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9/11 Truthers are Nuts!

Or are they?

Let's take a look:

MILITARY LEADERS

Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense under President Ronald Reagan (Col. Ronald D. Ray) said that the official story of 9/11 is "the dog that doesn't hunt" (bio)

Director of the U.S. "Star Wars" space defense program in both Republican and Democratic administrations, who was a senior air force colonel who flew 101 combat missions (Col. Robert Bowman) stated that 9/11 was an inside job. He also said:

   "If our government had merely [done] nothing, and I say that as an old interceptor pilot—I know the drill, I know what it takes, I know how long it takes, I know what the procedures are, I know what they were, and I know what they've changed them to—if our government had merely done nothing, and allowed normal procedures to happen on that morning of 9/11, the Twin Towers would still be standing and thousands of dead Americans would still be alive. [T]hat is treason!"  read on at link below

http://georgewashington.blogspot.com/2006/11/overwhelming-majority-of-credible.html

They speak up.

http://www.henrymakow.com/filmmaker_was_at_pentagon_on_9.html  Read the comments at the end also.

Being suppressed and blackballed in the US - you can acquire it here.  I did and will support those who will speak up.

http://www.severevisibility.com/

Quote from: glenn kangiser on March 28, 2009, 08:00:54 AM
They speak up.

http://www.henrymakow.com/filmmaker_was_at_pentagon_on_9.html  Read the comments at the end also.

Being suppressed and blackballed in the US - you can acquire it here.  I did and will support those who will speak up.

http://www.severevisibility.com/

Glenn, I usually take a close at what you post because there's always a good bit of truth in it....This is BS though. The filmmaker is yanking everyone's chain. I had employees in the building when it was hit and it was hit.

It also took me the rest of the day to get them out. The locked the whole place down.

I have not seen this film

but

one has to ask

why is this film is being black balled in the US but not in Europe ?


IMO the official conspiracy theory of 911 is a fabrication

We may never know the truth

but the 'official conspiracy theory' as proposed by the 911 Commision is full of holes and non facts

Bob Bowman is and honorable and excellent pilot

he is a core member at this website

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/


I am member No. 147 there

Quote from: peternap on March 28, 2009, 06:12:21 PM
...This is BS though.

(http://countryplans.com/smf/Themes/John-1/images/post/thumbup.gif)  (http://countryplans.com/smf/Themes/John-1/images/post/thumbup.gif)
(http://countryplans.com/smf/Themes/John-1/images/post/thumbup.gif)

No question that it was hit.... by something........ hmm

There is one other possibility also.

There are some infiltrating the 9/11 truth movements to take away credibility from the quest for facts about the unanswered questions.  I will check it out and give it a skeptical look - as well as checking out the evidence he will supposedly provide.  I only saw the trailer and was half asleep when I did that.

"I witnessed the jet hit the Pentagon on September 11. From my office on the 19th floor of the USA TODAY building in Arlington, Va., I have a view of Arlington Cemetery, Crystal City, the Pentagon, National Airport and the Potomac River. ... Shortly after watching the second tragedy, I heard jet engines pass our building, which, being so close to the airport is very common. But I thought the airport was closed. I figured it was a plane coming in for landing. A few moments later, as I was looking down at my desk, the plane caught my eye. It didn't register at first. I thought to myself that I couldn't believe the pilot was flying so low. Then it dawned on me what was about to happen. I watched in horror as the plane flew at treetop level, banked slightly to the left, drug it's wing along the ground and slammed into the west wall of the Pentagon exploding into a giant orange fireball. Then black smoke. Then white smoke."
- Steve Anderson, Director of Communications, USA Today

from...

http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/blflight77w.htm (http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/blflight77w.htm)

I am always bemused by people who usually are anxious to describe how incompetent, lazy, unorganized and simply stupid the government is but when something like 9/11 occurs are equally sure that same incompetent government somehow manages to organize some vast conspiracy, pull it off and then maintain secrecy among the hundreds or thousands of incompetent government employees required to accomplish the plan or deeds. The same employees who cannot keep anything secret from the media cockroaches the rest of the time.

Give me a break!!   

Personally I do not find our government incompetent, lazy, unorganized and simply stupid. Rather, I believe the people who staff our government to be well educated, thoughtful and well meaning in their attempts at performing their jobs to the best of their abilities. It's the elected officials who tend to fill the aforementioned description. Unfortunately our government employees are directed by those same elected officials and that's where problems arise.

Two planes did hit the WTC, who flew them is the question. I have difficulty believing two men who were such poor pilots that they could not barely fly level in training flights yet could, under extreme stress, hijack these planes, disengage the autopilot and transponders even though they had no training on performing these actions, and then fly the planes into buildings at full throttle while fully believing Air Force fighters were being scrambled to intercept them as per government policy. None of them even trained for flying commercial jets, and one was not allowed to solo because his flight skills were so poor, yet he flew his plane into the Pentagon after performing flight maneuvers exceeding the ability of the aircraft.

There are too many questions and inconsistencies, and we'll never know the truth.

Quote
Two planes did hit the WTC, who flew them is the question.

What about the Pentagon and flight 93? But that's another theory.

QuoteI have difficulty believing two men who were such poor pilots that they could not barely fly level in training flights yet could, under extreme stress...

First I'd like to say that what you or I might interpret as being under great stress, was more likely a source of great euphoric joy for them. Being on the last legs of their journey to martyrdom more than likely gave them strengths they did not exhibit when in flight school.

Second, flying an airplane under good weather conditions is not as difficult as one might think. One of the reasons given for refusing to rent a Cessna to Hani Hanjour was that he had great problems with landing the plane. Landing is a necessity if you are the owner of the plane that someone wants to rent from you. Crashing into a building does not require the same skills as landing the aircraft smoothly and safely. If you divide flying into three parts, take off, flight from A to B and landing, landing in the most difficult part and flying from point to point is the easiest. Crashing just requires pointing the plane at a particular spot. During WW2, thousands of Kamikaze pilots received just enough training to fly short distances and crash their aircraft into US naval ships.

I do not have a pilot license, but I have flown a small plane (Beech Bonanza), making turns, ascents and descents, all with a pilot friend ready to take over if the need arose. (I have also brought the same plane in on the approach and landed it; again with my friend at the ready, but the need to land safely is not a requisite for crashing a plane.)

A big plane can be easier to fly than a small one as they are not bumped around by air currents as readily. Pilots work their way from small to big for many reasons, some of them economic. It's cheaper to replace a dinged small aircraft than a big one.

Commercial pilots spend most of their training learning how to deal with extremes of weather and systems failures, as well as how to land a plane smoothly and safely. None of that was of concern to the hijacker pilots.

An expert has been quoted as saying, in reference to the maneuvers that Hanjour made on his approach to the Pentagon, "You don't fly a 757 in that manner. It's unsafe." Alright, it may have been unsafe to fly the 757 that way, but how does the question of safety enter into it when the goal of the pilot is to crash the plane? The thing is, the plane survived the maneuvers, even if they were not listed as approved by Boeing or the FAA.

Maybe the pilots were lucky? Maybe Allah was with them that day? Or at least they believed he was and that belief gave the hijackers what they needed to carry out three of the four plans.

Anyhow, those are my thoughts on the matter.


And contrary to dis-information put forth by some videos and blogs, the hijackers were listed on the flight manifests. Commercial planes just don't take off if the head count does not match the manifest total. That goes for PRE-9/11 as well as post 9/11.

Please check out this site  http://patriotsquestion911.com/  with an open mind - you will recognize many of the people who have come out for 911 truth - they are generals, former CIA, doctors, pilots, engineers, architects... credible people questioning the "official" story.  They are not suspending their reasoning abilities by asking real questions that require true answers - they are in fact, refusing to hide their heads in the sand & are willing to ask the hard questions that have yet to be answered & are willing to be called "conspiracy theorists" rather than accept explanations that really stretch the limits of imagination. 

170+ Senior Military, Intelligence Service, Law Enforcement, and Government Officials
   660+ Engineers and Architects
   170+ Pilots and Aviation Professionals
   350+ Professors Question 9/11
   230+ 9/11 Survivors and Family Members
   200+ Artists, Entertainers, and Media Professionals

You can compare it to the faux "global warming" crowd - 10's of thousands of scientists have come out against the official theory, yet those who dispute the global warming theory are blackballed & don't get all the gov't freebies.  Oh, BTW, it's not "global warming" anymore, it's "climate change."

All valid points, Don, to be sure.

I was not at the Pentagon, nor was I in the field in PA, so I have no direct experience to relate. I remember seeing interviews with air traffic controllers at Reagan International saying what they saw on the radar screens was either a small jet or missile.

Questions; Why within one hour of the Pentagon being struck did the FBI go to area businesses and confiscate their security tapes that contained footage of the attack? Why weren't these tapes released if they would have corroborated the government's story? Why were employees of these businesses forced into silence with threats of government prosecution and jail time? I also saw interviews with people in PA. who said they saw what looked like a missile and also heard an explosion before the plane crashed. Like I said, I wasn't there and I don't know how credible any of the witnesses are, whether corroborating or contradicting the governments assertions.

Nobody will know what the hijackers were thinking as they flew into their glorious martyrdoms. Maybe it was "Damn, that stripper last night was hot!"

Kamikaze aircraft were little more than flying bombs so the controls were simple and designed to be understood easily by someone with minimal training, sort of like "cooking" at MacDonald's, unlike modern commercial aircraft which have extremely complex instrument panels. A former neighbor of mine was a Navy pilot and retired commercial pilot. He says controls for shutting off the autopilot and transponder are difficult to find and require multiple steps, unlike what Hollywood shows, so that these devices aren't accidently shut down.

Although a large commercial plane may respond more easily due to its design and size making it seem easier to control, flying a Cessna does not make one a commercial pilot, or a Kamikaze pilot for that matter. Commercial aircraft are far more complex than a Cessna.

I know they were listed on the manifests using their own names, and they even entered America using their real names. I worked with a banker who sat next to Atta on the flight from Portland, Maine to Boston, Mass. The banker got on the plane bound for New York City and was seriously freaked out when he found out who Atta was and they showed his picture. He said nothing in Atta's behavior would lead anybody to believe he was going to do what he did, so perhaps you're correct about the stress issue.

There are simply too many inconsistencies in the government report and that's where my difficulty in fully believing it stems from. I don't know everything that happened that day, and I know I never will. The problem is many people like me who doubt the government story get lumped together with the "Particle beams shot from invisible flying craft reverse engineered from captured alien spacecraft were used to bring down the WTC" crowd.

There is so much misinformation coming from both sides that it's going to rate right up there with the Kennedy Assassination and the Moon Landing for the conspiracy crowd.

Quote from: pagancelt on March 30, 2009, 12:27:26 PM
Although a large commercial plane may respond more easily due to its design and size making it seem easier to control, flying a Cessna does not make one a commercial pilot, or a Kamikaze pilot for that matter. Commercial aircraft are far more complex than a Cessna.

My point there is that once the aircraft is in the air, and not being constrained by concerns for safety and the by-the-book- method of operating a large aircraft, I believe it is not too difficult a feat to point the aircraft at a target.

Just my opinion/belief.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1544113.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1544113.stm)

Regardless of who flew the planes they did hit. The problem is why there was no response by air defence forces. Someone stood down the military and no one has ever been put on trial for that criminal failure. So far as I know no one was even blamed. This smells.

Problem #2 is WTC 7 which was never hit by a plane but collapsed anyway.

Probem #3 is why did Bush stonewall on an investigation and try to prevent it? Why was all the eveidence destroyed?

Also it was too damned convenient for BushCo Inc. They wanted badly to attack Iraq even before this happened then rushed to war the second it they had the chance.

My dad flew at least 30 different types of planes from tail draggers to B52's, fighter jets, C130's.  He once had to land a B52 with all the engines shut off on one wing due to fires.  He had to take the plane off autopilot.  He said that the plane, with autopilot was a breeze to fly (that is if you knew what the instrumentation was & understood how to use it - much, much different than a Cessna - takes lots of training to learn - Cessnas & big jets are not interchangeable  ::) )  He said landing that B52 without autopilot was the hardest landing he had ever had to do - just guiding it into pattern without autopilot was next to impossible & he was an instructor pilot - in fact, he was the 1st pilot to ever land a B52 with all the engines out on one side.

So, you just can't compare apples with oranges just because you don't have to actually "land" a plane - just knowing how to disable controls & being able to perform the difficult maneuvers the pilot had to perform to fly the plane at super fast speed, only a few feet off the ground & aiming it to hit the side as it did - that was quite an unbelieveable feat...  but whatever  ???

I don't know, Don, when I was in the Army my buddy asked if he could sit in the co-pilots seat. The pilot said sure, it was a long flight from Italy to Germany and we were doing an in-flight rigging so we had time to kill. My buddy was sitting in the seat and the pilot asked if he wanted to fly, my buddy said sure and the pilot shut of the autopilot. Instantly we began a gentle descent and when my buddy noticed this he pulled back and then began stalling the plane, this was a C-141. The pilot quickly flipped the autopilot back on and smiled saying, "It ain't as easy as it looks, huh?"

My point is, the slightest movement of the yoke will cause a change in the attitude of the plane. A lot of training and practice is necessary to learn how to actually fly.

Never mind.

I know that arguing my point of view on 9/11 is an exercise in futility in many cases. I should know better than to beat a dead horse.  d*

I'll stick to cabin building discussions and the right to bear arms, cooking and the weather.

 d* I'm with you Don-----discussions with conspiracy nuts is like trying to pick up warm jello with chopsticks while simultaneously wrestling with a pig.

I guess Senator Bob Kerrey, member of the 911 Commission is one of your nutty conspiracy theorists...  or

General Wesley Clark, U.S. Army (ret) – Former Commanding General of U.S. European Command, which included all American military activities in the 89 countries and territories of Europe, Africa, and the Middle East.  Additionally, Supreme Allied Commander Europe (SACEUR), which granted him overall command of NATO military forces in Europe 1997 - 2001.  Awarded Bronze Star, Silver Star, and Purple Heart for his service in Viet Nam and numerous subsequent medals and citations.  Graduated valedictorian of his class at West Point.

Major General Albert Stubblebine, U.S. Army (ret), former Commanding General of U.S. Army Intelligence and Security Command (INSCOM), is a strong critic of the official account of 9/11.  In a 2006 video documentary he said, "One of my experiences in the Army was being in charge of the Army's Imagery Interpretation for Scientific and Technical Intelligence during the Cold War.  I measured pieces of Soviet equipment from photographs. It was my job.  I look at the hole in the Pentagon and I look at the size of an airplane that was supposed to have hit the Pentagon.  And I said, 'The plane does not fit in that hole'.  So what did hit the Pentagon?  What hit it?  Where is it?  What's going on?"

Terrell (Terry) E. Arnold, MA – Former Deputy Director, Office of Counter-Terrorism and Emergency Planning, U.S. State Department. Former Chairman, Department of International Studies, National War College. Graduate of the National War College. Retired Senior Foreign Service Officer of the U.S. Department of State. He has served as a security and crisis management consultant for several Fortune 500 companies. He also served as a crisis management consultant for several Federal agencies, including The State Department, the Department of Defense, the U.S. Customs Service and the Federal Emergency Management Agency. U.S. Navy veteran of World War II and Korean conflict...

Angelo M. Codevilla, PhD – Former U.S. State Department Foreign Service Officer specializing in U.S. intelligence operations in Western Europe. Member of President-Elect Ronald Reagan's Transition Team within the State Department and principal author of the team's report on intelligence. Former Staff Member, U.S. Senate Intelligence Committee dealing with oversight of the intelligence services 1977 - 1985. Former U.S. Naval Officer. Currently Vice Chairman of the U.S. Army War College Board of Visitors.  Professor of International Relations, Boston University 1995 - present. Fellow of the Claremont Institute. Former academic appointments include Professorial Lecturer at Georgetown University; Senior Research Fellow for the Hoover Institution at Stanford University; Assistant Professor, Grove City College; and Assistant Professor, North Dakota State College, Senior Editor of The American Spectator...

Commander Ralph Kolstad, U.S. Navy (ret)  – Retired fighter pilot.  Former Air Combat Instructor, U.S. Navy Fighter Weapons School (Topgun).  20-year Navy career.  Aircraft flown: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom, Douglas A-4 Skyhawk, and Grumman F-14 Tomcat.  Retired commercial airline captain with 27 years experience.  Aircraft flown: Boeing 727, 757 and 767, McDonnell Douglas MD-80, and Fokker F-100.  23,000+ total hours flown.

    * Statement to this website 8/20/07: "I started questioning the Sept 11, 2001 "story" only days after the event.  It just didn't make any sense to me.  How could a steel and concrete building collapse after being hit by a Boeing 767?  Didn't the engineers design it to withstand a direct hit from a Boeing 707, approximately the same size and weight of the 767?  The evidence just didn't add up. ...
      At the Pentagon, the pilot of the Boeing 757 did quite a feat of flying.  I have 6,000 hours of flight time in Boeing 757's and 767's and could not have flown it the way the flight path was described.
      I was also a Navy fighter pilot and Air Combat Instructor, U.S. Navy Fighter Weapons School and have experience flying low altitude, high speed aircraft.  I could not have done what these beginners did.  Something stinks to high heaven!
      Where is the damage to the wall of the Pentagon from the wings?  Where are the big pieces that always break away in an accident?  Where is all the luggage?  Where are the miles and miles of wire, cable, and lines that are part and parcel of any large aircraft?  Where are the steel engine parts?  Where is the steel landing gear?  Where is the tail section that would have broken into large pieces?
      I also personally knew American Airlines Captain "Chick" Burlingame, who was the captain of Flight 77 which allegedly hit the Pentagon, and I know he would not have given up his airplane to crazies!
      And at the Shanksville Pennsylvania impact site, where is any of the wreckage?!!!  Of all the pictures I have seen, there is only a hole!  Where is any piece of a crashed airplane?  Why was the area cordoned off, and no inspection allowed by the normal accident personnel?  Where is any evidence at all?
      When one starts using his own mind, and not what one was told, there is very little to believe in the official "story". ...
      Every question leads to another question that has not been answered by anyone in authority. This is just the beginning as to why I don't believe the official "story" and why I want the truth to be told."

Sgt. Chadwick Brooks and Sgt. William Lagasse – U.S. Pentagon Police Department (Pentagon Force Protection Agency) officers, who were on duty at or near the CITGO gas station on 9/11 and eyewitnesses to the approach of Flight 77 and its alleged impact at the Pentagon.

Edward J. Costello, Jr. – Former Special Agent, Counterterrorism, FBI.  Former Judge pro tem., Los Angeles, CA.

John M. Cole – Former Intelligence Operations Specialist, in the FBI's Counterintelligence Division.  In charge of FBI's foreign intelligence investigations covering India, Pakistan and Afghanistan. 18-year FBI career.   Essay "Stop Belittling the Theories About September 11  8/14/06": "I now think there is persuasive evidence that the events of September did not unfold as the Bush administration and the 9/11 Commission would have us believe. ... An airliner almost certainly did not hit The Pentagon. ... The North and South Towers of the World Trade Center almost certainly did not collapse and fall to earth because hijacked aircraft hit them." http://www.dissidentvoice.org

James D. Smith – Former Able Danger Program Manager for Orion Scientific Systems, a Department of Defense contractor.  Previously at Orion, managed and performed criminal intelligence support activities within the Gulf States Initiative (GSI) Program – a joint federal (U.S. Army and National Guard) and multi-state project (Alabama, Louisiana, Georgia and Mississippi)...

Lt. Col. Anthony Shaffer, U.S. Army Reserve  – Commander of Special Troops Battalion, 9th Theater Support Command. Former Chief of the Army's Controlled HUMINT (Human Intelligence) Program, overseeing Army Intelligence and Security Command's global controlled HUMINT efforts. A former member of the Able Danger data mining program that targeted Al Qaeda's global structure.  Awarded the Bronze Star for bravery. Fellow, Center for Advanced Defense Studies.  23-year military intelligence career.

Capt. Gregory M. Zeigler, PhD, U.S. Army – Former U.S. Army Intelligence Officer * Statement to this website 9/19/06: "I knew from September 18, 2001, that the official story about 9/11 was false. ...

Capt. Daniel Davis, U.S. Army  – Former U.S. Army Air Defense Officer and NORAD Tac Director.  Decorated with the Bronze Star and the Soldiers Medal for bravery under fire and the Purple Heart for injuries sustained in Viet Nam.  Also served in the Army Air Defense Command as Nike Missile Battery Control Officer for the Chicago-Milwaukee Defense Area.  Founder and former CEO of Turbine Technology Services Corp., a turbine (jet engine) services and maintenance company (15 years).  Former Senior Manager at General Electric Turbine (jet) Engine Division (15 years).  Private pilot.

Just a few members - all crazy?  I think not!  Go to the link if you dare, to see the 100's of others.  http://patriotsquestion911.com

Obviously these people controlling the puppets who are visible figureheads in our so called government are smarter than you give them credit for.  They managed to fool you. :)

Funny but the supposed hijackers names were not on the passenger lists.

Yes -something happened - likely Hollywood Special effects scripted for the event.  Yes - a good movie is great isn't it - you'd almost think it was real.

Let me get this straight - Saudi Arabian hijackers  - likely friends of the Bush family who managed security at the airlines involved and the WTC, so we attack Afghanistan - clearing the way for a new government so the oil pipeline Unocal wanted can go in, and then we attack Iraq, who Bush himself said had nothing to do with 9/11.  Why not attack Saudi Arabia where the Supposed Hijackers came from. 

On the sidelines the dancing Israeli's are filming the event - later admitting they are Mossad agents.  How did they know where to set up their cameras.

The air traffic controllers made an audio recording but their boss tore it up.

It is estimated that there only had to be a maximum of 200 people in on the event.  Not even Bush was totally informed on what was going on as his secret codes for his plane were released to keep him running scared.  He was allowed to come back as puppet in chief after the dirty work was completed though -- see his scaredy eyes as he is told of the second plane while reading the goat story to the school children.  From then on, the only thing left for him to do was run as Dirty Dick directed things from his undisclosed location.

and the entire christian establishment, including dozens of popes , bishops, kings, and countless scholars believed the sun revolved around the earth for centuries and happily persecuted and burned those who actually understood the scientific basis of reality.  We no longer burn "true believers"----we just endure the silliness perpetuated by those who ask "questions" but will not or cannot recognize the correct answers. I still hear, ad nauseum, "truthers" claiming that the fire was not hot enough to make the steel in the towers to "melt"-------I was trained in metallurgy and was a certified welding, and structural inspector------the steel frame does not have to melt----it only needs to be heated to the point where the tensile strength is reduced so that it will no longer support the building weight------to try and protect steel frames from fire, the steel is insulated-----it does not fireproof it but only slows the heat rise somewhat until the fire fighters can respond-----that response did not succeed on 9/11. The other "questions" have been answered----there are still, and always will be, those who will refuse to recognize the answers perhaps because they enjoy the argument too much.

If you want to believe the conspiracy sellers----in little green men, a flat earth, the universe revolving around the earth or other such stuff----have fun but don't expect rational folks to take your beliefs seriously------We know you are really good folks-----just a little strange on those subjects

Just heating - weakening the members would not have made it fall straight down and break into easily handled pieces- it would most likely have toppled over sideways.

Funny it fell around a largely undamaged core but this one did not and the fire was bottom to top.

http://engforum.pravda.ru/showthread.php?t=238844

...only in America....

I think some people have a screw loose somewhere.  No offense.  The WTC's fell the way they did, because they lost the structural support in the area that the plane's fuel was burning.  The weight of the stories above, caused the steel columns to collapse the way they did.  Once the collapse started, it was like dominoes.  Everything just collapsed straight down (gravity will do that). 

The chinese structure referenced wasn't complete.  It was only a steel framework.  It didn't have all the additional weight of floors, wall covereings etc.. It wasn't loaded anywhere near its design strength.  If the fire isn't hot enough, the steel won't even collapse.

The people who came up with the WTC attacks, did their homework.  They took a plan full of fuel, and crashed into the middle of the buildings, where they were most vulnerable.

Thanks for proving my point, Don. As I said, people who merely question the validity of the government's position are lumped with every conspiracy nut, and thus the discussion degenerates.

pagancelt, I don't necessarily mean to throw you into the pool of "conspiracy nuts", to use your words.  I do not care to contribute to this topic or others of a similar vein. The discussion invariably quickly becomes polarized and pointless, IMO.

Carry on all.

Don,

Agreed.

Is it still ok to discuss UFO's?  :(

Quote from: MountainDon on March 31, 2009, 02:43:54 PM
pagancelt, I don't necessarily mean to throw you into the pool of "conspiracy nuts", to use your words.  I do not care to contribute to this topic or others of a similar vein. The discussion invariably quickly becomes polarized and pointless, IMO.

Carry on all. 

Probably the main reason it becomes polarized, MtnDon, is that as soon as someone who does not agree with the "official" conspiracy story of 911 or anything else for that matter, gets blackballed immediately - called a "conspiracy nut", a "flat earther" "tin hat" - someone who believes in aliens or some other derogatory remark...  we have carefully looked at your arguments for years (not just the ones you posted, we've read countless others over & over in the MSM).  To me, I am in total incredulity that anyone could believe the "official" stories that have been posted.   

I try not to call you an idiot for believing the "official" conspiracy story, but you & all the rest who have slung crap feel it is perfectly ok to do so.  That's just as much censorship as wiping off the whole post because you denigrate those who don't agree with you. 

It is fear Sassy

some people cannot allow their paradigm to be threatened

they are not stupid they are just afraid

There is of course ample evidence and testimony from real professional pilots, such as John Lear with over 20,000 hours a core member of Pilots for 911 truth, with the most type certificates of any current airman that will flat out tell anyone that they could not have  piloted the planes that hit the towers

There are check ride pilots that attemted to reproduce the flights of 911 in professional simulators and failed time after time after time

There are of course physical limitations such as 757 Vmo of ~350 mph KIAS  (that real pilots understand as opposed to someone that took the yolk of a Bonanza once) that the WTC planes exceeded by a wide margin.

There is the FACT that no other steel structures have ever collapsed from fire -- ever , yet 3 collapsed on 911

There is the fact that Jane Standley of the BBC reported that WTC 7 (that was not hit by a plane) had collapsed 20 minutes BEFORE the building collapsed 

lucky guess ?

NO, according to the BBC it was just a mistake

Except that it is impossible the BBC could have made such a mistake   --- think about it






The other sad fact, Sassy, is that some people are too frightened to allow their carefully nourished paradigm to be shaken  and will suspend any logic, swallow eagerly any silly argument, ignore any social politeness (that they would otherwise abhor such as name calling or defamation of character etc etc) insult long time friends, even be incited to violence (such as the time my sister slapped me because she could not refute my calm facts) to protect their paradigm.

It is a tragedy.

Those of us that are strong enough to face the evil, owe them our sympathy because they are simply acting as  frightened children.   

I have to agree with you, Windpower.  I took my instrument and commercial check rides and passed both.  It is impossible that trainees from a Cessna could do this even if they were good which these ones were not.

It is really funny that we were immediately flying drone planes remotely in Afghanistan with the pilots in the US as soon as we went after the Oil Pipeline problem.

I can face the evil and if we do not have the correct answers we at least have the correct unanswered questions.

QuoteTo me, I am in total incredulity that anyone could believe the "official" stories that have been posted.   

That's funny. You more or less took the words out of my mouth; I am equally incredulous that some people believe the "facts" espoused by the self proclaimed 9/11 "truthers".

I don't mean to call anyone names. If anything I've posted has angered or insulted anyone I am sorry. However, some of the posts, come across to me in a similar condescending manner. Sometimes when reading a reference to things like the alternative 9/11 theories I feel that if I do not rebut I am endorsing the point of view that is divergent from mine. I should probably bite my tongue and shut up.

It's not so much that I believe the official 9/11 line, as much as I have trouble with distortions, omissions and factual stretches common throughout the information presented by people like Dylan Avery. For example, it's my theory that when a building collapses with one floor pancaking on another lower floor, the air between those floors has to go someplace; someplace like out through the sides or windows of the building; resulting in the so-called "squibs"; "proof" that explosives were planted in the towers. I could go into more detail on more items, but I feel there is little point.

What bothers me most about conspiracy theories here on Country Plans Forum is when they are interjected into ordinary topics, topics that have nothing at all to do with 9/11 or other such controversial subjects. To me that removes some of the class, some of the believability, of Country Plans. There is a tremendous amount of great information available here. If one can't find the answer they need, there's a good chance some member will have something worthwhile to contribute about the subject.

Maybe that's just me. No, it is not simply me. There are long time members who have self-restricted their personal use of the forum. They have privately told me so. Some have even thought of deleting their account because of some of the "off the wall" insertions. I know I originally came to the Country Plans Forum for the knowledge about designing and building cabins, about water wells, grading land, alternative construction, and the like. I also enjoy many of the Off Topics subjects that cement a feeling of community.

So those are some of my thoughts on the subject. If I've ruffled some feathers, so be it. It's water under the bridge. I spoke my mind. I believe this is a subject akin to religious beliefs. There are seldom, if ever, winners. There is just divergence of opinion or belief. The wonderful thing is that we in this country are free to express our beliefs.

No personal disrespect meant; no personal disrespect taken.

1)  Are you guys saying that no planes hit the WTC towers?  What was it then that thousands of people witnessed personally and millions say via tv cameras?  If you are saying pilots couldn't reproduce it in a simulator, then how did it happen?  Professional Pilots or Novices... You are saying nobody could do it.

2)  No steel structures have failed?? What planet do you live on?  Thousands of steel structures have failed because of fire.  Once a steel beam reaches about 1000 deg F, it loses its ability to support a load.  Scientific fact.  The whole purpose of fireproofing structural members is to protect them from the fire.  The fireproofing wasn't designed for a jet fuel fire. 

Make sure when you repeat things you have read, or heard, you dig into the facts a bit.  Facts are facts, not somebodies opinion. 

9-11 truthers are right up there, with the people who 'advanced' the whole global warming chirade.

I know I'm 'afraid' of the truth, or don't want to question things, whatever... blah, blah, blah

1. No Bob - not saying that.  We are saying that the official story doesn't add up.  We are saying that , yes - the towers fell.  Explain the lady standing in the gap of the supposedly red hot building waving a white handkerchief of some sort wanting to be rescued.  She was identified.  It did not melt her legs.  The tower still fell.  In the government simulated study of how it supposedly fell, the core was still standing.  When asked about that they did not explain it. 

I can't supply the answers but can supply more questions that make the government conspiracy unbelievable.

Fly by wire planes were already set up to be computer controlled at that time - to be able to be taken over from the ground in case of a hijacking.  I discounted this theory until a few months after 9/11, we were flying the drones in Afghanistan from the US and bragging about it.

Government secrets have always been successfully carried out without  breach for years involving many thousands of military who are in fear of death if they tell.  Loyalty to their cause and country.

Those who are happy with the official drivel and don't want to think there are people evil enough to do this running their government will not see a problem.  Those who are afraid to face tomorrow if it could be true won't see any problem at all.  They will believe the government will take care of them when the chips are down in a disaster. 

Tell that to the Katrina Blacks - the homeless displaced residents shipped out to FEMA camps in all corners of the US.  What happened to them anyway?  All we ever hear of are a very few of them. 

2.  What ever the temperature of the building, the fires were nearly out when the lady was waving the flag from the gaping hole.  The quantity of fuel and the fire was obviously not enough to keep her from standing there waving the flag relatively unscathed.  It is my experience in working with steel that when it cools down to that temperature that it has to be reheated to effect more change.  It doesn't suddenly explode and fall.

So you believe there is no global warming but not the truth about 9/11.  How unpatriotic. :)  Al Gore will not like you. :(

The fine points that we argue over regarding how they pulled it off and/or assisted it don't really matter at all. 

That is the small picture and is of little consequence.  The big point is that they accomplished what they wanted.  We are in endless war on an undefinable enemy making massive profits for the war machine and the elite, and we the people are asked to provide cannon fodder and unlimited money transfer to their pockets.

The global warming lies are also part of this groups money scheming.

Don,

It is my view that the very government that assisted 9/11 for advancement of their purposes in Afghanistan, Iraq, for an open ended paycheck off of the backs of the people, and other military purposes are being directed by the same people that are directing the financial meltdown and transfer of wealth from the government treasuries to the pockets of the elite. 

This is not one evil person or entity.  It is a mass movement by the forces controlling the money, government and big business for lack of a better explanation.  Laws like the septic system rulings we have beat back in California are sponsored by them to prevent the exact way of life we want.  The laws are being slipped in so fast - as in the case of anti-gun laws, and public 4x4 off road laws, that it is nearly impossible to keep anything of the way of life our very forum members want.  The 545 or so people running our federal government have a different agenda than what the people want.  90% of the people voiced their opinion that there be no bail outs but they nearly all went against their constituents wishes.

Thje Supreme court ruling on eminent domain shows how far the corruption has spread.  Our own states are having to declare sovereignty to help save their residents.  What is it that they see that we can't?

If we do not stay aware of what is going on and try to combat it, there will be no need for this forum.  At the rate things are going I can see the day coming when we will abandon this forum, electronic devices attached to government monitored communications and the internet, and then have to survive independently in our own small groups in our own areas without mass communications.

Until that day I will try to help others see and build their own country shelters.

I remember watching an interview with a man whose office floor was cut by one of the wings. He was actually talking on the phone when he saw the plane approaching and he dove under his desk. After the crash he climbed out from under his desk and walked over to the gash through his floor. He says he looked down through ten or twelve stories and could see office furniture and papers fluttering around. I also remember him saying that although he could see flames, he was amazed that it was not very hot. He had to climb over the wing tip to exit his office and worked his way down several floor where he bumped into a group of firefighters who were dumbfounded that he'd survived.

This took place moments after the impact and he could stand at the very top of the impact area and gaze down through the hole created by the plane. Yet our government says at that same point in time the fire was burning so hot that the steel supports were weakening.

Much of the fuel went out the other side of the building in at least one of the crashes.  What a coincidence that both buildings and one that was not hit went down within minutes and hours of each other on the same day.  3 of them but it seldom happens on other days -- d*

I for one don't put that much stock in coincidences happening that way.

I am a pilot private/instrument/commercial rated.  I do not fly now but was flying more than 90% of the private pilots at that time.  In my plane I have been intercepted by military when slightly off course yet these guys flew for a very long time and were not intercepted - in fact m the military was ordered out of the air. ???

Their failure to have a problem with ATC and the military was not possible without assistance and cancellation of standard operating procedures.  That is why I did not believe the official story from the first minute.  The Air Traffic Controllers are extreme professionals and would not have let it happen without an intercept unless  they were prevented from it.

Quote from: rwanders on March 29, 2009, 08:38:55 PM
I am always bemused by people who usually are anxious to describe how incompetent, lazy, unorganized and simply stupid the government is but when something like 9/11 occurs are equally sure that same incompetent government somehow manages to organize some vast conspiracy, pull it off and then maintain secrecy among the hundreds or thousands of incompetent government employees required to accomplish the plan or deeds. The same employees who cannot keep anything secret from the media cockroaches the rest of the time.

Give me a break!!   

Good for you rwanders [cool]

Is this the same incompetent government that ran project "Green Run?" If you don't know about it, that's ok, they kept it secret. In late 1949 the US government ordered the intentional release of radiation from the Hanford processing plant in Washington. The government then tracked the health affects on the people who were contaminated. Of course those people didn't know they'd been deliberately contaminated with radiation by their own government, it was, after all, a matter of national security. This remained secret until the 1980s. I guess some people in government can keep secrets.

How about the Tuskegee syphilis study? Yup, once again incompitant government employees kept a secret about the government withholding medication from men infected with syphilis so the illness could be examined as it progressed in the men.

What about the "X" planes? SR 71, U-2, Stealth Fighter and Stealth Bomber. All kept secret for years.

Never make the assumption that your government cares if you live, for those in power will kill you slowly and painfully if it suits their purposes.

I agree with you pagancelt.  They can keep secrets through intimidation and threats of prison or death.  There is  a group in DC that purposely sets up traps and records blackmail items to control the politicians - they have something on near all of them --

Many of our service people in the armed forces are so loyal to their oath that they would never utter a word if ordered not to. Some are under the impression they must never tell no matter what criminal crap their superiors pull.

One of my covert ops friends stated that we are being ruled by the most evil group of people in the world.  He stated that we are not there to help people in the middle east - we are there to kill them.....

He said he would not have talked to me if he had not been here and know s exactly where I stand.

They can keep secrets.  If they know too much they may get a missile deployed directly at them as my other buddy did or some other odd accident. 

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705295677/Traces-of-explosives-in-911-dust-scientists-say.html?pg=1

There is nothing friendly about friendly fire.

Empire of Oil: the hidden history of 9/11



http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=Empire+of+oil+Monagan&hl=en&emb=0&aq=f#

Interesting video-

"It Definitely did not look a commercial plane - I didn't see any windows on the side"  Mark Burnback, Fox News.

Marine 6, "that plane was a large bomber style green aircraft, into the second tower, be advised" along with a decent pix of it.

Quote from: pagancelt on April 08, 2009, 07:04:45 AM
There is nothing friendly about friendly fire.

I'm sure he said it was the Tennessee National Guard - pulled up in a Humvee as I recall- set up a small missle and fired it directly at them - his men were pretty well vaporized - we saw the x-rays of the "Lag Bolts" holding him together.

Thanks for posting that video, Windpower, I hadn't seen that one before.  Really puts it all together...  there's so much incriminating evidence...   

I was almost on the receiving end of an A-10 attack.

Was it intentional or accidental or do you know?  That had to be scary.  A wart hog is not friendly fire.

Accidents happen but our friend's was positively intended.  There was no question.  Pat Tilman's was intentional.  He saw through the lies and was trying to come back and talk.  Unfortunately for him, he was too well known and an accident was in order.

Do you want the whole story?

Please - if it is safe for you to tell it.

It was a training exercise that took place in 1986, so it should be safe. Sorry about this being so long, and the language.

I was assigned to an artillery battery on Ft. Bragg. Yup, I was a jumper. My battery commander decided it would be an excellent training mission if we took five of the six howitzers to the range and then at night the one lone gun left behind would fire illumination rounds and the five guns on the range would do direct fire missions. Sounded cool, right? I was with the Battery Operations Center and we maintained the radio communications with Fire Direction Center which stayed with the one gun a few miles away from the range.

While waiting for it to get dark enough to satisfy the commander, it was around midnight, everybody, including said commander, was sleeping. While I was laying there listening to the occasional radio transmission I heard two A-10s approaching. They flew past us at a few hundred feet. A few moments later I heard this transmission (paraphrased)

"Whiskey Niner to Range Control."
"Range Control go ahead."
"Whiskey Niner request permission to fire on new targets in tree line on 23."
"Range Control wait one.

Now, I was a tad fuzzy, having not had adequate sleep for three or four days, but my mind was working. While I lay there I heard the two A-10s fly by again, this time close enough that I could see one of the pilots looking at us in the moonlight. Then I heard this.

"Range Control to Whiskey Niner."
"Whiskey Niner go ahead."
"Range Control clear to fire on new targets in tree line on Range 23."
"Whiskey Niner, roger, out."

Both planes flew past again, banking to allow the pilots to better see the tree line. One plane accelerated and then banked hard lining up with the tree line while the other plane flew upside down across the range from our position. He was obviously observing the attack.

I rolled over and punched my buddy in the head. He was, as you might imagine, less than enthused with being so rudely awaken. Here is our conversation as best my memory serves me.

Buddy: "What the ****?"
Me: "Those A-10s are cleared to fire on new targets in the tree line on Range 23."
Buddy: "So what?"
Me: "We're on Range 23, right?"

Just like in the movies, we both sat up and looked up and down the tree line at the Gamma Goats and Howitzers nicely lined up just inside the trees.

Me: "You know what we are?"
Buddy: "We're the new ****ing targets on Range 23."

We both jumped up, he ran down the line of guns shouting for everybody to light something. I grabbed a flare from our Gamma Goat and shot it over the range. Our commander came bounding out from his jeep yelling...

Commander: "Who the **** just shot that ****ing flare?"
Me: "I did, sir."
Commander: "What the **** is your problem, stud?"

With our commander you were either a stud, a puppy, or if you did something exemplary you were a stud puppy.

Buddy: "Sir, those A-10s are cleared to fire on new targets in the tree line on Range 23."

Our commander was a bit quicker on the uptake.

Commander: "Light up everything or we're all ****ing dead!"

As they proceeded to turn on head lights, shoot flares, blanks, anything they had. I ran back to the BOC Gamma Goat to get on the radio. As I got to the radio I heard this and I assume it was the pilot flying upside down and observing the new targets.

"Check that, I got movement."
"Roger."

The A-10 flew directly over us and then banked slightly as it climbed. Then we heard this.

"Whiskey Niner to Range Control."
"Range Control go ahead."
"Whiskey Niner are there personnel on Range 23?"
"Range Control negative, you're cleared to fire."
"Whiskey Niner check that, we have movement in the tree line."
"Range Control wait one."

The two A-10s were flying around Range 23 waiting and then we heard this.

"Check Fire! Check Fire! Check Fire! Personnel on Range 23. I say again, personnel on Range 23."
"Whiskey Niner, roger, personnel on Range 23."

The two A-10s flew off and we went on with our mission eventually firing the howitzers at about 0200 hours. It was cool and white phosphorous at night is truly beautiful.

Our commander talked with range control officers and even met with the two pilots. He told me that the attacking pilot was going to fire just as the other pilot radioed for him to check fire. Oh, and I got an Army Achievement Medal for keeping us from being the new targets on Range 23, and I was a stud puppy until I got out of the Army.

Just one of several close calls. People are surprised when I tell them some of the things that happened while I was in the Army. They just don't realize how dangerous training missions are.

That is an experience I would not have wanted to live through or die through for that matter.

One of my army covert ops friends related a story to me of a commander who wanted brownie points so he inserted a team so far behind enemy lines there was no way to support them.  It resulted in the deaths of lots of civilians during the rescue of our covert ops team - all for no purpose brownie points - a medal to wear on the front of a shirt.

He is the one who was fragged.

Can secrets be kept?  Yes - by a lot of men for a long time.  Especially when there is a death penalty.

I'm sure that goes on all of the time. Combat medals come with huge promotion points, not to mention they count towards calculating your retirement pay.

I served with a guy who had a Medal of Honor. He was an asshole but every time a promotion slot came up he got it because of how many points that one medal gave him.

My sis-in-law sent me this...  it rather fits into the discussion...

Here is a little something someone sent me that is
indisputable
mathematical logic. It also made me Laugh Out Loud.
This
is a strictly mathematical viewpoint...it goes like this:
What Makes
100%? What does it mean to give MORE than 100%? Ever wonder about
those
people who say they are giving more than 100%? We have all been to
those
meetings where someone wants you to give over 100%. How about achieving
103%?
What makes up 100% in life?

Here's a little mathematical formula
that might help you answer these
questions:

If:
A B C D E F G H I J
K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z
is
represented as:
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
26.

Then:

H-A -R -D-W-O -R -K
8+1+18+4+23+15+18+11 =
98%

and

K -N -O -W-L
-E-D-G-E
11+14+15+23+12+5+4+7+5 =
96%

But,

A-T -T
-I -T -U -D-E
1+20+20+9+20+21+4+5 =
100%

And,
B -U -L -L -* -*-*
-*
2+21+12+12+19+8+9+20 = 103%

AND, look how far a**
kissing

will take
you.
A-* -* -K -I -S-S -I
-N-G
1+19+19+11+9+19+19+9+14+7
= 118%

So, one can conclude
with mathematical certainty, that While Hard work and Knowledge
will get you close, and Attitude will get you there, it's the
Bull%&$# and
A$&kissing that will put you over the
top!!!!!

My experience leads me to believe the mathmatical formula is correct.