911 calls from Trayvon Martin incident
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I wasn't there Windpower, so I can't say exactly what happened. I like the stand your ground laws. Virginia's stand your ground goes all the way back to common law.
I also know it's easy to get wrapped up in a situation that you have no other choice but to shoot someone. It happens fast and is confusing.
Training is a big part of doing it right. When that happens you shouldn't even have to think about it because it's been done and re-done over and over.
Being on the right side of it doesn't mean you win a fight. Being tougher than the other fellow is the key.
That brings me to the BIG picture. Somewhere early in life, we all program ourselves with our moral values. They don't have to follow the mainstream, they're personal. Some people have no qualms about killing someone just because they can.
I hate the idea of taking another human life and that baggage will stay with me for the rest of my days.
In this case, from what I know, there was no reason for that boy to be dead and very little reason for his killer to exist. This was not a stand your ground issue, this was senseless murder in my mind.
My belief is that somewhere about the time the neighborhood watch guy started following Trayvon he forfeited his right to the "stand your ground" defense. He didn't have to get close enough to "feel threatened". He saw a black kid he didn't know and immediately slapped an acting suspiciously label on him and everything went downhill from there.
Quote from: MountainDon on March 22, 2012, 09:06:54 AM
My belief is that somewhere about the time the neighborhood watch guy started following Trayvon he forfeited his right to the "stand your ground" defense. He didn't have to get close enough to "feel threatened". He saw a black kid he didn't know and immediately slapped an acting suspiciously label on him and everything went downhill from there.
Ditto
The fact that a teenager would be in dark clothing, in a gated community that he didn't live in, unescorted by any resident walking around in the rain, would be suspicious to me regardless of race. He was not completely sure of the individuals race when he first called 911.
When he actively pursued him while he was trying to flee, that usually crosses a different line. At that point, I would say the teenager had just as much of a right to defend himself from the threat of someone chasing him.
I wasn't there and am not in law enforcement to get a feel for the credibility of the witnesses though.
QuoteThe fact that a teenager would be in dark clothing, in a gated community that he didn't live in, unescorted by any resident walking around in the rain, would be suspicious
Whoaa!! Dark clothing makes you "guilty or suspicious"? Damn I better rethink my wardrobe; black jeans and jacket are the norm for me in town. And when our son was a teenager it was hard to find something that was
not black in his closet. He and his friends were a bunch of "shadows".
Walking in a gated community he didn't live in... ??? What, so nobody who lives in a gated community ever has visitors? ??? When I walk through a local gated community I need to be escorted? Sorry but there's something wrong with that thought process to me.
The gated communities here that I am familiar with have gates to keep vehicles that don't belong out. The people gates have no locks, no keep out signs. Just a sign asking to keep the gate closed. No guards either, just electric vehicle gates.
He was visiting his father who lived in the community as I understand it
I agree that the stand your ground laws are an important protection for lawful gun owners against agregious prosecutions by overzealous attorneys
BUT
How is someone screaming for help a threat to someone's life
I find it incomprehensible that Zimmerman is not in jail --- no evidence ?!?!? after 3 WEEKS
Quote from: MountainDon on March 22, 2012, 10:06:08 AM
Whoaa!! Dark clothing makes you "guilty or suspicious"?
Dark clothes don't make you "guilty" of anything. I never said such a thing, please don't attribute that to me. They alone, don't make anyone suspicious. Dark clothes tend make people less noticeable in the dark. When I was a teenager and was out late up to no good, we all wore dark clothes. The local kids didn't wear safety orange when causing vandalism, they wore black. My thought process comes from experience.
Yes, people in gated communities have visitors all the time. They are with usually the person they are visiting. That is why they are called visitors. That is the purpose of a gated community is to have people escorted or monitored when visiting. If you wanted just anyone walking around that didn't live there, you wouldn't have gates. I don't agree with the whole reasoning behind gated communities, that is why I don't live in one.
There is also the fact that he is a teenager. Not individually suspicious, we were all one at one time, but the courts have recognized that their brains aren't fully developed and they don't always make good rational decisions. Many activities, like vandalism, that would have gotten him punished a few months from now, he would instead be seeing a councilor.
The fact that he was walking around in the dark in the rain. The average person tries to avoid that situation.
If you break down all the factors individually, all are not suspicious . Together, they are. I try to put myself in another person's shoes. If I was in his position and I could not see the race of the individual and all those other factors were going on, I might have called the police myself.
In my neighborhood when I grew up, if you saw a teenage running around the neighborhood alone, in the dark, in the rain, dressed in black, and didn't live there, they were most likely vandalizing something and you called the police, regardless of race. I didn't even live in a gated community.
I would not have chased him with a gun. That crosses a big bright line.
Quote from: Windpower on March 22, 2012, 10:27:06 AM
How is someone screaming for help a threat to someone's life
I find it incomprehensible that Zimmerman is not in jail --- no evidence ?!?!? after 3 WEEKS
There is a lot of debate who is screaming for help. Zimmerman and other witnesses claim it was him not Martin. That will be up to a grand jury to decide.
The wheels of justice turn slowly. 3 - weeks is not much time to line up a grand jury and present witnesses and testimony. A murder charge is a huge deal. Falsely accusing someone would cost the county big $$$. As long as they make a fair presentation to a grand jury and give Zimmerman a chance to testify, if he is indicted they have an iron clad defense of wrongful prosecution if he is found not guilty. Right now this is all being tried by public media, which is selective and biased at best. It is their job to sell a story, not present a true and complete picture. I have been involved in a lot of high profile media cases, what is reported and what actually is considered credible evidence are usually far apart.
I have heard bits and pieces about this event this week. I don't know what happened, only the two people involved know what happened and one of them is dead. From what I have gathered, this neighborhood watch guy has been quite involved in his neighborhood calling the cops repeatedly over the last year because the neighborhood has had a rash of robberies. The cops routinely take hours to get there and the thiefs continue to get away. So he clearly went overboard and took things into his own hands.
As for whether or not he should have followed someone, there is no law against that. There also is no law against self defense. I think the most logical chain of events is that he went to confront this kid and the kid defended himself and a struggle happened. During the struggle the neighborhood watch guy felt threatened enough to shoot the young man. This young man was 6'2" and like 150 pounds. He was athletic, I don't see how he would have any trouble avoiding (outrunning) the overweight man who was following him. So he probably didn't run. They fought, and this is not disputed. Neighborhood watch guy shoots him during the fight.
No winners here, not the boy, not the shooter, no ones families that are connected, and certainly not the community.
* Yes, I tend to notice suspicious folks in my neighborhood. It doesn't make them guilty, it means you be aware of your surroundings and when something sticks out, you trust your instincts. I don't think anyone is saying that teenagers wearing dark clothes are criminals. I am not saying you should seek out trouble or go around interrogating or harassing people for no reason, or dial 9-1 and wait for something to happen...
"Zimmerman and other witnesses claim it was him not Martin."
The screaming abruptly stops when shot is fired --- I think that settles who was screaming for help
You're gonna tell be this 250 pound self proclaimed community guardian armed with his 9 mm pistol was screaming for help
you embarass your self, Squirl
I didn't write I believed him. Again attributing views to me I did not express. I wrote that was a defense by him and others, and it is not up to me to decide. Almost no reputable news agency will conclusively state that it was Martin, because they are afraid if they are wrong. In the end it will be up to a jury of his peers.
Actually I could see a 250 lb wannabe with a gun screaming and crying when push came to shove. I have seen many big powerful bullies turn to terrified children when someone fights back. I guess you never stood up to many bullies. Like I said earlier, I don't know any of the individuals and I don't know what happened. We are all speculating.
QuoteMy thought process comes from experience.
My thought process on the dark clothing statement comes from experience as well. My experience of having a closet full of dark clothing; only teo pair of light colored pants out of about a dozen total. And a selection of jackets and outerqear that are black, charcoal or predominantly dark colors. I walk around in them all the time and I do not engage in suspicious activities. So I take exception with drawing any conclusions about the character, legal or illegal intent, of anyone person wearing dark clothes.
Back at the beginning of October there I was, alternately running and walking through the rain, wearing a hooded jacket pulled over my head. Started a mile and a half from my home. Suspicious? Maybe. :-\ :-\ Or maybe I was running / walking alternately through the rain as I had left my car at the service center and was walking home when it began to rain. So I ran some and walked some because the jacket wasn't a real rain jacket and I didn't want to be soaked. If I had thought of taking the rain jacket instead I'd of been walking the whole distance. Very suspicious behavior.
The original statement I contested was that someone in dark clothing was a suspicious character. At least that was/is how I read the statement. If it was impossible initially to tell Trayvon was black it was also probably impossible to tell he was a teenager.
As far as telling his age, I don't know much about Martin's size or demeanor. He was clearly baby faced from the pictures and of lighter complexion. He could have easily have been confused with Hispanic as much as black in low light, which Zimmerman is also. He clearly answers with "I think black" when the dispatcher asks him if Martin is white, hispanic, or black. Only later in the call when he gets closer does he confirm his previous answer. It can be confusing. I have friends who are Caribbean who are both black and hispanic, which some of Zimmerman's relatives are also and is not uncommon to see in Florida.
Maybe he couldn't tell his age. I think I might as likely call the police if it was an adult. In situations where and adult is wandering around a gated community, in the dark, in dark clothes and he doesn't live there and a crime occurs, like hurting a child, then everyone is crying later that someone should have called the police. Again, the dark clothes comment is because if someone wanted to commit a crime under the cover of darkness, they are going to wear darker clothes vs. fluorescent orange. Dark clothing doesn't make anyone guilty of having committed a crime.
Quote from: Squirl on March 22, 2012, 01:21:29 PM
As far as telling his age, I don't know much about Martin's size or demeanor. He was clearly baby faced from the pictures and of lighter complexion. He could have easily have been confused with Hispanic as much as black in low light, which Zimmerman is also. He clearly answers with "I think black" when the dispatcher asks him if Martin is white, hispanic, or black. Only later in the call when he gets closer does he confirm his previous answer. It can be confusing. I have friends who are Caribbean who are both black and hispanic, which some of Zimmerman's relatives are also and is not uncommon to see in Florida.
Maybe he couldn't tell his age. I think I might as likely call the police if it was an adult. In situations where and adult is wandering around a gated community, in the dark, in dark clothes and he doesn't live there and a crime occurs, like hurting a child, then everyone is crying later that someone should have called the police. Again, the dark clothes comment is because if someone wanted to commit a crime under the cover of darkness, they are going to wear darker clothes vs. fluorescent orange. Dark clothing doesn't make anyone guilty of having committed a crime.
And just what are the police going to do Squirl? He wasn't doing anything illegal and there was no clear and articulatible suspicion that he had committed a crime. Sure they can "ASK" him, but if he tells them to FO, as most people would, that's the end of it unless the cop wants to donate his pension to the suspect!
Exactly Peter. No crime, no problems, it wasn't Zimmerman's job. If you think someone looks suspicious and might try to commit or have committed a crime you let the people know who's job it is to investigate. If Martin ran from the cops, that is a crime. Running from Zimmerman, not a crime. I will go back to my example earlier, if a kid was running around in the neighborhood I grew up in alone, in the dark, in the rain, dressed in black, and didn't live there, a cop would ask him who he was, what he was doing, and where he was going. The police would look to see if he had spray paint, eggs, toilet paper, broken glass shards on him, or any other thing noticeable. They would get the person's name and if there were any crimes in the vicinity that night, that person would be suspect #1 if he didn't have a good explanation. Again, just because I say suspect, doesn't mean he is guilty of anything. There is a big difference between being a suspect and a criminal. That person does have the right to tell the police to FO, but he usually has to at least give his name, sometimes identifying information, and usually his parent's name if he is under 18. Also the fact that the police talk to someone in person and gets his name would normally be enough to prevent someone considering criminal behavior that night.
As was the information in this, if Zimmermann stayed in his car and a clearly marked police officer walked up to Martin, I would be willing to bet things would have been a lot different. As long as Martin acted like the good kid that everyone in the media is describing, they would probably helped the kid get home in an unfamiliar area, and told Zimmermann to shove it.
When during the dispatch call Zimmermann stated, "these a**holes always get away," and stated chasing him, it sounded he had taken it upon himself to do someone else job.
Quote from: Squirl on March 22, 2012, 04:07:44 PM
Exactly Peter. No crime, no problems, it wasn't Zimmerman's job. If you think someone looks suspicious and might try to commit or have committed a crime you let the people know who's job it is to investigate. If Martin ran from the cops, that is a crime. Running from Zimmerman, not a crime. I will go back to my example earlier, if a kid was running around in the neighborhood I grew up in alone, in the dark, in the rain, dressed in black, and didn't live there, a cop would ask him who he was, what he was doing, and where he was going. The police would look to see if he had spray paint, eggs, toilet paper, broken glass shards on him, or any other thing noticeable. They would get the person's name and if there were any crimes in the vicinity that night, that person would be suspect #1 if he didn't have a good explanation. Again, just because I say suspect, doesn't mean he is guilty of anything. There is a big difference between being a suspect and a criminal. That person does have the right to tell the police to FO, but he usually has to at least give his name, sometimes identifying information, and usually his parent's name if he is under 18. Also the fact that the police talk to someone in person and gets his name would normally be enough to prevent someone considering criminal behavior that night.
As was the information in this, if Zimmermann stayed in his car and a clearly marked police officer walked up to Martin, I would be willing to bet things would have been a lot different. As long as Martin acted like the good kid that everyone in the media is describing, they would probably helped the kid get home in an unfamiliar area, and told Zimmermann to shove it.
When during the dispatch call Zimmermann stated, "these a**holes always get away," and stated chasing him, it sounded he had taken it upon himself to do someone else job.
Then we agree on everything....except that it's illegal to run from the police. Not in Va. unless you're in a vehicle or that he would have given his name. No one ever answers those contact card questions.
I really hope they Bar B Q Zimmerman. We are working on codifying the common law Castle Doctrine we enjoy. This case will make bringing a bill before next years General Assembly....dangerous.
Peter,
I thought VA had a stop and identify law.
I am not expert in Florida law, but it appears they would have that scenario covered in one statute.
QuoteAmong the circumstances which may be considered in determining whether such alarm or immediate concern is warranted is the fact that the person takes flight upon appearance of a law enforcement officer, refuses to identify himself or herself, or manifestly endeavors to conceal himself or herself or any object.
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0800-0899/0856/Sections/0856.021.html
It looks like in Florida, even if you are "in a place, at a time or in a manner not usual for law-abiding individuals", if you run from the police or don't identify and explain yourself, it is a misdemeanor.
Sorry for the thread drift, I enjoy talking about the law and legal scenarios. This is for discussion purposes only and not legal advice.
Quote from: Squirl on March 23, 2012, 09:13:55 AM
Peter,
I thought VA had a stop and identify law.
No and we fought hard to keep it off the books. A few localities have one on their local laws but as a Commonwealth we fall under the Dillon rule ad they are unenforceable unless the GA gives them the authority, which they won't if I have anything to do with it.
What we do have, although very few cops are smart enough to know it, is the old common law that requires anyone asked after dark, to state their name and resident town. There's no requirement to show ID (They hadn't invented it then ;D)
I am not expert in Florida law, but it appears they would have that scenario covered in one statute.
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0800-0899/0856/Sections/0856.021.html
It looks like in Florida, even if you are "in a place, at a time or in a manner not usual for law-abiding individuals", if you run from the police or don't identify and explain yourself, it is a misdemeanor.
Doesn't surprise me! I have enough trouble keeping up with Va law :-\
Sorry for the thread drift, I enjoy talking about the law and legal scenarios. This is for discussion purposes only and not legal advice.
Me too!
I have followed this story with interest for the last several weeks and am surprised that no one here has really broached the racial aspect involved in this issue.
After calling 911 this self proclaimed "cop" was told to stop pursuit, advice which he ignored, and then proceeded to run down and shoot an unarmed youth. Were the races of these individuals reversed I would be shocked had there not been an arrest by now.
We are pretty good to jumping to conclusions.
Net rumor has it that there is a witness supporting the claim that Zimmerman was attacked.
I don't think anyone should be Bar B Q'd without a fair trial first. Only two people know for sure what happened that night.
Zimmerman made a huge mistake in following. We had a somewhat similar case here in NM. A former marine chased down someone who was trying to steal his car and shot him.
Here... watch the video too.
http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012
Maybe dug, but then would racism not still be the issue? From the evidence I have seen an African American man shooting a hispanic unarmed teen should be in the same position. He was lawfully licensed to carry a fire arm. If the question comes down to if the death was self defense, and the facts of the confrontation are not 100% clear by the police on the scene, they should bring it to the grand jury. In this country you are innocent until proven guilty. The media story has some glaring facts that they are not reporting, such as what did the police see that night that lead them not to arrest? Did they only see the race of the two characters or were there witnesses and physical evidence?
At the time the police showed up the shooter had a broken nose, a grass stained shirt and a gash on his head.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-killing-lead-prosecutor-george-zimmerman-walk/story?id=16000239
Martin, although baby faced, was a half a foot taller and more athletic than Zimmerman.
According to reports a witness told police that night that Martin was attacking Zimmerman. According to the reports Zimmerman was on the ground, beaten bloodied and screaming for help when he shot Martin. According to witnesses, they have a 911 tape with Zimmerman screaming for help before shooting.
http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012
The physical evidence and testimony from witness is enough to justify not making an arrest on the spot and letting it go to a grand jury. But that is not a good story for the news. It doesn't generate outrage. It doesn't sell papers. Unfortunately for Zimmerman, many of the racial problems for this entire country are getting heaped on to this one case.
Maybe Zimmerman is a racist, and he was racial profiling when he decided to follow Martin. Although it is detestable as human being, it is not criminal. Maybe Zimmerman wanted to follow him to yell racial epithets at Martin. Maybe he did. He would be a waste of humanity if he did, but that is not criminal. If Martin turned around and attacked him for it, and started beating Zimmerman half to death out of rage, which is an understandable human emotion but not legal justification, it is still a justifiable homicide on Zimmerman's part.
You beat me to the posting shooter.
Quote from: NM_Shooter on March 26, 2012, 09:28:17 AM
Here... watch the video too.
http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012
I don't see anything in that article to support the headline that Martin attacked Zimmerman. Zimmerman stalked Martin through the rain with the intent of preventing a "f****ing coon" from getting away. If he assaulted Martin (by grabbibng him), Martin is certainly justified in defending himself, and if Zimmerman ends up on the losing end of the tussle, it can hardly be described as Martin "attacking" Zimmerman.
Zimmerman got what was coming to him; Martin did not.
QuoteThe night of that shooting, police say there was a witness who saw it all.
If Zimmerman assaulted Martin as you have theorized and the witness
saw it all, Zimmerman would be under arrest right now.
QuoteZimmerman got what was coming to him;
So a person following a teen, possibly for racist reasons, deserves to be beaten to death?
To tell you the truth, I was waiting for that response. I expected someone to find it acceptable to respond to non-violent implications of racism, such as following someone, with violence.
To add to that, is it reasonable force to shoot someone because you're losing a fist fight...I've broken my nose a half dozen times and never shot anyone over it.
Quote from: Pox Eclipse on March 26, 2012, 11:03:54 AM
If he assaulted Martin (by grabbibng him), Martin is certainly justified in defending himself, and if Zimmerman ends up on the losing end of the tussle, it can hardly be described as Martin "attacking" Zimmerman.
Well, you know the saying...."if your Aunt had a moustache she would be your Uncle".
Speculation of what occurred has no place in determining a man's guilt.
Quote from: peternap on March 26, 2012, 02:08:51 PM
To add to that, is it reasonable force to shoot someone because you're losing a fist fight...I've broken my nose a half dozen times and never shot anyone over it.
I don't know. You tell me exactly what happened and how you know the facts. Once again, we don't know what occurred. Did Martin knock down Zimmerman from behind, begin to punch him in the face, then grab for his gun?
Consider this scenario : You were attacked from behind, knocked down, and are on the losing end of a fistfight with a younger man on top of you unrelenting in his attack. He is grabbing for your holstered gun which you currently have control of. You are in mortal fear for your life. In the last second before that gun is pried away, what is your response? I can see that as a legitimate situation in which deadly force is well justified.
Once again, I am suggesting that we not condemn or come to conclusions without knowing what the hell we are talking about.
Generally peter you are correct. If someone punches you in the nose and breaks it, you don't usually have the right to shoot him in the head or chest, although there are plenty of people killed with the first punch. Also using excessive force in self defense that results in the attacker's death is not murder.
According to Zimmerman, and implied though the articles that it was confirmed by a witness and the physical evidence, Martin was bouncing Zimmerman's head off of the concrete. That is beyond a fist fight. I can't even count how many times I have read that resulting in someone's death. The police initially could not disprove this chain of events. It will now be up to a grand jury.
I feel sorriest for the witness. If in fact he did witness something contrary to what everyone is in a fever pitch over, he will likely be attacked either verbally or physically, all because he told the truth.
ABC changed the article already. The original one that I had posted the Attorney General was saying what a bad case it was and how it would be difficult to prosecute with what they know.
Quote from: NM_Shooter on March 26, 2012, 02:26:42 PM
I don't know. You tell me exactly what happened and how you know the facts. Once again, we don't know what occurred. Did Martin knock down Zimmerman from behind, begin to punch him in the face, then grab for his gun?
Consider this scenario : You were attacked from behind, knocked down, and are on the losing end of a fistfight with a younger man on top of you unrelenting in his attack. He is grabbing for your holstered gun which you currently have control of. You are in mortal fear for your life. In the last second before that gun is pried away, what is your response? I can see that as a legitimate situation in which deadly force is well justified.
Once again, I am suggesting that we not condemn or come to conclusions without knowing what the hell we are talking about.
Unfortunately for Batman, guardian of the neighborhood, what happened after he decided to chase this kid, is unimportant!
I don't think he'll find a jury that doesn't knit a noose while hearing the arguments.
For most of us that have to wrestle with Legislators every year, especially here where I have to constantly out maneuver the Va Tech wailing wall, he ain't getting any sympathy. I hear the phrase "There will be blood in the streets" a hundred times a year and this idiot just reinforces their argument.
Quote from: peternap on March 26, 2012, 03:09:22 PM
I don't think he'll find a jury that doesn't knit a noose while hearing the arguments.
Maybe. Based on the preliminary evidence of a possible credible eye witness, I doubt you could convince 12 people beyond a reasonable doubt of murder. With even one or two dissenters, I would bet a jury would probably settle on excessive force manslaughter. What we see and what they see will be night and day different.
A lot will depend on the jury pool in the area.
I saw an interview with his lawyer today and it doesn't look like he has any rabbits to pull out of his hat. Just the self defense argument.
Judging from the reaction here, where no one really cares what happens in Florida, he's toast if the Blacks there make up a portion of the jury and the other members don't want to drag it out.
Now the sentiment may calm down if someone kills him for the Panther reward...but that won't help him any.
It's also possible the Grand Jury won't return a true bill....but that's very unusual.
Quote from: Squirl on March 26, 2012, 01:53:36 PMSo a person following a teen, possibly for racist reasons, deserves to be beaten to death?
Zimmerman died? That changes everything, doesn't it?
Quote from: Pox Eclipse on March 26, 2012, 04:28:29 PM
Zimmerman died? That changes everything, doesn't it?
Yes.....
Absolutely changes everything if he believed his life at risk. He would just need a Grand Jury to come to the same conclusion.
My prediction is that this is unlikely to go to trial, unless the prosecutor gets extreme pressure from the public. If it goes to trial, he might be found guilty of manslaughter, but nothing more. He may even be acquitted.
This story has really been developing. It seems that the initial story/video posted here doesn't follow with the witness accounts.
I was forced to take a long drive today and passed some of the time listening to AM radio- Rush, Hannity and the like. Though I full well expected it I was still somewhat grilled to hear them attempt to turn this into a political issue, with the usual crying of "see how the left is twisting this issue! They are attempting to divide this nation!!" and many references to Martin's choice of clothes and the fact that he was found with marijuana residue at some point in his past. Of course there was no mention of Zimmerman's past, which is loaded with red flags for anyone who cares to take a look.
The fact is that Zimmerman pursued Martin, and I aint no fancy big city lawyer but it would seem that he gave up his "stand your ground defense" right then and there. The fact that Martin may have stopped to defend himself, and subsequently found himself in a fight with Zimmerman should come as no surprise to anyone but I have a very hard time believing that Zimmerman, an angry cop wannabe who appears to be a lot larger and meaner looking than Martin, found himself getting so pummeled by this kid that his only resort was to shoot him dead.
I'm not saying "Hang him!" and I understand and fully support that people are innocent until proven guilty but there seems sufficient evidence for an arrest of some sort. If he is innocent, fine- that's what the courts are supposed to settle.
Quote from: dug on March 28, 2012, 07:39:25 PM
the fact that he was found with marijuana residue at some point in his past.
That would have been the week before. He was suspended from school at the time this occurred.
Quote from: dug on March 28, 2012, 07:39:25 PM
Of course there was no mention of Zimmerman's past, which is loaded with red flags for anyone who cares to take a look.
He did some questionable things. According to net rumor, he called 911 46 times since January. So what was different about this instance that made him shoot in reported self defense?
Quote from: dug on March 28, 2012, 07:39:25 PM
The fact is that Zimmerman pursued Martin, and I aint no fancy big city lawyer but it would seem that he gave up his "stand your ground defense" right then and there. The fact that Martin may have stopped to defend himself, and subsequently found himself in a fight with Zimmerman should come as no surprise to anyone but I have a very hard time believing that Zimmerman, an angry cop wannabe who appears to be a lot larger and meaner looking than Martin, found himself getting so pummeled by this kid that his only resort was to shoot him dead.
The timing of pursuit makes no difference. Pursuit does not make Zimmerman the aggressor. He claims he left Martin, was returning to his car, when Martin asked him "do you have a problem with me?" to which he replied "no". He claims Martin then said "well now you do", and was punched in the nose and attacked relentlessly.
I don't find it surprising that the picture that is circulated of Martin is a baby faced picture appearing to be 12 years old or so. The other, more recent picture that has surfaced is not getting as much publicity.
My opinion of this is that Zimmerman appears to be a racist and wanted to be a tough guy. He met up with what appears to be a thug-in-training who had some attitude issues of his own.
I would not want to be on this jury.
The moral of this story is that neighborhood watch is better off armed with a camera than with a gun.
... and being suspended from school for some MJ residue has nothing to do with this. I believe toxicoligy tests after his death indicated nothing, IIRC.
Excactly correct Don
here is the video of Zimmerman being taken into custody from abc News after his horrific life threatening fight with a thug that 'broke his nose and was beating his head into the concrete'
http://blog.alexanderhiggins.com/2012/03/28/trayvon-martin-shooter-george-zimmerman-video-blood-bruises-108022/
look for yourself -- no blood no wounds no bumps on his head just a nice shiny bald scalp
maybe Zimmerman is not telling the truth
maybe Zimmerman knew he would be able to lie his way out of this one like the domestic violence arrests and the battery of a police officer arrest -- just call his dad the Florida judge and get out of jail free
More here
http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/29/10915887-police-video-shows-george-zimmerman-shortly-after-trayvon-martin-shooting
Quote from: MountainDon on March 28, 2012, 10:01:19 PM
... and being suspended from school for some MJ residue has nothing to do with this. I believe toxicoligy tests after his death indicated nothing, IIRC.
Other than this was a young man making very poor decisions in whom he was hanging out with, in possession of, and what he was condoning.
If ignoring these circumstances, and if that has nothing to do with situation, then I contend that Zimmerman's behavior in the past also has nothing to do with this. We should only consider the events of that night, which has an eye witness supporting Zimmerman's story.
The press is painting this as a young, baby faced boy with skittles being gunned down by a violent racist.
I'm going to wait to see what evidence is presented.
Article from yesterday at 3:21pm, indicating that the autopsy and toxicology reports are sealed.
http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/320897/20120328/trayvon-martin-autopsy-report-toxicology-case-zimmerman.htm
Please post any references proving otherwise.
(In light of how rapidly people try to read in between the lines, note that I am not saying that he was under the influence. I am only saying that for us to declare him clean of illegal drugs is not something that we can do at this time.)
Probably right that Zimmerman's past numbers of calls to 911 also have nothing to do with this case. Especially as it would seem he never pulled a gun on anyone before.
As for the lab results, I thought I had read/heard a media report, but that or I could have been wrong on that.
Oh, but the screw up with tests was that the police never bothered to have Zimmerman tested which you would have thought they'd do as a cover your ass sort of thing.
Zimmerman doesn't look like he was beat up, head bashed on the ground.....
Too bad this didn't happen in any number of places in the UK. We'd then have surveillance videos from at least three different views. ;D Ya gotta admit that would help to sort out what transpired.
Bruises take days to form. He was treated by paramedics for a few hours before he was taken into police custody for questioning. I can't imagine a good parametic would leave him bloody. A grainy security video wouldn't show much. I would be more interested in the paramedics report.
His father was a magistrate (warrants/bail) judge in Virginia, not Florida. Many states don't even require magistrates judges to be lawyers. That would have little to no bearing on the case.
I do take issue with the size debate. It seems the last pictures they have of the teen were when he was 14, or that is all anyone is showing. The attorney general of Florida even stated that the size of Martin would make it difficult to prosecute Zimmerman. By her account Martin was 6'-3" a full 6" taller than Zimmerman. I don't know where the 250lb weight issue on Zimmerman came in. Some reports list him at 170 and from the video, that would appear correct for a man 5'-9". Martin was a well built athlete too, while the extra weight Zimmerman had on him, looks mostly in his gut.
I am very interested that one officer recommended prosecution to the district attorney of: Unnecessary killing to prevent unlawful act
782.11 Unnecessary killing to prevent unlawful act.--Whoever shall unnecessarily kill another, either while resisting an attempt by such other person to commit any felony, or to do any other unlawful act, or after such attempt shall have failed, shall be deemed guilty of manslaughter, a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
So one officer believed Martin was unlawfully attacking Zimmerman, but killing Martin was not necessary. My assumption is because of the size of Martin (cited by the attorney general as one of the key factors in Zimmerman's self defense claim), was the reason the district attorney did not decide to go it alone and immediately indict Zimmerman. It is still going before a grand jury, as long as the prosecutors don't do any misconduct, they should be protected from wrongful prosecution.
The domestic violence wasn't an arrest, it was a protection from abuse request (temporary restraining order). He also filed against her, which was also granted. They don't meet the standard of any criminal charge. The person accused doesn't even have the right to face their accuser, which is a constitutional protection, or is usually even interviewed.
I find it interesting that you would cite to his battery of a police officer charge having credibility. You frequently point to many articles and sources of the same charges as trumped up by police against people they don't like. I would think the fact that they were dismissed would be more evidence towards this.
Based on some of the possible racist motivations and his background I would put little stock in what Zimmerman states. I would put more stock in credible third party witnesses or physical evidence.
I honestly don't know who to believe. Some witness accounts support Zimmerman, some Martin. It seems that even some of the so-called witnesses may have an agenda.
A huge amount of reasonable doubt here. I could easily see a D.A. thinking it would be a waste of a trial.
I pretty much agree with Squirl except that bruises and swelling in that severe beating are immediate. They get worse over time but are very evident right away. The video was bad but he didn't look too bad to me.
Magistrates aren't important in Va. They are inferior court Judges but the bottom level, and very rarely a lawyer or even have a college degree. They are who will take the job and often, part time.
They are planning to bring it before the Grand Jury in April and it's almost certain they'll return a true bil, then the court gets it and the facts will start coming out....and the BS!
Despite any of this, it's causing a lot of emotional outcry we don't need here.
Quote from: peternap on March 29, 2012, 11:19:06 AM
Despite any of this, it's causing a lot of emotional outcry we don't need here.
Amen!!!!!!!!!
I still don't understand why this is still news. People get shot everyday. People lie everyday. I hate this news story. Not only has it set racial tensions back at least 30 years in this country, the way the media and politicians have jumped on it reeks of the mindset to continue to divide people in this country. Frankly it makes me sick. I still do not think this is a race issue at the core of it.
From my earlier comment more than a week ago; there are no winners here. And the more I see people debating and taking sides on this (and it indeed seems to be everywhere) .. the more I am sure that many are just parroting the opinions they have been fed.
Maybe Muldoon but here's an original opinion.
We're going to hear a lot more about it and in addition to being a battle cry for anti gun legislators....it's going o be a very racial summer.
The Blacks are working themselves up in a fever and groups like the Klan are loving it.
First I'd like to suggest that anyone who wish this story would go away, or are just bored should avoid clicking on this topic. I admit that it riles me some for a couple of reasons. I have been cursed from birth with perhaps too much empathy, and I can imagine myself in a similar situation involving my son, who is just a few years away from his 17th birthday. Of course my deepest grief would be for the loss of my son, but I would also have a hard time accepting that a man (perhaps a maniac) is walking the streets free and clear without the scrutiny of a thorough investigation and a fair trial. Without that it is one mans word and one eye witness account (who didn't witness the whole event) against my son's story, one he could never tell. Trevon's family deserves more.
By the way, Trevon's girlfriends recount of the phone call just before he was shot should carry every bit as much weight as the eyewitness account, which if true would be very telling evidence but I haven't heard it mentioned here.
Secondly, if a precedence is set where an armed man can instigate a fight, and I don't think there is a doubt that Zimmerman instigated this encounter, and then shoot that person and walk free based entirely on on the shooter's word we are one small step from legal vigilantism, if not already there. Individuals may be brilliant and steady but people can exercise incredibly poor judgement, which is why some laws and regulations I grudgingly accept as necessary.
You can bet that Zimmerman is under 10X more scrutiny than anyone else in the past 10 years. With the amount of international attention, this is going to be completely examined.
I'm sure that they will correlate the cell phone records against the timing of the shot fired in the 911 call.
Trevon's family deserves truth and fairness. So does Zimmerman. Equal. Nothing less, nothing more.
Irrationally biased empathy serves no one in situations such as this.
You have no proof that Zimmerman instigated the fight. Zero. None. It is purely speculation and emotional response.
Zimmerman broke no laws in following, approaching, or speaking with Martin.
We are not privvy to much of the information... and that is exactly how it should be. Lock down the data, let the grand jury do its job, and then let it come out in court if need be.
How many times will we allow the media to play us like fools? Didn't we just learn a recent lesson about this with the Gates / Crowley incident?
Here is another image of baby faced Martin.
I wonder why we are not seeing this one on all the posters?
http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/29/second-trayvon-martin-twitter-feed-identified/
O.K., so I guess I'm a fool.
No proof at all? How about the 911 tape? Clearly Zimmerman was following him, and then confronted him. Was his gun concealed? I don't know. I do know that a number of things that could logically occur in a 17 year olds mind at that point including fear, adrenaline, machismo, stupidity, etc.. Martin very well may have ended up turning aggressive and giving Zimmerman more than he could handle but my point is that that Zimmerman was the initial aggressor, and there seems valid evidence to support that.
Irrationally biased empathy? That is your opinion and you are entitled but it doesn't necessarily make you right. As far as the media playing me for a fool, most that I've heard has been broadcasted from AM radio heads who all but proclaim Zimmerman a hero so I suppose it hasn't worked so well for them in my case.
Quote from: Squirl on March 29, 2012, 09:45:54 AM
Bruises take days to form. He was treated by paramedics for a few hours before he was taken into police custody for questioning. I can't imagine a good parametic would leave him bloody. A grainy security video wouldn't show much. I would be more interested in the paramedics report.
We were on Vacation this past week and a kid fell off a lounge chair onto the cement deck. Even after the paramedics got through with him you could tell...
When we allow private citizens to take on the roles of police and allow police to take on the role of prosecuter/judge/jury(Impoundments), you are asking for trouble. There is a reason we give authority to police and checks and balances against those same powers.
This was a bad situation gone totally wrong, even is the kid in the "hoodie" was up to no good. The appropriate authorities should have been notified and they could have taken care of the problem.
Give me the exact evidence that you have for what Zimmerman said or did to Martin. What evidence do you have that shows that Zimmerman was aggressive and anything less than polite? Perhaps he went up to Martin, asked politely for Martin to explain himself, and caught Martin during a bad case of the pissed-offs?
Did the 911 call capture the full dialog between the two?
What exactly did he say or do to Martin which provoked Martin to pounce on him, and provide a reference to the data that exists as of your last post.... and I will retract the "irrationally based empathy" comment and provide you a heartfelt apology.
Unless you know the details, how can you express rational empathy for one but not the other?
My response to all of this nonsense, is aggravation at how quickly people jump on the popular bandwagon, and how easily they are led by the media, race, political alignment, whatever. People, especially liberals, follow their gut rather than their head.
I shudder to think that they are routinely on juries. What is the quote? "....they know so much that isn't so".
This is a horrible situation for all involved. What appears to be two hotheads, one gun. An absolute recipe for disaster.
Quote from: dug on March 29, 2012, 07:50:55 PM
First I'd like to suggest that anyone who wish this story would go away, or are just bored should avoid clicking on this topic. I admit that it riles me some for a couple of reasons. I have been cursed from birth with perhaps too much empathy, and I can imagine myself in a similar situation involving my son, who is just a few years away from his 17th birthday. Of course my deepest grief would be for the loss of my son, but I would also have a hard time accepting that a man (perhaps a maniac) is walking the streets free and clear without the scrutiny of a thorough investigation and a fair trial. Without that it is one mans word and one eye witness account (who didn't witness the whole event) against my son's story, one he could never tell. Trevon's family deserves more.
By the way, Trevon's girlfriends recount of the phone call just before he was shot should carry every bit as much weight as the eyewitness account, which if true would be very telling evidence but I haven't heard it mentioned here.
Secondly, if a precedence is set where an armed man can instigate a fight, and I don't think there is a doubt that Zimmerman instigated this encounter, and then shoot that person and walk free based entirely on on the shooter's word we are one small step from legal vigilantism, if not already there. Individuals may be brilliant and steady but people can exercise incredibly poor judgement, which is why some laws and regulations I grudgingly accept as necessary.
Very well said dug.
Quote from: NM_Shooter on March 29, 2012, 11:00:54 PM
My response to all of this nonsense, is aggravation at how quickly people jump on the popular bandwagon, and how easily they are led by the media, race, political alignment, whatever.
That hits the nail on the head IMO.. People are upset because the media wants them to be, and they think they know all the facts because they follow the media..
Quote from: NM_Shooter on March 29, 2012, 08:37:19 PMZimmerman broke no laws in following, approaching, or speaking with Martin.
We don't know that. If he tried to restrain Martin when he said "What are you doing here?", or brandished his weapon, it is assault. We don't have enough information to conclude whether Zimmerman did or did not break the law. I don't know, and neither do you.
I have broken my nose at least once -- there was a lot of blood and my nose was quite swollen and distorted within minutes and stayed that way for a couple days
my head has contacted concrete at a fair velocity a couple times and the bumps were almost instant and they stayed swollen for hours and sometimes days.
My whole point is that there is more than enough evidence to bring a grand jury
Why was this not done immediately when people's memory was clearer and there was still physical evidence of the incident -- if Zimmerman's head was being smashed into the concrete there would have been DNA evidence, or blood spatters from his broken nose -- for example, these items would lend some credibility to Zimmerman's story
When cops can decide one's guilt or innocence 'on the spot' we have a seriously flawed justice system
QuoteWhen cops can decide one's guilt or innocence 'on the spot' we have a seriously flawed justice system
Amen!
I have listened to the tapes and the things I do want to point out does not determine if the boy was shot legally or not. When Zimmerman was talking to the 911 operator with the description and such the 911 operator asked where the suspect was. We hear at that moment the car door open as Zimmerman gets out to follow...at this point, this tells me that Zimmerman spotted the kid in his car and was following as he could in his car, no different then I have when seeing somenthing suspicious in my neighborhood....So, we hear the sounds of a car door opening and hear a little heavy breathing...seems to me that Zimmerman got out because he was trying to provide the whereabouts for the 911 operator and he probably thought at that moment the 911 operator was relaying that message to the cops....BUT, then the 911 operator ask that question (beacuse he realizes that Zimmerman has gotten out of the car at that point and is on foot in pursuit) and you hear in the guys voice a slight resign and agrees to stop. Just something to consider....
Quote from: Pox Eclipse on March 30, 2012, 05:33:13 PM
We don't know that. If he tried to restrain Martin when he said "What are you doing here?", or brandished his weapon, it is assault. We don't have enough information to conclude whether Zimmerman did or did not break the law. I don't know, and neither do you.
You are right. I should not post anything that projects his innocence either. Let me clarify.
All we know based on 911 info is that he indicated that he was going to follow Martin. We don't know that he spoke to him, tried to restrain him, brandished a weapon (very highly unlikely, IMHO), or did anything threatening.
In a public place, unless you are under a restraining order, it is not illegal to follow and approach someone in a civil manner, ask them what they are doing and where they are going. You can even be a jerk about it if you choose to. This is not illegal.
We just don't know the details.
Quote from: NM_Shooter on March 31, 2012, 08:25:01 AM
You can even be a jerk about it if you choose to. This is not illegal.
Thank the Lord! c*
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/post/nbc-to-do-internal-investigation-on-zimmerman-segment/2012/03/31/gIQAc4HhnS_blog.html?hpid=z6
Gotta watch those evil, right wing media sources! Oh wait, this was NBC trying to whip up the frenzy. At least they are launching an investigation into how this occurred. I'm not weighing in on the guilt or innocence of Zimmerman - it's way too soon to begin doing that, but I am trying to draw attention to the fact that some in the media are trying to paint this as a racial incident. It may be or it may not be, but NBC has some "splaining to do.
NBC made a minimal gesture at making an apology. Their portrayal of this incident probably accounted for most of the racial vehemence that has occurred. I would not be surprised to see Zimmerman sue NBC.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/post/nbc-issues-apology-on-zimmerman-tape-screw-up/2012/04/03/gIQA8m5jtS_blog.html
Meanwhile, stories such as the following get little to no mainstream press. What if the man (who was beaten into critical condition with a hammer and then dumped in the woods and beaten more) had defended himself before being beaten?
Bet we would have heard that story.... "Another racist man shoots and kills two young carpenters on their way to Homes for the Homeless build".
http://www.cfnews13.com/content/news/cfnews13/news/article.html/content/news/articles/cfn/2012/4/2/two_teens_arrested_i/
I want to see Obama, Sharpton and Jackson step up and comment on this, starting with what sort of paternal resemblance these teens might have.
I'm tired of a world wide media that does not simply report, but draws conclusions and presents their "story" as a representation of their belief. I suspect that it has always been that way.
I have noticed some of the outrage that some people have expressed at the individuals grand standing on this or using it for financial or political gain.
When I heard "I stand here as a son, father, uncle who is tired of being scared for our boys" on the radio by the head of the NAACP in response to the Martin shooting, I was outraged.
I live in the eastern half of Pennsylvania. In my media sphere is news from the Lehigh Valley, Philadelphia, New Jersey, and sometimes New York. I see the most horrific acts of violence on African American children every time I turn on the news. There has been a few in depth reports on who the murder victims are. From memory, almost 95% of all murder victims in the area are men. 90% of those are African American. 80% are under 25. Many are children. The same day I heard that quote I had heard about 2 African American teens (17 and 18) shot 30 times with a fully automatic AK-47. No arrests. No protests demanding police or federal resources. No Al Sharpton, no head of the NAACP calling for justice. Everyday hundreds of our boys, that have committed no crime other than being born poor and in the ghetto, are gunned down in the streets in clear cut first degree murder and these same people don't even bat an eye. Horrible.
Showtime!
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/george-zimmerman-to-be-charged-in-trayvon-martin-shooting-law-enforcement-official-says/2012/04/11/gIQAHJ5oAT_print.html
George Zimmerman to be charged in Trayvon Martin shooting, official says
By Sari Horwitz, Updated: Wednesday, April 11, 2:46 PM
Florida special prosecutor Angela Corey plans to announce as early as Wednesday afternoon that she is charging neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman in the shooting of Trayvon Martin, according to a law enforcement official close to the investigation.
It was not immediately clear what charge Zimmerman will face.
Martin, 17 and unarmed, was shot and killed Feb. 26 by Zimmerman, who said he was acting in self-defense. Police in Sanford, Fla., where the shooting took place, did not charge Zimmerman, citing the state's "stand your ground" law.
Corey told reporters Tuesday night that she would hold a news conference about the case within 72 hours. A news release from her office said the event will be held in Sanford or Jacksonville, Fla.
Benjamin Crump, who is representing the Martin family, said this week that Corey's office had asked where Trayvon's parents would be each day this week. They arrived Wednesday in Washington for a civil rights conference organized by the Rev. Al Sharpton, where they spoke to reporters.
Sabryna Fulton and Tracy Martin, Trayvon's parents, said they would not comment on the charges because they had not been personally notified. They scheduled a press conference for 5 :15 p.m.
Earlier reports that Zimmerman's lawyers said they did not know where he was did not bother Trayvon's parents, they said.
"We do have faith in the justice system. When it is time to arrest him, they will find him," Fulton said.
The announcement of a charge against Zimmerman would come a day after Zimmerman's attorneys withdrew from the case, citing their inability to contact Zimmerman.
Lawyers Craig Sonner and Hal Uhrig on Tuesday expressed concern about Zimmerman's emotional and physical well-being, saying he has taken actions without consulting them. They also said they do not know where Zimmerman is.
"You can stop looking in Florida," Uhrig told reporters. "Look much further away than that."
Corey said Monday that she would not bring the case before a grand jury, which was expected to convene this week. She said her decision to forgo the grand jury should not be viewed as an indication of whether charges will be filed.
Corey has indicated in recent weeks that she might not need a grand jury to bring charges against Zimmerman.
The lawyers said they stand by their assertions that Zimmerman acted in self-defense when he killed the 17-year-old, who was unarmed, but they acknowledged that they formed their impressions without meeting Zimmerman.
© The Washington Post Company
When this started, I was certain he was going to be convicted no matter what. I was also certain the social unrest and political consequences would be bad.
Seeing some of the new evidence, I've changed my mind somewhat. I think he'll be acquitted. It's oo early to tell about political fallout but I still think it will be bad.....
I keep reading these stories though and I stand by my belief that this is going to be a big summer.
It's just a matter of time before some white fellow gets tired ob being beaten and unloads a shotgun in the crowd. Then all hell will break loose.
http://www2.wkrg.com/news/2012/apr/23/man-beaten-mob-critical-condition-ar-3659891/
MOBILE, Alabama --
Mobile police need your help to catch a mob that beat Matthew Owens so badly that he's in critical condition.
According to police, Owens fussed at some kids playing basketball in the middle of Delmar Drive about 8:30 Saturday night. They say the kids left and a group of adults returned, armed with everything but the kitchen sink.
Police tell News 5 the suspects used chairs, pipes and paint cans to beat Owens.
Owens' sister, Ashley Parker, saw the attack. "It was the scariest thing I have ever witnessed." Parker says 20 people, all African American, attacked her brother on the front porch of his home, using "brass buckles, paint cans and anything they could get their hands on."
Police will only say "multiple people" are involved.
What Parker says happened next could make the fallout from the brutal beating even worse. As the attackers walked away, leaving Owen bleeding on the ground, Parker says one of them said "Now thats justice for Trayvon." Trayvon Martin is the unarmed teenager police say was shot and killed February 26 by neighborhood watch captain George Zimmerman in Samford, Florida.
Police canvassed the area, but did not find any suspects. They're asking anyone with information to call them at 251-208-7211, Crime Stoppers at 251-208-7000, or text a tip to 274637 and include the keyword CRIME 411.
When they dismissed the grand jury and charged him with 2nd degree murder with an information, something stunk.
A grand jury can indict a ham sandwich. Why not go with that? It protects the prosecution and holds an air of legitimacy to the accusations. It makes me think either the prosecution believed that they couldn't get to the second degree murder charge by running it by a jury of his peers or they simply didn't want to wait. Even after charging him, they could still supersede with a grand jury but they aren't. Which leads me to believe they think there isn't enough there for the second degree murder charge they charged him with.
I have only seen criminal informations used in crimes that were very clear on their face, usually misdemeanors, or a plea was expected or worked out ahead of time. This is second degree murder carrying a life in prison sentence. I don't know the state laws of Florida, but that is on the verge of a fifth amendment issue.
5th amendment: "No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury"
Smart move on the prosecutor's part. She based the information on the Martin's mother testifying it was Martin calling for help on the 911 tape. This would get the grieving mother on the stand as a witness when there would have been no other way for her to testify because she wasn't there. I assume the defense will move to disqualify her as an expert witness about Martin's voice.
If he is acquitted, whatever the costs of wrongful prosecution and attorney's fees will be less for the government than if a riot broke out.
I don't think there's any way in the world to keep a riot from breaking out Squirl!
Where aren't the dynamic duo down in Mobile, demanding justice for the man that was beaten?
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journalism/2012/03/30/Sharpton-Civil-Disobedience (http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journalism/2012/03/30/Sharpton-Civil-Disobedience)
I agree, we have a very sad and steamy summer ahead of us.
Some Zimmerman background.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/25/us-usa-florida-shooting-zimmerman-idUSBRE83O18H20120425
I noticed they omitted the incident where Zimmerman assaulted a police officer. I'm sure it was just an oversight.
Quote
Assistant State Attorney Bernie de la Rionda cited two incidents -- a 2005 case in which a police officer accused Zimmerman of battery and another incident in which a woman filed a domestic violence injunction against Zimmerman after a scuffle.
In the 2005 case, Zimmerman was charged with battery on a law enforcement officer and obstruction of justice after tussling with an alcoholic beverage control officer. The charges were later reduced to a misdemeanor after Zimmerman agreed to enter a diversion program and take an anger management class, according to testimony in Friday's hearing.
...
In the other case, de la Rionda said a woman filed papers in which she said Zimmerman smacked her in the mouth and "asked her how it felt," as well as grabbed her and threw her on a bed.
http://www.thebostonchannel.com/news/30930042/detail.html
I'm sure he's a very nice boy. Could happen to anybody.
They didn't omit it. Did you read the entire article or just selectively? From that link :
"That July, Zimmerman was charged with resisting arrest, violence, and battery of an officer after shoving an undercover alcohol-control agent who was arresting an under-age friend of Zimmerman's at a bar. He avoided conviction by agreeing to participate in a pre-trial diversion program that included anger-management classes.
In August, Zimmerman's fiancee at the time, Veronica Zuazo, filed a civil motion for a restraining order alleging domestic violence. Zimmerman reciprocated with his own order on the same grounds, and both orders were granted. The relationship ended."
More info:
QuoteWFTV.com reports that a medical examiner found two injuries on Martin's body: the fatal gunshot wound to the chest and broken skin on his knuckles. The autopsy results surface as court records indicate that Zimmerman had a pair of black eyes, a fractured nose and two cuts to the back of his head after the fatal shooting on Feb. 26.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/05/16/autopsy-results-reportedly-indicate-trayvon-martin-suffered-injuries-to/ (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/05/16/autopsy-results-reportedly-indicate-trayvon-martin-suffered-injuries-to/)
Hmmmm.... interesting that they are releasing data on Martin's knuckles, but the toxicology report is still sealed. I suspect that if it was clean it would have been released by now.
Media is changing their tune on Zimmerman. Probably looking for a soft exit after presenting him to all the world as guilty.
If charges get dropped, things are going to explode.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-case-charges-dropped/story?id=16392466