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   If Israel goes it alone, bad stuff is going to happen. If Israel sits back and does nothing, bad stuff is going to happen.

  Bad stuff is inevitable.........no matter where you stand

  Decisions......decisions





sparks

Everybody needs to leave everybody else alone.

Our soldiers offer their lives to protect the US in a legally declared war.  They are not supposed to have them squandered creating collateral damage to innocent civilians in dozens of wars for oil and profit of the investors (politicians interests mostly) in killing machines.

We do not have one politician's life that is worth more than the life of the lowliest innocent woman or child civilian in Iran or Palestine.  Our politicians loyalty is supposed to be to the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. 

Our politicians realizing they are sinners think that unconditional support of Israel will buy them a stairway to heaven.  They will sacrifice untold numbers of our sons and daughters to achieve their goal --- mostly not their sons and daughters.  They forget the commandment to love their neighbors - that means everywhere so their squandering of lives and money is vanity according to their own religious beliefs.  At least they are making a profit - many times from both sides.

The Middle East conflict is for oil, empire building, drug growing to support our government clandestine operations and Earthly Israel's leadership's desires as well as the falsely assumed salvation of our sold out politicians.

Let's bring the boys home to protect us here at home rather than wasting their lives for someone else's  unjust wars of conquest in the Middle East.  We could save a lot of innocents and maybe the people there could once again begin to like us and think maybe we are OK after all.

I know... not gonna happen... [waiting]

BTW, I have lots of friends there and I don't want to see even one of them or their relatives made dead.  We have done too much killing of innocents there already.  Our hands are red with their blood.  Our government just does not let us see it... not even our own sons and daughters pix as they are blown to little pieces of meat --- too gross for the people (sheeple?) and the war and oil profits as well as manufactured consent might go away.  The pix are there on the net if you care to look.  My friend from Yemen has linked to plenty of them.  Nearly none will bother to look though... heck.. I don't even look enough to motivate me more.

 Some one voted yes......don't hide behind your vote..........


We all know bad stuff will happen............

Tell us why..?




sparks

This is a real can of worms, isn't it. There is no real correct answer except choice 3, but I didn't mark that one.

The poll asks is it or would it be wise if Israel launched a first strike against Iran. I'm not sure if I like the question phrased as "wise"? ??? But it might be in Israels best long term interest. I'm glad they're not counting on me to make the choice or decision.  When Israel is faced with Iran's supreme leader stating that Israel a "cancer" that must be cut out, well, how are they to take that?

For a short time I lived in a seedy area of greater LA. I know what it's like to feel threatened. I have permission from the great state of Kalifornia to carry a concealed handgun. And I do even though it's hard to find a place to conceal one at times. ;)  I would be in doo-doo if I misused my retaliatory power so I have to wait until some jerk off (can I say that; if not please wipe that out), until some jerk off actually carries out a threat before I can act with a lessened fear of the legal system coming down harder on me than on the JO. So what the heck am I trying to say? I appreciate how Israel feels, I guess. And I can sympathize with their government wanting to pre-empt a potential source of great danger.

I don't want to see a war. I don't want US military to be involved in the M.E. I also don't want to abandon Israel. I don't want to see Iran try to close the Straights  of Hormuz.


It's too bad in many ways, that we have any nuclear arms at all, but that genie was let out of the bottle a long time ago. I think there are 8 countries with Israel a ninth but unconfirmed officially. The world does not need another power with nuclear weapons ability. I think the leaders in Iran should be censured for even thinking about having nuclear weapons. I also think the countries with them should have fewer but that's another topic I guess.


So even though I don't think it would be wise, in what would be a normal sense to me, I understand why Israel might carry through with that stance.  So I voted for the first choice. Call me crazy, others have. :D  It is a simple answer for a question that is not really very simple at all.

And I don't think much would change for the better of the entire world, if the current or next president of the USA brought all US military forces home and kept them here doing nothing but guarding our immediate borders. Until everyone gets a big happy face smiley with an attitude to match there will always be a need for policemen. Usually the good guys make the best policemen. Anyhow that is my opinion such as it is and such as it rambles may be self contradictory at times and may even sound incoherent.

Carla,

You were not only coherent, but your post was very well thought out and written. I agree with you that a strike by Israel might annoy some folks in the world, but when the leader of Iran publicly states, time and again, that his regime's intention is to "wipe Israel from the map" what's a country to do? Your police analogy seems to be right on; if Israel does not continue to preemptively strike at Iran's nuclear capability, then they will certainly suffer the consequences.  I do have skin in this game also - my son is serving in Afghanistan at the present time and knows full well what our prior policy of isolationisism brought; terror to our shores via the two (2) world trade center bombings, embasssy bombings, USS Cole bombings, etc... I would very much like to think that, if we simply came home and ignored radical Islam that our world would be peaceful, but I don't believe that scenario would ever happen. Again, thanks for your thoughtful post.

Wow, what a topic to start the day with!

I believe some action will happen very soon. Either Iran will try to close the straits or will throw caution to the wind and actually launch an attack that will leave much of their land more desolate than it currently is.

It boils down to the covenant that God made with Abraham:
Genesis 12: 1-3
Now the LORD had said to Abram:
"Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father's house,
To a land that I will show you.
I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you and make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed...

Israel has the original deed of trust related to their land.

America is blessed first and foremost because of our relationship with Israel, our decline started with our leaders suggesting to Israel that they give back a portion of the land to appease the ones that question Israel's right to exist.

There have always been innocent blood shed in war, but it is the civilized people who are concerned with innocent blood on both sides of a conflict. The uncivilized are only concerned about innocent blood if it suits their propaganda spin.

Don't know when but I know it will happen, kind of like winter coming on, you see signs of its arrival and the only thing you can do is to prepare and stay prepared.
When it happens, it won't be pretty and it will be unlike anything we have ever seen.

I served in our military and I stand firmly behind the nation of Israel. I feel that Israel has been restrained in their response so far to all the missiles being launched into their land.

Being a good steward of what you have been blessed with also means protecting that blessing from being encroached upon.

Thank you Carla.  So refreshing to have a great difference of opinion expressed so well here.  Thank you for the well thought out and expressed answer.  :)

Ummmmm mommy, Carla said Jerk off.....  [cool]

Yeah, its OK Carla.  We try to keep it PG13 or so here and the 13yo's in the city talk worse than that.  We only get complaints on personal attacks so we generally try to be nice to each other.  We can always talk about  "them" instead of each other.  :)

You sound kind of PD to me.  I know a Carla up here who is retired CHP.  She sounds a lot like you.... not too afraid to say what she thinks even if we think she is crazy.  Makes us laugh once in a while.  Hasn't shot anyone recently.....

I only recall one country who has actually dropped a couple of nuclear devices, not because they needed to, (argued by some but negotiations were under way to settle it and progress was being made)  but because they wanted to try them out.  Savages I'd say.  I know many from Japan and have dear friends there. I Have had discussions with them about WWII and had them stay in our house. 

Israel, if they attack Iran will of course expect the US to back them up with weapons and money which we already supply them,  cannon fodder (sons and daughters) as well as the backing of the dual citizens running our government or those who have sworn to uphold Israels interests (can't say not over the interests of the US - can't serve two masters so they will likely go toward Israel as is typical for our leadership). 

http://www.viewzone.com/dualcitizen.html  (Bush admin - some may have changed - didn't find current yet. )

Here's one http://www.islamist.com/index.php/world/1099-obama-appoints-israeli-dual-citizen-to-us-intelligence-board

Hard to find refs to current duals without getting into sites some consider anti-Semite, though actually the Arabs/Palestinians are Semite too.

I have many Iranian friends and Muslim friends.  No they do not froth at the mouth or want to kill us or Israeli's.  They want to live like us and they cry and bleed when they or their children or loved ones are shot, wounded or raped.  I am not one of them but simply try to follow the love thy neighbor rule.

We do not get to see the atrocities committed by US or Israel.  Study up on it and you will find there are no good guys to be the police of the world.  I submit Abu Ghraib, the Kuwait Highway of Death,  Gitmo,  Israel-Palestine murders on both sides as evidence.  We whitewash the nastiness so unless you do as I do and study outside sources you will see little of it.

Israel strikes first, they likely well unleash a fiery Hell on them selves before the rest of us are sucked into it.  If they do in my opinion it will be well deserved though I have Jewish relatives in Lithuanian Cemeteries and Jewish friends today.

What is there about Love Thy Neighbor that is so hard to understand or repulsive?     [noidea'

Quote from: Woodsrule on February 05, 2012, 08:56:39 AM
Carla,

You were not only coherent, but your post was very well thought out and written. I agree with you that a strike by Israel might annoy some folks in the world, but when the leader of Iran publicly states, time and again, that his regime's intention is to "wipe Israel from the map" what's a country to do? Your police analogy seems to be right on; if Israel does not continue to preemptively strike at Iran's nuclear capability, then they will certainly suffer the consequences.  I do have skin in this game also - my son is serving in Afghanistan at the present time and knows full well what our prior policy of isolationisism brought; terror to our shores via the two (2) world trade center bombings, embasssy bombings, USS Cole bombings, etc... I would very much like to think that, if we simply came home and ignored radical Islam that our world would be peaceful, but I don't believe that scenario would ever happen. Again, thanks for your thoughtful post.

I need to point out here that the "Wipe Israel Off The Map"  statement credited to Ahmadinejad is actually a mistranslation slanted to favor Israel.  His intent was a bit more as I saw Carla's comment implied.  He is against current Israeli leadership and policies is more of the intent of his statement. 

There is too much conflicting evidence in the (2) WTC events to rule them as done by Middle East terrorists without aid by the US or Israel in both cases.  You will find false flags used in many cases and many times events meant to influence masses of people are also influenced or allowed to happen by our leadership.  What about the USS Liberty?  Israel attack and near annhilation of the Liberty and our veterans put under gag order.

Woodsrule, I am a Christian and yet I have to counter the Radical Islam statement with a mention of Rabid Radical Christianity statement.  I think they are the ones the Lord said would come in his name and He would say he did not know them.         (End of religious spiel for me).

You cannot kill your neighbors, invade their homes, dehumanize them and comply with the Love Thy Neighbor commandment.  A drone does not know one religion from the other, a child or woman from a radical warrior,  let alone the guy playing computer games operating it.  If he had to take them out with a bayonet I think he would remember the look in their eyes as the blood ran out of them.

Quote from: Tickhill on February 05, 2012, 08:58:39 AM
Wow, what a topic to start the day with!

I believe some action will happen very soon. Either Iran will try to close the straits or will throw caution to the wind and actually launch an attack that will leave much of their land more desolate than it currently is.

It boils down to the covenant that God made with Abraham:
Genesis 12: 1-3
Now the LORD had said to Abram:
"Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father's house,
To a land that I will show you.
I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you and make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed...

Israel has the original deed of trust related to their land.

America is blessed first and foremost because of our relationship with Israel, our decline started with our leaders suggesting to Israel that they give back a portion of the land to appease the ones that question Israel's right to exist.

There have always been innocent blood shed in war, but it is the civilized people who are concerned with innocent blood on both sides of a conflict. The uncivilized are only concerned about innocent blood if it suits their propaganda spin.

Don't know when but I know it will happen, kind of like winter coming on, you see signs of its arrival and the only thing you can do is to prepare and stay prepared.
When it happens, it won't be pretty and it will be unlike anything we have ever seen.

I served in our military and I stand firmly behind the nation of Israel. I feel that Israel has been restrained in their response so far to all the missiles being launched into their land.

Being a good steward of what you have been blessed with also means protecting that blessing from being encroached upon.

Good commentary Tickhill.

I think we need to remember that according to the Bible God's problem with Israel was handled by him in his manner.  He is the one who will have to restore Israel to their place if He sees fit.  Nothing that can be done by man giving them the land God displaced them from with b o m b s and guns and killling by either side can keep something together that is not His will.  We need to stop supporting our politicians quest for a stairway to heaven through weapons, death and destruction.  Let God handle it,  It is His problem.  We cannot fix it.

Also, thanks to all for the great civil discussion.  :)

It would be nice if everyone would just leave everyone else alone.  But of course, that will never happen.  Never.   Never has, never will.  Back in the old days, whoever could swing the biggest club was boss.  I suspect the rest of everybody hoped he was of relatively gentle nature.

As humans, we are a species that competes with one another, frequently to the point of war.  We are driven by this competition and it is fueled by greed and envy.  It is in our DNA.  To repress this takes more energy than we care to exert.  There have been some examples of those who have, but it generally does not work out well for them (Tibet comes to mind).

Some of our species is more prone to violence than others.  Some groups are more prone to violence than others.  Some nations.  A lot of these conflicts are so old, that nobody will admit to or can prove who-started-what.  The hate is deep seeded, and it is not going to go away.  Most of the crap is caused by folks in the middle east and the immigrant distribution of their culture.  It's been awhile since there has been any warring going on among folks in North America. 

Give an unreasonable entity the ability to create the ultimate destruction, and we are done. 

Given the poll answers to choose from, I am going to have to pick no, but only because of the word "any" in the poll choice.  I believe that NATO should come down with both feet on Iran and fix this festering issue.  Technology is being developed to allow much deeper penetrating conventional weapons.  This could be done with a nuclear strike, but reason is prevailing for now.  Of course, Iran could just dig a deeper lab.  What then?

We are not going to negotiate with Iran such that they give up nuclear weapons development.  And the world can not afford for them to have it. 

I predict that a strike will happen this year.  It hasn't happened yet because we don't have a penetrator that will reach, but it is coming soon. 

Keep your lap belts fastened low and securely.

Quote from: glenn kangiser on February 05, 2012, 09:30:29 AM

You sound kind of PD to me.  I know a Carla up here who is retired CHP.  She sounds a lot like you.... not too afraid to say what she thinks even if we think she is crazy. 

I'm not that Carla, Glenn. And I've never shot a human, ever. :)

I've racked my brain but I cannot place a meaning on  "PD". Over my head this morning.  [noidea'

Ok, the minimum effect in the US of a strike on Iran would be a gasoline at $7 to $15 per gallon --- if you could get it.

Needless to say this would not be good for our sagging economy --  estimates are that the DOW would go to  7000 to 10,000 (how's your 401K going to look)

Blowing up their nuclear fuel enrichment operations would likely make Fukushima and Chernobyl look like a walk in the park.

China imports a major amount of oil from Iran. I and others do not think they will take the cut off of a major oil supply lightly.

Russia has already warned that an attack on Iran will be considered an act of war on Russia. They already positioned battle ships in the Mediteranean.

Quote from: Windpower on February 05, 2012, 12:57:10 PM
Ok, the minimum effect in the US of a strike on Iran would be a gasoline at $7 to $15 per gallon --- if you could get it.

Needless to say this would not be good for our sagging economy --  estimates are that the DOW would go to  7000 to 10,000 (how's your 401K going to look)

Blowing up their nuclear fuel enrichment operations would likely make Fukushima and Chernobyl look like a walk in the park.

China imports a major amount of oil from Iran. I and others do not think they will take the cut off of a major oil supply lightly.

Russia has already warned that an attack on Iran will be considered an act of war on Russia. They already positioned battle ships in the Mediteranean.

I think you are right.  I also think that Iran lobbing a nuke at Israel, or sending one into NY Harbor would be worse.  My 401k would be worse, my gold would more than make up for it.

I'd prefer an ounce of medicine now. 

Quote from: Carla_M on February 05, 2012, 12:53:45 PM
I'm not that Carla, Glenn. And I've never shot a human, ever. :)

I've racked my brain but I cannot place a meaning on  "PD". Over my head this morning.  [noidea'

Like...    Police Department - retired or otherwise.  :)

"Would it be wise if Israel launched any strike against Iran ?"

I struggled a bit with the wording to use...........
I thought of using 'will' instead of 'would'.......but that changes the timing
I thought of 'prudent' instead of 'wise'..........but that changes the mindset
I see one poster had concerns about the word 'any'.......so did I
I thought about using 'a first' as opposed to 'any.......'

So this is what it looks like with the changes.....

"Will it be prudent if Israel launches a first strike against Iran ?"

Maybe take the 'if' out........add in 'when'....


serious stuff going on over there folks....very serious........and someone, somewhere is just waiting for it to happen.


sparks

PD = Police Dept. Somehow I would have never thought of that. Now it seems clear. Especially with the mention of CHP.

It is in Israel's interest to stop Iran's nuclear program.
It is in Iran's interest to develop a nuclear weapon.
Almost no one believes that their nuclear program is just for energy from the most energy rich country in the world.

I feel bad for the Iranian people.  They don't have a lot of freedom to change their government.  If you believe reports though, there is wide spread support for the nuclear program in Iran.

I find it interesting that the original question was should Israel attack Iran, and most people discussed the U.S. attacking Iran.

The U.S. helped to create the nation of Israel.  When the rest of the middle east allied with Russia (and still are), Israel was our proxy nation for cold war with the Russians in the Middle East.  They were at war in the region 5-6 times.  The U.S. stood by making sure the Russians didn't step in.  They even took out Iraq's nuclear program.  We armed them and paid them and they did the fighting.  They were the junkyard dog of the Middle East.

Why should we need to get our hands dirty?
Just let the dog off the leash.

dog off the leash ?

Lavon Affair

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavon_Affair

USS Liberty

34 US sailors killed, 170 wounded

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident

This is who wants the ultimate weapon :

http://www.wnd.com/2012/02/ayatollah-kill-all-jews-annihilate-israel/

I don't think he is one of the guys I classify as being one of the good guys. I don;t think I want to see him as the policeman on the block.

Yes.  The Liberty accident you posted was during the 6 day war in which the United States were allies arming, supplying, and supporting Israel. We were there to protect our interests, test our weapons, and to keep the Russians from attacking Israel as they went to wipe out Egypt.
I could look up dozens of friendly fire accidents of the British against the U.S. in the last 100 years.  The British are no more our enemies than Israel. 
The U.S. has a long history of friendly fire incidents.  In the last two wars we seem to have a habit of killing Canadians and Brits, that is part of the horror of war.

Israel has done this before.  We give them the weapons to do it. Denounce it in the U.N. Then give them the weapons to do it again.
Dog off the leash.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Opera

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wooden_Leg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Orchard

Quote from: Windpower on February 06, 2012, 10:19:07 AM
dog off the leash ?

Lavon Affair

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavon_Affair

USS Liberty

34 US sailors killed, 170 wounded

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident

/\
   
This is who has 100 to 200 nuclear weapons

Honestly I thought Israel had already started ? with their scientists being assasinated and their labs and bases having accidental explosions.

I spent a month in Iran back probably 13 years ago- I met many a local both in Tehran and Awas where i spent the majority of the time.

In tehran I was free for a few days and wandered the main souk where life has not seemed to change for years- carpets grains and all types of marketable goods abounded.

I got barked at in the street- and people spat on the ground as i passed.

In the souk when buying some padlocks the owner spoke English and we had a long discussion behind his locked front door- how is the west and why do they hate us ?

On my flight to Awas the plane was full of military- they made no attempt to ignore the white dude with the short hair cut

On arrival awaiting my bags a group of 5 approached me- I thought this is it

they handed me a pile of sweets and turned and left - my face must have been a classic look of beweilderment.

During my time in Awas all the workers i was with had a time with me to discuss life outside and how their life had been so much better with the Shah in charge.

To me it was very similar to libya- an opressed people fed a biased view of the world.

There were still desert nomads walking the streets with their little tractors a dutiful 10 paces behind carring scimitars and ginger henna beards.

One of the workers stopped in the road with his family of what felt like 16 of them piled in the lada, they all got out and he spent time introducing all of them to his new Gringo friend.

While I was there the court case was being completed to do with the german cafe assasination by iranian operators.

I phoned my embassy in tehran- I got the message that it was closed for re-decoration

In my bags were a map- a compass and some good hiking gear as the border was close

The client however rented some security chaps to escort me back to tehran and out.

Like most "enemies of the west"

The average joe in the street has no hatred- just a concern due to the news they recieve.

The blustering and posturing from their religious leaders is just that- could they block the straight -

yes probably for a few days

Global pressure to get it opened would be huge- the nato-US aliance forces have the capability to ground probably all of Irans forces.

The US has two huge bases in Qatar- Fuel operations in Oman alongside UK forces trining in both countries

Would we miss a few rockets - probably- but most would be returned to dust.

Their should not be a ground war by any means- that dirt and sand is worthless- there's enough oil right now -with or without them.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings, but here is some of the latest news regarding this issue.  


The Iranian government, through a website proxy, has laid out the legal and religious justification for the destruction of Israel and the slaughter of its people.
The doctrine includes wiping out Israeli assets and Jewish people worldwide.

Calling Israel a danger to Islam, the conservative website Alef, with ties to Iran's supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, said the opportunity must not be lost to remove "this corrupting material. It is a "'jurisprudential justification" to kill all the Jews and annihilate Israel, and in that, the Islamic government of Iran must take the helm."

The article, written by Alireza Forghani, an analyst and a strategy specialist in Khamenei's camp, now is being run on most state-owned sites, including the Revolutionary Guards' Fars News Agency, showing that the regime endorses this doctrine.

Read the previous report from WND, when Iran warned about a coming great event.

Because Israel is going to attack Iran's nuclear facilities, Iran is justified in launching a pre-emptive, cataclysmic attack against the Jewish state, the doctrine argues.

On Friday, in a major speech at prayers, Khamenei announced that Iran will support any nation or group that attacks the "cancerous tumor" of Israel. Though his statement was seen by some in the West as fluff, there is substance behind it.


"Fluff" or a portent of things to come? I hope it is but fluff.

Quote from: Windpower on February 06, 2012, 11:18:30 AM

/\
   
This is who has 100 to 200 nuclear weapons

Parked and used as a defensive deterrent. 

If a madman confronts me with a loaded gun, pointed at my head, and tells me he is going to annihilate me, I am not going to wait for him to pull the trigger to determine the validity of his claim. 

I found this to be an interesting article...

WARVANGELICALS

By Coach Dave Daubenmire
January 19, 2012
NewsWithViews.com

I want you to know right up front that I am not a pacifist.

I believe in a strong military, and that national defense is one of the Constitutional responsibilities of our government. When a "terrorist" blows up a group of people He should be swiftly put to death.

I believe in a strong national defense and that our obligation is to America first.

But I do not believe in continuous wars, especially the politically-correct ones.

You know what I am talking about.

The types of wars we fight today are, for the most part, offensive, even though our leaders try to convince us that they are necessary for our defense.

Most are not. At least not in my life time. America has been at war somewhere in the world for the entirety of my 59 years on this earth. WWI was known as "the war to end all wars," which of course it didn't. It was just a slogan. Americans like slogans. Slogans often masquerade the real issue and make us feel better about jumping on the bandwagon..

The war on terror, the war on drugs, the war on poverty, and the war on ignorance are all nothing more than sloganeering. It is high time the American people came to the realization that each one of those wars was never engaged with victory as the goal. It was the fighting of the war, the funding of the war, and the perpetuation of the war that they were interested in.

Billions of dollars have been thrown down a rat-holes fighting wars that they knew could not be won. And many became rich. The same applies to military wars.

Today we continue to fight in Afghanistan even though America is insolvent.

No one can tell you why we are there. I think it somehow connects to 19 Saudis flying planes into the Twin Towers back in 2001 and "The War on Terror", but that is just a guess.

Somewhere along the line somebody figured out that there were a lot of dollars to be made in war. Bullets and bombs were needed for war and a sinister group of warmongers figured out a way to make millions by performing their "civic duty" by supplying the ammo...often to both sides.

Christian/conservative Republicans are the greatest promoters of this perpetual-state-of-war. They serve the Prince of Peace by cheering, and voting, for war.

Someone coined the term "Warvangelicals." They are determined to evangelize the world through the barrel of a rifle. Jesus warned us to be careful...those who live by the sword shall die by the sword.

If you listen closely you will hear the rattle of death reverberating through the American economy. Misuse of the "sword" is bringing death to America.

Wars will not destroy America, but paying for them will. Will the Republican Party even permit you to be a member if you happen to be against the wars?

I am for a strong military, but am against an ever-increasing Department of Defense budget. Did you know that America has military facilities in over 138 different countries including 218 in Germany, 115 in Japan, and 86 in South Korea? "War-mongers", not liberators,is what the Eastern World calls us.

We have nearly 1.5 million Americans currently serving in the Armed Forces. Nearly 20% of them are deployed overseas. This "Policeman of the World" approach is enriching the Industrial/Military complex, but busting the banks of the American people. Over 400,000 Americans are enriching the economies of other nations through their deployment.

The world has changed, but America is stuck in the "Cold-War" mindset. Why is it the job of Americans to pay for the defense of Germany...or Japan...or South Korea? The American economic coffers are being bled dry. "Those who live by the sword..."

How did war become a Christian/Conservative value?

Christians are soooo confused. Willfully ignorant might be a more appropriate description. Flag-waving Christians are the most ardent supporters of military intervention. Sadly, they know nothing of the theory of just war.

The Principles of Just Wars are:

1. Just cause/right intention: A just war must be fought only for purposes of self-defense against armed attack or to right a serious wrong.
2. Proper authority: A war is just only if waged by a legitimate authority.
3. Last resort: A just war must be the last resort; all peaceful options must be exhausted before the use of force can be justified.
4. Probability of success: There must be a reasonable chance of success; deaths and injury that result from a hopeless cause cannot be morally justified.
5. Beneficial outcome: The outcome of the war must be better than the situation that would exist had the war not taken place.
6. Proportionality: The violence and destruction must be proportional to the injury suffered.Does that sound to you like any of the "conflicts" that we have recently found ourselves embroiled in? America has not fought a "just war" since WWII.

Now, Evangelical favorite Rick Santorum wants to bomb Iran.

My greatest concern from a military point of view is not that Iran may bomb us, but that we are vulnerable to an attack here at home. Fighting in Afghanistan, or keeping Iran from getting a bomb, will not increase security here at home. The enemy is already amongst us. Perhaps we can catch them at the airport!

(Oh I am going to lose half of my friends because of what I am about to say...but I've got to say it.)

Much of the reason we are such interventionalists in the Middle East is the position held by most Evangelicals that we have a religious obligation to defend Israel. To say otherwise is to be called "anti-Semitic," "anti-Israel," or "un-Biblical." Listen to how often the Republican candidates mention the word "Israel." This a Pavlovian trick that makes Evangelicals mouth's water.

I am not anti-Israel nor anti-Semitic. I am pro-America. If we don't return to an America-first policy we won't be able to defend ourselves, let alone our friends in the Middle East.

America has spent a generation arming Israel. Estimates are that Israel is currently in possession of as many as 400 nuclear warheads. American foreign aid to Israel paid for most of their weaponry. They are far and away the most powerful, well armed military in the Middle East.

I understand that God has an "everlasting covenant" with Israel. I understand that those who "bless Israel" will be blessed. I understand that Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East. But I can not find one Biblical admonition to "protect" Israel. I do find the Lord asking us to "pray for the peace of Jerusalem." Do we "bless Israel" by sending foreign aid to her enemies?

Is it the obligation of the US Government to defend the nation of Israel? The Covenant was a Covenant between God and Israel. God will keep His promise. Why do Christians see it as our obligation to do for Israel what God has promised HE will do? A broken, financially bankrupt America cannot protect Israel. Only God can do that.

The Kingdom of God is a Spiritual Kingdom, not a natural one. It is the "Spiritual Israel" that God has made the Covenant with. Remember, He told us that "My Kingdom is not of this world." It is to natural-Israel that Jesus will return and set up his "everlasting Kingdom." Does He need our intervention to help him keep His Word?

Remember that popular bumper sticker after 911...THE POWER OF PRIDE? Perhaps that is our problem.

Warvangelicals are more concerned with protecting Israel than they are in protecting America. There is nothing "Christian" about invading a sovereign nation and killing innocent women and children. Has the American military now become the "Army of God."

It is not popular to say it in Evangelical circles, but Christians should not rejoice in the killing of innocent Muslim women and children. Each one is a potential child of the Living God and Christians should be more interested in flooding the Middle East with Bibles rather than bombs. Just War...remember? Currently, they are more interested in "spreading democracy" than they are in spreading the Gospel.

God is judging America, not because we are turning our backs on Israel, but because we are a decadent, insolent, greedy, blood-thirsty nation that winks at the shedding of innocent blood in the womb, while we "high-five" the killing of innocent children in other parts of the world. We have rejected God. Our works are "continuously evil in His sight" and our hands are stained with innocent blood.

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: Deut. 30:19.

America is dying because we have chosen death and Warvangelicals are the varsity cheerleaders of the War Party.

There, I said it. Are we still friends?

© 2012 Dave Daubenmire - All Rights Reserved

Coach Dave Daubenmire, founder and President of Pass The Salt Ministries www.ptsalt.com and Minutemen United www.minutemenunited.org, is host of the high octane Pass The Salt radio show heard in Columbus, Ohio.

In 1999 Coach Daubenmire was sued by the ACLU for praying with his teams while coaching high school in Ohio. He now spends his energy fighting for Christian principles in the public domain.

E-Mail: coach@ptsalt.com

Attacking innocents, rescuers and funerals, we are not making any friends in the area.  No wonder we have an unlimited supply of ones (labeled terrorists --or are they freedom fighters?) who do not like us.

http://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/2012/02/04/obama-terror-drones-cia-tactics-in-pakistan-include-targeting-rescuers-and-funerals/

There is a lot of information out there, a lot of it is eloquently presented. There is only
one problem. How can you tell who is telling the truth, and who is lying?
And that only addresses the information that lies in those two catagories. ie: true/false
There is still a huge amount of data left over that is of undetermined value.
Bruce

Quote from: Woodsrule on February 06, 2012, 05:11:20 PM
Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings, but here is some of the latest news regarding this issue.  


The Iranian government, through a website proxy, has laid out the legal and religious justification for the destruction of Israel and the slaughter of its people.
The doctrine includes wiping out Israeli assets and Jewish people worldwide.

Calling Israel a danger to Islam, the conservative website Alef, with ties to Iran's supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, said the opportunity must not be lost to remove "this corrupting material. It is a "'jurisprudential justification" to kill all the Jews and annihilate Israel, and in that, the Islamic government of Iran must take the helm."

The article, written by Alireza Forghani, an analyst and a strategy specialist in Khamenei's camp, now is being run on most state-owned sites, including the Revolutionary Guards' Fars News Agency, showing that the regime endorses this doctrine.

Read the previous report from WND, when Iran warned about a coming great event.

Because Israel is going to attack Iran's nuclear facilities, Iran is justified in launching a pre-emptive, cataclysmic attack against the Jewish state, the doctrine argues.

On Friday, in a major speech at prayers, Khamenei announced that Iran will support any nation or group that attacks the "cancerous tumor" of Israel. Though his statement was seen by some in the West as fluff, there is substance behind it.


"Fluff" or a portent of things to come? I hope it is but fluff.

This is propaganda spun by the NeoCon website WND  -- pathetic



You remember the NeoCons they were the ones that propagandized the non-existant "Weapons of mass destruction in Iraq"
that had many idiots p'ing their pants about "the smoking gun that could come in the form of a mushroom cloud"

Israel is the country that is NOT a signatory to the Nuclear Nonpoliferation treaty. They are the country that illegally and clandestinly created nuclear weapons defying the NPT

Israel is the criminal country not Iran. Iran has complied with the requirements of the NPT from day one.

Israel has never allowed IAEA ispection of their Dimona facility.

Iran has been at war with any other country in hundreds of years unless attacked first by the US backed Iraq

Israel deliberately attacked the USS Liberty knowing full well it was a US ship -- there is no doubt about this 

Israel  bombed US and British Hotels in Egypt during the Lavon Affair to make it look as if the Arab's were doing it -- but they got caught that time.


Alireza Forghani is BLOGGER that lives in Iran -- he has no ties to the Iranian leadership at all



You want war ?

Scroll to the bottom and see the reality


http://www.veteranstoday.com/2012/02/02/fl-speaks-reader-driven-news/



NeoNons and war mongers disgust me




 

 

"Warvangelicals"

it fits

I have one in my family -- we don't talk anymore at her request

Quote from: Windpower on February 07, 2012, 09:28:57 AM
Israel is the country that is NOT a signatory to the Nuclear Nonpoliferation treaty. They are the country that illegally and clandestinly created nuclear weapons defying the NPT

True.

Quote from: Windpower on February 07, 2012, 09:28:57 AM

Israel is the criminal country not Iran. Iran has complied with the requirements of the NPT from day one.

False.  You just very aptly and observantly stated in the exact line above that they did not sign the Nuclear non proliferation treaty.  Also Iran was consistently found in violation of the NPT.
http://www.iaea.org/Publications/Documents/Board/2003/gov2003-75.pdf

Quote from: Windpower on February 07, 2012, 09:28:57 AM

Israel has never allowed IAEA ispection of their Dimona facility.

True.

Quote from: Windpower on February 07, 2012, 09:28:57 AM

Iran has been at war with any other country in hundreds of years unless attacked first by the US backed Iraq 

Lets just do the last hundred since 1912, The ottoman empire, Russia, Britain, and the U.S..

Quote from: Windpower on February 07, 2012, 09:28:57 AM
Israel deliberately attacked the USS Liberty knowing full well it was a US ship -- there is no doubt about this 

Wow.  That boggles the mind how that is plausible to you.  Every recording of the incident showed that they thought it was an Egyptian ship.  In what way that you would think a country would actively attack one ally ship while accepting constant aid and assistance from thousands of others.  In addition to that, they were in constant contact with the U.S. government because it was the closest we ever came to global thermonuclear war because of the U.S.S.R.  It was the highest defcon status since the Cuban missile crisis on our allies behalf, yet it is somehow plausible to you that in the middle of all that they just felt like killing a few Americans, many of who were actually fighting for the Israelis. 

Quote from: Windpower on February 07, 2012, 09:28:57 AM
Israel  bombed US and British Hotels in Egypt during the Lavon Affair to make it look as if the Arab's were doing it -- but they got caught that time.

Semi True. You should actually read what you post though. They bombed a post office and libraries, no Hotels.  They timed the bombs to cause little damage and no injuries.  It was a horrible thing to do.  For the next 50 years they have been one of the U.S.'s strongest allies.

Quote from: Windpower on February 07, 2012, 09:28:57 AM

You want war ?

NO.  I don't want war.  I especially think the U.S. shouldn't be involved in a war.  I don't think anyone plausibly believes that Iran's nuclear program is for civilian purposes.  They are an enemy of the U.S.. They have been for over 30 years.  It is in our interest that they don't get nuclear capabilities.  It is in most of the regions interest that they don't get nuclear capabilities.  When Iraq tried to get nukes the Iranians, Saudis, and everyone else in the region supported the Israelis taking them out.  When Syria tried to get them, same thing.  Now it is the Iranians turn.

Also the NPT did not come into effect until 1970, by almost all reports Israel had nuclear weapons long before that, rendering it moot.  The only thing signing the treaty would have done would have had them declare it publicly.

Thanks for clearing that up Squirl.
Bruce

Quote from: Windpower


This is propaganda spun by the NeoCon website WND  -- pathetic

Are you saying that khamenei did not say that just because it appeared on WND? 

OK... how about the Sydney Herald : http://www.smh.com.au/world/khamenei-vows-to-fight-cancerous-tumour-israel-20120204-1qymh.html

Washington Post?  : http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/iran-says-it-launched-satellite/2012/02/03/gIQARNuDmQ_story.html

PBS?  : http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/world/jan-june12/iran1_02-03.html

Next.

   I sometimes wonder if the 'cold war' is really is over.

   I ponder over many things I've observed in the few years I've been on this Earth.

   And I sometimes find myself foundering in my own thoughts.

   In the international arena, what do we really expect from each other?

   And why are there so many useful idiots?





  sparks
 

After watching this BBC video there can be little doubt that Israel attacked the USS Liberty on purpose.
Listen to the  US Naval officers, US Intelligence officers and the victims testimony. 

Listen to Captain McGonagle call for Israel to acknowledge and appologise for the attack.

It isn't just me saying Israel did this heinous act on purpose, it is virtually everyone that lived it.


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3319663041501647311#



How do you know they are liars -- because they have been proven to LIE

Have people forgotten the "weapons of mass destruction" lies about Iraq already ?  How about the USS Maine in Cuba, how about the lies about the "Gulf of Tonkin attack" that never happened

Tens of thousands of US soldiers have died for LIES, Millions of innocent people, men women and children have been killed in Viet Nam and the middle east --

for what, for what ? 



Iran our enemy ? maybe with good reason since the US CIA overthrew lawfully elected Prime Minister Mohammad Mosaddegh through a coup d'etat and installed the US puppet dictator that murderously repressed Iran for decades

not even WIKI denies this


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Mosaddegh

quote
His administration introduced a wide range of social reforms but is most notable for its nationalization of the Iranian oil industry, which had been under British control since 1913 through the Anglo-Persian Oil Company (APOC/AIOC) (later British Petroleum or BP).[1]

Mosaddegh was removed from power in a coup on 19 August 1953, organised and carried out by the United States CIA at the request of the British MI6 which chose Iranian General Fazlollah Zahedi to succeed Mosaddegh.[2]
unquote

more declassified info here:

http://www.nytimes.com/library/world/mideast/iran-cia-intro.pdf


So are we in the US going to be duped again and allow or even condone a war of aggression against Iran who present no more danger to us than the people in "Communist Menace" Viet Nam

Obama declares Iran threat a National emergency (Monday C-Span)

The executive order directs all government agencies to respond immediately to the threat. It invokes the authority of the 2012 National Defense Authorization Act (which just passed with the 'authority' given to the president to lock up or kill any US citizen at will) The NDAA also gives the President the power to launch military action against any nation without the approval of Congress.

[embed=425,349]http://youtu.be/f23uQr7TIMo[/embed]





and this from our 'friends' at the Brookings Institute from a 2009 paper:

"Which Path to Persia ? Options for a New American Strategy Toward Iran"

--looks like the plan is moving down the path quite well

'...it is not impossible that Tehran might take some action that would justify an American invasion. And it is certainly the case that if Washington sought such a provocation, it could take actions that might make it more likely that Tehran would do so (although being too obvious about this could nullify the provocation). However, since it would be up to Iran to make the provocation move (...), the United States would never know for sure when it would get the requisite Iranian provocation. In fact, it might never come at all.'

With provocation, the international diplomatic and domestic political requirements of an invasion would be mitigated, and the more outrageous the Iranian provocation (and the less that the United States is seen to be goading Iran), the more these challenges would be diminished. In the absence of a sufficiently horrific provocation, meeting these requirements would be daunting.'

(another option)

'Something on the order of an Iranian-backed 9/11, in which the plane wore Iranian markings and Tehran boasted about its sponsorship.(...). The entire question of "options" becomes irrelevant at that point: what American president could refrain from an invasion after the Iranians had just killed several thousand American civilians in an attack in the United States itself?'

complete paper here:

http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/Files/rc/papers/2009/06_iran_strategy/06_iran_strategy.pdf

At this point it does not matter why Iran hates all of the west, especially the US.  We can't fix it.  Never will. 

They have vowed to destroy Israel, and anyone who supports them.  They have vowed to destroy us.  Their leader reaffirmed this committment in a recorded statement. 

They can not be allowed to have a nuclear weapon.  Our politicians, being as PC as they possibly can, have already allowed this to progress too far. 

Quote from: NM_Shooter on February 08, 2012, 10:04:55 AM
At this point it does not matter why Iran hates all of the west, especially the US.  We can't fix it.  Never will. 

They have vowed to destroy Israel, and anyone who supports them.  They have vowed to destroy us.  Their leader reaffirmed this committment in a recorded statement. 

They can not be allowed to have a nuclear weapon.  Our politicians, being as PC as they possibly can, have already allowed this to progress too far.

Your solution, then ?

All I can say is I am glad that my trust isn't in man or his wicked plans...  this world is only my temporary home   :)

38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.  Romans 8:38-40

Windpower, you really need to review what you post.

I was only able to watch about half of the hour long movie you posted on the Liberty friendly fire incident.  There was a lot about how there were mistakes and they didn't publicize a friendly fire incident in a war which people don't like to acknowledge we were involved.  Big shocker.  The fact that you are willing to ignore that we were protecting them from the russians on their behalf and were directly working with them the whole time is irrational.  At no point have you given a motive other than "because people lie."   Those sailors lost their lives by being caught in the fog of war.  They should have received all the medals, honors and payments they got and probably more.  The fact that friendly fire incidents are downplayed by all governments involved is not a conspiracy, it hurts moral and no one likes to talk about it.  But if that is what you want to believe, go ahead.


The other point of why you need to review what you actually post is the C-Span clip states that the national emergency declaration was under the IEEPA not the NDAA.  It is in the first 30 seconds of the clip.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Emergency_Economic_Powers_Act

This has been the major topic of the news this month and I thought at some point someone would post it. This was already done a few weeks ago, they simply had a clarification in the language.  This was what sent the Rial into freefall this month.  It has lost almost half its value in a month.  The sanction was that it declared that U.S. banks couldn't deal with the central bank of Iran, which all oil payments have to clear through.  This has essentially put a de facto embargo on Iranian oil.  They have already started to default on payment for food shipments.  Their population will soon start to starve.  I have already heard reports of food shortages.  Like I said, I feel bad for them.  We did the same thing to N. Korea. We sanctioned them into near bankruptcy, they developed nuclear weapons anyway and let massive amounts of their population starve to death for it.  Now it is just another enemy of the U.S. with a Nuke selling the technology to other enemies of the U.S..

In full disclosure, I have had discussions with a member of the Justice Department team drafting the language of the Iranian sanctions.


So these people are supposed to be our friends?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_hostage_crisis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_attack_on_British_embassy_in_Iran

Or was it just our fault?  Maybe it never really happened and our government was behind it the whole time?

Are you saying that khamenei did not say that just because it appeared on WND? 

OK... how about the Sydney Herald : http://www.smh.com.au/world/khamenei-vows-to-fight-cancerous-tumour-israel-20120204-1qymh.html

Washington Post?  : http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/iran-says-it-launched-satellite/2012/02/03/gIQARNuDmQ_story.html

PBS?  : http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/world/jan-june12/iran1_02-03.html

Next.

Shooter,  You won't get a reply on this because it happens to be the truth. When the "Neo cons" at PBS  report this, they must be lying, just like all of the other news agencies. Just because folks don't want to admit that we are at war with radicals and will be for perpetuity, doesn't make it so. Nice job finding all of those subversive, right wing links ;)

I agree with The Moorer Commission

quote
The "Moorer Commission" (Chaired by Adm. Moorer) investigated the attack and made the following findings:

"We, the undersigned, having undertaken an independent investigation of Israel's attack on USS Liberty, including eyewitness testimony from surviving crewmembers, a review of naval and other official records, an examination of official statements by the Israeli and American governments, a study of the conclusions of all previous official inquiries, and a consideration of important new evidence and recent statements from individuals having direct knowledge of the attack or the cover up, hereby find the following:

1. That on June 8, 1967, after eight hours of aerial surveillance, Israel launched a two-hour air and naval attack against USS Liberty, the world's most sophisticated intelligence ship, inflicting 34 dead and 174 wounded American servicemen (a casualty rate of seventy percent, in a crew of 294);

2. That the Israeli air attack lasted approximately 25 minutes, during which time unmarked Israeli aircraft dropped napalm canisters on USS Liberty's bridge, and fired 30mm cannons and rockets into our ship, causing 821 holes, more than 100 of which were rocket-size; survivors estimate 30 or more sorties were flown over the ship by a minimum of 12 attacking Israeli planes which were jamming all five American emergency radio channels;

3. That the torpedo boat attack involved not only the firing of torpedoes, but the machine-gunning of Liberty's firefighters and stretcher-bearers as they struggled to save their ship and crew; the Israeli torpedo boats later returned to machine-gun at close range three of the Liberty's life rafts that had been lowered into the water by survivors to rescue the most seriously wounded;


4. That there is compelling evidence that Israel's attack was a deliberate attempt to destroy an American ship and kill her entire crew; evidence of such intent is supported by statements from Secretary of State Dean Rusk, Undersecretary of State George Ball, former CIA director Richard Helms, former NSA directors Lieutenant General William Odom, USA (Ret.), Admiral Bobby Ray Inman, USN (Ret.), and Marshal Carter; former NSA deputy directors Oliver Kirby and Major General John Morrison, USAF (Ret.); and former Ambassador Dwight Porter, U.S. Ambassador to Lebanon in 1967;

5. That in attacking USS Liberty, Israel committed acts of murder against American servicemen and an act of war against the United States;

6. That fearing conflict with Israel, the White House deliberately prevented the U.S. Navy from coming to the defense of USS Liberty by recalling Sixth Fleet military rescue support while the ship was under attack; evidence of the recall of rescue aircraft is supported by statements of Captain Joe Tully, Commanding Officer of the aircraft carrier USS Saratoga, and Rear Admiral Lawrence Geis, the Sixth Fleet carrier division commander, at the time of the attack; never before in American naval history has a rescue mission been cancelled when an American ship was under attack;

7. That although Liberty was saved from almost certain destruction through the heroic efforts of the ship's Captain, William L. McGonagle (MOH), and his brave crew, surviving crewmembers were later threatened with "court-martial, imprisonment or worse" if they exposed the truth; and were abandoned by their own government;

8. That due to the influence of Israel's powerful supporters in the United States, the White House deliberately covered up the facts of this attack from the American people;

9. That due to continuing pressure by the pro-Israel lobby in the United States, this attack remains the only serious naval incident that has never been thoroughly investigated by Congress; to this day, no surviving crewmember has been permitted to officially and publicly testify about the attack;

10. That there has been an official cover-up without precedent in American naval history; the existence of such a cover-up is now supported by statements of Rear Admiral Merlin Staring, USN (Ret.), former Judge Advocate General of the Navy; and Captain Ward Boston, USN, (Ret.), the chief counsel to the Navy's 1967 Court of Inquiry of Liberty attack;

11. That the truth about Israel's attack and subsequent White House cover-up continues to be officially concealed from the American people to the present day and is a national disgrace;

12. That a danger to our national security exists whenever our elected officials are willing to subordinate American interests to those of any foreign nation, and specifically are unwilling to challenge Israel's interests when they conflict with American interests; this policy, evidenced by the failure to defend USS Liberty and the subsequent official cover-up of the Israeli attack, endangers the safety of Americans and the security of the United States.

WHEREUPON, we, the undersigned, in order to fulfill our duty to the brave crew of USS Liberty and to all Americans who are asked to serve in our Armed Forces, hereby call upon the Department of the Navy, the Congress of the United States and the American people to immediately take the following actions:

FIRST: That a new Court of Inquiry be convened by the Department of the Navy, operating with Congressional oversight, to take public testimony from surviving crewmembers; and to thoroughly investigate the circumstances of the attack on the USS Liberty, with full cooperation from the National Security Agency, the Central Intelligence Agency and the military intelligence services, and to determine Israel's possible motive in launching said attack on a U.S. naval vessel;

SECOND: That every appropriate committee of the Congress of the United States investigate the actions of the White House and Defense Department that prevented the rescue of the USS Liberty, thereafter threatened her surviving officers and men if they exposed the truth, and covered up the true circumstances of the attack from the American people; and

THIRD: That the eighth day of June of every year be proclaimed to be hereafter known as

USS LIBERTY REMEMBRANCE DAY, in order to commemorate USS Liberty's heroic crew; and to educate the American people of the danger to our national security inherent in any passionate attachment of our elected officials for any foreign nation.

We, the undersigned, hereby affix our hands and seals, this 22nd day of October, 2003.

Admiral Thomas H. Moorer, USN, Ret.
Former Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff

General of Marines Raymond G. Davis, USMC, MOH

Former Commandant of the United States Marine Corps

Merlin Staring
Rear Admiral Merlin Staring, USN, Ret.,
Former Judge Advocate General of the Navy,

James Akins
Ambassador James Akins, Ret.,
Former United States Ambassador to Saudi Arabia"

unquote


Also in regards to the Russians. They sent a Destroyer 626/4 to the aid of  the Liberty -- by some acccounts that is why the Israeli's called off the attack.

Don 't tell me I need to review my posts. Perhaps you should not comment on things you haven't completely viewed

BTW you assert many things but almost never back them up with substantial sources. And that is OK but your assertions are just your opinion  

Wow.  That's a lot of bullcrap!

What, exactly, does this have to do with Iran having the bomb?

I'm deducting that you think it is okay for Iran to have the bomb because you share a common hate of Israel?

Oh... and  "BTW you assert many things but almost never back them up with substantial sources."

That's a hoot of a thing to say. 

The original topic question has been lost in a barrage of old news. The past is the past, a series of done deeds, some good, some foolish, some mistakes. The past can't be changed, although some do try to rewrite history to suit their own purposes.

What would be the best thing to have happen today? I believe the original question was what should Israel do? But then I sometimes get narrow focused tunnel vision.

    The United States of America survived years and years of the cold war with Russia because of the threat of mutual destruction. If either side launched an attack everyone on both sides of the conflict perished.
    The Ayatollah Ali Khameni has no qualms with all the Iranian people dying.
    If we do not kill them they will kill us. All of us every man woman and child.

I can still bring a little common sense to the table when reading a document.
So the 6th fleet supposedly checked with Washington D.C. before helping another one of it's ships under attack.  Then D.C. stopped the U.S. from helping its own ship because it was afraid of one of the smallest nations on the planet?

That is known as the tail wagging the dog.

And Yes you should still read your what you actually post.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident#Aftermath_of_the_attack
From the link you posted, the first people on scene where two Israeli helicopters offering assistance, not the Russians.
So our sworn enemy, the Russians, saved the Americans from the Israelis?  And the Israelis knowingly attacked the largest and most powerful nuclear nation in the world, their only ally in the middle of a war in which we were helping them, but they were afraid of the Russians?  And they stopped that attack in the middle after not a single one of their planes was shot down or ships sunk?



Carla, that is a great question.  What does this have to do with today?  I would say absolutely nothing, but then again I'm not the one that brought it into the discussion.  Although I am the one that keeps pointing out how little sense it makes, so that is my fault and I will stop.

I am also not the one who stated that Iran has been in full compliance with the IAEA on their nuclear program. I made the bald assertion that they were not and have consistently lied and failed in compliance .  If only I had posted a link to a substantial source like an IAEA report stating that.

I also made the assertion that they are not been a peace loving nation for hundreds of years and have been at war in WWI, WWII, and multiple acts against the U.S. or even the U.K.  If only I had posted some type of substantial sources for those.  I guess this wouldn't count. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Praying_Mantis   If only I could find some basis of reference for an act of war in which we cut diplomatic ties and have had relations continue to deteriorate over say a 30 year span.  If I find a link I will post it.

I am also the one who had the opinion that this should be handled the way it has always been handled in the past whenever any country in the area tried to develop a nuclear program.  The Israelis bomb it out of existence and all the rest of the countries in the Middle East support Israel.  If only I had posted some type of reference for that assertion.


But I'm sure we can get back to the conspiracy theory from what happened in the 60's.

Back to the topic of today.  Could you imagine a nuclear nation that undergoes an Arab Spring.? A complete toppling of the government and overthrow of power with nuclear weapons?  We at least had the option of helping the rebels in Libya, Egypt, or Syria.

Quote from: Squirl on February 09, 2012, 02:02:44 AM
Back to the topic of today.  Could you imagine a nuclear nation that undergoes an Arab Spring.? A complete toppling of the government and overthrow of power with nuclear weapons?  We at least had the option of helping the rebels in Libya, Egypt, or Syria.

Exactly.  The current regime is unstable, violent, and has vowed to cut out the cancer of Israel, and all those who help her (US).  Can you imagine if it were to be overtaken by a less friendly group?

We need to remove their ability to build a nuke.  Immediately.  Hopefully we know exactly where the work is being done. 

"The United States of America survived years and years of the cold war with Russia because of the threat of mutual destruction. If either side launched an attack everyone on both sides of the conflict perished."

Bob you make a good point

The same would apply in the ME

IF Iran had nuclear weapons it would keep the Israel in place.  The people of Iran are not insane. They would not 'commit suicide'.

The world lived with hundreds of nuclear missiles targeted on virtually every major city in the US and USSR for decades.



So now we are going to risk global thermonuclear war because of rhetoric from unelected religious cleric ?

Russia and China have both stated unequivocally that they will not stand by and allow Iran to be attacked. Russia has flatly stated that and attack on Iran will be considered an attack on Russia. -- They have backed these statements with votes in the UN

Do those of you who advocate an attack on Iran think Russia and China are bluffing ?   

My point about the USS liberty is that if we don't learn from history we are doomed to repeat it.

Even if you erroneously think the Admiral Moorer and his commission were mistaken, the fact is that US fighters were airborn on their way to attack Egypt -- it could have been WWIII then, and the world would be very different today-- if there were any humans still alive

Read some history

WWI

Archduke Ferdinand was murdered by a disident Serb (who was immediately arrested) -- this lead to Austria forcing Serbia into a a series of demands that were nearly impossible to comply with. The Austrain empire then declared war on Serbia and invaded
(thinking they would grab more land for the empire in a little dust-up)

This lead eventually to (from wikipedia)

:The war had profound economic consequences. Of the 60 million European soldiers who were mobilised from 1914 to 1918, 8 million were killed, 7 million were permanently disabled, and 15 million were seriously injured. Germany lost 15.1% of its active male population, Austria–Hungary lost 17.1%, and France lost 10.5%.[214] About 750,000 German civilians died from starvation caused by the British blockade during the war.[215] By the end of the war, famine had killed approximately 100,000 people in Lebanon.[216] The best estimates of the death toll from the Russian famine of 1921 run from 5 million to 10 million people.[217] By 1922, there were between 4.5 million and 7 million homeless children in Russia as a result of nearly a decade of devastation from World War I, the Russian Civil War, and the subsequent famine of 1920–1922.[218] Numerous anti-Soviet Russians fled the country after the Revolution; by the 1930s the northern Chinese city of Harbin had 100,000 Russians.[219] Thousands more emigrated to France, England, and the United States.

Diseases flourished in the chaotic wartime conditions. In 1914 alone, louse-borne epidemic typhus killed 200,000 in Serbia.[220] From 1918 to 1922, Russia had about 25 million infections and 3 million deaths from epidemic typhus.[221] Whereas before World War I Russia had about 3.5 million cases of malaria, its people suffered more than 13 million cases in 1923.[222] In addition, a major influenza epidemic spread around the world. Overall, the 1918 flu pandemic killed at least 50 million people.[223][224]

Lobbying by Chaim Weizmann and fear that American Jews would encourage the USA to support Germany culminated in the British government's Balfour Declaration of 1917, endorsing creation of a Jewish homeland in Palestine.[225] A total of more than 1,172,000 Jewish soldiers served in the Allied and Central Power forces in World War I, including 275,000 in Austria-Hungary and 450,000 in Czarist Russia.[226]"




This was a much simpler time. Before WWI was were typically regional conflicts with generally narrow effects (horrific exceptions such as the War Against the Northern Aggression are there in history too)

Weapons were developed in WWI that were game changers from previous conflicts. (poison gas, machine guns, aircraft etc) making war a different more leathal and less controlable event.

WWII was even more horific ending with rampant death of civilian populations in Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki


So the question at the top of this thread should be IMO

"Should we risk global thermo nuclear war to attack Iran ? "

Think about this -- the Russians have nuclear subs stationed off both US coasts. We would have a few minutes of warning before our coastal cities and ICBMS would be destroyed.

The world is a very different place and there are weapons of mass destruction  already in place.

   
Anyone that thinks they know the eventual outcome of an attack on a major country, history clearly shows they are mistaken.

Once the dogs of war are unleashed no onecan predict where they will go.


(sorry for the typos not much time this morning)
 

Quote from: Squirl on February 09, 2012, 01:49:51 AM
---- that is my fault and I will stop.

Oh Squirl please don't stop. You do seem to have a quick analytical mind, able to cut through the fog and make some very good points.


Unless I am way off base the statement that windpower made regarding the current Ayatollah  "rhetoric from unelected religious cleric ", well that is a big part of the problem. Any country that is run by unelected people is a tyranny of some kind. Mixing religious beliefs, or worse yet using religion as a basis to run your own country and as the basis of attacks against another country is wrong and stupid. I hope I don't offend any churchgoers, but as far as I am concerned too many people have died uselessly in the name of religion over the centuries. Iran is set up to be run, behind the scenes often, by religious fanatics. Elections have only candidates that belong to the one official party. That's a good way to ensure your will is imposed on the citizens.

From NPR:
.....Ayatollah Ali Khamenei..... is Iran's supreme leader, with all the power that the job title suggests. He controls everything from Iran's nuclear program to full authority over foreign policy.
from  http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=100645236

So if he says he wants to kill Jews, wants to wipe Israel out, why should I not believe him?

Windpower, what would you do if you were in charge of Israel?

???

Oh, and I agree with the statement "the people of Iran are not crazy". It's the religious fanatics like the Ayatollah who holds all the real power who is crazy

The doctrine of Mutually Assured Destruction would lead to exactly that in the Middle East. The difference between the USSR and the US was that both nations were not lead by radical religious leaders. You may argue that certain factions ruled, but none espoused the destruction of other folks simply because of their religion. Now, anyone that thinks that the leadership in Iran would not employ nukes against all of their enemies are wishing for the best, but are ignoring the obvious. Saddamn Hussein employed weapons of mass destruction against the Kurds (gas) and would not have hesitated to nuke his enemies. Iran is no different and, even though we will continue to ignore the sleeping nuke giant there, the Israelis will not.

The point of learning from the past to avoid repeating errors is extremely valid and important. There is much to be learned from the past. However, if we spend too much time arguing over what happened in the past and whose fault it was, we may not spend enough time analyzing today's situation and even less time planning for tomorrow..

Quote from: Windpower on February 09, 2012, 09:52:12 AM
"The United States of America survived years and years of the cold war with Russia because of the threat of mutual destruction. If either side launched an attack everyone on both sides of the conflict perished."

The same would apply in the ME

IF Iran had nuclear weapons it would keep the Israel in place.  The people of Iran are not insane. They would not 'commit suicide'.

This is precisely the point that you keep missing.  Carla summarized it nicely.  The people of Iran don't have control of that weapon, and Iran will use it offensively. 

AMD has "worked" with the U.S. and the U.S.S.R. ... sort of.
We have come to the brink of it not working on almost 6 occasions.  That is the end of human life on this planet almost 6 times in the past 70 years.  The more people that have nuclear capabilities, the more times that is tested on a daily basis.  Anything that has a probability greater than 0, the more times you test it, eventually it will occur.

If we could have prevented the Russians from gaining nuclear weapons 70 years ago, we would have been fools to pass up the opportunity.

Also a conventional weapons strike at a specific site has never been met with the threat of invasion or weapons of mass destruction from China or Russia.  We have attacked Iran a few times in the past 30 years (from the links I had posted) and it never even got a peep out of Russia or China.  I also don't see why the discussion should be "We (the U.S.)" and not "They (the Israelis)".  It's their problem, they should handle it.  Neither side has the logistics or capability of a ground war against the other.

I could see how you would fear that things could quickly spiral out of control.  It happened in the 1973 Arab-Israeli War when Israel went to march on Cairo and Damascus.  The Russians threatened to send in their own troops. To which the Americans did the same.  We were raised to Defcon 3 and loaded up the nukes.  It was one of the few times in the last 70 years.  The only time the world was ever closer to destruction was the Cuban missile crisis.

I could see the scenario were this could happen again. 
Israel strikes Iran's nuclear program.
Iran responds with some type of hidden undeclared WMD (chemical?).
Iran becomes a nice quiet neighborhood for the next 70,000 years.
Israel becomes a nice quiet neighborhood for the next 70,000 years.
15 minutes later the U.S. and Russians decide human life had a nice run, and well that's all folks.

But then again the Iranians would have to decide to 'commit suicide' and they are already rational enough not to do that.

  The point I am trying to make is that the Ayatolla is running the show, "NOT THE IRANIAN POPULATION AS WHOLE".
   And he is crazy enough to end the world as we know it. He thinks that will bring on the secnd coming and the world will become paradise.

    Thanks to all that particpated in this thread. I locked the voting........probably would have happened anyway. I noticed a trend at the beginning of the poll from no/crazy to a majority of yes. Maybe some folks were waiting until enough discussion was there to support their vote.......maybe not. I'm still sticking with the crazy scenario.

    If Israel makes a pre-emptive strike, she will in all likely do it alone (wink wink, nod nod). And in the following 72 hours, a lot of very big decisions are going to be made..........by people that can make the ultimate last big decisions.

    And I've never met any of them...............................





  sparks

Thanks for the topic sparks. It looks like we've all said all that can be said for now.

More information from recently declasified documents about the USS Liberty incident add more evidence that Israel knew it was an American ship

From that 'wild conspiracy rag' the Chicago Tribune



New revelations in attack on American spy ship
Veterans, documents suggest U.S., Israel didn't tell full story of deadly '67 incident

http://www.chicagotribune.com/services/newspaper/eedition/chi-liberty_tuesoct02,0,3794785,full.story

Israeli helicopters to the rescue.... NOT




"3:07 p.m. Israeli helicopters sent to rescue Liberty crewman from the sea arrive and "orbit" the heavily damaged vessel.

3:12 p.m. The helicopters' communications with the ground are intercepted by an American aircraft circling high above the scene. One helicopter pilot reports that he sees an American flag flying from the Liberty's mast.

3:16 p.m. An Israeli ground controller orders the helicopters to return to El Arish

Sources: National Security Agency documents, Tribune reporting

Chicago Tribune"




Mainscream Media Iran Hysteria

@2 minutes

Ronald Burgess Director, Defense Intelligence Agency "the agency assesses that Iran is unlikely to initiate or intentionally provoke a conflict"

Leon Panetta, Secretary of Defense "...the intelligence does not show that they have made the decision to go ahead with the developement of a nuclear weapon"

http://rt.com/news/us-mass-media-iran-095/

Quote from: Windpower on February 24, 2012, 08:23:13 AM
3:07 p.m. Israeli helicopters sent to rescue Liberty crewman  from the sea arrive and "orbit" the heavily damaged vessel.

Do you actually read what you post?

The Russian editorial starts off with a false premise.
Since neither the US military nor intelligence believes Iran could strike America, why do the US media whip up hysteria about Iran.  It quotes two individuals to represent the entire U.S. military and intelligence establishment.  I understand there are conflicting views of individuals in defense and intelligence.

Iran has missile armed submarines and as much of the news has reported in the past few days, capability of using terrorist attacks all over the world.  The article touched on these attacks but said "Tel Aviv" blames Iran.  All the governments in which the attacks occurred blame Iran too.

It is amazing that the editorial completely failed to mention one of the current bases for sanctions on Iran. Some people think Iran has already attempted a strike in the U.S by trying to assassinate an Ambassador to the U.S.  As alleged by the Justice Department.
http://www.justice.gov/opa/documents/us-v-arbabsiar-shakuri-complaint.pdf

The U.S. has been in a quasi war with Iran for 40 years.  This is about letting one of our current and long standing enemies have the ability to get nuclear weapons.

Quote from: Windpower on Yesterday at 04:23:13 AM
3:07 p.m. Israeli helicopters sent to rescue Liberty crewman  from the sea arrive and "orbit" the heavily damaged vessel.

"Do you actually read what you post?"


Well yes, yes I do.

My question is do you read what I have posted ?


3:12 p.m. The helicopters' communications with the ground are intercepted by an American aircraft circling high above the scene. One helicopter pilot reports that he sees an American flag flying from the Liberty's mast.


3:16 p.m. An Israeli ground controller orders the helicopters to return to El Arish


Here Let me help you through this, since you seem to have trouble thinking things through sometimes

Point one: The USS Liberty was FLYING THE AMERICAN FLAG according to one helicopter pilot.

FOUR MINUTES LATER THE HELICOPTERS RETURNED TO BASE

NOT TOO DAMN MUCH RESCUING GOING ON THERE or maybe they chickened out when the crew tuned the 50 BMG (their only armament) on them in self defense

Other witnesses, US NAVY witnesses, said the helicopters were clearly boarding party sent to mop up the survivors thus leaving no witnesses to their despicable attack.



Hope that helps.

Yes.  I did read what you post.  In the other articles you posted, it stated the Americans refused help. Which is completely understandable after what they had been through.  The article you are even relying on states they were there as a rescue mission.

At no point did it state that they were a boarding party to kill everyone.  You just made that junk up because that is what you want to believe.

Nor does it even make the smallest amount of sense.  They attacked with all their flags flying a RADIO ship.  They had these things called radios.  Even all of the articles in support of your position stated that they were radioing the U.S. that the Israelis were attacking.  So what, nobody knew it was them?  Oh and yeah, they were going to send in a helicopter of troops into harms way instead of the three torpedo ships and multiple jets they had?  If your going to make stuff up, have it make a little sense. 

I love how you made bold the exact nonsensical argument.  Why would they have even bothered to report there was an American flag flying when they came up, if they knew it was an American ship the whole time? 

I love conspiracy theories.  All you need is an agenda then disregard all facts and common sense to get to that agenda.  I'm not going to keep going on about this.  Post whatever you like, I won't keep pointing out what little sense it makes.

I am amazed at how far off the original question this continues to be. The original question was a good one, I thought. My simple mind can not fathom what the case of the USS Liberty has anything to do with the OP; "Would it be wise if Israel launched any strike against Iran? " There was a battle going on and as has happened before and will certainly happen again, unfortunate mistakes were made. It must be to muddy the waters and further a theory that to my eyes has no merit. This is entertaining in a way though.

"Yes.  I did read what you post.  In the other articles you posted, it stated the Americans refused help. Which is completely understandable after what they had been through.  The article you are even relying on states they were there as a rescue mission.

At no point did it state that they were a boarding party to kill everyone.  You just made that junk up because that is what you want to believe."


No, I did not make this up. Eyewitness Navy personel saw the armed men on the helos

Look it up 



"Nor does it even make the smallest amount of sense.  They attacked with all their flags flying a RADIO ship.  They had these things called radios.  Even all of the articles in support of your position stated that they were radioing the U.S. that the Israelis were attacking.  So what, nobody knew it was them?  Oh and yeah, they were going to send in a helicopter of troops into harms way instead of the three torpedo ships and multiple jets they had?  If your going to make stuff up, have it make a little sense. "

If you look at the time line and had facts, you would understand that the helicopters were sent in AFTER the torpedo blew a 39 foot hole in the Liberty. They were dead in the water and listing badly. There was no harm's way at that point as all four  50 cals had been destroyed . And most of the crew were injured or dead.

eta typos

                     

"Why would they have even bothered to report there was an American flag flying when they came up, if they knew it was an American ship the whole time? "

Maybe because these helicopter attackers were surprised their orders were to board the ship and mop up the survivors then sink an American ship.

Quote from: NM_Shooter on February 06, 2012, 10:35:59 AM
This is who wants the ultimate weapon :

http://www.wnd.com/2012/02/ayatollah-kill-all-jews-annihilate-israel/

Did Ayatola Really say Kill all Jews and Annihilate Israel ?

By Keith Johnson

The short answer: Absolutely not!

Part of the long answer comes from Muhammad Sahimi, who recently told Antiwar Radio host Scott Horton that the inflammatory article published by World Net Daily (WND), entitled Ayatollah: Kill all Jews, Annihilate Israel is "totally bogus."

Muhammad Sahimi is a Professor of Chemical Engineering and Materials Science at the University of Southern California (USC). He also frequently writes on Iranian politics for Payvand, the Huffington Post, Antiwar.com and several mainstream news outlets. He has a regular column for the Tehran Bureau of the Public Broadcasting Service (PBS) and is fluent in Farsi.

According to Sahimi, the WND piece by Reza Kahlili is based entirely on an article by Alireza Forghani, who is described by Kahlili as "an analyst and a strategy specialist in [Ayatollah Ali] Khamenei's camp."

However, Kahlili provides no proof of this and expects the reader to take his word for it. In response, Sahimi says that Alireza Forghani is nothing more than an "Iranian blogger" who has "no ties to the Iranian government...no official post anywhere...doesn't even have a job."

more here

http://revoltoftheplebs.wordpress.com/2012/02/08/did-the-ayatollah-really-say-kill-all-jews-annihilate-israel/

Quote from: Carla_M on February 25, 2012, 03:34:25 PM
I am amazed at how far off the original question this continues to be.

;D  Welcome to countryplans thread drift.  Some of us get our panties all wadded up in a hurry any time someone brings up the defense of Israel.  Gee... I wonder why? 

You want to see a really crazy thread?  Do a search on the world trade towers.  Have your seat belt on! d*

Quote from: NM_Shooter on February 27, 2012, 06:27:34 PM
;D  Welcome to countryplans thread drift.  Some of us get our panties all wadded up in a hurry any time someone brings up the defense of Israel.  Gee... I wonder why? 

You want to see a really crazy thread?  Do a search on the world trade towers.  Have your seat belt on! d*

Us...Naaaaa [rofl2]