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The city of Chicago is considering legislation to make the possesion of a joint or two an equivelent to a traffic violation. Such laws are in place elswhere..........



Your Thoughts...?





sparks

Marijuana, legal in small quantities, for personal use, yes.  It be taxed and sold  like beer, wine and spirits. Illegal to sell like bootleg liquor is illegal. Permit growing small amounts for personal use, like brewing beer and making wine for personal consumption. Probably have a minimum legal age to posses; again much like beer and wine.

Other drugs still illegal.

Vote for Gary Johnson

as long as personal responsibility remains intact, I have no objections to what people with to do to themselves in the provacy of their homes..  be it beer, wine, bourbon, pot, AD meds, anti-depression meds, nyquil or other. It's when they make poor choices and impact others with a defense of "I was incapacitated" do I take issue.  .. remove the BS shield and force people to be responsible for their actions and it will naturally work itself out.  We don't need a nanny-state babysitter to keep us safe, we just need common simple rule of law. 

Amen to that Muldoon - my thoughts exactly. It's when folks cry "victim" that I part ways with them. You know, the folks who are now classified as "disabled" due to alcoholism, drug addiction, being overweight, etc...  Personal responsibility needs to be accounted for if we are to decriminalize marijuana.  Massachusetts recently decriminalized marijuana and possession is still against the law, but it is now punishable by way of a $100.00 ticket and possession is defined as up to an ounce.

So I have to deviate from the popular opinion here... I think it should not be made legal in any amount.  The "medical" waivers are a joke and hugely abused. 

My objection is made primarily with children in mind.

1)  Pot, unlike alcohol, has the ability to have negative second hand effects on those who don't or shouldn't partake.  A good example of this would be small children.  I shudder when I see kids trapped in a car with smoking parents.  We don't need children absorbing any THC at all. 

2)  The effects of pot are significantly stronger in smaller doses than alcohol.   A kid can conceal / ditch / distribute / consume too much too easy.

3)  I don't believe that we need another way to decrease sobriety and negatively effect productivity of our once great nation.   

4)  People drink alcohol, take recreational drugs, or participate in other behavior frequently to reduce their radius of awareness.  They also do these things to decrease their level of inhibition.  When someone's inhibition levels are decreased, they frequently do things that endanger themselves and others.  We don't need another legal way for folks to screw up themselves or others.

5)  Take compromised perception, tied with reduced inhibition, and add car keys.  As someone who had a loved one killed by a drunk, I am against any other way for someone to become legally intoxicated. 

I am of the general regard that I don't care what anybody does on their own time, on their own property.  However, if what they do poses a threat to anyone else, no matter where they are, then I object.  I am not naive enough to believe that if legal, people have sufficient self control and discipline such that this should be accepted.

I believe the negative implications of legalizing pot would be greater than the positive ones. 

The personal responsibility issue, while I agree, is difficult to administer when the "rubber meets the road".

Consider the motorcycle helmet law in place in many states. We can all argue that this should be a case of personal choice and responsibility - it's my head after all!

Still, when I flip my bike, crack my skull open and need immediate brain surgery followed by years of expensive retraining and therapy...is the EMT guy or ER doc going to say "sorry buddy, you should have had your helmet on"? No, because we are a civilized and caring people we will patch the guy up and the costs will be absorbed by society if there is no one else to pay.

I'm with MtnDon's thoughts on this, but am in a quandary as to how to vote.
Decriminalized......but still not 'legal' across the board, vote no?
Little help here...........

I'm not fully settled on either side of the issue.  I'm a child of the 60's, so speaking from experience, life is better for me without pot and drugs in general.  I also drink very seldom, 3 or 4 times a year, and not to get drunk.  Just doesn't interest me any more.  This is a personal choice. The legality of a drug does little to curb its availability.

I'm also enjoy understanding history....I look at the devastatingly negative social effects of the years of alcohol Prohibition in our country, the crime and violence of the big business bootleggers, and the strikingly similar current situation with illegal drugs and the black market industry it has created, and can't help but wonder what our social fabric would be like if the power of the drug cartels were evaporated by some sort of decriminalization. 

Cigarettes and alcohol can be as addictive and as bad for a person as many other drugs...the only difference is that they are legal.  Where should the line be drawn?

I'm with Frank on this.

All of my work is dangerous if I have an impaired partner. I could die if on a building and they lose their end of the steel due to substance abuse.

Formerly I had employees.  I had problems with every one of the dope smokers.

One ground the end of his fingers off after a good smoking session at lunch - there goes Workman's comp.  I canned him permanently after I sent him to the doc.

Another burned $75 worth of welding rod in an attic of Fedex to cover his smoke as it was a non-smoking establishment.

Another on dope called in sick because he couldn't think so he sat down and had another joint to sort the job out then went home.

Another former employee slammed a ladies hand in a door ripping it down to the tendons then saying it wasn't his fault because he was on drugs... may have graduated to meth on that one I think.

Another former employee cannot maintain a family life because he lives for dope and deals it on the side.  His waking moments are consumed with Mary Jane...all subjects turn to discussion of it.  All acquaintances are viewed as smoking partners or potential purchasers.

I have little problem with it if they stay away from me and leave me alone.  Let the state support them if they want...problem is we are lower tier of the state and it comes back to us.

Not all users are that bad you say?  Neither are all alcohol users but why make it easy for more abusers to be created.  Many cannot or will not stop once they start.  Many will move on to much worse drugs - meth being one that is as cheap as marijuana, and once on that they are pretty useless to the world and nearly all of them steal to support their habit, getting to us on another front.

I say how about we keep it illegal to at least give the kids more of a chance.  Don't condone their bad decision making.  I realize there is little chance of stopping it even with it being illegal.

I agree and disagree with all of the above. I was in college in the 60's but never used illegal drugs. I drank enough beer to float the Queen Mary though.

When I got married and had kids, I stopped that and never regretted it.

All the moral theorizing aside, Drugs are available and people are going to use them. You just can't legislate personal responsibility.

What the drug laws do is create an avenue for the Government to build a larger police force, keep even more records on people (I have to sign for Zertec for my Asthma) and to abuse when they are otherwise prohibited from arresting someone. There are untold cases of no knock drug raids when no drugs were found.

Illegal drugs cost more so that tends to increase crime by users and we spend a lot of money this country no longer has to spare, for drug enforcement.

Quote from: peternap on November 10, 2011, 10:16:22 AM

Illegal drugs cost more so that tends to increase crime by users and we spend a lot of money this country no longer has to spare, for drug enforcement.

One of the reasons I say that legalizing MaryJane along the lines of alcohol makes some sense.

Glenn's stories are very moving. Lots of bad choices people make. But we can't make being stupid and irresponsible illegal - there aren't enough prison cells.

Does making marijuana legal change any of that?

I say legalize, tax and then spend the tax money on providing education and support to promote responsible behavior. Some folks will be lost to drugs like some are lost to drink. In both cases making the intoxicant illegal does not change that situation. Tracking usage and perhaps having a case worker that keeps the person from harming others is the best we can do for some. Others, given the support, may get control of their habit and rejoin society at a higher level of responsibility.

Did anyone watch Ken Burns recent production Prohibition on PBS?

There was more illegal drinking going on during prohibition than there was legal drinking going on before or after.   I don't think everyone will become a pothead, but there will be some.

Walk a mile in my shoes and then vote.  Towards the end the only relief from severe nausea for my dying wife was to smoke a joint.  She had to find and buy it illegally, because her condition didn't allow docs to prescribe synthetic marijuana.  d*

Glen, I understand where your coming from.  I once had to fire a man for drinking at lunch everyday.  But I dont think alcohol should be illegal because of it.  My wifes sister was killed by a drunk driver a few years ago, I do understand the points above. 

But when you add up the cost of our existing war on drugs, (especially social costs), I dont see how continued fighting makes any sense.  Take the money out of the equation and kill the cartels.  You can buy a pound of lettuce or broccoli in this country for 2 or 3 bucks, but people pay hundreds of dollars for an ounce of weed.  It's stupid, that money is being extracted where it should be being redirected.  I am deeply opposed to the loss of freedoms we have given up for the fight against drugs.  I am also deeply frustrated by the militarization of our police departments for drug fighting. 

40 years ago, the Shafer commission recommend that marijuana be decriminalized. Nixon refused to read it, and created the DEA

Now we spend millions of dollars on law enforcement keeping the price of Marijuana artificially high so the drug cartels have millions of dollars to buy weapons they can use to murder the law enforcement officers we spend millions to train and equip. Cut off their income and you cut off their power

Edit:

Quote from: muldoon on November 10, 2011, 11:50:12 AM
But when you add up the cost of our existing war on drugs, (especially social costs), I dont see how continued fighting makes any sense.  Take the money out of the equation and kill the cartels.  You can buy a pound of lettuce or broccoli in this country for 2 or 3 bucks, but people pay hundreds of dollars for an ounce of weed.  It's stupid, that money is being extracted where it should be being redirected.  I am deeply opposed to the loss of freedoms we have given up for the fight against drugs.  I am also deeply frustrated by the militarization of our police departments for drug fighting. 

You beat me to the post button.

I agree completely, You can grow a field of "weed" as easily as you can grow a field of corn and in a legal market they'd be worth about the same

I have seen loved ones suffer the same slow painful deaths from cancer, poppy.  Where alcohol is perfectly legal and doctors are willing and able to give them all the opium they could want (oxy), but the one drug that could help with the suffering is both illegal and has such a social stigma they can't or won't take it.

Marijuana is a mild intoxicant, just like many others in our society that are perfectly legal.  The principle comparison people make is to alcohol.  And alcohol is a drug.  I don't know how many have known alcoholics.  How many have watched one go through delirium tremens when they don't get it.  The myriad that ruin families, can't keep jobs, and physically hurt people.  I remember watching a kid die form alcohol overdose in college.  Hundreds of people do.  I have lost close friends to drunk drivers.

Yet even with all of this we made the choice as a society that the personal freedom of people to enjoy it, not partake in it, or abuse it was up to themselves.  We criminalize the abusive behavior, not the drug itself.

Yes, I enjoyed the Prohibition documentary.  I found some similarities.  I had watched a discovery program on how many of the rural areas of appalacia are commonly used to grow marijuana a few years before the documentary was made.  They are areas with little to no jobs.  Many of the locals condone it because they like the boost to the economy and they don't appreciate government intervention in what they view as a personal choice.  I found many of the same justifications for moonshining during prohibition.

I agree Poppy- When I was getting chemo, the only relief from severe nausea was to smoke some pot.  The $20/pill Rx the docs gave me just didn't work..I was desperate, it went on for days and days, then back off for a day or so then back to the hospital for another round of chemo.  Made me want to quit treatment. 

I also agree with Glenn "All of my work is dangerous if I have an impaired partner."  Unfortunately, there are bozos out there who will come to work impaired no matter what the law says.

I must say, I am at a disadvantage on this subject, Considerations.  Nary a joint has touched these pristine virgin lips..... [waiting]

QuoteCut off their income and you cut off their power

I suspect with that double entendre you have identified why this is a moot discussion  :-\

A vote for no.  There is nothing OK about doing any kind of recreational drug. It clouds your thinking and cause poor judgment that lasts day or weeks.

Thinking you could stop organize crime by cutting off their fund doesn't add up. I some how don't see them rolling over and getting day jobs because the dope trade is slowing.

The cops and the courts already turn their backs on anything small as it is.

Why send a message to the youth that its OK. Alcohol and tobacco is legal but that doesn't make it ok.

pot is pot. id personally rather see it legal than alcohol. you cant od on pot. you cant go to work drunk, same would be the case if pot were legal. stupid people are stupid and theyre going to come to work drunk or high regaurdless of if its legal or not. why do the responsible people deserve to be punished?  we have to stop giving up our rights for the lowest common denominator of society. i used to smoke a lot of pot back in the day, havent touched it in 18 years. why? not because i dont want to but because i cant. i am responsoble for a family and im in one of the most highly regulated industries in the country when it comes to drugs. i think if im responsible enough to have done that then making it legal wouldnt make me run out and drive my truck down the road high

if a person wanted to drink drain-o they could..
maybe there is a law i am unaware of that forbids it?

Quote from: astidham on November 11, 2011, 10:48:44 AM
if a person wanted to drink drain-o they could..
maybe there is a law i am unaware of that forbids it?

well, dang, the cat's outta the bag now...thanks astidham....now I gotta find another way to clean my pipes
(https://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l588/Garyo424/SPEAKNOTSOEASY.jpg)

I also was a child of the 60's - one of my best friends got girl of the year in our senior year of high school & a full 4 year scholarship to a university in mathematics.  She was smoking pot on a regular basis...  I smoked it for about a year 2-3x's a wk when I was going to college.  Another best friend had never tried it & I didn't want to influence her, so I didn't smoke it for the year we were freshman in college - everyone else was smoking it or drinking - we did neither & we had more fun without it.  She got curious so tried it & that was the year we smoked pot along w/all our friends.

The thing I saw, were the drinkers acting holier than thou because they didn't do pot...  they'd get all wild, the girls were falling all over, making fools of themselves - I am thankful I have never been a drinker - more than a couple drinks makes me sick, I don't like the way it makes me feel.  Occasionally at a dinner or special occasion I'll have a glass of wine but don't really even like the taste...

I was married to an abusive alcoholic & I can tell you, it was not pleasant... 

Working in a hospital, especially the ER, I saw countless alcoholics going through DT's - most of the time they were very abusive, hitting & kicking, using foul language, manipulative, I could go on & on...  Many came in on a regular basis via an ambulance (at tax-payers exense)  we'd babysit them until they were sober - offer them treatment but usually they would leave so they could go back to drinking.

Occasionally we'd see heroin & meth addicts - they were pretty messed up, too.  The majority were alcoholics, though.  I realize that many had been in combat & felt compassion for them.  There were some who were serous about getting off alcohol & felt regret about drinking - I'd often get a chance to talk w/them & offer spiritual help - praying w/them if they wanted me to - there were many times we'd both be in tears.

I would much rather see someone smoke or eat marijuana for chronic severe pain or someone who has cancer, etc then see them get hooked on oxyccodone, vicodin, codeine - all legal opiates.  So many patients would be desperate for their prescription of narcotics to be filled - they'd get angry & use abusive speech when they're were told they couldn't get a refill yet.  I have to take motrin & tramadol on a regular basis for chronic pain...  I haven't done marijuana for 40yrs but have often thought that it would probably be better for me than those legal drugs I take.  I'd never do that as I decided long ago it was something I didn't need & Glenn is dead set against it.

Anyway, that's my story & I'm sticking to it  :D

Most people who drink a little too much alcohol become loud, clumsy, stupid, and potential dangerous.

Pot on the other hand is about as debilitating as a cup of coffee, yet millions of folks are "criminals" because they enjoy it.

Anyone who unwinds at the end of the day with a nice single malt (or whatever) while demonizing all the evil pot smokers is a hypocrite.

 

Quote from: dug on November 12, 2011, 09:44:10 AM
Most people who drink a little too much alcohol become loud, clumsy, stupid, and potential dangerous.

Pot on the other hand is about as debilitating as a cup of coffee, yet millions of folks are "criminals" because they enjoy it.

Anyone who unwinds at the end of the day with a nice single malt (or whatever) while demonizing all the evil pot smokers is a hypocrite.

Dug I can not agree with you more!  There in is my problem and many others.  The single nice single malt or a single joint.  I went clean and sober in 1990.  I can not just have one.  Before that the nice docs had me addicted to downers and pain meds.  Most of my friends were addicted to prescription meth.  Good old docs anyway.  Today they are a lot better in most cases getting you down and level after an injury or operation and discharge.  They no longer hand out uppers around here like candy.  Do not know about other areas.       

That said, I can not agree that pot does not effect certain decision making abilities and desires and life time goals in STONERS.  I am not talking to you once in a while smokers but the STONERS.  Nor will I ever agree that alcohol is relativity harmless to people like me.  Some of us are just messed up.  We can not do it.  Hey I have been to the meetings, Hi my name is Rick and I am an alcoholic and addict.  I was lucky I came to terms before I killed someone, destroyed my family worse than I did.

Legal or not legal it stops nothing.  It is up to the person.  I could go out - or start drinking or using right now.  I have control and choose not to.  Will I?  I do one day at a time.  I do know my sobriety is certainly not as fragile as it once was.  And right now I love life and people.  I care for my mental health without alcohol or herb.  I do not carry my addictions on my sleeve.  The 12 Steps helped save me but now is not my crutch.  I got on with life.  By the way, there is life after addiction.    Now help me down off this damned soap box and give me my coffee cup.  Sorry for the out burst man.               

Quote from: dug on November 12, 2011, 09:44:10 AM
Most people who drink a little too much alcohol become loud, clumsy, stupid, and potential dangerous.

Not me! It's been a while but as I recall...I became taller, stronger, faster, wittier, better looking, more charming and invincible! c*

Much like I am in real life, just more so ::) Hmmmm Just going over today's game camera pictures..... I was right ::)

(https://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa57/peternap/wb8.jpg?t=1321149235)

If Marijuana was legal, than growing Hemp would/should be as well.. That's a push for it in my book. I do agree on all of the negatives, but like many have pointed out, making it illegal doesn't do much to slow it down, much like gun laws. Only the law-abiding citizens suffer as they sink into the grasp of the government's control.. Those who don't care still get what they want, and sometimes making it illegal only makes it more enticing for those types.. Dunno, tricky subject..

Thought I'd chime in since I started this thread.

I began my chemical romance in July 1969, right around the time Apollo 11 took off.

Many years later, odd things happened.........my son was born naked and my hair started falling out.

Damn.

Got my poisons down to two now.

Thanks for being civil and having a good debate......


And being honest..........

Oh, btw, I gave it a thumbs up.


sparks

It has been my observation that if a person is prone to over indulgence, it would not matter whether a particular substance was legal to purchase or not, they would procure the object of their fancy and have at it. Weed-pills-meth-alcohol-twinkies-heroin- it doesn't matter.

There will always be the ones that ruin it for the others. Natural selection will eventually weed themselves out, pun intended.

This is my opinion only, if marijuana were legal, there would actually be fewer people addicted to narcotic painkillers. I feel there would be fewer people dr shopping to get the meds (wait, if we could take care of some of our own needs, we wouldn't need the dr's as much).

Decriminalize it, let the people grow it/use it. The marketplace will adjust and rules will be put in place as well as legitmate use testing at the job site.

What I find interesting is this experiment of decriminalization has been going on at the local jurisdiction level and state level for the past few years without a noticeable shift in negative effects.  I have seen prosecutors happy that they can devote more of their time to violent offenders.

I believe that it is not the role of the Federal Government to tell us what to ingest or not to ingest, and the Constitution sitting on my desk doesn't seem to give them that power but does say that if it did not give them that power then they don't have it.

So, for me it's easy:  It's none of their damn business.

On the other hand I do not believe the same applies for the states and that they may, should they choose, make drugs legal.

Frankly, if we truly are "the land of the FREE" then why should we not be FREE to smoke dope?  Shoot Heroine?  Snort Crack (or whatever you do with it).  I think it's dumb to do any of those things though, but I don't beleive I have the right to stop you from doing it.

On the other hand, I believe I do have the right to cause your death via high speed lead poisoning should you choose to rob of of my hard earned fiat dollars so you can buy more drugs (or booze or whatever).

Problem today, I think, is that people want to control others too much -- the right wants to prevent the left from smoking dope and the left wants to prevent the right from preaching gospel (I'm simplifying things here so back off), meanwhile the Libertarians are stuck in the middle  d* ???

James Madison, the 'Father of the constitution' once said: "I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents." 

Which demonstrates that the 'General Welfare' clause does not mean provide welfare to the public in any way shape or form and I'd like to add my own version:

"I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of directing the behavoir, drinking habits or entertainment of their constituents."

How do we handle the dealers handing out free samples to 9 and 10 year olds?

I am just as adament that government not push us around, but I do not have a solution for the above typical problem. It is easy to say that it is the parents responsability, but how many parents can supervise their kids 24/7 and still bring in enough money to feed them.

This of course doesn't address all the issues of overly supervising kids and the results from that.

These are just questions. I have no idea what the right answers are.

Bruce

Quote from: firefoxHow do we handle the dealers handing out free samples to 9 and 10 year olds?

oak tree + rope?  then again .22 bullets are really cheap...  solve it however society wishes to solve it. 

While that is a valid point, if you remove the money, the dealers wont be exactly pushing anymore.  It is far easier for a middle schooler or high schooler to get pot than beer.  There is a reason for that.  Remove that reason and you wont have cartels pushing drugs on 10 year olds. 

Quote from: muldoon on November 16, 2011, 11:05:03 PM
oak tree + rope?  then again .22 bullets are really cheap...  solve it however society wishes to solve it. 

While that is a valid point, if you remove the money, the dealers wont be exactly pushing anymore.  It is far easier for a middle schooler or high schooler to get pot than beer.  There is a reason for that.  Remove that reason and you wont have cartels pushing drugs on 10 year olds.

Amen

I'd also like to add that we handle it the same way we handle the drug dealers who hand out crack and heroine samples to 9 and 10 years olds today....


Seriously, how naive are we?  Making something not-illegal doesn't change what those in the criminal element will do anymore then making it legal.

I'm always amazed at the naivete of American's today -- what, you think because it's illegal for a drug dealer to carry a gun in DC that he won't?  Ever checked the murder rates there?  What?  You think because it's illegal to carry a concealed gun into the liquor store that those wishing to rob it will comply?  Seriously?

Restricting law abiding citizens only takes away their freedom, their liberty, it does nothing to deter the criminal.