Hello folks been sitting reading and absorbing all the good information here. So I thought I would post my own experience as well. A little history spent 20 years in the USAF in Security Forces retired still work the pension is not that good :D . Bought 52 acres in Northern Missouri about 3 years ago with the plan being to move there when I do finally retire. I train German Shorthair Pointers for hunting and competition. I own I have three Scout, Blade and Hunter. So I get to spend a lot of time with them on the farm and I have the farm registered with MDC as a private dog training area so I can train them year round.
The property was over grown and no water or electric over the past three years I have added both water and electric. Last year we spent rebuilding a couple of blow out ponds since the drought here had them completely dried out. Change of plan designed by mother nature.
So this year I am planning two building project. One is a cabin the other is a barn.
(http://www.autumnoakskennel.com/gallery/content/pictures1/Cabin%20Plans/2012-06-30_15-50-42_997.jpg)
(http://www.autumnoakskennel.com/gallery/content/pictures1/Cabin%20Plans/Phone%20358.jpg)
(http://www.autumnoakskennel.net/gallery/content/pictures1/Cabin%20Plans/2013-04-20_13-38-36_48%20(2).jpg)
Current using a camper on the site. The cabin will be a replacement for camper. Planning on a 16 x 32. I have included some of the plans I have been busy updating them and start the actual build this weekend. This one is going to be a solo design and build.
(http://www.autumnoakskennel.net/gallery/content/pictures1/Cabin%20Plans/floor%20plan.jpg)
(http://www.autumnoakskennel.net/gallery/content/pictures1/Cabin%20Plans/ExteriorNorthWest.jpg)
(http://www.autumnoakskennel.net/gallery/content/pictures1/Cabin%20Plans/ExteriorSouthEast.jpg)
(http://www.autumnoakskennel.net/gallery/content/pictures1/Cabin%20Plans/Foundation.jpg)
I have more on the design I will upload later and I will keep everyone updated on progress and questions. Thank you for all the good information I have read already.
Your plan sounds all too familiar! I'm doing the same thing and am a year into it....it's been very interesting and very rewarding. w*
Thanks for the welcome NavyDave. It is that both reward and relaxing and I can do with the exercise. ;D Realized I had not put any of the interior design in. I am working at keeping this as simple and self sustaining as possible.
(http://www.autumnoakskennel.com/gallery/content/pictures1/Cabin%20Plans/InteriorWest.jpg)
(http://www.autumnoakskennel.com/gallery/content/pictures1/Cabin%20Plans/InteriorEast.jpg)
I also went from 2 to 4 bee hives in the last two years.
(http://www.autumnoakskennel.com/gallery/content/pictures1/Bee%20Pictures/2012-04-05_15-48-42_896.jpg)
Two of my boys Scout and his son Hunter.
(http://www.autumnoakskennel.com/gallery/content/pictures3/hunter%20farm%20037.jpg)
For the cabin it is staked out I will post some pictures that that and the pier post going in this weekend. With any luck and the weather improves I may be able to get the rim boards floor joist and flooring down. That may be a little optimistic. ;)
WHat year is the Chevy 1969+- . Looks like the dogs are enjoying the pond you made..
It is a '71 belonged to my Grandfather he bought it new when I was 11! Geez that was a long time ago. That was one the old pond before it completely dried out. The rebuilds are significantly deeper. ;-) it is one of the reasons I can not get a concrete truck on the property. ;)
w* Looks like a nice area. Lots of information here and it's all free for the asking. Look forward to seeing your progress.
w* What drawing program are you using? Are the details in the foundation sheet generated by the program?
I am using Punch HLD Architecture Design 17. It is a easy to use program you do not need drafting skills to use it. I had minimal knowledge one year drafting class in High school in 1975 LOL.
The details for things like the foundation and walls you see posted I had to draw manually using an add-on that is included in the power tools call a Section Detailer. It is probably one of the most useful power tools included other than the landscaping tool.
The detailer does have the ability to create a 2x12x16 floor joist and recreate it so you do not have to hand draw them all and you can adjust the size afterwards if you need to. I have gone to creating the basic floor layouts and then using the detailer to detail out the sections.
PROS: I like it gives you the flexibility of greater detail to specific sections, nice 3D options easy to use floor plan design. It also includes a nice materials listing of your project and several other tools I probably will never use but nice to haves. It also includes a landscape detailer that allows you to change the age of the plants so that tree my wife wants to plant next to the cabin I can logically and visually explain why it is not a good idea to have it that close. ;) It will give you a very solid basic building layout very quickly with all the options and modifications you could ever want for doors, windows, walls, foundations and roof styles.
CONS: The detailer does not allow me to measure in less than 1 inch increments, the floor plan part does, and maybe I have not figured that out yet but it is frustrating when you know the size of the lumber and want to get to those specific details. Just have to remember a 6x6 post may actually be 5 1/2x5 1/2" and plan accordingly". Roofing is a pain with this program. if your going to do a standard hip roof with no modification it is great, want to make adjustments and modifications add a porch not so much. I spent more time doing that than I did detailing the foundation. You can do it, it is just plain painful.
Cost wise it is fairly inexpensive like $30 I think is what I paid. There is a professional version I used that a friend has it is about $300 but I did not see any functionality in that one that us DIY guys would use.
Word of caution I find the roofing section to be sub par and it is something they need to fix the roofing details are not correct for trusses. I am using Visual Analysis 10 for truss design however it is significantly more complicated to use.
I should also mention he core application has a nice overlay feature that shows only the floor plan, electrical plan and plumbing plan without everything else in the way, then you can look at them as a combined plan and see if there is any issues or adjustments that need to be made. It has been good at showing me where I need to make adjustments which I would rather do now before a nail goes in a board. ;)
For the price I guess it doesn't do any engineering; sizing of members like joists, rafters, beams, footings? But then all that is in the IRC so it wouldn't have to have that function. It's primarily a floor plan and aesthetics of design tool.
That's a good description Don and thank you for the welcome. For the details you see and the IRC comments I add those in as part of my research. Visual Analysis will actually do the engineering calculations and is a nice tool I am currently using the 30 day trail version and it has some nice features. Do not have enough experience to give a perspective on the product. I am using AWC tools to check my things like load capacity and span widths.
I am putting the comments in the plans so 5 years from now when I want to know why I did something a specific way it will jog my memory. ;)
Wall plans finalized today.
(http://www.autumnoakskennel.com/gallery/content/pictures1/Cabin%20Plans/Wall%20Details.jpg)
I am trying to figure out the overall dimensions. The pictures aren't high enough resolution or maybe just too low a jpg quality, but I can't make the figures and print out. I think it's 16 feet wide? ??? Is the length about 30 - 32 feet? That's about the size that would make me happy as long as I had a shed for all the junk I have. Maybe it would take a barn like you plan on.
Do you mind me asking some probably dumb questions?
Most everyone builds these small cabins with a loft and from my experience visiting a few they are all too hot upstairs all the time. I like the choice of no loft. There are one or two other projects here with just a main floor. Not too many though. But there are many variations in how to do of the parts that get me confused.
Ask away,
Yes it will be 16x32 I decided to keep storage separate specifically in the barn. Currently I am using a 40' container which will become incorporated into the barn and become a secure workshop. Such as a 40x30 barn with 10'wings out each side one side open for equipment, plow planters etc. the other wing as an enclosed shop.
In the cabin I specifically decided to go without a loft and will more than likely go with an engineered scissors truss. across the 16 foot span, 16" OC. Snow load is not bad in Northern Missouri, I say that but we had record snow fall this year. ;) More than like a 4 or 5/12 pitch. I would do a higher pitch if I was going to put a loft in or go with a barn style gable.
One word of caution on the containers, they weigh about 22,000 lbs (at least the 40 footer does) in my case they had to drop it at the front gate and we had to use two tractors and drag it to its current location. When they tried driving it on the rig become stuck and he had to use his trailer hydraulics to pull himself out. When I move it to its final position it will be sitting on gravel however there will be 6 - 8" wide concrete pillars in the ground 4' deep. One on each corner and two in the midpoint to avoid any settling.
George Carlin said, a house is a box where we store our junk. Barns do make sense.
Carla, starting a thread with questions on an idea would probably garner more responses.
I may be reading it wrong. The girders don't seem to size up. Thoughts?
Well this was a challenge; getting online sort of in the middle of nowhere SW UT. Sitting on a ridge top above the campsite with a couple bars that I think is from a tower near Kanab. Woo-hoo!
Hope your weekend is going as well as mine has so far.
I don't know, I have a feeling I'm about to stick my foot in my mouth. ??? It's been there before, so I guess I'll open wide and take the plunge. I've been expecting at least one of the usual suspects here to ask this before me. So I'm sure I'm missing something, someplace, somehow.
I've read a whole lot on this forum about building and building design. I've noticed a diversity of methods. I notice two areas that develop controversy more than any others. Before starting my search for small home ideas and how they are made I thought all homes were built on concrete slabs or had basements or crawl spaces; I lived in all three. Then I encountered a lot of piers with beams when I started looking at owner built cabins. I see lots of controversy over their suitability, though. There's a lot of anecdotal eveidence, 'well i've seen lots that have stood for a hundred years...' vs the analytical explanations of the weak points. I thought I was understanding and now I'm uncertain again. :-\
I investigate certain things for a living. I look for patterns and anomalies to the patterns. When I read this topic for the first time the piers jumped out at me. The piers are like none I've seen before. When I first saw the drawing I said to myself, 'he's got bandages on the piers, wonder why?' Funny me. I don't understand their purpose. Then I wondered what the 'skewers' were for; the rebar through the pier? I've not seen that done before either. I'm thinking this is something new and wonderful and easy to do and I wonder where the idea came from, how it is supposed to work for loads up and down and sideways.
I've spent hours trying to reconcile this with other information I've read and I come up perplexed. Like I said nobody else seems puzzled or bothered and so I'm going in circles and figure eights figuring I don't have the whole picture. I know I am missing some detail, some fact, something.
If I'm out of line give me a whack with a virtual 2x4. I'm just trying to figure things out. I know there are major parts of my potential cabin I will have to hire out. When I go to hire someone I'll be better off if I know how a job should be done and be able to tell a snow job from a good job.
The campfire beckons, :D and so does the box of wine. :-*
call dropped twice already, maybe the third time will be the charm :)
Mabey its too early and i am not far enough i to thisnpot of coffee but you kna lost me with bandages on piers and whatnot.
The biggestvproblem with piers is people not sizing thrm properly, not using enough of thrm, not bracing them or just flat out using thdm where they shouldnt be used. My soil is pure sand so i was aprehensive about using piers. in the end i ended up adding extra piers and widening out the base of thrm to increase thebsurface area. I think i used an 8'' sonotube for thebpier itself but the bottom of the hole is widened out to around 24''. I have three pieces of rebar bent at about 100 degrees with 18'' on the flat horizontal surface on the bottom of the hole and the rest extending up through the tube. This prvides reinforcment for the concrete on the horizontal and verticle. perhaps there was a better way but i believe this will work andni have seen it done before.
Piers is the most comon foundation you see here in south eastvtx. Some are very scarry. I see many houses built just sittingnon a stack of cinder blocks. Welcome to the land of no building codes. Remember this is huricane country too
Carla_M I post with a sincere hope for feedback suggestions or learning something from others experiences. So I won't smack you with a virtual 2x4. ;)
Good weekend but it was a wash literally, another inch of all day rain Saturday and Sunday but not going to complain considering how dry we were last year and all the new ponds are full. So you have to go with what nature gives you. ;)
Piers and full foundations are a topic I have read what feels like 100's of post here on the subject. We have been back and forth on this subject even with locals in our area. When you look at homes built in specific areas you will see multiple soil related issues. Eastern Missouri you find a number of problems with basement and slab foundations where there are massive vertical cracks in the wall due to the expansion of clay, improper soil compactions, improper drainage, poor quality concrete, cost savings by pouring 8" walls in an area that should have 9" walls and significant rebar. Some of the homes we looked at had cracks 1/4" or larger. One was so large there was no way it would pass inspection without the wall being torn out and rebuilt.
When I moved back to St Louis and moved into the St Charles area we looked at 20 - 30 homes and everyone of them had this issue including some newer (less than 5 years old) construction. The home we finally decided on was over 20 years old was owned by the builder of this development and has 9 1/2' concrete walls with no cracks after 20 years. He also put 9' ceilings in the basement.
The reality is the broader the base (foundation) the better the weight distribution is the math shows us that and in a more practical application if you jack your car up in the yard with a hydraulic jack with a small base the jack will push itself in the ground. Place a sheet of 3/4 2' x 2' ply wood under the jack int he same location it will compress in the ground but a majority of the lift will jack the car up.
So with that said most people would ask why am I using piers. I have a couple of problems on the farm in Northern Missouri. First being the front of my property first 5 acres has some grades as steep as 9% on tilt angle (real risk of a roll over for loaded heavy high profile vehicles). During the heat of last summer the ponds completely dried up which gave me the opportunity to get gravel down (32 Tons) and we rebuilt the dam which we use to cross that area now. Considering that a cubic yard of concrete can weigh as much as 3,300 - 4,000 lbs and that I need about 6 yards of concrete to pour a foundation for this project to do it right roughly 19,000 lbs of concrete (not including the weight of the truck approximately 26,000 lbs) across 500 feet of new gravel and a small pond dam.
So a couple of facts about the area. We are just outside the impact zone of the of the New Madrid fault, the risk of an earth quake increases about 1-2% each year we are well over due 70%. Source from the University of Missouri Columbia Extension Center. So in the worst case of an 8.6 magnitude earthquake at the center of the New Madrid Fault our county is considered a risk level of VII. Source http://sema.dps.mo.gov/eq%20map.pdf (http://sema.dps.mo.gov/eq%20map.pdf). That means in real terms I will have a hard time standing up and damage to well build building - slight to moderate. Flooding damage at this location nearly none if I get flooded the rest of the state is going to be in really bad shape. Tornado's and straight line winds are the number one threat and even that is limited if you look at the Tornado frequency tracking by the University of Missouri. Winds I am less concerned about the prevailing westerly's for me are blocked at this location by some very well establish Hickory, Walnut and Oak trees. Tornado's that's a different issue and is why we will have an underground storm shelter. If you go back and look at the pictures of what happen in Joplin and what I experienced first hand with our Search and Rescue Dogs, no mater what foundation you build or how well it is attached a Tornado is just going to wreak devastation on everything. Foundation will still be there but little else.
So I went about talking to some of my neighbors whose homes and pole barns (some over 100 years old) of how they were built and why they were able to survive so long. So a couple of things appeared consistent in long standing level structures. Regardless of foundation they were all 4 feet in the ground. Structures with piers were all of a collared type with up lift post in the poles. All the structures with old foundations in good condition had proper drainage built into place. The ratio of above ground pier related to the in ground section never exceeded 50% of the buried depth. Rim boards and floor joist were all 2x12.
So for me piers appeared to be a viable option for this area and property. If any of the variables changed I would have probably gone with a preferred poured foundation. So while I could probably assume 3,000 - 4,000 PSI on the soil as tested I have designed based on 2,000 (worst case), we have typically on this property 18" of top soil followed by clay sand mix with one deviation. The front of the property sits on a sand stone rock formation that runs in a 2 mile wide strip for nearly 100 miles south west to north east with some occasional outcrops, I have 2 on my property which are part of the formation. Putting fence post in the ground (4 feet deep) I have never hit this structure
So the other common option would have been a block foundation. I looked at that as an option however none of the ones in this area have survived very long. Even Big Blue and Orange carry a very limited number of these blocks locally which I found to be telling by itself.
So on to my pier design. 6x6 post 4' in the ground, one of the details I left off I need to go back and add, (thank you for that) sometimes I do not see the forest for the trees ;)
The holes will actually be a little deeper to allow for 2" clean gavel in the bottom and a 12" diameter concrete pad minimum of 3000 psi. The post will have rebar run though in two locations on alternating side. The post will sit on the concrete pad this back fill 25% (1') of the post with soil compacted, the next 50% (2') of concrete. This is known as the collar. The last 25% (1') again compacted soil. Exposed above ground post 2' on east end and 4' on the west end. The west end will have an 8' covered porch on the West, East and North side.
I have actually removed a post of this type on my property had been there according to my neighbor as long as he had been there that that had been over 30 years. ;) I thought like some post on the property I would push it and A. It would break off or B I could lift it out. I actually had to dig 75% of the post out of the ground to pull it out. It was in amazing condition considering how long it had been in the ground I have 2 more in my fence line and we just left them an incorporated them in the fence.
One of the take away and I am in the house of a poured foundation but I also think you have to adjust to your specific conditions and circumstances which takes a good deal of research and some of the best information can come from old timers. Concrete work has come a long ways from when I was 16 working as a day laborer for my grandfathers construction company.
Hope the weekend went well. Wine and a campfire sounds perfect. ;)
Quote from: CjAl on April 28, 2013, 07:41:59 AM
Mabey its too early and i am not far enough i to thisnpot of coffee but you kna lost me with bandages on piers and whatnot.
The biggestvproblem with piers is people not sizing thrm properly, not using enough of thrm, not bracing them or just flat out using thdm where they shouldnt be used. My soil is pure sand so i was aprehensive about using piers. in the end i ended up adding extra piers and widening out the base of thrm to increase thebsurface area. I think i used an 8'' sonotube for thebpier itself but the bottom of the hole is widened out to around 24''. I have three pieces of rebar bent at about 100 degrees with 18'' on the flat horizontal surface on the bottom of the hole and the rest extending up through the tube. This prvides reinforcment for the concrete on the horizontal and verticle. perhaps there was a better way but i believe this will work andni have seen it done before.
Piers is the most comon foundation you see here in south eastvtx. Some are very scarry. I see many houses built just sittingnon a stack of cinder blocks. Welcome to the land of no building codes. Remember this is huricane country too
I know what you mean I have seen some old work bungalows for migrant workers that were built in to 30's. Most are tilted to one side or the other but they were meant at that time to house families during the harvest season. Water is the killer for any foundations of any type. Most of the ones I see with problems can usually be traced back to water.
SO since the weather is not cooperating with my plans. ;) I went ahead an finished the roof system. Yes I went in a different direction than originally planned. So I went and looked at one of these in a prefab and while not the best construction the concept worked well and is a common roof system basically because it works. ;)
Carla_M I agree these can be hot all the time, I am going to spend some time to see if I can come up with a reasonable solution. It might be as simple as leaving it open at one end with a down draft ceiling fan. On thing I have noticed about many lofts in the local area they are not designed with venting in mind. none of the prefabs I have seen locally include any roof venting only side wall venting.
At this point I am thinking about a ridge vent I and using Strongpanel metal roofing. They make a ridge vent to run the entire length. Vented between the rafter and protected with hardware wire on the inside should create a nice up draft and move eliminate heat and condensation.
(http://www.autumnoakskennel.net/gallery/content/pictures1/Cabin%20Plans/RoofSystem.jpg)
Thoughts from anyone on roof systems?
Quote from: GSPDOG on April 28, 2013, 11:58:28 AM
I know what you mean I have seen some old work bungalows for migrant workers that were built in to 30's. Most are tilted to one side or the other but they were meant at that time to house families during the harvest season. Water is the killer for any foundations of any type. Most of the ones I see with problems can usually be traced back to water.
Found what I was looking for. This was done out of a team in Texas and talks specifically to the Advantages and Disadvantages of various foundation systems.
http://www.foundationperformance.org/projects/FPA-SC-01-0.pdf (http://www.foundationperformance.org/projects/FPA-SC-01-0.pdf)
Quote from: GSPDOG on April 28, 2013, 11:50:04 AM
Carla_M I post with a sincere hope for feedback suggestions or learning something from others experiences. So I won't smack you with a virtual 2x4. ;
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Hope the weekend went well. Wine and a campfire sounds perfect. ;)
Wow! Lots to read there. :)
Did you ever consider a PWF? It's something I've seen mentioned as an alternative to other foundations when concrete is not easy or desired.
The weekend was super! Hiked and climbed in some very cool slot canyons near Kanab. Never got lost, no injuries, nice primitive out of the way campsite; can't ask for more than that.
Quote from: GSPDOG on April 28, 2013, 01:50:12 PM
Found what I was looking for. This was done out of a team in Texas and talks specifically to the Advantages and Disadvantages of various foundation systems.
http://www.foundationperformance.org/projects/FPA-SC-01-0.pdf (http://countryplans.com/projects/FPA-SC-01-0.pdf)
Loads of pages to read and digest in that. Might take a while. :D
I hope to never have to worry about expansive soils.
If I got this right the piers are based on observing older standing pole barn construction. I probably should not admit to this but I had no idea what a pole barn was. I knew a horse barn was where you lept horses, so... it did not add up. I googled. :D Now I know, and that got me thinking again, not always a good thing.
I think I see a difference between what I read about poles barns and what I see in your plan. Maybe it makes a difference, maybe it doesn't?.
I found pole barns with poles extending from 2, 3, 4 feet deep in the ground and running up to the roofline. Your poles are short, stopping at the floor line. I guess that what makes them piers and not poles. Does this change matter? ??? I ask because sometimes concepts lose something when modified and they don't work as well as the original model. I have a killer cake recipe, but if I left out the eggs it would not be the same. Not the best analogy maybe, but the best I could come up with.
If I understand what is going on in a pole barn, at least ones with side walls, is that the walls tie the poles and everything together into a box structure. The walls help make it stiff and keep the poles ends in the dirt pointed where they should stay pointed. But when the long poles become short piers the whole thing loses that box on top that stiffens the pole legs. There's a dividing line at the floor line. So are the piers now freer to move in the dirt because they don't have long upper ends with the barn box on top? I don't know if I'm making that clear or if it matters or not?
Quote from: GSPDOG on April 28, 2013, 01:10:47 PM
(http://www.autumnoakskennel.net/gallery/content/pictures1/Cabin%20Plans/RoofSystem.jpg)
Thoughts from anyone on roof systems?
I've visited two cabins that were prefab sheds with roofs like that. They were miserably hot inside in summer. Is that an easy roof to build yourself safely? It does provide more loft headroom than the gable. Maybe it can be better done if purpose designed and built for a cabin instead of a shed?
And I guess you have to like or tolerate the barn look. :D I'm not sure on that aspect. I love windows and windows on the sides would mean dormers which means a little more design and a little more construction. It's a balancing act.
Quote from: Carla_M on April 30, 2013, 05:21:30 PM
If I got this right the piers are based on observing older standing pole barn construction. I probably should not admit to this but I had no idea what a pole barn was. I knew a horse barn was where you lept horses, so... it did not add up. I googled. :D Now I know, and that got me thinking again, not always a good thing.
I think I see a difference between what I read about poles barns and what I see in your plan. Maybe it makes a difference, maybe it doesn't?.
I found pole barns with poles extending from 2, 3, 4 feet deep in the ground and running up to the roofline. Your poles are short, stopping at the floor line. I guess that what makes them piers and not poles. Does this change matter? ??? I ask because sometimes concepts lose something when modified and they don't work as well as the original model. I have a killer cake recipe, but if I left out the eggs it would not be the same. Not the best analogy maybe, but the best I could come up with.
If I understand what is going on in a pole barn, at least ones with side walls, is that the walls tie the poles and everything together into a box structure. The walls help make it stiff and keep the poles ends in the dirt pointed where they should stay pointed. But when the long poles become short piers the whole thing loses that box on top that stiffens the pole legs. There's a dividing line at the floor line. So are the piers now freer to move in the dirt because they don't have long upper ends with the barn box on top? I don't know if I'm making that clear or if it matters or not?
Pole Barns were and still a viable solution to cold storage for ag equipment. Basics the poles hold the structure up linear horizontal lumber for stability and something to screw sheet metal into. They typically put trusses 8' (yes eight feet) OC they are not designed for over head storage typically. Old barns in may cases had hay lofts so included interior post for additional support. With todays hay wraps most hay is no longer stored that way.
Any ways the post height becomes risky the higher you go the larger the pole to prevent it from being pulled out of the ground and to support the above ground structure. an analogy; when we are going to take large trees down we use a crawler and with the bucket high on the tree we can typically push them over. If I was to cut the same tree down and leave 5 feet of the stump out the ground it is almost impossible to move it with out digging around it first and cutting the roots.
The potential risk with piers improper placement and since the weight in my case is distributed over 12 post if I screw-up putting them in and one settles the structure becomes tilted. On the positive side I will be able to find all my marbles in one corner of the house. :LOL:
I knew I didn't take enough time to explain my thought process. Some of my own analogies go wide of the mark. I think this one misses to a large degree as well if I have thought this out correctly. I'll try to explain why. There are a few things that came to mind.
First of all though, I want to say I've seen pushing over 70 foot pines and firs when clearing to make a new road. It's pretty awesome to see how easy the trees go over. But that's pushing on one tree at a time, not many trees that are tied together as they are, or should be, in a building.
1. I don't think you can compare pushing over a whole tree with the push point far up the trunk to pushing over a cut off stump where you are pushing lower down, like 5 feet above ground level. Yes the 5 foot length will be more difficult. But if our planned cabin was built on stumps or piers, the fair comparison would be to nail the cut off tree trunk to the stump, raise the bucket and then push at the same upper level as before and see what happens. A cabin on short piers is basically nailed to the tops of the short piers. The pole structure has the post running through the wall from roof down to the bottom and the footing. I see that as a big difference.
2. Trees have a root system that can be quite complex. I'm not sure it is fair to compare that to a timber stuck in the ground even if there is concrete on the lower end. A test measuring the forces required would make for an interesting article.
3. The pole barns I looked at all had wall panels spanning the distances between poles, just like you'd have in a horse barn or a cabin. That ties the poles all together where they act as a team not individuals. Like this one.
(https://i761.photobucket.com/albums/xx251/carlarmoore/barns/horsebarn_zps0f98c090.jpg) (http://countryplans.com/user/carlarmoore/media/barns/horsebarn_zps0f98c090.jpg.html)
Or this one that I can easily imagine could be a cabin I could live with.
(https://i761.photobucket.com/albums/xx251/carlarmoore/barns/garage-cabinbarn_zpsd937c9b2.jpg) (http://countryplans.com/user/carlarmoore/media/barns/garage-cabinbarn_zpsd937c9b2.jpg.html)
.From what I already know it is important to have some full sheets of sheathing on the exterior. That becomes a braced wall and is usually osb in a cabin. I'm told some metal panels have a similar structural grading, some don't. With the pole wall framed to provide a nailing surface the braced wall sections make the wall very stiff as a group. If we push in the direction along the wall it will take extraordinary force to distort the wall or displace the posts. You could still cause the wall to lean and perhaps displace the posts if you pushed against the face of the wall, not the edge.
The little horse barn is almost all braced wall, except for the front. But the front has those upper panels which must be providing some of the same bracing across the front.
What I've read says that much of the strength of a pole building comes from all the parts working in concert. The tall poles become great anchors when installed with an anchoring system. The wall panels on all four walls resist the sideways wind forces. A well done roof will add more stiffness or strength. Add a floor and we add more stiffness. Does that not make sense? It is a unit. Cut the poles off and stack the building on top and the unit is changed. The box on top may still be rigid but the total is changed.
If I take a corrugated cardboard box and cut the top and bottom off I have four walls of a model building. Then if I stick knitting needles vertically through the corrugates and into the ground I simulate the structure of a pole barn. If I also stick a single needle in the ground I can compare the box to the single pole or needle. This is assuming the dirt was competent (I do like that expression ) and is not muck or some other undesirable material. Of course if the dirt was muck the single tree would be even easier to topple.
I know that my wooden fence was much sturdier in the corners where the north-south line turned 90 degrees into the east-west line. Twenty feet down the back line I could easily shake it but not so at the corner. In fact twenty feet down the line was where a big section blew out in a wind storm. The corners stood though.
The one thing I'm not certain of is how to put a floor in pole building, other than using a concrete slab. I could see a slab being a good floor. I've had homes like that before. There must be a good way to construct a raised wood floor but what I was reading was talking about barns, some with dirt floors, not homes and didn't cross that line. I did come across a picture showing a wood floor, but no explanation. Here it is.
(https://i761.photobucket.com/albums/xx251/carlarmoore/barns/barn-w-floor_zps08895c74.jpg) (http://countryplans.com/user/carlarmoore/media/barns/barn-w-floor_zps08895c74.jpg.html)
I also found what I think is a good illustration of the footing for a pole barn.
(https://i761.photobucket.com/albums/xx251/carlarmoore/barns/anchored_zpsef24bd11.jpg) (http://countryplans.com/user/carlarmoore/media/barns/anchored_zpsef24bd11.jpg.html)
I thought it was of interest to see that a pole could be built up just as I've seen beams built up. But then I do remember someone pointing out that a pole or a column is just a beam stood on end.
And I see the rebar through the post more or less as your drawing shows. That anchors the post in the concrete collar at the bottom of the hole.
An analogy popped into my head. :D When my kids were young I made some stilts for them. I thought they were safer than skateboards. I used 2x2's and screwed on some wood pieces to stand on. As they became more proficient I raised the blocks up the legs. I could have added lengths of 2x2 at the lower end. Would that have been strong enough? As it was we got to a point where a knot in the 2x2 weakened the leg enough that the lower end broke off. That was when we discovered arms can be broken falling off stilts as easily as falling off a skateboard. But we also learned how we needed "footings" on the bottom to keep from sinking into the wet lawn.
A bit of a thread drift here, a hijack! Thinking out loud and looking for input from anyone - - -
If a person did want to base a cabin design on a post frame system and if they wanted to sheath the walls with osb like a normal stick built cabin, would it be okay to frame between the poles instead of using the horizontal girts outside the poles. That might make finishing the interior easier. I realize the vertical spacing could be a problem to make the panel widths work out. ???
Finalized the basic detailed framing tonight. Windows and doors and door framing details come next. Using "Sketch up" for these models as it allows me to create 3D models of each element and build it as if I was on site building it. This will give you some idea of the loft dimensions as well. Agree the prebuilt cabins are very hot they also do not have any kind of decent ventilation.
(http://www.autumnoakskennel.net/gallery/content/pictures1/Cabin%20Plans/FramingDetail3.jpg)
(http://www.autumnoakskennel.net/gallery/content/pictures1/Cabin%20Plans/FramingDetail4.jpg)
(http://www.autumnoakskennel.net/gallery/content/pictures1/Cabin%20Plans/FramingDetail2.jpg)
(http://www.autumnoakskennel.net/gallery/content/pictures1/Cabin%20Plans/FramingDetail.jpg)
Quote from: Carla_M on May 01, 2013, 08:46:52 PM
I knew I didn't take enough time to explain my thought process. Some of my own analogies go wide of the mark. I think this one misses to a large degree as well if I have thought this out correctly. I'll try to explain why. There are a few things that came to mind.
First of all though, I want to say I've seen pushing over 70 foot pines and firs when clearing to make a new road. It's pretty awesome to see how easy the trees go over. But that's pushing on one tree at a time, not many trees that are tied together as they are, or should be, in a building.
1. I don't think you can compare pushing over a whole tree with the push point far up the trunk to pushing over a cut off stump where you are pushing lower down, like 5 feet above ground level. Yes the 5 foot length will be more difficult. But if our planned cabin was built on stumps or piers, the fair comparison would be to nail the cut off tree trunk to the stump, raise the bucket and then push at the same upper level as before and see what happens. A cabin on short piers is basically nailed to the tops of the short piers. The pole structure has the post running through the wall from roof down to the bottom and the footing. I see that as a big difference.
2. Trees have a root system that can be quite complex. I'm not sure it is fair to compare that to a timber stuck in the ground even if there is concrete on the lower end. A test measuring the forces required would make for an interesting article.
3. The pole barns I looked at all had wall panels spanning the distances between poles, just like you'd have in a horse barn or a cabin. That ties the poles all together where they act as a team not individuals. Like this one.
(https://i761.photobucket.com/albums/xx251/carlarmoore/barns/horsebarn_zps0f98c090.jpg) (http://countryplans.com/user/carlarmoore/media/barns/horsebarn_zps0f98c090.jpg.html)
Or this one that I can easily imagine could be a cabin I could live with.
(https://i761.photobucket.com/albums/xx251/carlarmoore/barns/garage-cabinbarn_zpsd937c9b2.jpg) (http://countryplans.com/user/carlarmoore/media/barns/garage-cabinbarn_zpsd937c9b2.jpg.html)
.From what I already know it is important to have some full sheets of sheathing on the exterior. That becomes a braced wall and is usually osb in a cabin. I'm told some metal panels have a similar structural grading, some don't. With the pole wall framed to provide a nailing surface the braced wall sections make the wall very stiff as a group. If we push in the direction along the wall it will take extraordinary force to distort the wall or displace the posts. You could still cause the wall to lean and perhaps displace the posts if you pushed against the face of the wall, not the edge.
The little horse barn is almost all braced wall, except for the front. But the front has those upper panels which must be providing some of the same bracing across the front.
What I've read says that much of the strength of a pole building comes from all the parts working in concert. The tall poles become great anchors when installed with an anchoring system. The wall panels on all four walls resist the sideways wind forces. A well done roof will add more stiffness or strength. Add a floor and we add more stiffness. Does that not make sense? It is a unit. Cut the poles off and stack the building on top and the unit is changed. The box on top may still be rigid but the total is changed.
If I take a corrugated cardboard box and cut the top and bottom off I have four walls of a model building. Then if I stick knitting needles vertically through the corrugates and into the ground I simulate the structure of a pole barn. If I also stick a single needle in the ground I can compare the box to the single pole or needle. This is assuming the dirt was competent (I do like that expression ) and is not muck or some other undesirable material. Of course if the dirt was muck the single tree would be even easier to topple.
I know that my wooden fence was much sturdier in the corners where the north-south line turned 90 degrees into the east-west line. Twenty feet down the back line I could easily shake it but not so at the corner. In fact twenty feet down the line was where a big section blew out in a wind storm. The corners stood though.
The one thing I'm not certain of is how to put a floor in pole building, other than using a concrete slab. I could see a slab being a good floor. I've had homes like that before. There must be a good way to construct a raised wood floor but what I was reading was talking about barns, some with dirt floors, not homes and didn't cross that line. I did come across a picture showing a wood floor, but no explanation. Here it is.
(https://i761.photobucket.com/albums/xx251/carlarmoore/barns/barn-w-floor_zps08895c74.jpg) (http://countryplans.com/user/carlarmoore/media/barns/barn-w-floor_zps08895c74.jpg.html)
I also found what I think is a good illustration of the footing for a pole barn.
(https://i761.photobucket.com/albums/xx251/carlarmoore/barns/anchored_zpsef24bd11.jpg) (http://countryplans.com/user/carlarmoore/media/barns/anchored_zpsef24bd11.jpg.html)
I thought it was of interest to see that a pole could be built up just as I've seen beams built up. But then I do remember someone pointing out that a pole or a column is just a beam stood on end.
And I see the rebar through the post more or less as your drawing shows. That anchors the post in the concrete collar at the bottom of the hole.
An analogy popped into my head. :D When my kids were young I made some stilts for them. I thought they were safer than skateboards. I used 2x2's and screwed on some wood pieces to stand on. As they became more proficient I raised the blocks up the legs. I could have added lengths of 2x2 at the lower end. Would that have been strong enough? As it was we got to a point where a knot in the 2x2 weakened the leg enough that the lower end broke off. That was when we discovered arms can be broken falling off stilts as easily as falling off a skateboard. But we also learned how we needed "footings" on the bottom to keep from sinking into the wet lawn.
The final building build is a good description of how I am building the barns the cabin will be lower to the ground and have traditional house framing on the sub floor.
Made a video of the design update.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2PgLn-3tJM&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2PgLn-3tJM&feature=youtu.be)
I don't know if you answered this. I tried to keep up with the posts. I don't see any separate girder from the floor framing. What is the size/span of the girders?
Every thing is 16" OC Floor Joist ( Second Floor ) and Rafters. The 1st floor will be a poured foundation actually pouring the slab on top the footing walls tomorrow I will have pictures when I get back of the progress. The girders are 2x12 across 16", they will be sitting on the top plate 5" overlap with the exterior wall attached to the top plate and the rafter beam, hurricane strapped as well. Half of the 32 foot distance is also sitting on an interior 2x4 wall as well. The trusses will all be 2x6. The ground floor girders went away since we poured the foundation.
So ground is broke I actually accomplished a great deal before todays rain.
So a little walk through.
(http://www.autumnoakskennel.net/gallery/content/pictures1/Cabin%20Plans/20130525%20Farm%20007.jpg)
We brought the concert across the dam we have had a few days of dry, so the footing went in set up and then the footing walls went up. The final day we poured the slab. As you can see the truck compressed the gravel pretty good but it did not cause any issues. This dam is a little less than a year old. This is the smaller what I call the duck pond as it is only 4 feet deep. and was designed more for the purpse of getting us a across a very steep valley so I could move farm equipment over the area without worrying about a roll over.
So we put in the on site sewage lagoon. Had it inspected on Friday it passed so we were free and clear to start the rest of the building, in this area that was the only building inspection. Does not mean we will not follow code we just have no additional inspections required.
Lagoons are prevalent in this area since we have a heavy clay once you get past 24". As I have pointed out in this area dig a hole it will fill up with water and stay that way.
(http://www.autumnoakskennel.net/gallery/content/pictures1/Cabin%20Plans/20130525%20Farm%20008.jpg)
(http://www.autumnoakskennel.net/gallery/content/pictures1/Cabin%20Plans/20130525%20Farm%20010.jpg)
(http://www.autumnoakskennel.net/gallery/content/pictures1/Cabin%20Plans/20130525%20Farm%20012.jpg)
So the biggest question I get about these - Do they smell, not if they are built in the right place and sized for the buildings they are supporting. This is a 30' x 30' lagoon designed to support a 1 or 2 bedroom home.
This is a great resource for describing how they are to be built and guidance in Missouri. http://extension.missouri.edu/p/WQ402
.... and yes I put two cleanouts in even though only one is required. There will actually be three if you count the one in the house.
If I ever have to snake the pipe I prefer snaking more than 50' at a time. This is all Schedule 40 pipe.
Now to the pad so I have a local contractor I use put the footing and foundation in and he did that before I arrived so I did not get to take any pictures of those two elements. But I was there for the pad as I had to layout plumbing for them.
(http://www.autumnoakskennel.net/gallery/content/pictures1/Cabin%20Plans/20130525%20Farm%20015.jpg)
So this is the framed up pad before plumbing layout. There is rebar out of the foundation and rebar driven in the ground center line east to west every 8 feet.
(http://www.autumnoakskennel.net/gallery/content/pictures1/Cabin%20Plans/20130525%20Farm%20018.jpg)
From the southwest looking northeast. Again you can see the main sewage line sticking out of the ground. We dug out some gravel and put in the plumbing for the toilet, bath and vent stack. There is also a conduit run so the waterline can be run into the house later.
(http://www.autumnoakskennel.net/gallery/content/pictures1/Cabin%20Plans/20130525%20Farm%20029.jpg)
Plumbing in place and concrete is poured. Here you see the bath plumbed immediate north is the toilet 15" on center from the edge of the tub. and 12 1/2" from the wall. Keep this in mind the code calls fro 12" from the wall it means finished wall to make sure you measure for a finished wall. I measure 12 1/2" from an unfinished stud wall and I have 1/2" in finish material to work with. The pipe to the right of the toilet is the vent stack which will run inside of a 2 x 6 non weight bearing wall. It will be a 3" dry vent running to the exterior of the building, however it will not run out of the roof. Also worth noting none of my drains are more than 6 feet from the main vent, and do not require secondary venting, however I will be putting secondary venting on each of them, each sink will have secondary wet venting.
(http://www.autumnoakskennel.net/gallery/content/pictures1/Cabin%20Plans/20130525%20Farm%20022.jpg)
Finished slap with J bolts installed, framing starts on Sunday. ;) Guess I better go figure out where the windows are going to go. Questions, suggestions or comments please let me know. This is six bag mix about 4,000 psi with rebar, six inches thick. You can drive a truck over it. ;)
Oh since someone is going to ask. Lagoon, flat work turn key cost what you see finished here $5,200 labor, materials, permits and inspection's. $3,200 of the $5,200 in concert and gravel. $900 for the lagoon, trenching and pipe to the cabin. The rest in permits, inspection, rebar, plumbing materials and good old American labor.