I split this off from my cabin thread as I thought it might be more useful, more easily located, etc. if it was a stand alone.
Those who have followed this thread and the various other threads of mine may recall I efforts to make storing of canned foods viable through the freezing winter weather. Active measures encountered issues.
We have decided to try storing these items underground; deep enough to get below the frost depth. We had an old, now unused, playground tube slide. There was a seven foot long x 24 inch diameter, straight, bright yellow, ½" thick polyethylene tube. We dug a 6 foot deep hole beside the shed and sunk the tube vertically.
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The digging of the hole took about 4 hours. Most of the distance was through the pumice field. It is nice stuff to dig; hard enough to require metal bladed tools and some effort to disturb, it is compacted enough to stay in place. It also drains extremely well.
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More details on this as I build the framework to enclose the upper end.
I boxed in a framework around the tube top. We filled that with pumice and some dirt then capped it all off with the cutout from the old slide.
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Then I used some of the old redwood 1x4 and 1x6 to dress it up and hide the bright yellow polyethylene sheet.
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I placed it at a slight angle. Helps hide the fact that somehow I didn't quite get the frameworl square. ;D
Next is to complete the lid. More on that later.
Update on the refrigerator venting. That has worked out superbly! Now when we arrive at the closed up cabin after an absence it is not hot inside. In fact it can be a touch cool. We'd rather have it cooler than hotter. So we are quite pleased with the results of that endeavor.
Have you taken any pit temperatures yet? It should be constant year round. With all your energy and ingenuity I see a heat pump in the near future,,,
No temps yet. I had planned on dropping the remote sensor from a indoor/outdoor thermometer down the hole. to take above and below grade readings. However some mouse/chipmunk/squirrel decided to chew off the wire in the last place I used it and I have not replaced it. Maybe I'll use the infrared "pistol" next week after I get the lid completed and in place for a little time.
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The food locker received most of its finishing touches. Here's the lid that has three layers of 1" R5 foam. It's hinged for access. I used a layer of Reflectix bubble/foil insulation as a layer to more or less air seal the lid to tube joint.
I measured the temperature several times over the week. It was running 56 to 57 degrees F near the bottom.
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The canned goods will be lowered into the storage tube inside 4 inch ID sewer pipe. This is the thinwall type with a full 4 inch ID. The top end of each tube has a ¼" bolt with locknut as a handle. The bottom end has a bolt but is fitted with a wing nut. This is the end the canned goods will be stored and retrieved through.
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I rigged a pair of sliding EMT tubing for a "pulley" bar. Lifting the tube in and out by hand proved to be slightly awkward. This should make the loading and retrieval easier. One end is affixed to the shed the other to a tree. The slip joint allows the tree to sway in the wind.
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I am also cutting a foam board plug to insert above the storage tubes. The tubes, btw, are 6'6" long.
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I have planned a pair of rods to be inserted in an "X" shape to help divide and hold the tubes in some sort of order.
The winter non freezing food storage locker is just about done. I have only to make a few more tubes and then load things up.
I made a plug for the tube top. Three one inch layers of blue foam. The center disc is cut smaller and fitted with a bicycle inner tube as an air seal device. The tube stem fits into a hole marked by the double hash marks. Hardboard panel top and bottom of the sandwich, held together with 3/16 bolts that pass through the sandwich. I made it at home; no glue in case I messed up. But I didn't.
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I also installed a divider in the main tube; 1/4" threaded rod.
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With the plug in place for about 36 hours the IR thermometer now reads 65 - 66 F at the bottom instead of the earlier 57-58 F. We'll see what we have in Dec, Jan, Feb, March.
Note: We don't normally eat a lot of food that comes in tin cans. But for our winter situation and not wanting to carry in a lot of food by snowshoe I believe we finally have a very workable solution.
Hmmmm... good way to keep beer from freezing too!
Where was that thread about foods that are okay even if they do freeze? I am keeping more food at my cabin and want to review that list.
(edited)... AHA... here http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=7613.0
Nice, Don. I can't wait to see how this experiment works. (Of course, I fully expect you to modify it with a hand cranked worm screw to lift and lower food shelves before long! ;D )
Looks like a winner - I'm looking forward to seeing how it works, too. As always, very meticulous & nicely explained w/pics & narrative [cool]
Great idea!
I love projects like that!
Cool project, Don.
I was wondering how you would keep the cold from sinking to the bottom making it into a permanent freezer. I once crawled into a permanent Ice Cave in Oregon. [cool]
I mean..cold.... [waiting]
I've visited ice caves too. That is a concern, hence the plug.
We loaded up twelve tubes this weekend. Each tube has the non freezable canned foods for a two day weekend.
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Not all bottle brands will fit, but I did discover the Stella Artois will just slip in with a mini of Bailey's alongside.
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Once the tubes were loaded they had numbered tags added and then lowered in place.
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There's room for more. We will be adding some extra supplies "just in case".
Kind of like a mini Nuclear reactor...... Don's loading up his fuel rods....
Hmmmm. Something about that very first picture in this thread reminded me of the movie "Caddyshack".
The bottom is the dirt?
Pumice. El Cajete Pumice to be precise. We sit on a ridge of the stuff with a view of the old caldera where it came from. Undisturbed for 50-60,000 years, give or take. Drains really well if it gets wet which should not happen here. Distance to the water table is something like 500+ feet more than likely.
Quote from: glenn kangiser on September 05, 2011, 03:41:55 PM
Kind of like a mini Nuclear reactor...... Don's loading up his fuel rods....
Bad design. The half-life of Stella is less than one weekend at my place. I better run another test Saturday. ;D
Keep us posted... hate to see you have a power shortage.... [waiting]
Have you considered the Ripple effect? [noidea'
Quote from: Native_NM on September 07, 2011, 11:22:43 PM
Bad design. The half-life of Stella is less than one weekend at my place.
??? I think the short half life is more desirable than a long half life such as would be achieved with something like Bud Light in cans. ;D
The Baileys can stand the freezing though. Tests in the home freezer have been conducted. The minis freeze but the plastic bottles do not break. The thawed out Bailey's is every bit as palatable as the never frozen sample that was the control. Test was performed twice to be sure. Odd little thing: Bailey's Minis are a better buy than a regular sized bottle. Walgreens has best local price.
Freeze tests have been performed on several products in plastic containers; ketchup, maple syrup and olive oil exhibit no problems. Simply warm and use. Mayo does not like to be frozen, it separates after thawing. Irish whiskey and Scotch do not freeze.
I have space for a few select bottles of wine. Or maybe some Two Buck Chuck. ??? I have discovered that box wine may freeze but does not seem to suffer any ill effects. Not sure, so further tests will be performed. ;D Black Box is pretty good and a couple boxes will last the winter. I like their Cabernet Sauvignon.
Dried apricots and apple slices, raisins all do not seem to suffer when left in the cabin cupboards through the winter.
Is there any insulation other than the pumice around the tube below the wood platform where it sticks out from the earth?
When I looked at that first picture, I realized that something was missing, you should have a K-Bar in your teeth, a .45 auto in one hand and a flashlight in the other.....Tunnel Rat!
Semper Fi!
Nicely thought out and very creative. Well done
Quote from: Squirl on September 08, 2011, 06:41:16 AM
Is there any insulation other than the pumice around the tube below the wood platform where it sticks out from the earth?
Just pumice full of air bubbles. Most of it floats.
It's a "bad design" in the context of using Stella as the fuel rods for a mini reactor. The fuel source would not last very long at my place. ;D Sometimes humor is not clear on the Internet. It's a great design all around, and very creative. Ten more holes and some copper tubing and you are in heat pump territory. Nice job.
I caught on to the meaning very quickly. :D I visited the birthplace of Stella Artois in Leuven, Belgium a number of years ago.
Don, what is your numbering system? Did you write down all the numbers on a notepad with the contents of each tube? I'm very curious how this 'freeze-proof' storage will work.
I remember stopping near a historic homestead near Cherokee, NC and they had a 'springhouse'... folks would build a shed over a spring-head, dig a hole that would fill with cold spring water, and use it to chill edible items....once the hole filled the spring water simply kept flowing downstream along its path.
Spreadsheet.
Left hand column lists all the different canned goods. The tubes are divided into four groups. Each group has three tubes for a total of twelve. Each of the three tubes within the group have the same contents, except for a couple small variations. Each tube will serve two people 2 days.
Group one has tubes 1, 5, 9. Group two has tubes 2, 6, 10, Group three is 3, 7, 11 and Group 4 tubes 4, 8, 12.
Used in numerical order they provide variety. So if we stay 6 days in a row we don't get any repeats.
Here's the top section of the spreadsheet ti illustrate. "B" denotes used for breakfast, "L" lunch, etc.
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The extras column will be in a tube of its own. Brown bread is B&M brown bread in cans. There may be some other things added there in another tube. And a tube with a few beer.
The next section down the page lists all the dry foods that we leave in the cabin. The items that are to be used with each tube have check marks by them.
mashed potatoes
spaghetti
wide noodles
penne noodles
brown basmati rice
Macaroni & cheese dinner
grated Parmesan cheese
olive oil, extra virgin
olive oil, light
Marie Callendar corn bread mix
Kinnickkinnick bread mix
Stuffing mix
Scalloped potatoes, dry
Pamela's Pancake Mix
Pamela's Brownie Mix
Ketchup
maple syrup
In the third section down the page I list the few things that we will pack from home to complete the meals. Things like...
Daiya cheddar cheese
meat balls
Nathans hot dogs
Margarine, small container
Veganaise, small container
celery stalk, green onion
broccoli or zucchini
A print copy is in the cabin, plus a copy at home.
Things not included (missed) on those lists: oatmeal, cream of wheat cereal, grits, egg powder for bread, flour, salt, brown sugar, dried apple slices, apricots..... These all proved to suffer no discernible harm when frozen.
Dang, there was something else I forgot and now I forget what it was. d*
Oh yeah! Milk. My tests have shown no harm if milk in the aseptic containers (Horizon organic and/or Rice Dream rice milk) is frozen and thawed, even repeatedly. So we have a stock of the 8 ounce sizes in the cabin, in addition to a couple of quart sizes for our planned Christmas break week stay.
Once we shut the fridge down I load all those into the fridge. It seems to keep slightly warmer in there than in the cupboards.
Note: Once there is snow or it's just cold enough to freeze quart bottles of water overnight if left ourside, we use jars of snow or frozen quarts of water to keep fresh foods, milk, cool in the freezer compartment. The first winter we used a snow bank, but its more convenient to use the freezer as a fridge and replenish the snow/ice once or so a day.
It's a very clever idea. I think I'd have to bury something like that in a berm. There's a fair amount of water close to the surface around here. I've built up my long term stores again, but not taken steps to seriously hide them, just critter proofed and locked up.
Added a home made pulley to make the lifting out of a tube easier
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Three plywood layers; 1/2, 3/4, 1/2
Its a good idea. Thats the same principle as was used for our outdoor horse waterer to keep the supply line from freezing in wi. Water line was 6' deep, at the elbow where it turned up to the fountain it traveled up the center of a 6" pipe. The heat from the bottom of the hole traveles up to keep it from freezing. It worked untill temps got to about -10. When id have to drop a light bulb down the hole.
So far, so good!! Over the two weeks since our last visit to the cabin the temperature dropped to -2 degrees one night. There have also been several nights that saw the nighttime temperatures fall into the "teens". We just returned from 4 1/2 days at the cabin. We had to snow shoe in. We found the temperature in the food tube to be 44 F. I pulled two tubes for our meals. We had more than enough food as I had neglected to take left overs from the dinners into account when planing the menu. d* The left overs made for a good lunch the next day.
Thanks for the update. Great to see it worked.
Excellent information Don. I was very curious to see how this would work out.