CountryPlans Forum

Dollar's in the crapper.  Stock market is artificially propped up just waiting for someone to kick the prop out.  Your SS dollars will soon make good toilet paper.  Most of the rest of the world is or will soon be drastically cutting down on taking US dollars.  The printing presses are cranking them out full speed ahead and the rest of the world knows it.  We quit reporting how many are being printed.

Soon we may have to just fend for ourselves.  :o

What are your plans now that uncle Sam has quit holding your hand, left the country and run off with all the money?

Peter Nap inspired this thread - off grid or going.

What are we doing to improve our future? ???

I'm looking forward to seeing the responses to this Glenn.
Before anyone starts on the hardware, I'd like to throw in my 0.02 on adjusting to changing times.
There has been a disturbing trend in this country over the years. For lack of a better title, I'll call it the selfish family. My wife and I have always been "WE" or "US"...not her or him.

Money has always been our money not mine or hers. We have faced everything together and each had full voting rights. My wife is also my best friend...sometimes I think she's the only friend i have d*

I see that same relationship between you and Sassy and in fact...it seems to be a common trait with everyone I know that would rather do things for themselves.

So many married couples now are more like two people living together. The kids get raised by day care and the whole group is dysfunctional.

Our family has to be the basic government in order to be able to function without all the outside support and from that relationship, we can add all the hardware needed to be self sufficient.

End of sermon ;D

Now that Ive gotten the speech out of the way.....

Years ago we looked at what we will need in case of financial problems. There is no reason to go into investments so the basics are food, water, sanitation and heat.

Food is an issue that needs a lot of thought and will be different for everybody. I am a Va Cooperative extension service certified Master Gardner. That is a program set up by the Extension Service to create unpaid agents.

My specialty is composting and organic growing and  intensive growing. I have always had a garden and use no pesticides or manufactured fertilizers. I can and do grow a lot of food in a remarkably small space.

I have also cleared and planted 10 acres in hay. I have an arrangement with one of the local Beef ranchers to trade the hay for beef. He does the bailing and transporting. I just supply the land. It really cuts the food budget to not buy beef every year.

I have 2 acres in Blueberries. Very easy to grow and good trading material. They also make great gifts. I have another 20 acres that I cleared but don't do anything other than scatter Buckwheat in for the turkeys. This can all be used to grow food if needed.

This is all fun for me andisn't part of my living. It will however, play an important part of my retirement (If you want to calll it that)

Here in WI I am frustrated at how little we can do.  In OK, we raised most of what we ate, with the exception of red meat (which we hardly ever ate because we didn't have it on hand) and milk, and the occasional loaf of store-bought bread.  We had free-range chickens and a large garden.  There were two pecans and apples from a golden delicious apple tree that made good trade items as well as Christmas gifts.  We canned or froze in summer to eat in winter.  Eventually, we'd like to move back to OK, AR, KS, TX, MO or even NM and buy land... preferably OK or MO... and build an off-grid home, or at least a mostly energy independent home, and raise pretty much everything we eat there.

I see more and more people interested in old ways of doing things as they slowly begin to realize that their grandparents weren't crazy, so I'd really like to teach young women how to do for themselves and their families.  When we lived in Oklahoma before, I became friends with two very different young ladies, a young Korean wife and a northern city girl raised in Toronto...  I taught them how to garden without having to water all the time in Oklahoma's hot summers, taught the Korean girl how to bake homemade bread from grain to finished loaf, and we all canned vegetables and pickles together, and through the process I realized that there are people out there who want to learn stuff like that, and a lot more of them that we'd ever think... they just don't have a clue where to begin.  The Korean girl now lives in NJ and is raising two sons, but she's growing a lot of their vegetables in containers on their balcony and baking her own bread.  The other woman is still in OK, and each year she expands her garden a little more to grow a little more of their food in her suburban plot.  I guess there is also a lot for me to learn, but I'd like to share what I do know with others who could benefit from it... maybe provide a modern homesteading class?

Great start to this thread.

I like the old ways also because they offer a simple solution to get the job done.  I have quite a few old books with methods of the past in them and Google Books is a great place to find old books - out of copyright that have tons of information on old methods.  Too mudh really but everytime you browse through one you will learn something.

My goal here is to be entirely self sufficient hopefully with an excess so I can share freely with others in need.  Currently most are not in dire need but the future looks like more could be.  Homegrown's idea of sharing the knowledge and encouraging others to do likewise is a great way to help our friends and neighbors. ;)

Peter,  Amen to your "sermon"!   ;)  I have a request... could you elaborate in more detail on your gardening secrets?  It seems like this thread would be a good area for more info as we are talking "self-sufficiency"  - BTW, didn't know you are "certified Master Gardener"   [cool]  now I know who to ask!

Homegrown, how do you plant in the hot Oklahoma sun & not need a whole lot of water?  You mulch a lot, don't you?  Our well doesn't produce a whole lot of water & our garden takes an exorbitant amt...  your homesteading classes would be a great outreach. 

We have a lot of land we could allow for grazing & year-around spring to water the animals - we haven't gotten into our own animals or rather we haven't been successful - too many wild animals around here that are very good at getting into just about anything.  We'll get more chickens eventually, we had ducks, guinea hens & turkeys but only have 2 chickens left.  We had a goat & sheep but something got the goat & the sheep was a Ram & he got pretty onery & untrustworthy - we'd get ewes next time.  This all takes good fences & some way to keep the coyotes, bears, mountain lions, raccoons, skunks, possums, bobcats & foxes out.   :-\ 

There's a lot more we can do... wish I had more energy!   ::)

We free ranged our chickens & ducks at 1st but they got picked off one by one so had to pen them up.  After a short while, there wasn't a blade of grass left - it was a fairly good sized fenced area for them to run around in - had to cover the top with chicken wire also to keep the owls & hawks out & other myriad animals.  There's a hen house attached to the fenced area.

Was just checking into my retirement...  not great - with the stock market falling like crazy, that big nest egg isn't so big anymore, even though I have most of the money in "safe" gov't bonds  ::)  :D  social security - don't know about that & my pension isn't a whole lot either.  Health insurance will be sky high if we have to pay it all ourselves...
How are other people dealing with these issues?

One of our goals is to eventually be debt free.  A good portion of our property is paid for, still have some equipment we are paying on - rental income helps - we are supporting 2 households still - but neither are real expensive - the cabin is off grid & I keep the utilities etc pretty low at the other place in the valley when I'm there.  Once I retire from the job in the valley, we'll be able to move everything up to the cabin (we still have a lot of work to do in the main part of the cabin to make it liveable) & then we can rent that house out.  So.....  we're working on becoming totally self-sufficient...  :)

I like to recommend a fun website that lends itself to self sufficiency.
www.homesteadingtoday.com

Thanks Stink, I'll check it out. :)

Gotta work a bit now.

Stinkerbell, that's a great forum, just looking it over - lots of good info!  Thanks.   :)

Sassy, you guessed it on the garden... I built raised straw-bale beds and there was a lot of OM (mainly composted chicken manure and hay/straw/lawn clippings/kitchen scraps. ) On the tomato bed, before I built the bed, I laid down a soaker hose and left the attachment unburied where I could get to it.  I only used it a little after I first transplanted the tomatoes outdoors, and a little in August when we'd had a really long dry spell.  Inevitably, I'd can a hundred quarts of tomatoes and give tomatoes away and have blisters in my mouth from eating so many of them all summer!  I try to use the long growing season to my advantage by growing as many crops as possible in early spring, fall, and even over winter.  Also, I planted a lot of hot-dry loving plants like eggplants, tomatoes, and okra.  The soaker hose idea worked just fine, and given that I didn't have any money, it was a good solution at the time.  Eventually, I'd like to install drip irrigation that is a little more sophisticated (ie. drips only at the intervals needed for the plant spacing) but that's further down the road.  Instead of growing jalepenos, which take more water, I'd grow  little tiny ornamental peppers (Numex Twilight and a variety my elderly neighbor gave me that we called "Fire Marys") that seemed to live off of air... and besides, it only took a few of those to really heat up a meal!  They also made a really good cranberry-hot pepper sauce I used to can and use for baked chicken.....
    My grandpa always used to be really good about keeping the weeds out of his tomatoes until about July when he'd suddenly let them go and let the weeds grow up all around them... all the neigbors' tomatoes would die off or burn up about the beginning of August, but Grandpa's would be going strong until the first freeze.  He said that the weeds might take up some of the tomatoes' water, but that the tomatoes' roots were deeper and that the weeds provided a light shade that protected the tomatoes... it sounds kind of silly, but it has always worked for me... although I always end up going in and pulling/cutting the weeds before they go to seed. 

We don't get rain for 4 months at least during the summer - Glenn measured the ground temperature on the roof & it got to 134 degrees - our nights stay around 75-80 for 3 months & there isn't any humidity in the air at all...   we'll have to increase our mulching, hopefully that will cut down on some of the watering.  We grow through the winter also - so basically have year round garden. 

Sassy,

My name is StinkerBell over there too!





I have no originality.....lol

So you're Stinkerbell CP,  Nethog's Bible study & Homesteading - gee, you are quite the conservationist!  ;D

Stink, I do the same thing...I couldn't remember who I was if I had to change names every time I switched forums (not that I have a lot of forums I visit anymore... too busy.)

Overall, it's a pretty good site. A LOT of the people have no idea what color the sky is though. I finally blew up at one and quit going there!

I forgot one other thing we do... we homeschool our kids and teach them to think for themselves instead of regurgitating whatever a public school teacher gives them.

Quote from: Homegrown Tomatoes on November 21, 2007, 06:10:05 PM
I forgot one other thing we do... we homeschool our kids and teach them to think for themselves instead of regurgitating whatever a public school teacher gives them.

I like not only what you are doing but your reason for doing it. [cool]

Self sufficiency becomes a little more of a problem when your home is in the suburbs and in the desert. Home has solar PV power augmenting the electrical demand though.

There would be the possibility of growing food in the backyard, but it's more difficult this being desert.

The mountains aren't suitable for growing much in the way of food; too short a growing season for a lot of stuff. There is an abundance of Elk and Deer though, and at last look an abundance of reloading supplies in the shop. Also Bear up there, though I've never ate one. Lots of turkey, too.

I do have skills and talents to trade with others though if things went really down the crapper.

:-\

And Don, I'm sure there are edible wild plants hanging around up there, too... something I've always loved learning about and would like to learn more... does it get wet enough in your mountains for things like morel mushrooms?  Yum.  I remember finding some in high school when we were out plant collecting and taking them back to the chemistry lab to saute them over the bunson burners!!

It gets rainy in August. All sorts of mushrooms pop up all over. See some here...
http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=1427.msg33769#msg33769
I love mushrooms but it seems it is too difficult to tell some of the safe ones from the nasty... I wonder if what squirrels eat is any indication? We watched squirrels having a feast on some.

I bought a couple books on mushrooms and just got a mailer from a mushroom company I inquired at a year or two ago.  I also haven't taken the time to learn which are the bad ones yet.  I read somewhere it seems that what the animals eat is not always an indicator of what we can eat.

Don, just having the knowledge of how to survive if the need be is a great part of self sufficiency.

Quote from: glenn kangiser on November 21, 2007, 11:52:12 PM
I read somewhere it seems that what the animals eat is not always an indicator of what we can eat.

I figured as much. I think I'd just shoot the squirrel if it came to being that hungry.

Quote from: glenn kangiser on November 21, 2007, 11:52:12 PM
...just having the knowledge of how to survive if the need be is a great part of self sufficiency.

Yep... I don't loose sleep worrying about what I'd do.

MD,

Maybe Hydroponics is the way to go for you?

That is a good idea, Stink.  Hydroponics is pretty easy to do.  I should set mine up again and do a tutorial as I do it.  Since we have a year round garden outside here I haven't done it yet, but I could have a wider winter variety if I did.

Quote from: StinkerBell on November 22, 2007, 11:44:32 AM
Maybe Hydroponics is the way to go for you?

Hydroponics!! I'd forgotten all about that process.

I had a small hydroponics setup in my apartment back in the 70's. I grew tomatoes and peppers.

A friend down the hall grew some special "herbs"  n* in one as well.

Unfortunately Don, It's nearly impossible to sustain yourself or your family by hunting alone.

our ancestors weren't primitives although it makes for good stories. They were very civilized and organized although they had to work with the technology at the time.

You have to raise something as a staple. Every part of the country will support something.

Trapping is a much more productive method of gathering food than hunting. I used to trap a lot. It gets more game and frees your time to do other work. Same with fishing. A few fish traps will get a lot of food.

I suspect the problems in this country will mirror the breakup of the Soviet Union. It's good to look at how the residents dealt with day to day life.

Also talk to the OLDER natives. They had to deal with the depression and are good for ideas on what your section of the country will grow.

Mountain areas are great for Turnips after you get the soil right. You may have to build raised beds but that's a labor of love. Turnips are nutritious, not very temperamental and  you can eat the green tops all summer and the roots after the first frost.

Don't start thinking that even a catastrophic breakup in this country means teh end of civilization. It may mean the end of HBO but you can continue to lead an enjoyable life....just different.

Quote from: peternap on November 22, 2007, 05:33:11 PM
Unfortunately Don, It's nearly impossible to sustain yourself or your family by hunting alone.

I have no trouble believing that, Peter. Way back... there were hunter / gatherers. That was a tough way to make a living. The standard of living they enjoyed increased when they settled, stopped moving and grew crops. Plus, my hunting experience testifies that it is hard work.

Quote from: peternap on November 22, 2007, 05:33:11 PM
Turnips

I'll have to look into that and other options for what would grow up there.

One thing I do have, that most don't, is a fairly comprehensive stock of emergency goods/foods/supplies. If the crap does hit the fan it gives some breathing room, time to sort things out. We use some of the supplies ourselves and replace them to keep things fresh. We cycle a lot through a local food bank and a homeless shelter kitchen with the same objective of maintaining freshness. It's also our main method of charitable contributions. We also have a home water storage system for emergency use.

The cabin in the mountains would be a retreat. I don't have my own water there yet; share a well with a neighbor. And there's a nearby year round spring, but that's on national forest property, but only a quarter mile over the fence.

peternap said:

QuoteI suspect the problems in this country will mirror the breakup of the Soviet Union. It's good to look at how the residents dealt with day to day life.

Interesting point there, Peter.  We helped set up the Soviet Union fighting Bin Laden and friends in Afghanistan.  The cost of a war we knew they couldn't win was so great it helped to destroy them. 

Now we are not only there, but in Iraq too, and wanting more. 

Yeah -- looks like history repeats itself - our people in office haven't learned anything from history so we are doomed to repeat it...  but maybe the New World Order folks directing the show want it that way.  They make money from all sides. ???

So meanwhile back at the ranch...  [idea]... it would be a good idea if we look out for ourselves.
:)

The stored goods, staples, dry goods, are a good safety net, Don.  I mentioned to Sassy the other day we need to get beans - lentils etc.  Freezing the dry beans etc, is supposed to kill the bug eggs that are always in them, whether we like to think about it or not. :barf

We have a year round spring at the bottom of the hill - 1/2 gpm min usually, besides being off grid. :)

Quote from: glenn kangiser on November 25, 2007, 11:06:43 PMFreezing the dry beans etc, is supposed to kill the bug eggs that are always in them, whether we like to think about it or not.

And remember you can use dry ice as well. Put some on the top of the grain, beans, etc in the pail. Leave the lid loose and the CO₂ will sublime and displace the oxygen, etc from the pail. The cold also helps. Then seal the container.

I read somewhere that on average we unintentionally consume a pound of insects/insect matter in a year.

???  Do insect fragments qualify as organic?

When we were having this house built I had several quirky things implemented. One was splitting the electrical wiring up so I could later easily use a generator for back up power on some selected circuits. That came in handy also when adding the grid tie solar.

Another odd thing was I had the plumbers make allowance for some water storage tanks. I had found some stainless steel tanks at a fixtures sale when a small dairy closed. Two tanks of 100 gallons each. The house water goes though one tank, then the other before being distributed through the regular piping. I've got a timer actuated sprinkler valve on each to bleed off and drain whatever crap might collect.

Peter, you mentioned getting the soil right for turnips. What do you mean, what should I look for?

Quote from: MountainDon on November 25, 2007, 11:25:17 PM

Quote from: glenn kangiser on November 25, 2007, 11:06:43 PMFreezing the dry beans etc, is supposed to kill the bug eggs that are always in them, whether we like to think about it or not.

And remember you can use dry ice as well. Put some on the top of the grain, beans, etc in the pail. Leave the lid loose and the CO₂ will sublime and displace the oxygen, etc from the pail. The cold also helps. Then seal the container.

I read somewhere that on average we unintentionally consume a pound of insects/insect matter in a year.

???  Do insect fragments qualify as organic?

We live near - and our other place is in the San Joaquin Valley.  It supplies food for much of the US and the world.  The giant commercial farmers don't have time or manpower to make sure that what we eat is bug/rodent/reptile free.  Instead they just have standards put out by our public servant, The USDA/FDA, and sometimes they may even monitor it.... occasionally. :o

Things like ketchup - soup - sauce -- doesn't matter -- it's all ground up and cooked together.  Wine -- rats, mice,

snakes -- everything, goes into the crusher, then is cleaned out during the filtering processes etc.  Ahh yes-- 1997 was a very good year. :)  [mouseno]

Quotefrom Yahoo answers,
Insect legs in food?
i've heard that there are insect legs in certain foods, such as cereal and chocolate bars. what other disgusting things are in what other foods?

   
Mr. Why

Best Answer - Chosen by Asker
You have heard correctly. What's more, did you know that most people in the US who are "allergic to chocolate" actually are not allergic to chocolate, but rather to cockroaches? Cockroach allergy is extremely common and, since there are cockroaches (and legs and excrement) in the cocoa beans used to make chocolate, people have allergic reactions to it. People who are "allergic to chocolate" usually have no problem with Swiss, German or Dutch chocolate where the regulations are stricter.

That's why it's better to grow your own foods as other standards are similar.  [mouse]

http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/dalbook.html

[deadhorse] Dead horse,  No -- hopefully you won't find one of those in there. :)

QuotePeople who are "allergic to chocolate" usually have no problem with Swiss, German or Dutch chocolate where the regulations are stricter.

I take issue with that statement.

It is true that the US FDA has set limits on what is referred to as insect filth. However, the EU has no standards at all regarding insect parts. The EU exempts insect parts from their regulation, insect parts being considered natural. The US rule simply recognizes that total eradication of "insect filth" is not practical. People have eaten insects along with their food since caveman days. The only difference is that today we actually ingest less of them, unless we dine on them on purpose. To reduce the amount of allowable insect parts below the present US FDA standards would likely do more harm than good. Pesticide use would be increased because the best way to prevent insect parts is to prevent insects.

Food regulations in other countries are usually less stringent in the listing of trace ingredients, such as soy lecithin, milk, corn syrup, gluten, nuts, flavorings and dyes. Most "chocolate allergies" actually stem from these ingredients rather than the actual cocoa content.

Cockroach allergies do exist, no argument there. However, IIRC, they are mostly airborne allergens, not ingested. I could be wrong on this, but I am quite certain about the food contamination standards of the USA vs. EU

I'm feeling wordy again c*

Don, you asked about soil for Turnips. Loose friable soil so the roots can grow, Moist but well drained so they don't rot. They tolerate a wide PH but 6ish is best.

Keep the fertilizer light. You want roots and tops to grow equally. Compost with some wood ashes works well and improves the soil. For insect control, have one of your smoking buddies throw all their butts in a bucket with a quart or so of water. Let the sun make a nicotine tea. Spray pests directly with it and wash the tops well before eating. Don't worry, the nicotine is biodegradable.

Grubbs and bugs aren't bad if your hungry enough. I grew up stuck between two worlds. The old and the new. I was born in severe country and later as the son of a well to do lawyer, was educated and got to rub elbows with fancy people n*. While my father lost his roots, I never did. I suppose that's why I started building muzzleloaders and forging my own knives and hatchets.

Anyway...I'd go into the mountains for weeks at a time and just enjoy trout fishing, hunting or just wandering. I never got lost because a mountain only has three directions. UP and sideways were for having fun. Down took you home.

In the summer, I ate a lot of Grubbs (and trout)

Winter was my favorite though. There is no feeling like being high up in a heavy snow. The Grouse would huddle under spruce trees so they were easy pickins.

I suppose people have problems with what they eat because they aren't used to it. MY kids claim I can eat anything and it's close to the truth. Every part of your body, including your digestive and immune system, needs to be excerised or it gets weak.

I never hear Mexicans telling each other NOT to drink the water.

Here is something that is easy to do and can increase your self sufficiency. 

Build a hoop house.  Pretty cheap and real simple.  It can extend your growing season.

Suzy and I started on it tonight after Sassy went to work.

(https://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d184/glennkangiser/P1000699.jpg)

The frame is made of PVC pipe stuck over steel stakes driven in the ground.

(https://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d184/glennkangiser/P1000696.jpg)

I'm making this one as we have quite a few peppers and tomatoes still blooming and producing. 

(https://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d184/glennkangiser/P1000697.jpg)

The 20 foot sections of PVC (I used 1" and 3/4" as the lumber yard was low on 1") will need to be cut off about 1 fot or a bit more to allow the 20 foot wide plastic to have soil put over the edges and seal it.  This will make a 12' wide by about 6 foot tall hoop house.  I am taking advantage of the hill behind the tomatoes for a bit of added height.

(https://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d184/glennkangiser/P1000698.jpg)

What could be better than a nice rest in Sassy's chair after a hard days work?hmm

(https://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d184/glennkangiser/P1000700.jpg)

Suzy is one of 3 survivors after puppy shots killed 2 of her brothers, so she is getting a bit spoiled.  All 5 pups nearly died of the shots - the 2 did.

The hoop house is covered now - Tomatoes seem to be ripening a bit faster.  Guess I better get covers on the rest also -- near frost coming up in about a week or less.

(https://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d184/glennkangiser/P1000703-1.jpg)

Let's hope you don't bake those tomatoes before their time.

I tried a similar thing once and had a problem with the pvc piping wanting to slump over when it got warm to hot. It took some more wire bracing to hold things in shape.


Really, I'm jealous.  ::)

I have checked it over in the day and it didn't seem excessively hot with the low sun angle.

I cut clips from 1 1/4" pvc, cutting about a 3/4 inch strip out of the side first then cutting them off about 1 1/2 inches long.  These snap over the plastic holding it to the 1" hoop house frame bows.

I am wondering about snow load -- maybe John can do some calcs for me.  I was thinking I could build an internal frame of 2x4s under the center.  Sides are weighted with rocks for now.  The original article I read did mention fixing the sides so they could be lifted up for day time ventilation.  I'm hoping to store heat in the ground -- and maybe used 5 gallon black (was driveway sealer) buckets full of water.

I'm writing this for anyone who thanks that Self Sufficiency is a lot of hot air and why everyone need to be Prepared it may not be an attack,storm or our government it could be as sample as a vist to the doctor or pulling up some bushes let me tell you about 2007 for the Flowers family.


2007 started off good i had been working two job and we had cut our debt down and could see the light at the in tunnel then life kicks you in the @#@#@.Cindy's mom had to have outpatient surgery was in hospital 3 days.
Cindy went in hospital found out why she hade been hurting it's  Colon Cancer an 1 1/2 surgery that lasted 6 hours in hospital  for 9 days cindy come home  her father goes in the hospital one of his heart stints is blocked in hospital 4 days
Cindy starts 27 days of radiation 6months of chemo  during this for the first time in 6 years i get sick go to doctor bad case of flu and ear infection that speads to my wisdom tooth and after 42years  i become allergic to penicillin d*
Cindy's dad goes back in the hospital 3 more times and to to it off on November 27 i hade back surgery to cut a bone and shave a disc i'm out of work til January.

Glenn asked

QuoteWhat are we doing?

Right now a lot of planing,i told cindy on january 1st our lives are going to change we are going to eat a lot better than we do now no more junk food i'm going to put down the mt.dew, we will put in a garden this year and get a 1/2dozen chickens we have 3.36 acres of land and do nothing with it NO MORE after the year we had we can not go on living like we have been.

Life can change in an instant you need to be Prepared.
Robert

Robert, you're right... life can change in an instant, and it does pay to be prepared.  When my husband was finishing up his degree, he was also working half time outside of his work for school.  Right after our second child was born, his company went through rough times and laid off everyone but the management.  Thankfully, even though our income dropped drastically, we managed to live several months with him only working 20 hours a week and me staying home with the kids with very little (if any) disruption in the way we lived.... We had our chickens, we had a big garden, and I just quit driving anywhere unless it was absolutely necessary...Thankfully we did alright, but if we hadn't had the garden and the chickens and hadn't been pretty much debt free, we would have been in serious hurt. 

I really hope to hear good reports on Cindy's health.  My mom is also a colon cancer survivor... it's been about 5 years now that she's been cancer free.  Changing the way you eat and live can really make a difference in that arena, too.

Sounds like the crap hit your family all at once, Robert.  I hope things straighten up for you and it sounds like your future plan is a good one.  No time like the present to get started on an improved lifestyle, eh? hmm

Homegrown Tomatoes 

QuoteRobert, you're right...

Thanks i don't hear that a lot  ;)
We are done with the radiation and chemo her last pet scan showed no cancer thank god, shes doing good.
I guess i should have said that we are  middle age i'm 42, and she just turned 47 in october doctors say she is too young to have colon cancer.
up until this year we were in good health that is why i told everyone this. Trouble come out of a clear blue sky. i waited too long to get prepared but i have a chance to make up for lost time. 
Robert

Quote from: Robert_Flowers on December 05, 2007, 02:41:23 PM
Trouble come out of a clear blue sky.

That's the way lots of medical trouble arrives.  :(

Sadly we often have habits, do things that aggravate problems. I certainly have done so and have tried to reinvent myself.  ::)

I too truly hope all goes well for you, your wife and family.

First off...Y2K scenario is as simple as a blown up bridge or road....food comes to ONE store in town, via highways....24 hours later all basic staples would be gone...the shelves here empty on deer season weekend :)

So...96% of people don't know HOW to make bread....what's in bread or have a plan to get ingredients...when I get to the homestead I will have chickens and a goat...took me a couple of years tio get the wife around to that idea.

The house should be efficient and sufficient :)  I plan top heat with wood.  Solar is iffy and thermal is something you can't really do without heavy equipment and backup supplies....K.I.S.S....100 years ago what did THEY do.  Study the Amish....get prepared, save OP seeds, learn to can over a fire, collect maple syrup maybe even honey.

During the depression who did not go hungry.....probably the rich but...lol my point is it was trappers, that's right...they ate beaver, muskrat and knew how to prepare it.  We might have people turn up their noses at that...today that is...a week....a month....90 days without meals...the pantry is empty...what then??

We do have examples of Indigenous people, hunters, gatherers, farmers...that blend is what a self sufficient person would do.


I'm middle of the ground....6 acres, animals to trap or hunt nearby, garden started and shelter somewhat started....if bad things happen fast, we move into the garage.  Otherwise we hope we finish the house in time...ICF/concrete walls...bermed, walkout.  Not big, not extravagant...but nice  :D


Store up items that you can use when the electricity goes off....tools, grinder, spare parts, .22 shells....guns.  A week outside will let you know what you need  ;D

I visit the Homesteading sites, GardenWeb and Frugal's

http://www.frugalsquirrels.com/vb/index.php (http://www.frugalsquirrels.com/vb/index.php)

Good info out there.  Be glad to discuss anything in any way to help.

Earl/MI

Quote from: Robert_Flowers on December 05, 2007, 02:41:23 PM
Homegrown Tomatoes 

QuoteRobert, you're right...

Thanks i don't hear that a lot  ;)
We are done with the radiation and chemo her last pet scan showed no cancer thank god, shes doing good.
I guess i should have said that we are  middle age i'm 42, and she just turned 47 in october doctors say she is too young to have colon cancer.
up until this year we were in good health that is why i told everyone this. Trouble come out of a clear blue sky. i waited too long to get prepared but i have a chance to make up for lost time. 
Robert

I don't think there is such a thing as being too young for cancer... that's about the age my mom was when she had it... she might've been 50?  But even then, they told her that it had probably been growing there for 10 years or more. 

As far as other places to learn good homesteading/roughing it basics, I think backwoods home magazine's online articles are really helpful, particularly if you're considering  raising some kind of livestock you've never raised before, or when it comes to gardening and such.  For me, climate is also really important.  Living in Wisconsin, I've faced drastic changes in the way we garden and the amount we can produce.  In Oklahoma, it was pretty much unlimited... even without much land, we produced everything we ate in terms of fruit and veggies, as well as chickens and free-range eggs.  I found ways to can, dry, or otherwise preserve it for the three months a year that we didn't grow much other than salad greens and cold season veggies.  We were more than $15K below the state's so-called "poverty line" yet we were completely well-fed and blessed.  We never lacked any good thing.  Here in WI, about January, I start going crazy from the lack of the color green.... I start planting beans in pots around the house just for the color, and spinach in window boxes.  Because of the limited sunlight in our yard, my canning to date after 2.5 years here consists of a few pints of green beans and a quart of salsa.  Pretty pathetic for someone who used to can over 100 qts. of tomatoes every summer.   ::)  For me, part of my self-sufficiency plan is escaping the frozen north!!! :)  Did I mention it is snowing AGAIN????

Seems part of your plan is going South when possible.  That counts too.:)

Absolutely!!!!  My husband likens it to his experience coming to the US... he says that when he was growing up in Korea, he didn't mind the crowds, the little things about the culture that now drive him nuts, and the bitterly cold winters, but that was primarily because he didn't know it could be any different.  After spending several years acclimating himself to the wild weather in Oklahoma and the hot hot summers, and THEN moving north, he can't stand the cold winters because he knows it CAN be different!  He thinks that is the reason that people up here can tolerate the cold and the clouds... they just accept it because, as he says, "they just don't know any better!"  Ha ha ha.  I can't even describe the desperation I feel to move south... driving up to the city to pick my husband up from work the other day, I was looking out at all the bleak, flat, snow-covered fields between here and there and couldn't help but ask God, "WHY ARE WE STILL UP HERE????" We've almost reached the point where we load up a U-haul whether we have a place to move TO or not and just go anyway!  Have a fellow Okie friend who did the same thing when he was younger... he'd moved to Detroit and didn't even last two years.  About halfway through his second winter there, he came home from work one day and announced to his wife that he couldn't take it anymore, and he called and ordered a U-haul and called his boss and gave him notice.  He didn't have another job to go to or anything, but he just couldn't handle the climate... they moved back home and he found work a few months later, and then eventually ended up buying out that company and going into business for himself.  He's in his 70s now and still consults for several local companies and universities and still raises his cattle southwest of Oklahoma City. 

  Here, I can hardly stand to be outdoors for half an hour in the winter.  When my oldest was a newborn in OK, I remember when she was about a week old and barely weighed 6 lbs., I couldn't handle the cabin fever anymore, and so in early January I bundled her up and put her in a front carrier and walked to the post office and the feed store and the general store to show her off.  I wouldn't dare do that with a newborn in January here... gotta find a way back south before I give birth to a little cheesehead, ha ha. ;D

My mom was from Wisconsin.  Glad I wasn't born there.  I don't think I could take her calling me a little cheesehead.

She'd have probably nicknamed me Little Limburger or something. hmm

My neighbour Ken and i was talking last week about food he said that if he got an extra deer he would give it to me and charge me $40.00 to dress it out. [cool] Ken and another friend Rusty  do not buy any meat they both hunt deer,turkey,and wild hogs Rusty's wife Lisa also hunt they fill 2 large freezers every year.
Last night went with cindy to wal-fart to get some food,if i don't start raising of meat or start hunting we will become vegetarians by default,she was complaining  about the prices it was cheaper to buy a roast than stewmeat at $4.69 apound >: for the stew meat ( 21/2 dozen eggs $4.29 milk $4.17 a gallon. I wonder if you could feed a small cow on $10.00 a week thats what we spend on milk now ???
I had an idea get 25 broilers and let ken butcher them for me, give him 1/3 or 1/2 of the birds, he has the butchering skills i don't, not pure Self Sufficiency but close.

Robert

Robert, anyone can butcher a chicken... it's not that complicated.  Even my husband, city boy that he is, can handle it... we usually set it up assembly line style.  He kills them and I scald and pluck them, and finish up the process.  It is more efficient if you have a freezer to do several at a time... as much as I hate butchering, I really like the meat. :)  Tastes totally different than what passes for chicken in the supermarket.  In the mean time, you should look around your area to see if there is a butcher shop that you can buy 1/2 or 1/4 of a cow at once for the freezer.  I looked into it here locally a while back and figured out that you could get beef for about $1.88 a lb. if you bought half... and you get a variety of different cuts in the process.  Of course, you can't have it all in steaks, but you can get a good variety that way, and a heck of a lot cheaper than the grocery store or Wal-mart, if you have the space for it in the freezer.  The local butcher shop here also throws in a bonus of some chickens, sausage and bacon if you buy a half.  You can't go to the ones in the stores, but like a little country meat processor. 
For milk, goats are easier to maintain and don't produce so much milk you have to bathe in it... their milk is rich and good.  Unfortunately, I've never been able to get my husband to drink it... he doesn't like goat's milk.   :-\  With chickens, I always ordered straight run (pullets and cocks) and then we ate the extra roosters, hens that didn't lay, and any of them that started getting mean and pecking on the others. Of course, they don't grow as fast as those who are bred specifically as broilers... but they also don't require as much care.  If you order a breed like Buff Orpingtons, you'll have good mama hens who'll sit on a nest and hatch out your next group of chicken and egg dinners, and they forage for food really well... takes care of much of the insect problems in the garden.  They're also nice big chickens that will feed a hungry family when it's time to butcher.  I don't know what part of the country you're in, but I like Cackle Hatchery in Lebanon, MO as far as hatchery chicks are concerned... they provide good information on most of the breeds they sell, and they have a really wide variety to choose from, so if you're in the mid-section of the country and don't mind mail-ordering your chicks, they're a good choice, and you can order online. 

Robert, hope your wife is doing well - sounds a little like my family, my brother had radical neck surgery to remove a cancerous tumor, chemo & radiation; my dad has esophageal cancer & his wife went through 35 radiation treatments & is on chemo now for re-occurance of breast cancer - this all happened in the past year...

When I lived in Ohio, we had a 5 acre farm - pretty much grew all our own veggies.  Also had a great strawberry patch.  In fact, one year the local town was having a strawberry festival & bought all the strawberries from us - we had such good ones.   [cool]  My mom froze most of the produce.

We also had at least 100 chickens - the big white ones.  When I was old enough to collect eggs, I was the one to do it as my mom was afraid of the chickens - they'd always peck her...  I'd carry those chickens around like a cat, swing with them, they'd pretty much let me do anything with them  [cool]

Still remember butchering time - my dad had a stump he'd lay the chicken on, chop off its head & the chicken would run around in circles for awhile - guess that fascinated me so much that it didn't bother me that he was killing my pets  ??? My job was to dip them in the hot water & pluck them.  Don't remember my older brother helping out - he probably did, though. 

While gardening, there was lots of rocks - my dad made rock walls all around the property.  Wish I had pix of it now.  Also remember getting lost in the corn patch  :(  Great memories, though  :)

just a quick note on the butchering... the only thing that you have to really be careful about is when you remove the vent.  Other than that, butchering chickens is fairly easy.  And after the first one, you could practically do it in your sleep.  My kids are only 3 and 4, and thankfully they understand already that butchering is the price you have to pay to eat meat... a few days ago when we'd gone out for dinner, my oldest announced the next morning as she was scarfing down her leftover steak, "That is one of the best cows I've ever eaten... I sure appreciate her." :)

Just ran across an very interesting site - there's a video that has some great ideas if you scroll down the article a little bit... 

http://www.ecospace.cc/design/earthship-house-tires-0108.htm

There's lots of great articles on this site - another one titled "Pedal Power" for carrying & filtering water while you are pedaling your bike looks very promising...  there's also a video  http://www.ecospace.cc/water/water-filtering-bike-0108.htm

Been doing that for close to 20 years now. Of course we have electricity but since it is there we will use it. I have 2 sources of electrical back up that I figure I can still have some for around a year plus if needed real bad. I can also figure a way to get it later if needed. We have a baking buisness so normaly we have 1.200 lbs of assored organic grains, nuts, molases, oils, flour ect to live off of that is allways being refreshed. We have our lake, 28 GPM well, 6,000 gals of stored water under ground, several pumps and lots of fuel on site. Normaly we have enought food to last over a year with out having to buy things excep cigs and coffie. Meat is not a problem we have over 35,000 lbs of it on the hoof all year. Milk can be got from the goats, eggs from the chickens and fresh veggies from the garden which we freeze. I have a lot of assorted bullets to hunt with and on one shot kills I could live a lifetime off them and probley another one after that. I have generators to run power tools off of, wood heat and cut up firewood cords for 2 years and lots of wood to use later. I do know how to fix things and have some heavy equipment to plow with, move snow or block roads if needed. Wife knows how to cook from scratch and allways has, daughter knows how to skin, tan, raise, butcher about any animal we could eat or use. I can plumb, wire, build and do mechanical stuff and have the tools to do so. So it is a every day way of living for us and if the world goes to crap we will be OK and will just make a few changes but still live confertably. One other thing is we are luckey and require no medications, drugs or alcohal to live with. Ciggs are a problem for me but I have allmost kicked that habit! Mark

That's what I like to see, Mark.  I'm about the same way.  No Establishment, no problem...except the cigs.  I don't use them.  I want my lungs to be pink when they fry me.

(OK, so I ripped off the McKinsey Brothers for that one).

Quote from: glenn kangiser on January 24, 2008, 07:40:52 PM
That's what I like to see, Mark.  I'm about the same way.  No Establishment, no problem...except the cigs.  I don't use them.  I want my lungs to be pink when they fry me.

(OK, so I ripped off the McKinsey for that one).

I have allways figured there would be some short term warning this was going to happen and then I would stock up on extra fuel, coffie, tolet paper, soap, ect. Storing all this stuff year long is sorta hard to do. I figure between 5 motorised vehicals I will allway have 40-50 gals min of fresh fuel in them at all times and the Water Tender holds 100 gals of diesel and 30 gals of treated gasoline at all times. I have 4 - 1000 amp 12 volt battrys charged at all times. My main 30KW generator has 60 treated gals in it plus I have a lot of cans of gas for the tractor. I have a small 6KW generator that conserves fuel that I can run the well off of to fill tanks of water for drinking. I have a portabler plastic 250 gal potable water tank to store it in. Using the generator right I can have all the water I need plus keep reffers cold in the summer with very little fuel use per day. I can allways trade meat for more fuel, ect and living cows/livestock don't rot! Mark

What type batteries, Mark?

Quote from: glenn kangiser on January 24, 2008, 08:46:52 PM
What type batteries, Mark?

3 of them are regular heavy duty semi truck battrys and 1 is a heavy duty deep cycle all on my Water Tender and less than a year old. As far as back up I have converters that I can hook to them for 120 volt use. Add those to 4 more battrys in the vehicals I am good for a while with out a generator if I wanted. As another note I have 3-2 way Bendix King 148-172 Mzh 2 way programable radios that are on the fire/rescue emergency freqs. I even have my own fresh air pack and escape hoods with 30 min supply air. Never know when you need to go into a burning building on your place. I guess I am coverd for a lot of things to go wrong but still deal with it myself.  I have a lot of toys on my Water Tender that you normaly would not have at home. Mark

Sounds good.  We have all of our solar and wind power - off grid, and in emergency, we have a year round spring at the bottom of the hill that puts out a minimum of 1/2 gpm potable water year round.  Our garden has pretty well enough to keep us alive year round and we have large rodents (deer) always nearby.

Quote from: glenn kangiser on January 24, 2008, 10:18:00 PM
Sounds good.  We have all of our solar and wind power - off grid, and in emergency, we have a year round spring at the bottom of the hill that puts out a minimum of 1/2 gpm potable water year round.  Our garden has pretty well enough to keep us alive year round and we have large rodents (deer) always nearby.

My neibor is off the grid and has a nice solar power panels and wind generation set up. I would like to pick up a wind generator some day because it allways blows here. I have to be on the grid for Carols Baking Ovens. She has 3- 10 KW Convection ones to run. They would take some big panels to get 30KW @ 240 volts! I am thinking of setting up a battry emergency unit for the house to run a few lights and the TV with. I allready have UPS on the Computer. Mark

Of the commercially available ones, I think the Bergey's are the best.  I have the XL1

http://www.bergey.com/

Or you can build your own.

Quote from: glenn kangiser on January 24, 2008, 10:30:22 PM
Of the commercially available ones, I think the Bergey's are the best.  I have the XL1

http://www.bergey.com/

Or you can build your own.

The price is not to bad for the head I wonder how long there good for with out problems? The neibors has been running non stop for 12 years that I know of. I can hear it at night and it is over 2500 ft away on a hill above me not in view. It makes a WOOP WOOP sound but does not bother me. At first it was a strange sound but now blanked out. I think it is louder under loads cause I don't hear it all the time in the wind?  Mark

It is generally louder in low wind speeds or turbulent winds.  It needs to be 85 to 100 feet up for best performance and as a minimum always at least 30 feet over treetops or nearby obstacles.  Generally a pleasant sound that doesn't bother.

As the wind gets higher it generally covers the sound of the generator,  Hooking to a building amplifies the sound and sends it through the building.  If I recall correctly it has a 5 year guarantee and service is at 10 years, although I probably won't take mine down until it has a problem.  Bearings are sealed.

Several small units are better than one big unit and noise is not much greater.  Cost per watt should work out similar.  Bergey has one of the better reputations.  I am a dealer but only sold my own to me. I should push them a bit but we are in a marginal wind area so I won't promise miracles to sell them.