I just watched this on You tube from Today Show (11/3)
the original video is on youtube if you can stomach it
http://youtu.be/9WAp5MOd33w (http://youtu.be/9WAp5MOd33w)
Windpower:
I had to take down the follow-up link as it had information that could get someone injured or killed.
This is a disturbing story for many reasons. First, the punishment is excessive, no matter what your views on corporal punishment. Second, the fact that he is a judge is a bit scary; it begs the question: What have been his rulings on punishment? Also, he does not appear to be a bit contrite and has trotted out the time worn phrase" the truth will come out." Well, I have seen the truth and this neanderthal should be immediately relieved of his judgeship and his rulings examined. I am glad that this woman came out with this story and we all should be proud of her.
It is disturbing but times change.
It hasn't been that long ago that it was considered proper discipline.
Remember ???
"Spare the rod and spoil the child"
"You're going to take a trip to the woodshed."
"Go cut a hickory switch."
For those of you old enough...remember the paddle the Principal had?
Thank god times have changed. I found physically or emotionally hurting someone shapes them to be deceitful to avoid the abuse. The only time I used it was once, when a 3 year old son went into the street on his trike; a life and death situation. And it was a firm pat, not physically hurtful. Everything else can be handled with discussion and a grounding or privalage restriction. They even can come up with their own punishment fairly well.
The world is full of dangers and families should be a safe haven not a torture chamber.
Quote from: peternap on November 06, 2011, 04:01:38 PM
Remember ???
"Spare the rod and spoil the child"
"You're going to take a trip to the woodshed."
"Go cut a hickory switch."
For those of you old enough...remember the paddle the Principal had?
Sounds like my dad.
I say bravo to the daughter. She has more balls than I did and she had the video. The continued harassment of her mother and likely herself made it legitimate to release the video in my opinion.
This type of action was a daily occurrence in my family when I was raised.
I was not totally against corporal punishment for very serious offenses, but I did not carry it to the extreme that these power monger control freaks seem to need to do.
My dad's attitude is similar to that of the judge. Not guilty... or not guilty with an explanation...... He was not a government judge but was on a committee of JW judges (elders) and they supersede (per their own self righteousness) and hide their judicial activities from the law of the land so that it does not shed a bad light on their organization.
Once I showed him that I could also deal out the pain, he stopped assaulting me and shortly thereafter I moved out at 17 1/2.
I tolerate him now. He has sent me letters over the years asking what he ever did, as if he didn't know. I ignore them...he knows. I answer generic informational letters sometimes. His biggest concern is that I no longer belong to his religion and won't grovel to get back in. F that.
He's not gone yet. Might he get wind of this posting? Maybe. Do I give a sh-t?. Not really. Will I mourn when he's gone or even go to pay my respects? Not likely unless for the others sake.
Respect is not owed to parents unless they earn it in my opinion. Do me a favor. Try to earn it.
Am I sorry for the Judge or care what happens to him?.... No - I hope he loses his job.
Bravo to a daughter and finally her mother who was strong enough to confront it. I should have been so strong.
I suppose I should be grateful as it changed me from being merely the son of some man to being the beginning of a whole new lineage...... The Alpha...... The King of my own realm.... :)
Glenn:
Thank you for sharing a very personal reaction to that video. I hope we are mostly past that type of "desensitization" of children in modern society. It can leave long-term problems for future trust and empathy with others.
Here's a very interesting video on the chemistry of all this...
http://www.ted.com/talks/paul_zak_trust_morality_and_oxytocin.html (http://www.ted.com/talks/paul_zak_trust_morality_and_oxytocin.html)
Your experience was much worse, but I too got the belt once in awhile and my relationship to my father was never one of shared emotional connection. We never discussed feelings or anything that might show emotion. He wasn't really into it (the beltings), but was living out his model of what it meant to be "tough" and what his boys had to learn the hard way - how "to be a man".
Glen,
Amen to everything you said. We were spanked as children, but not beaten. You will be glad to know that, while I was a police detective, I specialized in child abuse cases and put many of these and worse, neanderthals in jail. Corporal punishment is legal and that is a choice for the parents, but beating a child with a belt for 7 minutes is 1st or 2nd degree child abuse just about anywhere. And, you are absolutely right - Respect must be earned and not just demanded. Take care.
I just told my wife this story and she said - "Wow, you don't need no stinkin' men's group! You have the forum!"
John, I think our parents were raised not to show emotion - seems like everyone I talk to says their parents were the same way. Growing up we didn't talk to our parents or our friends' parents except for a hi or when they were telling you to do or not do something. No one ever hugged. If you were upset about something you just stuffed it. Don't even think about trying to explain your position - that was disrespect...
I tried to show a lot of affection w/my children... they still had & have their problems... Remember when everyone was talking about the "generation gap" & "don't trust anyone over 30?" lol - I'm double that now!
My dad was very hard on my oldest brother but my younger brother kinda skated by. My mom was a lot harder on me than my sister & I ALWAYS got blamed for things they did because I was older >:( My dad was probably too easy on us girls...
No parent is perfect but this guy was WAY out of line!
Times do change but beatings such as what was shown in the video are wrong today and were wrong even when I was a kid.
Spanking was considered proper discipline when I was a kid. Spanking is till considered proper discipline by some. That was not a spanking. That was a beating. That would have been a beating 60 years ago. Spankings occur with a open hand against the butt and they do not go on and on for minutes. I got spanked, most often a swift swat on the rear with an admonition 'don't you ever do that again'.
Quote from: MtnDon on November 07, 2011, 03:17:42 PM
Times do change but beatings such as what was shown in the video are wrong today and were wrong even when I was a kid.
Spanking was considered proper discipline when I was a kid. Spanking is till considered proper discipline by some. That was not a spanking. That was a beating. That would have been a beating 60 years ago. Spankings occur with a open hand against the butt and they do not go on and on for minutes. I got spanked, most often a swift swat on the rear with an admonition 'don't you ever do that again'.
It depends on the part of the country Don.
I was born in the foothills of the Blue Ridge Mountains and the area was 50 years behind the world.
There had been one school for all grades in the county and my Grandfather was the Schoolmaster. The only employee there. He was a very stern disciplinarian!
Of course, my father grew up in that atmosphere. Like John, I used to get the belt from time to time, nothing like the video or Glenns father, but enough to vow never to discipline my children that way. I suspect they wished I did considering some of the creative punishments I came up with ;D.
I knew other kids that would come to school with welts all over them from switches or belts...and it was considered parental prerogative.
Even though we were never able to be in the same room without arguing over something, I loved my father very much. He passed away several months ago and I wish I could go back and change many things.
I guess Dad realized he needed to work on his routine because my younger brother was raised differently.
So yes, the severe beatings were considered acceptable in some places.
When I had my first son, I started to give him an excessive spanking when he was little for some stupid thing, then I stopped and thought, "What the hell are you doing... do you want to be just like that a-hole?".... and I stopped.
I think it is important to find a way to break the cycle of what we learned as a child. We may have been taught that it was proper to do that by an abusive parent, but hopefully we will have sense to stop it.
I am not against corporal punishment if it is a serious offense. Better a painful spanking than allowing a kid to slip into a life of crime if that will stop it. I did have the occasion to turn around some stupid thoughts put into one of my children's heads by one of their peers. One good correction was all it took to stop that. I don't think it should be routine as in the above examples. That ruins the effect of the punishment fitting the crime.
It is possible that we may see young parents who are out of line. It might be well if we kindly asked them where they learned that kind of discipline and offer a gentle word and nudge in the right direction. Maybe we will get poked in the nose. Maybe it will be worth it.
Some asked what good of this type of thread could be? The idea that no good could come of a negative thread is wrong because it can have positive effects If we manage to get one parent to look at themselves and modify their behavior. There is your answer.
Thanks for the comments, everyone. While it looks like it is past the time for respect to be earned from me, I am happy to say that I get more respect than I deserve from my kids, so I guess I wasn't that bad.
Emotional connections backward are more acquaintances and tolerance, such as with my dad... It would be the respect I would offer to a sperm donor.
Yeah... look at Glenn there....fine specimen he turned out to be.... you've really outdone yourself this time..... [waiting]
I am 60 now. I guess I can really hold a grudge.
Our discussions relate to work or things we are doing rather than family matters. Most of us kids would have flattened him if he lifted a finger toward our offspring and he has an unspoken recognition of that. We were a dysfunctional group of 2 boys and 2 girls. Maybe it was caused - maybe it was normal for us.
Shortly after I moved to California I talked them into letting my youngest sister and brother move down with me and my family. I thought a change of environment might do them good, not that I was a prime example of perfection... just near as you can get to it... ::)
They chose to raise their families here, and my oldest sister remained at the homestead though under separate roof and raised her family there.
My mom was pretty well unable to help much though she was on our side as much as she could. We get along well though not extremely close.
.... but ...time does not move backward. It's a one way ticket so we just continue on making the days we want to better than the last.
We settle the things we want to ...ignore the things we don't want to, and just let them drift off into eternity.....wherever that may be.
I had a blend of carrot and stick as a kid. When I was 6, I shot my mom in the ankle with a dried pea, fired from my sling shot in my bunker under the kitchen table. I remember that discipline. I seem to remember the kitchen table flipping back by a tornado and then me getting pulled up in the vortex. It sort of goes gray after that part.
I used the same sort of carrot and stick approach with my kids. So far, so good. (I think).
Clearly going heavy on the stick is a horrible way to raise kids. But I know folks that are way too heavy with the carrot. Those kids are not much better for it.
Moderation in all things. Never spank your kid when you are angry.
I got an occasional swat from my dad - can only remember a couple times, actually - his hand was so big, I'd start laughing & then he'd start laughing. We had our ups & downs, but he was a good father. We got in lots of discussions, w/him usually not agreeing w/me. Started w/the Vietnam war & continued. Finally realized I wasn't gonna change his mind a year or 2 before he died. He made sure we, as a family, had a chance to go camping at many of the national parks, boating & water skiing, he built a pool in the backyard, by hand, that several of the neighbors helped with & we all enjoyed. My sister & I were able to take piano lessons & ballet. We were on the swim team. Just an all-American family.
My mom didn't work, but volunteered a lot for different causes. We always had dinner together at 6 o'clock sharp. Sundays we'd get to sit in the living room & eat so that we could all watch Disney. I got a few slaps across the face for being "sassy" ::) & a couple spankings w/ the back of a hairbrush - now that hurt! But I knew she always loved me. We'd sit at the table playing cards, dominoes or Monopoly as a family. We also went to church every Sunday. My dad taught Sunday school & my mom was the church treasurer.
I loved my parents very much (My mom's been gone since 1998 & my dad since 2008) we didn't always see eye-to-eye, but I knew they loved me & always tried to do the best for their children.
Dad never laid a hand on us.
He never raised his voice.
Didn't have to.
All he did was stare a hole thru to our souls with searching eyes.
Thing is, when a parent is even natured, not ever riled much, when they do get riled, you listen.
You correct yourself.
You strive to fall back in good graces.
Disappointment, or the possibility of, can be a huge deterrent.
Mom, well, seems she was raised in a family of hearing impaired.
Everything loud.
Wayward children was remote volume control.
It was like we were living on the set of full metal jacket.
I think I recall once seeing my sister's face contort like in those clips of jet pilots at mach I, after mom learned of her feeding me a dead fly off the window sill. But memory of events at two is a bit foggy.
Guess you could call her 'firey'.
Never was mushy or huggy.
I'm makin' up for it.
here's some down home squeezin's.....sometimes they're not well received...notice the eyes.
Can't be helped...his fault for comin' within huggin' range...
(https://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l588/Garyo424/downhomesqueezins2.jpg)
I saw the video too. It made me angry, really angry. There is a difference between discipline and using one's child as a channel through which to indulge in power trips, anger, or even rage. Beating a child is really a form of cowardice...expressing itself as bullying.... That was all safely said third person.
Glenn, I bet you learned to never ever let another bully push you around and that facing one head on scares em silly. I know I did. >:(
I do exactly that, Considerations. During the fire of '08 there were many officials who were nice, but the ones who chose not to be nice were afraid to confront me after their initial encounter.
One look at me told them I didn't care if I lived or died but I would not be pushed by them. I didn't have to threaten anyone.
It has carried into my life to where it is not possible for me to work under anyone. I have to be self employed because I will not take any crap from a stuffed shirt on a power trip. I am known for jumping into the middle of a stuffed shirt and pulling some stuffing out. Not physically because most back off as you say. Verbally is usually all it takes to clean their clock as most of them are not tough at all when confronted.
A jobsite bully put his tail between his legs and slumped off when I confronted him and asked him what his problem was, then mentioned that there are a lot of empty mineshafts where I am from. A navy boxer went to jail after starting a fight with me and losing it badly. His beer and dope betrayed him. A drunk went to jail after I took his keys when he pushed another car out from in front of the pumps with his truck because he wanted to fill up.
My dad told me to turn the other cheek when at school - if hit by a bully .... or even kicked in the shins by a girl who liked me....(that really hurt - she wore heavy shoes)..... or when I got home I would get a bigger whuppin' from him. Yup - I took many more beatings from his advice.....but.....
I modified that rule for my kids and told them never to start a fight but if someone else did, immediately finish it for them and be the winner. That worked well.
Fortunately one of the school bullies that picked on me in school died of a drug overdose. I smiled when I heard that. His buddy went to prison and came out to be a good guy, so I hear. I smiled when I heard that too.
I don't look for trouble. I keep my mouth shut when prudent or possible, but don't back off when a confrontation is necessary.
My dad was career service. Retired O-7. Mom never worked (outside the home). My dad never hit us, which seems contrary to the stereotype. He was a true Officer and a gentlemen. He had some pipes, and could let us have it. Because of his rank and accomplishments, I think we were all in awe of him. We rebelled a bit, but over all we all did very well. My oldest brother pushed the envelope in the early 70's, but that was the norm.
His preferred method was "the talk", which consisted of a lecture on choices, as well as stories of officers who made bad decisions. He had a story for every situation. It might be a story about a young Lt. one week or an enlisted guy who screwed up. He was actually quite calm at home. My mom simply threatened calling my dad when we acted up.
In about 1974 my brother was acting up, and dad sent the base MP to pick him up. They pulled up in a jeep and took him away. He was home at dinner with dad. My brother is a doctor now. I guess things worked out. I have a brother who is a PhD engineer. I think the talks must have worked.
I miss my dad.
Different slices of life.
Interesting.
Thanks for posting and please continue with the experiences, those who are so inclined. :)
Timely article:
http://www.cnn.com/2011/11/07/living/effects-of-physical-discipline/
Glenn, I've had close friends in that same situation you describe as yours.
They never talked about it much, but I watched their fathers in action.
I can in no way know that anxiety, hate, and seems like unresolved parental issues.
Good to see you've risen above it.
My bride was also raised in that environment.
One time, years ago now, four decades actually, I raised my voice in anger toward her.
She shrunk back and cringed, putting her hand up to her face, thinking I was going to strike her.
I was so ashamed.
I held her in my arms the rest of the night.
Thing is, and you gotta know this, the pain received in a fist fight hurts, but one learns to eat it like candy.
And I suppose it's the same with an abusive parent.
But I'm sure the anguish from a badly behaved father can inflict more hurt than physical pain ever could.
And, as my bride has told me, does not readily go away.
Keep a fire
Thanks Gary.
I have found it is better to promote peace than pain and suffering.
Now if our countries leaders could just learn from the new improved "us."
Quote from: glenn kangiser on November 08, 2011, 12:23:49 AM
Now if our countries leaders could just learn from the new improved "us."
Quote from: glenn kangiser on November 07, 2011, 09:59:07 PM
I modified that rule for my kids and told them never to start a fight but if someone else did, immediately finish it for them and be the winner. That worked well.
I don't look for trouble. I keep my mouth shut when prudent or possible, but don't back off when a confrontation is necessary.
I think they did...
Mission Accomplished.
What I find interesting is that even with all the coverage, his "Honor" feels he did nothing wrong. Totally unrepentant. The mother actually has expressed regret. A spank in very serious injury threatening situations can greatly a capture a child's attention to the severity of the danger without abusing them. Parents that use the familial relationship claiming they are "disciplining" their child that would be consider an assault or torture by almost every standard are disgraceful.
The SOL (statute of limitations) has run for him to be prosecuted. But there is not usually any SOL for disbarment or quo warranto.
I do not think an apology will be forthcoming....or sincere if it does..... not this type of persons MO.
mmm relationship with fathers- a tough subject
beaten yes - favorite implement - horse whip - reasons usually little or nothing- going to church with dirty hands was one that I remember and meant a note from my mother to excuse me from swimming and sports till the welts disappeared.
The last occurance I simply asking him if was finished yet- old enough and hard enough to ignore the pain
That was a truely liberating day
We never spoke - he never assisted in anything - he was just the grumpy guy that lived in the house
nothing I ever did was good enough.
At 21 bored and had enough of engineering - got offered a job in Spain teaching windsurfing
Mother said yes - father said if I went he'd had have nothing more to do with me- I mentioned that would not change very much
that was a Sunday- I was in Spain on wednesday-
I came back to the UK 9 years later- having had little or no interaction with him- other than attending my first wedding.
Since then I got my carreer back together - the travelling had added both language skills and a positive attitude to live- that got me into the oilfield- engineering with challenges - no boredom
15 years later we still don't really speak -
But he arrives in bogota this week - his first time to visit me in my place of work- he's 76 now
Time we mended our issues !
many have mentioned that generation on generation we try to improve - His "way" although not enjoyable at the time
made me who i am today
an independant thinking person - self reliant and carefull with money- every penny was worked for- every box cart - I had to build myself.
I will endevour to accomplish the same things with my daughter - but in a diferent way- my way- and it won't include the beatings.
Thanks for posting, UK. Mine was the leather belt.
Seems a bit different but a parallel with similar self reliant results and not too much need for a father figure.
I must say my dad did work and provide for us. Got multiple fractures being knocked off a log truck a couple times. Maybe that is why we were not allowed to cross between the TV and him when he was watching without getting it or as in my sisters case pulled across the room by her hair.
I have to say - it was not a constant thing - hard to remember - but often enough it is the major thing we remember about our childhood. Gruffness daily with frequent choice of beating -spanking or yelling. Except my oldest sister. She has blocked out her memories of her childhood and remembers little of it.
.... and yet ... head to church and he was the nicest brother in the world - to the rest of the world.... except possibly those called into the Judicial Committee. There they assumed the role of God's judges here on earth and no question or comment was out of line.
Funny how God would choose a man who could not properly take care of his own house to judge others.... or was it god? I have been able to see through it for quite a while. Self righteousness makes it easy to set yourself up above others...
Oh yeah... last time of major consequence anyway....
I must have done some little thing and was getting violently pulled and jerked out of my bedroom into the living room for a whupping with a belt...maybe about 15YO or a bit more?....
I decided since I was going to get it anyway, I may as do something that I deserved it for... I grabbed onto a roll away bed folded up just past the door. This made him brace himself, loosen a little then get ready for a violent ripping pull backward to jerk me loose from my grip on the bed, or tear my fingers off - whichever happened first. There was no thought of consequences. At the very time he jerked me backward I let loose and pushed with my feet and legs against the bed as hard as I could. This sent him flying backward along with me and smashing into the upright piano a few feet behind him in the living room.
I had timed it perfect and he sat there holding his side..... don't know if he busted any ribs but it was significant.
I waited for the smashing but it never came. I think he was re-evaluating future events.
After that the main thing I remember was getting kicked in the ass as I was adjusting the carburetor on the saw. He said they didn't even let them do it at his work... likely he did not know how to do it and screwed it up?
The routine ones - I don't remember that well.....
My father had a set of horse rains that had worn-out at the bit. He doubeld them over in the middel and passed the loop back threw to make 4 straps about 18" long. He would make you drop your pants and underware down around your ankles and then grab you by the left upper arm and lift you up so as you where on you tiptoes and go to town. Trust me you did not want to go to the woodshed when your dad gets home.
I'm positive it was a technique he was taught as a child.
We only had one child, a son that is now 45 years old. I never ever gave him a beating but I did spank him several times. I'll bet you could count the spankings on one hand. He is a fine man and we love and respect each other.
My Dad has been gone for 18 years and I miss him.