are being explored but the work ethic of genX is not the same and the void is not being filled. At least that is what I am reading. The trade associations are concerned enough to be publishing articles about it.
Then again maybe this is the evolution you spoke of. We won't just drop out and go on strike we will retire. We will apply for SS and let the next generation figure out how to keep the committment that has been made. Personally, I don't think they can or will. And therein lies the problem, at least for me. So at the moment I am pretty happy to be shut down and not paying in to all of the things I was before. And I hope there are enough people doing the same to where we will be sorely missed. We were the cash flow, the life blood of the economy. And now we are not. Enough ranting from this corner.
Hi Folks, Very strange, I too picked a copy of 'Atlas' recently. Was watching C-Span a couple of weeks ago and they had a special on Rand for the 50th anniv. of something(?). I vaguely recall reading some of her stuff about 35-40 years ago. Interesting site at atlassociety.com (http://atlassociety.com/) Later,Sparks
EDIT: cleaned up link - MtnDon
... 50th Anniversary of the publishing of Atlas Shrugged (http://www.amazon.com/Atlas-Shrugged-Ayn-Rand/dp/0452011876/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1197254884&sr=8-1)
Thanks Mountain Don, I'm still learning (evolving) ! (??)
One thing at a time. There's a lot of things to learn.
FYI, Not everyone realizes they they can edit or modify their own posts. Just look for the Modify tag at top right of every post you make.
I just read another reference to Atlas Shrugged somewhere in the last few days. It's like --- The Twilight Zone, eh?hmm
It is a very long book. But I am enjoying re-reading it. I also read the Fountainhead many years ago. I read all of the time. Waaay back when I was in High School I had a Lit teacher who would give us reading assignments and then when we discussed in class what we had read she would say things like "Now what was the author really talking about?" and we would disect the material and it's social implications. I still do that today. Of course all authors aren't "deep" like that but it is fun sometimes to find one that is. It is an artform I guess.
In another thread I mentioned Jeremiah Johnson, the movie. That movie spoke to choices, actions, consequences both to yourself and others, peer pressure or societal pressure. There was really a lot going on in that film besides it being just an entertaining story line. Robert Redford seems to enjoy doing that type of film and that is his art.
In Atlas Shrugged somewhere if I could ever find it again the question was posed that if you encountered Atlas carrying the weight of a really screwed up world on his shoulders what would you advise him to do? The answer was to shrug. Thus the name of the book.
In this book the government was rewarding people based on their need rather than what they produced. The creators and the inventors, the industrialists were losing the rights to their creations and achievments. To make a long story short the achievers of the world went on strike and one by one started disappearing from society. The great minds were congregating in a hidden valley in the Colorado Rockies and re-inventing an industrial society. They were cashing in the assets they could salvage and exchanging them for gold and industrial machinery. Their departure was causing the collapse of the society they left behind. They referred to the people that were running the government as the looters. So that is the story in a nutshell. The theory was that the government could only screw you if you continued to give them permission by your continued participation. If you withdrew that the power was gone. Anything sound familiar?
The only thing missing from our world is leaving the looters.
This might fit in here ???
Global Banks Embrace Islam
What Islam could not achieve in centuries through military aggression, terrorism and political hardball, will now be accomplished by the global banking community that is stampeding to dominate Islamic banking ruled by totalitarian and brutal Shari'a law. Indeed, this brand of Islamic banking is the mother of all Trojan horses. Every citizen of every non-Islamic country should immediately see the clear and present danger presented by this unholy alliance.
http://www.augustreview.com/issues/global_banking/global_banks_embrace_islam_2007121282/
That is some pretty harsh stuff Sassy. Gotta be careful what you name your teddy bear. I don't suppose those are wet noodle lashes either, probably the real thing. I hope I don't have any accounts with the wrong banks and become a default member.
I am real disoriented right now. I wasn't planning on quitting just yet but it seemed to work out that way. In September my Contractors Liability Insurance was up for renewal, $2500 for another year of 1M coverage, required to work in the county right of way. I let it lapse. Now my truck registrations are due, about $1500 for my dump truck and service truck. I am not renewing. If I want to use them I can always get a plate later. Cancelled my liability insurance on the trucks, $2331 per year, liability only and restricted to a 100 mile radius of home base. I am, or was, just a small contractor. My contractors license is good until July 2009. I vacilate between being happy to be out of the rat race and angry at the necessity forced by circumstances. So if I sound like I am bouncing off the walls it is only because I am. I had no idea that this transition would be this hard mentally. I have never been a quitter. But to pony up these costs in the hopes of a turnaround seems like it would be akin to financial suicide. Anyway, if I have offended anyone I apologize. I am not my normal self at the moment. d*
I also picked up "Atlas Shrugged" but set it down in favor of other stuff that also burns my stomach. Looks like I set it down too soon.
I work in IT in the San Francisco Bay Area. Sometimes on my way out of yet another meeting I think how one not-inconceivable catastrophe would make everything we are doing here meaningless. I worry that the people buying too much house today will want my 401(k) tomorrow.
Making more and saving more doesn't seem to be the answer, though not saving is an even worse solution. My savings are in US dollars (which are valued on a process outside my control) in US financial institutions, which can receive new instructions at any time. Cap the interest rate. New tax. "Wealth" assessment.
For the record, I am not a rich man. I'm just a going concern.
Henry Ford said, "If money is your hope for independence you will never have it. The only real security that a man will have in this world is a reserve of knowledge, experience, and ability." I think that this, along with reducing my cost basis, is the way to a safer (not safe - never happen) footing. We are learning to build our own house which we will own outright and know how to fix. We volunteer at a CSA farm so that we can learn to grow our own clean food. I've got a list of skills I am working up to take care of ourselves or trade with other folks.
In all likelihood the end will happen without us noticing and we'll only figure it out much later when the wave comes to our neighborhood.
I have offended anyone I apologize.
I'm certainly offended Des ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
I know how you feel. You do know that you don't have to retire don't you.
I'm going through the same thing. My business has been falling off for a couple of years. This year I made ten times more playing in the stock market part time, than I did working full time. That isn't the answer because it can lose more than I made with one poor move.
I have for years, built muzzle loading rifles, canes, knives and hatchets/hawks. I may just close the company and do this for income. I have money saved and investments.....but not enough to retire on and insure my wife is comfortable after I meet my reward....so I'll need to do something. The burb house is paid for, barn house is paid for, farm paid for, cars, truck, etc all paid for, so I don't have to make a lot of money.
I want to farm more on a small, low overhead basis.
There are lots of things you can do. That's one of the GREAT things about being skilled. You have options. Don't just stop. Slow down and do some other things you want to try. ;) Have some fun...go through another childhood :)
I do have a few other irons in the fire. If you corkscrew your way through AZ starting in Nogales and ending in the NW part of the state you can drive by 60+ properties that either have my name or one of my LLC's name on them. I don't lack for something to do. But the excavating business was my bread & butter. The items I listed were just some basic overhead items that I paid every year. And that incomplete list amounted to quite a few dollars that have been removed from the economy. If there are more people like me across the country imagine the ripple effect that impact has overall. So when I say the only ballot I ever get to cast that really has an affect is when I sit down at my desk and write a check or don't sit down and don't write a check that is what I am talking about. When I vote in a presidential election my vote gets lost in some electoral college somewhere and it really isn't my vote at all. So maybe that is where we are missing the boat. We can vote better from home than we can in any ballot box. Of course that would require a unified effort that we only have in times of crisis. So when I ask who has the strength of their convictions that is what I am really asking about.
When I talk about the Robert Redford character Jeremiah Johnson saying "I've been to a town" I laugh because I too have been to a town. While I was there I was the Mayor for nearly four years. It was a small town in Colorado, no big deal. The point is when I see something I don't like I look for a way to make a difference. Ranting may precipitate change but some form of action actually can make it happen. What action, where? That seems to be the missing ingredient in most scenarios. People talk but what do they actually do?
I was a 28 year old long haired ex-marine living in Colorado with a wife and two kids. My other long haired friends were going to make a difference by withdrawing from the system, drawing unemployment and welfare and eating food stamps. Not. They didn't withdraw from the system, they became dependent on it. They gave the system control of their lives. I would try to tell them they couldn't change anything from the outside in they had to change it from the inside out. So I put my name on a ballot to run for the town board and was elected. The Mayor resigned and I was appointed to take his place. Two years later I was re-elected for another two year term. I got to make a difference from the inside out. That was just a little grass root thing. When you get to the bigger picture you run into bigger players and it becomes way more difficult. If you haven't been groomed for politics for most of your adult life you will never make the cut in the current system at that level. So we have to find another way to vote, another way to make our ideas strong enough to be heard. The checkbook is the only way I have to do that. If we continue spending on things we don't believe in we give someone our permission to continue. So I revert to the old saying about putting my money where my mouth is. Does it make a difference? At the local level, yes. When we are measuring dollars in trillions probably not. But it makes me feel better. [frus]
Can you define "groomed for politics", desdawg? hmm
I assume if I wanted to groom my child for politics I would want to make him, greedy, money grubbing, lustful for power, uncaring, unfaithful, bisexual for when he gets to DC, no cares for how many have to die to accomplish the will of the elite if he is running for president in the future, a desire to keep the oil flowing no matter how many sons and daughters have to die in our armed forces...etc.
Useful also to his success would be to teach him how to work inside deals without getting caught. Every holder of high office that I have researched seems to have this quality, so I know it would be great training.
I could teach him that if people may possible snitch him out that there are ways in the high politics world to get rid of these threats. The world doesn't need Vince Fosters, John Kennedys, (or Jrs) or scientist who may blow the whistle on scams he has pulled. I could train him to ignore and lose his conscience so these things and the plight of the lower quality working class people would not enter his mind.
I could insure his success by giving him all of these qualities, I'm sure...no doubt...but would I still want to claim him as a son. hmm
;D ;D ;D
I think the training you are talking about either happens as "closet training" or after the election. It helps if you are born with a silver spoon. Then you have to go to the right schools, marry into the right family, develop the right contacts, live in such a way as to provide as little mud to sling as possible. Once you survive that and get elected then you can move on to the good stuff and become properly corrupted. Way back I used to hear that in this great nation anyone could become President. I don't believe that for a minute. :(
You paint a very graphic picture of politics Glen. I remember learning some of these skills when I first went into business. Like how to stone wall when confronted or how to win arguments no matter what you had to say to win. The truth is what I say it is and being fair will get you the shaft every time. Or how to disect the wording of a contract to get what you want no matter how much common sence you had to throw out to do it. Bussiness isn't much different than politics.
I have been self employed in business since 1974, Scott, and early on I got a book called W.S.O.B's.S.A.N.G.F.I.A.S.B.
The longer name. Why SOB's Succeed And Nice Guys Fail In A Small Business.
While I didn't stake my life on all it said, it was enlightening. The publisher and Author were fairly anonymous and I could never find them or anymore of their writings later.
I worked for a liar for six months so decided that was definitely not a way to do business, so always avoided putting myself in the position of lying or carefully worded my statements to avoid needing to be in a position to. Always trying to leave myself an out.
One of the things that stuck with me was that while you are climbing up the ladder of success you can drop rocks on the people who are struggling to climb up the ladder below you. Not that that is my policy. I always try to work to our mutual benefit with competitors and other business people first -- then drop rocks on the jerks -- that's all. ;D
Honesty is the best policy. Old saying that still holds true. In a small community like this one you have to travel on your reputation. Of course the best thing is to have a good one. I had a competitor that didn't and he was my best advertising. I had mobile home dealers telling me their customers were saying yes, they would buy a home/land package as long as that competitor wasn't doing any of the work. He wasn't allowed on their property. So I learned that if you made a mistake, just admit it, fix it and go on. Whatever that costs is a pittance in the long run. I have had many referrals from building & health department inspectors and technically they are not supposed to recommend anyone.
It's the same way here, desdawg. Everybody knows what your policy is so you can't afford to do a bad job even if it cost you money...but that will insure your continued success in the long run.
I agree I was just being sarcastic. I've always tried to be straight up with my customers and give them what they paid for. Thing I have noticed the last few years is people trying to get alot more than they paid for and thats where the problems start and why I want out.
Yeah -- I know that one. Thats why I quit dealing with most of the general public. I pick my customers and nearly always have them make progress payments that keep them a bit ahead of what they owe me if possible. By dealing with a trusted few companies I don't get beat out of money so often. Most of my jobs are fairly profitable, but for a good customer in a bind I will tighten the belt occasionally.
I avoid doing contract work for friends if I think there may be problems and want to keep the friend -- I just get too busy or do some stuff for trade with them. Others that I know are fair - I work with -- no problem.
After enough years in business you learn to read the customer pretty well immediately..but if you don't have some of that skill from the start you wont have years in business.
Nearly any problems or unreasonableness while negotiating with a potential customer sets a red flag for me. I have seen many jobs I turned down stopped for non-payment or problems after some other contractor got it.
Those are all good points. I always preferred working with companies that I had relationships with over working for individuals. Not only was it repeat business but it was a good steady source of work. I printed a price list so their sales people would know how to sell a job that included my work without having to get a bid each time. A 1000 gallon septic system was $X, electical runs so much a foot, etc. I usually met with their customers and drew their site plans for them at no charge if I was doing the job. That little freebe kept them coming back, in fact they got to depend on it. It worked out pretty well for me and them.
I also like niche markets. I like to do the stuff thats to small for some and too big for others -- things others can't do and to have the ability to do nearly any job that comes along -- but that being sure of getting paid is number one.
I also will work to a good customer's budget if it seems reasonable. I get quite a bit of work filling in for contractors who have bid but don't have the manpower to do the job when necessary - schedule conflicts etc.
I find it is better to estimate high and negotiate to a lower price when possible. I get a lot of jobs at a reasonable high price but have the ability to drop my price to meet the customers finances if it is still worth it. That is always better than underbidding a job, as I don't like to ask for more money due to unexpected problems. It just doesn't look good and is not good if you expect to get repeat customers. If necessary I complete the job and eat the loss but never walk away from it.
I enjoyed Desdawg's action adventure stories. :D
Working at the local level elected politics can work pretty well. If we had more folks like this "Dawg" we might not be quite as jaded and unwilling to invest any faith in our "democratic system". Small government and small business can be about productivity and serving a need. Big Government and Big Business, on the other hand, often end up doing deals that manipulate power and gain monopoly advantage. This can drain away courageous creative solutions and entrench fear and encumbantism. (Is that a word??)
A final note about Atlas Shrugged... I'm reminded of the time in which Rand wrote and how it is reflected in the narrative. The early 50's were a time when the Marxist/socialist wave was gaining favor in much of the world. Atlas Shrugged is a very strong statement pointing out the corrosive character of the caretaker society and the often misunderstood power of innovation and productivity that an open capitalistic system can produce.
That lesson is one the world has pretty much learned in the last 50 years. Just look at China! :o
I enjoy Desdog's stories also. It's good to see positive results. I have never seen much positive. I went to Military school for a while. When I went into the service, nothing was the way it was taught. That was during Viet Nam.
I worked for two different State Agencies. It was impossible to write useful staff recommendations because of the politics. The second agency was a law enforcement role and the amount of behind the scenes dealing between Administration and Corporate, was just astonishing.
I worked for a Federal agency as a contract employee and again, it was seedy.
While I was still civilized, I was on the local planning commission and later the planning district commission....again, very political and not very productive.
On the other hand, my father, who is still very active, is a lawyer who has always specialized in Government law. He has been the Attorney for a number of towns and counties for years and still represents a few of them. He is very pro growth and loves regulation. I went home yesterday for a family dinner and he and I sniped at each other for an hour or more about my lack of respect for local building codes.
I've been in and out of several businesses over the years and to be honest, I don't understand why the entire structure hasn't collapsed by now.
Your comment about muddle through economics is well thought out but...I think we've been muddleing through for a good while now and I think we're out of wiggle room.
I could be wrong though, I was once ;D
When was that, Peter? ??? When you doubted yourself?
That happens to me a lot. ;D
John, you nailed that book pretty well. It was written in different times. I guess I was struck by the similarities of people in the story going on strike and people now coming here to learn how to build a little place in the toolies so they can withdraw individually.
As for me, muddling through necessitated a tactical withdrawal. The local political and economic climate made it financially unwise for me to continue. At age 59 and with another five years (IMO) of a down housing market would put me at age 64 by the time it is over and stabalized once more. I would be looking to quit at that time anyway. The calls I have been getting have been for little small jobs, not the stuff running even a small company with all of its overhead is made of. Everything costs.
I remember the Carter Administration when home interest rates hit as high as 18%. I was young and dumb and kept blowing and going anyway when I should have taken a tactical withdrawal. But I just couldn't imagine it taking as long as it did to get corrected which was well into the Reagan Administration.
As for being involved in grassroot government, it was all part of my education. I didn't go to college. I have a Bachelors degree from the School of Hard Knocks and am currently working on my Masters. d*
Peter, I am glad to hear you are no longer civilized. It gives me hope and a sense of not being alone. ;)
Glenn, you doubted yourself? n* I've been doing that right along, but I prefer to call it introspection. Ah, semantics!
When was that, Peter? Huh? When you doubted yourself?
Not doubt Glenn....I was convinced I had made a mistake!
rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl
Wow what a discussion! When will the end come I hope it isn't soon cause I just started to get it together!! I am not realy worried to much about it cause there isn't much I can do to stop it. I myself tried to learn how to survive in this world knowing it can change at any moment. All the planing in the world is not a garenteed that your plan will work or if it will have to change at the last moment. I figure I need to have a few guns and plenty of ammo, warm cloths, some food and water ect along with a tent to survive. Second part is if the bottom falls out I will just take what I need like all the others will be doing and the strong will survive. As far as having my home all confey to live out a over throw of our goverment that will never happen I will have to be able to keep moving around to stay safe. So these things I won't lose no sleep over just enjoy life for what it is day to day. I am glad I don't need meds to stay alive cause it would be hard to get them if the bottom falls out and there are tons of people who will die do to this. Try and plan ahead for that problem? Anyway Glenn I like your style! I also was a contractor for 13 years but smashed both hands between some rollers and wamo that instant my carrear was over!! Closed shop soon after that cause I did not want or have employies to deal with. Glad my fingers started working again but I just can't work to many days in a row due to them hurting. So in tring to figure what to do next I sold my place on the Coast Side of the Mountains (Rat Race Side) and moved to the East Side of them where land was cheap (for a while!) and built a paid for home on 40 acs sorta in the middle of no-where. Figured a few different ways to make a living since I have been self employed for the last 22+ years and no way am I going back to work 8-5 again. Don't have a need for a lot of money and as long as I am healthy I will do OK. Life is to short to try to figure a way to get rich now I just want to enjoy it spending as much time doing what I want to do. So far my plan has worked the last 12 years over here. I retired at 45 and only fight fires for fun a few months a year to pay the bills. The rest of the 8-10 months I sorta do as I please. Life is sweet as far as I am concerned! Mark
Thanks Mark, I have my moments. I'm probably not quite as big in real life. [crz]
I said I doubted myself some, desdawg but in honesty, it probably didn't really happen. ??? I was just making conversation. ;D
Mark, I agree and think flexibility and knowledge of a wide variety of things is key to survival in the event of a major change or if the system comes unglued.
Peter, you mean someone else convinced you you made a mistake? Sounds like the garden of eden all over again. ::)
...that should get me into trouble a couple of times. [scared]
Quote from: glenn kangiser on December 30, 2007, 10:22:34 PM
Thanks Mark, I have my moments. I'm probably not quite as big in real life. [crz]
I said I doubted myself some, desdawg but in honesty, it probably didn't really happen. ??? I was just making conversation. ;D
Mark, I agree and think flexibility and knowledge of a wide variety of things is key to survival in the event of a major change or if the system comes unglued.
Peter, you mean someone else convinced you you made a mistake? Sounds like the garden of eden all over again. ::)
We should all have a get away place to go to just in case. My home is sorta just that and self relianant. I have my own water supply, fire protection, back up diesel generator, food, tools ect. If I lived in the city I sure would have a small cabin out in the woods to go to for a lot of different reasons. Disasters are the main ones, just to get away from the masses!! Mark H.
...that should get me into trouble a couple of times. [scared]
I'm at the point where I only tolerate the masses for the minimum amount of time I have to.
I must return to the mountain and rest in my native soil at night to retain my sanity (or insanity)...at least whenever I can. I've been to the city. Good quote, eh?
Ah yes, all of those people. Even the small towns in AZ swell up in the wintertime when the snowbirds come flocking in. Raise the temperature to 100+ and it clears right out. Summertime here stops being fun right quick.
Peter, you mean someone else convinced you you made a mistake? Sounds like the garden of eden all over again. Roll Eyes
That's amazing that you knew that Glenn ;)
I was in the garden and saw a snake. I picked it up and it said "You made a BIG mistake. Put me down and eat an apple".... For a short time I thought he was right and reached for the apple.
But I came to my senses. I don't like apples so I ate the snake! rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl
Good choice, Peter. rofl