OK guys and gals here's a question for you:
I've been reloading now for about 5 years (so I'm still a newbie at it) and am learning more every time I load a new set of cartridges and I hope to learn more today ;)
(https://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af102/emcvay/IMG_1514.jpg)
This is a picture of a 150 gr Sierra JFN bullet I just reloaded for my 30-30. I'm using 32 grains of H4895 (about middle of the road) and have trimmed the case lengths according to my Lyman reloaders manual (newest edition) to 2.028" and pressed to 2.054" with a crimp.
As you can see the crimp doesn't fully engage the cannelure which I believe is desirable when reloading with cannelured bullets. So here is the question: Do I leave it at 2.054" as the manual calls for or do I press the bullets in a little deeper until the crimp is about 1/3rd of the way into the cannelure?
Now before we get into a discussion about chamber pressures and headspacing I'll add that I've done a fair amount of reading on the subject and while it does make a difference in chamber pressures when the bullet is further away from the lands or right into them the difference appears to be more significant (and important to pay attention to) in much higher powered rifles and it appears that most 30-30 reloaders don't feel that it's even that important to trim the cases as long as they aren't stretched past 2.039".
But what I'm looking for is real world shooters/reloaders who might have some guidance for me here.
I don't plan to hunt with this rifle (it's over 40 years old and a treasure) but I do like to shoot it from time to time and have a hankering to reload a little for that purpose.
Much thanks
Erik
Glad to see you still load for the 30-30. It's a fine old round in many ways.
The distance from the lands does impact chamber pressure but the 30-30 is a low pressure round to start with and your load is moderate, so that's not an issue.
The bullet jump in your case needs to be based on two things.
The first and of lesser importance, is accuracy. The jump is highly individual from rifle to rifle. I like to start at about 20/1000 and move forward until I hit the sweet spot.
The second factor and most important, is that you're using a tubular magazine that pushes on the bullet. If you don't have a good crimp and I always use the crimping groove both on cast and jacketed bullets with the 30-30, the bullet can easily be pushed deeper into the case.
That does alter accuracy and chamber pressure when it is extreme.
Since you mentioned headspace, that again doesn't matter here. Rimmed cases headspace on the rim so it doesn't matter what the shoulder or case mouth are doing. I have one 30-30 I've rechambered to an improved cartridge and shoot both fire formed improved cases and off the shelf factory stuff out of it.
Quote from: peternap on December 28, 2011, 01:55:14 AM
Since you mentioned headspace, that again doesn't matter here. Rimmed cases headspace on the rim so it doesn't matter what the shoulder or case mouth are doing. I have one 30-30 I've rechambered to an improved cartridge and shoot both fire formed improved cases and off the shelf factory stuff out of it.
Interesting by improved are you referring to a PO Ackley Improved are a more local wildcat?
Quote from: rick91351 on December 28, 2011, 07:25:33 AM
Interesting by improved are you referring to a PO Ackley Improved are a more local wildcat?
It's my design Rick but very close to the Ackley.
Thanks for the excellent response...so I take from it that I ought to seat these a little deeper so I can crimp into the groove?
I tested one last night and found something interesting: chambering the round pressed the bullet back into the case and now measures 2.050" and the crimp which must not be tight enough is fully engaged in the groove now.
Thoughts?
Re: the 30-30.
The 30-30 is my all time favorite caliber to shoot hands down. I don't shoot it often anymore but I've had this rifle since I was 2 or 3 and grew up with it. At one time I could hit a bullrush at 100 yards offhand with it! Today I have a harder time seeing through the rear v-knotch site but that's ok as I'm sure I can still ring the gong at 250 yards with this trusty rifle. It's not only beautiful but it's straight shooting.
Sure the 30-30 isn't the longest shooting round, nor the most powerful but who can argue that the iconic 30-30 isn't one of the best all round rifle cartridges ever developed?
(https://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af102/emcvay/30-30.jpg)
There is just something about shooting this old long barrel that makes me smile ;)
Ever wanted to shoot a 30-30 300 yards? 400? Yes it's possible with this long barreled version though I don't know I'd try to shoot deer out there since the cartridge doesn't carry enough punch past 200 yards (or so I'm told)...perhaps the new fusion rounds in this rifle would at 300 yards but I suspect that's pushing it and I digress....
Here she is :) Beautiful huh?
(https://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af102/emcvay/CowboyGuns003.jpg)
That's my other favorite :) Ruger Vaquero in .45 colt -- can't beat it!
Quote from: OlJarhead on December 28, 2011, 09:30:52 AM
I tested one last night and found something interesting: chambering the round pressed the bullet back into the case and now measures 2.050" and the crimp which must not be tight enough is fully engaged in the groove now.
Thoughts?
That's what I was warning about. I've actually had the bullet disappear into the case. :-\
The 30-30 has a long and delicate case neck and has to be belled to keep from crumpling it while seating the bullet.
It's simply not strong enough to give a taper crimp that will hold up against the stress of a tubular magazine and the sharp feed ramp in a lever action.
It needs a strong roll crimp in the cannelure to give consistent results.
Quote from: peternap on December 28, 2011, 09:41:30 AM
That's what I was warning about. I've actually had the bullet disappear into the case. :-\
The 30-30 has a long and delicate case neck and has to be belled to keep from crumpling it while seating the bullet.
It's simply not strong enough to give a taper crimp that will hold up against the stress of a tubular magazine and the sharp feed ramp in a lever action.
It needs a strong roll crimp in the cannelure to give consistent results.
I was thinking that I needed to seat the die down further and crimp tighter into the groove and I doubt the .004" shorter round will make much of a difference...heck I think I can get it a little longer and maybe only lose .002" in the process...
I also noticed that the cases were pretty delicate and that even with a good chamfer I was occasionally getting an ever so slight bulge at the lip which I figured was the bullet messing with the case. I'll have to find what I need to bell the cases (I'd read that they were like that by others but not having something to bell them with I went ahead and worked up some loads -- seems I was able to get most without damaging the case and the few that were still chambered.
Quote from: OlJarhead on December 28, 2011, 09:40:33 AM
Ever wanted to shoot a 30-30 300 yards? 400? Yes it's possible with this long barreled version though I don't know I'd try to shoot deer out there since the cartridge doesn't carry enough punch past 200 yards (or so I'm told)...perhaps the new fusion rounds in this rifle would at 300 yards but I suspect that's pushing it and I digress....
100 yards for Deer size game.It's a wonderful old round and was the first conversion from BP to smokless. It's taken every animal in North America but peole shouldn't try to push it and make it what it isn't.
Quote from: OlJarhead on December 28, 2011, 09:45:24 AM
I was thinking that I needed to seat the die down further and crimp tighter into the groove and I doubt the .004" shorter round will make much of a difference...heck I think I can get it a little longer and maybe only lose .002" in the process...
I also noticed that the cases were pretty delicate and that even with a good chamfer I was occasionally getting an ever so slight bulge at the lip which I figured was the bullet messing with the case. I'll have to find what I need to bell the cases (I'd read that they were like that by others but not having something to bell them with I went ahead and worked up some loads -- seems I was able to get most without damaging the case and the few that were still chambered.
Depending on what die set you're using, you should be able to adjust the bell on the decapping die.
Quote from: peternap on December 28, 2011, 09:45:32 AM
100 yards for Deer size game.
It's a wonderful old round and was the first conversion from BP to smokless. It's taken every animal in North America but peole shouldn't try to push it and make it what it isn't.
http://www.whitetaildeer-management-and-hunting.com/ballistics-table.html
WOW! Look at that table, it will illustrate your point very well.
I love this round, I really do, but I've never hunted with it. It's always been my plinking rifle and it's a sweet one for it and I know it's taken every big game animal in North America so I've been confident that it will do the job if needed....but my 7MM is the one I hunt deer with ;)
Quote from: peternap on December 28, 2011, 09:47:24 AM
Depending on what die set you're using, you should be able to adjust the bell on the decapping die.
I'll check it out -- they are older RCBS dies.
My favorite cartridge for 100 yard Deer is an old one too. The 45/70 out of my Marlin Guide Gun.
When I need more range, it's my 270.
I've always shy ed away from the 7mm Mag because it's over bore capacity andreally needs a longer barrel than I like.
the 280 (7mm Express) is just about perfect though.
For a stopping gun, it's either my .730DDR or I'm playing with Tri Balls now in he DDR cases. ;D
(https://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa57/peternap/ashell.jpg?t=1325081210)
(https://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa57/peternap/a-ready.jpg?t=1325081204)
(https://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa57/peternap/aball.jpg?t=1325081339)
The 45-70 is another I'd like to have but I have a .454 Casull Model 92 that I call my 'brush gun' :)
Of course I could also choose to use my .308 but then I'd have to get a magazine of only 5 rounds to use it and what's the fun in that! ;)
Quote from: OlJarhead on December 28, 2011, 12:51:51 AM
This is a picture of a 150 gr Sierra JFN bullet I just reloaded for my 30-30. I'm using 32 grains of H4895 (about middle of the road) and have trimmed the case lengths according to my Lyman reloaders manual (newest edition) to 2.028" and pressed to 2.054" with a crimp.
As you can see the crimp doesn't fully engage the cannelure which I believe is desirable when reloading with cannelured bullets. So here is the question: Do I leave it at 2.054" as the manual calls for or do I press the bullets in a little deeper until the crimp is about 1/3rd of the way into the cannelure?
Any information used in the following post is sole responsibility of end user of the post. The author refuses to acknowledge that anything below is even remotely correct ;D.
I think that you are either measuring or reporting your dimensions incorrectly. What do you mean by saying that you "pressing" it to 2.054"? that would only be 0.015" (15 thousands) longer than the case. Are you missing a "tens" number? Maybe do you mean 2.540"? What are you measuring? Base of case to tip of projectile? Remeasure the total cartridge length please. Trimming of the case is not that critical for safety reasons in the 30-30, as the headspacing is set off of the face of the rim (measured to datum on shoulder), and not off of the end of the cartridge mouth (like in 45 ACP). But in almost all rifle rounds the end of the case does not cause interference fit in all but the most neglected cases. I find that I rarely have to trim .223 rounds. I prep the brass when I get it..... resize to SAAMI, deburr and uniform the primer hole and pocket, trim to length, and debur neck inside and out. For palma or other ammo that I am being anal about, I will turn the neck thickness to uniformity as well. Most stuff I don't.
You do need to be a little careful in setting up your dies, as you don't want to push the shoulder of the case back too far. This will screw up accuracy, and worse, put slop in the chamber which can and does cause premature case failure. I have case gauges for my flat walled rifle ammo. I don't know if they make them for rimmed cases.
2.039" is the
maximum allowable length of the 30-30 case.
From "Modern Reloading" by Richard Lee, 1997, Page 173 : "Case length is maximum allowed for a standard chamber. Most rifle case may be trimmed .010 to .020 inch shorter." They indicate that the case length on page 306 has a maximum length of 2.039".
In terms of pressure, case length has little to do with safe pressure in your chamber... assuming that your headspace is set correctly, and mouth of cartridge is not contacting the lands (would be difficult to do). The primary factor here is neck tension and length of neck to bullet contact, which is not a big component. A little bit of pressure tends to swell that case out in a hurry. As Peter mentioned, you just don't want the bullet touching the lands prior to firing, as that can spike the pressure. As a side note, some guns are designed to shoot better that way. The 30-30 is not one of them.
Assuming you are not touching the lands of your rifling with your projectile, the biggest geometry factor in pressure is the
minimum OAL seating depth, as the bullet using up space in the volume of the case dramatically changes the pressure profile as the powder burns. This is a really important number to pay attention to... the overall length of the cartridge, with the
minimum OAL number being the key.
Lee's book indicates that the
Maximum overall length should be 2.550". The truly critical length which is given in any reloading recipe is the
Minimum overal length. You do not want to seat your bullet deeper than this, as you risk over pressure. For 150 grn bullet, depending on type, I see the minimum OAL as being in a range of 2.480" to 2.550" depending on projectile type. Use the bullet manufacturer's min OAL spec.
Do this... seat a bullet to the center of the cannelure, and measure. If the overall length falls inbetween the reloading guide minimum, and the SAAMI maximum, then you are good to go. If it is too short, then you have trimmed your cases too short.
On my rifles where i can get to the breech of the barrel, I use a Stony Point gauge set to measure the chamber dimensions to the lands for each different projectile that I use in that gun. I then use on ogive gauge when I am reloading to set my rounds back from the rifling to a dimension that I want. I am never, ever even a bit close to violating the minimum overall length. Note that this is a custom reload for this particular gun, and not one that I would swap to a different chamber.
What I would do is to fiddle with the case trimming to put the cannelure right at the crimp point, and put the OAL of the cartridge about halfway between the minimum and maximum lengths. Record the magic case length. Measure between loadings (before and after sizing) to make sure that the case is not stretching too much. If it is stretching, make sure you are not pushing your shoulder back too much during resizing.
This was probably more info than you needed. Be safe.
Thanks thanks and thanks!
Yes 2.540" was what the Lyman book I'm using called for as well as the Hodgens reloading recipe for Sierra 150gr FN bullets.
I fought and fought and squished some cases trying to get a crimp that would prevent the bullet from being pushed deeper into the case on chambering...
Then I got out my caliper (actually it's always out so that's a figure of speach) and measured the round each time I pulled it out of the chamber and it kept on measuring 2.498" to 2.500" for 6 different test rounds no matter what I did with the press.
Then I realized I had some Fusion 150gr FN bullets in the reserve box so I pulled out a brand new box and put the caliper on one...guess what? 2.500" on the nose.
So much for 2.540".
What I find interesting is that the same thing happened to me with my M1A when I started trying to reload for it. I kept having issues getting test bullets to chamber and I was pressing to the books OAL. IN frustration I pulled out some new federals I had with the same bullet and found the same darn thing: much shorter then the book called out.
I guess the book is a guide and lists Maximum OAL and I take it as gospel that I have to press to that.
I've repressed all my rounds to 2.500" and have had no issue with them changing in length when chambering.
So, now I need to look again at the Lymans book and see if I missed something...I'll post back shortly.
Lyman Reloading Handbook, 49th edition page 214:
Dammit!
I could kick myself seriously....when you read this you will understand if you reload:
150gr Jacketed RN
Yes folks, I had a brain fart and it damn near cost me. RN......RN.....RN.....ROUND FLIPPING NOSE!
This manual does not list 150 gr Jacketed FP or FN
It lists a 170 FN at OAL of 2.540" so clearly that is the problem...now I need to go back to Hodgen's site and see if I missed it there too.... d*
Quote150 GR. SIE FN IMR IMR 4895 .308" 2.550" 31.5 2071 32,200 CUP 33.5 2213 34,300 CUP
Looking at Hodgen's reloading data I see C.O.L. which I take to mean "Case Overall Length" which doesn't make sense but it shows at 2.550"
I'll keep digging
My Sierra reloaders manual doesn't list the OAL so it was no help.
Hodgens was no help.
Lymans was no help.
My little 30-30 handbook which I forgot I had has the Sierra 150 gr FN as COAL of 2.520"
So it would seem that my Fusion Bullets were the best indicator of what I ought to be setting my OAL at???? I took a manufactured bullet and measured it and came out with 2.500" which is what the chamber seats the bullets at if I put in a long test bullet.
So um...I'm only a little confident that I've got it right and still don't like the crimp but I cant get the crimp tighter without damaging the cases.....new die time?
Last post, I promise....in this exersize I saw something else: Each manual seemed to have a different opinion on how much H4895 to use ranging from 27.5 gr to 34 gr.
Is this typical?
Man I've loaded thousands (and shot) .45ACP and .45 COLT rounds and while I had a learning curve I've had more trouble learning the 30-30 then I imagined! Heck my .308's have worked very nicely and I'm shooting them out of an M1A for crying out loud!!! LOL for those not familiar with the M1A/M14 it has a reputation for destroying brass -- specially brass not properly inspected or re-loaded!
I don't see that bullet as a model that Sierra currently offers. How old is that box?
Give the folks at Sierra a call and see if their tech folks will talk to you about minimum OAL.
Powder charges also vary depending on primer type and case. Primers can vary quite a bit between vendors. Case wall thickness (mil ammo is crazy thick) can cause pressure differences too. For that matter, be careful when deburring primer holes. You want to clean them up, not make them bigger.
Richard Lee says that starting load for 150grn bullet w/4895 is 29.8grns, with never-exceed at 34grns. I would never load to the never-exceed without working my way up and watching for hard extract and flat primers on the way there. If this is a plinking gun, stay on the low side. Brass will last longer and pressure won't be an issue.
Some cases are also made of different alloys. For example, Federal cases are a very soft brass, and I can't use them in my match AR15 which has a very tight chamber. They just won't extract reliably (Frank White / Compass Lake Engineering suggests not using them in their match uppers). I had a friend give me a case of Federal .223, and I ended up giving it away.
Sounds like you are getting closer....
Quote from: NM_Shooter on December 29, 2011, 12:34:51 AM
I don't see that bullet as a model that Sierra currently offers. How old is that box?
Give the folks at Sierra a call and see if their tech folks will talk to you about minimum OAL.
Powder charges also vary depending on primer type and case. Primers can vary quite a bit between vendors. Case wall thickness (mil ammo is crazy thick) can cause pressure differences too. For that matter, be careful when deburring primer holes. You want to clean them up, not make them bigger.
Richard Lee says that starting load for 150grn bullet w/4895 is 29.8grns, with never-exceed at 34grns. I would never load to the never-exceed without working my way up and watching for hard extract and flat primers on the way there. If this is a plinking gun, stay on the low side. Brass will last longer and pressure won't be an issue.
Some cases are also made of different alloys. For example, Federal cases are a very soft brass, and I can't use them in my match AR15 which has a very tight chamber. They just won't extract reliably (Frank White / Compass Lake Engineering suggests not using them in their match uppers). I had a friend give me a case of Federal .223, and I ended up giving it away.
Sounds like you are getting closer....
OLD! I was given two boxes of sierra 150gr fn bullets that were 'new' (never opened) and sold at Payless for $7.95 a box!!! hahahaha
So ya, OLD.
It's a plinker and for that matter not as much as I'd even like honestly but it's so darn pretty I have a hard time shooting it much anymore when I can just pull out the M1A which I LOVE to shoot (need a match rear sight for it but the price is giving me heartburn), or my Puma 92 in .454, or any number of other options I have ;)
But I love the challenge to reload for the 30-30.
I loaded up a box at 32gr's of H4895. Maybe a little hotter then I should have but I went with the 'middle' of the road on the first few I looked at.
You're spending too much time worrying about overall length.
Make a dummy case, no primer and an uncrimped bullet. Pull the bullet as far out as it will go then chamber it. That's your maximum length to the lands.
Don't start your loads middle of he road. Until you get a good handle on the burning characteristics of a particular powder, use the minimum load load and work up from there watching pressure signs.
I have a box of those FP Sierra 150's in .307 diameter. I got them in the late 60's. Some of the old 30-30's had tight bores. (You should slug yours to make sure)
Looking back at my notes from then, 3031 was my best powder for them.
Quote from: peternap on December 29, 2011, 05:45:07 AM
You're spending too much time worrying about overall length.
Make a dummy case, no primer and an uncrimped bullet. Pull the bullet as far out as it will go then chamber it. That's your maximum length to the lands.
Don't start your loads middle of he road. Until you get a good handle on the burning characteristics of a particular powder, use the minimum load load and work up from there watching pressure signs.
I have a box of those FP Sierra 150's in .307 diameter. I got them in the late 60's. Some of the old 30-30's had tight bores. (You should slug yours to make sure)
Looking back at my notes from then, 3031 was my best powder for them.
Thanks Peter.
Slug a bore? What is that?
This old Winchester has had every imaginable cartridge shot through over the years but it still acts like a fairly new rifle (that always amazes me)....my dad shot 500 rounds through it on the bench in '67 after he bought it to break it in and hunted with it a bit back then. Then it sat waiting for me and by 1980 I was buying a box of shells here and there and plugging them through it...by '86 I left it to join the Marine Corps but got it back around '88 and once again began shooting it....kept shooting it too right up to a few years ago.
Now it sits in the safe in a sock waiting for me to pick it up again (which is what I'm doing now).
Sometimes I wonder why I just love to shoot this rifle but then I realize that anyone would. After all, it's both aesthetically beautiful as well as being smooth in the action with that long long barrel making it easy for anyone to shoot accurately. It's like the perfection :)
Slugging the bore is driving a soft lead oversize slug through to measure. It's a must if you plan to start shooting cast, but a good idea even for JB's.
And yes, I understand your fascination with it. I like all guns,love most but am absolutely devoted to falling blocks and lever actions. Muzzle Loaders fall into another but related affair. ;D
Quote from: peternap on December 29, 2011, 09:48:11 AM
Slugging the bore is driving a soft lead oversize slug through to measure. It's a must if you plan to start shooting cast, but a good idea even for JB's.
And yes, I understand your fascination with it. I like all guns,love most but am absolutely devoted to falling blocks and lever actions. Muzzle Loaders fall into another but related affair. ;D
Oh we're of a feather then for certain :)
How I'd love a Kentucky!
oljarhead: I believe that the M14 was supposed to be a very accurate rifle. I was wondering
if you knew whether the Corps ever used it as a sniper rifle, and if so do you know what the did to it, scopes etc.?
Thanks,
Bruce
Quote from: firefox on December 30, 2011, 01:14:46 AM
oljarhead: I believe that the M14 was supposed to be a very accurate rifle. I was wondering
if you knew whether the Corps ever used it as a sniper rifle, and if so do you know what the did to it, scopes etc.?
Thanks,
Bruce
Oh yes the Marine Corps and the M14 go hand in hand...fit like a glove! Did you know the USMC still uses them? In Iraq they put at least one of the 'battle rifles' back into a platoon (maybe even squad level) because the M16 simply lacks the power to shoot through walls or kill at 800-1000 yards but not the M14!
As for Snipers, the M14 was used as the A Gunners rifle. You see sniper teams have two weapon systems, the primary weapon (sniper rifle -- the only semi auto used for this that I know of was the M1 Garand) and the secondary weapon (A Gunners rifle). The A Gunners rifle has to be capable to shooting out to the same range as the primary weapon with reasonably good accuracy and a properly fitted M14 can do it but not quite like the bolt action weapons.
I know Springfield makes a 'White Feather' version of the M1A but I think that's just something they've done in honor of Hathcock. After all, he and his A Gunner used an M14 in conjunction with their Model 70 30-06 'Target Rifle' primary weapon but the M14 was never the primary.
As for mine, it's not overly accurate as it sits. I find that I've been able to hold reasonable shot groups at 100 yards when zeroing -- reasonable meaning that I don't shoot it nearly enough, am getting old and blind so have a hard time getting a good sight alignment much less sight picture, and with all that still can hold 1 1/2" groups at 100 yards with decent factory or home reloaded ammo.
I have the scout squad version which also makes a difference as the barrel is shorter and less likely to produce the results of a $3000 match or White Feather version which I have no doubt will drive tacks at 100 yards and is more then capable of hitting the X repeatedly at 1000 yards with a good operator.
Anyway, I'm no sniper (just to be sure no one gets the wrong impression) but I love to shoot and, well, Chesty Puller was a fighting Marine but Gunny Hathcock sits right there beside him ;)
Thanks oljarhead. I qualified expert on the M14 in the Corps at PI, but I am not a sniper or even close to that. I also used M1 garands in ITR at Lejeune. I was out before the M16 was issued. I also received excelent training on the 3.5 rocket launcher when I joined the 22nd Marines.
Bruce
The original was called a bazooka and was 2.9" The 3.5" is just an upgrade.
It just sounds sexy when you say rocket launcher. The thrill wears off fast when you start
out as a ammo humper. It adds up to a lot of weight which my old mind has completely blanked out. gee, I wonder why?
I was lucky, there was this comitted corporal who could knock out a tank at 500 yards
who took me under his wing and tried to bring me up to speed. He was one of these guys
that didn't wnt any rank and just loved his job. If he was promoted, he would just go into
town, get tanked, and then go cuss out the platoon leader, which got him busted back down again.
Bruce
I don't know Bruce, bazooka sounds a lot more masculine. Rocket launcher sounds like use once and it is all done. Bazooka on the other hand!!! Okay I know. n*[toilet] :-X
After humping a full load of rounds on a 50 mile forced march I
don't think you are too worried about people thinking you aren't masculine. ;D
Bruce
I'm keeping my mouth shut before Ellen takes my computer away from me again!
It's ok Rick, I understand, you just need to be a little more assertive. ::)
Bruce
PS the rounds are a little less than 9 pounds each.
Really what I need to do is say thanks for serving. You and all you veterans that are on this list. THANKS!!!
Thank you, I really appreciate that!
Oh, and by assertive I mean you have to say:
Yes Ma'am,
No Ma'am,
Right away Ma'am,
In an assertive voice ;D
Happy New Year
Bruce & Robbie
Quote from: firefox on December 30, 2011, 01:14:46 AM
oljarhead: I believe that the M14 was supposed to be a very accurate rifle. I was wondering
if you knew whether the Corps ever used it as a sniper rifle, and if so do you know what the did to it, scopes etc.?
Thanks,
Bruce
My Gramps was a gun nut and he passed a little on to me so I will try to shed some lite on this for you Firefox but I'm no expert.
I believe the M1 Garands was frist adopted as a sniper rifle they used a match grade weapon and called it the M1C and later the M1D it had a flash hider like that on the M2 and a M84 telescopic sight and a leather cheek pad on the butt to make your eye line up with the scope that was mounted of to the left side of the rifle.
The M14 was about the same.
It was called the XM21 and it also had the option of useing the Starlight night vison scope and nosie suppressors.
Later on with the XM21 they started useing the 3x9 redfield scope with the Accu-range reticle.
The XM21 was a Army sniper rifle but surely the USMC used some.
Mostly the USMC used my favorite the M40.
It is a Remington 700 bolt action with a medium weight barrel and wooden stock and it also used the Accu- range scopes.
Later on they changed things up a bit by putting on a fiberglass stock and adding a Unerti scope to the M40A1.
I think this weapons system is still in use by the USMC but has had a lot of changes done to it I think it is the M40A5.
The USMC also used the Wincherter M70 but I don't know much about it.
Hope this helps,W
Thanks Whitlock! That was a lot more than I ever expected and I really appreciate it.
My Father was also a Marine, but he never talked about it. Actually he never really talked about anything with me, but that wasn't all his fault. I was always running around like crazy
discovering things...and then trying to figure out how to avoid being found out ..........
Bruce aka firefox
Firefox: Semper Fi!
Others: M14 as a Sniper Rifle for Marines? Nope. Army yes, Marines no. Not that I can find anywhere, but remember that Hathcock and Land pretty much wrote the book for Marine Snipers AFTER the M1D was mothballed and during widespread use of the M14 by the corps but they chose the bolt action rifles which the USMC stuck with.
I was able to find no reference at all to M14's used by Marine Snipers during it's period of active use - on the other hand the M2 .50cal WAS actually used by Hathcock so who knows....and yes I said the Ma Duece! Great story that one.
SUCCESS!!!!
YES!
After all that I was able to put the 9 rounds that I test fired at 45 yards into the 9 and 10 ring with 3 keyholed in one spot and 2 in another from the off-hand. I'll post more later but suffice to say I was extremely happy!
OlJarhead: Semper Fi!
Thanks for clearing that up for me. I figured the M14 might be a good canditate, but
it makes more sense to have a bolt action for supurior results.
Bruce aka firefox
Nine rounds, 45 yards, off hand, no sling, standing in 4" of snow and shooting over some brush to a target stapled to some old plywood on a nice bank near the cabin ;)
(https://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af102/emcvay/30-30_12-31-2011.jpg)
Why 9 rounds? The answer may not be as you suspect.
With all the trouble I had loading these rounds for my 30-30 I didn't want to load up a bunch and start shooting so I loaded ONE round into the tube magazine, worked the lever and chambered the round, sighted in and shot.
I felt the old familiar recoil and press against my cheekbone. Nice. I walked to the target some 45 yards away and found a nice 30 cal hole in the 10! Sweet.
I then loaded 3 rounds into the tube magazine and shot them out one by one. Nice recoil, consistent feel, no feeding issues. I walked to the target and found 3 holes to the right of the 10 in the 9 and 8 ring...ok, I was rushing a little and knew it.
I finally loaded 5 rounds and shot them one by one catching each empty cartridge after firing so I wouldn't have to dig them out of the snow....it felt so right to be shooting my old trusty rifle :D
Walking down I saw 2 new holes....hmmm....oh wait, a key-hole, make that 3 no 4 no 5! Yes!
For not shooting this old girl in a long time, shooting offhand in the snow with no sling, no rest and just about every other 'no' you can think of when it comes to trying to test out ammo much less be accurate I had to smile. This rifle just doesn't miss (had nothing to do with the old jarhead shooting her either)....even home loaded repressed and questionable loads just seemed to fly down range as if they knew where to go!
I can't wait to shoot more with the time to print them properly to see what they will hold but I have no doubt I could shoot the center out of many targets with this old rifle!
Funny thing I ought to add: I can't see the sight alignment worth a damn either! I need some shooting glasses I guess because I could not get a clear front sight post :(
Damn age!
OlJarhead: In case you are interested one of the old timers on steelsoldiers has a
OTIS Cleaning kit NOS for $100 in the classifieds. I am not connected to this person in any way. Just thought it was a good deal.
Bruce aka firefox
if you get a rear peep sight for that rifle, you can fit a diopter which will give you some cheat and bring that front post into sharp focus....
Do a google for Bob Jones sights. Or possibly BJ sights. i can't remember.....
Here you go... be sure to check his home page too.
http://www.bjonessights.com/tang.html
Quote from: firefox on January 02, 2012, 12:49:55 AM
OlJarhead: In case you are interested one of the old timers on steelsoldiers has a
OTIS Cleaning kit NOS for $100 in the classifieds. I am not connected to this person in any way. Just thought it was a good deal.
Bruce aka firefox
Nice kits -- but I have an original M14 Cleaning hit ;) and I mean original NOS military M14 kit in the but stock! Also have many others. Also ordered some Gunzilla which should be arriving soon :)
Quote from: NM_Shooter on January 02, 2012, 02:22:37 AM
if you get a rear peep sight for that rifle, you can fit a diopter which will give you some cheat and bring that front post into sharp focus....
Do a google for Bob Jones sights. Or possibly BJ sights. i can't remember.....
I actually thought of getting one for my M14 but have to first get a match rear (which is $$$ I'm not ready to spend)....funny thing that, the M14 sights I can use pretty well still (not as well as I should mind you) but the open v-knotch sights really give me trouble.
Anyway, modding the rifle is pretty much out of the question unless a peep sight would fit without additional screws etc....you know what I mean? I just can't bear the thought of tapping into it!
Cleaned my reloading bench tonight as part of my push to clean my garage. It desperately needed it, and I now have much more work space. Makes me want to build up a bunch of something...... Hmmmmmm.......
Quote from: OlJarhead on January 02, 2012, 10:41:28 AM
Anyway, modding the rifle is pretty much out of the question unless a peep sight would fit without additional screws etc....you know what I mean? I just can't bear the thought of tapping into it!
I so agree with you. You just can not touch that M14 - I have sporterized several mausers. The last one was several years ago for my daughter. A 6.5X55 Swede. Now I am hoping that my grandson who just turned nine will take me hunting with that gun someday. He will be hunting age here in Idaho in three short years. That gun and action just seemed to be built to do stuff with. Then there are some guns you just should never ever touch. They are sort of holy ground, they are history and lineage. And they are not all necessarily military weapons or firearms however.
I bought a 6.5 X 55 Swede at a gun show for $165 (IIRC)
After looking through the Brownells catalog I decided to customize it into a more modern custom rifle
I figured I could 'sporterize' it and get a good hunting rifle for a bargain price
The trigger and lock time was -- umm how to describe it ---- slooow and creepy
I cut off a lot of extra metal from the back part of the firing pin assembly with a dremel tool to reduce the firing pin mass and put in a much stiffer spring to speed it up
On the far left of this pic I cut the back about 3/8 inch of the bolt assembly off -- the part that sticks up
(http://www.alpharubicon.com/leo/images/22_assembledbolt.JPG)
I fitted a low profile safety so I could put a scope on it --similar to this one
(http://www272.pair.com/stevewag/turk/turklosafe.jpg)
then I put in a Timney trigger to get a crisper break
I hand filed the trigger guard back to a much trimmer more modern look and reshaped floor plate to a nice flat beveled look
Then there was that hard to find expensive ammo --
So I had it rebarreled into 7X57 by an old gun smith whose eyes lit up when I told him the calibre (he said it was his favorite )
He also drilled and tapped it for some Kimber scope mounts
The bluing when it came back was perfect, he took a lot of extra time to polish the complete rifle -- he said it was probably the last barrel job he would do -- he was very proud of how it turned out
I then put on a Mannlicher style walnut stock
It made a nice, fairly light rifle
By the time it was done I had a rifle that is comparable to a Remmington for accuracy and weight and I only had about 100 hours of work and lets see about costs (1990 prices)
Rebarrel an bluing $260
Trigger, safety and spring $160
Scope and mounts $320
Stock blank $220
original rifle $165
What a bargain for roughly $1100 bucks a pretty good rifle d*
so much for bargain sporterized military rifles I guess
It's the Winchester that I won't mod ;) But the M14/M1A is also in the category I agree! It's a sweet rifle to shoot as is!
NM -- load! I actually really enjoy successfully loading up a bunch of rounds to a point I'm happy...as I'm sure the rest do too....there is something about it...of course it's also a challenge for me because I'm new to it but then I love the challenge and all of you have been a big help on the 30-30 stuff!
I have a couple in the safe that are 'untouchable'. My uncle bought a Remington Gamemaster 760 30-06 pump. My wife now owns it and uses it. First year of production, it never was tapped for a scope nor fitted for a recoil pad. I have offered to buy her another 30-06. She says like that one. But then she learned to shoot as a 'kid' with black powder guns that were as tall as she was.
The other one is a M1 Garand. But then I can not imagine what one could do with "the greatest battle implement ever devised" (General George S. Patton)
Quote from: OlJarhead on January 03, 2012, 09:39:49 AM
It's the Winchester that I won't mod ;)
Lyman may have a rear aperture sight that is a bolt on / screw on, without drilling more holes. I think it was a 66... I used one on the Puma 454... had to drill and tap, but IIRC it was the one meant for an early 94
You'd have to really think about what you want to do with that rifle.
If you want to shoot it well, you could get some shooting glasses that help with aging eyes, or install a sight with a diopter. But doing that would degraded the aesthetics of the gun I think.
If it is just a fun gun to shoot, and you don't depend on it to bring home dinner, then I'd probably just leave it as it is. Why mess with a good thing? :D
Quote from: OlJarhead on January 03, 2012, 09:39:49 AM
It's the Winchester that I won't mod ;) But the M14/M1A is also in the category I agree! It's a sweet rifle to shoot as is!
NM -- load! I actually really enjoy successfully loading up a bunch of rounds to a point I'm happy...as I'm sure the rest do too....there is something about it...of course it's also a challenge for me because I'm new to it but then I love the challenge and all of you have been a big help on the 30-30 stuff!
Sometimes a dab of white paint on the blade will help.
So do you own a M14 or is it a M1A?
I have a friend that owns a M1A match grade and he has mounted a scope on it and boy does that puppy shoot.
The older our eyes get the longer they take to focus and the harder it is to focus on maltipal items.
Do you shoot with both eyes open?
If not and you start this will help. With both eyes open it takes strain off of your retina allowing clearer vison. It takes some getting use to but it is a big help for you eyes.
I trained my eyes by sticking tape over my glasses on the non shooting eye side and after about 2 or 3 hours my dominant eye took over and I no longer need the tape.
Hope this helps,W
Quote from: NM_Shooter on January 03, 2012, 01:14:01 PM
You'd have to really think about what you want to do with that rifle.
If you want to shoot it well, you could get some shooting glasses that help with aging eyes, or install a sight with a diopter. But doing that would degraded the aesthetics of the gun I think.
If it is just a fun gun to shoot, and you don't depend on it to bring home dinner, then I'd probably just leave it as it is. Why mess with a good thing? :D
Shooting only. I have a model 92 in .454 for the brush and a 7mm for longer shots ;) among other options....
Quote from: Whitlock on January 03, 2012, 10:34:29 PM
Sometimes a dab of white paint on the blade will help.
So do you own a M14 or is it a M1A?
I have a friend that owns a M1A match grade and he has mounted a scope on it and boy does that puppy shoot.
The older our eyes get the longer they take to focus and the harder it is to focus on maltipal items.
Do you shoot with both eyes open?
If not and you start this will help. With both eyes open it takes strain off of your retina allowing clearer vison. It takes some getting use to but it is a big help for you eyes.
I trained my eyes by sticking tape over my glasses on the non shooting eye side and after about 2 or 3 hours my dominant eye took over and I no longer need the tape.
Hope this helps,W
Interesting on shooting with both eyes open. I've read about doing it but never tried (clearly not an operator lol ).....
The M1A is for all practical intents and purposes an M14 with the only possible difference that I can find is that the sear mechanism is fixed and cannot be modified to fire anything other then semi-auto (so I've read anyway). However the full auto option M14's were useless and the military abandoned that idea because no one outside the Hulk could actually make any use of one (ever tried firing 7.62x51 on full auto? Even my M60 A3 was a bear!). However I digress!
I have the M1A Scout Squad made by Springfield Arms and took to calling it an M14 whenever I got strange looks from those who have no idea what one of those is but have heard of the M14 -- though I fair amount don't even know what that is anymore it seems.
Love the rifle!
Quote from: OlJarhead on December 28, 2011, 09:40:33 AM
Ever wanted to shoot a 30-30 300 yards? 400? Yes it's possible with this long barreled version though I don't know I'd try to shoot deer out there since the cartridge doesn't carry enough punch past 200 yards (or so I'm told)...perhaps the new fusion rounds in this rifle would at 300 yards but I suspect that's pushing it and I digress....
I filmed a a good friend of mine and neighbor of yours OJ shooting long range with his 30-30 and then killing a whole pile of milk jugs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1E4abzmvio0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1E4abzmvio0)
Heres another clip of him doing it at 500 yards.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiQGPmo3hmM&feature=plcp&context=C3f339e7UDOEgsToPDskLwjoHu9Hm1T1PMPzTqLMmH (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiQGPmo3hmM&feature=plcp&context=C3f339e7UDOEgsToPDskLwjoHu9Hm1T1PMPzTqLMmH)
I'm not a big believer in "energy" as a measure of hunting lethality based on my own experience. My preference is for big deep penetrating bullets that make two holes. The 45-70 at black powder velocity will travel lengthwise through a 300 pound Black Bear and Lord knows how many more as I've never recovered a bullet - and as far as I know that bullet is still going... Zips right through Elk too. Critters go down quick and so far (knock on wood) no tracking has been required. Can't say that about fast skinny bullets including the 7mm - sure it has impressive numbers on paper but I've found penetration and on game performance unreliable. A deer can go a long ways and not leave much blood to follow even when his boiler room is a gooey mess. :-[
Your mileage may vary.
Hmmmmm.... Keith vs. Ackley?
I like a fast bullet that holds together... for Elk I have switched to a Barnes-X style projectile. I've never given an animal a gooey boiler room and have them stay on their feet for more than 10 seconds, or awake for more than 20 seconds. If you consider boiler room to be heart and lungs. I would agree with the lack of blood without an exit wound.
I guess it depends what I am shooting and how close it is.
For the most part I lean towards Ackley and prefer a faster bullet. Too important to exactly know the range for slow bullets. Misjudging by 25 yards at 300 with a 45-70 is going to put the round off target. I've yet to see a person who can accurately judge distance by eye at 300 yards every time (throw in declination for fun too). Even very experienced shooters struggle with estimation. Using a scope helps, but I don't want to think about it too much when I'm hunting and need to take a shot right now. If you are hunting from a stand and exactly know your distances to fixed objects, then you have a better chance.
If I am in the path of a Cape Buffalo during rush hour, then I might prefer the biggest diameter bullet I can find, but also going as fast as possible. Bigger is good for that, but I think fast and big is better.
I'm an "aim for the exit hole" kinda guy. I want at least both lungs to be inline with that too, I guess that is why I end up passing on so many shots - I figure I'll take one shot in about a half dozen legal critters I see if it's a open area and maybe one in a dozen if its thick which is most of the time. I don't long range hunt mainly because I like hunting with an iron sighted levergun or a bow and I have self imposed limitations.
I started out a bolt guy and leaned toward the Weatherby philosophy - faster is better, "energy" dump ... the stuff I read in magazines my whole life. After the better part of two decades of that with mixed results a feller showed up at camp with a 44 levergun as his primary - typically those kind of guns were considered "camp guns" or backups. It didn't take long before he made me question my whole skinny fast bullet bias. I was very impressed by the performance, its handiness, its lack of thunderous report... It planted the seed and after sharing a hunt with a gentleman using a 45-70 Sharps (blackpowder loads) on his last Elk hunt and being thoroughly impressed by the performance I was perty much converted. My past experience with Elk generally involved a difficult track and recovery (seemingly always at the bottom of the hill in the thickest, steepest, nastiest terrain possible), the 45-70 dropped her in her shadow. I also learned what "eating up to the hole" was all about and the field work was less messy.
Now almost a decade later, I'm more cranky about who I hunt with (I'm convinced its easier to find a good wife than a good hunting partner) and how I hunt which means hunting alone most of the time. I'm perfectly fine with others who choose another path so long as they are well practiced and make ethical choices in their shots.
I agree with NM_Shooter.
In the area that I hunt it is going to be a fast bullet that holds together.
I love my 7mm's and 6.5's
Your friend with the 30-30 is quite a shot, off hand, open sites, 500 yards !!!
I wonder how many milk jugs would of been shot though at 500 yards?
With the 45-70 do you have a lot of wasted and blood shot meat?
It just seems like over kill to me but I have never shot anything but tagets with one.
Later,W
very little meat damage with the 45-70 at the velocities I shoot it (<1500 fps). For Deer I typically use 45 Colt 1894. A 300 grain bullet jogging along at 1250 fps puts em down quick. Works great on Black Bear too. Another pard of mine took an Elk with his. I wasn't there but he reported it as a DRT.
We typically catch 30-06 bullets in the 7th jug.
Here's some video of us shooting the 45-70 at long range. Even at less than 1200 fps at the muzzle it still has some smack left down range (about 1:40 into the video)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Oas1ApY6qo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Oas1ApY6qo)
Here he is at 1,000 yards. The target is 20" wide and 32" tall which was replaced by the dinger in the previous video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HO6ihrcukcc&feature=plcp&context=C368967eUDOEgsToPDskIC4iyAy2ononet3LUiGad_ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HO6ihrcukcc&feature=plcp&context=C368967eUDOEgsToPDskIC4iyAy2ononet3LUiGad_)
While mostly a waste of ammo its fun to shoot long range with our revolvers too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4eg8mnhjkM&feature=plcp&context=C31ab669UDOEgsToPDskIG8v0z_ecWhN7C4WbI-s-o (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4eg8mnhjkM&feature=plcp&context=C31ab669UDOEgsToPDskIG8v0z_ecWhN7C4WbI-s-o)
I SO want to join you guys out there!!!
I think a lot of the big bullet, small bullet has to do with the area.
I love my fast steppers, actually, I love guns...period, but for Deer and Bear Hunting, I only use two. One is my Guide Gun in 45/70. A 300 yard shot in my neck of the woods is unheard of. 15 to 50 is more like it.
The exceptions are fields and power line easements. I use my 270 there where ranges can go to 300 yards.
Even the shotgun hunters aren't too handicapped here.
Whoohoo! :) :D
I went out with a friend to test some new loads I made up. Oregon Trail Lasercast 250gr RNFP's for my .45colt using CCI300's and 7.7grains of Unique. I wanted to compare them to a Trailboss load I'd done and was very happy!
While the Trailboss loads were slower (designed to run around 750fps but clocked in at 700fps) I felt I could still compare the two in terms of consistency. The Trailboss loads were a little spread out with most sitting around the 700fps range but some running hot and as high as 800fps or more. Strange I thought.
The Unique loads mentioned above ran 845fps on average with a Standard Deviation of 25 (if my memory serves me right) which I think is ok for the .45colt case and a 250gr bullet.
I then went on to a new load I playing with for brush hunting as a sidearm defensive load (for charging game) and something I can use in my Puma92 for brush hunting. I need a load that doesn't hurt to shoot but produces good penetration and force. The 360 grain Lasercast WNFP gas checked bullet is my newest candidate :D
I went low with the powder at 18.4grains of Win296 which should produce something above 900fps and 650 ft-lbs plus out of my 5" Vaquero but while they shot great and felt fantastic we couldn't' get the darn chrono to catch them! I moved forward and backward for the few rounds I had trying to find the sweet spot for the chrono but we couldn't get it to read them :(
But later inspecting the brass it was perfect! No cracks or damage at all (and these are once previously loaded cases as is) and the feel, sound and impact suggest a good starting load :)
The recipe I have shows up to 20 grains of 296 with CCI350's which would push these out around 1300fps and produce something like 1300 lbs-ft of force :o and I'm hoping to get a good chrono result soon so I can start working them up a little bit.
I think pushing much over 1000fps isn't really needed for my area and that puts the force at about 800+ lbs-ft at the muzzle which out to stop most big game in WA state -- if it don't then my bowie better be handy! lol
I also shot some jacketed soft nose 300 grain Hornady's that I expect to run around 900fps but sadly the Chrono didn't seem to like them either.
Only thing I can guess is the muzzle blast was making it too hard to catch the bullet???? Might have to measure velocity at 20 feet or something like that in order to get away from the muzzle blast of these hot loads.
Incedentally, we didn't have an issue with a .223 running loads from 2400fps to 2600+fps from about 10 feet out and my 250 grain bullets at 8-10 feet seem to register fine though we did have to walk back a bit and then work forward to a point it read well. Seems the Chrono is finicky with the bigger bullets for some reason.
Did some reading and it sounds like the blast wave from the hotter loads could have been the issue with trying to read them. Also bright sun without any shades built in.
Seems a common problem with .45 caliber bullets too -- which I find interesting. Has something to do with the big slow moving bullet getting a 'glint' off bright ground or some such goofiness...who knows but I know that a hot loaded .45 colt is hard to chrono without doing SOMETHING to help the chronograph register the round.
Worked up my new load that I'll be trying soon at 19.0 grains of win296, CCI350's and the 360 gr WNFP's made by Lasercast of Oregon (I went to the factory to pick them up -- ya drooled all over).
Figured these ought to run about 975 out the muzzle and produce 760 ft-lbs of force. Then I'll do a batch at 19.5grains and 20 grains (for the rifle) which ought to go 1234 and produce 1216 ft-lbs
If these loads work out nicely (I think they will) I'll do up a set for the rifle (Puma Model 92 .454 Casull) at 1200fps and a set for the pistol at 1000ish...that way I'll have plenty of oomph out of the side arm if needed and can use them in either the rifle or the pistol but will have the hotter loads intended really for the rifle.
Have to admit that I always get excited when loading up new bullets -- even with old recipes. Just something about making your own :) ;D 8) [cool]
45 Colt is just a great caliber. 139 years of history and good results.
Are those heavy bullets printing high?
My New Vaquero and Blackhawk both shoot 300+ grain bullets high - about 4" High at 25 yards. 250-280ish work perfect with the sights on both guns. Lighter bullets print low. Out of the rifle, its all pretty close.
Quote from: Yonderosa on August 26, 2012, 10:48:38 PM
45 Colt is just a great caliber. 139 years of history and good results.
++1
Quote from: Yonderosa on August 26, 2012, 10:48:38 PM
45 Colt is just a great caliber. 139 years of history and good results.
Are those heavy bullets printing high?
My New Vaquero and Blackhawk both shoot 300+ grain bullets high - about 4" High at 25 yards. 250-280ish work perfect with the sights on both guns. Lighter bullets print low. Out of the rifle, its all pretty close.
Haven't had a chance yet to print them -- might today or tomorrow. Was just trying to get the chrono to give velocity. Going to try two things this week:
1. Put up a cellophane screen in front of the chrono to shoot through to help control the blast wave.
2. Shoot from 12-15 feet for the same reason.
Seems shooting 8-10 feet out with no screen just messes with the chrono and I've read it's the blast wave from the round and short barrel that's causing the issue.
Loaded up some Win296 19 grain rounds and will be working up some 18.5/18/7/19/19.2/19.5/19.7 and 20 grain rounds to test out this week.
You mentioned 'new vaquero'.....I thought those were too light to shoot anything but cowboy loads? ???
I have the old vaquero (2000) which was also made in .44mag (with fluted cylinder) and can shoot pretty much anything I'm willing to throw at it but I'd read somewhere the new cowboy action vaquero's weren't designed for the heavy loads.
The New Vaquero is rated in the same class as the S&W Mountain gun. Stronger than a Colt or Clone but not up to "Ruger Only" loadings. Brian Pearce has written a couple of excellent articles on the New Vaquero. Here's one that came up with some of my lazy google-fu.
http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/HL_234_preview.pdf (http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/HL_234_preview.pdf)
My go-to load is a 280 grain Keith style SWC (RCBS 45 270) over enough Unique to get it going 900 fps. Accurate, economical to shoot, easy on brass, plenty of smack down range.
Good article but I must admit, I'm glad I have the old model! I tend to want hotter loads I guess, or at least the ability to test them though I prefer to shoot a little lighter then hottest.
For example, I enjoyed shooting my 360 grain WNFP's from Oregon Trail with 18.4 grains of Win296 and CCI350's. Those were designed to come out around 1129fps and produce 1019 ft-lbs of force from a 7 1/2" barrel but I'm shooting a 5 1/2 so expect a little less, maybe 900-950 or 1000 if I'm lucky (have to get the chrono working right to know).
I'll test them up to the max though (20 grains of win296 to produce 1234fps in the 7 1/2" vaquero at a rather impressive 1218 ft-lbs of force) but admittedly I don't enjoy shooting loads that hot as much (so I learned when shooting the old Corbon 'Colt Magnum' rounds they no longer call 'Magnum' but rather +p -- they just hurt! lol)...but I want to test these at that range to see how they perform in both the handgun and the rifle.
Maybe I'm a nut though! LOL d* I am a jarhead after all. d* ??? :o
Truth is I was reading an article a few years back about shooting wild bore with 300 grain Cast Performance bullets going some crazy velocities out of a rifle and dropping big bores on the charge like a ton of bricks and I've wanted to try to produce some loads like that to see what they're like to shoot.
QuoteI was sitting on my duff wondering why all of a sudden the ants were finding certain parts of my anatomy so fascinating...when I heard him coming and grunting and complaining, like his boss gave him a hard time at work. Ants forgotten, I lifted the Win/94 in 45 long Colt....300 grain WFN (wide flat nose) loaded to about 1500+ fps giving around a 1500 ft.lbs.or less of muzzle punch. He broke cover at 65 long paces...I was even with his chest, so I put it there...it traversed his entire body and exited after going thru his left hip joint (back leg joint socket).
Chances are I'll settle on something around 1000fps with the 360's and continue to shoot my 250gr RNFP's around 850fps and be happy but I'll always have some of those big monsters in my belt for those days I'm trudging along in the heavy brush in the mounts or in the valley up the way where it can get tight and the only place for that bear to go is right through you or back the way he came....know what I mean?
Anyway, I'm looking for a powerful load that I can shoot with the rifle but that won't break my Vaquero (or my hand) and I'm thinking Oregon Trails big huge bullets traveling over 1000fps from the pistol ought to produce some serious grunt from the Model92 ;)
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/45coltlevergun.htm
Sorry! Forgot that article.
Check out Garrett Cartridges commentaries.
http://garrettcartridges.com/commentaries.html (http://garrettcartridges.com/commentaries.html)
Good article on handguns and bears...confirms some of my own thoughts (big and slow).
I grew up in Coastal BC and North Central (when I was younger) and there was a time I could smell a bear before he ever got close enough to charge me unless I was upwind of him.
Funny story, best told when time permits, but when I returned from Desert Storm I'd been out of bear country for over 5 years. I went out fishing (in Canada so no sidearm or longarm though later I began carrying a shotgun) and had just gotten settled at a new fishing hole I wanted to try not far from Port Alice BC.
Shortly after my first cast I smelled garbage (or so I thought) and the flies were loud as can be. I was pissed that anyone would have thrown their trash in this pristine location but the trash smelled somewhat strange.
I sat contemplating the smell and the sound of the flies and then it hit me like a ton of bricks! I was sitting CLOSE ENOUGH to a bear that I could both smell him AND hear the flies buzzing around him.
I first thought of trying to real in my line, even started doing it but realized I needed to be careful, he obviously was curious but not charging me....I rustled my tackle box and banged it on a rock once before realizing how stupid that was (I'd been there before and it only aroused interest -- yes, interest)....so then I did what I'd learned so many years before: I introduced myself to 'George'.
"OK George, here is how it's going to be, I'm going to get up real easy like and I'm going to walk right back down the trail to my car and put my stuff away and your going to let me do just that. ok?".
While talking I reeled in my line, picked up my gear and slowly turned around and got ready to walk back. Bushes moved nearby as 'George' gave me room. I walked back to my car (maybe 50 yards) and as I reached the parking area (this wasn't a public lake the way you probably think of one...this was a lake that wasn't within 5 miles of a building or a person near a town that was 45 miles from the next town or building for that matter) which was really just a gravel pullout on a logging road. As I made the clearing old George, as I called him or her, moved off into the brush on the other side.
I got in my car and drove away, I'd decided I'd had enough excitement that day.
The next time I went fishing there I had my shotgun (side by side 12guage) leaning against a rock and a game warden came walking up. I'd heard the car pull over by mine a few minutes earlier but was surprised by the warden because I'd never seen one before. He asked me "What are you hunting?" when he walked up. I looked at him somewhat puzzled (remember this is Canada after all and I'd just come back from the US after getting out of the Marine Corps after Desert Storm) and said "I'm fishing". To which he replied while pointing at my shotgun "with that?".
I laughed and said "No that's bear repellant but I'd rather have one of those for that" and pointed at his sidearm.
We had a nice chat that day and he agreed it would be much better to carry a sidearm then to rely on a shotgun leaning against a rock that I might walk a yard or three away from while reeling in a big one.
In all my years of wandering around the woods alone (I've done that a lot) I've never been charged by a bear, wolf or cougar but I've been tracked by all of them (except maybe a cougar since you never really know with them) but any time ones been too curious (or more then one) I've either talked my way out of it (you'd be surprised how well that works) or convinced them I was far more dangerous then they were by shooting something nearby.
BUT, and this is a big BUT, I've read too many stories about lone people being attacked in the woods by sick, frightened or startled animals and you just never know. If that ever happens to me I pray I'll have my .45 colt on my hip with big flat bullets loaded up in it and my bowie on my other hip and preferably a shotgun or rifle in hand!
Like in the Marine Corps, the pistol is a last ditch protection measure to be used only when all else has failed and then it better be up to the task and from what I've seen and read the .45colt is if loaded well (and I think Yonderosa can attest to that since he's hunting with .45colt by the sounds of it).
I would never, however, rely on 9mm, 380, 38 special and would prefer not to have to rely on .357magnum though it's a good handgun it's still just a .38 moving fast. I'd rather have my .452 chugging along at a respectable pace with the power to stop whatever it is that I'm faced with.
By the way, I wouldn't rely on the .45 colt in Grizzly country though -- not serious Grizzly country. No sir, then I think I'd migrate over to the .454 Casull instead. Just need that much more force.
There was a guy who shot a charging brown bear with all 6 rounds from his .454 and the bear dropped at his feet still alive but unable to do anything. The guys wife shot the bear shortly afterwards. He later said he thought his pistol malfunctioned because it quit firing. He hadn't realized he'd fired all six! That happens in combat too.
How does Springfield Arms put it? "Bring enough gun". :) In Blackbear county I think I can do that ;)
Hmmm had a post get lost.
In short (cause I don't want to type it all again) the 19.5 grain Win296/CCI350 load for the 360gr WNFP's ran the most consistant at an average deviation of only 10FPS and an ave velocity of 137fps.
I went from 18.5 to 20.0 but the 19.5's were the best/
Energy should be right around 860 ft-lbs of force at 15 feet.