My daughter's '97 4Runner is in serious need of maintenance / repair. Getting quotes around town has my blood boiling. I may end up doing the work myself, as much as I hate it. I'll save enough in labor costs to buy two or three nice toys.
On top of $90 to $110 per hour shop time, they really gouge on parts cost. A steering rack that I can buy at the parts store for $305 will cost me $636 at the garage. Timing belt / water pump kit that I can buy for $225 is $529. Ball joints that I buy for $44 are $108.
Actually, one of the garages told me that to swap out the timing belt, they charge $134 per hour!!!!! That made me mad, as 90% of the work consists of unbolting all the accessories on the front of the truck.
It is tough enough paying these grease monkeys more per hour than I do my doctor. But paying 100% ++ margin on parts is extortion.
I suspect that this is as it is because the shops are full of old cars being fixed, as folks are trying to make their old vehicles run longer rather than buy new during tough times.
I don't know what it's like there, but here there are lots of mechanics that are out of work and set up shade tree shops.
I have a 2003 4runner. Independent, former Toyota dealer mechanic charged me $450.00 to replace belt w/waterpump. Stealership wanted $900.00 for same job.
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/
You can try the link to see if you can get help or suggestions on where to find a reasonable mechanic.
My wife has a Land Rover. I used to not work on it because she's so picky. I do now.
There is a special place in Hell for Land Rover Mechanics!
Some day I'll tell you about the $700.00 fuse.
Thinking this morning about the quote I picked up yesterday.
To replace the lower ball joints and steering rack :
My component cost if I go to Autozone : $393.00
Replacement cost as quoted by the highly rated "Angie's List" shop Hilltop Tire and Automotive : $1224
$831 for 4 hours of work.
I have purchased things and had mechanics only do what I couldn't and gave them the part. They don't like it, but they usually will do it. I found that out when I was complaining about the cost of a part once and the mechanic said, "If you can have it delivered to me the same day, I will use it." I realized same day delivery by courier was usually built into the cost of some parts. A few hundred dollars extra is a ripoff.
Imagine what the quote would be if your daughter called.
I do not usually go to mechanics for what I can do myself. I like knowing my vehicle. Also if it breaks, I have no one to blame but myself.
'I do not usually go to mechanics for what I can do myself. I like knowing my vehicle. Also if it breaks, I have no one to blame but myself'
You're a better man than I, Squirl. I quit tinkering on my vehicle ever since I started depending on it for transportation to work and points/plugs turned into electrical gizmos.....other than filter/fluid changes.....little things.
Had some friends that built their own planes, and even flew them back to OshKosh, but they told me that first flight was a ten on the pucker scale....that'd be me after fiddlin' with my brakes.......I live on a hill.
A good independent mechanic is a wonderful find, but most places I've learned to just back in.......after getting out of the vehicle.
My stubborness on this has reached a head. I decided to do the ball joints and tie rods myself rather than pay $200 an hour to a shop. I already have the tools... impact hammer with forks, an impact wrench, compressor, multiple torque wrenches and a should-have-known-better temperment.
I'm 2.5 hours in, and have both lower ball joints off, both tie rod ends off, and have one new lower ball joint already installed and torqued to spec. My other parts come in tomorrow morning at 0730. I should be done by 10 and on my way to the alignment shop.
My oldest daughter has asked to help. I put her to work.
Next weekend I am doing the timing belt. Weekend after that I am buying a new rifle ;D (I know Just the one!)
Do you know about the Yotatech forums? They are super helpful if you run into problems.
http://www.yotatech.com/f60/
Quote from: NM_Shooter on December 30, 2011, 09:30:18 PM
My stubborness on this has reached a head. I decided to do the ball joints and tie rods myself rather than pay $200 an hour to a shop. I already have the tools... impact hammer with forks, an impact wrench, compressor, multiple torque wrenches and a should-have-known-better temperment.
I'm 2.5 hours in, and have both lower ball joints off, both tie rod ends off, and have one new lower ball joint already installed and torqued to spec. My other parts come in tomorrow morning at 0730. I should be done by 10 and on my way to the alignment shop.
My oldest daughter has asked to help. I put her to work.
Next weekend I am doing the timing belt. Weekend after that I am buying a new rifle ;D (I know Just the one!)
Good for you on all counts (especially the rifle ;D)
I don't mind ball joints or tie rod ends, I can do a brake job in my sleep or U joints or the occasional rear end....but I hate timing belts and I take my hat off to you for that.
I'm a little nervous about the timing belt, as I have to break loose and re-torque the crank nut at 217 ftlbs. I'm having to make a special wrench to allow me to hold the crank pulley to torque it down. I'm not sure I can generate 217 ftlbs on an 18 in handle while holding a 4' slab of 1/4" x 4" bar stock. Maybe I should sell tickets for folks to watch.
Time for a cheater pipe I guess.
I've had my eye on a Savage .22lr BSEV for quite awhile. Looks like it would make a heck of a silhouette gun.
I have a 2002 Ford van that was running lousy while up in SC. After going to several small, inexpensive shops, I brought it to Ford. One small shop even said there was nothing wrong with it! Ford dinged me almost $1000, but it does run perfectly now. I'll tackle pretty much anything that doesn't involve a modern engine and computers. Can someone explain why my Ford has 8 coils, where one used to do the trick? 8 coils at $100 a pop (from Ford). I've replaced 3 so far, and the mechanic told me to plan on gradually replacing all of them. $800 in coils?! When I replace this van in a couple years, look for me to get an old truck, pre-computer.
I find the $100/hr to be amazing. I'm a tool maker by trade, and most shops around here are in the $50-$60 range. We use some very expensive CNC equipment, and it takes 4 years of schooling to become an Journeyman, considered a rank greenhorn in the trade! I'll put my skills up against any mechanic in terms of knowledge required.
Quote from: NM_Shooter on December 30, 2011, 09:30:18 PM
My stubborness on this has reached a head. I decided to do the ball joints and tie rods myself rather than pay $200 an hour to a shop. I already have the tools... impact hammer with forks, an impact wrench, compressor, multiple torque wrenches and a should-have-known-better temperment.
I'm 2.5 hours in, and have both lower ball joints off, both tie rod ends off, and have one new lower ball joint already installed and torqued to spec. My other parts come in tomorrow morning at 0730. I should be done by 10 and on my way to the alignment shop.
My oldest daughter has asked to help. I put her to work.
Next weekend I am doing the timing belt. Weekend after that I am buying a new rifle ;D (I know Just the one!)
Just wondering if that was a coincidence that you are planning on buying a rifle while working on your truck. Just exactly where are you going to place the first shot at on your truck. ;) I assume that you are working on your powerstroke.
No, this our old '97 4Runner. Aside from these issues, the truck's engine and tranny run great, and the body is straight. Had Maaco spray it 2 years ago, and it looks good.
Ball joints and tie rod ends were worn out. I decided to wait on the steering column to see if it really is leaking. Doing the timing belt and water pump next weekend, and just found a shop that will replace the rear bearings and axle seals for $550. I'm going to let them do that. Just drove the truck to the Firestone shop for an alignment. Even with the toe-in off, it drives better.
Looks like I will be out $1000 instead of $2700 to $3200 that the quotes were indicating.
I can't decide if I want a new fly rod or a new gun as a reward for the labor. I'm leaning towards the gun but will ponder on this for a week or so.
After three weeks of diving under old trucks I've got the new old dodge turning right when I turn right. I learned that Dodge used a counterclockwise Saginaw gearbox for 4 year models... so of course my old donor in the weeds was one of those years ::). I bought from the ragjoint through the pump at the junkyard for $170 so I guess the materials were cheap. As for the time, well, I know that part of the truck far better than I ever wanted to :D.
Meanwhile the plastic radiator in the Honda let go. That was $180 and I got it swapped out this afternoon. That was a no brainer.
The newer stuff is more reliable but there is far less I feel comfortable shade treeing.
I can scarcely see anything on the engine in our '06 Honda. The idler for the serpentine fan, etc belt went bad in late Sept. I paid to have it done... about $250 for the arm and a new belt. It was worth it to me; I left it at the shop while I spent some time at the cabin.
Quote from: NM_Shooter on December 31, 2011, 02:56:27 PM
I can't decide if I want a new fly rod or a new gun as a reward for the labor. I'm leaning towards the gun but will ponder on this for a week or so.
All else being equal, the rifle will be more effective than the fly rod should you have to take the truck back to the mechanic.......
Quote from: MushCreek on January 01, 2012, 03:15:45 PM
All else being equal, the rifle will be more effective than the fly rod should you have to take the truck back to the mechanic.......
I think he should get both! ::)
If a replaced part fails two weeks after install. who should pay for:
New part?
Labor to replace?
The repair shop by my house used to stand by their parts and labor for 90 days. I had a water pump go out on an Astro van we had. I replaced it under my shade tree so to speak. 2 weeks later, same thing so I bit the bullet and took it to the shop. They put on a new one. 3 weeks later that one failed also. Brought the car back to them. Replaced it without question or charge. The next day, I got a call from their mechanic. He got to wondering and looked into it.
Turns out that the ORIGINAL owner or shop had discarded a bracket when they replaced it for the first time. This mechanic got the part and put it in no charge. No problems after that.
The new owners of the shop aren't as customer friendly...but I would ask if you had a shop do the work.
Quote from: MikeC on January 03, 2012, 11:56:54 PM
If a replaced part fails two weeks after install. who should pay for:
New part?
Labor to replace?
The shop I go to furnishes a loaner car, has a minimum 90 day parts and labor guarantee. I have been a customer there for close to 20 plus or minus years now. Same owner, some of the same techs (when did a mechanic become a tech?). He just keeps getting bigger and adding on. Auto shop, truck shop, and they are running a full service towing service. People threaten to leave over prices and they do but most come back............
Better hang on to them Rick!
Here are a couple of Land Rover Stories for your amusement:
Land Rover cut off on interstate. My wife was so proud that Land Rover had free towing for life. What she didn't realize was they would only tow to a Land Rover Dealership.
Next morning, the dealership called and said it was ready. I went there with her. I asked what was wrong. They couldn't find anything. It started right up. There was a bad fuse for one of the lights though and they replaced it. The bill $700+.00. I had to go to church the following Sunday to make amends for that conversation.
Land Rover had a bad vibration in the drive shaft. Wife took it to the same dealership against my warnings. They called me and said nothing wrong with the drive shaft but they replaced the windshield wipers and were going to replace the rear brakes. I told them to put the old wipers back on and park it outside and NOT touch it. They said they had already thrown the old blades out. I told them to park it without any wiper blades.
The Bill $400+,00 and they threatened to call the police over that conversation.
I replaced the bad drive shaft, brakes and wiper blades the next day.
Land Rover kept having a dead battery every 2 days. I took it to another Land Rover Dealer and told them to test the electrical system. They called and said charging system was OK but the battery was bad. Picked it up the next day and the new battery was dead.
They were happy I left without paying anything and not hurting anyone.
I traced and replaced a bad air suspension sensor the next day.
Land Rover rear door latch was stuck. Took it to a non Land Rover garage. They took it apart and after a week called and said the latch was unavailable. I picked it up, still in pieces, bungied the door shut, went to Land Rover and bought a latch (They had 6 of them) and put it together.
Before I did that though, I photographed the mess and gave copies to every competing garage in town to use as advertising.
The wife has finally consented to let me repair it since I always have to anyway and she's afraid I'll kill someone otherwise. :-\
Peter every time I drive down the road and see a Land Rover I think of you with the experiences that you had posted earlier. Sorry to add insult to injury. ;)
With my crazy railroad job. Its hours and no set schedule and when you got in, you best be resting for your next trip. I did that for years and years.
Then they changed some rest rules this allowed us more time at home and away from work. This also allowed more time up at the ranch and running back and forth there. I pretty much did not have time to pull wrenches anymore nor was my want too still there I guess. Nor did I want to learn of diagnostic codes and diodes and lap tops hooked to USB ports..... I sort of allowed technology pass me by in the private sector. However my 24/ 7 days job - Locomotives now one the other hand you were always talking to the Power Desk and they are talking you through stuff all the time. We never pulled wrenches, however did - do a lot of resetting of faulted systems and booting computers. This even more made me so not want to do the new stuff for myself.
Was I ever into pulling wrenches? Yes I was. Do I still? Yes some. I have a big roll around tool box and the one mounted on top. I got wrenches hung for peg boards and a tool box or two in the Powerstroke. But if I need something fixed today or tomorrow. I have had to come to Country Repair on the cellphone speed dial.
The other thing, the shop I take stuff to is independent. It does not have Ford, Chevy or Dodge on a $100,000 read-a-board sign. Nor does the shop have to net the dealership $$$$ annually. We have our share of big dealerships here that do that as well. You drive in for a service and dive out with $100 windshield wipers and a $1000 shock and strut rebuild and of course the $500 CV Boot. And thank God we caught that you were just a wreck waiting to happen.
Is my place cheap? No not at all. But figure in loaner cars, and huge diagnostic center and well trained techs, clean waiting room and all. I would not expect it to be.
Quote from: MikeC on January 03, 2012, 11:56:54 PM
If a replaced part fails two weeks after install. who should pay for:
New part?
Labor to replace?
Well, the part will be covered under warranty. Zero cost to shop.
Shop pays for labor. I assume that is why they charge $100 per hour and pay their techs much, much less than that.
I don't mind paying $100/ hr for labor if I get professional service and am charged the exact time it takes to R&R the part.
This is what I do mind :
Fee stacking : Let's say a shop thinks it is 2 hours to do rear brakes, but you are also getting axles seals replaced, and axle seals are a 5 hour job. There are overlapping necessary activities for both jobs... don't charge me as though these are two seperate jobs and bill me for 7 hours.
Actual hours vs. book : This really torques me ;D. I know some pro mechanics, and many of the high end shops pay their techs on commission. If a job is a three hour job, and the tech does it in two hours, the shop and the tech make more money.... at the customer's expense. I was once charged three hours of work time to remove a broken bolt from a starter mount. Problem was that the shop called me 45 minutes after my truck was dropped off to tell me it was done. I came unglued, and they were "kind" enough to reduce the charges.
Part gouging : Paying 100% markup or more on parts that the shop buys for me. They can't justify this as "what if this part fails in two weeks" because the failure rate is absolutely no where that high. That is a BS excuse meant to cover their greed. These shops get wholesale discounts under the prices I see, and they get free delivery. This is nothing more than pure profit to them.
Matrix pricing : Some shops charge you more or less depending on the job. This is not such a bad idea, but some shops play this way, way to their advantage. Here is an example : one shop I called charges $85 an hour to do ball joints. The same shop charges $134 an hour to do the timing belt. Really? $134? When most of the job consists of draining the coolant, unbolting fan and shroud, removing radiator and skid plate and the timing belt cover? These are operations that could be performed by a high school tech.
Misc. Shop supplies : Last quote I got (on top of part gouging an job stacking) had the gall to charge me $30 for misc. shop supplies. Bite me.
No... most shops are ripoff places, and I suspect that they get by because a majority of their customers just don't know the facts.
Makes me want to open my own shop.
Quote from: NM_Shooter on January 04, 2012, 11:16:25 AM
Misc. Shop supplies : Last quote I got (on top of part gouging an job stacking) had the gall to charge me $30 for misc. shop supplies. Bite me.
No... most shops are ripoff places, and I suspect that they get by because a majority of their customers just don't know the facts.
Makes me want to open my own shop.
I have to laugh at that shop supplies category. I tell the shop service managers or as we called them around the railroad rip tracks and roundhouses the write up clerks. The ones that do the billing and cost centering. Hey if you are going to gouge me another $30. Hide it some where else......
I do not know if the majority do not know the facts. I do and I myself feel have made a very intelligent decision. I do not want to work on my own rigs most of the time. I will trade my time for their time most of the time. In fact I can not tell you the last time I changed my own oil on any of my rigs.
To me when I buy a service it is simply I am willing to trade my time at work for their time. Doing whatever from digging a ditch with a backhoe to mechanical work. Now that I am retiring officially Jan 11. I have not made a trip on a train since just before Christmas. I hit a gravel truck coming in to LaGrande, Oregon. I was going to make one more trip after that. Then I told my bosses in LaGrande and Nampa, Idaho. I really can not top this one. I'm done.
So now in turn I will look and see what time is worth. I have a feeling it will swing the other direction somewhat.
As far as owning a shop, it is America. But having friends that own them and have owned them. Several in Boise and Nampa including body shops and machine shops and it always seems the grass is always greener.
There is a line I never cross here. I never use a friends shop for anything. I use to, will not now, there are to many hard feelings. It is too hard to call BS and get things right. I do know most of the owners and all but it is not lets do lunch, go fishing or snowmobiling.
Yeah, I had this a few weeks ago. I went with someone that need their car checked. $500, and they could start work right away and have it back that same day. This was on a "free" brake inspection.
This was the work they were charging for but didn't say anything. I had to find it when I asked for what they doing in writing.
Replace coolant.
Replace brake light.
Replace battery cable.
Replace all four brakes and rotors.
Upgrade to the premium most expensive brakes and rotors.
A 90 day warranty on everything.
The warranty is what galls me most. First the failure rate on new parts is exceptionally low. Also, if the work is shoddy and it fails in 90 days, they should be replacing it anyway. I have a problem with everyone selling extra warrantees when this used to be just part of customer service.
Quote from: Squirl on January 09, 2012, 09:36:27 AM
snip-----------------------------------------
The warranty is what galls me most. First the failure rate on new parts is exceptionally low. Also, if the work is shoddy and it fails in 90 days, they should be replacing it anyway. I have a problem with everyone selling extra warrantees when this used to be just part of customer service.
I agree Squirl one of the biggest rip offs in the world of consuming is the add on warranty or extended warranty. Maybe with the exception of Harbor Freight on a major item. ;)
Did they sell the warranty? Could you opt out of the warranty? I think in most cases it is that hook to give peace of mind, to settle the nerves. I agree that part failure in the first 90 days is low but occurs especially in brake jobs.
I have had two new rotors on different vehicles that failed in that when you heated them up like on long steep down hill grades and have to ride the brakes. The rotor when heated warped and caused a chattering or slight wobble in the steering wheel. One was from Les Schwab.
If you are in the west especially the northwest you know Les Schwab. The other was my regular old shop I always go to. However knowing both shops and have been a good customer too both. Had this occurred with way more than that 90 days on them. They would have replaced them. The local Les Schwab store said they had a bunch of them go bad. I would think in the first 90 days the major failure would be bolts left out or not tightened or torqued. Wiring not secured and coupled or connected properly. These occurring should be on the shops shoulders anyway.
Quote from: rick91351 on January 09, 2012, 11:25:33 AM
I agree Squirl one of the biggest rip offs in the world of consuming is the add on warranty or extended warranty. Maybe with the exception of Harbor Freight on a major item. ;)
Did they sell the warranty? Could you opt out of the warranty? I think in most cases it is that hook to give peace of mind, to settle the nerves. I agree that part failure in the first 90 days is low but occurs especially in brake jobs.
I have had two new rotors on different vehicles that failed in that when you heated them up like on long steep down hill grades and have to ride the brakes. The rotor when heated warped and caused a chattering or slight wobble in the steering wheel. One was from Les Schwab.
If you are in the west especially the northwest you know Les Schwab. The other was my regular old shop I always go to. However knowing both shops and have been a good customer too both. Had this occurred with way more than that 90 days on them. They would have replaced them. The local Les Schwab store said they had a bunch of them go bad. I would think in the first 90 days the major failure would be bolts left out or not tightened or torqued. Wiring not secured and coupled or connected properly. These occurring should be on the shops shoulders anyway.
Yes and No Rick. It depends on the Warranty.
Harbor Freight.....I buy one on all the gas powered things I buy there and it gets used...often.
Northern...same thing. I get a new weed eater several times a year, free.
The biggest plus is an ATV I bought from Tractor Supply. I had lots of trouble because the manager didn't file the paper work but after I got it straight, I had problems with the ATV after the factory warranty expired. Nearly two years after I bought the thing and after repeated trips to have it repaired, they bought it from me for exactly what I paid for it, including Tax....and, told me to just keep it. I gave it to one of the members here who fixed it and is still riding it.
I can't even count the thousands of dollars of camera repairs I've saved because of after market warranties.
Do research on he company and choose wisely.
Quote from: rick91351 on January 09, 2012, 11:25:33 AM
Did they sell the warranty? Could you opt out of the warranty? I think in most cases it is that hook to give peace of mind, to settle the nerves. I agree that part failure in the first 90 days is low but occurs especially in brake jobs.
Yes. The fact they add it in without asking is infuriating. You can opt out. After my little talk, I asked how much was left on the brake pads. They knew I would check after all of that. They answered 40%.
It was easy to opt out then. Took the keys and left.
That is why people I know ask me to come with them when they go. I have done almost all my own work on all my cars, boats, motorcycles, and snowmobiles. I catch them all the time trying to pull stuff. They usually do it to me once a year when I come in for inspection.
For some one that is a camera guy and uses one all the time. I can see taking an extended warranty. However most people are not like that. It sits in the closet or top shelf most its life. Most electronics will either start up the first time and run for ever or they will not ie DOA is what they were termed as. So the extended warranty makes little sense. Cars and pick ups used to be a good thing I think! Now ??? I see them talking $500 deductible at one dealership here and certainly is not bumper to bumper. As with all things in the insurance industry it is a numbers and statistics game.
Quote from: rick91351 on January 09, 2012, 02:01:36 PM
For some one that is a camera guy and uses one all the time. I can see taking an extended warranty. However most people are not like that. It sits in the closet or top shelf most its life. Most electronics will either start up the first time and run for ever or they will not ie DOA is what they were termed as. So the extended warranty makes little sense. Cars and pick ups used to be a good thing I think! Now ??? I see them talking $500 deductible at one dealership here and certainly is not bumper to bumper. As with all things in the insurance industry it is a numbers and statistics game.
That is a good observation. For MTBF and reliability calculations, there is a fairly high infant mortality rate with electronics. Burning in your stuff is a good idea to catch the parts that are going to crap out soon. I never purchase warranties on electronics, as if it does not die in the first year, it is likely going to work well for 7 to 10 years.
Car parts are a bit different I think. Especially things with brushes or bearings.
"Doing the timing belt and water pump next weekend...."
How'd that go, Shooter?
Pushed off the work to this weekend. This past weekend was my oldest daughter's last weekend home before heading back to school and I didn't want to be tied up with the work. I'm dropping her at the airport this Saturday and coming home to get started. Got all the parts and tools assembled and ready to go, and the garage cleaned. (fixed the garage door too ;D )
I found a good online reference, and should be good to go.
"Pushed off the work to this weekend. This past weekend was my oldest daughter's last weekend home before heading back to school and I didn't want to be tied up with the work."First things first, good move
Quote from: rick91351 on January 09, 2012, 11:25:33 AM
I agree Squirl one of the biggest rip offs in the world of consuming is the add on warranty or extended warranty. Maybe with the exception of Harbor Freight on a major item. ;)
Bought our first PC in '95.
$19.95 for a $350 major brand system....and three yr ISP commitment.
The sales kid asked if we wanted the extended warranty.
'How much?'
Shyly '$129'
'Ha
ha ha ha ha ha.....no thanks'
Sold it in '08 for $40
Yeah, HFT extended warranties are great, others, it depends.
High usage, on the job, you bet
Occasional, depends
New auto, not bloody likely
Bought my '99 Wrangler for $11,999 cash
But only after hot room grilling, and my threats to walk (but I wanted it....bad....now...and the banter was rather fun).
Their last shot was the 100K mi warranty (I noticed a gaggle of sales ogres with their ears to the wall). I wondered if I should have, but felt if anything went wrong, the normal warranty would cover.
Left nothing for them to talk about at their watering hole that evening.
210K mi to date
Bought a large LCD 1080p TV in '08 for $1000, waived the $110 'service' warranty.
Month later flicked it on and this black square appeared a few seconds after fire up.
(https://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l588/Garyo424/JohnW.jpg)
Called 888 India. Peggy said I need to bend over.
Threw it in the Buick and bombed the 30 mi to the store.
'Did you get the service package?'
'No, look lady, It's not even been 30 days.'
'Yes, but you still need to send it to the factory service center since you didn't buy our service package (smile).'
'But your techs are right over there with their thumbs up their hind ends (spitting, hissing).'
'I know, sorry (smile).
Hope you saved the box it came in (worried, furrowed brow, concerned look of a mother for her four yr old).'
'(sputter, forehead smoking) Yeah, I #$%&^#hope I ^%$#@*! did too.'
'Bye bye now (smile)'
(Techs all waive bye bye)
Nice people flee to the side as I exit, using the 4 wheel cart as a battering ram (.....I feel kinda bad about that, especially the lady with the walker).
Getting home, I call Peggy again. Only this time it's Colorado, and the guy asks about the closed caption buttons (??) I poke one of the half dozen caption options...more like spear it. Lo and behold I get full picture.
Seems one of us accidently hit that button.......'Huh, never saw that in the 300 page manual of 179,237 options.....'
The wife and I caress, settling in to Jeopardy.
Now we hold the remote high, with both hands, as if offering a holy gift to the magi, when changing channels.
Quote.
......Bought my '99 Wrangler......
210K mi to date.......
Would you believe my '99 Cherokee has 113,389 ??
And I can't remember the time I bought an extended service package...... ???
And only twice that I can recall wishing that I had. (after a tool broke)
Do you have over sized tires?
The OD records quite differently if you do.
I lose 1/8 mile every mile traveled
Yes on the tires (32x11.5), but I also have changed diff gears (4.56) and a new speedometer gear (40 tooth) so it is as close to correct as it was when stock. Maybe better? :)
Morris (below) has a handy chart to find what gear is needed for different Jeep tire and gear combinations. But some of their gears (like mine) cost way more than the gears from Raptor.
Morris 4x4 (http://www.jeep4x4center.com/jeep-speedometer-gears/index.htm?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=jeep+speedometer+gear&utm_campaign=B:+Product+Specific&gclid=CMCfouTYxK0CFQduhwodPkfgAQ)
and Raptor Transmission (http://www.transmissioncenter.net/speedometer_calibration_______va.htm)
Quote from: MountainDon on January 10, 2012, 12:19:36 AM
Yes on the tires (32x11.5), but I also have changed diff gears (4.56) and a new speedometer gear (40 tooth) so it is as close to correct as it was when stock. Maybe better? :)
Yeah, I felt kinda silly when tapping out that scrap of knowledge........to Mountain of info Don............
Quote from: Gary O on January 10, 2012, 08:25:46 AM
Yeah, I felt kinda silly when tapping out that scrap of knowledge........to Mountain of info Don............
It is kind of like telling Google what I just bought on Amazon ;D
;D
Not everyone is aware of stuff like that so it never hurts to mention it. :D
I had a state trouper try ti intimidate me once though... he assumed that just because the Jeep had big tires I was stupid and wouldn't know that my speedometer would be off. I told him the speed I was going and that I had changed the gear and it agreed with the speed on my GPS. I'm not sure he knew what I meant by the gear chane but I left it at that. Then he said the GPS was inaccurate because I was moving. I left that alone as well; no sense starting an argument. He also questioned the lack of front plate; NM doesn't have one. This was in SD. He sent me on my way without so much as a "good day" after he ran my plate and license.
Don't ask me about making cheese, or birthing a calf though. ???
So, Don, I have a question.
When I had the larger tires installed, the Les Schwab tech advised that my gas mileage would suffer greatly.
Knowing some simple math, I challenged his theory in regard to keeping score.
The greater circumference would cover more distance per revolution...duh.
However, since you upgraded gears to match, did you notice any difference in gas mileage?
I show 18-20 mpg, did show 22-24 with the tiny stock tires....which in my mind somewhat matches the 1/8 mile recorded loss per mile.
Quote from: MountainDon on January 10, 2012, 12:38:48 PM
Not everyone is aware of stuff like that so it never hurts to mention it. :D
I had a state trouper try ti intimidate me once though... he assumed that just because the Jeep had big tires I was stupid and wouldn't know that my speedometer would be off. I told him the speed I was going and that I had changed the gear and it agreed with the speed on my GPS. I'm not sure he knew what I meant by the gear chane but I left it at that. Then he said the GPS was inaccurate because I was moving. I left that alone as well; no sense starting an argument. He also questioned the lack of front plate; NM doesn't have one. This was in SD. He sent me on my way without so much as a "good day" after he ran my plate and license.
Don't ask me about making cheese, or birthing a calf though. ???
GPS is not good if you are moving........ ??? Was not aware of that. I think I would have told him. Oh Ya! Mine even tells me how fast I am going when I am stopped.... ;D
In birthing a calf and you decide you are going to have to go in. :-\ Step one and this is not for the squeamish now. [shocked] Remove your coat and roll up your long sleeves..... rofl This usually is correlated to Murphy's Law. It is -40 and the wind is howling or you have an important meeting.... The wife slid off the road..... Gets deeper, maybe best I PM you my phone number and if it comes up you can just call.
Quote from: Gary O on January 10, 2012, 01:10:05 PMhttp://www.greatsource.com/iwrite/students/s_grammar_hndbk.html
So, Don, I have a question.
When I had the larger tires installed, the Les Schwab tech advised that my gas mileage would suffer greatly.
Knowing some simple math, I challenged his theory in regard to keeping score.
The greater circumference would cover more distance per revolution...duh.
However, since you upgraded gears to match, did you notice any difference in gas mileage?
I show 18-20 mpg, did show 22-24 with the tiny stock tires....which in my mind somewhat matches the 1/8 mile recorded loss per mile.
Most likely Gary, he was referring to the larger footprint on the road. Plus some of the larger off road tires the rubber compound and tread design gives better adhesion but they displace more aggregate. Fancy word for road materials. The more you displace the most horsepower required, the more horsepower required the more fuel, the more fuel the happier Chevron is. The more you displace the more it wears the tires, the more it wears on the tires the happier Les Schwab and the people in Primeville are.
That's what the tech said, but
260 mi divide 14 gal = 18.57 mpg
I lose 1/8 mile on the OD per mile traveled, so
260 x 1.125 = 292 mi
292 mi divide 14 gal = 20.86 mpg
OK, not the 22-24 on the tiny tires, but to me, 'suffer greatly' w/be more like;
OMG!! 10 mpg less!!
However, I bow to advanced technology and the discovery of the loss of 2-3 mpg, since in the professional world it's a big difference.
For me it's the loss of a happy meal per week.
I am impressed, though.
OK, my brain is full and my stomach is empty....tomorrow I skip the happy meal........or maybe Thursday...next week for sure............
I did my Jeep build up in a couple of stages over a period of several weeks. I had all the parts at once but not the time. I did the lift and then did the change to larger tires a few days later as step one. I expected a performance loss in acceleration and also expected a loss in fuel mileage, but it dropped more than I expected.
You would think that having the engine run at slower revs for the same speed would definitely increase the fuel mileage. I think that may be true for small changes. However my factory tires did 735 revs per mile. The 32's do only 656 revs per mile; about 10% less.
The engine runs so much slower that at the same throttle opening it can not produce the same amount of horsepower when pushing the vehicle at the same speeds. HP goes up as engine speed increases. The throttle has to be opened more, more air and more gas go through and make more power; enough to maintain the previous speeds. Therefore less fuel mileage.
The first thing I noticed (with bigger tires and stock gearing) was reduced off the line acceleration, but with the automatic transmission it was easy to ignore. It was not nearly as bad as the difference I noted when going up to 33's on a manual transmission CJ years before. That was a real dog with stock gears and trans. But that's another story.
The second thing I noticed was the transmission would drop out of overdrive with the slightest increase in grade on the highway.
Third, the fuel mileage sucked. I don't recall the numbers but it was significant.
A month or so later a friend and I jacked the Jeep up and changed the gears and the diffs (ARB's F&R).
The fuel mileage never came back to what it was stock but it was close. Items that contributed to that are (I figure):
1. The lifted vehicle has more air resistance. It sits higher and has considerably more turbulence underneath.
2. The tires are not only taller, but wider. That does present more rolling resistance, as Rick indicated. The larger size tire cannot be inflated to maximum as then the crown of the tread will wear much faster than the edges. So running the tire at 25 lbs where it presents a flat tread to the road there is more sidewall flex and more rolling resistance.
3. I went with 4.56 gears when 4.11 would have been closer to the stock equivalent in terms of tire revs per mile. But I wanted a little more "grunt" for pulling trailer loads. Also we live in the mountains and most driving is done at 5000 to 9,000 foot elevations where there is a noticeable power drop. More revs = better power.
4. The Jeep weighed more with the steel tube bumpers, tire carrier, more skidplates and rock rails.
Note: Mud Terrain tires give worse fuel mileage than All Terrain tires even in the same size. They wear faster too. I had Goodyear M/T-R's and gained fuel mileage I could notice when I wore them out and went with the current BFG A/T's.
There are a number of gear/tire change cals and charts on the web. Here's a simple one that will calc what the new gear ratio should be to be equivalent to the stock tire and axle ratio. http://www.therangerstation.com/tech_library/Gear_Tire_RatioChange.html
You can also do some simple math that comes out with virtually the same results.
Multiply the NEW TIRE diameter X the OLD GEAR ratio. Then divide that by the OLD TIRE diameter. The result is the NEW GEAR ratio. Round up/down as needed/desired. If you are real lucky the speedometer comes out close enough and you don't need a speedo gear change.
Engine mods to produce more torque at lower engine speeds could compensate for the typical mileage loss with a tire increase. But that's totally different and more expensive territory. My CJ engine was rebuilt for more low end torque and it actually got very good mileage. But that was a several thousand dollar engine back in the 80's.
I can't believe I read all this...and digested it..............
Low revs but works harder....makes sense.
It's good to behold the scrolls of the book of Don ever so often.
Well, I can add this to the list of things I hope to never have to do again.
Took me 8 hours (book says 5). Not counting the 4' long wrench I had to make in order to break loose and then retorque the crankshaft bolt (pic below). I have a stout 1/2 fixed socket drive, and watching the 5/8" shaft on that thing bow under the torque of two cheater pipes was a bit scary.
Would have done it in 90 minutes less, but was struggling to get the timing belt back on and created a worry that turned out I didn't need to worry about. Sometimes the internet is a very helpful thing. Anyway, my list of repairs on this truck is done. Happiness is a truck that starts up after a timing belt change, and no leaks after a water pump swap.
Funny how the things that make me happy are getting more mundane.
(https://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q46/nm_longshot/misc/IMG_0308.jpg)
"Funny how the things that make me happy are getting more mundane."
Welcome to the far side of sixty.
The color tones are quite soothing here in Geriatricopolous.