CountryPlans Forum

Many past discussions on insulating attic's touched on several points;
Position of vapor barrier, insulation material, i.e., blown-in, rolled, faced and non-faced fiberglass, plastic reflector, foam board, etc.

I'm going to be dealing with a loft, having rafters, boards, tar paper and roofing as the only thing, between me and the elements. I'm sure many of you have dealt/ or will deal w/ this issue.
So am looking for ideas.

Roof boards are rough-cut semi green pine.
Rafters are full 2X6, same material.  
Both have been air-drying in place for 1-1/2 years now.
Was told to allow them to dry out to prevent mold, rotting etc.

So far the cabin has been used as a get-away, hunting etc, but plans are to retire there.
Insulation at this time isn't a factor, as the wood stove will keep it toasty at least down to 5 degrees so far.
Slept w/ window-cracked open.

Will be looking to partially or completely close in the rafters for future conservation reasons.

So far the majority of cabins like this, have just stuffed in rolled insulation into the spaces between the rafters and covered it w/ plywood or car-siding (was an option from the builder, but an expensive one). Jury is still out as to whether the roof boards would dry out enough, thus cutting down on mold, rotting out and critters making a home in this space.

My thought process was, to begin with, forgo the "factory installed insulation", and allow the wood to dry then enclose it later.
As the spaces between the rafters create an allusion of added headroom, head bumping does happen, so would like to keep some of that room.
I thought about just installing ridge foam board, 1" or 1-1/4" (or more) then covering with plywood or car-siding in the spaces between the rafters so as to only take up 2" or so. This would be very labor intensive.
The other option I am considering is partially covering the opening between the rafters and using blown in foam.

http://doityourself.com/insulate/foamandfoamboardinsulation.htm


Any thoughts?

I would think that if you want to live there (retire), the building would be heated year round as opposed to a hunting cabin (heated only during the hunting season).  This year round heating would eventually require proper attic insulation.  Not sure what R value you are trying to acheive but I would not think that 1 inch foam would do it for you.  I would guess that you would want to vent the rafters to the ridge and install a vent if not already there.  You would then probably cover up the rafters with some drywall or T
& G boards.  

There may also be specific R-value codes that you would have to adhere to anyways if you were to permanently live there.

Just my thoughts...

Hunter...interesting...I've been tossing this around for several months myself, opted on the foam between the rafters, spaced away from the top osb with additional wood strips for air space, and vented at the bottom sections near eaves/soffets, or whatever. No ridge board, so air passes from one side to the other. So far, no probs that I can see. Keep us posted as to how you do it. I've never built a house before, so I was on my own here, no codes or inspections needed, not in city limits. It gets a tad chilly during the night when the wood stove shuts down, but once I fire it, it warms up in there. But I don't live in it full-time, not yet...but prob will by next cold season, still have a ways to go, and going at it alone.

Quotebut prob will by next cold season, still have a ways to go, and going at it alone.

  JB hey your not going it alone , [highlight]we're here[/highlight] , we can help , with free advice :)

    Remember [highlight]sometimes[/highlight] ya get what ya pay for  ;)

 Just watch out for Glenn, he'll be sending ya under ground  ;D

Both John and JB are on the right track in my opinion. Foam insulation will cost more but will give you a decent R-value in a 2x6 rafter and still leave room for 1" of ventilation under the roof sheathing. A ridge vent strip combined with soffit or vented blocking at the wall line will allow any trapped moisture (and summer heat buildup) to vent out the ridge.

When you live there year round you will get tired of chopping and feeding all that wood into the stove!

Well guys, seems that the jury is in favor of at least 1" gap at the roof, ridge and eve vents. Then foam over something (?) 2 or 3 inches, then enclose the bottom with what ever room is left?
Kinda thought that that would be the best anyway.
Suggestions on what to contain the foam with?

Friction fit can work well with some foams. At the bottom (inside) slice that will face the air gap and roof sheathing you might want to install a foil faced foamboard like Thermax as this will serve as a reflective barrier to radiated summer heat back out. This is also dense enough to friction fit.

Others have cut simple 1" stops and tacked them to the sides of the rafters and then stapled the foam (toenailed kinda) into the rafters.

specialized installer installed foam?  

Here's a soy-based one, that, if one can take their propaganda at face value, that answers most of my concerns with the category--water-blown, not the stuff that may have put me in the hospital for five days once, etc.

Contacted them by email, including my phone number, took off for the 2nd nearest bookstore (only 80 miles away), may have passed by the nearest installer's house as he was trying to call me.  Of course, he is the only installer in the state of Tennessee.  When I called him the next day--company had also emailed me with his information--we had a nice talk, didn't get to price.

http://www.biobased.net/index.php

John...I'm ALREADY TIRED of feeding that stove day after day after day !!! But, alas, we must do what we have to do ! And I've done it before. Used to live in Jackson Hole, Wyoming. The stove there was my only source of heat. And since its February,only have a short time to go. Was nice here the other day, went fishing here where my little cabin is, right on the lake...didn't catch anything...I think it was the pole... ::)

I just came home from a warm tropical climate to 18º F mornings. Chop, chop chop...

Still love my little wood stove, but the love affair won't last forever!  :-*

I'm sitting inside the cabin in front of the 1920 Round Oak wood stove - 32.7 outside- 7 inches of snow on the ground and growing - toasty in here-- wood was cut last fall - nice dry oak.  Nice place to back up to and toast your buns. :)

I know this snow belongs to someone else.  Would you please come and get it. :-/

Quote
I know this snow belongs to someone else.  Would you please come and get it. :-/

   Sent just to you from our Canadian friends  :) We just got cold weather no snow yet :(

 (https://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/feb181.jpg)

 Come on Glenn , PHOTOS >:( That RV storage deal must look  8-) covered with light snow  :)

 PEG

Now you got me in trouble, PEG.  The wife is making me go out and take a picture for you. :-/

I already took some of the rest of the place but didn't want to go clear out there because my feet will get cold.

Awright-----here I go :(

 ;D   8-) feet put ya boots on [highlight] first[/highlight] ya cave man ::)  Thanks  :) PEG

 I just discovered our fountain BROKE :( I figured if I just kept the pump on it would be ok but as Scotty once said " The pressures to grrete Captin , she'll never hold !"

 (https://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/feb191.jpg)

 PEG

Aye Captain PEG - another Star Trek fan I see.

Here are your pictures of the snow - a bit delayed due to the fact that I figured I better snowplow a mile of road or may not get to work tomorrow.  Did it the hard way with a 2 wheel drive skip loader and Gannon scraper.  16% grades in places so it was a fun ride.

(https://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d184/glennkangiser/8bacscd.jpg)

Ended up with about 9" today.

(https://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d184/glennkangiser/5a7escd.jpg)

Sheba was fascinated with the snow

(https://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d184/glennkangiser/adb0scd.jpg)

I layed down in the dirt to get this one for you PEG.

Here's a new album with a bunch more pix.  Sorry -no captions

 Snow pics -and others (http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/glennkangiser/album?.dir=/9e17&.src=ph)

 Very nice  :) I thought maybe you fell down and couldn't get up , it took ya so long ;)  

What kind of trees are those looking out the arch window , Garry oaks ??
 
  Thanks BTW .

 Ya know what cracks me up is in one of the next generation series , Scotty comes to visit and Laforge tells Picard the truth about a repair time and Scotty sez ,  "Aye lad , ya dinot teel um the truthhh di ya !"

He'd been fuddgin the times to repair to  Kirk all those years  ;D

PEG

Fell down and I can't get up??? Depends, PEG, Depends.

The oaks are Blue Oaks - in the White Oak family I believe - Occur in the foothills from about 1000 to 4000 feet elevation I think.

Blue Oak (http://www.blueplanetbiomes.org/blue_oak.htm)

Our time around here is like that- minutes turn to hours hours to days -and on and on.  No wonder I never get anything done. :-/

I layed on the ground to take the picture through the window because standing up my tractor showed.  Trees looked better anyway. :)

Hunter,

If I have the correct image of your existing shelter, I would suggest you consider insulating on the outside.

Two layers of whatever thickness foam boards glued in-place, staggered so the board joints won't coincide ... then up-down furring strips, screwed or nailed thru to the rafters ... then cross-purlins to support metal roofing.

Foam is kinda expensive.  But if fairly well protected, its performance seems to last the longest of all insulations.

Glenn,

Is that an "A Model" Ford in the background?

It's a 1926 Dodge Brothers Sedan.  Restored to original - medium fair job.  That is what the garage is being built for.  I don't currently have too many good pictures of it.  Here are a couple with a clue of what it looks like.

(https://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d184/glennkangiser/a79fscd.jpg)

(https://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d184/glennkangiser/7c9cscd.jpg)

I also have a 1919 Dodge Brothers Roadster - poor original restoration -- I will get that up here after the garage is done.  Here is a pretty cherry one from the web - mine is black -fairly rough.

(https://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d184/glennkangiser/1919_Dodge_Model_Four_Roadster.jpg)
Picture had trouble loading but should give the idea.  Pancho Villa died in the same year and model - probably shot to death by his own people--Pershing and  Patton failed to  get him.

Interesting story of Pancho and his 1919 Dodge Roadster getting shot 150 times in 2 minutes.

In Pursuit of Pancho Villa (http://www.hsgng.org/pages/pancho.htm)

Both cars are drivable - both need water pump repairs - '26 needs gas tank cleaned out.  I have pump parts but havent taken time to repair them yet.

 Glenn I thought they looked like our garry oaks up here, also a white oak.


   http://www.for.gov.bc.ca/hfd/library/documents/treebook/garryoak.htm

 Very heavy wood , not good for lumber ,IMO. Great fire wood  :)

  Did you know barrels are made of white oak? It's not ring porus , red oak is ring porus ,so a red oak barrel would leak , while white oak does not .

 BTW I'd like to apologize to hunter63 as we sort of stole his thread , Pancho would have been proud of us .  Sorry hunter , things just sort of took a twist today :-[

PEG  

I think the original question got answered - the most important thing -- and if there are more questions please ask them -

Then after that we're OK with drifting a little.  Interesting information helps keep our members on gaurd --ready to pounce on any other question when someone else is in need --- think of it as keeping the engine idling--- and we mght even learn something we didn't expect to.  Kirk out. :)

Thanks for the Garry Oak info, PEG  It appears to be a bit taller -slightly straighter and Blue Oak acorns are about 1 1/2 inches long  and about 5/8 diameter.  Likewise can make good food.

Blue Oak similar to Garry Oak is probably not good for commercial lumber but can be used to make some great stuff on a small scale.  The only thing I have made so far of it is door handles, a latch and rustic handrails.

Here is the loft,
(https://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y139/hunter63/PICT0124.jpg)

(https://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y139/hunter63/PICT0209.jpg)

Cabin
(https://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y139/hunter63/PICT0354.jpg)
kitchen
(https://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y139/hunter63/PICT0251crop.jpg)
Woodstove

(https://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y139/hunter63/PICT0215.jpg)

Nice place Hunter :)  Is the cook stove converted to gas /propane or org. gas ?  

Ya can see insulation is needed from that outside  shot, snow melt.

 Did anyone mention a spray foam , no air space stuff?  we used it  a while back on two jobs the name escapes me right now .

Anyway nice cabin / house :) PEG

Really nice, Hunter.  I like all the real wood.  Plywood would really mess up the look in my opinion - no matter what you do to plywood it still looks like plywood but that's just me- if you like it that's great- maybe the foam with the space then real wood again?  It's probably a lot easier for me to say that since I have a sawmill sitting here.

I would guess the kitchen stove to be around the same era as ours - 1935 give or take a few years?

I really like your place!  Really cute & the views are wonderful!

I vote with JRR on this one -- insulate with foam board on the outside. As John M says you'd probably want more than an inch or two of insulation for full-time living. Yeah, it'd be a shame to tear off an almost new roof, but it would also be a shame to cover up that nice ceiling. Cutting boards to fit between would be a pain and won't look as good. Nice place!

Notice the framing of this cabin. Maybe we've been worrying too much about the outward thrust of roof loads?

If I read the photos right, there is something like a 2' to 3' high stem wall in the loft (and where the bridge is the loft does not tie the walls together). On this wall sits the low-slope rafters with no collar ties to triangulate the downward and outward forces on the rafters as the snow builds up. All this is transferred into the walls.

And the walls are something like 6x6 cut logs, correct?

PS - Now that I see the cabin look of the exposed wood, I concur on putting the foam on the outside of the roof sheathing and leaving the framing exposed on the interior. I would also go to a metal roof to cut down the snow load the roof will have to carry.

Hunter ,,,great place..... is that the catskills....near Deposit ny?

Wouldn't a log wall have much greater strength against sideways loads than a framed wall? With the log kits, the logs often have kind of a tongue and groove connection, so it's not just the top log taking the force alone. The wall would act more like a 6" deep by whatever wide beam resisting the sideways force.

Peg a couple of posts back you mentioned a spray in foam and couldn't recall the name. Was it Icynene? I used this stuff in my garage/apartment and love it. Will use it again in the house for sure. The guy that I used to install it tried to talk me into going with no ventilation in the attic at all. Says that is what they recommend. I didn't, I have soffet vents all around and a fan on thermostat control in one gabled end. Wish I had gone ventless now and plan to do so on the house. House will have sissor trusses and plan to fill them up with Icynene and then cover with pine planks.
Loved the loft and the entire cabin! And Glenn, thanks for the pics, they are super but, dang I don't know how people live in that kind of cold! (I know, it's probably dry cold so it's like being on a beach!)
Okie Bob

Yes, a ventless roof is probably the way to go (in most climates anyway) when you do a spray foam like Icynene. It does such a good job of airsealing that moisture can't get to the cold surfaces to condense.

For specific climates, check with the local installer and/or the building inspector. More and more jurisdictions are following the latest research that shows ventilation over the insulation in roofs can, in some climates, be counter productive.

I am enclosing a pic that shows of the lost joists, there is a short wall in the loft.
In some of the older models thet used flat wall logs, there was a concern on spreading, usually in the one without the double lofts. We have been keeping an eye out.
Joists are 4"x6" and the logs are 8"x8" milled in a "D" w/tongue and groove interlocks on the inside, and rebar.
(https://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y139/hunter63/PICT0126.jpg)
You can see my concern in the pic, on the insulation as the snow melted off the roof, in side the wall (heated area.)

Stove (Stewart) was built in Milwaukee, but haven't had much luck on finding information on it.

It was Nat.Gas and I converted it to propane, quite a process as the orifice had to be soldered shut, then redrilled to spec's from the National Gas Code. This is done w/  index drills and chart.
Need to find out what size the orifices were ,then look up B.T.U.'s for thet size for N.G. then use the chart to determine the new size.
Not exact, but real close.
Need to drop the burners size a couple of .001's as I am getting a slightly lazy flame. Propane holes are much smaller as it's higher pressure. More B.T.U.'s.

Cabin is located in south west Wisconsin an the Kickapoo river, on a south facing hill side, great view.

I don't like plywood either, so when it was time to frame up the bathroom, I used tongue and groove 8" carsiding, turned backwards, so as to match the walls, (looks like the flat side of the interior wall logs).

As you can imagine, mechanicals have proved to be challenging as there isn't hollow walls, except the bathroon wall, so that wall, studded in 6" studs for more room, contains then water piping, plumbing, venting etc.
There was a discussion on bathroom/kitcken sharing the common wall a while back. Anyway that is what it is.

(https://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y139/hunter63/PICT0193.jpg)


Cabin is on sonit-tubes, and blocks, was built by the Amish and trucked in, sooo, according to local /Wi. codes, that makes it a "mobil home", alot of codes don't apply.
If I put it on a basement or solid footing they would apply.
You could cut off the porch, jack it up and head on down the road.

(https://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y139/hunter63/PICT0108.jpg)

Soo, jury still out on the insulation issue, replacing the roof w/metal is a possibility, I guess asphalt shingles arn't a good choice for solar panels either, heat reasons.
At this time idea is,that the "Place" is  to be the north end of a "snow bird".
So there is some time to think this thru.

I can't imagine, with that beutiful ceiling, insulating it from the inside out.  Go without or put it on top.

Exposed plumbing or electric don't look so bad.  I like it.  The cabin looks great.  put it on the ground, pleez.

keyhole

Those Amish cabins sure are nice looking. I didn't realize that they escaped local codes by being mobiles. It looks like the loft joists span the same direction as the rafters and thus do a pretty good job of tying the walls together. Most codes would allow 4' wide areas and probably up to 8' of unsupported wall length.

I'd be surprised if you actually experienced much bowing of the walls. The weight of the logs also helps somewhat I expect.

John, It was an intresting wadding thru the in and outs of the "codes" and how you can get things done.
Example:
Because it is considered mobil, the elect needed a breaker at the pole matching the service size, but after it was inside, I could wire it up myself, have it inspected, O.K.'d then they turned me on.
Helps to have a couple of beers with the Co-oP guy on friday nite.

I did hang around (owned the land ) for 15 years before deciding to go ahead with the project, got to know a lot of local people, and there are ways of getting from here to there with out to much hassle.

Don't discuss much at that time (at the saloon), but just ask them to stop by, I need help with something.
The starting size, 16'wide by 30' long, 8' porch, installed @about 15k.

QuoteAnd Glenn, thanks for the pics, they are super but, dang I don't know how people live in that kind of cold! (I know, it's probably dry cold so it's like being on a beach!)
Okie Bob

All-right-- BoB ---
I should have known about the time I start giving people a bad time about their snow---we would get the biggest snow we've had in years.  Me and my big mouth. :-/  I had to plow over a mile of snow to be sure I could get to work Tuesday - I'm the only one on the road with big toys.  An icy or snowy road coming out of my place could very well mean going over the edge to the valley below-- the hard way.

Actually when the sun came out - even with the snow it got pretty hot, but when it went behind a cloud it got cold pretty fast.

When John was mentioning spraying insulation like Icynene (or the soy-based version) directly to the roof sheathing, would that apply if I were using a rubber roof (paint on or glue on?) as well?

(I'm thinking that there might be a few fewer flashing problems with the rubber--not planning many, but the roof may be butterflied so the whole roof acts as a gutter for rainwater collection--going to an end much the same as the one in the house in Tasmania that Jonsey found)