Government officials force farmers to slaughter their livestock. I have to be missing something here.....
http://www.naturalnews.com/035585_Michigan_farms_raids.html
I was hoping today some of our Michigan friends might weigh in on this. What a slap in the face of our civil liberties.
What is next? You may grow a garden so long as it is planted with these. That is getting to be a fact here in Idaho by the way. Talk of state approved and certified seeds especially for small growers growing for local retail. ie farmer markets and road side stands.
What is to say that you can grow apple and pear trees here but not these apple and pear trees here. Your apple and pear trees are not hybrid. They are not grafted or genetically altered. They are not growing approved root stocks. Oh by the way you are going to have to cut down your heritage species trees. Your prize strawberries are not on the safe list. Oh by the way comrade you and your seven other neighbors are now part of the Upper Prairie Cooperative comrade and you will produce what we tell you to produce. Your hand full of cattle is now the states cattle. We will allow you a 100 by 50 plot for you and your family. You can not sell, trade nor barter produce from your garden plot without state approval.
The article was a little over the top.
This is one of the most invasive species in PA right now. They have been illegal in many areas for a while. I believed they passed this as a law in PA too.
These are the Russian feral hogs for caged hunts. It has been a legal sticking issue in many states. In many states they claim they are livestock and import them under those laws. Then the release them in a fenced property for a caged hunt to shoot like game. They claim the DNR and state game commissions have no jurisdiction because they are "livestock." State legislatures and regulators have been changing that.
These are the bane of many domestic game hunters and farmers. They eat everything. They destroy habitat and native game animals. I heard on some hunting websites that the larger ones taste horrible to boot.
What is interesting is that they admit in the article that the farmers knew for 6 months. The owner broke the law and had piglets anyway in violation. No one forced him to shoot them. Rather than stand up for what they believed and challenged the law as unconstitutional, he shot the piglets when he heard law enforcement was on it's way.
His legal conclusions are bonkers and borderline criminal. "If the use of force is necessary to make a lawful and legal arrest of these criminal Michigan government agents, then such use of force is fully authorized under the United States Constitution as well as the Constitution of the State of Michigan." That sounds about as close as you can get to advocating force against a government agency.
I have a few farm animals myself. And every one of my neighbors has cows. Literally, every neighbor for likely a 25 mile radius runs cattle around me. I simply cannot envision what was described. It borders on the impossible.
There has to be more to the story.
A quick search
http://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/2011/10/deadline_passes_michigans_fera.html
The ban was in Dec. 2010. Enforcement didn't go into effect until April 2012. The farmers knew for a year and a half.
Quote from: Squirl on April 17, 2012, 01:04:26 AM
A quick search
http://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/2011/10/deadline_passes_michigans_fera.html
The ban was in Dec. 2010. Enforcement didn't go into effect until April 2012. The farmers knew for a year and a half.
That makes me feel significantly less appalled. The article that I posted played this story as though these were not feral, non-native species, and that these were basically pet pigs huddled under Charlotte's web.
I hate cage "hunts". Put these folks out of business. We are having issues with feral hogs in the Rio Grande valley, and they are coming north.
Mark Baker describes his farm and his feeder operation
Michigan has a shoot on sight law for feral pigs -- that is pigs not in confinement at a farm. Clearly his pigs are domestic not wild. Baker's pigs are not a problem except for the large feeder operations that are losing buisiness to operations like Baker's.
In another video he describes the specialty chefs that seek out his pork
Another video he lists the 'traits' of so called feral pigs. The traits are so wide as to be unenforceable
"pigs with straight tails or curly tails' etc
This another case of Fascism in America
[embed=425,349]http://youtu.be/kwD4vZmUAUQ[/embed]
more vids here
http://www.youtube.com/user/bakersgreenacres?feature=watch
The truth is somewhere in the middle of this. I honestly don't understand how Squirl can always take the Government side....but I suppose someone has to.
Feral Pigs are a problem, not just Russian Blacks (Which readily crossbreed with every other pig) but wild pigs in general. They are smart, are born pregnant and root up everything in sight.
Sheep are just as bad BTW and in many Western states, raising sheep was a real good way to meet St Peter.
It was normal for many years right up to my childhood, to allow pigs to roam free. They were branded by notching ears or other markings and most farms had a dog they used to round pigs up prior to butchering.
THE DESCENDANTS OF THIS LIVESTOCK ARE THE PROBLEM PIGS, not the imported pigs that are hunted.
This is just another case of the Government sticking their nose where it doesn't belong.
A real good way to get rid of feral pigs is to develop the land. Even pigs can't stand being around city people [rofl2]
A quote from him did not help his postion :
"Our animals don't get away. And if they do....."
So do they get away or not? Are there feral hogs in Michigan due to hogs escaping?
The hard part about this is that this is the same as many other laws. You can't tell where the escaped hogs come from, so it is easier to just ban them outright. Much like cell phone use on the road. We already have distracted driving laws in place, but they are impossible to prove. However, someone holding a cell phone makes it easy.
It is cheaper and easier to enforce this law than it is to track down, charge and convict the few bad apples who don't tend to their fences.
If your pigs are escaping then you will soon be out of buisness.
Clearly these are domestic pigs not wild as he shows walking amoung the pigs.
Another point, the feeder boars are sterilized -- can't escape and breed.
BTW my wife knows one family in Northern Michigan that was one of the domestic farm operations targeted -- not a fenced hunting operation at all.
Any breed of pig will return to a feral state much like a domestic cat will turn feral.
[embed=425,349]http://youtu.be/tOBUKrMXfGw[/embed]
Wisconsin has feral hogs too -- they are former farm domestic pigs, Durocs and Chester Whites etc raised on most farms that escaped and went feral. Not a big problem since they are shot on sight by most farmers or hunters.
If the Michigan DNR (Damn Near Russia as they are called in WI) really wanted to solve the feral hog problem all they need do is offer a $10 bounty on them.
Well, except that he said that his boar was in among the feeders.
Texas is overrun with domestic hogs gone wild.
They get out. It happens all the time. Heck, we can't keep our cows on our property, and they can't dig.
http://www.texasboars.com/articles/facts.html
Feral ?
fe·ral1 /ˈfɪərəl, ˈfɛr-/ Show Spelled[feer-uhl, fer-] Show IPA
adjective
1. existing in a natural state, as animals or plants; not domesticated or cultivated; wild.
2. having reverted to the wild state, as from domestication: a pack of feral dogs roaming the woods.
3. of or characteristic of wild animals; ferocious; brutal.
So the DNR assertion is that since these farm raised pigs 'if they escape' can become feral, they can be removed without compensation to the farmers by being defined as an invasive species.
Lets carry this further
As in definition 2 above 'if dogs escape and become feral' this fits the same set of rules of the MI DNR -- so are they going to shoot people's dogs that could become feral
what about cats that could become feral
Chickens ?
Turkeys ?
Ducks ?
There is obviously another agenda here that is not about potential animals that could become invassive or feral.
Sorry peter, I didn't exactly want to take the government side. Playing devil's advocate is always nice to flesh out details of ideas though. I don't live in Michigan and I don't know the exact wording of the regulations. I could see a challenge to the law based on whether the legislature gave the DNR jurisdiction in the area of imported breeds of certain species. The caged hunt industry is a few million dollars trade organization. I can't imagine they couldn't have hired a good lawyer to get an injunction if they even had a decent leg to stand on, but I don't know the exact details.
First and foremost I had a problem with the article. The idea that a state government can't regulate personal property or specifically breeds of animals that are imported to their state is just false. Regulation of personal property has been as old as our nation. There is only one piece of property that is constitutionally protected and that is a firearm, and it is even generally settled law that some type of regulations on that are legal. How those are passed, whether they are sufficiently vague, who has the authority to enforce etc. can come into play.
First, I don't have a lot of pity for them. I am not a fan of caged hunts to begin with, but to each their own. I think Shooter was right that the article deliberately tried to give the impression that these was a charlotte's web situation and the government was coming in with little notice to take someone's property.
There is a general civil law concept that you have the duty to mitigate damages. So if you know that you are about to be hurt in some way or you are being damaged in some way, you have the duty to limit those. ("For example, when a buyer of live lobsters breaches a contract, the seller must try to resell the lobsters. He cannot let them die and then sue the buyer for damages.") So the DNR passed the regulation in Dec. 2010. Then even in Oct. 2011, when the legislature failed to act, they gave another 6 months before even trying to enforce it. They advocated selling the breed or simply not restocking and letting the supply dwindle for years. The farmer chose not to, then cries foul because he had to shoot them instead of getting arrested. I would have had more respect if he believed the law was unjust enough and stood up for his convictions.
If the DNR agents provided false information to a judge to get a search warrant I fully agree they should be sued for civil rights violations. The facts presented in their own article doesn't support even the need for that. The fact that the farmer openly disobeyed the law after enforcement went into effect and didn't shoot his pigs, then claimed he shot them after enforcement went into effect. The fact that he was openly in violation of the law after it went into effect would seem to be more than enough, without needing false information, for any law enforcement to get a warrant for a search from a judge.
Calling for armed resistance the government over pigs is just plain nuts to me. That is where the article really loses it for me. Human life is a lot more important to me than an animals or any personal property. Illegal laws are overturned all the time in the courts. Taking up violence against individuals of the government for every law you believe is illegal, especially ones about pigs, is anarchy.
Read the summary. Feral is not the issue. The issue is that these hogs are an invasive species.
http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10371_10402-248245--,00.html
They are not keeping farmers from breeding other types of swine, although those can go feral as well. They are specifically after a narrow category of hog that is raised primarily for game ranches, and which are escaping.
I fully support anyone's right to do whatever they want on their property as long as three conditions are met:
1) No innocent parties are hurt
2) All emissions from any activity stays on the property of origin.
3) Permanent damage does not occur to the property.
I believe this ban is reasonable due to the fact that the game ranches are not capable of keeping the hogs confined.
As for the chefs? Let em eat Yorkshire!
Just to clear it up, I'm not a fan of controlled hunts of any kind. They're disgusting and should be just as illegal as Dog Fighting. That isn't the issue here though.
The fellow was raising hogs. It doesn't matter what kind because if they get loose and go feral, they're a problem. Hold him accountable after that happens.
He is crying in his beer and to be honest is a scumbag, but again, that's not the issue. Suppose and as a matter of fact, I was told I couldn't raise my own tobacco last year because I didn't have the proper permits from the State Agriculture Commission. I'm smoking it now. They were assuming I took subsidies which they could yank....I don't and very publicly thumbed my nose at them.
The Government from the county up is regulating farmers and all small businesses, right out of the picture.
As far as anarchy....is it? The pigs aren't the issue.
Peter, why would you call this man a scumbag (maybe I misinterpreted your comment)
(I like the part about the Cheboygan Sheriff charging the DNR agents with tresspass)
[embed=425,349]<object width="640" height="360"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/1Y6fe4IbDh4&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&version=3"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/1Y6fe4IbDh4&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&version=3" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="360"></embed></object>[/embed]
Quote"David Cox complied with the order, I did not."
That seems like more than enough for a search warrant.
I don't understand the obsession that law enforcement carries guns. All DNR agents in PA are armed. The most common people they arrest are convicted felons out hunting carrying firearms.
Quote"The customers questioned were there to hunt pigs."
These "farmers" are the caged hunt industry. I believe that is what makes them not likable. "just trying to make a living."
What is interesting is that throughout the movie including that as an example he admits they keep breaking the law, and don't understand why they are executing search warrants. This also comes into play about what I lecture people all the time. Watch what you post on the internet. People in the legal field call it evidence.
Quote from: Windpower on April 18, 2012, 07:03:51 AM
Peter, why would you call this man a scumbag (maybe I misinterpreted your comment)
Because he does raise those hogs for caged hunts. The fact that he sells some for food is inconsequential. If he raised Quail for controlled hunts, I'd say the same thing.
What I find interesting are certain details that they focus on. That it took agents 6 hours to search a "farm" where people go to shoot the fenced animals. I would think that should be a fact that the farmers shouldn't find outrageous. Would it be better if it was 1 acre to walk around to shoot the pigs? If it was so easy to search, then there is no real hunting at all it is just a shooting range of live animals. I would think someone would find some shame in that.
it is a little off topic, but I hate the caged hunts as well.
Many of the new "records" are coming from animals that have hormone-head antlers. They have been modified and doped to create horns.
Want a world record? How much money do you have?
The "hunters" that participate in this sort of thing are even more shameful.
I have no pity for anyone in this industry.
Quote from: peternap on April 18, 2012, 10:31:05 AM
Because he does raise those hogs for caged hunts. The fact that he sells some for food is inconsequential. If he raised Quail for controlled hunts, I'd say the same thing.
I believe you are misinformed about Baker raising hogs for caged hunts
He even made a rather disparaging remark about people that shoot animals in the woods in one of his recent vids. Something to the effect that 'I don't understand why they would do that but..'
Here is is website
http://bakersgreenacres.com/
His product from the hogs is Mangalista hogs butchered for gourmet meals and procuito hams etc.
I have not kept up on this topic other than seeing people with wildly differing opinions.
I noted peternaps comment about caged hunts and windpowers note about that not being the case. He left a url for the site, and it does look quite legit. But I also know that websites can change and content can change. So I went off to have a look at things he has put on the web in the past.
Back to September 2010.
http://web.archive.org/web/20101029142702/http://www.bakersgreenacres.com/
they go back top July 2010, and up though recent (well 2011 but good enough for the stated purposes).
There are 11 snapshots of his blog and products.
1) those are not feral pigs. I know feral pigs. I hunt them and have them on my property.
2) they plant crops for the pigs and then finish them on either corn or acorns depending on how they intend to sell the finish product. (acorn for prosuitto). No feral pig gets grain fed for slaughter.
3) They have very a specific breed of pigs, one known exactly for its fat content. again, not feral pigs.
4) They talk of harvesting animals, be it chicken and hogs. Not once did I see the word hunt.
5) They do not appear to offer hunting in any capacity, you order meat, not hunts.
6) Looks like they have been involve in something called pigstock. It's appently some Traverse City festival where they focus on exotic menus. ie, First : Michigan Mangalitsa lardo naturale .. thats not feral pig.
Another issue here is the criteria by which they are deciding on which pigs to outlaw. They wrote the law so vague, that the DNR can pretty much decide at will which farms to target. They are not outlawing one single breed. They are outlawing based on traits that can be twisted to meet just about any breed.
Quote1) Bristle-tip coloration: exhibit bristle tips that are lighter in color (e.g., white, cream, or buff) than the rest of the hair shaft.
2) Dark point coloration: exhibits "points" (i.e., distal portions of the snout, ears, legs, and tail) that are dark brown to black in coloration, and lack light-colored tips on the bristles.
3) Coat coloration: exhibit a number of coat coloration patterns: solid black, solid red / brown, black and white spotted, black and red / brown spotted.
4) Underfur: exhibit the presence of underfur that is lighter in color (e.g., smoke gray to brown) than the overlying dark brown to black bristles/guard hairs.
5) Juvenile coat pattern: exhibit striped coat patterns -- a light grayish-tan to brown base coat, with a dark brown to black spinal stripe and three to four brown irregular longitudinal stripes with dark margins along the length of the body.
6) Skeletal appearance: Structures include skull morphology, dorsal profile, and external body measurements including tail length, head-body length, hind foot length, ear length, snout length, and shoulder height.
7) Tail structure: Straight tails.
8 ) Ear structure: Erect ear structure.
9) "Other characteristics not currently known to the MDNR that are identified by the scientific community."
In Michigan you can kill feral pigs year round for free, but in 2011 there was only 283 killed. How many deer are killed every year? More than 400,000. I do not see feral pigs as being as big of an issue as the MDNR is playing it up to be, and it is definetly not an excuse to trespass on someone's property, kill off all of their livestock and throw the farmer in jail like a murderer or rapist.
Like Windpower pointed out earlier, any domesticated animal that is released into the wild can go feral. Greece is having problems with feral dogs attacking people right now. How long untill the family pet is outlawed?
Quote from: Windpower on April 18, 2012, 04:55:19 PM
I believe you are misinformed about Baker raising hogs for caged hunts
He even made a rather disparaging remark about people that shoot animals in the woods in one of his recent vids. Something to the effect that 'I don't understand why they would do that but..'
Here is is website
http://bakersgreenacres.com/
His product from the hogs is Mangalista hogs butchered for gourmet meals and procuito hams etc.
Sorry Windpower!
I haven't been able to read well and apparently not able to comprehend what I was reading, this week. ???
You are correct and I humbly remove my statements about him. I stand firm on my feelings about cage hunts and the government sticking it's nose in farming (and for that matter, damn near everything).
No apologies needed Peter
there is much spin and disinfo on this that that it is incredible
just one more instance of bureaucrats run amuck