If you have decent water pressure, and are able to, get on of those on demand water heaters. We just stayed with some friends, and they had one, and it is so sweet. Just a little more than a regular one too.
Funny you should mention that. I had one sitting on the front porch just waiting to be installed.
It is the Bosch Aquastar 125 HX LP
Many stores don't stock all the models and even dealers seem to be at a loss as to which models have what.
The reason I mention this is that I have a new 125 HX NG sitting here also because the literature wasn't clear online as to which models had the built in generator ignition. I turns out that the NG is natural gas and the LP is propane and both have the generator ignition -there is also a FX which is fan powered exhaust for horizontal venting applications.
After calling in to Bosch the dealer told me that the generator ignition was only available on the NG - not true - the LP came with it and it works great. Now I have a UPS dinged (small dent) new NG to sell but at least have my LP model. Note that there is not an easy switch available from NG to LP. All of the major parts are different- not just jets.
I installed it today - legal for "0" clearance even on combustible walls- it simply hangs on two screw/nail hooks provided with the unit. Sheetrock requires a backer board of wood and a spacer to level it to support it on the studs. Hanger spacing is 13 1/4". It will supply 2 minor fixtures or 1 major one at a time.
Here is the unit with the cover off.
(https://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d184/glennkangiser/3c66.jpg)
Here are the guts-- the generator - no wiring to do just hook up the gas and water lines. This thing wants a 3/4 gas line up to 40' -1/2 up to 10 feet - over the 40' they want 1" line. I wanted the generator model as a pilot burns est. close to $100 propane per year at todays rates. This heater takes a 5" vent below 2000' elev. 6" above 2000' elevation. I'm not currently running one as it vents into my greenhouse and the plants like the CO2----If I had many plants there.
(https://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d184/glennkangiser/11a6.jpg)
Here is the unit with the cover on and incandescent particle shield -I think that means spark catcher- on the bottom. A little on and off with the water to reset the pilot and purge air along with an adjustment or two of the heat control knob and things were working great. Test for leaks with soapy water before lighting up.
(https://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d184/glennkangiser/7eb2.jpg)
This company makes a system that feeds 8.5 gallons of hot water. Enough for 3 showers at the same time they claim.
http://www.foreverhotwater.com/
Features:
Whole house continuous hot water system
Up to 8.5 GPM of endless hot water - never run out of hot water
Thermal efficiencies up to 88%; Energy Factors (EF) up to 0.87
Remote water temperature control
Space saving, compact size
Output temperature can be adjusted to provide specific water temperatures for home, schools, nursing homes, etc.
Maintenance/diagnostic codes are displayed on the remote controls simplifying service calls
Direct electronic ignition (no standing pilot)
Very low noise level
Safe, low voltage remote controls
All parts are replaceable
Life Expectancy of 20+ years
Residential warranty: ten years heat exchanger, five years all other parts
Commercial/space heating warranty: five years all parts
Safety Devices:
Flame rod indicates flame failure
Over heat sensor activates at 194° F
Boiling protection switch activates at 203° F
Thermal fuses activate at 264° F
Built-in freeze protection to -30° F
Combustion fan rpm check indicates blocked flue or intake vents
Power supply is protected by two 3 amp glass fuses
Surge protector in line with power supply
http://www.foreverhotwater.com/products.shtml
(http://www.foreverhotwater.com/img/heater_diagram.jpg)
Or if it looks to you like gas (natural or propane) is going to be in short supply, but oil or kerosine will be more plentiful--Toyotomi makes a kerosene powered one--no minimum pressure listed, they've never answered my email to ask if it didn't matter--at a guess that means the same 20 psi that everyone asks for (artesian well, pressure pump--probably the most reasonable--or a 40 foot tower or hill behind the house)
http://www.houseneeds.com/shop/HeatingProducts/WaterHeating/toyotomi/toyotomi-water-heater-mainpage.htm
same pictures, but here's toyotomi's web site:
http://www.toyotomiusa.com/products/WaterHeaters.html
They do seem to use nearly 100 watts of electricity while burning. Interesting.
Glenn, how does the Aquastar look for DIY maintenance... cleaning, changing filter(s), descaling??
Checking the book, Bart -
Check vent annually -clean and repair as needed
Water Valve - lubricate w/ silicone or lithium grease every 2 years
3 to 5 years replace component part 36 -appears to be a part of the water valve . Frequency depends on mineral content and conditions of use.
Periodically check water inlet filter.
LP pilot may need to be replaced if not a blue flame.
Main burners if not blue flame may be dirty - contact a gas service person it says.
Operated at low temperature it does not accumulate scale but at high temp heat exchanger may need descale but must be done by itself - damage could result to other parts.
I think I could do most of the maintenance myself.
The book has a very good troubleshooting setion.
Cool, sounds like a reasonably well-designed appliance.
Updated report on Aquastar -used it a few days now -
Excellent - easily keeps up with our shower and bathroom sink at the same time with water coming in quite cold -maybe 45 or 50 degrees -out can be excessively hot - I will reset it lower, which also prevents scale buildup. Water on first generates electricity with the micro-turbine sparking similar to an electronic ignition gas range. This lights the pilot -similar to a normal pilot which when sensed as being OK then lights the first two burners-again sensed as being OK then the rest of the burners light. Time for hot water to the fixture is similar to time with a normal hot water heater and it doesn't change or run out until you are out of gas or water.
Glen,
why don't you recommend electric Tankless Heaters at all? What is wrong with them? I'm currently looking for my Tankless Heater system and was thinking of buying a Stiebel Eltron system until I read your suggestions. What kind of Gas tank are you using for your Aquastar?
I will heat my house with wood and will use for my workshop a monitor heater or something similar. So I was not planning to go and add a Gas fired Tankless Heater?!?!
Jochen
Electric heaters can't put as many BTUs into the water stream as the propane units. They can be fine for single fixture water heating - a sink or shower - but not for use in a house where you might have two or more fixtures wanting hot water at the same time.
Here's a chestnut from the old forum: http://www.countryplans.com/bbs/messages/3190.html
(http://www.instanthotshowers.com/gfx/magnum_small.jpg)
Jochen, the electric water heater takes more power by itself than your whole house takes - you would have to double your house service size, I run my Aquastar on propane. They are also available for natural gas.
The 50 or 75 amp Stiebel Eltron will barely keep up with a single fixture if the water is cold.- Actually the 50 won't keep up with a shower unless you keep the flow low. Go to the hundred or more and you are using as much electricity as the whole house. Granted it is not on often but consider that you may have to have a larger transformer - much bigger entrance cable - double size electric panel and pay the power co.
An internet acquaintance--single woman in a condo in New Jersey or somewhere--just loved her electric demand heater. It supplied her whole unit, gave her much needed storage where the 40-gallon unit it replaced sat, lowered her electric bill fairly dramatically. Etc.
Doesn't mean it would be good for--more than one person, water coming straight out of the well (might be a bit of pre-heating from the way up to her second story unit), off-grid. Especially the last.
Rec'd an interesting e-mail from a dissatisfied Bosch user when I advertised on the local classifieds.
We have had no trouble with our Bosch HX125 LP, but this person was unhappy. I don't know what model they had.
I am just putting this here for information to consider.
---- Original Message ----
From: wilkinson
To: glennk
Subject: Enquiry about "Bosch HX125 NG"
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 09:52:09 -0700
>Bosch is junk. I bought one and have had nothing but trouble. Their
>
>customer service is the worst.
>
>Just thought I might save you the grief I have had.
>
-----Original Message-----
From: Glenn Kangiser
Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2008 8:49 AM
To: wilkinson
Subject: RE: Enquiry about "Bosch HX125 NG"
Thanks for the information. I appreciate it. I haven't had a problem
with the LP one I bought but I have heard that Rinnai or Toyo may be
better.
Glenn
From: wilkinson
Subject: RE: Enquiry about "Bosch HX125 NG" Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 09:55:55 -0700
To: <glennk
I have had two thermocouples go out. One, two weeks after installation and
the other a year later. Bosch identified the problem the first time but it
took months to get a replacement as they kept lying to me and saying that
they were shipping it out tomorrow (1 + hour on the phone each time I
called). The second time they did not want to send me another one claiming
that the t-couples never went out (ha!). After I insisted they did send one
and it is still working nearly a year later.
Good Luck
Although just like any product there are some that are defective. Just like automobiles. Someone could have one exactly like yours and it is constantly breaking down while yours is trouble free. It is a shame that our life is built around money. We often settle for the least expensive model when in fact we would rather have the better one. d*
I have found one of the Bosch service stores who went out of their way to warranty a repair on one of my Rotohammers while I waited so I have no problem with them myself. Possibly that is the answer- deal with a good service store if possible.
The past few months we have found that the pot on the wood stove provides us with more than enough hot water
(https://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q75/djmillerbucket/jemez%20mountain%20property2/mini-P1000463.jpg)
I have yet to determine a method to easily pipe it to the shower though. ???
Sorry, I'm just feeling devilish tonight. ;D
Say Don,
I like your low tech approach there. If you have a loft above the shower, you could carry the hot water up to the loft, pour it into a container with a hose going down to the shower with an on off valve attached.
Some neighbors around my cabin use this method.
Have you seen the Zodi showers? If not, go to www.zodi.com
Hal
Thanks Hal. The pot works amazingly well for most warm/hot water needs. We've also cooked on the wood stove. We have a tea kettle we also usually have sitting there. In the morning with some new wood and the draft turned high they both usually reach a rolling boil.
Next spring/summer I'll be finishing off the plumbing and will be using an RV water heater under the kitchen sink. It will supply water for washing up as well as a shower. A simple RV water pump provides water to the fixtures.
It's a pilot light model. In years of RV'ing we've found we have plenty of hot water with just the pilot burning; of course, that's with us working in water conservation mode.
FYI, in warm weather if we go away for a few days and leave the water heater on pilot, the water gets to be too hot to comfortably touch on our return.
Before investing a lot of $$$ in a tankless heater, make sure that the manufacturer will warranty the unit in your area. I was told two years ago that Rennai (sp?) will not warranty tankless heaters for my zip code. Something to do with the high alkalinity of the water I think.
-f-
The alkalinity has gotten worse over the past couple decades. :( At least where I am / water system we're on.
that's good Don. You could do like we did in New Hampshire when we ran out of propane, heat the water, then bathe in a plastic tote in front of the fire. The kids laughed their butts off to see me sitting in a tote in the kitchen washing, but it did the trick! somehow felt more natural too, to not be in a separate place.